Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 2023

Future of Sports Broadcasting: Discussion

An Cathaoirleach

I welcome the witnesses. I think committee members feel as though they have lived in this room for the past three weeks. It is great to be here anyway. It may be our last day this week.

We have two substitutions today. Senator Sherlock will substitute for Senator Hoey and Senator Ó Donnghaile will substitute for Senator Warfield. We do not have any apologies so I will crack on with the business of the meeting.

The committee is meeting today in two separate sessions to consider the future of sports broadcasting. The first session has been convened with representatives of Sport Ireland, the Federation of Irish Sport, the FAI, the GAA and IRFU. In our second session we will continue our examination of the same topic, hearing from representatives of RTÉ, TG4, Virgin Media Ireland, Sky Ireland and Independent Broadcasters of Ireland. It is proposed that the committee will consider one item of business in a private session between the public sessions. Is that agreed? Agreed.

As I said, today's meeting will focus on the future of sports broadcasting . I warmly welcome all our guests to committee room 1. From Sport Ireland, I welcome Mr. Paul McDermott, director of high performance, and Mr. Fergus Hannigan, communications and public affairs manager. From the Federation of Irish Sport, I welcome Ms Mary O'Connor, CEO, who needs no introduction. I am delighted to see her again. From the GAA, we welcome Mr. Tom Ryan, ard-stiúrthóir, and Mr. Peter McKenna, commercial director. From the FAI, I welcome Mr. Jonathan Hill, CEO, and Mr. Mark Scanlon, League of Ireland director. They are all welcome. From the IRFU, I welcome Mr. Kevin Potts, CEO, and Mr. Pádraig Power, chief commercial officer. I hope we have all their names and titles correct. They are all welcome.

I have to go through a little housekeeping so I ask the witnesses to bear with me.

The format of today's meeting is that I will invite our witnesses to deliver their opening statements which are limited to three minutes. I will have to be strict about that today. As they will see, we have a huge committee. My colleagues will have four minutes so I hope the witnesses will not think me rude to guillotine them at three minutes. I will have to do so and stick firmly to it. The statements will be followed by questions from committee members. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed to opening statements, I will explain some limitations regarding parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references made by witnesses to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. However, a few of the witnesses are giving evidence remotely today from outside the parliamentary precincts. As such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as a witness physically present does. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement.

I propose we now proceed to the opening statements. I will call on witnesses in the following order: Mr. Paul McDermott on behalf of Sport Ireland; Ms Mary O'Connor on behalf of the Federation of Irish Sport; Mr. Tom Ryan on behalf of the GAA; Mr. Jonathan Hill on behalf of the FAI; and Mr. Kevin Potts on behalf of the IRFU. Mr. McDermott has three minutes.

Mr. Paul McDermott

It is nice to be here. I thank the Chairperson and committee members for the invitation to attend this meeting today to discuss the future of sports broadcasting in Ireland. Sport Ireland is the statutory authority tasked with the development of sport in Ireland. Established under the Sport Ireland Act 2015 we are tasked with increasing participation in sport; supporting Ireland’s high-performance athletes; operating Ireland’s anti-doping programme; delivering coaching training; and developing the Sport Ireland Campus. Sport Ireland focuses its work on ensuring that Ireland is an active nation where people are encouraged to participate, progress and achieve in sport. As a statutory agency, Sport Ireland engaged with the Future of Media Commission in 2021. In our submission, we highlighted the need to explore innovative solutions between media and rights holders, who are the sporting bodies; to protect events of cultural significance through the free-to-air broadcast list; and importantly to diversify the coverage of sporting events and increase visibility of women’s sport. The Future of Media Commission report was published in July 2022.

It made recommendations for sports broadcasting that prioritise strategy development and enhancing diversity, inclusion, access and training. To address these recommendations, live sporting events consistently rank among the most-watched events in Ireland. We recognise the relationship between sporting bodies and media organisations, which is key to revenue generation, the development of local talent and the cultural significance of sport in Ireland. When developing a strategic plan, it is important to consider more than just broadcasting major events on television. It is also a chance to highlight a variety of sports through various formats and mediums while promoting coverage of activities that align with policies aimed at promoting a more active population.

Innovation is already influencing how sport is broadcast and consumed. The League of Ireland, the United Rugby Championship and the GAA championships all offer paid streaming services for matches. Sport Ireland supports over 60 national governing bodies and we hope that this innovation will be able to bring greater variety to the type of sports covered. There has been discussion in the media around accessibility to streaming platforms. Sport Ireland is not a regulator. As a development agency, we recognise the autonomy of our national governing bodies, NGBs. We acknowledge that, as rights holders, they can enter into commercial agreements that they believe are in the best interest of developing their sport. Balancing free access and commercial realities is difficult. There is a mechanism in place through the free-to-air broadcast list to guarantee the availability of sporting events with a distinct cultural value. The list is under review and there are clear criteria for how events are chosen. The free-to-air list should be renewed to ensure access to specific events.

An evolution is happening in the sports sector in Ireland, particularly around the growth of women in sport. The FIFA Women’s World Cup is one of the most anticipated live sporting events this year. Enhancing diversity in sports reporting and broadcasting will be key. The Sport Ireland women in sport policy sets an objective to increase the visibility and profile of our female role models in sport. Sport Ireland is actively pursuing this objective. For example, in June 2022, Sport Ireland supported 12 candidates to complete a media training programme for female pundits and analysts.

To briefly conclude, Sport Ireland is engaging with the media regulator on the implementation of the recommendations of the Future of Media Commission. We welcome the discussion with the committee and are happy to answer any questions on behalf of Sport Ireland.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. McDermott, particularly for sticking to the time. It is much appreciated. I call Ms Mary O'Connor on behalf of the Federation of Irish Sport

Ms Mary O'Connor

I thank the Chairperson, Deputies and Senators for inviting the Federation of Irish Sport to make a statement on the future of sports broadcasting. The federation is an independent representative body for 110 sporting organisations across Ireland, including 81 NGBs and 29 local sports partnerships.

Sports broadcasting internationally and in Ireland has evolved significantly in recent years due to new technology enhancing sports broadcasts and an increase in different platforms such as digital, streaming, subscription, pay per view and so on. Our opening statement today will focus on the future of sports broadcasting in Ireland. We believe there are opportunities for the provision of sports coverage to stimulate appetite and generate change in the perception of sport among non-traditional audiences and that this can impact participation rates and facilitate the growth of a cross-section of sports.

Our first point is on broadening the number of sports being covered. It remains the case that a significant amount of broadcast coverage in Ireland is market-driven and focuses on the sports of football, rugby, Gaelic games and horse racing. This coverage exposes these sports to intergenerational audiences and creates a connection that generates consumer, fan and supporter engagement as well as commercial income for the sports involved. The federation believes that there is a significant opportunity for niche and emerging sports to have their sports competitions made available to a larger and more diverse audience through public service broadcasting and terrestrial television. Ireland has world and European champions in the sports of boxing, rowing, kickboxing and gymnastics, to name but a few. However, coverage of these sports is largely dependent on success at international level.

The federation appreciates that public service broadcasting is facing severe challenges due to changes in technology, consumer behaviour and business models. However, we believe that the magazine-type programmes of the past, "Sports Stadium" and "Sports Saturday", could be replicated today by engaging with sports that have engaged private providers to stream or record NGB national or international events where elite athletes are competing. We believe a magazine-type programme would provide the opportunity for new intergenerational and non-traditional audiences to become engaged in new sports, thereby increasing awareness and stimulating interest in participating in the sport while simultaneously growing membership numbers and facilitating sports to generate revenue through membership, event sponsorship and commercial endorsement.

The prioritised sports under the National Sports Policy 2018-2027 are swimming, running and cycling as they are believed to have the greatest potential for generating higher levels of active participation across the life course. If the policy seeks to ensure that children have the necessary skills to engage in these activities in a meaningful way then, along with the provision of opportunities to learn and participate at grassroots level, exposure to them via events and competitions on television, online and through streaming is of vital importance.

On women in sport, the broadcast of women’s sport has greatly increased over the last five years, in particular since the 20x20 campaign that captured the imagination of a nation. However, it must be said that the coverage from TG4 of ladies Gaelic football has been an outlier as TG4 has dedicated two decades of superior and innovative coverage that has played a large part in the popularity of the sport as well as increasing participation levels across players, officials and volunteers. This should be seen as an example of how the broadcasting of women in sport via television, online broadcast and streaming can transform perception, participation and the generation of commercial opportunities for sport organisations.

I appreciate that my time is up so I will be very brief. Like in all good games, there is at least three minutes of injury time. With regard to funding, the federation believes organisations that are recognised as NGBs and local sports partnerships by Sport Ireland should have access to a separate fund to apply for funding to support television and online coverage of sports that receive low, inconsistent or no broadcast exposure such as women's sports, disability sport, niche and emerging sports and those sports that command high levels of community involvement and participation. There is precedent for this in another jurisdiction. The Australian Government provided $30 million to Fox Sports from 2017 to 2021. That resulted in 1,300 hours of live coverage and approximately 3,000 hours of coverage in total of women’s, niche and emerging sports that would otherwise not have been covered.

An Cathaoirleach

Since Ms. O'Connor is so blessed among all these men today, I could not but let her continue. Well done, especially on that last point. I call Mr. Tom Ryan on behalf of the GAA.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I thank the committee very much for this opportunity to meet with it today to share some of the GAA’s perspectives on broadcasting and the role it can play in promoting our sports. Our fundamental mission is to promote playing football and hurling, to encourage people to participate and to foster lifelong involvement that will sustain us into the next generation. Making matches available for people to watch is a key part of that not as an end in itself, but in order to create a profile for the games, to provide enjoyment to a wider audience and, of course, to generate the funds that enable us to further our core ambitions.

The GAA occupies a central role in people’s lives. We know and appreciate that and we know that this carries with it certain responsibilities. In recent years, as attendances at our matches have increased, so too has the demand for televised games. As our competition structures have evolved, so too has our approach to media rights. What the future will hold is by no means certain but it will be different. People no longer watch television in the same way. Sport is perhaps the last bastion of appointment viewing. Behaviours, tastes and attitudes will change and new technologies will emerge. The GAA’s track record is one of flexibility and innovation and we will need to adapt and evolve further just to keep pace with a rapidly changing broadcast landscape. We have done that before.

In order to consider our future, we need to reflect briefly on the trends of the recent past. In 2013, we fundamentally reappraised how we broadcast games. We bundled rights into discrete packages and assigned them, for the first time, to a wide variety of partners across all platforms. The rationale was to reduce dependence upon one partner, to introduce an element of competition, to address newly emerging demands and to prompt innovation in how the games are presented. At that time, we also launched our own broadcast medium, GAAGO. This was a joint venture we established with RTÉ in order to produce our own content and to address niche markets via streaming.

The years since have been very exciting and progressive but have not been without their challenges. Successive years have seen more games shown on TV and increasing commentary about how and where those games should be shown. The Covid pandemic caused us to again reconsider our approach. People could not go to games but the need to enjoy matches in our homes was never more acute. We recast the GAA model completely. Showing every game became the norm and streaming became the accepted way of catering for diverse demand. The sale of media rights in 2022 presented us with an opportunity to learn from that. For the first time, we assigned rights for live games to GAAGO. However, that should not have obscured the fact that the number of free-to-air games on TV is actually higher than ever before and that those games that are on GAAGO would previously either have been on Sky TV or, more probably, not shown at all.

GAAGO has existed and flourished for eight years. The new arrangements and schedule were launched some six months before a ball was even pucked. However, one date change for a game, which was beyond our control, the fantastic match that followed and some unfortunate commentary around our coverage set us on a difficult trajectory for the summer.

I will conclude and offer my apologies to the Cathaoirleach. To be positive about things, it is great that people want to see our matches. The hurling and football this summer have been fantastic. However, the expectation that every single game should be on television is just not realistic. It is not in our interest and not in our plans. We are very grateful for the support of our media partners and the watching public. We look forward to serving that audience in ever greater numbers in the years ahead.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Ryan. I call Mr. Hill, representing the FAI.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators on behalf of the FAI for this invite to address the committee on the future of sports broadcasting in Ireland. As many of them will know, football is the single biggest participation sport in this country, with more than 450,000 people in Ireland directly involved in football and for whom the FAI has a strategic vision to "use football to inspire the nation and connect communities" and a mission "to grow participants to our game and deliver the best footballing experience for all".

Driving investment to achieve our strategy is a key enabler of our four-year strategy through to the end of 2025, and a crucial part of this is growing new revenues for all aspects of the game through a robust, sustainable and long-term investment strategy. The revenue generated from broadcast and media rights therefore plays a key role in supporting the work we do as an association. In growing revenues, however, there is always a need to ensure that the right balance is reached between that desire to grow the financial pot and ensuring the right level of visibility for the game.

As a principle, the FAI, like many other sports rights holders, has always sought to partner with free-to-air broadcasters to show at least a proportion of its games as we believe this is an important part of growing overall interest in and viewership of our sport. Our briefing note gave more detail as to how we have commercialised our key rights, so I will not go into too much detail in this overview. Suffice it to say that the FAI works with UEFA in the commercialisation of the broadcast rights around our men's senior team and, as part of that arrangement, RTÉ has the right to show those games in Ireland.

When it comes to the League of Ireland, again, our ideal broadcast scenario would be to have a mix of free-to-air games - generating as much revenue as the market may bear as well as maximum exposure for a certain number of games - and then, typically, a second broadcast partner with potentially more ability and-or inventory to be able to show a larger number of games live. The reality is that this ideal scenario cannot always be created and, as such, the FAI has had to be creative in its approach, especially during the extraordinarily difficult Covid period.

I will ask Mr. Mark Scanlon, to my right, to answer any questions the committee may have about our League of Ireland TV, LOITV, platform. Suffice it to say that every men's League of Ireland game as well as every women's League of Ireland game is now being shown live. This model has proven popular with fans, who could watch their clubs' matches during the lockdown period and who are now able to enjoy even more League of Ireland matches.

That is where we currently stand. However, it is clear that, along with many other sports, globally and not just in Ireland, we will need to continue to be creative and innovative in our approach to providing broadcast solutions for our fans, both here and abroad, both existing and new, especially as the traditional broadcast market generally, and not just for sport, becomes more challenged by the rise of the social media giants and the subsequent, and at times dramatic, shifts in media consumption among different demographics and age groups.

We believe that the UEFA deal is a good one for the FAI and Irish football and it is one of the many reasons we believe in the broad UEFA model. On the other hand, we believe there is real opportunity for growth in the media rights values to the League of Ireland, but it is up to us either to persuade others of that potential or to continue to grow LOITV with the right group of partners.

As I hope all members will know, we at the FAI continue to work hard on creating a sustainable and well-managed financial future for the association so we can break free of a difficult past. As such, we must continue to focus on this key area of our business. We welcome the committee's efforts to examine the future of sports broadcasting in Ireland and beyond.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Hill. Finally, I turn to Mr. Kevin Potts from the IRFU.

Mr. Kevin Potts

We are pleased to be invited to today's meeting of the Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sports and Media and really welcome the opportunity to appear and make an input into the future of sports broadcasting in Ireland. I will hand over immediately to my colleague, Mr. Padraig Power, chief commercial officer, our expert in this area, who will give a brief overview of the current broadcasting climate for rugby in Ireland.

Mr. Padraig Power

I will try to be as brief as possible because I know time is of the essence.

By way of background, the IRFU is the national governing body for the sport of rugby union in Ireland. It is an all-Ireland, 32-county sport and we are a not-for-profit organisation, meaning that every penny that is generated is funnelled directly back into the sport. We are volunteer-led and managed by a professional executive.

At the elite end of our sport, we have five professional men's teams: Ireland, Leinster, Munster, Connacht and Ulster. For our women's 15s team, we have recently introduced a contracting model for the first time. Below these teams we have sub-academies and national pathways feeding into these teams. Underneath the elite level we have more than 250,000 players, both men and women, boys and girls, enjoying playing the game across the country.

As an organisation, our business model is very straightforward. The professional game generates revenue through match day ticket sales, sponsorship, merchandising and broadcast contracts. These revenues must pay for the cost of running professional rugby and at the same time must create a surplus which is invested back into the grassroots of the game. Our strategy is to repeat this cycle, which allows us to grow participation from which we can nurture and develop talent. It has served us well. The Ireland men's team is currently number one in the world. We secured a memorable grand slam in the Six Nations in 2023. Our provinces continue to compete for honours at the top of the European game every year, with Munster winning the URC title last May. Our under-20s men are in the final of the world championship this Friday in South Africa against France, and we wish them every success.

On the women's side of the game, major investment is being made to ensure that our women's 15s team has all the support necessary to become a competitive team. From a TV point of view, the Vodafone women's inter-provincial series kicks off in a few weeks with all games live on TG4, and our women's and men's 7s teams have both qualified for the 2024 Paris Olympic games. We will continue to provide our utmost support to them in their preparation over the coming year.

Turning to today, we are here to discuss the future of the broadcasting landscape in Ireland. It is important that we share how we are set up in terms of broadcasting arrangements. Broadcasting income remains the most important revenue stream we have as it underpins the very structure of our sport and represents between 20% and 25% of our income. It is critical to note that success for Irish rugby is maintaining the balance between promoting our games to as wide an audience as possible while at the same time generating the necessary revenues to fund and grow our sport at all levels. The IRFU, together with its counterpart unions in England, France, Italy, Scotland and Wales, formed the Six Nations, and their brief is to sell the rights for all matches, men, women and under-20s, centrally to try to drive the revenues up as much as possible. The IRFU is also a shareholder in EPCR, the entity that organises European rugby, and we are a founding member of the Celtic League. The four provinces play in all these tournaments and, like the Six Nations, the broadcast rights are sold centrally on behalf of all participating teams.

Today's meeting is about the future of sports broadcasting. It is a very complex issue. The media landscape is fragmenting very quickly, and the manner in which people consume their sport is changing and in constant flux. This represents a real challenge for sport and for broadcasters, and the demand for more than whistle-to-whistle coverage is growing rapidly as the line between entertainment and sport blurs. How we as sports rights holders and broadcasters react and manage this is critical. In Irish rugby we challenge take this very seriously. We are very happy to be here today to join this discussion and we look forward to making a very positive contribution on this very important topic.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank all the witnesses for sticking so well to the time. I very much appreciate that.

I will turn to my colleagues for questions and answers. Members, you have been circulated with the speaking rota and you know that time is really tight, that is, four minutes each. How you use your four minutes, whether it is a statement or trying to elicit information, I leave up to you. First up is Deputy Andrews.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I understand we are really tight for time so I will be to the point, and I would appreciate if the answers could be to the point as well.

When the contract with Sky expired, did the GAA approach any other broadcasters? If not, why not? In the witnesses' opinion, is RTÉ's involvement in GAAGO in conflict with its remit as a public broadcaster when it is RTÉ's responsibility to serve the public interest? How can it serve two masters? How does that work? Maybe the witnesses could give just a quick reply to those questions.

Mr. Tom Ryan

The answer to Deputy Andrews's first question is "Yes". We approached every broadcaster and every potential partner that was in the market. The cycle is probably over a one-year duration, and everybody had the opportunity to participate. Members will see that in our submission is detailed the wide variety of people who in fact did participate. Everybody had the option.

In answer to the Deputy's second question, I do not have any particular expertise in respect of RTÉ's public service obligations so I am perhaps not the best person to answer what RTÉ's obligations might be or how it is serving them.

Deputy Chris Andrews

Mr. Ryan does not have a view on that then.

Mr. Tom Ryan

Our GAAGO perspective is from the GAA side of things. We do our best to make sure the interests of the GAA are served in that particular venture. With respect, it is probably a question that would be more properly and better answered by RTÉ.

Mr. Peter McKenna

To add to that, RTÉ brings a tremendous technical ability to the GAAGO partnership. We would not have the expertise to deliver that level of quality of streaming. We needed that expertise and RTÉ is by far the best to do it for us.

Deputy Chris Andrews

How does it reflect on the GAA that in this day and age, female footballers and camogie players are on our television screens week in, week out having to hold protests at matches to try to get basic minimum standards in place? I acknowledge and support the women camogie players and footballers. Will the GAA intervene? Clearly, it cannot wash its hands of this particular issue because when it is promoting games, the GAA leverages women and women’s participation for ticket sales. What interaction is the GAA having with the Gaelic Players Association, GPA?

Mr. Tom Ryan

We have been through this particular journey 15 or 20 years ago when we had to accept that standards for male footballers and hurlers were not what they should have been. As an organisation, we fully subscribe to the idea that certain standards are required and deserved by all players as-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

I am sorry for interrupting but what is the GAA doing to ensure that female participants get equality?

Mr. Tom Ryan

The first point worth noting, and it is important, is that as matters stand, we do not govern those two sports. We support them but-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

The GAA uses women footballers and camogie players to sell its tickets.

Mr. Tom Ryan

We do not govern those sports. What we are doing-----

Deputy Chris Andrews

The GAA cannot wash its hands of this though.

Mr. Tom Ryan

We are here and I know we will be talking about governance as a topic. There are two governing bodies that take responsibility for those games. I do not think it would be proper on our part to intervene and usurp their authority. We are in the background and we support the two organisations in question in all manner of ways. I would like to think they would acknowledge and accept that. If and when those organisations call upon us to play a role, we will do so.

Deputy Chris Andrews

They have not asked the GAA to intervene yet.

Mr. Tom Ryan

It is quite the opposite, in fact. Both organisations are dealing with this issue in their own right.

Deputy Chris Andrews

The GPA has not asked the GAA to intervene.

Mr. Tom Ryan

The GPA has asked us to intervene and we stated that we are available to support Gaelic sports of all codes. We support the two organisations that govern ladies’ football and camogie but those are the primary organisations charged with the responsibility. That may change and I sincerely hope it does.

An Cathaoirleach

I am afraid the Deputy is well over time.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I will make a brief observation. Could the FAI's publications include Gaeilge? It is important that there is Irish-language content going into schools and libraries. I ask that this suggestion be considered.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank the witnesses for all the work they do, not just in terms of the elite teams and athletes and the great successes but, more important, in all our communities.

Mr. Power stated that between 20% and 25% of the IRFU’s income comes from broadcasting and broadcasting rights. Roughly what proportion of the income of the other NGBs comes from broadcasting? Where do they see that going in the next five years? I will start with Mr. Power because he provided those statistics.

Mr. Padraig Power

The importance of broadcast revenue to us cannot be understated. As I said, it accounts for approximately 20% to 25% of our income. The future is challenging and we are here to talk about how the media landscape might look. We need to ensure we maintain those revenue streams. At the end of the day, it is about putting this money back into the game. What we are considering is the way the younger generation is now consuming media, particularly sport. There is a big change from watching for 80 minutes. They are doing it on multiscreens across a myriad of different platforms. We want to be part of the conversation and we are trying to keep that.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I am conscious of time. I refer to revenue projection. Obviously, the IRFU is seeing revenue expanding and relies on broadcasting for about 20% to 25% of its income. In five years’ time, what proportion of IRFU’s revenue does Mr. Power expect to be coming from the broadcast or digital space?

Mr. Padraig Power

That is a difficult question to answer. We are going to be part of the solution and part of the outcome as to how the new landscape will look. We will have to be agile and adapt and change as the landscape changes.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I ask the GAA and the FAI to answer.

Mr. Tom Ryan

We are probably at a point where some 22% of our revenue is garnered from broadcasting rights. On how that will change, I do not anticipate it will change much over the next four to five years, partly because those revenues are subject to contracts that are agreed and in place. The proportion will not change significantly because our overall revenue will not change significantly over that period either. The other sources of income we have are predominantly to do with gate receipts and so on. We took the decision this year, despite the inflationary environment, not to increase ticket prices. There is a finite audience for games and our revenues have plateaued in recent years. For this reason, I do not anticipate that proportion will change significantly.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I thank the Senator for the question. Our broadcast revenues are at similar levels, accounting for around 20% of our overall turnover. The majority of our broadcast revenues are driven by our senior men’s team. That is a centralised deal with UEFA, as noted in our background information. That deals runs through to 2028. Therefore, in the medium term, that percentage of our overall turnover, for which we have a strategic goal of reaching around €50 million, will stay at around the same level. However, we would like to see growth in League of Ireland revenues, potentially with LOITV. Any growth in those revenues would go, as per today, directly to the League of Ireland clubs.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

From a Government policy point of view, the witnesses will be aware that there are certain sports and games that are protected and must be broadcast free to air. Ms. O’Connor may wish to come in on this. Are there sports or games that should not be on that list or are there any that should be added? I ask Ms O’Connor to answer first, followed by the NGBs.

Ms Mary O'Connor

From our point of view as representative of 81 NGBs, the more sports, the better. I would be slow to remove any sport from that designated list. They all add value. What means everything to one person as a sport might not mean the same to somebody else. I am very conscious of that. It is important that we have as wide a spread of coverage of the different sports as possible to reflect the new and modern Ireland.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to stop Senator Byrne at this point, as I have to conclude this meeting at 2.40 p.m. and I want to make sure all our colleagues contribute. If witnesses want to respond to the Senator in their answers to another member, that is fine but I have to move on.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank the witnesses for being with us and for the valuable work they do in promoting sport, health and well-being in our country and abroad. My experience of the GAAGO model product has been primarily in my former role as Minister of State with responsibility for the diaspora. When it was first launched, GAAGO was hugely important in strengthening the presence of the GAA internationally and allowing people living abroad to access games they could never have accessed in the past. The GAA must be complimented on the work it does in promoting our national sports throughout the world. I was privileged to meet many committed and dedicated people who were deeply involved in the life of the GAA. My son played a hurling game in Philadelphia last Sunday and came away with a few bruises and scratches from it. For him, the GAAGO opportunity is hugely important in maintaining a connection with his community, parish and county at home. A great deal of positive and good work is being done.

Am I correct in assuming that the initial intention behind the development of the GAAGO model was to connect with our international community and allow it to access the viewing of games that it would not otherwise have access to? How has GAAGO morphed now into something that is seen to be a significant money-spinner for the GAA in terms of its annual income? Was that planned? Did it arise because of the pandemic? Those are my first questions for Mr. Kelly and I have a subsequent question after he responds.

Mr. Tom Ryan

The evolution, as the Deputy pointed out, is exactly right. The venture was initiated in, I think, 2014 with the specific purpose of addressing the audience in the diaspora. What changed is that during the Covid pandemic, people could clearly not go to games. We saw a demand for games and there was a responsibility on our part to be able to provide some means of diversion for people.

We tore up the broadcasting model. I mentioned in my submission that we do not see that every game can feasibly be broadcast or should be broadcast. We did this as best we could during Covid but clearly there is a capacity limitation on broadcasters. We did it through GAAGO. At that point we morphed, to use Deputy Cannon's phrase, it from being an overseas and international provider to providing on the domestic market. We learned a couple of things from this experience. We learned there is an audience for people to stream matches in their homes. This was not just for intercounty matches. It was also done by county committees for club games throughout the country. We also learned there was a market for it. We saw the flexibility that it afforded. With this in mind it gave us pause for thought as we embarked on the next set of negotiations and the next set of sales cycles. We had a look to see whether this model could possibly serve our interests in the broader scheme of things. The conclusion was that it would.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

How much of the income accruing from GAAGO can be attributed to viewing abroad and how much to viewing here in Ireland? Has this analysis been done?

Mr. Tom Ryan

I ask Deputy Cannon to forgive me as I do not have this analysis at my fingertips. The total income we earn from GAAGO in a year is approximately €4 million. The predominance of this is from GAA games. There are other small sources of income. Off the top of my head I do not know what the breakdown is between international and domestic. I am quite happy to venture that domestic is greater.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

In order to stream a match on GAAGO, a considerable amount of money must be expended on putting a technical team in place, including camera operators, technicians, directors and panellists. On the basis that this money is already being expended and significant income is already accruing from abroad in particular, through people viewing the matches and paying their subscriptions or pay-per-view, would it not make sense to broadcast the match outside the GAAGO platform to people who might not have access to the app or have the broadband connectivity necessary to be able to view it? It might eat into GAAGO subscriptions but has this analysis been done?

Mr. Tom Ryan

The difficult part for us is that 400 or 500 games are played in a year and perhaps 40 or 50 of them will generate some kind of a return. It is similar to what my colleagues in rugby have said. The imperative is to try to generate a reasonable return from those 40 or 50 matches so that it funds our Nicky Rackard and Christy Ring competitions. We have a responsibility to try to earn a decent and reasonable income by whatever means, whether it be through the turnstiles or through broadcasting for those games.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Has a lower annual subscription rate for those aged over 65 been considered?

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry but I must move on. Perhaps Mr. Ryan can come back to Deputy Cannon directly on this.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

I thank all of the witnesses for coming before the committee. We are trying to find solutions. Most of my questions will be for Mr. Ryan on GAAGO. It is a fantastic development and it is absolutely the way forward. It opens up opportunities to show new games to new audiences anywhere in the world. This is not an exercise to bash GAAGO or to say it is a bad idea. It is a response to a lot of heated public sentiment a number of weeks ago. Thankfully the heat has been taken out of it and it is not quite as topical now as it was then, when people could not watch some high-profile games. There was a lot of anger in our constituencies. People contact Deputies and Senators about all types of things. They contacted us about the fact that they could not watch a match. The witnesses might think it is mad but that is what happens. It is why we called this meeting. We are very much looking for solutions.

Mr. Ryan mentioned the date changed for one game, which was beyond his control, and that a fantastic match followed. Which fixture was that?

Mr. Tom Ryan

It was Clare and Limerick in the first round of the Munster senior hurling championship.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

That is one example and I remember it. Then we had Cork and Tipperary, which is the match that caused a lot of ire among my constituents. It was available on GAAGO. It was not available on any of the TV stations. I want to give an example of what was happening in case Mr. Ryan has not got feedback on what was happening. One person who got in touch with me explained how his father-in-law had to go to his house to watch the game. His father-in-law is in his 70s and did not know how to work the technology. He did not know how to put the game on live streaming. He did not particularly want his father-in-law over in his house on that particular day.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Who are you talking about?

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

It caused friction in the household. This is an example of what went on.

Another individual subscribed to GAAGO but the match started buffering. It kept buffering and it paused and he gave up. He missed out on the game. My father has a Nokia 3210 and an old dinosaur of a television. My parents could not stream it. Unfortunately they ended up missing out on the same Cork and Tipperary game. This is an example of what was going on. This is what we were responding to at the time.

We are looking for a solution to this. It is not perfect. GAAGO does open up opportunities and Mr. Ryan has said more games are being broadcast. We need to facilitate those people in areas where broadband is not good or adequate. Unfortunately we are not there yet. We have responsibility for this. We need to facilitate these people so we need to use all potential solutions, including stations such as TG4, RTÉ, Virgin Media, Sky or whatever it is.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I am not deaf to any of these issues. The feedback that Members of the Oireachtas were getting is the same as the feedback we were getting. The only thing I would like to try to communicate is that when there is a limitation in terms of capacity there are choices that have to be made. I completely understand the perspective of the gentleman who wanted to see a particular game in Deputy O'Sullivan's constituency. I can guarantee that in every other constituency around the country people would have had the same sentiment if that was the game that had been shown. GAAGO is showing more games than we were ever able to broadcast. We have more games free-to-air than we ever broadcast before. I want to repeat the little word of caution. It is not reasonable to think that we will get to a stage where every game will be shown. We are completely open to looking at solutions with scheduling-----

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Mr. Ryan.

Deputy Christopher O'Sullivan

Do you accept there are pockets of Ireland where GAAGO will not work until we have broadband?

Mr. Tom Ryan

I do-----

An Cathaoirleach

We have to move on.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome all of the witnesses. I will start with the GAA. Mr. Ryan is the director general. We have heard a lot about directors general in recent weeks in a different context. Will Mr. Ryan provide some insight into the decision-making process and the individuals who sign off on keeping certain games behind the pay wall and putting other games free-to-air?

Mr. Tom Ryan

This would be very useful. Games are played over a Saturday and Sunday. The central competitions control committee convenes on a Monday and looks at the results from Saturday and Sunday. It will then arrange the fixtures for the following weekend. Despite what some of the commentary might say, it is an independent group. I do not have any voice on it. It is independently constituted. It will set fixtures based on a number of criteria. There is the integrity of the competition and making sure there is the same turnaround for teams at the same stage. It looks at the venues that are available. Perhaps it might look at other events that are on in cities throughout the country. It will come up with a programme of games for the following weekend. These are typically on Saturday and Sunday.

In the normal course of events the traditional slot for games purchased by RTÉ is on Sunday. Depending on what package a particular broadcaster has bought and what rights it has, it will look at the games that are available to it, what games are within the package to which it has rights, and it will try to fit them into the slots it has available. At the top of the hierarchy is the game played on Sunday shown on RTÉ. GAAGO has typically looked at the Saturday fixtures.

By and large, if a game is on a Saturday, it will more than likely be on GAAGO. If it is on a Sunday, it is at RTÉ's discretion. It is not fair, and it has been characterised as such in the past a little, to say that RTÉ or the GAA pick which games to show. We do not pick games based on revenue. Contracts are signed at the start of the year, so we will earn the same revenue irrespective of what games are shown on what day or if a game is not shown at all.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I am sorry for interrupting. Mr. Ryan said that choices needed to be made and that the GAA continues to look for a reasonable return. However, GAAGO has taken over the Saturday market completely. Why is that the case?

Mr. Tom Ryan

Under the previous broadcasting arrangements, if the Deputy will forgive me mentioning it, Sky had 14 of the games towards the tail end of the championship in the Saturday slots. As indicated in our submission, that is the way we have tried to bundle the games and rights. They are in discrete packages-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

The concern of many fans is that prominent games, including the plum ties, such as the Limerick-Clare, the Kerry-Mayo and the Galway-Armagh games, have been put on Saturdays. Is there a conflict of interests between the GAA and RTÉ in trying to maximise subscriptions by putting these games on a Saturday?

Mr. Tom Ryan

No, there is not. I can understand that perception. I get it but it is a little unfair. In the championship as a whole, there are finals, semi-finals and quarter-finals in both codes, with the exception of two games. The games that are at the crunch end of both championships are on RTÉ and are free to air. The predominance, and a little of the challenge we might have-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

Sorry. We had an incident the week before last whereby six of the 11 games remaining in the football championships were behind a paywall.

Mr. Tom Ryan

That was two or three weeks ago. What the Deputy will see, as we progress through the championship-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

We were told that when we get to the latter stages of the championship, games will predominantly be free to air.

Mr. Tom Ryan

As they are. The two finals are free to air, the four semi-finals are free to air-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

The issue is-----

Mr. Tom Ryan

-----as are four of the six quarter finals.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has 30 seconds.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The issue previously was that Sky identified which games it would have. However, GAAGO has a different model. It does not identify the games. They are selected on the basis of whether they are prominent. We have evidence of them being put behind a paywall, which is causing huge frustration among the membership.

Mr. Tom Ryan

It is not-----

An Cathaoirleach

I am very sorry. I have to conclude and move on. I hope there will be an opportunity during the wrap-up to answer all these questions. Senator Ó Donnghaile is very welcome.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chathaoirleach agus na finnéithe. It is still not clear, either from Mr. Ryan's contribution or the report that was submitted, just what the methodology is for selecting games. As Deputy O'Sullivan suggested, we need to focus on solutions. In one of his responses to my colleague, Deputy Andrews, Mr. Ryan spoke about making sure the interests of the GAA are met. Given the concerns that many audience members and Gaels have raised, and that we are looking at the future of broadcasting, we need to reorient our thinking in reaching a solution.

Is it appropriate that audiences and Gaels in particular have to pay an additional charge on top of their licence fee to the same organisation because RTÉ is one of the owners of GAAGO? Just because there was a particular arrangement with Sky does not mean that approach or model has to be replicated in what is meant to be a new arrangement involving GAAGO and RTÉ. Would it not be better to organise a more fulsome approach for any future arrangements? I do not think anyone is suggesting that every game has to be broadcast on television. We all agree that GAAGO can be a very positive platform and outlet. The issue of concern is the paywall and how it is put in place for some matches and not for others. There are also the issues of accessibility and fairness.

It is not something I do very regularly, but I obviously pay my licence fee in the North. If I want to watch multiple courts during Wimbledon, for example, I can press a button and do that. If I am watching Glastonbury and want to watch multiple stages, I can do that. If I want to watch a particular game that BBC Northern Ireland has the rights for, I can press the red button and watch it free of charge or, rather, for the cost of the licence. Is that a model the GAA needs to look at in future? It is a model that is certainly beyond simply TV broadcasting but is far more accessible and reachable for viewers.

Mr. Tom Ryan

It may well be. I agree that we are here to look at the issue from a solutions perspective. I do not want to repeat myself unduly, but the landscape at the moment is we have a set suite of games and a suite of broadcasters that tender for them. There is a narrative that is a little unfortunate, which is the idea that we are migrating more and more towards pay-per-view and so on. In fact, the number and proportion of pay-per-view games we have now are less than they were under a previous guise. The number of free-to-air games is actually higher than it was under a previous guise.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

They are fairly significant games, however, that are behind a paywall.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I accept that. I do not want to get drawn into the issue of people paying for TV licences and so on. It is entirely reasonable, however, if people are paying to watch GAA games, that a certain amount of that income should devolve to the GAA. As regards debates about the television licence and so on, I have no expertise to offer in that particular sphere. I really do not.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

I have another range of questions that I will not get in on time. In the course of Mr. Hill's statement, he conflated the State with the nation a couple of times. He said that RTÉ has the right to broadcast international tournaments involving the senior men's team in Ireland, but that is not the case if people live in the part of Ireland where I live, or where Mark Sykes comes from, or the part of Ireland where James McClean comes from. Unfortunately, many of the international games are behind a paywall because Sky has the rights to show those games in that part of Ireland. In future, it is vital that the FAI considers that issue when negotiating the rights to broadcast games for both men and women, particularly international matches. My concern is we will go into the World Cup and people in that part of Ireland will not get to watch Ireland's ladies' soccer team because the games will be behind a paywall. Is it not crucial-----

An Cathaoirleach

Sorry, I ask the Senator to finish up.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

-----that when selling the broadcasting rights, the island of Ireland is treated as one broadcasting unit to ensure that we can all view the games universally via RTÉ?

An Cathaoirleach

I am so sorry, but the Senator has not left time for his questions to be answered. There are ten seconds left. There may be another opportunity at the end.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I can answer in ten seconds, if you like. There is a very simple answer. It is not the FAI that negotiates those rights. It is UEFA or FIFA as regards a tournament. FIFA negotiated the rights for the Women's World Cup directly with RTÉ. UEFA does the same for the men's senior team rights for qualification matches for either UEFA or FIFA qualifying tournaments.

Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile

That is something I would like to see changed.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

I am a sportsperson. I am also chairman of the Louth GAA county board. I am a GAA fan and a soccer fan. I am looking forward to the ladies doing well at the World Cup, to seeing the under-20s doing very well next Friday night and to watching the GAA matches at the weekend.

My question is mainly for Mr. Ryan. It is being asked by people on the ground and we have to listen to those people. At the end of the day, they are the people who go to the games and are our audience. I am being asked how these games are being selected. Are they being selected on a commercial basis or in the public interest? With reference to the cost of the games, €79 for a season pass is very good. However, €12 for a one-off game is very high. Many older people cannot afford it. We have a problem in the country with people giving out about the Internet and broadband; maybe that is something we can look at it in future.

It was said that one fifth of the GAA's revenue is coming from broadcast. People want to know how the money from GAAGO is distributed. Mr. McKenna outlined how money is distributed overall in the GAA. In fairness, there is player welfare, grants, ground rates - he covered everything. I believe he said €4 million was made from GAAGO. However, GAAGO should be more positive than negative. People are disappointed when some of the big games are not selected. It has been excellent, but these are the main things that people on the ground are asking me. What are the GAA's plans to rectify these problems?

Mr. Tom Ryan

There is lot in there. I noted the Deputy's statement that €12 is too high. We will look at our pricing again as we embark upon next season.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

Seventy nine euro is very good value. It is the €12 that is the issue.

Mr. Tom Ryan

The point about broadband, which a couple of the Deputy's colleagues raised, is also noted. I will not hide behind it being somebody else's responsibility. GAA clubs play a role in assisting with the roll-out of broadband. If there is a role we can play, we would like to play it.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

There was talk before about the possibility of using GAA grounds to facilitate the rolling out of broadband in areas having problems.

Mr. Tom Ryan

That is happening.

On the matter of how GAAGO income is distributed, the GAAGO income is reported and included in the GAA's accounts.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

It is in the one pot.

Mr. Tom Ryan

The proportions are exactly the same. The GAA earns its income from GAAGO in two ways. First, GAAGO pays a rights fee to the GAA, which is included in our commercial income. Second, the profits from GAAGO in a year, if there are any, are divided between the two partner entities and distributed accordingly. Therefore, the proportion of distribution is exactly the same as what is represented in our submission.

Deputy Peter Fitzpatrick

How are the games selected? A comment was made on this during the week. It was asked whether the decisions being made are on the basis of commercial considerations or public considerations. We have an opportunity to ask Mr. Ryan now.

Mr. Tom Ryan

They are overtly not commercial. The contracts are signed at the start of the year. Irrespective of whether county A is playing county B or county X is playing county Y, the GAA earns the same income. We have an obligation to show matches from a wide distribution of counties and codes. There would have been some discussion about a particular provincial competition that is very vibrant and fantastic. We know we have a responsibility to show as many games from this as we can but we also have a responsibility to show, for example, provincial finals in other provinces, which finals would be on at exactly the same time as matches in the province in question. We try to distribute with a view to being fair to all counties and both codes, and with a view to the importance of the games. In hindsight, maybe we might have looked at things a little differently. One of the great things that GAAGO gives us is a role in this regard. In previous years, we had no real hand, act nor part in how the process worked, but now we have. Therefore, if there are things we need to tweak a little, including on the basis of the members’ feedback today, we have the scope to do so.

An Cathaoirleach

We are way over time. I am aware that witnesses are not really getting the opportunity to respond in the way they would like, so they should feel free to respond directly to my colleagues following the meeting. I am sorry the time is so short.

We skipped Deputy Mattie McGrath because he was not in the room. He has four minutes. He can use them in whatever way he wants.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Several high-profile GAA games have been put behind the paywall and there was consternation. We had a long meeting about it here. As an Oireachtas member, I am very disappointed about this and also about cashless entrance to matches. I wrote to Mr. McKenna twice on behalf of elderly constituents who paid all their lives but who could not get anybody to book a ticket for them online, and I never even got an acknowledgement. Some were clergymen. It is just not acceptable. Hawk-Eye even broke down, so the representatives know how bad the broadband is. It is not their fault. In this regard, I accept that much of the responsibility lies with us here. It is disastrous. There are people texting people in America to know what is happening in a match because their own reception is frozen. It is awful. At the same time, the GAA seems to drive on regardless. It could not even keep Hawk-Eye functioning properly in Croke Park. It knows how bad the systems can be. This was ill-judged and ill-advised.

Not taking cash is an issue. An 82-year-old gentleman in my parish went to a club game in the next parish last Saturday night but was not allowed in and had to sit in the car. My God almighty, it is just despicable that the GAA would treat people like this. It was a joy to watch the man hurling in the past. I was a boy and he was a man. The matter was resolved only when a man who works with him arrived and paid for him by card. Money in your pocket feels like dirt. This beggars belief. It shows outrageous contempt from both RTÉ and the GAA for ordinary people who cut the grass, washed the jerseys, brought us all to matches, raised funds and did everything else. The most horrible aspect of all this is that the good people who stood at the gates for decades were all tarred with the same brush on the basis of the allegation that money was not being returned. We know where the money is going missing in this country. It is at corporate level and it is not because of people standing at gates in the rain and everything else. That is all I am asking about. I will give Mr. Ryan time-----

An Cathaoirleach

With regard to what Deputy Mattie McGrath said, it is important to give Mr. Ryan an opportunity to respond.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Yes, I am giving it. I understand the rules of engagement, so the Chair does not have to tell me that.

An Cathaoirleach

I am under serious time pressure. The Deputy was absent at the beginning.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I completely understand and respect the points Deputy Mattie McGrath is making. He mentioned driving on regardless. There is always a little bit of a contradiction. We want to progress, modernise and run the organisation as befits 2023, but we try our best to make sure that does not mean abandoning the values that the Deputy talks about. To explain, we have not taken cash at a turnstile at a GAA ground since 2013, so it is not a new development. We have other ways in which we want to accommodate the people the Deputy is talking about. Forgive me for saying so but over 300 Centra and SuperValu stores around the country sell tickets for cash. That is an extensive cash sales network. I do not believe there are many other organisations that would have this. We put in place a little arrangement to address the issue raised but we did not publicise it too much for reasons I hope people would understand. There was a little contingency arrangement in place over the course of the Allianz leagues. To be honest, if somebody shows up in the predicament the Deputy mentioned and cannot get into a game, we let him or her in. We are about what the Deputy is talking about.

As an interesting little aside, the total takings from the Allianz league in the last season were in the order of €2 million. Where counties were in the circumstances the Deputy mentioned and took a small bit of cash off people just to let them in, we asked that it be returned to us. The total amount involved was €15,000. As a proportion of the €2 million paid in total to get into games, €15,000 is not that big. However, I do not dismiss for a second what the Deputy is saying.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

But he is dismissing it. The man could not get in until somebody came around with a card to let him in.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I am sorry about that.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is appalling. I have to correct Mr. Ryan. He referred to 2015. I have paid cash into several matches in the past few years.

Mr. Tom Ryan

The GAA has not taken cash at a turnstile for an intercounty match since 2013.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Intercounty?

Mr. Tom Ryan

Yes.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am talking about club matches, not intercounty matches.

An Cathaoirleach

We are moving on. I call Deputy Munster, who has four minutes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

With four minutes for questions and answers, it is like a game of quickfire.

Mr. Ryan was asked earlier about whether the GAA approached other broadcasters when the Sky contract was finito. I believe he said it did. I think I remember Virgin Media saying it was never approached. Is that true?

Mr. Tom Ryan

That is not the version of events that we would have. I might defer to my colleague Mr. McKenna on that because he was directly involved in the process.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I ask him to be as brief as he can.

Mr. Peter McKenna

Virgin Media was contacted on several occasions.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Right. Were negotiations entered into?

Mr. Peter McKenna

Virgin Media preferred a ready-to-go option. It would not do the production required around games.

Deputy Imelda Munster

When GAAGO was first initiated, the CCPC had cleared its establishment. At the time, it did so on the basis that the organisation would be broadcasting outside Ireland. Since then, it has changed to broadcasting within the island of Ireland. Did the CCPC clear that change?

Mr. Tom Ryan

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

With the GAA and RTÉ. Have the representatives a record of that change?

Mr. Peter McKenna

We are currently in discussions with the CCPC. It has asked a number of questions about this. We were streaming all through the pandemic, as Mr. Ryan mentioned, as part of a response to the health issue. People could not congregate. We did not want them to congregate-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

So, is Mr. McKenna saying the GAA is in discussions with the CCPC and that there has not been clearance as yet?

Mr. Peter McKenna

Correct.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I thought that might be the case.

Could I have a figure for the number tuning in to GAAGO? How does it compare with RTÉ figures? Is there a breakdown of figures for both diaspora viewing and domestic viewing?

My colleague was asking Mr. Hill about the broadcasting rights and how people in the North are directly affected in this regard. He asked whether Mr. Hill would correspond with UEFA. Did he indicate that he would not?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I did not quite hear what was being asked. We would be very happy to talk to UEFA about the specific problem. Mr. Scanlon can explain that, in regard to League of Ireland television, we are completely open to broadcasting to the North as well. For UEFA, that is a technical contractual issue, but we would be very happy to talk to it on the committee’s behalf.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could Mr. Hill liaise with the committee here because it is understandably a bone of contention for people up north?

Mr. Tom Ryan

On audience numbers, the total audience number for GAAGO games so far this year is approximately 1.3 million. There are 42 games, and the range is quite pronounced. At the top end of things, we had an audience in excess of 120,000 for a couple of games. As we mentioned, part of the brief of GAAGO is to show games that might not be as marketable. At the other end of the spectrum, which is perhaps the majority of the games, we have games that would have, maybe 1,000 or 1,500 subscribers.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does Mr. Ryan have the comparison with RTÉ figures?

Mr. Peter McKenna

We would, but they would be very different.

Deputy Imelda Munster

How different?

Mr. Peter McKenna

That is because they are talking about viewership and they are in the hundreds of thousands. That is just the nature of it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That would be the free-to-access, obviously.

Mr. Peter McKenna

Yes. On the free-to-access, and to put some numbers on the record, more than 300 games were put out in total. That would have compared to 170 in the previous contract. That is an increase of nearly 80% in the number of matches that we have put out. Of that, only 50 are behind a paywall, which was less than what we had in the previous contract, which was 52.

Deputy Dillon is shaking his head but Eir used to carry behind a paywall all of the National Leagues that are now put on RTÉ and TG4, so the number of games that have gone on to free-to-air is actually less. Behind the paywall is at the 16-17% mark, whereas in the previous contract, it was up on over 30%, so we have moved away-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

On a point of clarification, did Mr. McKenna say the number of free-to-air games is actually far less?

Mr. Peter McKenna

Far more, but the number of games behind the paywall is less, and as a proportion is far less, and nearly half as many.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. McKenna; I am going to conclude on that. Senator Shane Cassells is next.

Senator Shane Cassells

Before the clock starts, we can see that we have a Dermot Gallagher in the chair. I do not have much chance with leverage and, therefore, I ask the witnesses for rapid responses to my questions.

I would like a quick comment on the statement made today by the Irish Bookmakers Association, as we are discussing the future of sports broadcasting. It has said that the new gambling Bill in Ireland, in the first instance, will possibly block English Premier League matches from being broadcast live here. From the point of view of the FAI and the IRFU in particular, have they reviewed this, and are there implications for the FAI and IRFU for events such as European football or United Rugby Championship, URC, matches as a result of the gambling Bill?

Mr. Jonathan Hill

I have not had a chance to review that at the moment. We would need to take some time to review the implications for ourselves.

Senator Shane Cassells

Have the implications not been discussed with UEFA? We have seen it in other things, particularly with the IRFU, where drinks bans have led to the Six Nations having to circumvent that.

Mr. Kevin Potts

We have not reviewed or discussed it and we are not aware of it, but of course we will.

Senator Shane Cassells

Mr. Hill's opening statement referred to the scenario of, in the first instance, working with the free-to-air games that the FAI has with RTÉ and Virgin Media, but then also exploring a second broadcast partner with the ability to show more live games. He said this would be a specialist, sports-focused broadcaster such as Sky Sports or Premier Sports. Has the FAI approached Sky with regard to looking at broadcasting with them? We have seen the deal where Northern Ireland Football League Premiership matches are broadcast live on Sky.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

Mr. Scanlon went to the market with an open tender process last year. We were in detailed discussions with Sky, which we obviously know well, because Sky Ireland is the main sponsorship partner of the women's national team. Those conversations went well. At the last moment, we did not progress, but I would be very hopeful that in moving forward, it will be at the table with regard to the League of Ireland. That reflects the progress that the League of Ireland is making at the moment, and the position-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Would that be for exclusive rights to the League of Ireland, or just a selection? Obviously, the FAI is working with two broadcast partners at the moment.

Mr. Jonathan Hill

The tender document was open with regard to allowing broadcasters to come back and give their view on how they would like to engage with us about being broadcast partners. We are open to a variety of models. They did not come and talk to us about exclusivity. As I said in the opening statement, an ideal scenario for us would be a mixture of a free-to-air partner and a paid partner, if we can have that.

Senator Shane Cassells

With regard to the GAAGO deal, I want to ask Mr. Ryan about the 22% income that the GAA derives from media partnerships. What percentage of that 22% does GAAGO comprise?

Mr. Tom Ryan

It is 10% to 15%.

Senator Shane Cassells

Is that 10% to 15% of the overall 22% that is coming from the GAAGO partnership? It is a very significant part of the income.

Mr. Tom Ryan

GAAGO income for this year will be approximately €4 million.

Senator Shane Cassells

How much income, roughly, is generated from the partnership with RTÉ in pounds, shillings and pence?

Mr. Tom Ryan

If the Senator does not mind, I would prefer not to say, as that is a third-party agreement. There may be certain sensitivities around it.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay. Mr. Ryan touched on the Sky Sports deal previously. The GAA is getting approximately €100,000. What was the difference between what the accounts would have shown for how much Sky brought in vis-à-vis what GAAGO is now bringing in?

Mr. Tom Ryan

The GAAGO income in the GAA's accounts, as I mentioned to one of the Senator's colleagues, comprises two elements. There is a rights fee and there is also a profit share. Clearly, under other previous arrangements, there was not a profit share. There was purely a rights fee. The rights fee that we earned for those particular matches with another broadcaster is within approximately 10% of what we are earning from GAAGO now. It is broadly similar.

Senator Shane Cassells

Is that 10% of the €4 million? Am I getting this right?

Mr. Tom Ryan

No, the two rights fees from the previous broadcaster and from GAAGO are within about 10% of each other.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Cassells is running out of time now; he might wrap up.

Senator Shane Cassells

Finally, we have seen what the FAI is doing for its partnerships, including a deal with RTÉ and Virgin Media for its domestic league. We have seen the IRFU use RTÉ and Virgin Media for the Six Nations. Is there a scenario where the GAA would entertain doing a deal between RTÉ and Virgin Media simultaneously for GAA matches?

Mr. Tom Ryan

Our rights are concluded for the next four or five years so we are not going to be changing those in the short term. As Mr. McKenna mentioned to one of the Senator's colleagues, we talked to all broadcasters, and we will when the time comes again. The more competition we have, it is in our interest.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Ryan. Deputy Brendan Griffin is next.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank the Chair. Four minutes is not a huge amount; it is like the average injury time at the end of a game. I will not be able to ask all of the questions I would like to ask, so if the witnesses do not mind, I will start with Ms O'Connor. I welcome her again. I have one quick question. I recall watching "Sports Stadium" as a kid. I loved it. It was a great format. Has FIS entered into any discussions with the broadcasters on the possibility of doing that? I think it is an excellent idea.

Ms Mary O'Connor

What we have done is taken on a new partner in this space. We want to explore it. We think there is a huge appetite among our members, who are niche and emerging. As I said already, we have world champions and European champions. They want to show their sports to a larger audience. There is a way of doing it, and we think there is credibility in it, but we are at the very start of that process.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is a good idea. There is great merit in it and there was massive success previously. It is one that there would be a lot of support for across the board.

Ms Mary O'Connor

We would be doing the next generation of kids in this country a real service if we did that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Exactly. It is about inspiring future generations and that brings me back to Mr. Ryan. Many children around the country did not see that outstanding pass by David Clifford into Tony Brosnan for Kerry's second goal against Tyrone. It was one of the most incredible pieces of skill I have ever seen on the field of play, yet many children did not see it. I have been asked by a councillor in County Kerry to clarify this. Could Mr. Ryan give us the viewership figures for Kerry versus Tyrone in 2021, which was an All-Ireland Senior Football Championship semi-final shown on free-to-air, and Kerry versus Tyrone in 2023, which was an All-Ireland Senior Football Championship quarter-final shown on GAAGO?

As a Kerryman, we are the reigning All-Ireland senior football champions, and we have, in David Clifford, arguably the most inspirational player of all time, yet Kerry have been on the television once out of six matches in this year's championship. That was against Clare in the Munster Senior Football Championship final. It was not a very memorable game. It was quite one-sided, and not a great game. The Tyrone game was on GAAGO. We had games against Tipperary, Cork and Mayo that were not shown, and Louth was not shown on television at all. Surely there needs to be a review of this with regard to having county quotas, but particularly where one is talking about the reigning All-Ireland senior football champions?

I know a man in Kerry who is 89 years of age. His health has failed in the last number of years and he cannot go to games anymore. He never missed an all-Ireland final that Kerry was in from the time he was 18 up until he was around 80 and yet he has only seen Kerry on the television in the championship once this year. Surely that needs to be examined in terms of county quotas and the number of times teams are shown.

Mr. Tom Ryan

We do not operate a county quota at the moment. As I mentioned to a couple of the Deputy's colleagues, we try to look at that thing from an overall fairness perspective with regard to geography, the state of the competition and the codes. That can throw up certain anomalies - I completely accept that - but we do not operate county quotas. I am not really sure how practical that might be. I am hearing the feedback from the committee about what games should be selected for where. It is obviously a topic people are animated about and we will learn from that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

If you were to get to the fifth game in the championship and the team has only been on free-to-air television once at that stage, surely that should be ruled out in the same way that certain pairings cannot happen in the draws.

Mr. Tom Ryan

Not to be simplistic about it but for each game there are two teams playing so it may well be the case that the imperative around the other team is different and they have been on a lot. I do not want to labour the point but it is complicated-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Where there is a will, there is a way.

Mr. Tom Ryan

A lot goes into that mix.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I will tell you-----

Mr. Tom Ryan

I hear the feedback from the committee and we will bear it in mind.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am providing feedback from the ground in Kerry. People are furious about it and really upset. These are people who built up the organisation over the years through driving kids to training and matches, umpiring and doing all that stuff. They feel they are being short-changed, particularly older people. It is something that has to be re-examined.

Mr. Tom Ryan

Can I answer that?

An Cathaoirleach

Very quickly.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I will answer as quickly as I can. That pass by David Clifford was an exceptional piece of skill. The children the Deputy is talking about will see that for free on GAA Now and it was up there on the day of the game. On the audience members, I am sorry but I do not have the preceding year's numbers to hand. The game I referenced as being towards the top end of the scale on GAAGO when talking to Deputy Munster a few minutes ago was the Kerry-Tyrone game. There were 120,000 people viewing that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was that subscriptions or is that factoring in-----

Mr. Tom Ryan

That is viewers.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There might be 2.5 viewers per subscription.

Mr. Tom Ryan

I am sorry I do not have the preceding year's figures but I would be happy to furnish the Deputy with those.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

If Mr. Ryan could get me a break down of how the GAA comes to the viewer figures-----

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy needs to wrap up.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am sure there is a formula whereby the 60,000 subscriptions are multiplied by two, 2.5 or three. Mr. Ryan might be able to provide that for me.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

First, I would put on the record that I am a sports fan. My young lad is involved with Longford rugby club. I support Longford town and I am involved in my own club. I have been a lifelong GAA member and am a former member of the Ard Chomhairle in Croke Park. I just wanted to put that on the record.

I recognise all the good work that has been done by every organisation present in communities throughout the country. I will go to Ms O'Connor first. Her proposal for something like "Sports Stadium" is a fantastic idea. That is something that should be looked at. She also spoke about the 20x20 campaign. That needs to be reinvigorated. It worked but we still have a little bit further to go so I would like to see some work done on that. The Government funding proposal with regard to what happened in Australia is a good idea too. It is important to get all those other minority sports and get a bit of exposure for them.

I am personally fully in favour of GAAGO. I think it is value for money and I think it is the future. A higher number of games are able to be watched and there are fewer games that cost money for people. It is €79 for a season pass for GAAGO whereas if someone purchased Sky Sports the previous season to watch fewer games they would have paid €480. That is the reality. Those are the facts.

A comment was made about the organisation of the games. I am speaking from experience. The competitions control committee, CCC, which is a separate committee, is the organisation that makes the fixtures and then you work around it. I have had queries about this weekend and the Tailteann Cup being fixed with the Dublin game but there are reasons around why that has happened and stuff like that. We try to accommodate all the counties if at all possible. The biggest issue we have is probably with broadband. That is what is causing most of the trouble but that is being worked on and will be delivered. Luckily enough we have the broadband contract in place.

GAA is a 32-county sport and more. It includes Lancashire and Warwickshire when it comes to hurling. It includes London, New York and our diaspora. It is not just about a select few counties at the higher echelons of the game. That is what caused all the commotion the last time, particularly when the Cork-Tipperary game was so tight. It was a great game. I was watching it. The GAA is about all counties and it is incumbent on the GAA to put on Longford or Antrim, and that is what it is doing. The weekend of that Cork-Tipperary game, the hurling game above in Antrim was being shown. They are entitled to have their game shown. Deputy Fitzpatrick is involved heavily with Louth football. It is important that every county has its day and gets the opportunity. I got to watch games I could not go to with Longford playing in the Tailteann Cup on GAAGO.

I was always a firm supporter of a secondary competition. We have condensed our season. I ask the witnesses to expand on that for people here who might not understand how we have condensed our season. It is to allow our club players to play in July and August and have the Tailteann Cup to allow the perceived or so-called weaker counties an opportunity to win an all-Ireland title in Croke Park. Look at Westmeath's victory last year and the joy that brought them. I wish the best of luck to Senator Cassells this weekend with Meath playing. Mr. Ryan might expand on how the thing has changed over the last number of years and why we have so many games on.

Mr. Tom Ryan

Very briefly, the all-Ireland finals people would be familiar with used to be on the first and third weekends of September. They are now in July. That is to free up the latter part of the year for club activities. That has a concertina effect and means more and more games are played in the first half of the year. As well as that, we have changed the competition structure such that the senior football is now played on a round-robin basis. We have more games than ever before in a shorter time period than ever before. That is relevant to broadcasting because it makes it harder to show everything people want to see. There was one weekend at the start of June, if I recall correctly, where for the first time ever every one of the counties was playing. That had never happened before. That illustrates how we, no matter how many partners we have, could not physically show every game that was on. They were championship matches people would have wanted to see. I do not know whether that was a quirk of things or if it may well happen again next year. I am a real advocate of the way the season has been reshaped but one of the consequences is that it causes pressure from a broadcasting point of view.

An Cathaoirleach

I am going to have to move on. We have come to the end of the meeting but I appreciate that Deputy Gould has sat here for the last hour and a half so I am going to give him two minutes. I see Deputy Danny Healy-Rae coming in as well and he had his name down too. I will forego my own time but I would make one comment. I recently had the pleasure of meeting the Continental Youth Championships board in the city of Dublin outside San Francisco. We met with Eamon McCusker and Mark Gorman. Most of the conversation has been around GAAGO live. I really did not appreciate the impact that has on our diaspora. When we met with them they spoke so passionately about that cultural connection and being able to see and connect with home again. I really did not appreciate the impact that is having on lives beyond our own little island. It is great to see. I would just give that one compliment. I will give two minutes to Deputy Gould and two minutes to Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I appreciate that. I know time is constrained. I will make my comments and the witnesses might have a chance to speak to me afterwards. On rugby, first I want to wish the lads and everyone involved the best of luck on Friday. To be honest, the sport has been a great source of pride to us as a 32-county sport. It is brilliant to bring everyone together so they should be congratulated on that. There are two points I would make. In some of the areas and some of the schools I represent, no one plays rugby. More should be done to promote the game in non-traditional areas.

Regarding the FAI, first I want to wish the ladies the very best of luck in Australia. There is a lady on the team called Denise O'Sullivan from my own area of Knocknaheeny in Cork. We are very proud of her. We are very proud of all of them. I have seen soccer grow. Soccer now is not the same as it was 20 or 30 years ago. The FAI should be congratulated on its success but I would like to see more investment in facilities. A lot of soccer grounds need to be brought up to standard.

I am a lifelong member of the GAA. I only stepped down as chairman of my club last year, after ten years, but I am still involved. I have been 37 years on the committee and 47 years involved in the club. Let us be honest. Whether people understand it or not, hurling is a minority sport. In his opening statement Mr. Ryan spoke about encouraging people. If the GAA is not going to have the top hurling games on the television how are we expected to compete? Whether the GAA understands that or not, soccer is after taking over in working-class areas and rugby is after taking over in the more affluent areas. The GAA's base is not what it used to be. I do not know if people in Croke Park understand that but I know this for a fact because I am coaching teams on the ground and I have been for years.

I have serious concerns about hurling. Every serious hurling match should be shown live.

I will finish on this. Ms O'Connor mentioned the 20x20 campaign. There is the usual thing with the GAA when it comes to equality. The girls are out now looking for equality-----

An Cathaoirleach

That is it. I have to move on.

Deputy Thomas Gould

Last week, Denise Gaule was given a digital radio for being player of the match. It was shocking. Why did she not get the same as her male counterpart?

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy has had three minutes. Please conclude.

Deputy Thomas Gould

I thank the Chair

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae has two minutes.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I am glad to get the opportunity. There has been a lot of focus on RTÉ in recent weeks. There has been a focus on RTÉ for a different reason in Kerry for practically all of this year. There is an issue for genuine supporters. Some are elderly and there maybe others who have problems for other reasons. Many parts of Kerry do not have broadband and people cannot access GAAGO. The witnesses are saying that RTÉ cannot put out all the games but the GAA is responsible for that part of it. It has the season condensed and all the big games are to be played out in four or five weeks. It is not fair on the supporters that traditionally supported the GAA over the years and who, like Deputy Gould said, looked forward to seeing the big games. Kerry was short changed this year as far as RTÉ is concerned because only one of its games could be seen on the channel. The rest were only if you could get GAAGO. We do not have the broadband and people are not able to use the technology. I am asking the GAA to look at this again. This year is practically gone. We hope that Kerry will survive the challenges it is facing, the first of which will be next Sunday. I hope it goes further after that. This cannot be allowed to happen for our major games next year. There are young fellows who are training all the year and they cannot be seen by a certain cohort and the people who have supported them over the years and who look forward to see the Cliffords and so on playing. They have not seen them except perhaps later in the evening when highlights of games are shown. That is not good enough.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Healy-Rae to conclude.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

They pay all their taxes and they pay their TV licence fees without question. It is not good enough that they cannot see GAA matches, especially the top ones, at different times during the year.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to stop the Deputy there.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes this part of the meeting. I am sorry that it has been so short with so many guests but that is what happens when we have so many people and so little time. I thank the witnesses for their statements and my colleagues for being so good at keeping to time or thereabouts. We will go into private session to dispose of some committee business.

The joint committee went into private session at 3.03 p.m and resumed in public session at 3.10 p.m.