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Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 19 Apr 2023

Engagement with Chairperson to the Board of RTÉ

We have received apologies from Deputy Smyth and Senators Carrigy and Warfield. This meeting has been convened with Ms Ní Raghallaigh to discuss her role and key priorities as the recently-appointed Chairperson to the board of Raidió Teilifís Éireann. I warmly welcome Ms Ní Raghallaigh to committee room 1. She is also joined by RTÉ board member Dr. P.J. Mathews, who I also welcome. The committee notes yesterday's announcement that Mr. Kevin Bakhurst will be the next director general of RTÉ. The committee looks forward to engaging with Mr. Bakhurst in the role and thanks the outgoing director, Ms Dee Forbes, for her years of service to public service broadcasting.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite the witness to deliver her opening statement, which is limited to three minutes. The committee may publish the opening statement on its website. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee.

Before I invite our witness to make her opening statement, I must explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practices of the Houses around references that witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected by absolute privilege pursuant to the Constitution and statute in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means witnesses have absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty, as Chair, to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are also asked to note that only evidence connected to the subject matter of the proceedings should be given, and witnesses should respect directions given by the Chair with the parliamentary practice to that effect. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach agus leis an choiste as cuireadh a thabhairt dom teacht ina láthair inniu. Mar is eol dóibh, ceapadh le tamall beag anuas mé i mo chathaoirleach ar bhord RTÉ agus is breá liom mo chion féin a dhéanamh, i dteannta chomhaltaí eile an bhoird agus an lucht feidhmiúcháin, maidir le bealach úr a leagan amach don phríomhchraoltóir náisiúnta seirbhíse poiblí ionas go ndéanfar é a chothú agus a chóiriú i rith na mblianta seo amach romhainn.

In an increasingly competitive and fragmented media landscape, RTÉ plays a critical role in Irish life, where nine in every ten adults use one or more of RTÉ's services each week, making it one of the most relied-upon services in the country. Many of the achievements are made possible by RTÉ’s journalists, presenters, administrative and support staff, editors, and programme makers and by RTÉ working together with its primary content partner, the independent production sector. In 2022, RTÉ invested more than €43 million with the independent sector and worked with 121 independent television production companies as well as with 32 independent radio production companies.

In 2022 Ireland's creative talent on both sides of the camera received richly deserved global recognition, serving as a timely reminder of the world-class standards now consistently achieved here in Ireland. We look forward to deepening our relationship with the independent production sector.

Misinformation is an increasingly acute global problem and there is no room for complacency as to the importance of a trusted, independent and impartial national news service. Given the increasing reach of international streaming services, Ireland faces a real risk of cultural dilution. National storytelling in all its forms is hugely important and RTÉ has a huge role to play in combatting misinformation with facts, journalistic rigour and impartiality. As Ireland’s national storyteller, RTÉ has a unique role in sustaining and supporting Irish storytelling in all its forms.

Craoladh níos mó ná 1,000 uair an chloig d'ábhar Gaeilge ar cheithre sheirbhís líneacha teilifíse RTÉ anuraidh, agus rinne RTÉ Raidió na Gaeltachta ceiliúradh ar 50 bliain ó thráth a bhunaithe, ionas gur neartaíodh pobal na Gaeltachta agus pobal na Gaeilge ar fud na tíre trína gcuid scéalta, a gcuid amhrán agus a gcuid ceoil a chur in iúl. In éineacht le TG4, rinne RTÉ freisin cion mór tairbhe maidir le cur chun cinn agus úsáid ár teanga náisiúnta.

All of this testifies to the importance of national public service media as a key element of national infrastructure. Audiences are presented with more choice than ever, not just about what to watch, but how, when and where to watch it. New players continue to enter the market. Global giants with deep pockets continue to invest in compelling content for global audiences, including Irish audiences and with the unprecedented appeal of live sport, pursue lucrative sports rights. Listening habits are also changing fast, with the growing popularity of podcasts on demand for all tastes.

RTÉ must respond to these changes if we are to be as central to the lives of this generation as we were for their parents. Our capacity to innovate and adapt is central to the success of the organisation and with this comes challenges. Technological change, while necessary, is often expensive. In the last 15 years RTÉ has embraced many of the opportunities of digital technologies but increased investment in digital services will need to be prioritised, as will an increased focus on greater levels of diversity within the organisation and within its content. While the board and the RTÉ executive have a strong sense of purpose and ambition for the future evolution of the organisation, we also remain mindful of some of the risks and actions that must be addressed to ensure that the organisation remains relevant and financially stable. There are significant strategic choices ahead as we continue to consider how to serve audiences better within financial constraints.

It is a modern reality that increasing numbers of people are consuming their media, both short form, full programmes and longer articles, from digital devices. We are all aware of the rapid growth of so-called "No TV" homes. All this also speaks to the importance of reconciling the system which underpins the funding of public service media with the realities of how it is consumed. As we all know, and have formally acknowledged, the current liability for TV licence fee does not reflect how media is consumed and a Government decision and plan on its reform must be enacted swiftly to ensure public service media is to survive and thrive. RTÉ will also have to recalibrate its commercial strategy to align with digital consumption. Ireland’s population is too small to sustain public service media by licence fee alone, so it is important that RTÉ continues to be as resourceful and creative as possible in generating income to deliver against its comprehensive remit.

The board and I welcome the creation of Coimisiún na Meán, the work of which includes ensuring that Ireland has a thriving, diverse and safe online and media landscape. RTÉ looks forward to working with the commission to create ambitious goals that will meet the needs of Ireland’s audiences of all ages. We also look forward to working with our national legislators, including this committee, which also has a part to play in shaping the legislative and financial framework which will underpin the foundation to sustain national public service media for the decade ahead and beyond.

There are challenging times ahead, but it is also a significant moment of opportunity for the re-imagining of a new RTÉ. If we work together effectively over the years ahead, we can all create a legacy to be proud of.

Thank you Ms Ní Raghallaigh. We will now proceed to questions and answers. Speaking slots will be limited to six minutes. Deputy Munster is first.

Both of our guests are very welcome and I congratulate Ms Ní Raghallaigh on her recent appointment

In her opening statement Ms Ní Raghallaigh said that "the current liability for TV licence fee does not reflect how media is consumed and a Government decision and plan on its reform must be enacted swiftly to ensure public service media is to survive and thrive." As she is probably aware, the Future of Media Commission made 50 recommendations. The initial purpose of the commission was to analyse and make recommendations on the funding of RTÉ, public service broadcasting and issues around the licence fee, including examining other funding options. The commission made 50 recommendations and to the best of my recollection, 49 were adopted or agreed. However, the one that was not adopted was the one relating to the licence fee and the funding aspect. That has since been referred to a technical group which I understand is not due to make its decision until the latter part of next year. In the context of Ms Ní Raghallaigh's opening statement, she must be disappointed that the decision making is proving to be so prolonged and protracted. Is she disappointed at the lack of decision making on this issue?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Obviously I reviewed the Future of Media Commission report and recommendations prior to my joining RTÉ. It was very heartening to see that the commission addressed all of the issues concerned. The report itself was excellent, as were the recommendations. The current situation is unfortunate but that is where we are. The technical group has been set up and is due to report as to progress in the short-term, as I understand it. I am very heartened by the support from the Department and the Minister on this. There is definitely a move to get a resolution to this because, as the Deputy quite rightly pointed out, it was the key point of the commission and without a resolution, we will have to reassess what we are doing.

Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh have an opinion on what shape that reform should take? Who should have the responsibility for collecting the money, whether through a TV licence or a broadcasting levy? Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh have an opinion on that or a preferred option?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I understand it, RTÉ made a submission to the technical group on that issue and made its feelings clear on it. None of us thinks there is a magic solution but a nettle has to be grasped here at some point. That is what we have to work towards and we have to work together on this.

Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh have an issue with An Post collecting the licence fee? The evasion rate is estimated to be 15%. An Post would argue that its lack of access to a database from either Revenue or the ESB prevents it from collecting more. Would Ms Ní Raghallaigh have an issue if the situation stayed the same, with An Post given a long-term contract to continue to collect the fee but also given enhanced support?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

An Post is doing the best job it can in the circumstances but there is a myriad of problems with the licence fee. It is not just about the 15% evasion rate. It is also the fact that the percentage of people that are paying are carrying the others that are consuming but not paying and that is simply down to the definition of what triggers the licence fee.

This is the key issue.

I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh. I was just looking at the clock ticking. One issue has been and ought to be a bone of contention for everybody in RTÉ and this is pay disparity between Irish-language workers and their English-language counterparts. I have raised this topic with witnesses from the organisation at numerous committee meetings, including at the Committee of Public Accounts. To say we were fobbed off would be an understatement. A review was promised but nothing was heard. We chased it up and continued to do so. On pressing the issue, we discovered the review initially promised to examine this issue, even though it was known about for years and was just ignored, to be honest, did not include the disparity of pay between Irish-language workers and English-language workers.

A response was given to the committee in correspondence where it was stated the review will not differentiate roles by language requirement and that the salary scales are based on responsibilities and not on language. It is clear, however, that those working in the Irish language sector are performing exactly the same tasks as those working in the English language. It seems unacceptable, especially for a public service broadcaster, to have this type of discrimination in pay scales. I submitted an amendment to the Online Safety and Media Regulation Bill but the Government voted against it. From that perspective, there was no interest from Government quarters in respect of addressing this pay disparity. I put this point to Ms Ní Raghallaigh as the new chair. Would she think it is totally unacceptable, to put it mildly, that this sort of discrimination exists? What would she do to change this situation and put it right?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I understand it, a review is being undertaken by RTÉ regarding the grading of employees. I believe there are more than 160 grades and a fundamental review of the entire situation is under way. This will include every aspect of the organisation, including those employees the Deputy spoke about. This review process is due to finish with its recommendations later this year. I think it will be in the third quarter. I understand that exactly what the Deputy is talking about is being dealt with within that undertaking, within the overall organisational structure. It would, of course, then come into play in that context.

I have concerns. As I said, what was stated in the correspondence we have on today's agenda was that different grades exist across RTÉ, each with an associated salary scale based on responsibilities and not on language. It continued by stating that the review will not differentiate roles by language requirements. To me, this seems to mean the review will not address the issue. There is clear evidence, however, that those working in the Irish language are paid up to 25% less. Given how much we have been fobbed off regarding this matter at this stage by the director general on occasions in the Committee of Public Accounts, I do not have much faith in this review. I hope it will prove me wrong. If it is the case, though, that what I believe transpires and the issue of pay discrimination and disparity is not addressed, would Ms Ní Raghallaigh be prepared to take on this matter and address it?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I do not get involved in operational matters, as the Deputy will understand. That is not my role. I do, however, have faith that what the review will come out with will address the Deputy's concerns. I cannot pre-empt what this outcome will be but I believe that it will.

I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh.

We move to Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan.

I congratulate Ms Ní Raghallaigh on her new position. I wish her the best of luck with it. I also wish Mr. Kevin Bakhurst the best of luck in his new role. I congratulate Ms Dee Forbes as well, the outgoing director general. She spends a lot of time in Glandore in my constituency. I am sure she will now be spending much more time there, so I expect to see much more of her down there. I wish her the best of luck too.

At these meetings, we are obviously going to hear some criticisms of RTÉ. This is the nature of these things. I wish to point out, though, the things the organisation still does very well. It is still the best in the business in many areas. It is certainly up there in terms of current affairs programming and covering big events, such as the recent visit of President Biden, which provided some fantastic public service television. Some sports coverage is also excellent. I am thinking in particular of some of the coverage of the Olympics, which can be excellent. That is to point out the things RTÉ does very well.

At the same time, An Post in 2021 collected approximately €200 million to €300 million in television licence fees and most of this money would have gone to RTÉ. There is, therefore, an expectation here for the level of programming that we expect to see in this context. How often does the board meet?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We meet about seven or eight times a year.

At those meetings, does the board ever discuss the proliferation of repeat shows on RTÉ 1 and RTÉ 2, the two main television stations? I ask this because since the number of repeat programmes on both channels has been pointed out to me, this issue has been driving me mad. There are quite a lot of these repeats. I am thinking of shows like "Killinaskully", as well as "The Late Late Show", "Home and Away", "The Zoo", "The Big Bang Theory" and "The Simpsons", and I could go on. By the way-----

You could not get enough of "Killinaskully".

There is a lot of "Killinaskully" in here as well.

That is the point I am making.

(Interruptions).

"Home and Away" was what I grew up on in college. We could not get enough of it. At the same time, though, we are in a changing world and people can record programmes if they want to watch them back. In most instances, they have the devices to record them. There is only so much of one programme we can take. Has the level of repeats on RTÉ 1 and RTÉ 2 been discussed? Surely these slots could be used for some new, fresh and original programming instead? Can a case be made at the board meeting for a new approach to be taken by the new director general and the different programming staff? I refer to perhaps taking a new approach and reducing the number of repeats. Genuinely, this point has been raised with me on a few occasions. I would like to hear Ms Ní Raghallaigh's thoughts on this.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I have only just started and been the chair of the board since December 2022. I ask the Deputy to bear with me, because I have not fully grasped everything yet. We are, however, undertaking a strategic review. I refer to the board in conjunction with the executive board. Everything is being examined in respect of what type of service we are providing. This strategic review is in process now. Additionally, the board also has subcommittees. There is a subcommittee on programming, as well as on audit and risk and all those things we would expect. Dr. Mathews may wish to add something, because he is on that subcommittee.

Dr. P.J. Mathews

I have chaired the programme subcommittee for a while and I hear what the Deputy is saying about repeats. If we look across the channels, however, we will see that this is a practice widely adhered to among many of the linear television services. If we look at the BBC, it seems like "Dad's Army" is on all the time. These are practices we see on other linear TV services, but this does not mean to say that we cannot have a look at this aspect and discuss it. The programme subcommittee of the RTÉ board does review content and programming. Content creation, of course, is very much dependent on revenue, licence fees and all that, so it fits into the previous discussion around that topic. I do, though, note the Deputy's observation.

There are so many talented programme makers out there.

Dr. P.J. Mathews

Yes.

They are making everything from documentaries, to drama and live music and all these different spheres of activity. There are opportunities here to provide new and fresh slots for these programme makers' output, as opposed to repeats. I do take the points made by Dr. Mathews, though. Equally, however, there does seem to be an increased proliferation of these repeats. I appreciate his response and that this issue will perhaps be taken up with the programming subcommittee.

My next point concerns something I am passionate about, as are many other people, namely, the whole area of wildlife, biodiversity and environmental programming.

As we are aware, and I appreciate Ms Ní Raghallaigh is just in the role since September, "Eco Eye" served the country so well. It covered the environmental topic incredibly well for over 21 years, one of the only programmes to do so on a regular basis, but, as we know, it wound down this year. RTÉ has said it has put out a public call for a replacement programme on environmental, climate and biodiversity issues, and I am wondering where that is. Sometimes, when it comes to public service broadcasting, we have to look at the public good and the service that a programmes does, as opposed to just flat viewing figures. With programming on climate change, wildlife and biodiversity, it is a case of "Build it and they will come". We have to provide a service to create awareness around loss of biodiversity and the climate change issue. I am looking for some answers in regard to what will replace “Eco Eye”, which gave such fantastic service for so long.

In the biodiversity and wildlife area, “Springwatch”, “Autumnwatch” and “Winterwatch” on the BBC have been a huge success in creating an incredible level of interest in biodiversity in the UK. Some of their citizen science projects, where they get people to go out and, for example, count insects or birds in their back garden, have been an extraordinary success. We do not have that level of uptake here. Is that type of programming something we could look at going forward? Again, that is in the context of perhaps ignoring the viewing figures, because I believe they will come, and just looking at the whole public service aspect of it.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I hear what the Deputy is saying and I am not disagreeing with him. We would like to be able to do lots of everything, and I am sure the commissioning department has a call out in regard to replacement of whatever needs to be replaced. I would add that we do quite a bit on radio as well in regard to the environment, and that is important to mention. I hear what the Deputy is saying and I will take it back. We do not necessarily get involved in editorial decisions and it is not part of what the board is there to do. It is part of the operation itself. As I said, we are undertaking a strategic review at the moment and I believe what comes out of that will be interesting and exciting, and we have a new director general starting as well, as the Deputy pointed out.

Tá cúpla ceist agam. Ms Ní Raghallaigh will appreciate that one of the primary responsibilities of the chair and the authority is the appointment of a new chief executive, and I certainly welcome the appointment of Kevin Bakhurst. However, I have to say it was not appropriate that a lot of that process was aired in public media. It was completely unfair to the candidates who were involved. If Ms Ní Raghallaigh or I were going for an interview, we would not want it splashed across the front pages. What assurances can Ms Ní Raghallaigh, as chair of the board, give us with regard to similar processes in RTÉ in the future so similar events do not occur?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The process we went with was rigorous, it was competitive and it was a unanimous decision by the board also. It is very unfortunate what happened. Nobody wanted to see that. However, it happened so I have to deal with it, and that is what we are doing. At the board, we have healthy and rigorous debate.

That is as it should be.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is as it should be, and that is part of the process. We also have obligations under the Broadcasting Act as board members and we have a code of conduct that we all adhere to as well. That is what we are working with. Moving forward, I would agree it was not ideal, but it happened and I cannot un-happen it.

I am happy on the basis of that and I wish the new director general well. It is important that RTÉ functions well. I agree with Deputy Christopher O’Sullivan that there is a lot that RTÉ does well; we have criticisms, and that criticism is healthy as well.

Ba mhaith liom freisin comhghairdeas a dhéanamh le Siún mar gheall ar a cuid oibre le TG4. Conas a shamhlaíonn sí todhchaí chraoltóireacht na Gaeilge?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Sílim go bhfuil craoltóireacht Ghaeilge mar atá sí faoi láthair, ach go háirithe le TG4 agus Raidió na Gaeltachta, in áit iontach maith. Déanann TG4 a ghnó mar fhoilsitheoir-craoltóir. Sin an modh atá acusan. Tá neart oibre déanta ag RTÉ le roinnt blianta anuas ó thaobh an méid clúdach Gaeilge atá siad ag déanamh agus ag coimisiúnú ón taobh amuigh. Le Gaeilge, táimid lárnach ann, RTÉ agus TG4. Oibríonn muid le chéile, mar is eol don Seanadóir, agus cuireann RTÉ roinnt uaireanta an chloig ar fáil fá choinne TG4 fosta. Sílim go bhfuil sé in áit iontach maith. Tá neart le déanamh, mar aon leis an méadú atá le déanamh ó thaobh cláir Bhéarla agus teangacha eile. Tá neart le déanamh ach táimid in áit mhaith agus tá sárobair déanta ag TG4, RnaG agus RTÉ.

I liked Ms Ní Raghallaigh's description of RTÉ as the national storyteller. Our question is that RTÉ is going to have to address the funding model. The independent production sector has been a major part of being that national storyteller. One of the questions we have considered in the committee is whether the model RTÉ should move towards is more of a publisher-broadcaster model that, as a leaner model, will allow it to compete in the digital space. The question is also whether Ms Ní Raghallaigh, as chair of the authority, considers that it is an appropriate model to consider, and also her vision for the independent production sector going forward within RTÉ.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I know I keep talking about the strategic review but it is very important. Everything is on the table as far as the board is concerned. We have to consider everything, and we have to consider it in terms of how realistic it is and how quickly we can move forward on those things. I cannot pre-empt what comes out of that process but we will be letting the committee know what that is quite soon.

It is important. The TG4 experience operated very effectively within the model. Our concern is how RTÉ can ensure it has a model that is sufficiently flexible in a very competitive international environment, where it is dealing with a lot more platforms, and how this can ensure that RTÉ remains the national storyteller. To be blunt, if Ms Ní Raghallaigh is going to try to convince those of us in here around funding models, we have to be certain that RTÉ represents value for money. Is it considering other models, rather than just the model that is in place?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is what I would expect the committee to do. As I say, with this review, that is certainly on the table and we have to look at how that might happen or not. It is part of a whole range of things that we are considering.

The Senator asked where I would see the independent sector. Independent companies are central in public service media and commercial media in that they are commissioned, are independent and come in with their own stories. The Senator referred to the storyteller, and they are a large part of that.

On the future for the independent sector, I would like to see it scaling up. I have worked in the independent sector and I have always been a supporter of it.

It goes from strength to strength, it is strengthening itself in terms of the international marketplace. It is important it is supported in that. It is also important that intellectual property is part of what these companies develop.

I welcome Ms Ní Raghallaigh. I wish her the best in her role. Following on from the remarks of Senator Byrne, it would be hypocritical in the extreme for us as politicians to criticise RTÉ for leaks from its board meetings, given that everything in these buildings is leaked daily to journalists, many of whom are employed by RTÉ. Notwithstanding that, I am sure Ms Ní Raghallaigh would agree that the leaks surrounding the sensitive subject of the appointment of a director general have caused reputational damage to the people concerned, not just the successful ones but the unsuccessful ones too. It has also caused brand damage to RTÉ.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I said, it is something that happened and we are dealing with it. Everything is a learning experience. We will take away from this and learn from it. As a board, we discussed it. It is unfortunate. I do not disagree with the Senator.

It absolutely is more than unfortunate. I congratulate the director general, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, and wish him well. I look forward to working with him in this committee. His credentials are extremely impressive. This question is linked to the fact that Ms Ní Raghallaigh focused a lot of her opening statement on the commercial future of RTÉ. The charge, in some circles, and as discussed in the newspapers, is that Mr. David McRedmond, who was one of the candidates, could have turned around the financial fortunes of RTÉ, given his impressive work as the chief executive officer of An Post. He turned that State body around and revolutionised its brand. The charge is that his style and grá for commercial reality did not fit within the internal ethos of RTÉ, which is why he did not get to the final fence. Is that an accurate scenario of how that played out?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I am sure the Senator appreciates, I am not going to comment on individuals.

I ask that we do not name any persons not present to defend themselves.

That is fine. The man has been well named in the media and we are here to discuss the media.

That is fine, but he is not here.

We are discussing the future of the media and the financial stability of huge swathes of our traditional media is extremely fragile. Mediahuis, the largest publisher in Ireland and the owner of the Irish Independent is currently involved in a large redundancy process. Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh accept that the privileged and protected position of RTÉ is over and it is going to have to get its act together financially? There have been calls from competitors like Virgin Media, the chief executive officer of which has been before the committee and has said quite clearly that it is not fair how funds and the licence fee are distributed and it will not be the same in the future, in terms of Cabinet grappling with that decision and how RTÉ is going to face that.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

As I said, we are undertaking a strategic review. Under the Broadcasting Act 2009, we have obligations and services we must provide. We are also grappling with everything, no different from any other broadcaster. We face the same competition. As I said in my opening statement, we do not have a population size that can sustain just on the licence fee and the dual-----

The media landscape is impacting broadcasting and print. How is RTÉ going to do that and how is Mr. Bakhurst as the director general, who presented his credentials, going to do that, given that advertisers are migrating away from traditional media in huge swathes and the fee RTÉ can command, if they even engage with RTÉ in a business manner, is diminishing?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is a global thing. Linear advertising is still quite strong. It has not fallen off the face of the earth. Linear advertising is still there. There are opportunities in the supply of content on other digital platforms, which we are examining at the moment. We face no different a challenge than any other broadcaster in that respect.

Early in her opening statement, Ms Ní Raghallaigh addressed the issue of a fragmented media landscape. People consume their news differently. Ms Éilis O'Hanlon, on the back of the Sunday Independent last week, had an extensive piece. The headline screamed, "RTÉ faces a simple choice: revolution or the slide into oblivion". She spoke about the different generations and people like my generation, whose week is bookended by RTÉ, starting with "Morning Ireland" and ending with "The Late Late Show". Ms Ní Raghallaigh said nine in ten adults access RTÉ on a weekly basis. I would like to know, from RTÉ's research, how many people in their late teens access RTÉ and how the new director general has impressed upon Ms Ní Raghallaigh his plans for the future of RTÉ, retaining its importance but capturing the audience coming up the line.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

It is not just RTÉ that faces the challenge of younger audiences. It is fragmented.

I do not disagree, but I only care about this country and this State broadcaster. I do not care about the challenges of the BBC or others but how RTÉ is going to face that challenge. Ultimately, the funding for RTÉ comes in large part from the Oireachtas.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We do learn from other territories as to how they do things, in the same way as we share information from here. It is a challenge and it is part of what we are examining at the moment, forming part and parcel of our discussions around the strategic plan.

I welcome both witnesses and thank them for appearing before the committee. Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh have a view about the appropriate rate of licence fee?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

There are complexities around the licence fee and many issues apart from the rate. We all know there has been no real increase in the licence fee for many years. It is not index-linked. Therefore RTÉ has to absorb the inflationary costs.

Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh think it should be higher?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

No, I am not saying that, but there are other things we can fix regarding the licence fee. As I said earlier, there is evasion and the trigger point at which you have to pay the licence fee because media is consumed in different ways now.

On finances, does RTÉ need the Montrose complex? Has it been valued?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I have not gone into that. I am only in the position a few months. There was a partial sale of the site several years ago. It is a fine site and there are plenty of renovations and so on being done.

Has a valuation been carried out?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

No. Not that I am aware of.

As a board, if you were facing financial difficulty, would you not value your assets? Virgin Media, for example, can operate out of an industrial estate in Ballymount and operates very well. Is the complex not surplus to requirements? Should that not have been examined already by the board?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Like everything, it is in part of the mix of what we are reviewing in the strategic review.

Regarding RTÉ's relationship with the Oireachtas, why does RTÉ consistently under-represent Government speakers in discussion panels and over-represent Opposition speakers? The expressed view of the people is a slight majority on the Government side, yet it is consistently three to one in discussions. Why is that? Is it not unfair?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The role of the board is not editorial and that is an editorial question.

Is it a matter for the board to consider whether the running of the organisation is being done in a fair way?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

It absolutely is.

That is why I was asking. Is that something Ms Ní Raghallaigh will review?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We do not get involved in editorial decisions.

The point I am raising is that there appears to be a distinct unfairness in how RTÉ is operating its news and current affairs programmes with panel discussions. Is that not a concern for the board and Ms Ní Raghallaigh, as chair of the board?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

There is a forum for the Deputy to approach RTÉ and express that opinion.

I am a Member of the Oireachtas expressing my opinion to Ms Ní Raghallaigh. Is that not something she will consider as chair of the board?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I hear what the Deputy is saying and can, of course, take it back to the organisation.

Will Ms Ní Raghallaigh review the handling of the decision to cancel an interview with Shane Ross on "The Claire Byrne Show" last year?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I cannot get into an editorial discussion. It is not our role.

Would Ms Ní Raghallaigh be concerned that a journalist would have an interview pulled?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am not going to comment on anything in respect of editorial decisions made by RTÉ news and current affairs. That is not my role.

Ms Ní Raghallaigh is saying that news and current affairs have a free run.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am not saying anything.

Is the board concerned about these things?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am not engaging in that. It is not our area.

Has that journalist been invited back to RTÉ since then?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I do not know who the Deputy is talking about.

I am talking about Shane Ross.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I have no idea if he has been invited back. It is not our-----

I am sorry to interrupt. In consideration of the remit of the invitation sent to the witnesses, I ask the Deputy to refrain from that line of questioning.

Okay. I will put on the record that I think it is an issue that should be a matter of concern for the board. How many serving Members of the Oireachtas are currently suing RTÉ?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I do not have that information.

Would Ms Ní Raghallaigh be able to issue that information to the committee, including the details of those concerned and any cases involving immediate family members of current Members of the Oireachtas? That is important information to have when considering the relationship between RTÉ and the Oireachtas.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I hear the Deputy's request and can take it back to the organisation.

That would be important. I also emphasise the importance of cases being taken by the immediate family members and spouses of serving Members of the Oireachtas. That would be important information for us to have in terms of the relationship between the Oireachtas and RTÉ, as the national broadcaster. It is a matter of public interest.

"The Late Late Show" is important for RTÉ. I presume it is one of the top earners in the context of advertising revenue. Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh think it has run its course in light of the impending departure of Ryan Tubridy, who has done a very good job. Is it time to consider moving on entirely from "The Late Late Show"?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is a decision for the executive board and what programmes it sees fit to go into the schedule.

Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh have any opinion on the matter?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

My personal opinion does not matter. It is an editorial decision that the executive board will take. As a board, we do not get involved in that.

Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh think that laissez-faire approach to current affairs and programming should be of concern to those of us who feel it is a convenient out for the board to say it does not get involved? There is a great deal of concern about the matter. Many people have expressed concerns to me about the news and current affairs side of RTÉ. No one seems to be accountable.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Dr. Mathews may wish to respond.

Dr. P.J. Mathews

We have a programme sub-committee which is the forum at which we engage with those matters. Our role is purely oversight. We do not get involved with editorial matters. It is not a laissez-faire approach by the board. There is oversight and we do have a process to have oversight over-----

In respect of the request for consideration of a review of the handling of the case last year, is that something the board would consider?

Dr. P.J. Mathews

To which case is the Deputy referring?

The Shane Ross case.

Let us refrain from that line of questioning.

I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh and Dr. Mathews for joining us. I wish Ms Ní Raghallaigh every success in the role. Bhí Gaeilge álainn líofa agam nuair a bhí mé i bhfad níos óige, ach tá sé beagnach go léir caillte agam anois. Leanfaidh mé ar aghaidh i mBéarla. Ms Ní Raghallaigh brings with her an extraordinary legacy of innovation and the development of exceptional content during her years with TG4. I thank her for that. It is the shining light in Irish broadcasting. I am not just saying that as a Galwegian but as somebody who values exceptionally high-quality content that reflects the very best of Irish culture in all of its diversity in the 21st century and instils in me a great sense of pride in who we are as a people and the things we cherish. I thank her for that work. I would love if she could bring some of that fairy dust or magic into her work with RTÉ. The future of RTÉ lies in producing that kind of content. Senator Cassells made the same point. I think of my son who lives in Philadelphia and my nephew who lives in Perth. How they consume their media is vastly different to the way I consumed media when I was their age. People are able to access, view and share the things that are the very best of who we are as a people, no matter where they live in the world. That is exceptionally important. The chairmanship of an organisation of the scale and stature of RTÉ is significant. Deep in her own heart, Ms Ní Raghallaigh obviously has ambitions as to what her legacy will be at the end of her term. We can focus on that. In all of our discussions about the licence fee and the value we get from it, we must remember that every country should have a public broadcasting entity. In our case, that is RTÉ, and there are similar entities in other countries. Such entities focus on promoting and valuing the very best of the culture of that country. In a world that is becoming evermore cacophonous with some very dubious and questionable content flowing onto our laptops, smart phones and iPads, it is a significant role that RTÉ should focus on in the future.

I will return to consider my son in Philadelphia and my nephew in Perth. There are 35 million Americans who would make the case that they have Irish ancestry. What plans does RTÉ have to develop content for our diaspora around the world? There are 70 million people around the world who are either full Irish citizens or who claim Irish ancestry. That is something that RTÉ has failed to tap into in the past and should focus on tapping into in the future. In a world where mobile devices can give us instant access to any broadcaster on any side of the planet at any time of the day or night, RTÉ has a major role to play in our ability to connect with our people around the world in a more meaningful way and to begin to nurture a sense of an Irish community worldwide. TG4 has done extraordinary work in that area on a smaller scale. Is that something that Ms Ní Raghallaigh anticipates as a part of her role as chair in the future? As innovation in RTÉ is ongoing, will that become part of her plan and part of the ambition and vision?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is already happening, in a way. We are in the global media world and the diaspora has access to the programming on RTÉ via the RTÉ Player and so on. There is interaction in terms of other platforms as well. That absolutely must be developed. It is an opportunity.

Returning to consideration of storytelling, we are trying to ensure RTÉ embraces digital challenges and goes with the opportunities that are there. That is what we are doing.

Part and parcel of that is the availability not just to our own population on the island but outside of the island via the player and other technologies.

In terms of resources and resourcing the player so that it functions as it should for anybody in any part of the world, what are the challenges presenting to RTÉ right now? Is there an issue around licensing, for example? If RTÉ commissions work on, for instance, the history of Dublin city, are there licensing issues that prevent RTÉ from allowing that to be broadcast on the player across a number of different regions? Is that a financial problem or a legal problem? Certain content on the player is simply not available outside of the island of Ireland. How does Ms Ní Raghallaigh envision overcoming that? Does she propose to overcome that?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We are in a world where everybody wants everything available, but there are legacy issues. There is programming that the organisation might have made years ago for which clearances have not been achieved, and that is just the way that is. If the programme-----

What about future content?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

In future content, yes, that is absolutely required. The licensing and agreements with the producers of programmes covers all that now, where possible. Where there is a lot of archiving news, maybe there is a problem there but otherwise that would be part and parcel of how business is done now.

I thank the Deputy. Our next speakers are Senators Warfield and Dooley.

I am happy for Senator Dooley to go first.

I welcome Ms Ní Raghallaigh and Dr. Mathews. I congratulate Ms Ní Raghallaigh on taking on the role as chairperson of RTÉ at a time it is pretty difficult to get people to take on those kinds of onerous positions given the criticism they come in for when they step forward. She deserves recognition and credit for taking on that role and, as others have said, bringing her very considerable background knowledge and experience, which, of course, will be a help.

I want to deal with that matter regarding the leak from the board in the first instance. It has put Ms Ní Raghallaigh in a difficult position and that is really unfortunate as she has just stepped into the role. It is pretty wrong of somebody who sits on a board or members on a board who should know their fiduciary duty to the company. They have done a disservice to the organisation and to all those who work in it when a process is established that they are not prepared to follow. That is unfortunate. I do not know what Ms Ní Raghallaigh can do about it, quite frankly. As others have said, leaks happen. It is a bit of a difference between leaks between politicians and others, however. When a person is appointed to a board, he or she has a fiduciary duty and is paid to do job, and that has been lost. Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh think it will impact at all on her ability to engage with the executive? She said she has undertaken a strategic review with the executive. If I was an executive in RTÉ, I would be concerned perhaps about sharing my views with the board now where I might not feel that I have the capacity for it to remain within the four walls. Is that something she has a concern about?

I have a very strong belief about the importance of a public service broadcaster quite apart from any other media. Ms Ní Raghallaigh has rightly identified that is set out in her obligations in legislation and that puts a significant burden on her. The question I always ask is whether we as a society believe in public service broadcasting. If the answer to that is "Yes", it is a duty on us as politicians to pay for it and find a way to do that. In that context, what more does Ms Ní Raghallaigh think Government or Government bodies can do to support and protect the integrity of the public service media at a time there are unprecedented challenges, particularly from technological advances? I am inviting Ms Ní Raghallaigh to come back at us and tell us what more we should do.

What does she see as the biggest challenges of the next three years in her organisation? Has she had any sense of how the board intends to deal with the funding challenge? Everybody has referred to it. When I was previously an Opposition spokesperson in this area, I prepared a paper that recommended a public service broadcasting charge on the basis that, as Ms Ní Raghallaigh has identified, the consumption of media is now on an iPhone, smartphone, iPad or whatever and, rightly, people do not have to pay a licence fee quite simply because they are not breaking the laws but they are consuming media. That is growing in more and more homes. It is a bit like new building regulations that require people not to have a chimney. It is almost now that a person is not required to have a television either because he or she can consume all the media in that way. For me, the broadcasting charge was the obvious one because it broadened the base and retained that link between people believing that they were paying for something they were getting rather than just putting a further burden on general taxation. I always liked the idea that it is no different from paying for electricity. Most people pay for cable or Sky, as I do. People have no problem paying for Sky. Some have a problem paying for a licence. I do not get it but, obviously, others do. Ms Ní Raghallaigh might try to answer some of those questions.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

To close off the first issue about the leak, it is a privilege to be in a very responsible position to be a member of a board of an organisation like RTÉ. There is a job to build up trust again but I have no concerns about it. I am very confident that is the way we are going.

The Future of Media Commission report and its support for it has reaffirmed the importance of public service broadcasting. All the recommendations in that regard are accepted. The one issue is funding, as we all know. We have to work together. I am glad the Senator brought it back to this. I am looking forward and I want to be part of a board and work with an executive and with all members here, etc., to build and redefine the organisation, but build a legacy for the next generation as well. We have a lot of work to do around that and it does require that we restate why it is that the licence fee is so important. That is what we are about. That is what we want to come back to the committee with to say this is what we are doing and this is why this is value for money. Everything is value for money, of course, but how do we say what the value is? Not everything is about audience numbers. We have obligations under the legislation and we want to fulfil those within the limited finances we have.

Dr. P.J. Mathews

Through history, Irish political leaders have always had the vision and commitment to support the evolution of public service broadcasting. We might look at the setting up of the radio service in the 1920s and the television service in the 1960s when Ireland was moving towards a more modern moment. Now, as we have moved into the 21st century, we are moving into a new phase to work with the people in this building to have a public service organisation that is fit for purpose for the digital world. I am privileged that I work in my day job with really creative young people who are full of talent in the fields of film, television, creative writing, drama and so on. I see great possibilities every day. The role that RTÉ plays as a driver for creativity in this nation cannot be underestimated. As I said, at every stage in our history the politicians have done the right thing. I am hoping when it comes back-----

Back at you. To conclude on that, is the biggest challenge for the next three years just money or is it technological?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

No. The money is a big part of it but the biggest challenge is the fragmentation of audiences and how we capture that and how we reinforce the relevance of RTÉ. It is not just RTÉ; it is all indigenous media to because it is from outside. We have to be there and we have to be relevant. The challenge is to be on that same footing, which is really important, and to engage. There is a sense that this is our national channel, and it is. That is, therefore, where we have to get to.

I conclude by offering my congratulations and best wishes to Kevin Bakhurst. I served on a committee he came before on many occasions. He demonstrated his abilities at that time and I am sure he will do so again. I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh and the board for the work they do on behalf of the public service.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I thank the Senator.

I thank the witnesses for joining us. The discussion has been interesting. People want RTÉ to do this and that and everything under the sun and also want RTÉ to cut, cut, cut. They ignore the cuts RTÉ has made and introduced over the years. I am always conscious of that. If Virgin Media had a choice between Montrose and Ballymount, I think it would choose Ballymount. The assets RTÉ has should be protected and built upon. I will come back to those assets. I have what might be an unusual request relating to the land at RTÉ.

My colleague, Deputy Munster, raised the licence fee as regards the technical working group. In September, the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, said that the working group would report in November and I read in an article by Laura Slattery in The Irish Times today that reform will be in place by quarter 3 of 2024. Has any progress been reported or has Ms Ní Raghallaigh been made aware of any progress around the technical working group?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

In her report on the implementation of the recommendations of the future of media commission, in November, the Minister set out that the recommendation around the licence was, as the Senator stated, to set up the technical group and to report back. We have not yet received that report. The timing of the report, what the recommendations are, how they are debated and how they will be implemented in 2024 is not clear. I am aware of the support the Minister is giving to us in that regard and I imagine it is imminent.

We do not have a timeline.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

No.

Channel 4 is often mentioned at this committee as a publisher and broadcaster but we rarely talk about the remit the British Government has given to Channel 4 with regard to inclusive voices, taking bold creative risks and inspiring change. There is something in that template for any public service broadcaster that is looking to connect with our younger generations. I want to put that on the record. Sometimes I feel we hear the same voices that have been on TV and radio all our lives, all the time and we rarely hear alternative voices on panel discussions. Could a piece of work be done to measure how often a new person or a first time voice is aired in the media? It would probably help to include more alternative voices. That is just a comment.

Ms Ní Raghallaigh has always been a strong voice for studio space and has great experience with Ardmore Studios and Troy Studios. She is now the new chair of an organisation that is proud to support the arts. She will be aware that artists' spaces in this city and artists' income are probably the biggest issues after housing. A Dublin City Council cultural infrastructure audit stated there was "a scarcity of affordable, safe and accessible artist/maker workspaces in Dublin". We have 2,500 artists but 529 artist work spaces for them. We have visited RTÉ. At times it is obvious that there is spare capacity in Montrose in the form of unused office space. Would Ms Ní Raghallaigh consider using that spare capacity to address the needs of artists in this city? It would be easy to say "no" to this, but it would also be easy to say "yes". It would not cost that much. Would it not be great for the atmosphere in Montrose? I plead with her to consider the issue that exists in this city, especially given the central location of RTÉ.

Ms Ní Raghallaigh mentioned intellectual property rights earlier in the discussion. Will she expand on that if possible?

My final question might not be in her remit. There are discussions in Europe around the definition of European works and the possibility, although I am not so sure how possible it is, of the exclusion of Britain from the definition of European works and what that could mean for RTÉ and Virgin Media. That might be the new director's responsibility.

If she has comments about artists' spaces, Channel 4 and intellectual property, I would welcome them.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes, I agree with the Senator about artists' spaces. The cities are being denuded. I am certainly happy to bring his suggestion back to RTÉ and to put it in the pot. I cannot gift it.

Will the Senator clarify his question about Channel 4?

I suppose it was more of a comment. She does not need to address it. I was talking about the template that exists there for platforming diversity. It is a good template for RTÉ if we are looking to reach young people, which RTÉ has a bit of a problem with.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We communicate with other broadcasters, especially public service broadcasters. I agree that Channel 4 has a good template and everything we are considering now involves looking at what others are doing. There are definitely lessons there.

I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh and wish her luck in her role.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Seanadóir.

I will be brief with my questioning. I congratulate Ms Ní Raghallaigh and wish her the best in her new role. I also congratulate Kevin Bakhurst on his appointment as director general.

As the chair of the board of RTÉ, what does Ms Ní Raghallaigh feel are the top priorities for the broadcaster in the coming years? Will she share her vision for the future of RTÉ and how she would like to see it evolve as the State broadcaster over the next decade?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I would like to see it evolving as a central part of public service media on this island; providing the audience with diversified, home-made content that is distributed across various platforms and attracts different age groups who will probably move into different ways of viewing and so on; and it being financially stable to the degree it can fulfil its remit under the Broadcasting Act.

Is the finance issue a real concern for her as the chair of the board? Is putting RTÉ on a solid financial footing a key priority?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

It is a priority because one has to be able to plan for the future. In terms of outlining the vision for the next five to ten years, one can have as many visions as one wants but if one does not know what the income will be, it is difficult. It is important because we need to be able to plan and undertake necessary capital investment in the national infrastructure that is to the benefit of all. We have to be able to do those things and to show through our content why it is important. We are a creative organisation and we work with the independent sector, which is from where much of the creativity comes. Internally, we have a lot of talented people working with us. There are many different obligations to which we must adhere and we have to change how we deliver on those as well. We need to consider how we do the range of evolution we have to undertake, how that is distributed across platforms and how we are going to be able to fund that. Those are the challenges. Finance is a big part of it but it is not the only thing.

I am sure the past four months in her new role have been a learning experience for Ms Ní Raghallaigh. What are the key lessons on which she has reflected in terms of the appointment of the director general and her initial engagement with the executive board members?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The past four months have been very interesting. I came in from the outside. It is an amazing organisation with incredible talent. It has to want to evolve. My engagement with the executive board has been very positive. As aboard, we are working closely with them on the important work we are doing on the strategy. I am very hopeful. I see a lot of opportunities for the future for RTÉ and how central it will be in society. We have to get there but there are a couple of things that need to be taken care of along the way. I see where we will be more involved in terms of how we ask for support from legislators, this committee and so on.

When does Ms Ní Raghallaigh expect the strategic review to be published? What will it comprise from 2023 to 2025 or beyond?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I expect we will be talking about that in the latter part of this year.

In terms of a roadmap for implementation, that is key-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That is the key part of it.

-----in the context of following through on commitments and how we in the Oireachtas can support RTÉ in that process.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Exactly.

I thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh and Dr. Mathews for attending the meeting. Standing Orders provide that the committee has the power to require that the chairperson designate of bodies under the aegis of its line Department attend before the committee to discus their strategic priorities for the role. Today's meeting will be considered to have discharged that requirement in this regard. Is that agreed? Agreed. I propose that the committee now move into private session to deal with matters of housekeeping and correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

The joint committee went into private session at 4.24 p.m. and adjourned at 4.54 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 3 May 2023.
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