Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 15 Feb 2023

Future of the Media Sector: Discussion (Resumed)

Chairman

This meeting has been convened today with representatives from Conradh na Gaeilge, the Joint Creative Audiovisual Sectoral Group, the National Campaign for the Arts, Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, and Sport Ireland, to discuss future business model plans and long-term vision for the media sector with a focus on the Irish language, culture, creative economy and sport. This is the committee's fifth engagement on this topic and on behalf of the committee I warmly welcome the witnesses to committee room 2. I welcome Julian De Spáinn, the general secretary, ard-rúnaí and the advocacy manager, bainisteoir abhcóideachta, Róisín Ní Chinnéide, Conradh na Gaeilge. We are also joined from the Joint Creative Audiovisual Sectoral Group by Sarah Glennane, chief executive officer, Screen Composers Guild of Ireland; and James Hickey, Screen Producers Ireland.

I warmly welcome the newly-appointed chair of the National Campaign for the Arts, Ms Maria Fleming. I congratulate her on her appointment and look forward to engaging with her on the committee. I also welcome Mr. Victor Finn, chief executive, and Ms Lisa Ní Choisdealbha, director of licensing and public affairs, IMRO. Finally, I welcome Dr. Una May, chief executive, and Mr. Fergus Hannigan, marketing and brand manager, Sport Ireland. I hope I have included everybody there.

I have to go through little bit of housekeeping now. The format of the meeting is that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements, which will be limited to three minutes. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. As our guests are probably aware, the committee may publish the opening statements on its website. Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I wish to explain some limitations in respect of parliamentary privilege and the practice of the House in respect of references that they may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the House, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I also remind members of the constitutional requirements that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate at the committee's public meetings. One cannot, therefore, attend online or outside of the precincts or the member will be asked to leave. I propose now that we proceed with the opening statements in the following order: Mr. de Spáinn, Ms Fleming, Mr. Finn and finally, Dr. Una May.

Mr. Julian de Spáinn

I understand that the simultaneous translation is available today.

Chairman

Yes, it is.

Mr. Julian de Spáinn

I will, therefore, deliver my speech in Irish. A Chathaoirligh, a Theachtaí Dála, a Sheanadóirí agus foireann an Chomhchoiste, gabhaim míle maith acu as an gcuireadh le bheith ina láthair inniu chun labhairt maidir le pleananna i gcomhair múnlaí gnó sa todhchaí agus an fhís fhadtéarmach le haghaidh earnáil na meán.

Ba mhaith liom sa chur i láthair a dhéanfaidh mé don choiste inniu cur síos a dhéanamh ar mhúnlaí gnó agus fís fhadtéarmach a thógann an Ghaeilge san áireamh mar dhlúthchuid díobh. Is fiú dom, mar sin, tosú le beagáinín comhthéacs ar cá bhfuil an Ghaeilge sna meáin trí chéile faoi láthair.

Ní bheidh iontas ar an gcoiste a chloisteáil, táim cinnte, agus mé a rá nach bhfuil a dhóthain le feiceáil nó le cloisteáil as Gaeilge ar na meáin trí chéile in Éirinn. Chomh maith leis sin, as an ábhar atá ar fáil as Gaeilge, níl mórán rogha ann do phobal na Gaeilge agus na Gaeltachta agus dóibh siúd le spéis an teanga a chloisteáil agus a úsáid níos mó.

Ó thaobh na teilifíse de, tá rogha de bhreis is 300 stáisiún teilifíse ar fáil in Éirinn don té atá ag iarraidh féachaint ar ábhar teilifíse as Béarla. Chomh maith leo siúd, tá ardáin eile ann ar nós Netflix, Prime agus Amazon a chuireann méid mór ábhar ar fáil ar réimsí éagsúla spéise don phobal as Béarla. Don té atá ag iarraidh féachaint ar ábhair as Gaeilge, tá TG4 ann agus beagáinín de sholáthar as Gaeilge ar RTÉ. Tá an freastal ar ábhar spéise do dhaoine le Gaeilge, mar sin, an-teoranta go deo.

Ó thaobh an raidió de, tá trí stáisiún as breis is 70 stáisiún sna 26 Contae ag craoladh trí Ghaeilge. Astu sin tá ceann amháin dírithe go príomha ar phobal na Gaeltachta, ceann eile ag craoladh i mBaile Átha Cliath le ceadúnas pobail FM, agus níl an tríú stáisiún, atá dírithe ar dhaoine óga, ag craoladh ar FM go leanúnach. Tá seónna Gaeilge ar chuid de na stáisiúin eile ach, don chuid is mó, bíonn na seónna ar siúl ag amanna neamhshóisialta, amanna nach mbíonn mórán den phobal ag éisteacht leo. Arís níl ach rogha an-teoranta don té le Gaeilge nó ag iarraidh an Ghaeilge a chloisteáil.

Ó thaobh nuachtán agus irisí de, níl ach dhá nuachtán iomlán Gaeilge ann: Tuairisc.ie agus Nós.ie atá ar fáil ar líne amháin, agus forlíne amháin agus cúpla alt seachtainiúil sa 70 sa bhreis nuachtán eile sna 26 Chontae.

Chomh maith leis sin, níl ach ceithre iris Ghaeilge as an 200 sa bhreis iris atá ar fáil agus bíonn ailt ó am go chéile ag líon fíor-bheag de na hirisí eile. Níl rogha fairsing in aon chor ann d’aon duine atá ag iarraidh a gcuid spéise ó thaobh nuachta nó ábhair iriseoireachta eile de a léamh as Gaeilge.

Cá bhfuil muid ag iarraidh go mbeidh an Ghaeilge agus cén ról atá ag na meáin leis sin? Is é cuspóir an Stáit, mar atá leagtha amach sa Straitéis 20 Bliain don Ghaeilge 2010-30, an líon daoine atá ag úsáid na Gaeilge go laethúil a ardú 80,000 duine go 250,000 duine. Ní hamháin sin ach ba mhaith leis an Stát go mbeidh dhá mhilliúin duine le Gaeilge ann, is é sin ardú ó 1.78 milliún.

Creideann Conradh na Gaeilge go bhfuil ról nach beag an na meáin le spriocanna an Rialtais a bhaint amach agus le húsáid na Gaeilge i measc an phobail agus sa sochaí a normalú. Mar theanga domhanda, tá sé rídheacair dul i gcomórtas leis an mBéarla ach tá sé níos deacra fós nuair nach bhfuil soláthar ceart sásúil sna meáin in Éirinn le freastal ar phobal na Gaeilge, na Gaeltachta agus dóibh siúd gur mian leo níos mó Gaeilge a fhoghlaim, a chloisteáil, nó a úsáid.

Ó thaobh múnlaí gnó de, táimid airdeallach ar chinneadh an Rialtais gan glacadh leis an moladh ón gCoimisiún um Thodhchaí na Meán chun na meáin phoiblí a mhaoiniú go lárnach agus tá siad chun an ceadúnas teilifíse a choinneáil. Táimid den tuairim, áfach, gur gá infheistíocht shuntasach bhreise a dhéanamh sa Ghaeilge agus sna meáin trí chéile, is cuma cén múnla a bhaintear úsáid as amach anseo.

Tá roinnt moltaí againn ar an maoiniú breise a shíleann muid gur chóir a chur ar fáil laistigh den chóras maoinithe reatha nó gur féidir leis an Rialtas a mhaoiniú go lárnach amach anseo. Sna moltaí céanna, tá cuid acu nach mbeadh aon chostas breise i gceist ach bheadh gá cur chuige a athrú leis an nGaeilge a chur san áireamh. Is iad seo a leanas na moltaí sin:

Ba chóir go mbeidh buiséad de €100 milliúin ag TG4 le seirbhís iomlán leathan Gaeilge a sholáthar don phobal. Bheadh an maoiniú seo ag teacht leis an maoiniú a

cuirtear ar fáil do S4C sa Bhreatain Bheag.

Ba chóir go mbeidh 15% den bhuiséad ag RTÉ curtha ar fáil do chraoltóireacht Ghaeilge le cinntiú go mbeidh réimse leathan de chláir ar fáil trí Ghaeilge ar níos mó ná stáisiún amháin. Tá thart ar 7.5% de bhuiséad RTÉ ag dul ar chraoltóireacht na Gaeilge faoi láthair, idir RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta agus cláir theilifíse Gaeilge atá sé, den chuid is mó.

Ba cheart go mbeidh €1.6 milliún curtha ar fáil leis an stáisiún raidió Gaeilge don aos óg a chraoladh le ceadúnas cuasai-náisiúnta FM agus ar ardáin eile ar fud na tíre

Ba cheart go mbeidh €1 milliúin sa bhreis ag Foras na Gaeilge le dáileadh ar na meáin Ghaeilge reatha a mhaoiníonn siad, le Tuairisc.ie, Nos.ie agus Raidió na Life san áireamh.

Ba cheart go mbeidh béim ar iriseoireacht na Gaeilge a spreagadh in aon chiste tacaíochta a chuireann coimisiúin na meán ar fáil amach anseo.

Ba cheart go mbeidh coinníoll ann i ngach conradh nua nó in aon athnuachan ar chonradh a chuireann Údarás Craolacháin na hÉireann nó coimisiúin na meán ar fáil amach anseo le líon áirithe craolacháin a dhéanamh trí mheán na Gaeilge i rith amanna sóisialta.

Ba cheart go mbeidh béim ar iriseoireacht na Gaeilge a spreagadh in aon chiste tacaíochta a chuireann Coimisiúin na Meán ar fáil amach anseo

Is é Moladh 7-2 ón Choimisiún um Thodhchaí na Meán ná: “Ba chóir don BAI/Coimisiún na Meán athbhreithniú cuimsitheach a dhéanamh ar sholáthar seirbhísí agus ábhair Ghaeilge ... ". Tá sé sin le teacht. Ba chóir tús a chur leis an athbhreithniú sin gan mhoill ach níor chóir go mbeadh an t-athbhreithniú seo úsáidte le moill nó stop a chur le forbairtí gur féidir bogadh ar aghaidh leo láithreach bonn, ar nós buiséad TG4 a mhéadú nó Raidió Rí-Rá a chur ar FM nó eile.

Mar atá molta cheana-----

Chairman

Tá brón orm, a Uasail de Spáinn ach gabh mo leithscéal, but it is three minutes speaking time for each speaker and his contribution has gone way over the limit. I ask him to pause there. We will move on and I am sure he will get the opportunity to continue in some other format, when the questions arise later, to finish out his statement and, to in some other way, have that information communicated. I thank him very much.

I ask Ms Glennane now to make her presentation, please. I remind our guests that each presentation is limited to three minutes.

Ms Sarah Glennane

The Joint Creative Audiovisual Sectoral Group would like to thank the committee for its invitation to attend today, and for their attentive interest to the idea of the content levy to date.

As the committee will be aware, the content levy industry group was formed in 2020 to advocate, pan-industry, on the specific issue of the audiovisual media services directive, AVMSD, content levy. We will keep our submission today to this topic.

The committee have been significant supporters of our campaign to get the content levy introduced into Ireland and we can see the benefits of this support through the recently passed Online Safety and Media Regulation Act.

As part of the legislation that will govern the new content levy, as outlined in today’s document, some of the welcome highlights include: new rules governing IP ownership; ensuring independent producers are attached to projects; and much needed funding for project development. The inclusion of the option to create a content levy of the type that the sector has been advocating for within the Online Safety and Media Regulation Act was welcomed, as is the commitment within the Future of Media Commission Report: Implementation Strategy & Action Plan, to progress with further consultation and analysis.

While these are important developments, we would once again underscore the urgency of these considerations converting to action and much-needed additional funding.

As outlined within our submission and today's briefing document, many other countries across Europe are in the process of creating investment funds by the creation of a levy and it is critically important that Ireland does not lag behind and lose out.

The reality of the action plan recommendations could mean that the levy is not up and running until the third and fourth quarter of 2026, at which point Ireland would have missed out on nearly €100 million worth of additional investment in the sector. This is a situation we are eager to avoid.

We see the content levy fund as a significant driver of international expansion for original Irish stories and skills helping to promote and create original Irish content for both at-home and international audiences on global platforms.

A key element of any creator's work on a production is the retention of IP. This retention of IP enables creators to invest in their creative practice and develop their abilities. Other European countries have actioned their levies already. These levies have generated millions of additional investment moneys for the creative sectors in these countries. Meanwhile, in Ireland, market realities and cost inflation are making the challenge of attracting inward investment ever-more acute. Brexit continues to create additional cost and logistical complexities, inflation is putting low to mid-budget screen productions under severe pressure, and fears of a global recession are reducing the amount and the range of investment options in the global market.

This is why Ireland must fight to remain a compelling and competitive option within the overall content investment landscape. Section 481, the regional uplift fund and the creation of a content levy all have a meaningful role to play in creating exactly the kind of economic stimulus that is required. The screen servicing sector is strong, including studio hire, catering, accommodation and so on. However, the creation of premium content, originating within Ireland, which retains intellectual property rights within the country, is in a less healthy state. Our creators are ambitious, their talent is being recognised on the global stage and they want to stay in Ireland to help to build a sustainable creative industry here in their native country. A fund which supports high-value content, developed and created in Ireland, aimed at domestic and international audiences will help deliver this vision, bringing Irish stories to international content providers, and will give a return to Irish and international audiences from their investment in these platforms. It will have significant extra benefits such as screen tourism. From the Golden Globes to the BAFTAs, and on to the Oscars, the potential for Ireland to showcase the creative talent within the country is enormous but this potential cannot be realised without appropriate support, so we hope that all issues relating to the creation of a content levy are treated with due attention and urgency. Overall, it should be recognised that when the screen sector thrives, Ireland Inc. benefits.

Ms Maria Fleming

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address the long-term vision for the media sector. The National Campaign for the Arts is a volunteer-led, grassroots movement that makes the case for the arts in Ireland. We work to ensure that the arts are on national and local government agendas and are recognised as a vital part of contemporary Irish life.

Many of Ireland’s 55,000 artists and arts workers work directly or indirectly in the media sector through television, film, animation, radio and online platforms. We wish to see policy and decision-making that creates opportunities for diverse practitioners from all backgrounds to make their art for the enjoyment and participation of all. At the commission’s fifth thematic dialogue, my predecessor, Angela Dorgan, outlined a number of points related to the sustainability of the sector. We emphasised the need for increased coverage of the arts and culture across all media, increased commissioning and presentation of Irish arts and culture by media, and increased collaboration between the arts and cultural sector and the media sector. Angela also outlined how the NCFA strongly believes that the arts should be given parity with sport in coverage across all media.

The National Campaign for the Arts, NCFA, published a pre-budget submission with a ten-point plan which forms the basis of our campaign. We believe implementing the solutions in our ten-point plan would secure the far-reaching positive impacts the arts provide in many areas in Ireland. If members of the committee have not already read the pre-budget submission, I would love if they took the time to look at these points, since they directly impact on the issues addressed today and many other issues that come before this committee.

Today, I would like to identify the areas of our ten-point campaign that align with the future business model plans and long-term vision for the media sector. Firstly, we call for further investment in the arts in line with recommendations in the report of the Future of Media Commission to support and empower independent producers to realise their creative and commercial ambitions. NCFA would like to see further investment in the independent audiovisual sector, which delivers world class Irish television and film. As Ms Glennane alluded to, we only have to look at the Oscar nominations to see how the Irish film sector can flourish when it is nourished. We are seeking to ensure there are more new commissions, fairer terms on usage contracts for existing work with broadcasting networks, a wider focus on new media and more nationally focused media commissions.

Second, we campaign to bring Irish arts to the world and we would like, as recommended by the commission, for any future media business model to address opportunities for access to global audiences. Irish culture is appreciated in many jurisdictions and it is of great benefit to Irish artists. Our artists are in increasing demand abroad, following years of intelligent showcasing by Culture Ireland and we advocate for this funding.

A vital campaign issue for the National Campaign for the Arts is the current climate emergency. No future plans in any sector can afford to ignore the climate emergency and we urge that sustainable working practices be incorporated in any future business model.

As has been frequently raised in previous debates on this issue, there is a lack of diversity and representation in Irish media. We echo the calls from under-represented sections of society for diversity and representation to be central to any future model. The NCFA calls for the removal of barriers for disabled arts workers. Systemic barriers prevent disabled artists and arts workers from equal participation in the arts.

In line with our ten-point plan for the arts, we are looking for all sectors to support adequate research in the arts, which will allow for better planning. We would like to see the establishment of a research section within the Department to ensure the coherence of a research strategy across all funding bodies. I thank members for their time.

Mr. Victor Finn

On behalf of the Irish Music Rights Organisation, IMRO, and our 19,000 members in Ireland and worldwide, I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it. The future funding of media is more critical than ever. Media is a key component of our lives. With the growth in technology and the global nature of online platforms, the health of our indigenous media takes on even more importance. We have a good foundation to build on. We are fortunate that we have in our democracy a rich, diverse, accessible, independent and impartial media. This applies from the smallest community radio station to the plethora of local newspapers to the largest national broadcasters, print publications and national online services. We have commercial and publicly funded media in both Irish and English languages, providing a diverse variety of voices, opinions and topics to a national and increasingly international audience daily.

From IMRO’s point of view, an indigenous media sector is vital to our members. Songwriters, musicians, creators, performers and others depend on Irish media to share their music, and broadcasting continues to be one of the leading outlets for many of our members. The critical question is how we can best protect what we have and ensure its growth in the future. Our first recommendation is reform of the television licence fee. There are few topics that all broadcasters agree on, but the television licence fee reform is one. It has clearly outlived its use and its functionality. Advances in technology mean that phones, tablets and laptops are all taking the place of televisions in Irish homes, reducing the potential pool of people who pay. Added to this are the high levels of evasion and the relatively high cost of collection. This has the effect of impairing the funds available for public service broadcasting.

IMRO believes that the Government should either introduce a household broadcasting charge, as the Future of Media Commission recommended, or alternatively, for public service broadcasting to be funded directly from the Exchequer. Either option would result in increased funds collected and less evasion. The increased funds should be distributed to a greater number of media entities to ensure viability, sustainability, greater employment opportunities and the ability to grow and engage in long-term planning with the greater certainty provided by the visibility of ongoing long-term funding.

The second recommendation is for increased use of Irish music in broadcasting and online media outlets. For a whole host of reasons, Ireland needs healthy indigenous media, but in addition, Ireland must maintain and nourish its strong indigenous culture. Globally, indigenous cultures are under threat. This is due in no small part to the centralisation and influence of online media platforms. Irish culture, music, song, dance, art and writings have brought Ireland an internationally enviable reputation. Our cultural legacy needs to be fostered, nurtured and developed, and we need to do this by ensuring we have a viable Irish offering in traditional and online media outlets.

IMRO supports the introduction of a content levy payable by online platforms such as Netflix, Apple, Disney and others making content available in Ireland. The funds raised should be ring-fenced to guarantee levels of funding for the Irish production of television, film and music to allow these indigenous sectors to compete fairly on a global scale. This will ensure Irish music performers, creatives and musicians, among others, could continue to work at their craft.

Audiences are increasingly consuming creative content online. Consumers demand 24-7 access at a time and place of their choosing. Irish-originating creative productions need to be available on platforms to ensure consumer demand is satisfied and to maximise the potential reach of Irish creativity.

We need a co-ordinated and collective response and a central destination for all radio, television, music, podcasts, film and press. In essence, a global Irish media player is called for. Irish players can collaborate with the Government to deliver a well-resourced global portal of Irish audio and audiovisual productions.

We need a national music strategy. Music is an essential part of Irish culture and vital to our economy. More than 13,000 people work in the music industry in Ireland, contributing more than €700 million to the Exchequer. The Government can take the opportunity to protect and develop the industry by introducing a specific national music strategy with a specific remit to maximise exports. Included as part of this strategy, for example, would be an extension of the section 481 film tax qualifying criteria to include new Irish music creation to form part of the so-called cultural tests in film and television productions, and thereby an increased return on the taxpayers' investment.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Finn very much. I was going to ask him to conclude if he tried squeezing in another bit. We will move on to Dr. Una May from Sport Ireland.

Dr. Una May

Many thanks to the committee for giving us the opportunity to contribute to this discussion. I welcome the work that has been carried out to date on the development of the Report of the Future of Media Commission. We are very grateful to see that our submissions have been reflected within those recommendations. That is very important for us.

We have a positive news story from our point of view. We are the statutory agency for the development of sport in Ireland. We are what we consider to be a natural partner to the national broadcaster and share common public service values. We and our predecessor, the Irish Sports Council, enjoyed a long collaborative working relationship over many years with RTÉ and TG4. We are in a very positive position that live sporting events consistently rank among the most watched events in Ireland. In fact, we were only bumped out of the top ten by the "Late Late Toy Show" last year. Nine of the top ten most watched events were sporting events last year.

We recognise the relationship between sporting bodies and media organisations, which are key to revenue generation, the development of local talent and the cultural significance of sport in Ireland. In our submission to the Future of Media Commission, we highlighted the need to explore innovative solutions between media and rights holders, which are the sporting bodies generally, protect events of cultural significance through the free-to-air broadcast list, diversify the coverage of sporting events and increase visibility for women’s sports.

We feel the Covid-19 pandemic and the evolution of the sports sector has further highlighted these areas. The pandemic had a significant impact on live sporting events in Ireland. Many events were postponed, rescheduled or cancelled due to health and safety concerns and many others were held without fans or with limited capacity to comply with social distancing guidelines. This had a significant financial impact on the sports industry as well as on the media companies that broadcast sporting events.

The pandemic also changed the way many people consumed sport as live events were often not available. This led to an increased demand for alternative forms of sport content such as recorded games, highlights and feature analysis. Online streaming and social media became increasingly important as sources of sport content as people sought out alternative ways to stay connected to their teams and athletes. The pandemic has driven a change in consumer behaviour with the popularity of online streaming increasing and sporting organisations moving to online broadcasts to stay connected with fans.

The rise of online platforms and social media as sources of sport content has provided sporting organisations with new opportunities. This needs to be approached in a strategic manner with media organisations. The move towards digital broadcasting by a greater number of sporting bodies can help to promote diversity in the range of events available to the media sector.

There is also further evolution happening in the sports sector in Ireland, particularly around the growth of women in sport. According to the recent Teneo sport and sponsorship index 2022, the most admired athlete was Katie Taylor. In fact, the top three most admired athletes were female. The team of the year was the women’s national football team and the FIFA women’s world cup is now one of the most anticipated live sporting events this year among Irish people. The move to digital and the evolution of sport can provide new opportunities to frame the recommendations in the report. Sport Ireland welcomes these recommendations and looks forward to facilitating further discussions on this important subject.

Chairman

I thank Dr. May very much. I remind members that they have approximately eight minutes each for questions and answers. My colleague, Deputy Munster, may speak first.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will direct my first question to Ms Glennane. Could she outline how Irish composers will benefit from the audiovisual and media services content levy?

Ms Sarah Glennane

I thank Deputy Munster. I appreciate the opportunity to represent composers today. Our organisation represents composers who create original music whether it is in film, television, any of the Netflix shows people are watching or on YouTube. Currently, composers have not been accessing as much benefit from the existing funds as we would like to see with section 481.

The Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, sound and vision scheme, is only benefitting 30% of the productions that get the funding or commissioning of Irish composers to create the music. We would see there being a gap. I welcome Mr. Finn including in his submission the need for the section 481 cultural test to reference music as well. We would see there being a gap and an opportunity, however. If we were to action this levy and do it with urgency, there will be an opportunity from funding to create more commissioning of Irish music and allow Irish creative music to be heard by global audiences.

Our members include the composer of the original score for An Cailín Ciúin. I would see a crossover in Mr. de Spáinn's submission with our submission as well. Our members also include Ms Natasa Paulberg, another composer within the guild who recently scored the music to the civil war documentary that was shown on RTÉ and used the RTÉ Concert Orchestra. Ms Eímear Noone is another member of ours who works regularly with orchestras. There is much benefit, therefore, not just for Irish composers but also for performers. If we are allowed to keep hold of the rights that come with the music, there will be a return to the creative economy in the form of music royalties and intellectual property, both to the creators and performers of the music, as Mr. Finn can outline further.

Irish audiences are increasingly turning to digital media. They deserve a return on that spend to come back into the economy. If their children can benefit from the Creative Ireland opportunities of putting an instrument in their hands, they might fall in love with the instrument and want to grow up to be composers. We would like to think they could have a career, be based in Ireland and return the investment of that Creative Ireland instrument back to the Irish economy. We think it is very important.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I thank Ms Glennane. To carry on, Mr. Finn mentioned the case for the global Irish media player. I can see the bona fides in the points he made. We are up against the big media players such as Netflix, Disney, Apple and all of those sorts of things with huge resources and funding. Could there be more of a collaboration between RTÉ and TG4 media players with specific sections for the content Mr. Finn mentioned if geo-blocking issues are to be addressed? Would Mr. Finn have concerns about that?

Mr. Victor Finn

First of all, I absolutely agree with the Deputy on the collaboration between the various industry sectors to ensure we have an Irish portal that is well-resourced and technically capable of properly delivering Irish-produced creativity and content to a global audience. The Deputy might remind me about second part of her question.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It was about concerns around geo-blocking.

Ms Lisa Ní Choisdealbha

When Paul Farrell, the chief executive of Virgin Media, appeared in front of this committee a couple of weeks ago, he referenced this global TV platform so there is interest and a willingness among the industry members to get involved. Something similar called the Irish Radioplayer has already been created by the radio industry in Ireland. RTÉ and independent radio stations came together with a very specific remit to agree on technology but compete on content. With the greatest will in the world, there is no broadcaster in Ireland that is big enough to be able to compete with the Spotifys of this world so in order to make sure Irish technologies are available to car companies and TV platforms, they had to work together so there is a platform for it there. The Irish Radioplayer got around geo-blocking because there is a clause in the Broadcasting Act 2009 that says that RTÉ must be available to the diaspora so there was no reason to geo-block the radio player. However, the interest in and take up of the Irish Radioplayer and the buy into it from all the radio stations, which were able to put competitiveness aside and work together for the greater good, show that there is a platform on which to build. It is just a matter of bringing the other media sectors into it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Ms Fleming said she wanted to see the recommendation by the commission for any future media business model that would address opportunities for access to global audiences. Has she any suggestions that would best achieve that?

Ms Maria Fleming

We are looking at a number of issues that affect our members with regard to accessing global audiences. One is the cost of travelling abroad be that to perform or engage with potential partners abroad. In addition, grants that would have been in place previously and would have been perfectly adequate are no longer adequate because we all know the cost of everything in terms of travel, flights and accommodation has sky-rocketed. One thing we need to see is an increase in funding for organisations such as Culture Ireland to allow it to adequately fund artists to travel abroad with their work. We would also like to see an emphasis on more commissioning of Irish artists and ensuring that Irish artists are included in any global works that are being delivered here. One way of doing this is looking at section 481 relief and trying to ensure that not just cast and crew but also Irish creatives are encouraged to be part of any partnerships.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In her opening statement, Dr. May said that this is a good era for Irish sports, particularly Irish women's sports. I must give a shout out to the Meath ladies on their success. In her submission, Dr. May recommended that we explore innovative solutions through media outlets and rights holders. Is one of these issues geo-blocking? Is Dr. May referring to that or taking that on board? It is a major bone of contention and justifiably so for sports fans living in the North, who are continuously blocked or do not have the same access to different sporting events. This area is being looked into. It involves rights and seems very difficult to unravel. Was Dr. May referring to this or has she given it consideration given the unfairness of it?

Dr. Una May

It is certainly one of the areas to which we are referring. From our point of view, the rights holders are the organisers of any sporting event. They become the rights holder for that event. Geo-blocking is a concern. There are some innovative solutions. The GAA has come up with its own solution and there are various solutions out there but it is a concern. Our reference is the broader area around rights holders being event organisers across the board such as small organisations that do not have the financial capacity to enter broadcasting agreements or arrangements. That will be in many cases and rightly pushed towards online versions and streaming options. However, geo-blocking is definitely of concern.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In his submission, Mr. de Spáinn said TG4's funding should be increased in line with that of Welsh TV and that RTÉ should double its current proportion of funding allocated for Irish language services. How confident of this is he? Another ongoing issue that possibly speaks to the way the Irish language can be sidelined or not put on an equal footing is an issue I have raised many times with RTÉ, that is, pay disparity between those working for the public service broadcaster working through the Irish language and those working for it through the English language. There was the promise of a review by RTÉ. It now transpires that it has rolled back on the specific aspects we asked it to look into. What is Mr. de Spáinn's opinion on that?

Mr. Julian de Spáinn

Aontaím leis an Teachta. Níor chóir go mbeadh idirdhealú déanta idir an dá thuarascáil do lucht RTÉ. Bíodh siad ag obair ar Raidió na Gaeltachta nó RTÉ, níor chóir go mbeadh idirdhealú eatarthu. Mar a dúirt an Teachta, gheall RTÉ rud éigin. Caithfidh sé seasamh leis an ngealltanas sin in ionad dul siar air.

Nuair a thagann sé go dtí maoiniú go ginearálta, cuireann maoiniú cosc agus bac ar an normalú gur féidir leis na meáin déanamh ó thaobh na Gaeilge de i saol daoine óga, sa Ghaeltacht nó lasmuigh di, daoine a bhfuil spéis acu san ábhar a bhfuil gach duine tar éis labhairt faoi cheana féin. Nuair a thagann an cheist aníos faoi cé a bheidh ag craoladh an Corn Domhanda nó na Cluichí Oilimpeacha, níl aon cheist ann ach go bhfuil sé chun bheith déanta trí Bhéarla ar RTÉ, Virgin nó eile mar níl an buiséad ag TG4. Má tá sé ag RTÉ, níl sé chun é a dhéanamh as Gaeilge chomh maith. Táimid i gcónaí in áit na leathphingine, nó táimid i gcónaí san áit nach féidir linn an stádas a léiriú don teanga sa chraoltóireacht a ndéantar, bíodh sé ar na meáin éagsúla in Éirinn.

Is gá maoiniú breise a chur ar fáil chun gur féidir le TG4 agus RTÉ, ó thaobh craolta de, a bheith in ann é sin a dhéanamh ar an stádas céanna leis an teanga. Is maith é gur thosaigh RTÉ ag déanamh tráchtaireachta ar chluichí móra Chumann Lúthchleas Gael, CLG, ach nuair a bhreathnaítear ar na cláir sin, chomh luath agus a imíonn sé go leath-am, téann sé ar ais go dtí an tráchtaireacht Bhéarla sa stiúideo. Cén teachtaireacht atáimid ag tabhairt do na daoine óga atá ag foghlaim nó atá á dtógáil trí Ghaeilge, má fheiceann siad gur rud cineál tánaisteach í an teanga? Caithfear í a chur i gcroílár na craoltóireachta agus is gá maoiniú breise chun gur féidir é sin a dhéanamh.

Senator Shane Cassells

Regarding sport, media and Dr. May's submission regarding the future of media and the future sport, the future of sport is an integral part of the debate in respect of the commercialisation of sport and the media as the medium by which to facilitate that.

Everything is driven by one thing, which is television revenue. That has pumped millions into sport and done much good but there can equally be devices behind that as well.

I ask about Irish involvement in the proposed European super league, which is back from the dead like a zombie. People may think there is no Irish interest and that the notion is laughable but that could not be further from the truth. The Spanish sports management company, A22, which is driving the proposal and the TV-rights deal which will be central to it, has moved away from the select clubs it initially looked at and towards an EU-wide, 27-country proposal ,which would involve Ireland. Progress is dependent on a ruling from the European Court of Justice. Has Sport Ireland spoken to the FAI or the league director about potential Irish support for a breakaway league? Daniel McDonnell, soccer editor of the Irish Independent, this week reported that none of the top Irish league sides has been contacted about this. Are negotiations or talk happening at a national level? Does Sport Ireland have a view on Irish involvement in a breakaway league, which would destabilise our domestic game?

Dr. Una May

I am trying to relate back to the topic. I think the Senator's point is around the commercialisation of sport, ultimately. We are not necessarily trying to avoid that. It is important that we do not block the commercial development of sport. Our focus tends to be on the development of challenged areas where we have difficulty ensuring the public can communicate, enjoy and participate as spectators. The diversity of sports offered and diversification of how they are offered is really important. The focus of our submission is on the diversification of offerings. The European super league is not something we have had detailed consultation or discussions around.

Senator Shane Cassells

I ask because in her opening statement, Dr. May spoke of Sport Ireland, as a statutory body, having a partnership with the national broadcaster. That broadcaster has an arrangement with the League of Ireland. If a top club like Shamrock Rovers, to fulfil the need for EU-27 involvement in this, was tempted by money, I would be interested, from the point of view of spectators and people who follow such elite clubs as Shamrock Rovers in Tallaght, in Sport Ireland’s view on that, given its stated natural synergy with the national broadcaster. What is its view on sports bodies here joining a breakaway league driven by television money?

Dr. Una May

The key message is, first, this is a matter very much for the FAI and concerns the relationship between the FAI and its European partners.

Senator Shane Cassells

The point is the national bodies are being bypassed. It will end up in the European Court of Justice because they want to bypass the national bodies and make the clubs stand-alone.

Dr. Una May

I do not see a place for Sport Ireland to get involved in this debate. We represent sport at an EU level in partnership with our parent Department. We are not on any expert groups around media in the EU. We are in specific expert groups where we have expertise, such as in anti-doping, but are not in an expert group in the EU around media. That is somewhere we would be reliant on our parent Department to-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay. Moving back to sports in this country more generally, we have been dealing with different bodies and the communication of their messages. For sports bodies, TV money drives a lot of this. In recent years, the GAA has come in for exceptional criticism, unjustified to my mind, for its relationship with Sky; other pillar sports did not come in for such criticism and escaped it. It was as if somebody had ownership over the GAA. Dr. May touched on online viewing. Does she feel this is where we will end up going and people will put sporting events behind paywalls online? We see that happening already.

Dr. Una May

The concept of putting things behind a paywall is a matter for sports. Some larger sports can justify that. We have provided funding for a number of sports to develop streaming opportunities for activities which would otherwise not be available in any form to the public, other than to those present on the day. We encourage, promote and support the concept of online streaming as a means of diversifying opportunities to access what is available. Putting things behind paywalls is generally a commercial decision for each national governing body. They are entitled to make those commercial decisions. They have a wide and broad remit.

Senator Shane Cassells

They are and they are not. I have read through the Teneo report that was submitted to us, which refers to media coverage. If people see the heroes they look up to participate, that drives engagement, which I am sure interests Sport Ireland. For example, Dr. May touched on female participation in sport. The progress of the Meath ladies football team in the last couple of years in breaking the dominance of Dublin and Cork drove many young girls in Meath and across the country to become involved in ladies GAA.

If sporting organisations end up putting their products behind paywalls, it has a detrimental impact on young people joining and being encouraged to join particular sports because they will not see them if they are behind a paywall or are on pay-per-view. We cannot just say it is a matter for the sporting bodies. If we all care about sport, as Dr. May and I do, we should put it up to the organisations.

The IRFU now has a welcome deal with TV3 and RTÉ to show the Six Nations on terrestrial TV but a number of years ago, its communications manager wanted to enter a European basis in which it would be able to sell its product to others. It is important to have this conversation and not to just say it is up to the pillar bodies.

Dr. Una May

It is up to the bodies, in that they have a responsibility. In particular, the three large team sports have a strong commercial element to the development of their sport. They have a huge remit to deliver. Sport Ireland supports each sport. We work with 60 governing bodies to develop grassroots elements in their sports. We promote and develop opportunities for community sport but are not generally involved in the development of the high performance end of those sports, other than in the broadest sense of our support of high performance sport. It is a separate issue. We provide development opportunities, club supports, training, education and all the supports for sport at local level, which is what we are referring to on the whole. That is key to our role as a development organisation, as opposed to a regulator of the highest levels of commercial activity in these sports. They have a responsibility to develop and promote their sport at the highest level. They are large organisations with a large remit and are obliged to support that remit across everything including club, community, youth, female, senior and elite, depending on the sport.

Senator Shane Cassells

A big thing discussed here in recent years was the lack of female sports being broadcast or in print media. We have had all the pillar organisations in here representing their ladies' sections. If we do not get media coverage, it will not drive recruitment. In the report Sport Ireland sent us, we saw statistics that 40% of women’s sports received sufficient coverage in 2018 and 81% believe media coverage of women’s sport has improved in 2022 on the previous year.

That is to be welcomed. Which particular sports need to be focused on in terms of a carrot-and-stick approach? I praise TG4 for what it has done for ladies' football and RTÉ for what it has done for camogie. TG4 did this when it was not sexy or popular to do so. Both channels have had partnerships with commercial entities, for example, with Lidl, which has done advertising campaigns to promote women's football when it was not as popular as it is now. They are to be commended on that. Are there areas of media coverage that Dr. May would like to see improved in regard to women's sports?

Dr. Una May

The Senator has highlighted very important statistics, including the 80% improvement. We are seeing a positive improvement in engagement in women's sport, which I referenced several times in our submission and in my opening statement. We are seeing significant increases, although we also see gaps. We do a lot of research to investigate the barriers to participation for people. We have a particular emphasis on, for example, teenage girls because that is where we see a lot of dropping out. We know for teenage girls-----

Senator Shane Cassells

On that point, I sit on the Ladies' Gaelic Football Association's national development committee. At a meeting in Croke Park a couple of weeks ago, we heard there is a 20% drop-out rate among those between the ages of 15 and 21, which is shocking. In trying to address that, we must have retention. There is a surge in participation but we are seeing a large drop-out rate in later teen years.

Dr. Una May

We would put a lot of emphasis on that because we are conscious of the challenges around retaining teenage girls in sport. In our research, we have established that teenage girls are interested in diversity of opportunity. They are not necessarily confined to the three major team sports. Although these are the sports girls are very interested in at a young age, they are also the sports the girls are more likely to drop out of. According to our research on girls and boys participating in both team and individual sports, the chance of them retaining their interest in and returning to sport after they reach certain milestones in their lives is much more likely if they have a diversity of sporting opportunity as young people. That is why much of our emphasis is around diversifying the opportunities for visibility in sport. In Sport Ireland, we have worked on areas such as commentary and punditry by women.

Senator Shane Cassells

There have been improvements in that regard.

Dr. Una May

We have invested quite a lot of funds in that and there has been significant interest. We have a massively oversubscribed training programme for women to encourage them to get involved in commentary and to promote that. We are tackling these issues gradually but there have been some significant historical issues in the promotion of women's sport and the participation of women not just in the activity itself but in all positions such as that of an official, a referee and an administrator, as well as high-level leadership positions. We have a women in sport policy that targets four key areas, namely, leadership, coaching and officiating, participation, and the visibility pillar, which is what we are focused on today.

On the whole, we are very positive about the trajectory around visibility of women's sport, but we have a way to go. We are not deluding ourselves.

Senator Shane Cassells

On the point about commentary and presenting, I congratulate Jacqui Hurley on her appointment as presenter of "The Sunday Game". She is an excellent journalist who joins Joanne Cantwell on the programme. They are both excellent journalists. I know we have other witnesses present, but I ask the Cathaoirleach to invite Dr. May back for a separate session on participation because the drop-out rate is an issue I want to pursue again.

I am out of time but I have one final question. According to research done by Teneo, the most admired athlete in 2022, with a 21% rating, was Katie Taylor. Negotiations have been taking place in the past 24 hours and Ms Taylor's fight could proceed. There have been calls for the Government to get involved. I refer to the point made about Eddie Hearn, a man well-placed to provide spin and bluster. Notwithstanding anything being supported by the State, the fight will ultimately be shown behind a pay-per-view wall. What is Dr. May's view on that?

Dr. Una May

It is very important to separate ourselves from professional boxing. It is not a sport we are involved with in any way. We do not have a relationship with professional boxing. As I have mentioned, we generally support the development of sport and, from that point of view, we work with the amateur boxing association. As members well know, Sport Ireland has come before the committee a number of times to discuss the issues the association has had. From the point of view of our investment, and our support and development, we invest in governing bodies that have pathways for young participants and the entire remit around development of a sporting activity. Boxing is an important activity for Irish participation. We have been very successful at an international level. It is an important sport from our point of view because it reaches a critically difficult target audience, that is, young people in disadvantaged areas. We work closely with the Irish Athletic Boxing Association. We do not have, in any way, a relationship with the professional boxing association. The fight is an entertainment matter. It is of value and will be very successful, in the context of involving female athletes, but we do not have any role in that whole debate.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome the fact that Sport Ireland is represented today but I want to continue the conversation on pillar sports. If we do not have this conversation, we will lose out in terms of its responsibility to the broader public. Of course, these are stand-alone bodies and they can conduct their own business and accounts. I would not tell them what to do. However, Sport Ireland announced yesterday an investment of over €26 million, which is hugely welcomed, for national governing bodies. The State supports our pillar organisations. We pump huge amounts of money into sport. It is absolutely not on for pillar organisations to believe they can take money off the State and take no responsibility when it comes to visual media and the availability of top-level stars on our televisions and on radio, where separate contracts are done. If sporting bodies receive money from the State, they have a duty of care to the country as well. If they want to conduct their own business and not take money from the State, that is fine. This conversation must happen because Irish clubs could end up being pulled into the European Super League by default to supplement some mad sports management company's misguided dream.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I welcome all the witnesses. On the submission by the Joint Creative Audiovisual Sectoral Group, it was said that market realities and inflation costs in Ireland are making it very challenging to attract inward investment and that the additional costs and logistical complexities, in addition to inflation, are putting low- and mid-budget productions under severe pressure. I would like to develop that point further and invite the witnesses who are in a position to do so to comment on this matter. How do they see potential revenue generated from a content levy tackling the issue of being competitive? On the cost of low- and mid-budget productions, how could a content levy be used to ensure Ireland remains a competitive place for the incredible production companies that have already been referred to in order that we continue to attract inward investment?

Mr. James Hickey

The important role the content levy could play would be to support indigenous production, particularly in the area of high-end value, such as TV drama and animation. It would also support Irish creative talent. If we have a levy paid to a funding agency and that agency assumes the role of making sure the projects it is funding are projects that support Irish creative talent, it will create a virtuous circle in which Irish content is able to be produced. The Senator is right that inflation and all sorts of other things have increased the cost of production. It is only with the extra funding that we are able to pay for that type of production in the first place. That funding is needed in order to make sure TV drama and animation support Irish creative talent. The most important thing to happen at this stage is for the levy to be established as soon as possible.

As the committee knows, the current situation is that large amounts of money are paid by Irish subscribers to services which provide content and are very often not based in Ireland. These organisations take large amounts of money out of the country. The levy would bring a small part of that back to Ireland so it can be invested through an agency supporting Irish creative talent and Irish producers who own rights to those works.

Television drama is a particularly good example. Indigenous television drama, as Ms Glennane mentioned in her submission, is struggling at the moment. That is a result of the cost but also of the lack of funding. Unless we put a levy production fund in place very soon, we will lose our competitive edge over other EU countries. Most other EU countries at this stage have already introduced either levies or investment obligations. Unless we keep up, we will lose that opportunity. Irish creative talent will lose that opportunity and we will fall behind. It is a simple equation.

Ireland is relatively unusual, in that a considerable amount of money goes out of the country in subscriptions paid to services which are not even based in Ireland. There is now a unique opportunity, which is being availed of under the audiovisual and media services, AVMS, directive. We can levy those services even though they are not based in Ireland because the directive allows that to happen. Only by getting them to contribute to Irish content will we be able to support that content. It is vital.

Television drama, animation, in particular, and feature films are expensive things to produce. The cost of an hour of television drama is at least €1 million, if not €1.5 million. That is the cost per episode and we need that money in place. RTÉ with its current level of funding is not able to pay that level of cost for television drama. The levy could create a situation whereby we have a television drama on every Sunday night on RTÉ. That would be the case 52 weeks per year. We could also fund Irish-language drama. The legislation requires 25% of funding to go to Irish-language content. We could also fund animation so that Irish children see young people's programming which is indigenously created by Irish artists and animators. All of those opportunities are there if we can being in the levy as quickly as possible. We need to do that. We must urge the new media commission to do that as soon as possible. That is the vital thing we need to do now.

Ms Sarah Glennane

Creators are key investors in our creative economy. "An Cailín Ciúin", which we are delighted is going to the Oscars, was made on a shoestring budget, as is often the case with Irish-language productions. It has gone on to do much better than anyone expected. Creators are able to do that when they can access work in other areas and it is all an ecosystem. We are calling for funding to be channelled into the ecosystem, which will allow all of these things to happen. When service productions are coming in and the costs of those are increasingly higher, we must rely on funding from external sources. They then have a greater say in who the creators are. The composer may be based in a partner territory. They may also take the rights out of the country, which means there is no economic return and it does not feed the ecosystem in the same way. Our approach has been invaluable in feeding the ecosystem, keeping studios going and having many people in employment, as the Screen Ireland report on the cultural dividends of section 481 would conclude. We would argue that we need extra funding to support indigenous Irish production to go hand in hand with that, and to bring more Irish films to the Oscars.

Ms Lisa Ní Choisdealbha

I will add two things. First, there is going to be some kind of content fund, whether that is a rejigged sound and vision scheme or another scheme, when the media commission comes in. The media commission needs to learn from the sound and vision fund that it already has in place. Many of the people applying for these funds are from small organisations. They are creative people who do not want to be spending week after week on administration. It is important that any fund is workable and accessible.

My second point is that with these kinds of funds, a rising tide will lift all boats. We need to be sure that the entire cultural landscape of the country is included. We must include as many of our indigenous workers as possible under the criteria set out for these funds.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is absolutely the case. The point about the use of a content levy was well made. We must promote, expand and maintain the incredible wealth and variety of arts in this country. We are riding a large and positive wave in respect of movie productions at the moment. It is not only movie productions. Ms Glennane mentioned composers. Eímear Noone directed the Oscar orchestra recently.

Ms Sarah Glennane

She was the first female conductor to conduct the Oscar orchestra.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We also have talent on the composing side.

Ms Sarah Glennane

Amie Doherty is an amazing female composer. She is doing exceptionally well in Los Angeles. She was the first female composer to compose a feature-length animation film for DreamWorks. We are creating incredible creators. At times it seems that ambition or seeking to be commercially successful is frowned upon in the arts. This week, all of us in the screen industry are in mourning because we have lost the amazing producer, James Flynn. He was able to take ambition, allow creators to be successful and, in turn, to reinvest in productions with smaller budgets. I know the budgets behind some of the films and some composers are working while not making any money because they are spending their fees on producing the music and hiring performers. They work to very small budgets on short films that go out to market and develop directors. That is where it is an ecosystem. If these streamers were parts of the ecosystem and were not investing in it, I would ask are they sustainable as distribution models in the market? How is the situation fair to our national broadcasters?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That point has been well made. We have talked about the importance of the content levy in terms of competitiveness and maintaining productions with small to medium-sized budgets. Ms Glennane referenced the regional uplift campaign in her opening statement. Can our guests elaborate on how important that is for the sector and how important it is that we keep it?

Mr. James Hickey

The regional uplift campaign was hugely important. One of the things that we, as a sector, want is for regional uplift to continue in its present form. The challenge we face is that the regional uplift map has been replaced by another map, which does not have the coverage we would like.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is an understatement.

Mr. James Hickey

Some of the regions are actually excluded. The Deputy might be familiar with the map from other circumstances. We have to take a look at exactly how regional uplift will work but we definitely need to encourage production funding in the regions. I welcome the fact that Screen Ireland has announced €3.5 million funding for regional productions as part of the package for 2023. We hope that will be in place as soon as possible because it is urgent.

With the permission of the Chair, I would like to mention, as has already been touched on by Ms Glennane, the sad passing of James Flynn. He was a member of Screen Producers Ireland and was on the board for many years. He is a great loss to Irish film and television production. He was one of the great producers in Ireland and his is an extraordinarily sad loss. We send our condolences to his family, in particular to his wife, Juanita, on their extraordinarily sad loss. It is a shock for somebody of that age to be taken away. As far as we were concerned, there were many more years of great work for James to undertake. His is an enormous loss to the sector.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

We would all like to be associated with those comments. David Puttnam, who is based in west Cork, shared a heartfelt tweet yesterday. That brings me to my last point, which relates to the regional uplift maps. David Puttnam is a well-known and worldwide movie producer and moviemaker. I am glad that Mr. Hickey mentioned the regional uplift maps because they are absolutely out of date and not fit for purpose. I make a plea to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.

Those maps need to be rectified to better reflect the regions. There are whole swathes of the country left out of the regional uplift whereby productions can get a tax credit, which makes it far more attractive to make a movie or a television programme in an area. The entire county of Cork, my home county, has been left out. Kerry is included. That is not to say that Kerry should not be included, just that Cork should also be included. Parts of Limerick are included but Clare is not. It is ridiculous. I appeal to the Department to review those maps. There is an incredible opportunity for Ireland to capitalise on the extraordinary success of the past couple of years. It is not just this year. This year we struck gold in terms of Oscar nominations. However, for years, a body of extraordinary Irish work has been building. It came to fruition this year.

Taking the example of west Cork, I already mentioned David Puttnam. The area is also sometimes home to Jeremy Irons, Saoirse Ronan and Paul Mescal. They are not even the most important part of what could make west Cork an unbelievable place to make movies and television programmes. It is home to a plethora of incredible, skilled people who work in movies and television, namely, set designers, make-up artists, production managers and location managers. Everything is there. However, it is difficult to be competitive when the entire area is outside of the uplift region. I am glad to hear the comments on the fact that regions should be realigned. I absolutely agree with that. We need to get places like counties Cork and Clare included on the regional uplift map to make them competitive.

There is an exciting project in Skibbereen. West Cork Film Studios are putting together an extraordinary, talented and skilled workforce within the television and movie sector. These people live in west Cork, the area I talked about in the context of attracting movie productions. What is happening will attract movie and other productions. We have already seen the likes of “Holding” and “The Sparrow”. I could list them off. It will happen, but it would be so much easier if the regional uplift maps were amended. I just wanted to make that point.

Mr. James Hickey

I agree with the Deputy on the regional map situation. The whole business of how the regional map and the regional funding works needs to be reviewed in detail. There are related challenges because you have to come up with another map and the basis on which such map would be prepared. Another way of the solving the problem would also be to provide significant additional funding to Screen Ireland whereby it could, with a greater degree of flexibility, allocate resources in the way in which it is already doing. It funded projects such as “The Sparrow”, for example, which the Deputy mentioned. There are ways in which we need to develop a better, clearer approach to how we will support production throughout the country and not just in the metropolitan area of Dublin-Wicklow alone. That is an important part of policy that needs to be developed as a matter of urgency for the benefit of media in Ireland.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I have one last point, if that is okay, for Dr. May on sports and the inclusion of women in sport, making it easier for and encouraging women to participate in sport. I have to bring an individual case to Dr. May and I know she will not mind me doing so. One of the best freestyle kayakers on the planet is named Anaïs O'Donovan and she is from west Cork. In the past three or four years, she has gone from a novice to one of the best freestyle kayakers on the planet. She has qualified at the top of the Irish qualifiers to represent Ireland in the freestyle kayaking world championships, which are taking place in Georgia, USA in October. However, because freestyle kayaking is not yet an Olympic sport, she is struggling - as is any Irish freestyle kayaker - to get access to funding support and even just advice on where she can go to get funding for her incredible journey to becoming one of the best freestyle kayakers in the world. Check out her stuff on YouTube. What she can do in a little boat is unbelievable. It is essentially gymnastics on whitewater rapids. I would ask Dr. May to look into Ms O’Donovan’s case - her application and appeal for funding. It would be such a shame if someone who has already been used in many campaigns for inclusion of females in sport - her face is being used front and centre - is not supported when she comes looking for something herself. I would like Dr. May to look into that. I had to use this opportunity to bring up her situation.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I apologise for my late arrival. I was at a meeting that went on far too long. I have two quick questions. Eímear Noone is a neighbour and friend of mine. We in east Galway are all exceptionally proud of her for what she has achieved and of her potential to achieve even more in the future. It is extraordinary that she and her husband have now built a superb recording studio in Kilconnell, a small east Galway village, and are collaborating with Stewart Copeland on some of his work from that location. It gives us an insight into the potential for musical composition in the worlds of film, animation and digital gaming.

That is just one example of an exceptionally talented and driven musician, composer and conductor. I am sure there are others with similar potential around our country, living in similarly remote locations. An ecosystem was mentioned earlier. In terms of nurturing that talent in situ and not having to centre it in our larger cities, what is missing right now in our State support mechanisms? If another Ms Noone was to arrive on the doorstep of a public representative in Belmullet, for example, and say she signed a contract to compose the soundtrack for a new game but she wants to do it there, what are the support mechanisms available for them right now and what is preventing them from succeeding in situ?

We have an extraordinary kind of a nexus between all of our talent, experience and reputation around the whole world of technological and digital. We see some of the greatest global IT behemoths basing themselves here in Ireland. We have also developed an extraordinary resource of musicians and creators. Somewhere there is a sweet spot in between all of that and we are not maximising it to the greatest possible extent. I think it is because many people feel the need, obligation or pressure to locate in some of our larger centres. West Cork, the east Galways and the west Mayos could be equally as productive. What would that perfect ecosystem look like? That is a small question.

My second question is for Dr. May. I say “Well done” to her on an extraordinary hosting of a round of the cyclo-cross world championships in the Sport Ireland centre. It was a phenomenal day and a great celebration of cycling and cycling culture. It was an opportunity for us to showcase, as a country, what we are capable of doing when it is asked of us to stage something of that scale and nature. It was superb. I am hoping that can become quite a regular occurrence. Alongside that, I know Dr. May is deeply involved in the development of our national velodrome. I would love to know where that is at this point in time. Not dissimilar to the world of music, we have the potential of extraordinary talent to emerge and be nurtured through a national track cycling initiative. To have the velodrome open and functioning would be wonderful. About six years ago, I was fortunate to visit two national velodromes in New Zealand and meet two eminent Irish cycling coaches who were based there at the time, simply because there was no opportunity for them to do the cutting edge work they were doing in Ireland in an indoor velodrome. I am sure that potential exists in Ireland as well.

Ms Sarah Glennane

That is a big question. There are a few different areas, if I was to put it down. I think we will see much more regionality. To be completely frank, many of our creators can no longer afford to live in Dublin or Wicklow. Similar to many small enterprises, it is important that the regions prepare and facilitate people to set up as Eímear Noone and Craig Stuart Garfinkle have in east Galway and support that. Some of our members - I will not reference any names - have got much support from Enterprise Ireland initiatives and different funds available through county councils.

They are not the same across the country.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

There is a lack of consistency.

Ms Sarah Glennane

There is a lack of consistency. Certainly, some places would benefit more than others. That is one aspect. Something we had included in our pre-budget submission was the need for a type of Enterprise Ireland approach to creative industries. The Arts Council, which is a good organisation that does a lot of wonderful work, can sometimes focus too much on creating funds that artists must apply for. It is not able to support ambition in the same way as we would see in Enterprise Ireland or even in the Design and Crafts Council Ireland Sometimes I look at what we do and look at the food industry and see there is a lot of similar areas there as well. That is another aspect, that local and regional infrastructure would be there to support the development of enterprise and to recognise, for example, with Kilkenny-based Cartoon Saloon, the significant benefits that can come back where there is that.

Deputy Cannon was referring to Ms Eímear Noone, who is an individual. Another individual, Bill Whelan, went out and got a lot of recording brought back to Ireland. That was their initiative. When I see individuals acting like that, I would always say that one should invest in them, support them and engage with them, bring them in and have an infrastructure that allows for that. The most important aspect, all of my members would say wherever their based, is access to work and access to funded work, that is, work that is well-enough funded. We have composers who are based in Connemara. We have composers who are Gaeilgeoirí and would like to be working more on TG4 content. As Mr. de Spáinn referred to, there is a significant disparity in budgets. It becomes very unfair. We see then where there are lower budgets - such as through the sound and vision scheme and some of the TG4 content created for it - they must rely on production music that is generally coming from outside Ireland. They are going to the big hubs, such as London or Los Angeles, LA, and getting blanket licences. We would say investment is required. It should be encouraged and supported to commission.

We met the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI. They were open to meeting us and have made some changes to their application form but we would want to see more. We want to see the authority recognise that part of its job is supporting this development. Similarly, on section 481 and the cultural test, the inclusion of music creators as part of that and the content levy are where we would really see that coming in.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank Ms Glennane.

Chairman

Ms Fleming wants to respond.

Ms Maria Fleming

If I could add to that, I mentioned earlier that the pre-budget submission by the National Campaign for the Arts included ten points, one of which was space for the arts. As the Deputy raised that point about artists working regionally and as Ms Glennane has pointed out, we are seeing a lot of our members having to leave the big centres such as Cork, Galway and Dublin because it is no longer affordable for them, both in terms of housing - many of our members would be renters and there is not housing - but also in terms of studio space and production space for artists, visual artists, designers and set makers. I would also direct the Deputy towards our pre-budget submission and the point on space. In it, we have addressed looking at temporary use and meanwhile use of spaces and that in building projects, the Government would consider artist spaces and work-live spaces for artists within any new developments or when it is working on reassessing areas. Space for arts and for artists is a huge issue. We will lose out on the opportunities that we have and the fabulous benefits, for example, as we have spoken about, the Oscar nominations. That will not be possible if we do not support the ecosystem for artists in Ireland.

Mr. James Hickey

I would point to the vital role of the media, producers and entrepreneurs putting funding together for productions. Ultimately, for creative talent to prosper, you need the funding and entrepreneurs to bring together the packages, particularly for audiovisual production, which requires so many participants. Whether it is music, actors, writers or directors, all those people can only be brought together by producers who are enabled to do that. As long as the proper funding is there for the producers, they are enabled to do that. If you are asking how more work can be based in Ireland, ultimately enabling the producers will enable the creative talent to achieve their goals.

Chairman

We enable the producers by having that content levy there and providing the opportunity.

Ms Lisa Ní Choisdealbha

Could I add to that?

Chairman

Yes.

Ms Lisa Ní Choisdealbha

The phrase that stood out from Deputy Cannon's question was "the sweet spot". What is vitally important to find that sweet spot is to talk to the people who are involved - the composers and musicians - to find out what their stumbling blocks were. There is an interesting recommendation in the Future of Media Commission's report to have a strategic plan for sports broadcasting and promotion. It might be a good idea to have a similar grouping for music and musicians that you could bring together all of those vested interests and people who are involved at the grassroots level to find out what their areas are and to be able to put together a concrete plan that will allow them to stay living in the regions but still being able to have sustainable and viable work that would keep them living there.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank Ms Ní Choisdealbha.

Chairman

Has Senator Hoey, who is on the line, questions to put to our guests?

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Can I get my Cycling Ireland answer beforehand?

Chairman

I beg Deputy Cannon's pardon.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

It is okay, not at all.

Chairman

I thought the Deputy's questions were completely. Sorry, Dr. May, how could I?

Dr. Una May

I thank Deputy Cannon for the kind words about the cyclo-cross. We were happy with the event.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

It was super.

Dr. Una May

It was organised at short notice. On the subject of media etc., it was broadcast live in Europe and we had over 1 million television views of the event. It was a great opportunity for what is a relatively niche area of a sport. It lends itself to the conversation around the velodrome in that we are keen. I have mentioned on a number of occasions about the diversity of opportunity that we diversify, not only into the traditional elements, for example, that cycling is one of the sports that has been recognised in the national sports policy as being a high priority, but that we look at the disciplines within that and we look not only at the traditional road cycling but also at these safer off-road disciplines.

In answer to the Deputy's question about the velodrome, we have succeeded in obtaining full planning permission and we are at the detailed design stage of tendering for the likes of the track designers and the technical design elements. We have a broad design but for the next number of months we have to go into the detailed designs required to fulfil that project to its maximum.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

It is difficult because there are still a number of hurdles to jump. If Dr. May were to be asked when might it open now that the planning aspect of it is resolved and they are now into the final element of design, tendering and construction, are we talking roughly another two years?

Dr. Una May

Realistically, we are talking another two years.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

That is not unreasonable.

Dr. Una May

We hope to start construction later this year but it is a very big project. Realistically, we are looking at two years from now. I say, "unfortunately", because we are keen.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Well done to Dr. May.

When it is opening or perhaps long before it opens, I ask that there be some engagement with Cycling Ireland so that there is a sense of ownership of this regionally across the country in terms of the cycling community so that the provincial Cycling Ireland organisations would have some sort of dedicated time or access that would be specifically laid out for the regions so that it does not become perceived as a Dublin-centric pursuit and that it is ultimately Ireland's national velodrome. Are there any exemplars we can look at internationally where one velodrome serving a nation has managed to do that outreach in an effective way? Engagement with Cycling Ireland, perhaps even now, as to how exactly they intend to provide for that kind of equitable regional access would be an important part of the development.

Dr. Una May

Absolutely.

Chairman

I ask Deputy Cannon to take the Chair for a couple of minutes to facilitate Senator Hoey. Senator Hoey might give me the thumbs up to have a temporary Chair for a couple of moments. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon took the Chair.

Senator Annie Hoey

I apologise for not being in the room. I have been listening from my office. I thank the representatives for their contributions. I noticed the statement made by Ms Angela Dorgan from the National Campaign for the Arts, which indicated there should be as much coverage of the arts in the media sector as there is of sports. A topic that always came up when I worked in theatre was whether recording or streaming a theatre event was the same as being in the space. There is a space for that conversation to happen. It is possible to flick through any channel to watch a game; the stadiums are full and people still attend. Where is that space for showing our arts, theatre spaces and performances in our broadcaster? I would love a conversation on the feasibility of that and whether it is something that can be done. Sometimes, nothing is ever the same as experiencing things in person, but we have managed to do so for many other things. I was struck by that.

There have been many conversations around people not being able to stay in the regions or move to cities to make their art, or they can only make it up to a certain point and they then have to leave the sector because they cannot afford it. Are Government policies around housing or strategies for development of our towns and cities cognisant of the needs of this sector? Are we still missing a beat in national policy in facilitating our language, culture and creative economy? Where are we at with streamlining the national development policies? This is somewhat outside the box but I heard so much conversation about people not being able to stay or afford to live in places. Is that because there is just no national awareness, when we make plans and strategies, that we need to facilitate the language, culture and creative economy? Are we still consistently missing a beat or just assuming that the arts will survive, as they have always done, regardless of what the national policy is? That should not be the way. We should not rely on the starving artist trope in order to make art or create. Are policies making it? Is it the fault of policies that the sector continues to struggle, or not get to where it needs to be, from a Government perspective?

Deputy Niamh Smyth resumed the Chair.

Ms Maria Fleming

Ms Angela Dorgan was my predecessor at the National Campaign for the Arts. She is referenced in my opening statement because she started the discussions with the joint committee and the commission on this. I have now taken over. I referenced Ms Dorgan's comments in my opening submission.

I thank the Senator for her questions. Of her two questions, one answers the other. If we had, as we are calling for, more extensive coverage of the arts across all media, they would then be front and centre. The other issues that come up would be addressed because we would be aware of them. The National Campaign for the Arts is calling for parity of representation of arts with, for example, sport in Ireland. Across the period of the pandemic, we saw the real need for the arts and how everybody turned to that. People went to books, poetry, film and music to survive the difficult times we had over the past number of years. People had a new appreciation for the arts. We know their value and how important they are. We would love to see, as part of news coverage, what is happening in the arts being covered at the same time as the section on sport at the end. The arts make it into the news when there is something like 14 nominations for the Oscars or the opening of the Dublin Theatre Festival, but there is enough activity happening across the arts year-round for which we could have more coverage. If people were more aware, including government at local and national level, some of the issues we are addressing, such as space for the arts and making sustainable career paths for artists, would be more front and centre. To answer the Senator's question, the two things go hand in hand.

I draw the Senator's attention to our pre-budget submission, which I can circulate again to members. A significant section of it looks at space for the arts, which includes some of the questions she raised. Is enough being done? No, but thankfully we offer solutions in our pre-budget submission. We have some ideas and suggestions. It is an area about which we would like to talk to the committee regarding ideas we have. The more we have exposure to the arts for everybody through more media attention, the more people will become aware and will value the arts more, and some of the issues we are struggling with when it comes to supporting the ecosystem will be more front and centre.

Chairman

Does that answer the Senator's questions or has she more?

Senator Annie Hoey

That is all right. I should have been clearer that I was referencing the written opening statement. I apologise to Ms Fleming.

Ms Maria Fleming

As the Senator is not present in the room, I just wondered if she knew that I was here.

Senator Annie Hoey

My main question was around how we will square the circle. Those are all my questions.

Mr. James Hickey

The Senator raised a very interesting point. There is a real need for us as a country to look at our policy regarding the cultural and creative industries overall. One of the items on today's agenda is the creative economy. We need to look first at what the creative economy is in Ireland. It is probably somewhere between 4% and 6% of Irish GDP. The creative economy is enormous. It ranges across the arts and film and television production. It also includes design, advertising, various other creative areas and, most importantly and curiously, in Ireland, software development, which is treated as part of the cultural and creative economies, in accordance with the definitions currently being used in Europe and the UK. The UK has been extremely successful in promoting its creative economy. We have a certain amount to learn from what it has done and what is being done in Brussels as regards the development of policy for the cultural and creative industries.

It is estimated that possibly as much as 6% to 8% of employment in Ireland is in the creative economy. For that scale of economic impact, we should develop policies that would support that cultural and economic activity. A discussion on how to promote the cultural and creative industries in Ireland, on a very broad basis, needs to be put on the political table at this point because their scale is very important. Europe is very busy on this. Somewhere between 6 million and 8 million people in Europe work in the creative economies. That is the level of employment that exists. These industries are estimated to account for 4% to 5% of GDP across the whole of Europe. We need to look at these areas. The creative industries in Europe are larger than car manufacturing. If we consider that kind of scale, we then realise what we need to look at.

The most important thing to say about the cultural and creative industries relates to how we define them. The basic underlying definition is that they all support products that are protected by intellectual property, particularly copyright. Therefore, the role of copyright in the cultural and creative economy is vital in the way it underpins that creative economy. These are the issues that need to be developed on a policy basis in future.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Hickey. That is a lovely way to conclude. I will ask the clerk about having further discussions on how we put this on the political agenda in that broad sense Mr. Hickey talked about. Those figures and statistics, which are accurate, are quite staggering. An appreciation of what these industries bring to the economy nationally is slightly underestimated. Perhaps that is something we could look at.

Ms Sarah Glennane

I will add that we are very lucky in Ireland in having amazing voluntary organisations, such as Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann and the GAA, that have worked and built up. We could do with more support beyond that.

On copyright, legislation on the EU copyright directive was brought in by the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in 2019. It has been largely unsupported within the industry.

We have looked to engage with the Department on a number of occasions to talk about the practical application of this legislation. It has been very much left to the industry to resolve issues itself. Copyright is a huge part of the funding ecosystem as is ensuring that creators get a fair share of the money that is made off the back of their works. In reference to the National Campaign for the Arts, if we were to see arts coverage on television, or if we were to see musicians getting the same level of bandwidth, that would be a big income source - similar to radio - for musicians, producers or anyone who has creative intellectual property that is being exploited.

Chairman

I hope our national broadcasters are tuning in today as we speak about having that parity in coverage of sports and the arts. I was going to come to that but Senator Hoey did that in my absence. I am glad that got a bit of air time.

Mr. Hickey spoke about the content levy and that we could have the likes of "Smother", "North Sea Connection" or any of those dramas for 52 weeks of the year. People love it; our audiences love it. If the content levy delivers that for 52 weeks of the year, we will be achieving great things and creating huge employment for everyone in all of the creative industries. We should certainly be gearing ourselves up for that.

I do not think there are any other questions. I certainly do not have any, because your presentations have all been so comprehensive. I want to thank you all for being with us today. It is very much appreciated. I would like to thank my colleagues who tuned in and out both in person and online.

Again I thank you all most sincerely for being with us. We very much appreciate it. All of your presentations, comments and observations will be noted by the clerk and will be part of the report we compile.

We are now going into private session to attend to housekeeping.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.22 p.m. and adjourned at 3.33 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 1 March 2023.