Joint Committee on the Implementation of the Good Friday Agreement díospóireacht -
Thursday, 18 Jan 2024

PEACEPLUS Programme: Special EU Programmes Body

An Cathaoirleach

We are now in public session. I pay tribute to a former clerk of Oireachtas committees, Mr. Paul Kelly, who passed away. He was a very dedicated servant to all the parties and served as the clerk to several committees. I chaired one of those, the transport committee. I propose a vote of sympathy to his family and especially to his partner, Julie.

I understand Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile has retired from the Oireachtas. On my behalf and that of the committee, I wish him well and good health. He was a very valued member of this Oireachtas committee. Bhí sé ag úsáid na Gaeilge i gcónaí agus is mór dom na díospóireachtaí a bhí againn le chéile. We will miss the Senator's contributions.

We move to the business of the meeting. I welcome our visitors. Joining us from the special EU programmes body, SEUPB, to discuss the PEACEPLUS programme, we have Ms Gina McIntyre, CEO, Mr. Paul Beattie, director of the managing authority, and, online, Mr. Mark Huddleston, PEACEPLUS joint secretariat interim director. I thank them all very much for attending.

I must read the note on parliamentary privilege. I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses and participants who are to give evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts does. They may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings should be given and that they should respect directions given by the Chair and the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against any persons or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Before I call Ms McIntyre to make her opening statement, I will explain a few small matters. Speaking time rotates between the parties. The rotation will be a speaker from Fianna Fáil, followed by Sinn Féin, Fine Gael, the Social Democratic and Labour Party, SDLP, Independents, Sinn Féin, the Alliance Party and so on. Each party or individual has ten minutes for each segment of questions and answers, which will be more informal in that it will be concerned with information and understanding and trying to gain an appreciation of any difficulties the special EU programmes body may have.

Ms Gina McIntyre

I thank the committee for the invitation to be here. It is a great pleasure to be here to talk about the implementation of PEACEPLUS.

PEACEPLUS is a cross-Border funding programme designed to promote peace and prosperity across Northern Ireland and the Border counties of Ireland. This year represents a significant milestone for the SEUPB as we celebrate our 25th anniversary with the largest funding programme in our history. Over the last 25 years, the SEUPB has managed a number of EU investment programmes, including the PEACE and INTERREG programmes. Through these initiatives the EU, alongside the Governments of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Northern Ireland Executive, has helped to support the peace progress in Northern Ireland and the six Border counties. The €3.39 billion invested through previous programmes has funded more than 23,000 projects and touched the lives of more than 2 million citizens.

We are working on the closure of the current PEACE IV and INTERREG VA programmes. All activities for those projects ceased on 31 December 2023. Eight projects are yet to fully conclude. These are mainly capital building projects that were delayed significantly due to the impact of Covid-19. They have a programme of activity to complete in 2024, which they are undertaking at their own expense as the funding programme has ceased. We are working on the administrative closure of all other projects with a view to maximising the reimbursement of EU receipts from the programmes.

The PEACEPLUS programme will continue to provide this vital support to Northern Ireland and the Border counties, with an investment of €1.14 billion. This spending will focus on embedding peace and promoting prosperity across the region. This investment is vital because building a peaceful society must go hand in hand with building a prosperous society, one that is addressing the challenges of today and looking towards the future and a society that gives all its citizens a stake in that future.

The focus of PEACEPLUS is broad and ambitious. The programme will not only support established peacebuilding initiatives, such as reconciliation and relationship building, but also deliver outcomes across the whole of society through investment in our young people to improve their life opportunities; encouraging the social economy and entrepreneurship; developing community leadership; investment in the economy through support for research skills and life-long learning; investment in rural and Border communities through regeneration and re-imaging and access to services; creating iconic spaces in new and vibrant town centres and villages; supporting smart towns and villages; and supporting the health and well-being of our citizens with equality of access to services. There are also environment protection activities, transportation links actions, Covid recovery actions and mitigation of some of the impacts of Brexit that occur.

Everyone in the programme area has the potential to contribute to a more peaceful and prosperous society. Individual investment areas, therefore, have been designed to optimise engagement and participation across all ages, communities and sectors and thus ensure the maximum contribution to peace and reconciliation in the programme area. A small grants programme has been built into the thematic areas, which will see funding reach similar and smaller groups and organisations to deliver good relations impacts in and between communities and across the Border.

Each local authority has been given an allocation of funds based on deprivation and population statistics. They must submit a plan to outline how they will spend the funding and this plan must have demonstrable evidence of co-creation with the community.

The really hard-to-reach groups need to be given a voice and an opportunity. This has to be a home for everyone. It is well understood that over the past 25 years, the most badly impacted communities during the conflict and violence, which were also the most deprived, have seen the least improvement. PEACEPLUS will focus on ensuring that all communities, traditional and new, are respected.

A more innovative culture is being fostered across the programme area. There is an opportunity to build upon the positive cultural shift and to invest in high-level research and innovation initiatives and to facilitate commercially-driven partnerships involving the programme area's best researchers and companies of all scales. The SEUPB is encouraging applicants to look at new emerging technology and digital solutions. The programme will invest in our children and young people and in confidence building, skilling and supporting through peer groups. It will build on the current models of mental health support, which provide accessible, age-appropriate early intervention and recovery activities and which are delivered on a cross-community and cross-Border basis. This will result in an increased number of resilient young people with the level of capacity required to be in control of their own lives and to make a positive contribution within their communities.

PEACEPLUS will impact individuals' lives and has been designed to address specific areas of need such as outcomes focused on mental health and well-being. The persistent issues of cultural trauma and the cycle of past hurt are addressed by supporting activities to counter the trauma through art, music, storytelling and sport and by addressing hurt through discussion groups. Intergenerational trauma in this region is highly prevalent and this has been addressed at all sections of society. Citizens demonstrate high levels of trauma and unfortunately, you only have to look at the horrifically high rates of addiction, suicide and violence recorded to recognise it.

The PEACEPLUS programme will present an opportunity to develop a strength-based model that will enable and empower rural communities to reach their full potential. An investment will contribute to the creation of thriving rural communities, thereby delivering significant social, economic and environmental benefits. Protection of our natural environment will be supported. As biodiversity is the variety of life and is crucial to human life, we are supporting activities in that range. We are also looking at the marine area, which comprises all marine waters, including seabeds, subsoils, sea loughs and tidal rivers. In addition to economic benefits, the marine and coastal environment provides important societal benefits through the ecosystem, including waste assimilation, coastal defence, carbon absorption, recreational heritage, fisheries and aquaculture.

There is an opportunity to address the legal and administrative obstacles associated with the Border and there is a high level of interest from administrations, statutory agencies and organisations in how they can address some of the specific challenges and build networks with a purpose for the future. Applicants from outside the area can also become involved in the programme. From all across the island of Ireland, they can partner with organisations within the programme, between the two islands, across Europe and globally. We are encouraging that; it is a wonderful opportunity for organisations that have a natural link in sectors to be involved in the programme projects.

The first round of the PEACEPLUS funding calls opened in June 2023 and since then, a total of nine thematic calls have opened for applications and I believe a tenth call is opening today. All the information and resources for making an application are available on our specifically designed support portal and additional information and guidance has been provided through a series of PEACEPLUS roadshows and workshop events. The first round of PEACEPLUS funding was announced on 12 December. The funding was awarded under investment area 3.2, empowering and investing in our young people, with a total of €45 million being awarded to six projects made up of partners from across the youth sector across Northern Ireland and the Border counties of Ireland. That will specifically support capacity building programmes for young people aged 14 to 24, who are disadvantaged, excluded or marginalised and who have deep social and emotional needs.

More funding announcements, in the region of approximately €50 million, are expected at the end of February and we have a schedule of funding calls throughout 2024. This timetable is available on our website and I would be happy to come back at any time the committee would like in the future, as more activity and more funding calls are rolled out. New calls are advertised extensively through both local and national press and online. We are also exploring the potential for complementarity, working with other large-scale funders, including the shared island unit, the Department of Rural and Community Development, the International Fund for Ireland, the city and growth deals and other Government Departments. We have had an initial workshop with all of those funders in 2023 and we will be progressing that next month as well, to consider various options for co-operation.

PEACEPLUS is an enormous challenge, not least in relation to the resources within the SEUPB. This is a programme that is now twice the size of what we currently have and we are also closing that programme. There is a gap developing between the size and the scale of this programme and the staffing resources we have within the organisation. Unfortunately, this is also heavily predicated on the existence of the North-South Ministerial Council to make decisions on our staffing. Although it is an enormous challenge, we are working through that and we certainly will do our best because we see this as a tremendous opportunity, which we are very grateful for, and we want to roll this out as successfully as we can, taking on lessons learned from the past programmes and ensuring that we are here to support the applicants to do the work that is so badly needed. We recognise there is a great deal of work to do, but we are excited by the prospect of seeing the enormous impact the programme will make. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Ms McIntyre for a comprehensive presentation.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I also welcome Ms McIntyre, Mr. Beattie and their colleagues. That was a very exciting statement and Ms McIntyre's concluding remarks referred to the need to have the political institutions working in the best interests of all the people, North and South. It is a good challenge to have to be able to spend money and I have no doubt but that you and your colleagues will be up to it.

This is our first committee meeting since the death of Jacques Delors, former President of the European Commission. He was instrumental in supporting the initial PEACE programmes and the Cathaoirleach will recall that at that time, the late Albert Reynolds, as Taoiseach, involved people in politics, particularly those from the Border region, in making suggestions as to the kind of PEACE programme that should be established. It is important that we recall the work of the late Jacques Delors, the late John Hume and the late Albert Reynolds in putting in place the first initial programme. Ms McIntyre has outlined that €3.39 billion has been spent, predominantly in the Border counties, North and South, in giving a range of new services and facilities to communities and in really making a huge difference over the years. She outlined the great depth and width of this particular programme, touching every facet of life. It is really heartening to hear that and that €1.14 billion is to be spent over the next few years. It is a very substantial amount of money and I am sure that it will make a difference in our communities.

I am glad that Ms McIntyre referred in particular to the very hard-to-reach groups, as that is an issue that concerns this committee all the time. Programmes are designed and oftentimes, the better resourced communities, that is, the communities that may have a greater level of employment and of affluence, can be in a position to prepare good applications to draw down funding within the programme. I have a concern in this regard. Quite rightly and understandably, there is a demanding application process. It is public money and we all want to see it put to good use and wish to see good applications come forward. Is there assistance for groups that are not well resourced to prepare applications? At times, it can cost money to hire somebody to prepare an application. Some of the groups I am thinking of that should be benefitting from this programme might not have the resources to put together a worthwhile programme that will meet the SEUPB's application criteria. If some assistance could be given to some groups in that respect, it would be important. As Deputy Tully would be aware, the local authority in our own county has a PEACE programme officer who assists different groups and prepares applications for our own local authority. I presume that is reflected in other areas as well.

We all know, particularly those of us representing Border communities, how beneficial the initial PEACE programme and its successor programmes have been in developing community facilities and in developing small enterprise units that gave rise to employment, as well as in assisting youth programmes and cross-Border youth programmes in particular. Ms McIntyre also mentioned that there may be some supporting activities to counter trauma through art, music, storytelling and sport. Is the provision of new or upgraded sporting facilities, or both, eligible for funding under this particular programme? I think oftentimes, we do not give enough importance to the value of sport in bringing people together and in providing an outlet for people by providing necessary recreational and sporting facilities for people of all age groups. I mean recreational sporting facilities not just for young people but for people of all age groups. I would appreciate some clarification on that.

Ms Gina McIntyre

I thank Deputy Smith.

We have a programme of predevelopment support for all applicants. Over the past year or more, before the programme was approved and opened, we ran a series of workshops, including an information workshop, in all the different areas that were opening for calls. After that, we put in place capacity for somebody to help potential applicants to access the programme. They dealt with potential applicants and decided whether the programme was applicable for them, whether there was a different theme they should focus on or a different programme they should look at. They tried to give them some support because the Deputy is quite right, there are some organisations that do not have the capacity. We tried to ensure there was enough time for organisations to prepare. Also, a better quality application to us is a better quality project for the longevity of the programme. We have seen the benefit of that and have heard from applicants about how this really helped them to think about areas they had not thought of before. Some of that also involved partnering up with others. I will ask Mr. Huddleston to speak further on that.

There are other areas that are useful for those groups that do not have much capacity. First, the local authority council plans must be created with the community, down to the district wards. There must be evidence of co-creation. When there is a specific need in an area, then it should come forward into the action plan with the local council and come forward to us, because they have an allocation of funding that is not competitive. The other area for smaller groups is, as I mentioned, small grants. They are not that small and are up to approximately €100,000. We hope to rename the cross-community and cross-border grants as the "change-maker funds". Under theme 1, there are cross-community small grants available of up to €100,000. Under theme 6 there are cross-Border grants. The cross-Border ones are for exactly what it says; they are to encourage and strengthen links across the Border, to look at the challenges and to create new networks and links going forward. The cross-community grants, in theme 1, are focused on peacebuilding activity, but it can be in any sector and groups can apply as many times as they wish. A small group might want €50,000, they might just want €5,000. That would be more administratively straightforward. They are going to be managed on our behalf by Pobal, together with a Northern Ireland delivery partner. Hopefully, they will roll out in March or April. A big impact will be seen on the ground of those small grants, because they will be much easier. In relation to sport and facilities, we have always funded sport and facilities. In and around Cavan, there is the sports link facility. Deputy Smith is quite right, the impact of sports on relationship building is within the remit of the programme; it is so important. We accept, both in the capital round and the shared spaces, that there are areas for it within the small grants, the rural regeneration and the local authorities. We are not averse to funding sport and facilities. We see the benefit of that. Does Mr. Huddleston wish to add anything in relation to predevelopment support?

Mr. Mark Huddleston

In recognition of what has been said about smaller groups and groups most in need finding it the hardest to access the programme, we are trying to signpost these groups towards our larger potential lead partners, as we call them in the programme. We ran a series of roadshows and found that the smaller groups were openly discussing these challenges. That gave us an opportunity, particularly if it related to skills and the old INTERREG-type activity related to prosperity, to link them in with the colleges in Northern Ireland or with the education and training boards, ETBs, in the Republic of Ireland. We drew them together through that, which started to give them an opportunity to engage and they certainly have found their voice through that activity.

Deputy Pauline Tully

I welcome the witnesses to the meeting. PEACE funding is something that I am familiar with over the years because I come from the Border County of Cavan and have been involved with community groups in the past that have accessed such funding. As Deputy Smith referred to, Cavan County Council had quite a number of applications. Its biggest problem was it had too many applications. While some may not have fitted the criteria, even when those were weeded out some were looking for quite substantial amounts of money. I acknowledge they tried to look at other funders to come in as well as with the big projects, there is no point in giving them a certain allocation and hoping they get the funding otherwise. It must be ensured they get the full amount of funding going forward. I wish to ask Ms McIntyre a number of questions. At the beginning of her statement, she referred to a number of projects that were not completed from the last round of PEACE funding and that have activity to complete in 2024, which they are doing at their own expense. Am I correct in understanding that such projects cannot apply for PEACEPLUS funding to be completed? Yes. That might be difficult for some of those projects.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Those projects all have known for some time that they may not have been able to complete and the majority of those are council-led. The councils have given their support that they will complete them. A lot of them are small amounts of money at this stage. The capital is finished and the activity will only cost a couple of hundred thousand. They have already committed to that, and they knew they were going to be running against the timescales.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Does Ms McIntyre know the total allocation for the PEACEPLUS funding? Has a total amount been allocated? Is it only open for applications in the coming year, or will it be extended into 2025, 2026 and beyond?

Ms Gina McIntyre

For the PEACEPLUS funding?

Deputy Pauline Tully

Yes.

Ms Gina McIntyre

The total programme value is €1.14 billion.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Okay.

Ms Gina McIntyre

It runs from now until 2030. We are rolling out the calls and we have a schedule of the timetable of calls on our website. The majority of calls will be rolled out this year. We intend to stagger the small grants. Over the two areas of small grants funding, there is about €40 million. We might do €10 million this year, €10 million next year and €15 million the following year, so that it is not all gone in one-go. It also allows for some of the projects to do some exploratory work, pilot work and introductory work and then come back again at another time.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Okay. That was my next question. Can they come back for-----

Ms Gina McIntyre

The programme will be running for a few years.

Deputy Pauline Tully

Okay.

Ms McIntyre talked about the hard-to-reach groups and that it is important to reach out to them. I agree with her How does she envisage that will happen? If they are hard to reach, they are hard to reach. What mechanisms will be used to try to reach groups? We have heard in this committee about different groups that have not had their voices heard throughout the conflict and since.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Mr. Beattie may expand on this but we did some work just before the programme opened on how we could engage with those groups and what were the challenges as to why they were not coming forward. In the current round of calls and applications, we are making sure the applicants have used some of those tools to ensure they have some of the harder-to-reach groups involved, particularly in the youth sector. There are a lot of young people who, if left with no support, no network and no mechanisms to engage, can end up in anti-social and paramilitary activity. We try to focus on how we engage with the youth. As for activities for everything else, we look for new communities to be involved, as well as bringing forward the hard-to-reach-groups that have not become involved. In theme 1, under building peace, in some areas some single identity work is required to enable some groups to get to a position to be able to do cross-community work. We have allowed for some single identity work that leads onto cross-community work. Also, we have looked at community leadership because a lot of leaders within communities have reached an age where they are retiring or have moved on and we need to bring in and engage the younger people to ensure we are bringing forward those hard-to-reach groups. We have included all of these types of investment areas in theme 1. Does Mr. Beattie wish to add anything?

Mr. Paul Beattie

On the small grants front, we did a bit of engagement work, probably about a year and a half or two years ago. It was piecemeal, scratch-the-surface stuff. The groups that we engaged to do the work had contacts in the wider community and it was about identifying some of the barriers to them coming forward to previous European funds.

Sometimes it is administrative, community background or they just do not want to know. The 500 quid from the local council is much easier to get. We have earmarked the sort of groups we want come to forward under this programme. We have engaged much more with councils on both sides of the Border to say the small grants are coming. You cannot do small grants under current local authority programmes but we expect a co-design process to be in place to attract a lot of smaller groups which have not been involved before. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. In the first year a lot of already-knowns will come forward, but the osmosis of those grants trickling out over the next couple of years should attract more groups. We are going to engage what I call a boots-on-the-ground organisation which has to go to open tender. We know the sort of applicants that might come forward so I will not say much more. They are organisations with close-to-the-ground community linkages. We will never capture everybody but I think on this occasion we will capture as many as we can.

Ms Gina McIntyre

It has been designed in such a way that there is funding to try to access those hard-to-reach groups. We will make an effort to do that and to ensure all applicants do that. The small grants will allow people to have a first experience with the programme and, as I said, perhaps also with the single identity work allowed for those groups. That should help.

Mr. Mark Huddleston

On the assessment process, we have strengthened the horizontal principles applied to an application to ensure more standard applicants are reaching out beyond their normal partners. The horizontal principles cover four key elements: respect for fundamental rights, equality between men and women, taking steps to prevent discrimination, and promoting sustainable development. Within each of the calls, we emphasise certain elements to support that. So far, in the applications that have come in and the areas in which we have applied funding, a lot of the applicants have recognised that and strengthened their engagement with those who may previously have been under-represented in our programmes. We have areas that look specifically at equality and social inclusion, justice in systems and institutions, and infrastructure and the physical environment. That element covers theme 5 particularly, with some of theme 2. The other two cut across most of the other elements and investment areas. That is a difference in how it was applied. The weighting of those in assessment is also much higher.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

We only have a minute and a half left so maybe I will come in on the next round.

An Cathaoirleach

That is fine.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I welcome the opportunity today. I was looking forward to this session for months and the information the witnesses can give us. We are excited about the opportunities and what can be done under this programme. I welcome the CEO of Galway Chamber of Commerce, Mr. Kenneth Deery. It shows the huge level of interest. I welcome the people watching online today to see how we can make this work. Does the lead partner have to be from the North? No. It can be any of the local authorities. Let me get this right: any of the local authorities across the country can be involved in this. Does it have to come through the local authority or can local community groups engage directly with Pobal and the special EU programmes body? Will the witnesses explain that process? If there is a women's group watching today from County Cork, how does it go about engaging with the special EU programmes body? I went on the portal while the witnesses were talking. I advise everybody to sign up to the portal to get the information and notifications of when the different streams are on board. It is very useful and user-friendly. How can a women's group in County Mayo - we will pick Mayo, not Cork - engage with this process?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Everybody should sign up for our portal. On the application process for all applicants, the programme area is Northern Ireland and the Border counties. Theme 1.1 concerns allocations specifically to councils. Every council - all 17 in the Border areas and in Northern Ireland - was given an allocation based on a deprivation and population index. Groups can engage directly with the council as part of the development of the plan.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

To be clear, this is not just the Border counties. It is local authorities across the country.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Theme 1.1. is specifically for Border counties and Northern Ireland councils. If groups are in those areas, they can engage directly. All of the other areas are completely open to applicants from anywhere. It can be any organisation in that particular sector that has the capacity to manage a programme. There are enterprise, environmental and health themes and all of the different agencies and organisations that are normally in those areas are getting involved. They can be a lead partner.

The European Union has an instrument in its programmes called functional areas. That means it does not require an application to include everybody from Northern Ireland and the Border counties, which is the programme area if there is a natural link. "Functional area" is a bit of a strange name. It basically means that if there is a sectoral interest and a group, like a women's group from Mayo or Cork, naturally deals with somebody in Northern Ireland on visits or it wants to do an exchange visit or something like that, it can get involved with that group. Between them, they can make an application. The proviso is that the majority of the benefit from the programme has to be for the citizens of Northern Ireland and the Border counties.

We have applicants in the INTERREG programme in the area of the environment and the marine from Cork and America. They are contributing and are part of the project because it is a natural link. It is a wonderful opportunity, especially with the North-South and east-west links. It means people do not have to force a partnership. If there is a natural partnership, for example, between a youth group in Dublin and Belfast and they want to do some work together, they can make an application and do it, especially through the small grants. Small grants would be the vehicle for the likes of women's groups or the smaller groups about which the Deputy spoke because it is much more simple administratively and straightforward and they will get a lot more support. They will roll out for years to come. There will be opportunities for them to test it, build on it and build again. If a council, for example, Galway, which has a strong field in the SME support sector, wanted to make an application - it may want to get involved with Invest Northern Ireland - that is perfectly fine as long as the majority of the benefit goes to the citizens in Northern Ireland programme area.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Is there a minimum or maximum amount for small grants? What are the timelines? Is there a less bureaucratic process for smaller grants than for very large ones?

Mr. Paul Beattie

This is in train at the moment. There will be a shorter application. We have to operate within certain rules but there will be an administratively less burdensome claims process and in how we give the money out to groups. Guesstimating, we reckon most of the grants will be from £20,000 to £50,000. It can go up to £100,000. At the minute, we think the lowest will be about £10,000. Paperwork comes with this, and there comes a point at which it becomes too burdensome when you get down to £5,000 or £1,000. This will not work unless it is simpler but we still have to work within a set of EU rules.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Could the special EU programmes body co-fund with LEADER?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Technically yes, but we do not. For a lot of the projects we do not have LEADER in Northern Ireland any more.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

If LEADER part-funded a project, would that prevent collaboration across the Border?

Ms Gina McIntyre

No.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Would something like community education, for instance, or twinning of projects, fit into that? If there were a community education project in Mayo and one in east Belfast, would that work?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Possibly, yes. Maybe in that case to which the Deputy referred, specifically looking at strengthening cross-Border links, learning from each other and sharing best practices would possibly work.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Could there be a situation where half of an apprenticeship programme would be running in, say, Mayo or somewhere in the South and half in the North, where there could be that flow between?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Mr. Huddleston may want to come in on that. On a small project scale, it is really about the linkages. If it is cross-Border linkages, we do not mind what sector they are in or what activity they are doing, whether it is woodwork or knitting, training or sports or whatever. It does not matter what it is. It is about the linkages and bringing people together. We would perhaps advise that it might not be that half of the apprenticeships would be trained down here and there. They might be trained together but just use different venues. The detail would be up for discussion with the people who would administer the small grants. However, the small grants will be run, as Mr. Beattie said, in a much more administratively straightforward way and treated a bit more like a service than a grant in terms of how people access their payments and show they have been successful.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

What would be the first port of call for a private enterprise that sees an opportunity for research and development or whatever else?

Ms Gina McIntyre

That would be seen too and we have not released the calls yet for the SME support. They are working on those funds now. We do not give direct support to SMEs because they cannot access direct support of more than 40% in terms of benefiting because they are private sector, but what we are doing is dealing with the likes of Enterprise Ireland, Invest Northern Ireland, InterTradeIreland and those organisations that offer the support. We give them the funding and then they provide the indirect support to the SMEs. Does Mr. Huddleston want to add anything on that?

Mr. Mark Huddleston

Yes. We are building on some of the knowledge from a direct 5A activity and the support we gave there. There are two specific areas which are particularly SME-focused, but they can have from small businesses right down to micro-businesses and through to large enterprises take part. Theme 2 is where they are focused and 2.2 is our innovation challenge fund. The only stipulation we have specifically is that there is a cross-Border partnership created and, along with that, a research institute that is based within the programme areas as part of that. That does not preclude those outside the programme area taking part and supporting that as long as the benefit is delivered within the programme areas. That has seen a lot of interest from the institutions both in higher and further education on both sides of the Border and we have seen some interest in partnerships develop there.

That is thrown over, so to speak, into 2.3, which is the skills investment area, where again we are seeing interest in cross-Border partnerships developing both in higher and further education. We are seeing the new institutions such as the ATU on the west coast becoming a real key player in that activity as well. It has that great understanding of what the need is on the ground in key sectors and we are trying to reach beyond that. A desire of the Department, DFHERIS, is to see those that have been most impacted by Covid-19, such as in hospitality and tourism, for example, or those likely to be most impacted by new technology and AI being supported, and both organisations are very keen to see that the delivery partners are from across the island and not in the programme area as well.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I am glad Mr. Huddleston mentioned that because that was going to be one of my questions around the ATU and the very good work that is being done in Donegal in the partnerships there. I see really good results coming from that, so it is very good to have this fund that is able to support that work. I ask about the programme's animation and the capacity for reaching out. The ideal thing would be to go to all the local authorities in the State and explain to the councillors what the programme is and what their opportunities are. What resources do the witnesses have within their own organisation? Are they confined to a percentage of the overall programme? Is that the way it works?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes. We have technical assistance which is an overall percentage of the programme, but as the Deputy can imagine, given the scale of the programme, it is large. We have a large administration budget. Unfortunately, we do not have an NSMC sitting at the minute, and it makes decisions on our staffing. We had a staffing review that indicated we needed much more staff to roll out this programme effectively and efficiently within the timescale because it is running behind, and we cannot get that decision made. Therefore, we are relying on temporary resources and that is not sustainable from a corporate point of view either in terms of governance or knowledge retention. We do use external people to help us to roll out some of the information but the committee members are looking at the resources that do a lot of the engagement directly with councils. We have been running a series of roadshows. We had about six running up to Christmas time. We run adverts and use social media a lot but regarding, as Mr. Beattie described it, boots on the ground and getting out, we are doing what we can in the series of calls and are hoping, particularly in the small grants, that Pobal and the Northern Ireland delivery partner will be able to do a lot more engagement within the communities as well. However, there is a gap developing in our numbers and how fast we can roll the programme out and conclude the other ones.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I can see that is a real challenge. I used to work in the LEADER programme so I am aware of the value of that. It is okay to refer to the hard-to-reach people but they take time, resources, dedication, patience and all of those things. The temptation if you are under pressure and do not have the resources is to go with the ones who are less labour intensive and that is what you do not want to do.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Exactly.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

Has Pobal got a dedicated section? I will contact Pobal after the meeting around this but does it have a dedicated section to make this work for people here and how is it resourced?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Pobal has a dedicated team which is working very closely with Mr. Beattie's team on developing the administrative framework for it all. To make it simple for applicants, there is a lot of work we have to do. Pobal has a dedicated team and a budget to go with it.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

That is probably all my questions for now but I appreciate the witnesses' offer to come back to us as this evolves. I hear what they are saying regarding the North-South Ministerial Council. Is there anything we can do as a committee to support what they are doing to get the resources we need to be able to implement all of this effectively?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Awareness of the scale and the problem we have at the minute is the first thing we can give the committee. The Deputy is quite right. We want to make sure we roll this programme out. It is a lot of money and we want to make sure we are making an impact with the investment and roll it out to those groups that need it. The Deputy is absolutely correct. We have no shortage of applications or interest but we are trying to make sure we reach those groups. If there was any political influence that could be used regarding the re-establishment of the North-South Ministerial Council, it is important to realise that the absence of the council is having a practical effect on all of the North-South bodies, not just us but in all different ways, and then do whatever can be done.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

I have one final question. I really see the one single identity work that needs to be done as the pre-development work, if you like, and it is important to have the flexibility to be able to do that. In a post-conflict situation and when looking with programmes like this to build whole communities where everybody's needs are reached, and in addressing post-traumatic stress disorder and the mental health supports that are needed, which may be different for different cohorts within a community, is that something that can be considered under this programme?

Ms Gina McIntyre

We do have it within the programme. We kept all the sectors very flexible. We have not tied down any area and said that it can only deliver this or that. We have kept it flexible so it is about the relationship building. In post conflict, we have realised how important the community is. It is about the community working with the statutory agencies and the statutory agencies and the government departments listening to the community and the needs. As Mr. Beattie said earlier, the communities know who the most vulnerable in their areas are. We are trying to ensure that, particularly in areas like health, rural regeneration and small grants, communities are given the opportunity to really tell us and to set up activities around what is really needed because they do know. What we have seen time and again - unfortunately, we have seen it recently - is that the community gets cut first from this funding even though these are the people who will make such an impact in a post-conflict society and a post-traumatic society. In the mental health aspect, we are very much focused on intergenerational trauma. There are a lot of studies which we have taken on board. Therefore, there is quite a significant amount of money in theme 3 particularly for young people for mental health and trauma. We have seen the impact of that. I mentioned earlier the small grants, in particular, in areas such as arts, storytelling and sharing experiences within communities. We really want to try to push those in the small grants and peace building because that is what helps people's mental health, too. A lot of people do not think they are affected mentally. They probably do not think they are affected from Covid but they are. We are trying to get those people to realise that they can be part of a local community group. Areas like that and actions to mitigate some of the post-conflict and intergenerational trauma are very much in the programme.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

If a group like that is making an application, would it make it directly to PEACEPLUS?

Ms Gina McIntyre

It depends on the size of the group. If it is a decent-sized group that knows how to manage public funds and has the access and the resources, then it can make a direct application. Mr. Huddleston has over 70 applications already from groups like that. If it is a smaller group which is not so familiar with this, it should go to the smaller funds. That would be through Pobal and the Northern Ireland delivery partners.

Deputy Rose Conway-Walsh

That is really good. Thank you.

An Cathaoirleach

I know Deputy Feighan wants to come back in but I want to call Mr. Huddleston.

Mr. Mark Huddleston

I will follow up on that question briefly. The victims and survivors service application under theme 4, investment area 4.3, is well through assessment at the moment. There is some innovative activity there and a broader reach into the entire programme area is being driven through that. Youth mental health, which Ms McIntyre mentioned, is also well through assessment. There is a huge opportunity because we are still finishing the call document under theme 1, investment area 1.3, which is building positive relations, to address some of the challenges that were just mentioned and reach those communities that we might not have reached before right through to those we have engaged with largely in the post-conflict legacy, like ex-prisoners and ex-security service personnel. There is something coming to the fore, and an ongoing strategy is being developed in both jurisdictions. Yesterday, the joint secretariat team met and was presented with information by the Executive office here in Northern Ireland around the ending violence against women and girls strategy here in the North. We are looking to see how we can further build that type of strategy and support that type of activity and work, which is needed in a post-conflict era in Northern Ireland.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

First, may we send our condolences to the family of the late Tony Lloyd, MP for Rochdale? Tony had been an MP since 1983, previously in Manchester, and served many times as a minister in UK Labour Party Governments. He was also shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland from 2018 to 2020. He was just a great guy. He was a great listener. He was on the all-party parliamentary group on Ireland and the Irish in Britain. I want to send our sympathies to his wife Judith, his children and grandchildren, his colleagues in the UK Labour Party and his colleagues in the House of Commons. He was a good guy and he did an awful lot to foster good relations between Ireland and the UK.

I thank everyone for coming in here today. It is hard to believe it is the 25th anniversary of the establishment of the North-South bodies. They have supported the peace process in Northern Ireland and the six Border counties. I have just realised I am a TD for three of those counties, Donegal, Sligo and Leitrim. North Roscommon was not included. I see the great work they have done over the years.

There are one or two issues I would like to raise. Everyone else has raised the hard-to-reach communities. I have noticed, in my interactions with community groups and politicians in the North, that we seem to be missing a beat in marginalised and disenfranchised loyalist and unionist groups. I know it is very difficult. Even after 25 years in politics, I find it hard to understand all the various layers of bureaucracy that have to be gone through. It is one aspect. I have put some of those groups in touch with the shared island unit. I am not sure what has happened but do our guests keep in touch with the shared island unit? I am sure there are different ways of operating. Where there are many local authorities, some can be very good and some may be not as good.

Second, I read how there are 120 participants in shared education. Will the witnesses outline what exactly that is? I have an interest in shared education in the North.

We are very proud of Atlantic Technological University, ATU. It is the first time we have had a university north of the Dublin-Galway line. I think of the difference it will make. St. Angela’s is working very closely with other universities in the North. Is there more we can do in cross-Border education? We are doing a lot but is there more that can be done?

Finally, hospitality is a huge issue, certainly in my constituency. We have stepped up to the mark in the challenge of accommodating Ukrainians who have fled war but it has caused a dearth of hospitality venues, hotels, etc. What can PEACEPLUS do? It is one aspect on which it works closely with others. It will be very difficult to attract investment or investors because of the cost of building a hotel. To me, a hotel is a piece of social infrastructure. I know there are one or two areas where it may be possible to get involved in community-based hotels. A lot of money has been put into the public realm but I come from a town that simply does not have a hotel and has not had a hotel for 12 years. No outside investor will come in. It will be very difficult to come in and build that hotel although it is a tourist area. Is there anything we can do? If we do not have that hotel, we do not have people staying in the rooms. We do not even have a place to go for coffee. It is something we are missing. I have been on to my own Government a few times.

It is now a piece of social infrastructure and a lot more needs to be done.

I thank the witnesses for the great work they do. They have a difficult job. As politicians we all need to work together, across parties and across the Border, to come up with opportunities to help them to spend the interesting pot of money they have. They have made a huge difference. I thank them again for coming in today.

Ms Gina McIntyre

We have been doing a lot of work with those hard-to-reach groups. The purpose of the scoping study Mr. Beattie referred to earlier was to see what the challenges and obstacles are and to examine how we can help. We have projects that involve a lot of ex-combatants and ex-prisoners. They work together from all sides and do a lot of good work trying to encourage people, especially young people, not to get involved by letting them know what the impact was on their lives, families and generations to come when they got involved. They do a lot of very good work and we will do more, as Mr. Huddleston said. We are pushing this in every application and, particularly, in smaller grants for single identity work. Those calls have not been rolled out yet. We will be pushing ways to get those people to get involved with us. Whether it happens this year or next year, there will be an opportunity. It will take time. We will be looking at that.

We work closely with the shared island unit and all the major funders. We co-ordinate with one another on who is getting applications from who and direct people to go to different funders, depending on the nature of their work. We work closely and I hope we will be collaborating more - we met them yesterday - on practical projects in the coming year or two.

The current programme on shared education has been a real success for us. In formal education settings, 312,000 pupil school years were put through the current programme. It basically involves children sharing classes, teachers training together and parents getting to know one another. It has been successful. For parents who do not want to send their children to integrated schools, in particular, this is the first step. Believe me, it is not easy for some parents to get involved in the shared education programme. They say their children go to a particular school and they do not want them to mix, but it has been successful. We have seen instances of families coming together who are now friends. They go to each other's parties and socialise together. Those are the spin-offs from shared education. We want to keep that going so it is rolling out. Mr. Huddleston is dealing with the applications for the shared education programme in both formal and informal or youth settings at the moment. In the PEACE IV programme we only focused on school settings or formal education and there was a big gap in shared education in the youth sector. Mr. Huddleston is dealing with that at the moment.

We have a huge investment in transport links under investment area 5.6, in increasing the Belfast-Dublin Enterprise train to an hourly service and in reducing the time it takes. That is with a view to the electrification of the whole railway down the east coast. We do not have any plans on the west coast at the moment, unfortunately.

Deputy Frankie Feighan

We have a lot of greenways.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes, we have a lot of greenways and they are lovely and good. A couple of them will be finished under our current programmes, namely the north-west greenway network and the Carlingford Lough greenway.

On hospitality, we wrote the programme before the war in Ukraine. We kept it flexible for post Covid-19 pandemic recovery, but we did not know what was coming down the tracks. We looked at retail and tourism in particular. We knew they would be badly affected and tried to see where they could get involved in the programme. There are areas written into the programme specifically for tourism and hospitality. They are specifically mentioned under upskilling, reskilling and new skills; under the rural regeneration theme; and under smart towns and villages, which opened today. We talk a lot to the tourism sector, because it needs to get involved. Under investment area 6.1, we have an administrative approach to reducing any legal obstacles and challenges along the Border. There is a lot of interest in that and a lot of work can be done in joint marketing strategies for tourism. We speak to the sector quite often.

We do not plan to fund any hotels because they are normally private enterprises so that is not included in the programme. The Deputy mentioned a potential hotel run by a community centre. That could potentially come through under the rural regeneration theme or perhaps under the one that opened today, smart towns and villages. Social inclusion and rural isolation are part of those two themes so perhaps something could happen there.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Currie.

Senator Emer Currie

Do we have additional time?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, there is no problem. I will speak if you like. I will respond to the point made about Ukrainians. It is a different issue from the one we are discussing, but I have been doing some research while I have been listening. There are approximately 90,000 Ukrainians in the South and one third of them are working. A significant number, I think it is 10,000, are in the hotel and catering industry, including in cafés and so on. They are making a significant contribution to our economy. I will ask a question in a constructive way. We need to make sure we integrate the new communities North and South as much as possible. It is difficult when they have a different language and culture and are fleeing war. How important is that to the witnesses in their work and how do they reach out and ensure increased integration and contact as best they can? It is becoming a hot issue in the South and much of it is based on misinformation. The witnesses will be aware of the words we all think of, but there is a huge antipathy, which is unwarranted and unacceptable. We have a duty to look at that in a constructive way under the North-South issue. Does the special EU programmes body have any view on that?

Ms Gina McIntyre

As I said, the programme was drafted before the war in Ukraine, which has had a significant impact as regards the number of people who have had to take refuge here and the cost of living. The hospitality sector has been even more decimated now because of the cost of keeping restaurants, hotels and other facilities going. There is room in the programme, but it is not explicit because the programme was written before the war. The new communities were always important throughout the entire programme. When we say "cross-community", we include the new communities in that. It is not the traditional communities in Northern Ireland based on religion - all the communities are involved. We record ten different categories of community background when people get involved with projects because we recognise that new communities play a big part.

An Cathaoirleach

I appreciate the widespread public communications to the media and so on. Does the special EU programmes body communicate in different new languages as well?

Ms Gina McIntyre

We have not done that because we have never been asked for a translation. The Border counties had a lot of good experience of embedding the Syrian community when it came so we encouraged the Northern Ireland authorities to talk to the Departments and to gain experience from their southern colleagues in the councils. In all our applications, we encourage people to engage with the new communities so we encourage projects to include the costs for translation services and for any issues that are causing a barrier to people getting involved.

It could be very simple ideas such as funding for making sports kit available for some of the new communities to get involved. We are pushing that at all times across the programme.

An Cathaoirleach

Another point is that about one third of the Ukrainians are children. That is a huge cohort as well.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Absolutely.

An Cathaoirleach

They may not have a father or other male figure in their household because, obviously, they are fighting a war. It is very welcome. Mr. Huddleston wanted to come in.

Mr. Mark Huddleston

Since the start of the year, we have fully engaged with the Executive Office in Northern Ireland and we are going to reach out next week to their counterparts in the Republic of Ireland. As we develop Investment Area 1.3, which is building positive relations, we have looked closely at the Northern refugee and asylum support and integration strategy for Northern Ireland, which is still in development and which, with no executive, cannot be implemented. We believe there are ways we can use the PEACEPLUS funding and, in particular, Investment Area 1.3 to address some of the challenges. We do not have the same numbers but the numbers the Executive Office has given us suggest we are looking at about 3,000 to 4,000 Ukrainians as well as growing and high numbers of asylum seekers. We have a large Syrian community, for example, that is growing. While the numbers have slowed down somewhat, the Department is keen for us to try to support that. We are fully engaged with it, whether in respect of capacity building or further activity that will build positive relations for those new communities, recognising, as the Chairman said, that a lot of them have integrated themselves very quickly, especially in the case of the Ukrainian community, and found work in the North as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Is there a board?

Ms Gina McIntyre

No, it is just us.

An Cathaoirleach

I do not mean this to be a negative question, but how does the body manage, say, EU ideas along with those of the Irish Government and the British Government in a constructive way, given they put up the money? What sort of vigilance do they exercise over what the body does? I am not sure of the phrasing.

Ms Gina McIntyre

The Chairman is referring to governance arrangements.

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, that is the term I was thinking of.

Ms Gina McIntyre

We have many masters, namely, the European Commission, the Irish Government, the executive when it is there and the Northern Ireland Office, NIO, of the UK Government, which is now much more involved because it has put in UK money through the EU programme. When we were designing the programme, it was based on a socioeconomic needs analysis for the region, but everything had to align to government policy, that is, all those different government policies. I refer to this as a Venn diagram of all those policies, and the bits that overlapped were where we designed PEACEPLUS. That is the content of the programme, carried out very much in conjunction with all the partners involved, all of whom had to approve it through respective government agencies. Our sponsoring Departments, namely, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform and the Northern Ireland Department of Finance, are represented at this meeting to give support, not to keep a watchful eye. They are in daily contact regarding the governance of the programme, and we work with all the Departments, North and South, that partner up on different areas of the programme. The money and the policy direction come through them and we constantly report back to them.

An Cathaoirleach

Are there audits of all activities?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

That is good.

Looking at it from the outside, value for money is one issue but we cannot measure in money terms the improvement of the community or the changes. How does the body independently evaluate the impact of what it is funding?

Ms Gina McIntyre

I might just finish the previous point before I move on to that. We have a programme monitoring committee, which is a de facto-type board for oversight of the programme, and it includes representatives of the member states, the NIO, the European Commission, business, trade unions, the community and so on. They all sit on that and we meet twice a year, so there is an oversight board for the programme.

On evaluation, we do a lot of evaluative work and we are in the middle of setting up 12 evaluations that we will run on all the different aspects and areas of the programme, starting with a baseline study. We are also putting in place a monitoring and evaluation tool over and above what we have for the running of the programme.

An Cathaoirleach

Is that evaluation internal or external?

Ms Gina McIntyre

All the evaluations are external, carried out on all the themes.

An Cathaoirleach

Very good. That is important.

Ms Gina McIntyre

We have to admit that in the past we have not been as good at recording impacts, outputs and so on. There was probably more of a focus on targets, outputs, numbers and money, and we realised we have fewer stories about the real impact of this money on the ground. We have on our website a PEACE platform, which has collected all the projects that have been funded from PEACE since the start. It shows case studies and evaluations by sector, so they could relate to the women's sector, training, youth, the business sector or projects that have been funded over the years. More than that, an item of work we are really pushing for ourselves to get involved in now relates to recording the impact. Some work has been done on the impact and Mr. Beattie has brought to the meeting hard copies of that report, which is also on our website. We need to start talking about the benefits, the impacts and the outcomes of this money and less about the numbers of projects.

An Cathaoirleach

Absolutely. It is about the quality of the results. Obviously, they can be hugely beneficial and people might not be aware of it.

My final question is about the process. If I apply and am refused because I do not meet all the criteria, which is presumably a constructive response whereby help is then given to make a better application, is there an appeals process thereafter? I do not suggest there is not any transparency.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes, we are very transparent in that regard. This, too, was an issue we tried to address in this programme with the pre-development support. A lot of organisations went through a lot of work and pain to make an application only to find out they were not even relevant, and we felt very sorry for them. In other cases, they missed the mark in some regard, perhaps because they did not include enough about peacebuilding and focused too much on sports, for example. That is the whole purpose of the pre-development support. We have a person who will engage with them. They give us a two-page concept note outlining a brief idea of their project, and we can then advise them as to whether this is or is not for them, whether it should be submitted in respect of another fund or area and what they need to do, and that is what we have been doing with that and through the workshops to try to give people one-to-one advice.

So far, what we are seeing from the applications and the calls that are opened is that there are a huge number of very good applications, and our problem is going to be that people who have really good projects will be turned down because we just do not have the money or the budget remaining to allocate it all. There is an appeals process, but that focuses on cases where there has been a fundamental process error or an ridiculously unreasonable decision.

An Cathaoirleach

It sounds as though the body is very hands-on and as though the whole idea is to be inclusive. Is the figure €1.4 billion to run until 2030?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

If an applicant does not qualify this year, therefore, or if there is an excess of applications, the application will be moved to the next year. Is that it?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes, that is what we do.

An Cathaoirleach

The body has a list of projects that are coming onstream. Is that correct?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Exactly. In the recent youth call, six projects utilised the budget that was available. We have other projects which are really good and, on any other occasion, would have been funded, which are held on a reserve list, in the hope and potential that maybe money is not spent somewhere else and we transfer it there.

An Cathaoirleach

It seems that the witnesses have made a fantastic input, they are aware of all the issues and that they are changing all their systems to be even more inclusive or to extend the help that they can offer to people. I am very impressed with what they are doing.

Senator Emer Currie

Can I attach myself to the sympathies that have been expressed in the meeting? This is the first meeting of the committee since my Seanad colleague, Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile, stepped down. The Senator and I could disagree vociferously on the past and present.

An Cathaoirleach

Same here. He is a great guy.

Senator Emer Currie

We worked together on common issues as well, including, most recently, the electronic travel authorisation. That is reconciliation in motion. I thank Senator Ó Donnghaile for his contribution to this committee and also to the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. He will be missed.

An Cathaoirleach

We agree totally with the Senator. We all concur with her very accurate, honest words.

Senator Emer Currie

I wanted to put it on my record and to say it to my Sinn Féin colleagues too. I hope he is well.

I welcome the witnesses. I have some questions for them that I will hopefully be able to get through. I welcome this opportunity to engage with them. It has been 25 years of this much-needed investment in the North and the Border regions. The witnesses are doing a fantastic job in our communities, which speaks for itself. I do not envy the position they are in with regard to the scale of this fund and trying to reach as many communities as possible.

My first question is about the sport element. Sport does not seem to have a huge role in the shared island unit funding, for instance, and the reconciliation funding that is available. There is levelling up, but that is for the Six Counties, whereas this is an opportunity for more cross-Border co-operation. I have received quite a few queries about larger scale capital projects for sport. I was advised that the only relevant category was "1.4 Reimagining Communities". It closed on 7 September. The sporting organisations did not really know about it locally and have missed that opportunity. Some 36 projects applied, so the demand obviously reached a significant number of people. There was much interest in it. We are only in 2024 and it was closed in 2023. It is €75 million for ten projects. I have also heard that might be it until 2029 and that the fund may not reopen.

Where is the opportunity for other sporting organisations, which I think fit in the vision of capital investment that lifts a community that may not have had investment or investment opportunities brought to them? They may have taken opportunities of their own accord. It would be a focal point for any community. It obviously brings people together. We have seen in the North how sport connects well with health and wellbeing. It goes above and beyond that in bringing communities together, with a sense of togetherness, health and well-being. I hate to see these opportunities missed. Are there other opportunities for sports capital or is that it?

Ms Gina McIntyre

At the minute, that is probably it for category 1.4. We were subscribed and we are allocating that money. That is not to say that at some point in the future if there is another area that does not spend, as I was saying in reply to the Cathaoirleach, we might move money to that. We would obviously move money to where it is going to spend best. However, capital builds are notoriously difficult and slow. That is why we have eight left over at the minute that are yet to finish. We are already running behind on spending deadlines and targets. We have to spend a certain amount every year to keep in line with the Commission targets. We have to look at those projects that can spend within the timeframe we have for the programme. There are other areas with potential for rural development, which is category 4.3, and potentially for the social inclusion aspect. We can match fund in programme activities. We fund many sports projects and the majority of capital projects we have funded have an attached sports facility. The ones we have that will open this year include the Monaghan Peace Campus, though it does not actually have a sports facility, the Clones Peace Link, the Girdwood centre, the Waterside Shared Village in Derry or Londonderry. All of those projects have significant sporting facilities in those areas.

Regarding rural areas, I think the only thing would be through the council's local action plan if it thought there was an opportunity to invest in capital, or through the rural development programme. We would have much activity in sports through the regional projects. That is about to open. As Mr. Huddleston mentioned earlier, they are working on that call for regional development. We can fund and have funded all of the agencies coming together and doing much work. It has to be more than just the sport itself. There has to be the wellbeing aspect. More than that, it is a PEACEPLUS programme. It contributes to peacebuilding too. It means bringing the communities together and maybe doing an activity of reconciliation work. That is not always as easy to do in a facility where people are just using the facilities and leaving. Most of the agencies would have known that the money was there. Many applications are in. Many related to sports facilities.

Senator Emer Currie

It would be good to see further opportunities for sports because, like we have said, the bodies that are in the know know how the witnesses operate, but they want to reach the not-so-familiar bodies too. I have found it is quite complicated going through the whole programme. What do the witnesses do to try to simplify it for people? I know my way around a funding application but I found this one particularly challenging on a tight timeframe.

Ms Gina McIntyre

The scale of it is very broad. It has all the different areas and sectors. If the Senator goes to our website, she will see on the portal that we have navigation pages, as we refer to them, along with all the pre-development work, the workshops and roadshows that we were doing. We went around six council areas before Christmas. There will be adverts on how to apply. The website has navigation pages, whether for business, community, health or tourism. I think there are eight or nine of them.

We always say when we go out and are talking about it that people should not just look at the area they think is specific to their sector based on the title. We ask them to use the navigation pages because they tell people about all the different areas across the programme that people can apply to.

Senator Emer Currie

Are they case studies?

Ms Gina McIntyre

No. We want to support business, for example, so it shows all the areas within business that people can think about applying to. It could be in skills, in the direct SME support, research and development, through the local council plan or reskilling in the skills programme, or in rural regeneration. We are encouraging social entrepreneurship and social economy through all that as well. It will tell people every single area in the programme they can look at that might be applicable and it is the same for community, sports and art.

Senator Emer Currie

The impact of the absence of the North-South Ministerial Council was mentioned. We hear that a lot. Can Ms McIntyre give me an example of a project that has been affected and has not been delivered or has been stalled or maybe has not been at the scale it should be? Can she give me an example we can point to in order to say things would be different if the North-South Ministerial Council was up and running? Ms McIntyre mentioned her organisation's resources, for instance.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes.

Senator Emer Currie

It must impact on those resources, but does it go further than that?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes. I will speak on behalf of all the North-South bodies in response to that. It goes further for us when it comes to resourcing. We could have said we do not have the resources to roll out PEACEPLUS because we have not had a decision made that gives us the staff we require to roll this out and we are doing the best we can with what we have got. Our sponsor Departments have been very supportive in allowing us to put in temporary arrangements and see what we can do. They are very supportive in that regard, but there is only so far we can all go with no ministerial decisions on staffing. We could have said this is a crisis moment and we cannot roll the programme out, but we would not do that. We will just do what we can. It may take a bit longer, but we will do what we can.

Senator Emer Currie

It is really the SEUPB's commitment to the programme that is going to make it work.

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes.

Senator Emer Currie

We have heard from Waterways Ireland as well about the impact the absence of ministerial decisions has on it when it comes to resources. I wonder if the public needs to hear about projects that cannot be delivered because of our not having a fully functional North-South Ministerial Council for effectively seven years, between all the stops and starts.

I have one other question, slightly linked to what the Cathaoirleach asked. We have had claims in this committee before about public funding potentially going to groups that are linked to paramilitaries. How does Ms McIntyre navigate that in her organisation? Is it on her radar, in that she does not want money becoming bad money?

Ms Gina McIntyre

It is of course on our radar. I will just finish on the North-South bodies. If the Senator really wants project examples of what she referred to, she should speak to the other North-South bodies because there are governance issues arising in relation to boards and projects that are not being delivered within some of the North-South bodies because they do not have the revenue to do it. There are repairs not happening on some very important areas. Ours is resource-specific at the minute and all the other bodies will have very specific projects they can probably tell the Senator have not been able to be delivered because of lack of decision.

On the paramilitary influences, it is probably less obvious on the large projects because most of the organisations coming forward there are well established. They are statutory agencies in some regard or they are youth groups that are very well established, so they are not the issue. We know there will be some of the council work, but the councils know who they are delivering the money to and what is required in the local area. It is all about knowing where the line is between the hard-to-reach group and the money, as the Senator says, becoming bad. That is a challenge for us now, particularly with the small grants. We will be looking at that. It accounts for a lot of the work Mr. Beattie and his team, working with Pobal, do. Looking to see how we can make this more administratively simple is a very difficult, complex area. It is about putting in place safeguards for public funds, exactly as the Senator said. We are alive to that issue.

Senator Emer Currie

I thank Ms McIntyre. I also thank the Cathaoirleach for the extended time.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

The witnesses are very welcome. Fáilte roimh. As it is the first meeting of the year, I wish everybody a happy new year. I thank Senator Currie for her very kind words, which I will pass on to Niall if he is not watching.

First of all, I love Zoom. I was listening to the meeting the whole way down the road. I was at a picket line in Dungannon before I left this morning, so I also want to extend solidarity to all the public sector workers and everybody on picket lines today, including the staff of Waterways Ireland, because of the situation we are in. It really is an untenable, disgraceful situation in terms of the comments Chris Heaton-Harris and others have made around withholding that money from public sector workers. Things are generally not good in the North as the witnesses, who are all very welcome to this meeting, know.

Deputies Conway-Walsh and Tully have covered quite a bit of what we wanted to say, but I have a question for Ms McIntyre. I understand the need to have some single-identity work to build capacity. However, at what point does that single-identity funding stop? At what point do they have to seek partners and have to work? In my constituency there are groups that have got funding over the years and sometimes the polarisation is worse than it was 25 years ago. We have had 25 years of peace, yet in some areas that polarisation just gets deeper by the year. I am aware of one group that has received public funding, a single-identity group, and a young man who is in the band landed to band practice with his GAA bag and was told not to bring any GAA stuff in there and that he had to choose. He said the GAA was not asking him to choose, so he went with it. He left the band, which was not a nationalist-identity band. That was victimisation of a young fellow who was trying to enjoy both sport and music and ended up being ostracised from one community because of his passion for GAA. How do we tackle that? How do we ensure that is a focus for the next period? As I said, that polarisation is worse now in some areas than it was when I was first elected in Fermanagh and South Tyrone and it is deeply worrying.

Ms Gina McIntyre

It is. It is especially prevalent in rural communities. The single-identity work we are talking about is very specific. The programme is a PEACEPLUS programme and everything must be either cross-community, cross-Border, or both. The single-identity work will have to demonstrate to us a pathway to moving towards cross-community. We would not be funding the likes of a band that was single-identity and saying it might be bringing somebody else in. We would not be doing that. It would probably be work that was required between the churches, for example, which wanted to do a bit of work between themselves to lead on perhaps to doing a cross-community event. It would therefore be very specific and could not be just, as Ms Gildernew said, that type of example.

We recognise there are a lot of people who just do not know how to make that step because they are not even reconciled with their own community. It is about how we get them to move along a few footsteps to even reconcile with their own community and to engage further to allow them to go out and engage on a cross-community basis. It is really deep work. It would not be just somebody saying they are going to do something and it might be single-identity in the meantime. It would not be that. We would be really interrogating what they were going to do and how they were going to drive themselves forward to do cross-community work, if we were to fund single-identity projects.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

If I have time, how does Ms McIntyre see Britain having left the EU impacting on the work of the SEUPB and what it does? It will not impact in the North, but are there barriers and challenges to the organisation it has identified already?

Ms Gina McIntyre

Yes. We are very lucky with the programme in that the UK has put in what would have been its normal EU contribution through the European Regional Development Fund, ERDF.

The programme is secure in that we can deliver on it and all the authority is in place to do that.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

For now or-----

Ms Gina McIntyre

For the length of the programme.

Ms Michelle Gildernew

Okay.

Ms Gina McIntyre

We are seeing challenges arising from groups in Northern Ireland that no longer can be part of, say, an association that they were normally connected with in the South on a European basis because they do not have that access anymore. We are seeing deregulation in areas and that is why we have included within the programme theme 6.1 which is removal on addressing the legal and administrative challenges of a border. That is where many of the challenges arising on Brexit can be mitigated. There is a huge level of interest in this area. It could be to do with recognition of qualifications, an all-island approach to certain issues, migration issues, air quality or whatever. We are seeing that people are finding ways to deal with the challenges of Brexit, particularly through theme 6.1.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I thank the committee for the opportunity to contribute today. I welcome the witnesses. It is always great to have them here because it gets us thinking about what we can do for our communities and see how we can get more money for things. The debate here is always really positive and we learn so much.

I want to go back to what Senator Currie said about not having the Executive up and running and Ms McIntyre mentioned that she could have not gone through with what she is doing. Is there a point where one has to stop or one is curtailed? Ms McIntyre knows what she is doing, she knows her brief, she knows what is to be done and she has been doing it for 25 years. Is there a point administratively where she is curtailed and stopped and things that are awarded under these points could actually not be getting money at a point? Are we afraid of that happening?

Ms Gina McIntyre

No, it would not be that we would be stopped in that regard. We rely on the goodwill of our staff to be very flexible, and they are. They take on extra challenges and they are closing those programmes, which have now stopped being current, and are dealing with the roll out of this one. If we had more staff, we could do it better and faster. We could be rolling out all of our calls, but we cannot. We are staggering them and we are using a lot of external support, through the help of our sponsor departments. We are having to engage contractors to do work. That is not sustainable in the long run because we are losing corporate knowledge there and we are relying on people who we have to have oversight of. The biggest challenge is that, yes, we could have done things faster. We want to make sure the programme is delivered as best as possible but we are curtailed in how much we can actually do in a day and what our priorities are.

The risk, I suppose, is potential loss of funding at a future date if we do not get the programme rolled out as quickly as we can. If we do not get people helping the projects that are funded to spend quickly and deal with problems as quickly as they can - because we have spend targets every year - and the money is not spent at a certain time, we lose it. That could be our biggest challenge in the years to come, but at the moment we are all doing what we can to make sure the money is getting out there.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Much the stuff that I wanted to ask about has been covered. Ms McIntyre spoke about the areas of deprivation and how different moneys was awarded to different areas. If there was an area that did not actually submit a grant application for anything in the PEACE funding, is there an avenue for an intervention, let us say, for an area, and we recognise a place, that did not have the capacity to submit anything? It is cumbersome and it can be very daunting for a community group or anybody. It can be so much money and even the smaller grants of, say, ten grand upwards can be very daunting. If it is identified that the capacity is not there in an area of deprivation, what can a community do if it is struggling and it sees this pot of money? The community wants it but it just does not know how to go about getting it.

Ms Gina McIntyre

The new monitoring and evaluation tool which we are bringing in will identify those areas. Mr. Beattie will explain a little about this.

Mr. Paul Beattie

We would map where money goes anyway. That would generally be the main address of the applicant. This time around we are hoping to map where some of the recipients will be. Not everyone will engage with this but it should be able to highlight white spots on the map fairly quickly. That will then allow us to go in do a bit of intervention work thereafter. That does not guarantee success either but - and I do not want this to sound like a tick boxes exercise as it is not like that at all - at least we will have gone in and tried afterwards to mop that up and get that interest. That will be ongoing during the life of the programme but there will still be gaps at the end.

Ms Gina McIntyre

It will allow us to look at the map and see that, say, a particular village has had nothing, whether it is to do with sports, community or health, and does not seem to be benefitting from anything. The smaller grants will be rolled out over a few years and there will be an opportunity to go in and do interventions to identify what is needed in certain communities and ask why they have not engaged with their council.

Senator Erin McGreehan

Theme 1 seemed to me to be the most open for community groups with the reimagining communities initiative. I know the closing date for it was last September. Senator Currie touched on this as well. It seemed to be a really positive avenue. A few groups locally in Louth have come to me about this. They say that they fit into certain boxes and have the potential for cross-community and cross-Border things but they do not know where to go if they cannot access theme 1 because it is closed now. Those types of projects might fit into the category of building positive relationships but if it is infrastructure and capital perhaps they might not. Are there any other avenues for those? Theme 1 was a very open, very community oriented, low-level, high-impact, grant.

Ms Gina McIntyre

The thing about 1.4 is that the programme is effectively running two years behind schedule. All of the programmes across Europe are a year behind - they are always a year behind by the time they are approved. This one has an additional delay because of the finance agreement that was being put in place between the UK and the EU, along with Ireland. When we looked at the capital projects - as we referred to earlier - we had to learn lessons from the current programmes. One of the lessons was that if the project does not have its planning permission in place or its site aligned already, we know it is not going to achieve the capital build within timeframe. As a result, we had to put certain criteria in place for things like "planning site established" to make sure we could actually spend the money.

Groups in Louth should talk to the council. Each council has been given a sizeable allocation. We started with a baseline where we gave each council €1 million. For example, Sligo County Council, which covers quite a big area, did not end up getting as much money as some of the other councils, based on the deprivation of population index. We learned from that and gave each council €1 million and then the additional allocation on top of that. They all have a good allocation and I would strongly recommend that people speak to them. There is room for a small element of capital building within the council local action plans as well if there is a driving need for it. In some of the other areas we can co-partner. We can pay for the activities in a project if people can get the capital somewhere else.

Senator Erin McGreehan

I thank Ms McIntyre very much and wish her the very best of luck.

An Cathaoirleach

Everybody has made a contribution. I thank the witnesses for their patience in answering all the questions in such detail.

Their fund is an important one. It has survived Brexit. Notwithstanding the political differences between the UK Government and the EU, it is remarkable that such co-operation and commitment continues. I wish the witnesses all the best for the future. I also welcome their esteemed colleagues to the meeting. We are impressed by their interest and by the support from all Departments, North and South, from the UK and from Europe.

We will adjourn until 1 February. We will have two private meetings before that date, though, so we are not disappearing.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.41 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 1 February 2024.