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Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 7 Dec 2023

United Kingdom Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023: Discussion

I welcome our guests online. We have two engagements today. The first is with representatives of Relatives for Justice. We have Professor Bill Rolston, chairperson; Claire Hackett, vice chairperson; Irati Oliega Aiesta, legacy caseworker; and Mark Thompson, CEO.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome the witnesses to today's meeting.

Before we begin, I must explain parliamentary practice regarding references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice. Witnesses are asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings should be given and should respect directions given by the chair and parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I call Professor Rolston to make his opening statement.

Professor Bill Rolston

We thank the committee for today’s invitation and for its steadfast work in promoting and protecting the Good Friday Agreement, GFA, including its work towards realising the full potential of the agreement by seeking its full implementation. Against the backdrop of almost four decades of violence in which over 3,600 people lost their lives and tens of thousands were physically and psychologically injured, the GFA was finally signed. This was welcomed by the majority of those who bore the brunt of the violence - those bereaved and injured. The GFA heralded a new era, not least one of hope. The agreement made provisions for rights, equality, justice and much more.

The signing of the Human Rights Act 1998 as an integral part of the agreement incorporated into domestic law the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR. This, largely along with the ending of violence, provided bereaved relatives with a space to reflect and an agency to seek redress. It provide a human rights-based framework hitherto denied. Such agency enabled families to use the law, assert their rights and seek justice. It signalled a potential end to impunity and in 2010, the appointment of an Attorney General further added to that rights framework.

In the two and half decades since the signing of the GFA, the UK response to legacy issues - outstanding issues of truth and justice arising from the conflict - has been shameful. Overall, its approach is self-serving. It has deliberately frustrated due process and flouted law.

In respect to its own role in the conflict, the UK has determined a policy of denial, delay and obfuscation. Paralleling this has been the systematic destruction of evidence by state authorities and the deliberate withholding of resources in order to thwart justice. The use or, rather, misuse of the term "national security", public interest immunity certificates and even secret courts - what are called call "closed material procedures" - that lock out families and their legal representatives in civil cases are all a regular occurrence. The result is that matters drag on for decades while relatives wait for justice.

The arbitrary insertion of a national security veto by the UK after the signing of the Stormont House Agreement on legacy was typically in keeping with that approach. It was described by the then Minister for Justice, Charlie Flanagan, as a "smothering blanket of national security". It was there to conceal evidence. We now know that as the Stormont House Agreement was being negotiated, the Northern Ireland Office, NIO, was secretly depositing in archives at Kew Gardens files relating to controversial killings by the British army with orders prohibiting their release for decades. Some related to the killings of children by plastic bullets. Such sleight of hand is commonplace and was evident in the passage of the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill when Lord Caine made amendments on inquests once he realised coroners had made efforts to expedite hearings to ensure completion before the law became fully operational. His amendment ensured the majority of inquests will never be completed.

The UK Government claims that the current system does not work, takes far too long and does not deliver the right outcomes, including that there is no agreed way forward on legacy. It says, therefore, that its legacy Bill is a new departure but this is an exercise in breathtaking hypocrisy. In reality, the UK is a bad faith actor with vested interests. With the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill now enacted into law, the UK has simply amalgamated all of the underhand tactics used against families seeking accountable justice into one Act and one body, the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery, ICRIR, which is anything but independent.

It is our view that the Act breaches Articles 2 and 3 of the ECHR and hollows out key provisions within and directly related to the GFA. It sounds like a lot but I will provide the committee with 12 bullet points that itemise our issues with the legislation. The ICRIR will not conduct Article 2-compliant investigations but rather will perform desktop reviews. Families will have no input save for victim impact statements, which, in truth, have no standing. Families will not be afforded rights of representation. There will be no openness or transparency. All matters of review will be conducted in secret. Families may not even be told if an individual responsible for and-or involved in the killing of their loved one has applied for and been granted immunity or amnesty. Once amnesty is granted, there can be no investigation even if this Act is repealed at a later stage. A British secretary of state will have ultimate control as the Act confers all key powers on his or her office. This includes determining who is granted amnesty or immunity and who is not and which cases are to be prioritised and reviewed. Reviews will not examine thematic patterns and linked cases. The Act imposes a legal obligation on the ICRIR that it must grant immunity from prosecution when a person has requested such immunity, where the person has "provided an account which is true to the best of their knowledge and belief" and where the panel is satisfied the conduct described would appear to expose the person to prosecution for one or more serious Troubles-related offences. The threshold for obtaining immunity, therefore, is quite clear and arguably constitutes an amnesty. In this regard, the Act disapplies the terms of the GFA in respect of sentencing within a court of law of a person found to have been convicted for a conflict-related offence. One of the main stated objectives of this Act is to protect British soldiers from investigation.

Last week, the challenge by families against this Act concluded in the High Court in Belfast. Arguably, this is the single most important legal challenge in decades. Once judgment is delivered, whichever side loses, will inevitably appeal and thereafter it will again be appealed to the UK Supreme Court. This will take considerable time over the coming years. Only then can this matter go to the European Court of Human Rights, ECHR. This is time families cannot afford. The age profile of relatives means that many will die waiting. The heartache and additional harms continue causing intergenerational trauma, torturing families whose lives have been turned upside down and who have been failed time after time. The sweeping and systematic breaches within this Act with respect to the ECHR, the GFA and the Human Rights Act, which affect all victims, place a responsibility on the Irish Government to act. Having patiently and in good faith tried every conceivable diplomatic effort to avoid the passing of this Act by the British Government, we believe there is only one position left and that is for the Irish Government to initiate an interstate case challenging the Act.

Expediting the case to Strasbourg is also a humanitarian issue. Many leading legal experts believe such a challenge would be successful. We acknowledge that ultimately, this is a political decision. It would have widespread support here and internationally. The British Labour Party has committed to repealing the Act if it is to come to power in the next British general election. Taking an inter-state case would certainly add to ensuring that this commitment would be honoured.

There is an attempt through this Act to extinguish the rights that flow from and hopes envisaged in the Good Friday Agreement. Collectively, we should all play a role in ensuring those rights are assured and hope remains. Families, NGOs, lawyers, academics, civil society and countless others, including this distinguished committee, are all playing their part. Families will never give up. As a signatory and guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement and the Stormont House Agreement, it is time for the Irish Government to once again play its part.

I thank Professor Rolston for his opening remarks.

I neglected to say that because we have until 11 a.m. for this session of the meeting, the rotation will be Sinn Féin, Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, SDLP, Independents and so on. As people identify themselves online as they come in, we will give names to that rotation. I understand Mr. Finucane is the first speaker for Sinn Féin. I appreciate his attendance and ask him to keep his contribution to ten minutes.

Mr. John Finucane

I thank the Chair. I also thank Professor Rolston, Mr. Thompson, Ms Hackett and Ms Aiesta for their attendance today. It is important. I will take some time at the start to thank them for the work they have been doing in this area for decades. I say that as someone who has benefited personally from it and as someone who lives in the community of Belfast and is aware of the work that is unfortunately needed now as much as ever.

The Chair said I have ten minutes. I would like to explore three areas with the witnesses. First, the committee has done a tremendous amount of work in this parliamentary term, from the time Brandon Lewis made a statement in the House of Commons and the command paper was published, to the passage of the legislation. Unfortunately, we are now dealing with the Legacy Act and no longer the legacy Bill. I throw it open to any of the witnesses to comment on the impact the passage of that legislation has had on families.

Professor Bill Rolston

Mr. Thompson knows about this on a day-to-day basis.

Mr. Mark Thompson

Yes. It has had a tremendous and incalculable impact. It has retraumatised families. I will go through some figures I asked our senior team for in preparing for this meeting to give some environmental context on the scope of the work we do. We employ 24 full-time staff and are currently recruiting four more staff to bring our complement to just under 30. In addition, we have more than 20 staff who are contracted in on a sessional basis. That includes two clinical psychologists, a team of a dozen trauma counsellors and some complementary therapists who deal with anxiety and stress. We are registered with the appropriate health authorities and accredited to provide counselling and psychotherapy as a centre of excellence. In the past year - I will correct the figure in our opening statement; I was corrected last night - we supported 4,900 people. I will give a sense of a few things. We deliver support from several sites across the North and remote support is given across the island and these islands for people who have been impacted and have left the North. To give a sense of it to the committee, since the Bill came about and became the Act it is now, there has been a total increase of referrals for mental health support of 310%; the total increase in suicidal ideation has been 600%; and waiting lists for counselling and psychotherapy went from six weeks to eight months. This is not a trend that is unique to Relatives for Justice which supports victims. It is happening for all groups in the sector. Most people cite the fact that hope has been taken away. People were asked and encouraged out by many initiatives from Eames-Bradley, to Haass-O'Sullivan, to the Police Ombudsman's office, to the Historical Enquiries Team and all such agencies. Then there was hope about the criminal justice system with the devolution of criminal justice and policing and the appointment of an attorney general. There are thousands of cases. The ombudsman had more than 450 cases that met the grave and exceptional threshold and warranted investigation which constitute slightly more than 500 killings; some 1,100 civil actions were lodged in the court; there are up to 40 inquests and applications for approximately 60 inquests with the attorney general; more than 1,300 cases sit with the PSNI's legacy investigation branch, LIB; and that continues. That will give the committee a flavour. The shutters have effectively come down on all of those - they are finished - and that has left families in crisis and retraumatised.

Families describe it as a form of torture. This is what we call additional harms on top of harms. Families who were bereaved and people who were seriously injured were promised justice using the mechanisms provided through the peace process, the Good Friday Agreement and the rule of law to seek remedy and accountability. That has now been taken away in one sweep. We sit in a jurisdiction in a western democracy and in part of it families whose loved ones have been murdered have no remedy whatsoever. That is having a huge traumatic effect on families, including anxiety, trauma, suicidal ideation and mental health problems. The repercussions of this Bill are hugely significant. It is a hidden aspect of this. We focus on dealing with the Bill, but the impact on families in their homes is colossal.

Mr. John Finucane

Yes. Understandably, I imagine today's two sessions will deal a lot with the legislation and how the challenge has proceeded and what can possibly be done, but it is important to remember in all this there is a tremendous burden, to put it lightly, on many families across society. It is important that what they are facing is on the record.

In the context of the legal case, I would like to explore the witnesses' view of how the opening session went. I am pressed for time. It dovetails well into what Mr. Thompson said about the burden families face. The opening statement notes this is time families cannot afford. On 15 November, Reuters reported an interview with the Taoiseach, Deputy Leo Varadkar, commenting on the inter-state case in which he stressed that the initiation of an inter-state case would be a significant step and would have to be taken on solid ground. He said it would not be taken lightly. He went on to say:

Based on the attorney general's advice, there is a period during which we can take a case and after which it becomes more difficult. So we will have to make a decision on this in the next few weeks.

I would like to hear the witnesses' views on that.

In case, I do not get time to ask a further question, I will ask it now. There were 12 observations on and criticisms of the legislation. There are some who will say it is amendable. That voice may come from those currently in power on either side of the Irish Sea. I wonder what the witnesses would say about the legislation. Can it be fixed by amendment and what is the alternative? My two pronged question is about the importance of an inter-state case and the urgency of coming to a decision about it; and any comments the witnesses have about the possibility of amending and thus perfecting the legislation. Subject to correction from the Chair, I think the committee wrote to the Attorney General when the legislation was in Bill form urging him to consider taking an inter-state case.

Mr. Mark Thompson

I will jump in quickly on the question of whether the Bill is salvageable or redeemable. I quote the chief commissioner of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission, Alyson Kilpatrick, who is an eminent barrister and a specialist in Article 2 law. She told the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee of the UK Parliament and has said on many occasions internationally that it is irredeemable. We believe that is the case after taking advice from people at the United Nations and experts on law in leading academic fields. The Bill cannot be fixed. It needs to just go.

We argue that taking the case is a humanitarian act. We talk about the impact on families. Five years ago, we had more than 320 mothers on our database system of members. Today, just under 100 mothers are left. This is time sensitive. Maureen Rafferty accompanied me to meet former Tánaiste, Deputy Coveney, in Belfast, when he was Minister for Foreign Affairs. She said to him that she was pleading with him as an Irish citizen, that she had been held on a string dangling for two and a half decades on a promise of an investigation that has never happened, and now this legislation will take that away. She also said she will not see the next five or six years, which is the time it takes to get to Strasbourg, and that she needed the Minister to intervene and act because he could short circuit that and go directly to Strasbourg with an interstate case and maybe in her lifetime, if she lives for the next five or six years, she will see some sense of satisfaction, remedy and accountability. Otherwise, she cannot exhaust the processes of going through the domestic legal system as it would take a number of years. It is an act of humanitarianism as well as standing up for rights of victims under the Good Friday Agreement. That maybe quickly answers the question. Somebody may wish to add to that.

To make it clear, there is a minute left for this section. We have 15 minutes left overall. We gave everybody the same amount of time. If somebody does not take up their time, we can get other people back in a second time. Does Mr. Finucane want to come back in?

Mr. John Finucane

I squeezed in two rather large questions. I do not know if anybody else - Professor Rolston, Ms Hackett or Ms Oliega - wants to come back in on the urgency of the Irish Government making a decision and also-----

If they do, they can maybe come back in later. Unfortunately, the committee set up two back-to-back sessions for today. That is the reason we have time pressure. Normally, we do not. Senator Blaney was on the line earlier. If he is not there, I will move on. He is not there right now, so we are on to the Fine Gael slot.

I will not take too long. I commend the work that is being done. I have just a few questions, particularly on the reference made to the UK Labour Party and what it might do. In the expectation that there may very well be a change in the UK Government, it is very important that we all engage with all the parties in Westminster, particularly the Labour Party and Hilary Benn. Do we have an understanding of what exactly they are saying about the Bill?

Professor Bill Rolston

The Labour Party is on record as saying it will reverse the Bill. We are in a win-win situation as regards asking for an interstate case. If the Labour Party stays true to its proposal and reverses the Bill then, as I said, a case in Europe would add pressure or support to that idea of doing away with the Bill.

If it is helpful in that regard, our committee unanimously wrote to and called on the Government to take that interstate case. Clearly, there is a due process within government. I recognise the fact Mr. Finucane spoke about the date in November and the Government statement. The timeline is very short. We would be very happy, if the committee agrees following this meeting, to urge the Government to actually take that case.

The key point is this. Although the present UK Government is pushing the legislation, I am not clear whether the Labour Party will abolish it entirely. If I am right, and this is the key point, it is talking about the restoration and continuation of civil cases, or the civil part of the legislation, which would be denied to people. That relates to having an investigation in the form of a coroner's inquest, in addition to restoring some independence as to whether there would be a prosecution. I do not know whether that is correct. It is very important, however, that we articulate to the UK Labour Party and other opposition parties in Westminster exactly what the future might be in respect of this, if they are in power.

Professor Bill Rolston

I will come back in for less than one minute. My other point is that if the Labour Party does not go ahead with its promise, then the case to Europe becomes even more important. I do not know whether this goes against the remarks on respect or whatever but, on a personal level, I am not entirely convinced that Keir Starmer will be true to his word, if and when he gets elected. I am also not sure what space Hilary Benn might have, given what else is happening in British politics, to deliver on this.

I hear Professor Rolston. That is why I raised the question. It is why it is important that those of us who are in political parties or different organisations, such as Professor Rolston, renew the presentation of our views and opinions to people in opposition, or who might be in government in the UK in future. That is the only point I wished to make.

I will make another point. I acknowledge and agree fully with what has been said. I have no issue with it, but I am also concerned about what is happening regarding people who committed murders and crimes on the side of the nationalist or republican community. I will make an appeal now, if I may. The committee visited the site where Columba McVeigh was murdered and is believed to be buried. His body has never been found. He has been buried for more than 48 years in a huge, lonely bog in County Monaghan beside the Border. From talking to those families, which I know the representatives do, I want to represent our concerns for everybody who suffered and whose family members were murdered, whoever they were. On the disappeared, whose bodies have not yet been recovered, do the witnesses have any view on what additional pressure we can put on people who might know about those deaths and where those bodies might be found?

Professor Bill Rolston

I suggest that the Cathaoirleach's latter point on bringing pressure on military organisations, past or present, is beyond our brief. We completely agree with him regarding the families of the disappeared because, in a way, that is a compounded difficulty they have. At least, most of the families we deal with have a body and a grave to go to. The families of the disappeared do not. There is no way whatsoever that this legacy Bill makes those bodies more likely to be found.

No, of course it does not. However, our discussion today should put pressure on people on all sides to come clean about things that have happened in the past. It is important that we, and certainly I, articulate the views of the McVeigh family today. I feel very strongly about that. Nothing has been said by Relatives for Justice that I do not agree with, and I fully support it, but I do not see any reference in its commentary, and perhaps I missed it, to those families specifically. I see that as a weakness. I welcome Professor Rolston's support for what I said. If we are to get peace on this island, we have to make sure there is justice for everybody, which I know is what Relatives for Justice want.

Professor Bill Rolston

Is the Cathaoirleach happy for Ms Hackett and Mr. Thompson responded briefly to that?

Ms Claire Hackett

I thank the Chair. Relatives for Justice strongly believes that everyone harmed by the conflict needs to have justice and reparation. In fact, all our work has been about designing a process for that. I will insert this one bit. One of the things that I and other people in Relatives for Justice have been leading the way on is the notion of incorporating a gender lens for dealing with the legacy of the conflict. One of the reasons we know that is needed is it looks at multiple harms people have endured from all actors. We want any processes to look at all of those harms. The Cathaoirleach outlined the case of Columba McVeigh very eloquently, not just his killing and death, but his disappearance and what his family have had to endure. That is replicated in so many ways, not just in one harm that is inflicted on a family but many different kinds of harm. Sometimes, in one family, there will be someone who has been killed by the British army and then someone who has been harmed by the IRA or other groups.

These multiple harms happen in one family and we want a process that looks at the harms of everyone involved. We have always been very clear about this.

I welcome that and I agree with Ms Hackett. To not have a body to bring home is entirely evil. Anybody who knows anything about this should come forward. They can do it in a way in which they are not open to prosecution. I feel very strongly about this. I accept and acknowledge the total concern and commitment to this principle of the witnesses.

I thank all of the witnesses for coming before the committee and for the amazing work they do. I am very aware of the work they do, which is really a vocation. Their dedication is brilliant.

As the Cathaoirleach said, the committee has supported the families' call for consideration by the Irish Government on taking an interstate case. We were very happy that we were able to support it. I am aware that recently the witnesses were in the US meeting representatives of the Administration and Members of Congress. Would they be able to discuss the potential from this? What type of reception did they get in the US? What did people say? Are they supportive of taking an interstate case? Will the witnesses speak a little about that? I want to speak about intergenerational trauma afterwards.

Mr. Mark Thompson

I thank Senator Black. We were in the United States a few short weeks ago. We were invited to address the issue with the Irish diaspora. There are quite a number of such families living on the east coast of the United States where we were. I spoke at four events and we had a number of meetings. The Irish diaspora and the Irish-American community were central to establishing and helping us to get the Good Friday Agreement. They are very proud of this fact. The legacy Act effectively hollows out key provisions in it. Professor Rolston referred to that earlier. In this context, not only did we speak about and give updates on what was happening but we rallied support for a lobby to encourage the Irish Government. We met a number of legislators, Members of Congress and key aides. The clear message from all of them was that if the Irish Government were to move to take a case, they would support it fully. They are very much aware of the backdrop to this since it was introduced by Brandon Lewis as a command paper, right through its passage into law. They have been active and supportive of the families and their rights being afforded and protected with regard to proper and effective investigations. They are very vocal and supportive.

It is my understanding that there is a letter circulating in draft form and I am told it may emerge in the coming days or weeks. It is in respect of directly writing to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste, whom we know also engaged with the US Administration on this when they were last together at the UN in New York. Everyone is active on it. The message is that the Irish Government tried and did everything to the best of its ability but the UK has continued regardless and ignored all of the pleas internationally from the US, the international community and the Irish Government. If the Irish Government were to act, it would be encouraged to take the case.

In the summer of 2022, we were very privileged to join the Cathaoirleach and other distinguished members of the panel, including John Finucane, when we attended and held a number of meetings on Capitol Hill on this issue. We were very well received. It was at that time that the Cathaoirleach took the decision to state that if the Government were to take an interstate case, he would be on record as supporting it. All of this is encouraging. We need to encourage the Government internationally with as much support as possible to take the case and we are urging it to do so.

I thank Mr. Thompson. That is very good to hear. We all know the role the US played in the Good Friday Agreement. The work being done by the witnesses in the US is vital.

I want to come back to the issue of intergenerational trauma. The witnesses deal on a daily basis with the impact of what has happened in the North. We know it plays a large role in families with ongoing trauma. I do not know whether there is a way to describe it. It is very difficult to describe intergenerational trauma but the impact is horrific. It also impacts culturally, politically and economically in all sorts of ways. Families and communities have great emotional burdens to contend with. Will the witnesses speak about how their work, and the legacy Act's attempt to curtail it, intersects with intergenerational trauma? That is very important.

Mr. Mark Thompson

I reiterate what I said. We had a generation following the peace process that hoped this would be resolved. It has now passed to a new generation. This Act is not a full stop. It will not stop what it happening. It will add to further destabilisation. It is important to build on this. There are a number of parallels. This is having a corrosive effect on the body politic and civil society. There is a lack of confidence in the criminal justice system. There is a particular lack of confidence in policing because the PSNI is fighting a rearguard action to protect the RUC in the Belfast courts. We only have to look at the recent Sean Brown case when 18 boxes of sensitive information were withheld not only from the Irish Government, which was involved in a panel on the murder with a number of lawyers to build confidence to have it resolved, but also from the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the courts. It only emerged last week that this sensitive information is being retained by the intelligence services and the PSNI. This could be replicated in case after case. It is having a corrosive effect. There is no support for policing when it comes to these issues. There is no confidence in the police to actively investigate or do anything and it is fighting this rearguard action.

We have that at one level and we also have the intergenerational trauma being handed to a new generation to pick up the baton and continue the fight. This just passes it on. The whole notion that the Act is being branded as reconciliation is a complete lie. It is a complete falsehood. It will not further the aim of achieving reconciliation; it will cause more disharmony, dismay and disillusionment. The people driving the Act care about one thing only, namely, the protection of British soldiers and their reputation with regard to their role in the conflict in our country. That is what is at the bottom of it. As the committee knows, other Oireachtas committees, particularly the Barron inquiry, sought co-operation from the UK in the handover of documentation and it refused to co-operate. This is in keeping with the modus of the UK with regard to how it approaches legacy. There will be more intergenerational trauma and all of the other associated elements I have just described.

To come back to the point made by the Cathaoirleach, we work with many families affected by many actors. At times there is an attempt to pigeonhole our organisation in a particular way by other people who probably do not want us doing the work we are doing. I am not for one second saying this is what was being done this morning. I am working with a number of families affected by the agent known as "Stakeknife". I have been working diligently for the past six years with a number of these families. Yesterday, a decision was made that there would be absolutely no prosecutions in quite a number of these cases. Ms Oliega Aiesta could probably speak about the impact of the Ombudsman's letters on families and the trauma this has been causing.

Every day is a traumatic experience for families, where the door is closed on them after hopes and promises died but do you know what? They are a brilliant and resilient people, and they continue. It has been humble to walk with them, support them and work with them. They have come through so much for this to be taken away from them through this Act, closing everything down and telling them, “You will not get anything. That is it. It is over.” This will not deliver and it is irredeemable. They are not fixing this. The beauty of the Stormont House Agreement was it was for everyone - all actors, regardless of who they were. If you were a victim, regardless of who the perpetrator was, this process worked for you. That is what we had but the UK did not want it because they were subject to it as well.

(Interruptions).

I have run out of time. If somebody else wants to come in, I will come back in perhaps at the very end for a final question. I think somebody else wants to come in. Is it Ms Hackett?

Ms Irati Oliega Aiesta

Could I add something very briefly?

I am happy to take Ms Oliega Aiesta. It is no problem. Our problem is to ensure the number of members who want to speak can get in. I will let Ms Oliega Aiesta in; she does not need to worry about that. Sinn Féin is next. I just wanted to get the order right. Deputy Tóibín is after that. Is that okay? Is everybody happy with that? I just want to make sure everybody can come in. If Ms Hackett comes back or if Deputy Violet-Anne Wynne, who is here, wants to come in, we will make sure everybody gets in.

Deputy Tóibín can go ahead.

Yes, but I will take this lady first.

Sorry. My apologies to Ms Oliega Aiesta.

Ms Irati Oliega Aiesta

Do not worry. I wish to add to what Professor Rolston said. As part of our work, we have been very active in reporting what has been happening in the high court in Belfast for two weeks. I think Professor Rolston mentioned the legal challenge that some of the families have taken. We are active in that sense. Something the high court heard that ties in with the question about intergenerational trauma is that regarding the enactment of the Bill, the Act itself is considered to be a secondary trauma to victims and survivors. It does not affect only the initial victims. We are talking about the secondary trauma that now affects the whole family; we are talking about different generations.

Going back to previous questions that were not fully answered, we believe that the Act violates several of the articles of the European Convention on Human Rights. Going back to basics, something we do not mention often is that the basis and core of all human rights is human dignity, which is exactly what is being attacked, in this case, as a secondary trauma intergenerationally. That is the impact across not only victims and survivors but the whole society here. It is something we should also take into account.

Gabhaim buíochas leis na finnéithe as an gcur i láthair a thabhairt dúinn inniu. I thank the witnesses for the opportunity to discuss these issues with them. I thank them as well for the hard work they have been doing in their campaigns over the past number of years in seeking justice. Obviously, the legacy Bill is a devastating blow to people right across Ireland in terms of truth recovery and also seeking justice for loved ones. It is nearly impossible to overstate the heartbreak and damage the Bill is currently causing. It is a deep frustration to see the British Government operate unilaterally against the wishes of every single political party and community organisation across Ireland.

Aontú has a Bill that we hope will get to Second Stage soon. It would mandate the Irish Government to proceed with a court case in the European Court of Human Rights. It would take the decision out of the Government’s hands, so to speak, and put it into the Chamber as well. We are hopeful that might make progress over the next while.

It would be good if this committee passes a proposal or motion today that a letter is sent to the Tánaiste and Taoiseach recommending and asking the Government to proceed with that court case.

We already agreed that.

Very good. Sorry, I missed that. That is excellent news. I am delighted.

I understand. We are with the Deputy all the way.

Good stuff.

Why do the witnesses think the Irish Government has so far not taken a court case to the European Court of Human Rights? Why do they think there is a, perhaps, reluctance in government circles regarding this?

Professor Bill Rolston

I will make a stab at it. I can think of a couple of things off the top of my head. First, it is not something that is taken lightly. Second, there is some history of success but also some history of failure with regard to such interstate cases. Third, there may be what looks like a sort of genuine sense of seeing if this could be amended or worked out if we let it roll for a wee bit. Regarding the last point, Mr. Thompson already answered it. It is not redeemable. Despite the complexity, the gravitas of bringing such a case and past failures, it has to happen. It simply has to happen because it is the only way forward to try to stop this Act continuing to cause harm.

I have always felt the Irish Government was reluctant because it has had an instinct that it should operate within the bounds of diplomacy and that diplomacy is the best way to try to get the British across the line in terms of change. It strikes me that the unilateralism that is at the heart of the Tory Government at the moment is impervious to diplomacy. In fact, when we saw the European Union threaten to bring Britain to court over the Brexit issue, it very quickly changed the British Government’s direction of travel on that issue. The British Government does not understand the subtleties of diplomacy but only understands stronger engagement such as court cases.

We have been looking at and produced a Bill that would give an opportunity for the Southern Government to initiate a commission of investigation into the South in respect of murders committed in the North of Ireland with regard to the British state, and murders committed in the Southern State, such as the Dublin and Monaghan bombings and so on. We are trying to find justice where we can get it. The particular commission of investigation we are looking at would allow for evidence to be given to a judge in the Southern jurisdiction, it would allow people from the North of Ireland also to provide evidence and it would allow that evidence collected in reports in the North and elsewhere, in term of state violence especially, be included in the investigation. For example, the Police Ombudsman in the North of Ireland has carried out some very good work in respect of killings that happened in the North and that could be included into an investigation located in the South of Ireland. Obviously, we would not have the ability to subpoena people outside of this jurisdiction, but such a commission of investigation still would offer a great opportunity for the collection of information and also for that information to be analysed for a decision to be made in respect of responsibility for state murders. What are the witnesses' opinions on such a project?

Professor Bill Rolston

In general, we are not like the Deputy. We are not elected politicians. While I may have opinions that I could let fly of what I think of the Tory Government in the UK at the moment, I will not do that. If the Deputy can contribute in any way from either side of the Border to bringing more truth to bear in respect of what happened, organisations such RFJ would be completely behind him. Not to negate that, two other points need to be added. First, there is already an awful lot of information and, second, we know an awful lot of information is there already but we have not yet seen it. What was buried in Kew was in my initial report.

Remember, there is also information that is potentially available in the southern system - I refer to Dublin and Monaghan, for example - which has not come to light. If it comes to light through such an investigation or any other way that can be done, that would be welcome. This is because the truth is not the same as justice, but it is part-way there.

Will Professor Rolston identify where the blockages are in terms of the travel of information that is in the hands of the southern authorities? These may be with An Garda Síochána or the State. If they could be clearly identified, it would give us as elected representatives the opportunity to push for that to happen. It would not be possible for that information to be given now but, at a later date, Professor Rolston might provide the committee with information on elements of blockages that might exist for the transfer of information. The committee might start working on trying to free up those blockages.

Professor Bill Rolston

Fair enough. Yet, also, with respect, the Deputy is on the spot, so keep digging.

Okay. That is good stuff. Is it possible to ask a number of questions about the legacy legislation itself? I have some queries about it and Professor Rolston might be able to answer them. I refer to where a person provides an account which is true to the best of their knowledge or belief but then is potentially disproved in evidence later on. In those situations, can immunity be rescinded?

Mr. Mark Thompson

It is my understanding that if they are found to have lied, it will be rescinded and there will probably be a sentence. The problem with this legislation, in our experience of dealing with legacy over a number of decades, is that it will favour one set of actors only. It will be those who wore a state uniform or those who were employed by the state within illegal paramilitary organisations. Down the years, I have spoken to a number of police officers who worked there. John Stevens, who investigated collusion over three inquiries, spoke to me and a lawyer in Belfast about the 210 people he arrested during his extensive inquiries. These were the largest police investigations in British history, and this part of the jurisdiction falls under that. It was the largest police investigation in British history only until the point of the 7/7 bombings in London. He said that of the 210 people he questioned under caution, either attending voluntarily or under arrest, 207 were participating state agents within paramilitary organisations. His Stevens report has never been published. That gives us an estimation of what is at play here.

The UK Government has looked at a big, macro picture. As Professor Rolston rightly pointed out, it put in all the underhanded tactics, such as hiding, burying, concealing and destroying evidence as well as hiding witnesses, prevarication, delay and obfuscation. It brought it all into this Act. If there are beneficiaries of this Act, they are principally those who wore the state uniform and worked for the state. I have a concern that we will get into the territory where this legislation could be weaponised and used in a dangerous political way. It could be used for political advantage and to preserve a particular narrative of the conflict that will accommodate a British view of the conflict. That is what has been happening in the courts with the destruction and hiding of evidence. It will continue in the same vein.

Amendments were made so that anyone who refused to co-operate when requested would be fined up to £5,000. If their review found that there was evidence of wrongdoing, they would serve their full sentence. Then, anyone who comes along can meet the threshold, which equates to an amnesty. There is the phrase "to the best of your knowledge". The most commonly used phrase during the Bloody Sunday inquiry was "I can't remember". That is the territory we are in. It is the commonly used phrase by British soldiers behind the screens of Belfast courts. If there are punitive elements in this Act, they will be weaponised to promote a state narrative, as well as to agitate and go against people who were non-state actors. That is a completely dangerous territory that I fear regarding this Act.

I have one final small question, which may have been discussed earlier, but I missed the start of the meeting because I was in the Chamber. Is there a deadline for which cases of individuals or the state can be brought under this Act to the European Court of Human Rights, ECHR?

Mr. Mark Thompson

The Act was passed in the UK Parliament on 18 September. It is my understanding from speaking to some lawyers that you will have four months to lodge the interstate case. That will bring us to 18 January, so we have a ticking clock. We have two ticking clocks. We have a ticking clock in Belfast where the state is refusing to hand over information to coroners and is running down the clock to 1 May. Inquests will be shut down and will not be concluded because of that. We also have the ticking clock for the Irish Government to make up its mind about whether to take up the case by 18 January. That is where the families are stuck right now. The Deputy will appreciate that it is not a good place to be. Hence, our last hope and last option is that the UK Act is challenged by the Irish Government.

It was mentioned earlier about whether the Government will take it. As Professor Rolston rightly says, these are not decisions one will take lightly. Ultimately, however, this is a matter of the voice of all victims in the North, whether those are the disappeared, whether those are affected by republicans, loyalists or the state, or whether they are combatants or civilians, as the majority of people are. We are all saying we oppose this. We are all saying we do not want this. We are all saying there is a better consensus around the Stormont House Agreement. It would work and it was inclusive. We are all saying this to the Irish Government. I speak to the unionists and unionist victims every week. They are saying we all want the Irish Government to take this. There are private communications by many of these victims with some organisations. They say they should take it. We have until 18 January and we are saying it is the right thing to do. There is a legal and moral objective to do it. We are encouraging and urging the Irish Government to take the interstate case. It is the right thing to do.

I thank Mr. Thompson.

I have one final question. I was actually not aware that the deadline was 18 January. That is very worrying. It is really important the Irish Government makes a decision as soon as possible on this issue.

I want to speak about the Good Friday Agreement. The European Convention on Human Rights is the scaffolding of the Good Friday Agreement. How do the representatives feel the passage of the legacy Act, which is so obviously a violation of Article 2, will impact on the Good Friday Agreement? It is one of the most important agreements ever. It is important to talk about that.

Do the representatives have any views on the debate within the Tory Government? This may be something they do not really want to speak about. Have they any views about the debate within the Tory Government on leaving the jurisdiction of the ECHR in order that they can harden their immigration policy? Does that link in some way? Is there a connection? What are the representatives' thoughts on the connection around all of that?

Professor Bill Rolston

That is a bit beyond our brief, but I will give the Senator some reply. I believe that the current Tory Government does see international human rights law as an obstacle rather than an opportunity. This is shown in various forms, the most obvious of which is the one the Senator has just raised, namely, migration. She may remember how the Supreme Court recently stamped down the legislation to bring refugees or asylum seekers to Rwanda. The immediate response by the UK Government was not to say it acknowledged its international human rights obligations but to say it would design legislation so that international human rights organisations could not stop it from doing that. I do not know what that means. Ultimately, the logic behind that is the Government will pull out from all these international obligations.

To my knowledge, no one has said that specifically about the legacy Act. I may be wrong, and Mr. Thompson might correct me, but there is a logic in there that says we can fix it to make sure it is compliant with human rights. We disagree entirely with that and have a lot of support for that. However, if it keeps being shown that it cannot be made compliant with human rights, it is only a matter of time before some secretary of state or other Tory minister says they will do it anyway because they do not want to be encumbered by human rights legislation.

I have another query for Professor Rolston on Keir Starmer. Why does he think Mr. Starmer would not stick to his word? I would like to hear a little more about this when it comes to the legacy Bill. It is important for us. It means those of us here in Dublin have to put even greater pressure on the Government going forward. Will Professor Rolston say a little more about this?

Professor Bill Rolston

I would prefer to be talking to the Senator about this issue over a pint at Féile. In the meantime, without getting too deep into this matter, the priority of the British Labour Party and the Tory Government in England now is how they can get elected. It is not about how they make the country better, how to solve this huge problem or how to improve the economy. It is about none of those things. All those things fall in under the one rubric of "how do we get elected". As far as, for example, Suella Braverman is concerned, and James Cleverly and others are not so far behind, what is important is how they can stop the boats. That will get them elected. If they have an Act to show they can stop the boats, then they will get elected. On the British Labour Party side, the question of how it gets elected leads to one answer and, again, this is a boat metaphor of not rocking any boats and being as middle of the road as possible, somewhere between Thatcher and Blair, because this is where the votes lie. The key point for the British Labour Party is not to rock any boats or to promise anything that will be a hostage to fortune. The aim is to be as bland as possible because bland is what will get the party elected.

I thank Professor Rolston.

I would not disagree with that analysis. I think we have had a very good engagement. Are any of the Sinn Féin MPs there?

Mr. John Finucane

I think the Cathaoirleach was the first to make the suggestion about a further letter. For me, as the conversation has progressed, what is clear, respectfully, from my point of view, is that there needs to be two aspects to that letter. First, it needs to stress the urgency and that a decision needs to be made. We are aware now of the timeframe. Since this committee first wrote to the Attorney General, I believe the Government had formed the position that it wanted to wait and see what the legislation looked like in its final form. Well, we have that now. The Taoiseach has now been on the record for nearly a month as having said that the Government's position will be published within a matter of weeks. We know there is an urgency in this regard. I do not need to rehearse the reasons that our guests have set out this morning. This letter, then, needs to set out the urgency in this regard, and also the position of the committee, which is that the case needs to be taken for all the obvious reasons. I just wish to make this observation.

I have one brief follow-up question about the timetable for the challenge. The oral submissions stage of the judicial review concluded last week, as I understand it. Our next guest may well be able to delve into this in a little bit more detail. I wonder, though, if anybody can outline the expected timeframes that these legal challenges will now face, in the realistic expectation that either one side or the other will appeal this through either of the channels.

Mr. Mark Thompson

I will pick up on this point. I know Ms Aiesta was in the court for two weeks observing and monitoring the process with the families. Mr. Justice Colton heard that case and I do not believe a verdict in a case of that magnitude and the number of papers involved will come soon. I know the next contributor is very centrally involved in the case in representing families that, in part, initiated the case, but I cannot see a judgment being delivered before 18 January 2024, which is the deadline. An appeal will be undertaken by one side or the other, as has been pointed out. This will go to the Court of Appeal and then to the UK Supreme Court.

The way the British Government has prevaricated, obfuscated and delayed, using all these tactics, means it could be a few years, even three or four, before the case gets to Strasbourg. The beauty of an interstate case is that it leapfrogs all that and goes directly to Strasbourg. It could, possibly, I believe, be in the Grand Chamber within several months. Submissions will just be made by both sides. There will be merits to the case going forward. It will then go forward and be heard. This is the ballpark we need to be in.

The other important thing we probably need to understand is that this is an Act in British law. A British court can only make a declaration but it cannot overturn it. It can make a declaration of concerns about the law's incompatibility with the European Convention on Human Rights. Beyond that, it cannot do anything else. It cannot overturn the law. It is important that a case is taken, that a stand is taken and that the families battle this law, but it is important this is heard in Strasbourg as quickly as possible. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Mr. Molloy does not wish to comment further. We have had a very interesting debate. I met Mr. Thompson in Washington DC where we met a person called Martin Galvin and other representatives of the Ancient Order of Hibernians. Mr. Finucane was with us there as well. The AOH organisation is taking this whole debate today online, so we send our good wishes to all the AOH people in America who have the privilege of listening to our wise words.

It has been an important and informative meeting. Collectively, I think, we all agree that the case should be taken and that this committee, if it is agreed unanimously, should write another letter. I do not think that anybody will disagree with the sentiments expressed by Mr. Finucane as regards what we should say in that letter. I will ask the clerk to the committee to circulate a draft letter to everybody to ensure we are all in agreement. I do not see any reason we will not be. We will then get it sent off to the Taoiseach and the Government straightaway.

If I can use first names, I thank Bill, Claire, Irati and Mark for their attendance today. We just need to keep on top of the issues, as was said, and to debate them. Our communication and the additional knowledge that I and our members have gained today as a result of the witnesses' contributions is very welcome indeed.

We have a second session of this meeting in a few minutes, so I will suspend now. I again thank all the witnesses for coming in. I know, please God, we will meet all of them again in the new year.

Sitting suspended at 10.47 a.m. and resumed at 11.03 a.m.

Deputy Feighan cannot attend the meeting and sends his apologies. On behalf of the committee I welcome Pádraig Ó Muirigh, solictor, to discuss the UK's Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Act 2023. I know Mr. Ó Muirigh was very busy earlier today so we are very thankful that he could take the time to attend.

The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings should be given and they should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her, or it, identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside the Houses or an official, either by name, or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable. I now call on Mr. Ó Murirgh to make his opening statement.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

I am honoured to have been asked to appear before the committee to discuss the Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy & Reconciliation) Act 2023 and its repercussions for bereaved families. I was born in Belfast and raised in the shadow of Clonard Monastery which hosted the secret Hume-Adams talks that laid the foundations for the peace process that would ultimately lead to the Good Friday Agreement of 1998.

I am a keen supporter of the agreement. Today I want to discuss a number of matters regarding its legacy. The agreement was obviously a very important roadmap to peace for us but there was one important lacuna in it. This is the fact that it did not set in place any overarching mechanism to deal with the past in Northern Ireland. This has led to lawyers in the North utilising a number of what we call piecemeal mechanisms such as inquests, civil actions, the police ombudsman's office and to a lesser degree, police investigations to assist families in dealing with legacy issues. None of these models was designed to deal with the past and we have had to use all our skills to do that. Very importantly, the incorporation of the European Convention on Human Rights, ECHR, into UK law was a pivotal moment. That duty was placed on the UK Government by the Good Friday Agreement. That has been a very important development. In particular, it has provided a remedy for breaches of convention rights in the UK courts, rather than the need to go to the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, which can be a very lengthy process, taking up to five years or more. Families had a quicker and better alternative in the domestic courts. The development of Article 2 procedural obligations in particular has dramatically changed the inquest process and has produced much more thorough, conclusive and effective investigations into the circumstance of the deaths of loved ones.

There is much evidence that the current judicial and investigative processes have been working well, perhaps too well, in recent years. I have completed the inquests into the deaths of 15 individuals, including nine people shot dead at Ballymurphy in 1971 and two children, Francis Rowntree and Stephen Geddis, shot dead by baton rounds. In all 15 cases the coroner determined that the deceased was innocent and that the force used by the state was unjustified.

There have also been a number of high-profile police ombudsman investigations which have found evidence of collusion between the security forces and police. There have been many successful outcomes in civil actions and various police investigations have led to soldiers being charged with serious crimes. The British legal system was not designed, or indeed intended, to deliver such outcomes in conflict-related cases. It was no longer a weapon in the British Government's arsenal as envisaged by Brigadier Frank Kitson, a key architect of British counter-insurgency strategy during the conflict. However, these legal victories for families have prompted a response or a pushback from the British Government.

On the same day that the current Lady Chief Justice of Northern Ireland, Siobhan Keegan, delivered the Ballymurphy findings, the UK Government, in the Queen's speech reopening Parliament, vowed to end the cycle of legacy investigations. This pledge culminated in what is now known as the the legacy Act passing into law on the 18 September 2023. The Act contains provisions that guillotine existing judicial and investigative mechanisms such as inquests and civil actions and replace these with the Independent Commission for Reconciliation and Information Recovery, ICRIR. The British Secretary of State will control its budget, shape its caseload, have the power to prohibit disclosure and will have some editorial control of its reports. In essence, it is a creature of the Northern Ireland Executive. It is controlled by, and must report to the British Secretary of State. According to the Model Bill Team at Queen's University Belfast, the Act also contains one of the most sweeping amnesties introduced in any jurisdiction since 1945, being significantly more expansive than that brought in by the Chilean dictator, Augusto Pinochet. The British Government has made no secret of the fact that this legislation was primarily about delivering commitments to protect army veterans from the legal processes.

In response to the passing of the Act, a judicial review challenge has been brought by victims against the British Secretary of State to the High Court in Belfast. I am currently involved in the case. A number of human rights organisations have also intervened. The court heard submissions for 7 days at the end of November. A judgment is awaited from the Honourable Mr. Justice Colton but any decision is likely to be appealed by either party and the matter could eventually be determined by the supreme court.

This legal challenge has its limitations. If an Act of Parliament breaches the convention rights, the courts can declare the legislation incompatible with the ECHR. This does not make the law invalid. It remains up to the Parliament to decide whether to change it.

It is likely that the current British Government will ignore any ruling by the supreme court and will ultimately abandon the European Court of Human Rights. It is intent on a collision course with the courts, just like on the issue of immigration, to generate political capital as defenders of army veterans. While Labour leader, Keir Starmer, has publicly committed to repealing the Act, it is feared by many families that, as Prime Minister, he may, when push comes to shove, soften his stance and merely tinker with the ICRIR. However, he may be susceptible to a negative ruling from the supreme court or, more particularly, the European Court of Human Rights on this issue. Will he want the UK to be a pariah state in the international community?

The Irish Government, for this reason, and not least as co-guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, should challenge the UK over the Act through an interstate case to the European Court of Human Rights. There is a precedent. The Irish Government previously took the UK to court in 1971 over the so-called five techniques used to interrogate people arrested during internment in the North of Ireland. This has become known as the Hooded Men case. As Kieran McAvoy of Queens University Belfast has said in a recent article in The Irish Times, there are some advantages to an interstate challenge such as the fact there is no requirement for the Irish Government to exhaust local remedies before accessing the Strasbourg court. This will mean any interstate hearing will not have to await the conclusion of the current litigation. Such a challenge may not have any impact on the current British Government’s trajectory but may provide an incoming Labour administration with sufficient political cover to fulfil its commitment to repeal this draconian legislation.

Finally, I want to finish my remarks by reference to a key goal of the Good Friday Agreement, which is reconciliation. The word appears in the title of this Act.There is a clear tension between intention of the legislation and the language of the Act. There are many components to the concept of reconciliation. It can mean intercommunity reconciliation or reconciliation between the victims and the perpetrator of gross human rights violations in the context of post-conflict societies. There are other necessary conditions to reconciliation such as accountability and the development of a political culture that is respectful of the human rights principles, one in which the universal application of the rule of law is deeply valued and respected.

This legislation is a breach of the Good Friday Agreement, the ECHR and international human rights standards, and it fundamentally undermines the rule of law. The stumbling block to reconciliation has not been victims exercising their rights to access to justice but 50 years of the state wilfully obstructing and delaying justice for families. It is only through independent legal processes that the rule of law is restored. This is especially so in cases where the legal system has previously been employed by the state to deny human rights abuses. As Ben Ferencz, a young prosecutor at the Nuremburg trials, said, "There can be no peace without justice, no justice without law and no meaningful law without a Court to decide what is just and lawful under any given circumstance."

I thank Mr.Ó Muirigh for a very intensive analysis of the issues there which were succinctly and well put. I inform our guest speakers that our committee has written to the Taoiseach and the Government fully supporting that it would take such an action in the European Court, and today we have already unanimously agreed and will be drafting a letter to our members, who all will sign off on it, strongly reiterating the points which were made in that regard. I call Mr. Molloy of Sinn Féin. He is very welcome.

Mr. Francie Molloy

Mr. Ó Muirigh is very welcome to the meeting today and it is very important to hear exactly the case on behalf of relatives and the fact the court cases which happened had been taken by number of solicitors in this particular way.

It is very important to recognise the role of the inquests and the effect they had on families because it gave them some information where, before that, there had been none. The Stormont House Agreement was one way in which all of this could have been dealt with but the British Government ignored it or set that agreement aside despite that it had been agreed within all parties and the two Governments.

In the presentation, we heard of the role of Jon Boutcher in the Operation Kenova investigation and the meeting with the families. Families were very satisfied with the role he had played within that investigation and the role and causes of families he was promoting. How does Mr. Ó Muirigh believe families will react now where Mr. Boutcher is Chief Constable and seems to be blocking the cases going through the courts, where the police are withdrawing or not giving evidence to those cases and are blocking information coming out for that?

My other question is to ask about the role of the Irish Government in an interstate case. How strong is that and what are the timelines the Irish Government would need to meet to do that? I understand there is an urgency to get such a case brought forward quickly. Such a case would give confidence to the families in that the Irish Government, is acting, as Mr.Ó Muirigh has said, as per its role within the Good Friday Agreement, also as a guarantor, but also in directly supporting families in the North who are trying to get justice in this issue.

I know that in discussions with the Labour Party in England, I would not be confident the Labour Party under Keir Starmer would actually block or change this legislation. They may tinker with it but I would not have any confidence in that situation.

My two questions, therefore, are on the role of Jon Boutcher as Chief Constable but also on the Irish Government's situation in this issue.

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

I thank Mr. Molloy for his questions and I will start with the second question on the interstate case timeline.

Families must make an application within four months of either the passing of the Act or a decision by the highest court within that jurisdiction. In the circumstances of the judicial review, if we go to the supreme court, it would be four months from the date of any decision of the court. However, the Irish Government is not involved in that litigation and one of the arguments for it to act more promptly is that it does not need to await the outcome of the supreme court and can go to the European Court of Human Rights within these four months. Presumably, therefore, the Irish Government should act on this before 18 January.

I should say that that there are some discussions among lawyers and families at the minute where the families may also proceed to the European Court of Justice in advance of any supreme court decision based on the fact that it could be argued that the outcome of the judicial review may not be an effective remedy for families. I highlighted in my opening remarks that the judicial review had limitations in that any declaration of incompatibility was not a coercive direction to Parliament but, rather, was a signal. That signal could be ignored and is probably likely to be ignored by the current British Government. There might be an argument that families can also go to the European Court of Human Rights in advance of any supreme court decision and we are looking at that. It is imperative, regardless of any decisions made by families, that the Irish Government takes this case in any event.

On Mr. Molloy's first question on the PSNI, I believe it was directed at the PSNI and its interactions with the coronial process. There is a long-standing issue with both the PSNI and the Ministry of Defence, MOD, who are wilfully obstructing and delaying inquests and, in particular, the disclosure process. This is a particular problem now. Because of this new legislation, we are trying to advance as many inquests as possible before the guillotine date of 1 May 2024. This has meant more pressure at all ends; on families, legal representatives, on the court service and on those agencies that are required to provide disclosure and assist the inquest, including the PSNI. We have found in recent weeks and months that there have been considerable delays on the part of PSNI sticking to deadlines set by the court on the production of materials which have been directed of the PSNI.

In the view of the families, this is part of a long game and of an attempt to run the clock down. As the committee members may well be aware, if these inquests do not conclude by 1 May, they will not be allowed to continue. A cynical view might be that it is in the interests of certain parties to delay matters and effectively to derail the inquests. These cases will then be put into the ICRIR, which is a much less attractive investigation and I would not even call it an investigation, for a review of these matters. Families are quite cynical about that approach.

Jon Boutcher, on his appointment, made some commentary about legacy and perhaps about dealing with this issue, but will we will have to see how that plays out. There is a real urgency on the PSNI and, indeed, on the MOD to co-operate with the coroners and with the deadlines set by them.

I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh. Does Mr. Brady wish to speak?

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh for his presentation.

As Mr. Molloy mentioned, we have been involved in talks with members of the Labour Party. I am of the same opinion as Mr. Molloy, that Keir Starmer will tinker with the Act but will not change it effectively.

I will make a couple of points. One of the excuses for the Act was that there were vexatious cases being taken against state forces. The statistics simply do not bear that out. I believe Suella Braverman made a personal statement in the House of Commons yesterday in which she said it was right and proper that, after 40 years, these people should not be subjected to court cases for murders or whatever they committed. There is a strong feeling on this, and that has been brought through.

A body has been set up, headed by Declan Morgan, a former Chief Justice, with Peter Sheridan also involved. From talking to victims groups and victims themselves, is there much confidence that the body will bring anything forward? As mentioned, the cut-off date is 24 May and the likelihood is that there will be a process of obstructing cases and running the clock down until then. What level of confidence do victims have in the group to bring forward the issues they want to see resolved?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

Regarding vexatious cases, it is a matter for the court to determine whether a case is vexatious. Any court or judge would throw out a vexatious case. I provided examples in my statistics. I have had 15 inquests into deaths arising from legacy cases. In all 15, the force used was not justified and the deceased were innocent. I have settled a number of civil actions in respect of legacy matters – all of those were settled successfully. I cannot go into some of the details, for example, the amounts awarded, but it was a large number of cases with successful outcomes for families. I have yet to see or deal with a vexatious case. All of these are grounded on allegations of collusion or lethal force being used by the state in very controversial circumstances. I reject entirely the notion of them being vexatious. There is no basis for that assertion. It is simply a Tory minister playing politics with the issue.

Mr. Brady’s question was on confidence in the new body. I have to say that there is no confidence. I have met a large number of families in recent weeks since the passing of the Act. Some of them have been one-to-one meetings, others have been public meetings. I have yet to hear anyone advocate using the new process. There are many reasons for that. It is not an independent court or body such as the Police Ombudsman. It is a creature of the Executive, controlled by the British Secretary of State. I just went through the legislation in preparation for this meeting, so I will give some examples of the powers of the British Secretary of State. The Secretary of State appoints the commissioners under Schedule 1, has control over information disclosed by the commission, determines the terms and duration of the appointments of commissioners, has control over funding, must review the performance of the commission, and may make regulations winding it up. The British Secretary of State’s control over the commission is also clear from the fact that the commission must report to him. The Secretary of State controls much of that office in many ways, so families have no confidence in the process. The process is very inferior to the piecemeal mechanisms currently available to families.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I will ask another question and then finish. Obviously, the Act looks retrospectively at cases that have happened, particularly in the North, but there is a thought abroad that it also gives impunity to British forces in future. What are Mr. Ó Muirigh’s thoughts on this?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

I have no doubt that other countries probably had one eye to that when looking at this legislation, not only in respect of the conflict in the North of Ireland, but other conflicts that the British army has been involved in, is currently involved in or may be involved in in future. I am sure that other states will be looking at this legislation and will want to see the British Government getting away with it, particularly with the section on immunity. The expansive nature of that immunity is much greater than that which was used in Chile by Pinochet. There is a great deal of case law in the European courts against the exercise of immunities like this. It is clearly a breach of the European Convention on Human Rights. If the British Government gets away with it, I have no doubt that other states will look at that and be encouraged by it. It will also have an impact on the role and behaviour of the British army, not only today, but in future.

Mr. Mickey Brady

I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh.

I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh for attending and giving evidence. I also thank him for all the phenomenal work he does on behalf of bereaved families. It is important that we hear from people like him who have been working at the coalface of this issue for such a long time.

Before Relatives for Justice’s attendance here, I was not aware that there was a timeframe for the Irish Government to make a decision on this matter. I wish to ask Mr. Ó Muirigh about that. There is an urgent need for the Government to make a decision on challenging the UK through an interstate case. As Mr. Ó Muirigh well knows, the impact of the legacy Act on families will retraumatise them. They are already dealing with unbelievable trauma. The Irish Government has a duty to them. I am worried about the Christmas holidays. The deadline is 18 January. We are finishing up next week. Will this decision be made before 18 January? Will Mr. Ó Muirigh say a little about the urgent need for the Irish Government to make that decision?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

There is some urgency. The Taoiseach indicated quite a number of weeks ago that he would only take another couple of weeks. We have passed that point. The Attorney General has provided advice, so now it is probably more of a political decision. I am not sure what the legal advice was, but there are clear grounds for the Irish Government to take the case. Other than political reasons, I am unsure as to why it has not done so yet.

It is incumbent on the members of this committee and other politicians to keep the pressure on. We are now heading into a holiday period. Shortly after that, we will be close to the four-month deadline. I should stress that that is the deadline for families applying. My understanding is that it is the same for the State, but I stand to be corrected on that. Nonetheless, I do not see any reason for further delay. The Bill is now an Act and it is clear that it is in breach of the Good Friday Agreement and the European Convention on Human Rights. The Irish Government should not await any Supreme Court decision on that or wait on the outcome of the current litigation. The time to act is now. Doing so would not only be important legally, but it would put considerable pressure on the British Government, or, more likely, any incoming British Government. That may provide some political cover for a Labour Administration to seriously consider keeping its word, which it gave at Queen’s University Belfast, to repeal the Act. I have my doubts about that, as some members have already said, but without an interstate case, the Labour Government will have an easier ride in avoiding dealing with this issue in a substantive way.

In Mr. Ó Muirigh’s submission, he mentions that he qualified in 2009. He had several years of practice before the introduction of the Stormont House Agreement. How did it change his work and what does his work look like now following the passage of the legacy Act?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

I was involved in advising on the Stormont House Agreement. Like everything else, it was a political compromise. It was not the perfect resolution, but it was a much better process than the legacy framework will be following the Act. For example, many families had inquests or civil actions in the 1970s. Those legal processes were deeply flawed – soldiers were not compellable witnesses, families were not legally represented and there was no funding for legal representation. With the introduction of the Human Rights Act and the incorporation of the convention’s rights into domestic law – the Good Friday Agreement was pivotal in that – it meant my work changed considerably.

The committee is familiar with the Ballymurphy inquest. The original inquest in 1972 was pecuniary in nature. The more recent inquest was completely different. Families were front and centre at that inquest. They were represented by lawyers who could also make legal submissions on the scope and breadth of the inquest. They also employed forensic experts in ballistics and pathology and engineers to recreate the scene. They also had considerable disclosure, which was provided to them and allowed them to prepare for witnesses. They had access to soldiers' statements and witness testimony. The most important part was they had the facility through a public hearing, which is not allowed in this new process. That public hearing allowed the process to be transparent and the evidence to be examined and tested. I have often given the example of a witness who came to the Ballymurphy inquest and provided evidence, which in my view was to besmirch the reputation of the priest by claiming he had gone into the field where another man was shot to give him his last rites and lifted a rifle that was beside the man. When this gentleman came to give evidence at the inquest, we had disclosure and the autopsy report. The witness referred to him wearing the priest's robe as he did that and said he put the rifle up his robe. We were able to prove that was a lie because we had the autopsy photographs, which showed the priest was not wearing a robe. We had witness statements which described this priest's actions on the day and soldiers' statements. We had all that evidence and were able to dispel this attempt to besmirch this priest's reputation. We were then able to assist the coroner to come to the proper conclusion that Fr. Mullan was indeed innocent. That was a good example of a transparent process with disclosure and the opportunity to test evidence.

We often talk about the information recovery or reviews this body will do. Statements are only as good as the statement-taker. If they are not tested and families do not have access to all the information, we cannot prepare to examine, test and get the best evidence. The Ballymurphy model, as it is now known, has become the best way to get the truth in these cases. It is no accident that at the same we got these findings, the British Government announced it would end the cycle of legacy investigations. I have the ITV report from 1.19 p.m., which stated that on 11 May 2021, the Ballymurphy families left the Waterfront Hall at roughly 1 p.m. or shortly afterwards. Within minutes, this announcement was made, which culminated in the legacy Act. The Act dramatically changes that landscape. All the benefits we saw from the inquest which led to the findings of innocence are not available in this new model. It is a different model and is designed not to have the outcomes we saw in recent years in the Ballymurphy inquest and many other inquests.

I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh for his work. If it was not for people like him, Relatives for Justice and other organisations, I shudder to think where the voice would be for those families. He is doing phenomenal work. I hope he can be heard today. As he knows, I am an Independent in Leinster House. I hope the Government can hear what he is calling for. It is vital going forward. I shudder to think what will happen if the Government does not take an interstate case.

It is important to put the human face back on these types of discussions because sometimes we talk about these issues in legal and abstract terms. I think of one individual, Denise Mullen. She used to be a councillor for Aontú in the Moy area of east Tyrone. When she was four years old, the Glenanne gang came to her front door, shot her father dead in front of her and then tried to shoot her mother but she escaped by running across fields. Denise was left on the step while her father was dying for a few hours before the emergency services came. I think about the heinous elements of the murders of Irish people in the North of Ireland by the state. On top of that massive wrong was the cover-up, which heaped disaster on families. In many ways, families were nearly left to blame for the actions that befell them. At the time, the British establishment could separate itself - or at least try to - from those cover-ups by saying the administration in London was not responsible for the micro-actions of people on the ground in the North of Ireland. This Bill is the son and heir of each individual cover-up on the ground in the North of Ireland during the Troubles. In this situation, the British establishment cannot separate itself from those actions because the British Government itself is involved in the cover-up from its chambers in Westminster. That is a significant point.

It is important to say that the Tory Government cares and knows little about the North of Ireland. Its major motivation is votes on election day. That will always be the case. I met Labour Party peers and MPs in Westminster about this matter. I am left with no confidence that they will repeal this legislation either, if and when the Labour Party is elected to power in London.

An issue of frustration for me is that the Irish Government has been so slow to act. Before the legislation passed, the response from the Irish Government was that it would not make a decision until it passed because it would use every diplomatic tool to try to prevent that. Obviously, the legislation has been passed. Even now, we still hear a muddled response from the Government about what its decision will be. It is important for people, no matter where they are, whether in the South, the North, America or elsewhere, to make every effort to get the Irish Government to mobilise on this issue. I will raise it again with the Government in about an hour in the Dáil.

There is a little confusion over whether 18 January is the cut-off date for the Irish Government to make a decision on an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. Is there wriggle room on that timeframe?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

There may well be. The court states you must take the case within four months of the passing of the law or within four months of the decision of the highest court within that jurisdiction. It is perhaps open to the Irish Government to say the four months could extend to it as well regarding the Supreme Court. Regardless of any arguments around that, there is nothing to prevent it taking this case now. The benefit is that because it is not party to that litigation, it is not required to await the outcome. My argument to the Government is that it should take the case within this shorter window, in the first four months after the passing of the Act. It is not part of the litigation nor is it involved and it has no rights of audience within that judicial review. It is quite outside it. The case should be taken by 18 January.

We have little more than a month in the southern State to act on this. Given that most of that month will be taken up with Christmas holidays, with elected representatives back in their constituencies and offices closed, there is really about a fortnight left of the period during which the Irish Government has to make a decision about this. It is critical. Heaping the responsibility on victims to bring this case to the European Court of Human Rights is a disaster because it requires enormous time, effort and resources on the part of voluntary and campaign groups to launch such an action . The level of pressure on a Government to do similar is far less. It would be far less intrusive for a southern Government to do that. The onus is on the southern Government to act with immediacy.

I asked this question of the previous contributor too. We need to create an alternative source of justice and truth to the one available through London.

Aontú has produced a Bill that seeks for the establishment of a commission of investigation in the South of Ireland into people who have been killed and have suffered as a result of actions taken anywhere on the island. Obviously, that commission of investigation would be limited as regards forcing people outside of this jurisdiction to provide evidence. It could do stuff which would be valuable in its own right within this jurisdiction but would also be able to take voluntary evidence from people outside the jurisdiction in the North of Ireland, in Britain and elsewhere. If such a Bill were also passed through Stormont, it would then have an all-Ireland element to it in the context of the ability to force people in the Thirty-two Counties to participate. The commission of investigation would also allow for all the evidence that has been produced in so many different locations to be gathered in a central space to be properly analysed in order to then decide on the exact narratives of actions that were taken by the British state in terms of killings North and South. What is Mr. Ó Muirigh's view on that?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

I am not resistant to any proposal to advance information recovery, truth, etc., for families. My only concern is that some of the key combatants in the conflict, particularly the Ministry of Defence and the police, will not co-operate with any such inquiry. They will not allow access to their depository of materials to such a process, and it would be difficult to get the whole picture without that disclosure. That has been one of the benefits of an inquest process where the powers to compel disclosure are very important. Section 6 states that any material that is potentially relevant should be provided or disclosed. Looking at what is potentially relevant is a very broad test, and that has meant that families have received substantial disclosure. That is on a legal, statutory basis. As regards any inquiry that is set up, my difficulty would be that neither the Ministry of Defence nor, perhaps, the PSNI would co-operate with it. Without that material, it will be very difficult to have a full picture of what happened in terms of the conflict. I suspect the Ministry of Defence will not co-operate with it. It will certainly not allow a central depository of all its material on the island of Ireland.

Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. Ó Muirigh faoi sin.

I have just one last question. A year or so ago I brought a number of victims of the Glenanne gang to Government Buildings to meet the then Taoiseach, Micheál Martin. It was stated at that stage that the Garda, maybe because of some legislation or regulation, was not providing all the documents necessary for investigations in the North. Has all that been cleared up? Are there any blockages in evidence or information being provided to investigations in the North?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

As regards the Garda, I am not involved in the cases to which the Deputy refers. As a result, it probably would not be proper for me to comment on that. I just do not have the knowledge or information on that, unfortunately, so I cannot help Mr. Tóibín with that question.

No problem. Gabhaim buíochas le Mr. Ó Muirigh faoi sin.

I just have one more question for Mr. Ó Muirigh. It is about the Good Friday Agreement. We know that the European Convention on Human Rights is the scaffolding for the Good Friday Agreement. How does he feel about the passage of the Legacy Bill, which is so obviously a violation of Article 2? How does he think that will impact the Good Friday Agreement? Can he say a bit about that?

Mr. Pádraig Ó Muirigh

Absolutely. The human rights ethos is ingrained in the Good Friday Agreement. Reconciliation with and respect for human rights are central to the key objectives and goals of the Good Friday Agreement, and I feel that this legislation is the first step to the British Government's withdrawal from the European Court of Human Rights. That, ultimately, is its objective, and that will be devastating for the Good Friday Agreement. We have seen it with the issue of immigration and the approach to Brexit. Some of the decisions of the Supreme Court were challenged by the Government, and the right-wing media referred to the judiciary as "enemies of the people". This is all classic right-wing autocracy. We see it in other autocratic countries where the judiciary is attacked. A judiciary is a key bulwark against excessive use of powers by the executive.

There is a bigger picture here. I referred earlier to a deliberate collision course that this Government is on with the judiciary on rights-based issues. We see it in the right to protest as regards the Palestinian issue as well. In recent years, there has been a mission creep around rights. The Government would actually welcome a challenge, even a negative announcement or decision, from the Supreme Court where it can point to the judiciary impacting its democratic manifesto to implement X, Y and Z, which was passed in the election and supported by the people. That is the kind of language the Government is talking. There is a real danger that this Act is only the start.

I did a Zoom call with students from Sheffield about this legacy issue a number of months ago. They made commentary about this being devastating for families in the North of Ireland. I warned them that this is much bigger and also their problem because this is perhaps the start of a withdrawal from the European Court of Human Rights and that, if that was the case, it is devastating for legacy families but it involves much wider political damage for the Good Friday Agreement. It is a key element of it. Such a withdrawal from the European Court of Human Rights or the Human Rights Act being repealed would be not only quite a bad political move on the part of the Tory Government, it would also be devastating for the peace process.

I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh again for the work he is doing.

I thank all the contributors so far. I thank Mr. Ó Muirigh for his analysis. I am really impressed by the way he makes his arguments. I am also impressed by the logic and the certainty of them. I assure him and anybody who might be listening in that this committee is of the exact same mind as to what the Government should do as regards the European Convention on Human Rights and the need for the Government to take that action. I have no doubt that that is happening under a due process. I do not believe - and I know nobody is suggesting this - that somebody is trying to delay. I am happy that the due process is in place.

Today is the 51st anniversary of the abduction and murder of Jean McConville, on 7 December 1972, in Belfast. She was a widow and a mother of ten children and she was buried in an unmarked grave for over 40 years without anybody identifying the place where she was put. If anything touches my heart, it is that, along with all the victims Mr. Ó Muirigh so rightly and properly included in his statement. This committee went and saw where Columba McVeigh was abducted and murdered and left in a bog in Monaghan 48 years ago. No body has yet been found. The pain of the families on all sides by evildoing and appalling acts like that absolutely cries out for justice. As regards anybody who has knowledge of the murders of Jean McConville, Columba McVeigh or all the other people who died in this awful tragedy, over 3,500 people, we need reconciliation, truth and justice, but justice must be seen to be done on all sides. Everybody is entitled to that, and I support absolutely what Mr. Ó Muirigh is saying here today. I appeal to anyone, particularly those in the IRA or former republicans, who know about where Columba McVeigh was brought or who can identify that location. We need more information because we are talking about acres, miles, of bog where he is buried. The family are entitled to a due and fair process. They are entitled to be able to bury him in the family grave, and that is all they are asking for. It is incumbent on all the people who committed these crimes in the North that the truth comes out and the families get closure.

I laud and support Mr. Ó Muirigh's contribution and work. The committee is fully behind what he has said today. I thank him again for his professionalism, commitment and integrity.

It has been 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement and, thankfully, the guns are silent and some parties are participating in an elected process. Obviously, there are people not allowing the Northern Executive to work. The North-South bodies are in abeyance and the east-west improvement in this regard is welcome. We have much work to do and the contribution Mr. Ó Muirigh is making is hugely important. I thank him for that.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.50 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14 December 2023.
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