Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 13 Sep 2023

Transparency of RTÉ Expenditure of Public Funds and Governance Issues: RTÉ (Resumed)

An Cathaoirleach

We have received apologies from Deputies Andrews, Fitzpatrick and Christopher O'Sullivan and Senator Warfield. Senator Sherlock will be substituting for Senator Hoey. We have also received apologies from Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Today the committee is meeting with members of the RTÉ board who are very welcome. Some members of the board, in particular Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, the chair, Mr. Robert Shortt, Ms Anne O'Leary and a few others have been here before. We are delighted to have them all with us and I thank them and members of the executive for taking the time to be with us today. It is also our first opportunity to hear from the new director general, Mr. Kevin Bakhurst.

The purpose of today's meeting is to meet with members of the board and the interim leadership team to resume our discussions on the transparency of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance issues following the statement issued by the RTÉ board on 22 June. At the outset of the meeting, I wish to explain some limitations regarding parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references made by witnesses to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. However, a number of the witnesses are giving evidence remotely from outside the parliamentary precincts, and both gentlemen are very welcome. As such they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses physically present do. Such witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Those giving evidence from other jurisdictions should also be mindful of their domestic law and how it may apply to the evidence they give.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise, or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend where he or she is not adhering to that constitutional requirement. Any members who attempt to attend from outside the parliamentary precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

I emphasise to members and witnesses alike that it is imperative that today's meeting is conducted in a fair and respectful manner at all times. It is important, in the interests of natural justice, that members and witnesses act responsibly in relation to utterances concerning those present today and those who are not present. I will intervene in any exchanges where I deem this is not the case.

I will move on to the agenda of today's meeting, namely, the examination of the transparency of RTÉ's expenditure of public funds and governance. I welcome everyone to committee room 3. We have quite a few witnesses with us today. I welcome Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh, chair of the board; Ms Anne O'Leary, board member and chair of the audit and risk committee; Mr. Robert Shortt, member of the audit and risk committee and board staff representative; Mr. Ian Kehoe, board member and deputy chair; Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, director general; Dr. PJ Mathews, board member; Mr. David Harvey, board member; Mr. Jonathan Ruane, board member; Ms Eimear Cusack, director of human resources; Mr. Mike Fives, group financial controller; Mr. Adrian Lynch, director of audiences, channels and marketing and acting deputy director general, who is no stranger to these committee rooms; and Ms Paula Mullooly, director of legal affairs. I thank them for making the time to be with us today.

We are also joined on Microsoft Teams by board members Mr. Conor Murphy and Mr. Daire Hickey. We have received apologies from board member Ms Susan Ahern. That is the housekeeping out of the way.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite witnesses to deliver their opening statements. There are two opening statements which are limited to five minutes each. As the witnesses will be aware, the committee will publish the opening statements and supporting documentation received on its webpage. The opening statements will be followed by questions from my colleagues on the committee. I also propose that we include a short comfort break at 3 p.m., midway through our session. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I invite Ms Ní Raghallaigh to make her opening remarks.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Gabhaim buíochas leis na Teachtaí Dála agus na Seanadoirí as ucht an deis teacht chun labhairt leo arís anseo inniu.

I trust the committee will have had the time to examine the extensive documentation furnished to it in recent days by RTÉ. The board and interim leadership team will endeavour to answer the committee's questions to the best of our ability. The last number of months have been unseemly and highly damaging for RTÉ. The two Grant Thornton reports commissioned by RTÉ and the Government-commissioned interim Mazars report paint their own pictures. Public trust has been eroded.

Níl amhras ar bith ach gur theip ar RTÉ bundualgais reachtúla a chomhlíonadh le tamall gearr de bhlianta. Tuigeann bord RTÉ é seo agus tacaíonn sé le grinnscrúdú ar gach gné den phróiseas rialála. Tá sé tiomanta d’athruithe ón bhun aníos a chur i gcrích.

The board has put in place a wide-reaching series of changes in light of the serious failures highlighted earlier this summer. This is ongoing work and as further reports and examinations are complete, the board is committed to reviewing and implementing the necessary changes required to build confidence and to ensure good governance and best practice are at the heart of how RTÉ carries out its business both at board level and operationally.

RTÉ is engaging thoroughly with both Government-appointed expert committees on governance, culture and human resources. The organisation is also working with Mazars so that it can bring its final report to the Department. The third Grant Thornton report into Toy Show The Musical is under way, while law firm McCann Fitzgerald is examining the matter of voluntary redundancies. Both reports have been commissioned by RTÉ and will be published as soon as possible. These are key elements in rigorously addressing the issues of the past and rebuilding our bond of trust with this committee, with the staff in RTÉ and the public. However, as we deal with the past we must also look to the future. In doing so, it is imperative that we engage with this committee about the sort of public service broadcaster this country wants and we need to talk about how, as a public service organisation, this will be funded.

A secure future for RTÉ is by no means guaranteed. This is currently an organisation under immense pressure across a number of fronts. Critically, the erosion of trust has helped create immediate financial pressures. This needs to be resolved as a matter of urgency and is a matter of immediate focus for the board and the interim leadership team. A secure future for RTÉ means having purpose and direction and making choices and taking decisions. The director general and his team will soon complete a strategic review of the organisation. I expect that the review would then shape what will be a costed restructuring plan. As part of that, hard decisions must be made in order to achieve a fit for purpose public service broadcaster. These decisions may not be popular with stakeholders and policymakers, including perhaps this committee. If we are to safeguard the future of RTÉ however, we need to work together. We need to make those difficult choices together. As part of an overall reform plan, choices must be made in relation to interim funding and the long-awaited licence fee reform. The current system is a legacy of a different era; obsolete, redundant and antiquated.

As RTÉ is a public service body, both the strategic review and significant elements of the restructuring plan would have to be approved by Government. Only in this way can RTÉ be empowered to make the decisions necessary to secure the future of the organisation and allow us to move forward with shared purpose. If so empowered, we will undertake the necessary steps to achieve our shared vision for RTÉ. We are but custodians of the organisation. Our central role, as I see it, is to secure this vital national institution for the future so that it will prevail and prosper for many years to come. I hope that, working together, we can achieve this. Ní neart go cur le chéile.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the Chair, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to be here today. I appreciate that this is a special sitting of the committee ahead of the formal beginning of the new Dáil session, which speaks to the committee's commitment to the importance of the future of public service media in Ireland.

As I said when we were last here, the serious lapses in standards that were uncovered in RTÉ precipitated the most devastating blows to the reputation of the organisation in its almost 100-year history. I assure members again that since I took office in July, both I and the new leadership team, working with staff across the organisation, have been working to do all that we can to begin the urgent reforms required to restore trust and confidence in RTÉ. I can say with certainty that the lapses that were uncovered are not reflective of the overall standards of governance and integrity within the organisation. Staff in RTÉ are capable, diligent and highly skilled. While a range of significant governance gaps have been identified, which we are committed to addressing, there remains a vital sense of public service purpose within RTÉ. I am confident that sense of shared purpose will help drive the changes we must make.

By way of assurance of how resolved I am to drive change, I can share with members some of the reforms that are already in hand. I have now been in the job for just over eight weeks. During that period, I have moved decisively and quickly to address some of the clear procedural and oversight failings within the organisation. First, on decision-making, as members know, I have appointed a new interim leadership team. Key decisions now come to that full leadership team, not least decisions regarding top presenter contracts. On transparency, we are operating with full transparency to the board and we have issued the scoping documents for a new register of commercial interests and a register of external activities, both of which will be key to maintaining standards of impartiality. For our people, we have issued the first of our staff surveys and a new staff consultation body will be set up later this month. On finances, we are managing them carefully and working to cut costs in the face of steeply declining revenue from the TV licence.

We are committed to the many reviews in place. In addition to the review of the voluntary exit packages, the leadership team and colleagues from across RTÉ have been working tirelessly, as Ms Ní Raghallaigh said, to provide extensive documents to the committees, the Department and NewERA, Mazars and the two expert committees reviewing RTÉ.

I am determined that the organisation will be transformed so the public, Government and our partners can have full confidence in RTÉ and its management. Crucially, I can confirm that RTÉ hopes to provide an outline framework for strategic reform in October, with a commitment to delivering a full strategic reform and transformation plan by the end of the year. I caution, however, that all of these reforms will be undermined if the question mark over the funding of public service media in this country is not properly resolved. The TV licence system, its supporting legislation and the associated collection methods are clearly no longer fit to support the provision of public service media to the people of Ireland. The current crisis has made the problem even more acute and jeopardises the future of public media and RTÉ and the viability of Ireland’s audiovisual sector.

As I alluded to earlier, in parallel with the creation of a more rigorous governance framework, we are working on a new transformation strategy for RTÉ. It will require real and radical change if we are to continue to deliver great public service content to all audiences. RTÉ must reflect the whole of Ireland better, to all audiences, on the devices and platforms they choose to use. While we are working at speed, we need to get this right. We have a responsibility to audiences, the Oireachtas and the hardworking and talented staff at RTÉ to build a trusted public service media organisation that can sit at the heart of Irish life for years to come. We must rebuild an RTÉ that is trusted and enjoyed, one that is relevant and loved and one that brings the country together for important national moments and events. Public service content, value for money and trust will be at the heart of a transformed RTÉ.

This is a critical moment for public service media in this country. From the original radio broadcast in 1926 to now, RTÉ has been working to give a voice to Ireland to share our nationhood and bring the moments and issues that matter to the country. We have a choice - we can work together to reform and reshape RTÉ for the next 100 years or we can accept its failure and demise. The latter is something that I, and I believe this committee, cannot accept.

The recent launch of the new season on RTÉ had many highlights. We announced over 30 hours of brand-new Irish drama, as well as a range of content examining the climate crisis. We announced 126 hours of new children's content. We confirmed that RTÉ will deliver the widest range of free-to-air sports, including the Rugby World Cup, UEFA Nations League and the AIB all-Ireland club championships.

The new season demonstrated that, 100 years on, RTÉ remains firmly focused on our core purpose of delivering a broad range of unique Irish content that serves the Irish public.

As we work to bring this dark chapter to a conclusion, I very much hope that RTÉ and the Houses of the Oireachtas can work together to restore faith in one of Ireland’s most important national institutions.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Bakhurst. I will now turn to my colleagues and remind them that they have ten minutes each. I ask again that we do this in a fair and respectful manner. Colleagues can do this whatever way they want. They can use their ten minutes for a statement or an over-and-back. I ask them to stick to the ten minutes so that we can get around to everybody in the room. We will begin with Senator Micheál Carrigy.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

The witnesses are all very welcome. I welcome Mr. Bakhurst in particular, and I wish him well in his new role. It is out there in the media that RTÉ will be looking to the Government, and ultimately the taxpayer, for in the region of €50 million to plug a shortfall in the organisation. A significant amount of that has been caused by errors made within the organisation that have resulted in a reduction in income from the television licence fee. I want to know, on behalf of the taxpayer, what RTÉ has put in place already regarding cost-cutting measures. Both Mr. Bakhurst and Ms Ní Raghallaigh have suggested that the television licence needs to be overhauled, and that is going to save the day. We have other media organisations in the country that are able to put out content, and run an organisation and a number of channels, without the significant €100 million plus that RTÉ gets from the Government. In any business, one cuts one's cloth to measure.

I want to know what cost-cutting measures have been put in place over the last two months. This is in light of the restoration of 10% pay cuts over the last eight weeks. In the last 48 hours, we have heard of a contract for €240,000 over three years to take pictures on a soap. I have asked my assistant to take a picture of me speaking here, and I will show it to the witnesses in about two minutes' time. It will not cost anything to do that. For RTÉ to be paying someone €240,000 is quite ridiculous. It makes me ask the following question. Does RTÉ actually realise what cost-cutting measures are?

Has RTÉ looked at the site in Montrose? A number of months ago my colleague, Deputy Brendan Griffin, asked a question about the value of the site in Montrose. Has a valuation been put on the site, and is consideration being given to use that site to alleviate the shortfall for this year and the coming years, and to look at relocation? The witnesses might answer those questions first.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will begin, and Ms Ní Raghallaigh might like to come in. There are a number of significant questions there, and I will deal with a couple of the financial ones first. On the question of the photographer and the money, I have asked that question. I want to know more about that, and I want to know exactly what the deal is. I cannot believe that, on the face of it, it is as published. I want to know what all the details of that are. I am dealing with it. When I have the details, I will be happy to come back to the committee and let members know exactly what it is for. I cannot believe it is just for the work as described in one line. I will come back to members on that, if that is all right.

On the wider question, as I have said, I have been there eight weeks, and we have spent a great deal of time trying to address the emergency of the governance arrangements at RTÉ. That has involved a change in the leadership team. There is a whole list of governance changes I can run through that the committee will, I hope, be fully aware of. At the same time, we are facing into this financial crisis. It is fair to call it that. We have been considering exactly which options we have to stop spending cash this year, and to reduce the head count in the short term. In fact, we announced earlier today that to start, there is a freeze on recruitment at RTÉ for the rest of the year until we have more visibility of our finances. We are also going to stop spending cash on anything that we have discretion on at the moment. That is fairly wide-ranging, and it has a significant impact on the current and future organisation. Some of that is about spending on things like outside broadcasts of events.

Some of that is about investment in our digital products, including the RTÉ Player, which we can stop for now. It is not my ambition at all because the digital future of RTÉ is critical. Those are the sorts of tough decisions that we are having to take at the moment. It is fair to say that in the short term, there are limited levers I can pull. I am pulling every lever I can to try to preserve cash because it is my duty and the duty of the board to make sure that we as an organisation do not run out of money. These are tough decisions but we are taking them as a leadership team.

On the site in Montrose, I said in the first week I was here that all options were on the table. All options are on the table as far as the site in Montrose goes, which includes full sale of the site, partial sale of the site or doing nothing. I do not think that doing nothing is an option, so that is not really on the table. What are the options for the full sale of the site and what is the price tag for doing that?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Has RTÉ had a valuation done on it? A colleague of mine asked that question a number of months ago.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We asked for a valuation and that is under way at the moment. There are some issues regarding sale of the whole site, namely that a number of the buildings on the site have been listed in the last few years. That would have had an impact on the overall value of the site. We are getting it valued at the moment. I hope to have that within the next couple of weeks.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Some 8.6 acres were sold in 2017 for €107 million. Based on that, that site is worth about €500 million in today's terms.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I suspect that is probably not right because of the listed buildings. There is only one listed building on the part of the land that we sold. There are five and the mast on the current site. There are some negatives about selling the site. I think that overall land value has gone down since we sold that site a number of years ago. Frankly, I think some of the planning issues that the company which bought the site has had would have had an impact on the value. I cannot speak to that until I get a professional valuation. These are the factors that will be looked at.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I do not think land values have gone down. They have actually increased since 2017.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Okay.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

That is going by the market. Would Mr. Bakhurst consider again cutting the 10% cuts that were restored? The public are not happy.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The 10% cuts to whom?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Some of the executive board. It was restored in the last couple of weeks and the Minister was not informed of it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have been looking at that. Clearly, that has been in question. To be fair to those executives, and I think we should be fair, they volunteered to take a pay cut for two years on the basis that they hoped there would be a pay cut across the organisation. While that did not transpire, they still took that pay cut for two years. I have no doubt that the Minister should have been aware when it was restored and I do not understand why that did not happen. I have been talking to the executives. We currently have a mixed team on the interim leadership team and I am working to, in due course, appoint a permanent leadership team, although with my recruitment freeze, that will not be straightforward over the next couple of months.

When I do that, I want to benchmark what all the executives earn. I have done quick benchmarking with other partners around Europe and the European Broadcasting Union on what executives and chief executives in those broadcasters earn. We need to make sure that we are paying fairly. It is critical to me, in delivering the radical change that I am planning, that I have a talented team around me to help me to deliver that. I already know from my own case, and I think I have said this before, that we are not that competitive with some of these salaries. I know that is a hard thing to say for people because it looks like a lot of money to most ordinary people. We have to look at it in the context of competing for top talent. I want to be realistic and I will be transparent in that process. When I do that benchmarking, I will come back and publish the salaries of the leadership team going forward, so everyone will know what they are earning every year and can ask those questions in due course.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I have a straight question for Ms Ní Raghallaigh. Is she the right person to continue as chair? Earlier in the summer, we found out in this room that the Minister was not notified that Ms Ní Raghallaigh had asked Dee Forbes to resign. We found out in recent times that the Minister was not informed of those pay restorations either. The Minister, in her role, is the lead person on behalf of the taxpayer. To find out that this drip-feed of information is continuing and that the Minister is not being informed of all these changes is not acceptable. At Ms Ní Raghallaigh's first experience, when we discussed the Grant Thornton issue with regard to Ryan Tubridy's earnings from 2017 to 2019, she stated: "Why this figure was understated, and by whom, is a question we as a board are also very anxious to know the answer to."

The Grant Thornton report is complete. I would like to answers to those questions: why and by whom?

The same report stated that the auditor's reports were not passed to the audit and risk committee. Why was that? Before that report, there was an internal review, pre-2020 to 2022, regarding the payments to Ryan Tubridy. The 2017 to 2019 correction arose from that and resulted in the Grant Thornton report. Why has that internal review never been provided to the committee? The committee was previously told that the understatement was "a mistake and an error". That is on the record. However, the report suggests there was no error or mistake but a deliberate attempt to mislead the Government, the Oireachtas and, ultimately, the people we represent. What is Ms Ní Raghallaigh's position now on this mistake or error?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

There are several questions. I will try to answer as many as possible. Whether I am the right person for the chair or not is a decision for the Minister. I can only speak for when I when I have been there, which is since late November. The board and I have made a lot of changes. What we brought forward was because what was discovered in the audit and from the action we took immediately on that, we discovered some of the information we have been trawling over. That is a matter for the Minister.

On what the Senator said about the 2017 to 2019 correction, I want to be clear. That statement stated that these numbers were reported incorrectly, publicly and to the Oireachtas, and we corrected them. We knew they were incorrect; we did not know why. That is why the Grant Thornton report, which is a factual report, was commissioned. As with any gathering of facts, there is a dependency on the co-operation of key people. If all of those people are not taking part, there is a chance there will be an inconclusive answer.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

We need answers.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I know but I cannot force people to the table. I want the answer too. I want to know what happened. What we do know is that the publishing of the information was the correct thing to do in the board's opinion. If the board had not published the 2017 to 2019 correction, there would have been different types of questions asked, and we would have been accused of withholding information and not correcting the public record. We knew for sure that the public record was incorrect, and that was the important thing to correct. We did not know why, which is why the factual report was commissioned. As I said, it is an independent report. We rely on that for the findings we have gotten from that.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Senator Carrigy have a final comment to wrap up or is he happy?

Senator Micheál Carrigy

No, because we still do not have answers. In the past number of months, we have had numerous meetings in numerous committees and it still seems like we are pulling teeth to get answers. We are paying a large amount of for reports but we are still not getting the full answer. If we do not get the full answers, the trust of the public, which is not there at the minute, will continue as it is. That will lead to licence fees not being paid, which means that the taxpayer will have to pay more money. Those are the facts.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Munster who has ten minutes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I welcome everybody. I wish to come back on the 10% pay increase for the executive board. To phrase it as best I can in relation to the reaction from the public, it was insult on top of injury. We sat at multiple Oireachtas hearings and committee hearings and not once was it mentioned. Nobody on the board, many of whom were here and are here today again, mentioned it.

It was bad enough that the Minister was not made aware of it. At this stage, does Mr. Bakhurst accept, when it comes to transparency, accountability and regaining the trust of the public, that was his first failure?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot say it was my first failure-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

No, not necessarily. It was the failure of the board itself in giving the information, bearing in mind that RTÉ is constantly looking for extra funding and saying it is in a dire financial state. The board did not even mention the fact, for example, that the former director general went from €306,000 to €316,000. She was hardly waiting on the extra €10,000 but she got it nonetheless, while a worker in administration or clerical on €24,000 got just 3% in January. Can Mr. Bakhurst understand how sickened the public are with that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can understand it because I am sickened myself. I have committed to total transparency around the pay of the leadership team under my leadership. That is what the Deputy, the other Deputies, the Houses of the Oireachtas and audiences deserve, and that is what I will deliver. There will be absolute transparency. As with a number of things, I do not understand why this was not conveyed to the Department. I have had a number of meetings with officials and the Minister. We have a good, open and transparent relationship. I put a lot of things - everything I can - on the table. Any other members of the leadership team present will confirm that the message from me and them is that we will operate in a totally transparent way and that sort of thing will not happen again. I totally understand it. I was sickened myself so I share that view.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay. Does Mr. Bakhurst accept that RTÉ has lost the confidence of the public to the tune of €21 million in licence fee renewals by year end? Does he accept RTÉ is on the verge of bankruptcy, could very easily go bust, and is in a perilous financial situation? Yet, when he responded on the matter of the 10% pay increase, he said that to be fair to the executive board, it had taken a pay cut. That does not show new broom leadership. RTÉ is on the verge of bankruptcy. It has lost the total confidence of the public to the tune of €21 million in funding through licence fees, yet nothing will be done about executives on scandalous salaries helping themselves to a 10% increase, with RTÉ crying poverty all the while. Mr. Bakhurst mentioned a freeze on recruitment and all that sort of thing but there is that kind of lavish expenditure, where people are paid salaries beyond most people's imagination, yet nothing is to be done about it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not accept many of the Deputy's premises. We are not on the verge of bankruptcy. I made that crystal clear. We are having to manage our cash extremely carefully but we are not on the verge of bankruptcy. I would not be able to run the organisation under my statutory responsibilities if I thought we were, and we are not. We have lost €21 million in licence fee payments, or are projected to by the end of the year, which is very disappointing. I am doing everything I-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Is RTÉ in a perilous financial situation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are in an extremely challenging financial situation, yes. I was crystal clear about that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That was what I said.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Well, no. You said we were facing bankruptcy. There is a difference.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If RTÉ continues in the spiral it is going on and is not restored, bankruptcy could well be a possibility.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We do not know what level the licence fees will be and we do not know what will happen about funding, which is why we are in proper, measured negotiations about it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will move on to a matter referenced in some of the documents we were furnished with. It relates to allowances. More than €4 million was paid in allowances. Some of them are perfectly understandable, including shift and call-out allowances, etc. However, one allowance is under the category "personal". An allowance just short of €500,000 in total was availed of by 46 people. The document states that the category of payments made to individuals includes allowances related to being on air, for example. Are people not already paid for being on air?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The issue of allowances is something that we are dealing with. We need to deal with it. There are far too many allowances in RTÉ. On car allowances, I think I have said this previously-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will come to that, and it is part of it, but this is in relation to the parts of the allowances that are paid people who are on air, and whether they are already being paid for being on air. What are they?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I could bring in the director of HR, if that is all right, to give the committee more detail. As far as I understand it, that category would be part of the overall pay package for individuals. They get a pay and they get an allowance for an on-air presenter allowance, for example, which means they get it while they are presenting. If they go back from presenting then they no longer get it. It gives us a degree of flexibility.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But are they already paid for presenting. This is an allowance on top of the salary they are being paid.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No. Sometimes, for example, a reporter or a correspondent will be asked to present on air. Rather than giving them an overall pay rise, which we then cannot get back if they are no longer on air, they may receive an allowance that means they get it while they are presenting on air but if they go back to being a reporter then they go back to earning as a reporter.

Deputy Imelda Munster

In the case that Mr. Bakhurst has specified there, does this apply to all 46 in receipt of that allowance?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not know the detail of all 46. Ms Cusack might know a little bit more about it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I have a couple of other questions and perhaps later-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can give more detail. I would like to give the Deputy the detail but we can write to the committee with that detail.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I will ask the other questions in relation to that as well.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sure.

Deputy Imelda Munster

We definitely need more detail on the breakdown of those 46. Is it the case of somebody just covering, or are there people who are already being paid for being on air and getting an allowance?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can get as much detail as we can, yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Does Mr. Bakhurst have a breakdown on how many are in receipt of multiple allowances? I am sure that is there somewhere.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can get that. I am not sure that it is in the paperwork as I have not seen it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Bakhurst referred to the car allowance. Do any of the 61 people who are in receipt of the car allowance actually have no driving licence? Is there anyone at all?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There could well be. This is why, when I was asked about this during the first week, I said I do not know why they are called car allowances frankly. It dates back to the 1980s. They are management allowances and in my view that is what they should be called or they should be part of salaries that we declare, full stop. One does not have to have a car or a driving licence to get a so-called car allowance. I do not understand why they put car allowances in. It is something that we will deal with when we review all allowances.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Do we not have that information, given that RTÉ was coming here today?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We did not go around all of them and ask if they have a driving licence. No.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Right so you just give it: "There is a car allowance and it does not matter if you do not drive."

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have not given the car allowances-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am not referring to Mr. Bakhurst himself but the practice has been there is a car allowance-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The practice has built up over 40 years of people getting car allowances. It explicitly says, as it does in my contract, that one does not have to spend this on a car and that the person can spend it if they want to on a car, which is why they should not be called that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Of the 61, how many are executives, board members or management? For example, do we know is any of the 50 lowest paid staff in receipt of a car allowance? I refer to those on the €24,000 to €30,000 salaries that we spoke about.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Ms Cusack will have detail on that.

Ms Eimear Cusack

All of the car allowances would be paid to managers. The category the Deputy mentioned would not be in receipt of car allowances. They may be in receipt of other allowances but not for cars.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Bakhurst has said that he is going to look at the situation on site. Would we have this in October, for example?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On the site?

Deputy Imelda Munster

With regard to the car allowances. Mr. Bakhurst will look at that in RTÉ.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can certainly update the committee on where we are. We are doing a wider piece of work about grading across the organisation and about allowances. As the committee members will be aware, we currently have 164 grades within the organisation, and numerous allowances. We need to simplify the organisation fairly. We need to talk to the unions, to management and to the staff about how we do that. We can certainly update the committee. I am not sure whether we will have a final solution by that stage but we will certainly update the committee.

Deputy Imelda Munster

With the strategic plan coming in October, the public and ourselves as the Oireachtas will expect all of this. It is all about transparency and, above all else, accountability. If things are not tightened up and all of that is not rooted out, nobody is going to buy it. I am not being smart by saying this, I am just telling Mr. Bakhurst that this is the fact.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I agree with the Deputy 100%.

Deputy Imelda Munster

If there is waste and a law unto themselves type of attitude-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I agree with the Deputy 100% and that is what I am trying to do.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Okay. I thank Mr. Bakhurst. With regard to being a law unto themselves, I wish to bring up the Soho House club.

We were blatantly misled by an executive board member who sat here at several committee hearings and distinctly told us that the rental of the Soho club was used for business meetings. RTÉ told us it was used for business meetings with clients because RTÉ no longer had offices in London. That was the very reason for which it was being used. RTÉ's documents show us, however, that in December 2022 and April 2023 no meetings had taken place, so we can assume that the former commercial director and a colleague had used it for accommodation purposes and not for the purpose given when they blatantly misled Oireachtas Members and the public. It in itself is quite shocking that a person would blatantly deceive Oireachtas Members and would find themselves on the executive board of an organisation that is in receipt of public funding and that is a public broadcasting organisation. It in itself is quite shocking that it was allowed get away with that. The other issue, however, is that there were also members of the executive board here when that was said, and no one contradicted it. What does that say about corporate governance and transparency?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot answer for the reason given. I find it shocking in the first place that we had that membership, to be honest. There was a period when we did not have a London office, when I was here originally, I think, but I do not see any reason to have membership of an expensive club like that in London, even if it was used for the occasional business meeting.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Which it was not.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

From what I have seen from the documents, no. That was the first I knew of that. This was something that was intended to meet probably commercial clients in London, and it was used by the commercial director to stay there when she did have those meetings, but I have read the documents as well. I would not necessarily expect that the other members of the executive would know why that was used if they had not used it themselves.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, but has RTÉ cancelled that membership of Soho House? Has that been retained?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are not paying it, as far as I am aware, no. I am sure we are not.

Deputy Imelda Munster

It has not been retained. Has it been cancelled?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not know. I hope so.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am sure finance would know.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Does Mr. Lynch know?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I do not have the details.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have not seen in the accounts that we are paying it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But someone in finance would know whether that membership was cancelled.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If that invoice came in, we would know about it. Has Mr. Fives seen any invoice?

Mr. Mike Fives

No, I have not.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Who would know about whether that was cancelled?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will come back and confirm to the Deputy that it has been cancelled. We are not paying it now. That is for sure.

Mr. Mike Fives

We have not paid any additional amounts to Soho House, so we have not renewed it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

But the membership would still cost, would it not?

Mr. Mike Fives

Well, we have not renewed it, so no payments have been made out to Soho House since I started.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I know no new payments have been made, but does RTÉ still have the membership? Is it still retained or-----

Mr. Mike Fives

I do not know. I will find out. I do not know the time period it was paid for.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I suspect that the deal with these clubs is that you pay an initial membership and then you pay an annual membership. We are not paying the annual membership. I do not know what is happening with the initial one, but you do not get your money back on that.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I am pointing all these things out to the witnesses just to highlight the level that did not exist when it comes to corporate governance. That is-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I agree with the Deputy.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Mr. Bakhurst has a hell of a job to root that out-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

-----and I wish you well with it.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

-----but I will do it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Good.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you, Deputy Munster. I call Senator Malcolm Byrne.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank our witnesses. I am very conscious that Mr. Bakhurst is only eight weeks into the job and is appearing before Oireachtas committees to answer questions. I am almost tempted to ask him if he regrets going for the job, if he knew then what he knows now. He does not have to answer that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Good.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Given the crisis of confidence that is there - and Mr. Bakhurst's battle is to restore confidence - both in his approach to date and the approach of the chair in recent months to try to restore confidence, I am quite happy that they are making the best efforts. They are dealing with a lot of legacy issues, and they do need to be dealt with, but the approach that has been taken by Mr. Bakhurst and the chair so far has been broadly welcome. I welcome the fact that they are engaging with the staff.

It is important to engage with the independent production sector as well. There is a long road to go and Mr. Bakhurst is aware of that. It is fair to say we are going to see a number of reports between now and the end of the year, on top of all we have seen, as he mentioned. Those reports are not likely to make pleasant reading for RTÉ. More damaging detail will emerge in the next few months. It is going to be very difficult to convince the Government to provide a bailout in the short term and then to address the long-term issues. How confident is Mr. Bakhurst that he can convince the Government and, more important, the public at large that the governance and culture structures will, by the end of this year, be significantly different from what we have seen in the past?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the Senator for his comments. I am confident the team and I will get there. We are doing everything we can to get there. It is extremely challenging, as the Senator said, when there is a drumbeat of these reports coming out, with legacy issues we have to deal with. They make unpleasant reading. As I said to Deputy Munster, I do not start to understand some of the decisions that were made, to be honest. However, we are dealing with them. As the reports come out, and I would take Mazars as a particular example, we will take the report, look at what we need to change and we will change it.

I have changed the leadership team. In due course, when we can recruit again, there will be some more changes and I will have a permanent leadership team. The current interim leadership team, with new people on it, is doing a great job. We are driving change and we are driving transparency. I hope that is evident in our dealings with this committee, with the Department and with staff. It is tough. I am confident we will get there in the end but it is tough.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Obviously, due process is to be followed but on the basis of the findings of those reports, can we be confident there will be accountability?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Absolutely. To be fair, there has been some accountability already for the issues that have arisen. A number of people have left the organisation. Sometimes, that is overlooked. People should be accountable for their actions and I will be accountable for mine too, by the way.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I thank Mr. Bakhurst. I have a number of specific questions around some of the issues. Mr. Fives might be able to respond. The Grant Thornton report, which kickstarted all of this process, determined that there were a number of under-declarations, that those under-declarations were not made on the part of Ryan Tubridy and Noel Kelly and that the RTÉ board was correct in its actions as soon as it became aware of correcting the record on this. Yet, Grant Thornton was not able to identify the reasons for that. This follows on from Senator Carrigy's question. Mr. Fives has now gone into the financial role. Is he any the wiser as to who was responsible for making those decisions to underreport?

Mr. Mike Fives

To be perfectly honest, I think we did not get all of the information from the interviews that were conducted in the Grant Thornton review. A lot of spreadsheets were reviewed and there was a version control factor. It is very difficult to say whether it was done on purpose or it was an accident that somebody inserted the wrong number.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

One of the issues we sought to address related to the 100 highest salaries. I appreciate this information could not be published for GDPR reasons. However, it is perhaps appropriate, particularly if people are being put on a scale, that there be transparency around those salary levels and scales. When Mr. Bakhurst was on "Prime Time" on 16 August, he indicated what Ryan Tubridy was going to be paid. For his radio slot and podcast, he would be on €170,000. I am wondering why, if Mr. Bakhurst was able to say what Mr. Tubridy's payment level was, we cannot at least see the scale around the 100 highest salaries. Did Mr. Bakhurst contact those 100 employees to see whether they were happy to have their scales published?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can answer both those questions. On the question about Ryan Tubridy and his salary, he had already agreed that we would put that in the public domain. I already had agreement from him and the expectation at that stage was we would sign a contract with him. He had agreed that his salary and the terms of the contract should be put in the public domain. That was part of what I insisted on.

The Senator asked about the top 100 people. We sent a list earlier today to the committee that was sent a few months ago. I felt it was fuller than the response we gave.

I did not remember which committee that had been sent to before my time but I knew there was a fuller response which probably is as much as we are able to give. The committee will be aware I always want to give as much information as we can.

The answer is "Yes". We asked a number of those people in the top 100 if they objected. A number of them did object to it, and then we took advice on GDPR, which Ms Mullooly may want to talk about.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I think I can help in relation to that. There were a number of objections after the anonymised list was given out. We sought external-----

Senator Malcolm Byrne

When Ms Mullooly says "a number", roughly-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I could not tell the Senator. I can find that out.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Out of 100, are we talking a handful?

Ms Paula Mullooly

We are talking a handful.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Okay.

Ms Paula Mullooly

They raised an objection on foot of that. External legal advice was taken, particularly in relation to the consent point. The advice we got back was that consent must be freely given, specific, informed and unambiguous and that given the pressure on RTÉ to co-operate, staff may feel compelled to consent so permission would not be voluntary. That was the advice that we were given in terms of asking individuals whether they would consent to that publication.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

It will help that we see the scales published. I appreciate some of the issues.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Absolutely.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Perhaps Ms Cusack might be able to advise on the changing cultural in governance. One of the issues has been the Resolve report into the culture at RTÉ current affairs where a number of recommendations have been made. Has that been implemented and are the recommendations being acted on?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes, it has. The current managing editor in current affairs has adopted the outcomes of that report. Much of it was around communication and engagement, involvement and, I guess, inclusivity. It is work that is ongoing. Paul Maguire has taken that very seriously and has addressed it.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I come then to the broader funding question which still remains critical because we need to address many of the historic issues. First of all, I want to raise the question of the independent production sector which relies heavily on it. When we talk about the quality drama, in particular, coming out of RTÉ, much of that is with the independent production sector. There are naturally concerns in that sector about the impact of what is going on, and particularly if we are to be talking about planning for 2024 and 2025. What reassurances can Mr. Bakhurst give to that sector in terms of RTÉ's level of support, particularly given he made an announcement on staff freezes today?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On the reassurance, first of all, there is evidence from the board here. There are a number of independent producers on the board so the interests of independent producers and our investment in the independent production sector is very much a part of the discussion we have. We are ambitious to increase our spend with the independent sector over time and that will be part of the strategy that we announce.

I have had a number of meetings with those from the independent sector. I tried to give them the reassurance we could. This is a priority for us. We rely on them, as the Senator rightly said, for virtually all of the most impactful and successful high-quality drama that we produce and we have a very good partnership with them.

It is a source of regret to me that we cannot put more money into the independent sector. If, in due course, there was more money available to put into content at RTÉ, a significant amount of that would go into the independent sector because part of RTÉ's core role at the heart of public service media in Ireland is to be part of a successful creative economy and help to drive those jobs around the country. We are committed to that. The chair is from that background and totally committed to it, as am I.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

We are moving to a situation whereby there is a reality in terms of a bailout that will be required of Government this year. Is Mr. Bakhurst prepared to indicate what he sees as the minimum in order to be able to keep the show on the road or what are the implications if that is not granted? What will the implications be, and we can have the short-term sticking plaster, for next year if the overall funding issue is not addressed?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I might bring the chair in on this. She also comes from a financial background, which is helpful. It is publicly acknowledged but it is important to say that there are two elements to our funding request. The first one is interim funding which was always envisaged as part of the agreement after the recommendations of the future media report were not implemented. Then it was a question of how much interim funding each year. Part of the discussion is about what interim funding we need for 2024 when there is a series of significant and expensive special events, including European and local elections, and a number of big sporting events as well.

That has informed what we have put in to the Department and those are the discussions we have been having with NewERA. It also takes into account the impact of inflation on our costs and so on. As the Senator can appreciate, inflation has impacted on our costs on fuel and production and so on. We are going through those rigorously with NewERA and there has been good engagement on that. It is asking tough questions, and rightly so, and we are trying to answer them.

There is the interim funding request, which is that we applied for €34.5 million, and separately to that there is the extra fall in TV licence revenue, which, as we know, is projected to be around €20 million or €21 million by the end of the year, depending on the level. That is hard to predict but on the current level that is approximately what it would be. We have put in that funding request because it gives us significant time to address other costs and to have further discussions and see where the licence fee is and where discussions are on future funding. That is what we have done to try to give us the time to make proper decisions next year about what we need to prioritise and where we can cut costs further in the next 12 months, if it is necessary to do so.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I want to add to that. Prior to the large decrease in the licence fee income, we would have based our plans around the estimates from the Department for the year for the licence fee, which is not happening, as we know. We cannot sustain that. It is important that we understand that prior to that happening we had enough runway to be able to get to where we want to go, but that is not the case anymore because it is a huge drop in income.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

When Ms Ní Raghallaigh mentions "enough runway", what is the estimated runway that RTÉ believes it requires until the end of the year?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I cannot say because it is down to an ongoing monitoring of how the level of non-payment is going. We are in constant contact with the Department on that.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Would it be fair to say the following about the quantum? We are looking at the €34 million that RTÉ has been chatting with NewERA about, plus whatever the deficit is in the licence fee income. We are looking at €34 million plus €21 million, which are the current projections, so it is €55 million in total.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

That discussion on the licence fee has to happen. A serious discussion on it is needed because we cannot predict what will happen in the next couple of months and we do not know if this is a constant thing that will continue. I do not have a crystal ball in that sense.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

I appreciate that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I would like to add to that to give the Senator an idea of the quantum of it. The estimate for licence fee income this year from the Department was €197 million. We were tracking slightly lower than that anyway and we now have a hole of €21 million in that for this year. If we look ahead to next year the estimate would have been around the same, and if it tracks at the same level then people can do the maths on what the hole will be next year. It will be far in excess of €21 million. The only thing I would add to what Ms Ní Raghallaigh said is that one of the good things is that commercial income has been performing well and is ahead of target, so that is closing some of the hole but it is a big hole to close. The commercial team has been doing a great job and the schedules and the Rugby World Cup and so on have helped with that, and our commercial revenue, particularly in TV, is going pretty well. That is helping, as are some of the cuts that we are looking to impose, as I announced today.

Mr. Mike Fives

The initiative that we have raised today will help to extend that runway. The finance team is working closely with the business to see what we can do. It is all hands on deck to try to extend out that runway while we are in negotiations with the Department to get that.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Does RTÉ think that the commercial revenue will match the fall in licence fee revenue?

Mr. Mike Fives

No. I would not. However, it is looking positive, we have had a lot of support from the commercial sector and the teams have a done a really good job to monetise the likes of the Rugby World Cup and all the other things that are on the autumn schedule.

An Cathaoirleach

I call Deputy Cannon. The floor is his.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I thank each and every one of the witnesses for joining us in what Ms Ní Raghallaigh described as a special sitting reflective of the gravity of the situation in which RTÉ finds itself right now. We are here to work as best we can in partnership with them in restoring trust in RTÉ and ensuring the future of our public service broadcaster. As it has rightly been pointed out, we have a role to play, as legislators, in ensuring the method of collection of our licence fee is reflective of how people consume media in the 21st century and of the very valuable service RTÉ provides. That is our role and function.

My Fine Gael colleagues and I made a lengthy submission to the Future of Media Commission suggesting that there should be deep reform of the licence fee collection mechanism. That proposal, which was presented by the commission to the Government, did not get through Government scrutiny. I am enthused by the recent statement by the Taoiseach committing again to look at this, legislate for an alternative method of collection and have that method in place by 2025.

If legislators are to go to the Irish public with renewed determination to support the future of RTÉ, it is crucial that we have their support and trust. That is where we are falling down. RTÉ is falling down in restoring that public trust. Despite numerous opportunities being presented to the former board and, I would argue, the current board to some extent, we are still not there. I commend Mr. Bakhurst in particular on all of his public outings in the past eight weeks. He has done his utmost in trying to restore that public trust. He has been open and transparent and appears exceptionally committed to the future of RTÉ. I hope he gets the support of the board and his executive team colleagues in doing exactly that.

Let us dwell for a moment on where we are at. I pointed out in the most recent committee meeting at which the board appeared that there is a massive failure in the reporting mechanisms and structures in place within RTÉ right now to ensure the debacle we have just witnessed can never happen again. I would like to be able to say to the Irish public that I am now confident those reporting structures have changed and that we are not in a situation where the former chair of the board, Moya Doherty, could say it was staggering that neither she nor her board colleagues were even aware of the existence of a barter account.

In the context of ensuring that RTÉ is putting in place or has already put in place better reporting mechanisms, I will ask Ms Ní Raghallaigh a question. On 28 June, she stated before this committee in regard to the understatement of Ryan Tubridy's earnings from 2017 to 2019: "Why this figure was understated, and by whom, is a question we as a board are also very anxious to know the answer to." The Grant Thornton in-depth review is now complete and one would hope that, as a result, we are at least a bit further on in having confidence that the board now has those necessary reporting mechanisms in place. At the end of that process, do we now know the answers to that very simple question? It is one of many questions that have seriously dented public confidence in RTÉ and its board, structures and culture. Do we know why that figure was under-reported and by whom?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I think we can surmise, as was pointed out in the report itself, that it appeared to be a mechanism to report the earnings under €500,000. As to who did that, the report factually points out that it straddled two chief financial officers, namely, the previous chief financial officer and the financial officer who started afterwards; in fact, he was there when she was still there during a handover period. Also, there is a dispute, so to speak, as to who is responsible for what.

That is all in the report. It is one person's story versus another person's story. We cannot make assumptions unless somebody says "Actually I should have taken ownership of that". What I had hoped would have happened with the Grant Thornton report was that executives would have owned their mistakes and said "Hands up, that was me." However, that did not happen.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Therein lies the problem. I would argue that therein lies the crux of the ambition that should be employed by RTÉ right now in trying to restore the trust of the Irish public in its board's oversight of how RTÉ operates. That is critically important. Yesterday - I know Mr. Bakhurst might argue it is inconsequential, but the optics of it are horrific - an advertisement was placed to hire a photographer and pay him or her €80,000 a year to sit on the set of Fair City and take a few photographs every day. When Mr. Bakhurst was asked about this earlier, he was not even aware of it. He was not aware who had made that decision, or why the figure of €80,000 a year, which is €240,000 over three years, had been applied. That might seem inconsequential in an organisation that spends millions of euro every year, but in terms of the optics of that to the general public, not knowing details such as who made that decision is just horrific.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I clarify that? I was aware of it this morning and I immediately asked for the details of it.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

Mr. Bakhurst had not been made aware of it before the advertisement was placed.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No. I am not aware of every single hiring decision in the organisation. I was surprised to see that, particularly if it is a contract rather than permanent staff. However, I will get to the bottom of it and I will report back on it.

I will come to the question Deputy Cannon asked about the reporting of Mr. Tubridy's salary from 2017 to 2019. As Ms Ní Raghallaigh rightly says, Grant Thornton in the end had to surmise what it thought had happened because there were conflicting reports. All I can say is that the procedures we have put in place in the organisation now will ensure that could never happen again now. Decisions on top presenters’ salaries now come to the full leadership team for discussion, which was not the case in the past. Any top presenter’s salary which is approved by the leadership team then has to go to the board committee to be approved as well. There is a really clear, transparent process there and a sign-off which will ensure that will not happen. We have already committed to publishing every single year in real time the salaries of the top ten presenters. Those will be fully audited by our auditors so that they can be relied on as part of the annual report. Together we have taken the measures. Even if we cannot get to the exact detail of which individual took that decision, we are confident that it cannot happen again because we have put in place the procedures to address it.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

That is very helpful to hear. I thank Mr. Bakhurst.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Regarding the line between the leadership team and the board, those procedures are tightened up now. We will receive the minutes of all the leadership group meetings. We have oversight of that. We have put many things in place. We are changing many of the terms of reference for the subcommittees as well to make sure everything is clear.

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

I have a final question. My colleague Senator Carrigy alluded to this earlier. RTÉ is probably sitting on one of the most valuable landbanks in the country, if not the most valuable. There is no question about that. I believe that RTÉ, as an organisation that is on a precarious financial footing - it is a judgment call as to how precarious it is - needs to consider seriously the future of that landbank and the role its value has to play in the survival of RTÉ. I am no expert in real estate but if I look at the previous sale in 2017, I would argue that - conservatively - it is probably worth in the region of €500 million at this point. I ask this question not in jest; I am deadly serious in asking it. Has it ever been considered why RTÉ has to locate itself in Dublin? In this country, we have a long-standing problem in that all of Irish public life is very much focused on this place where we now sit on the eastern side of the island.

There are numerous other locations in which RTÉ could place itself. An airport site of 115 acres in Galway city is owned by the taxpayer. Four RTÉs could fit on the site, which is in a city that has a longstanding tradition of drama, film and music production. Galway is one of just five cities in the world to be designated as a UNESCO city of film. There is an extraordinary tradition of production there. There are 50 production companies there, with 600 staff. TG4 does extraordinary work there. In fact, the possibility exists to co-locate TG4 and RTÉ on this site, with all of the synergies and the economies of scale that could be achieved through that. I am nearly certain that it is in the Gaeltacht. Will RTÉ contemplate moving lock, stock and barrel out of Dublin city? I would argue that the symbolism of that for the Irish people as a whole would be very powerful. RTÉ would be able to sell that site. It is something RTÉ should consider seriously. Has that ever been considered? Has such a discussion ever taken place at board level?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can talk a little on that now. What I would say about the location is that everything is under consideration in terms of the strategy. One of the things we are focusing on is moving more staff and production out of Dublin. We are totally focused on what value we can get from the site. I hope the Deputy is right. If it is worth €500 million, that would be great news but I rather suspect it is not. We are getting a professional valuation done on the site. We are trying to leverage everything we can. At the same time, as a leadership team we are trying to address the exact question the Deputy has raised. We make a lot of content around Ireland. Most of our high-quality dramas in the past year were not made in Dublin-----

Deputy Ciarán Cannon

True.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

-----although "Kin" obviously was. Many of them were not. We are ambitious to do more of that. It is very much part of the plan we hope to unveil in October. As for Galway, the Deputy will find that our chair is quite supportive of his suggestion.

An Cathaoirleach

With the agreement of committee members, we will take a break after Senator Cassells has asked his questions.

Senator Shane Cassells

I welcome the witnesses, and Mr. Bakhurst in particular. In an earlier response, he mentioned his dealings with staff and his interactions with them. On my way to the committee room, I heard Emma O'Kelly of the RTÉ branch of the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, on the "News At One" with Bryan Dobson. Ms O'Kelly, who is RTÉ's education correspondent, expressed the worries of staff following Mr. Bakhurst's announcement of a recruitment freeze. She sought clarification about that. She said that "once again .... ordinary workers are going to bear the brunt" for a crisis they did not cause. She referred to it as a "governance crisis" caused by decisions made "at the very top", but suggested that "ordinary workers seem to be bearing the brunt". They are powerful words from a senior journalist in this country who has the respect of the public. I ask Mr. Bakhurst whether Emma O'Kelly is right. Will ordinary journalists in his organisation now bear the brunt for what has happened, for this mess and for this lack of governance at a time when top executives are getting their pay reinstated and ex-presenters are going off into the sunset? Is Emma O'Kelly right?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If I have anything to do with it, she will not be right about this. As the Senator will know, part of my priority has been to engage with staff and unions, including with Emma O'Kelly. We have to make tough decisions because of position the organisation is in. Part of the reason that we have to make decisions early, and that is it important we preserve the cash we have, is so we do not have to be in the position of looking down the barrel of a gun with compulsory redundancies. I have been asked about that. I have attended more than 30 staff meetings at RTÉ in the last few weeks and one of the questions that always comes up is, "Are you going to impose compulsory redundancies?". I have said that I will do everything in my power to make sure we do not get to that point. I do not want to get there. I do not think the Government would be keen to sign off on that either. We would have to get permission from the Government. That would be the final thing we would ever want to get to. I think it is true - I have said this at all the staff meetings I have attended - that during this period the staff have carried the reputation of the organisation on their shoulders.

I have used those words in a number of the meetings because they have. The news teams, which Emma O'Kelly is part of, the current affairs teams and the sports teams in recent days have produced fantastic output. They have carried on working through this when it is has been extremely difficult. They have been dealing with a number of news stories almost every day about their own organisation, which I know from my background in news is pretty testing. They have done it with extreme professionalism and commitment. I have said to them face to face that I am very grateful.

The answer is that I am afraid they are sharing some of the pain. We are all taking pain at the moment because of the financial challenge facing us.

Senator Shane Cassells

The recruitment freeze is a stabilisation measure. Mr. Bakhurst said he did not want to impose mandatory staff cuts. Will a process of voluntary redundancies be offered? When looking at the headcount within RTÉ, we have spoken about the loss of confidence among the public. They are looking at a very small portion of the RTÉ high earners, many of whom are not staff members, like Emma O’Kelly, and they are looking at where those cost-saving measures can be made. In that respect, the essence of her words is that it will not be on the journalist who is on €50,000 or €60,000, working behind the scenes, as opposed to a top presenter, who might do a couple of hours a week but is on €250,000 a year. Where will Mr. Bakhurst direct that freeze and those voluntary redundancies before he has to impose mandatory staff redundancies that will fall on ordinary journalists?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I hope to give a certain amount of detail on the plan in October – as much as we can at that stage. Part of the plan will be a smaller organisation. One of the ways of achieving that is through voluntary paid redundancies and targeted redundancies.

Senator Shane Cassells

Within that, what will be the potential headcount of voluntary redundancies, while conscious of the point Emma O’Kelly made in her interview with Bryan Dobson that they do not have enough staff at the moment within news and current affairs to cover the required output? That has an impact on what RTÉ can cover. I refer to allowing for annual leave as well. That is why I asked where Mr. Bakhurst is seeking to make those cost-saving measures.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think it is pretty well publicised that I am already trying to deal with some of the top salaries, and I have already dealt with one or two. That is an ongoing process. I already said that as some of the top salaries come up, we will review them and be transparent about the salaries we are paying so that we can be judged on that.

Senator Shane Cassells

Mr. Bakhurst mentioned areas where this will impact, such as the outside broadcasting unit and so on, because obviously that costs a lot of money. Where else are the impacts on investment? Mr. Bakhurst mentioned moving outside of Dublin. There were plans for Athlone and so forth. Where else are those cost-saving measures going to hit RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will work it through. Part of it is about outside broadcast. We have a range of other-----

Senator Shane Cassells

What would that impact? Is that specifically sport?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It could be sport or other live events. We have to look at everything. I am mindful we have party conferences coming up. These all cost a lot of money to cover live and they are an important part of our remit but we are now in a position where we have to make some very tough choices.

I wish to return to the Senator’s point about Emma O’Kelly and the news teams not having enough people. I am sure that is true. They work extremely hard. Going forward, we will have to make some choices as well about the programming we do and the number of services we have. If we have fewer staff, we cannot carry on doing everything we do at the moment; that is in recognition of the stretch that staff are under.

Senator Shane Cassells

Mr. Bakhurst made quite a combative statement this afternoon. I do not mind that because politicians have made quite combative statements as well, for example, about going to the sell the studio from under his feet and have him filming in a carpark. In his statement, Mr. Bakhurst warned us of the demise of RTÉ if we did not work together – politicians and RTÉ collaboratively – and published the plans for the reform of the licence. In fairness to RTÉ, it has called for this for many years. Mr. Bakhurst will have heard the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael McGrath, yesterday quite clearly when he said that a State-supported body looking to the Exchequer for funding rarely gets everything it wants. Mr. Bakhurst’s full strategic reform and transformation plan will not be ready until the end of this year. Will that plan take account of the anticipated growing losses, running at €1 million a week and will accrue in the next 14 weeks until Christmas, if people continue this trajectory of not renewing their licence, or is his plan based on reform going forward from January 2024 and he will still be looking for that payment of €55 million to plug the hole at this moment in time?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The plan will be costed as best it can be when we reveal it in October and then in much more detail-----

Senator Shane Cassells

Will the framework plan be published before budget day?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

That is my intent at the moment.

Senator Shane Cassells

Okay, so within that framework plan there will be a ballpark figure then-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Senator Shane Cassells

-----beyond what we have at the moment in terms of both this year and, as Mr Bakhurst said, projected for next year.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is very important that we need to separate these two things. We have the immediate running of the organisation for this year and next year. The strategy will be costed. A lot of what is going to be in the strategy are not things we can achieve by the beginning of 2024 or even by the middle of 2024. If we are looking at selling part or all of Donnybrook, if we are looking at other places around the country we want to move to and invest in, if we are looking at some form of targeted reshaping of the organisation, these are things that take not weeks or months but years to achieve. A lot of it has a price tag and we will set that out. If we are going to go for a redundancy programme comprising voluntary redundancies, which is the only programme I really would want to do, it has a price tag and it is not cheap to do. Frankly, we cannot afford to do it now. If I wanted to make voluntary redundancies now we cannot afford them.

Senator Shane Cassells

I appreciate separating the different things. Mr. Bakhurst and I are extremely savvy professionals who are able to read the mood music emanating from senior Cabinet members. That is where the decisions are going to be made. They are not going to be made in this committee room. They will be made between the Minister, Deputy Catherine Martin, the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Cabinet with regard to achieving what Mr. Bakhurst wants to do. There seems to be a game of chicken and egg going on in terms of the Cabinet looking for demonstrable actions from RTÉ before those actions are taken. My fear as a member of the public looking in is whether there will be a stand-off.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am working as hard as I can to avoid a stand-off. I am trying to give them as much information as possible. I am taking action as quickly as I can. We have done quite a lot in eight weeks so far. I have brought forward the strategy because I know the public, the politicians and the Government in particular need a plan before they can even start to address long-term public funding. I am doing everything in my power-----

Senator Shane Cassells

As part of this, things like Montrose become a lightning rod. It becomes easy for people to say, "Sell Montrose and that will solve the problems". Selling it would be a demonstrable example of something that RTÉ has done. However, if it is sold once it is gone.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Correct.

Senator Shane Cassells

It is gone.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Correct.

Senator Shane Cassells

It is clear from Mr. Bakhurst's comments that it is part of the rescue plan. He said that doing nothing is not an option.

Deputy Shane Cassells

Correct.

Senator Shane Cassells

Has Mr. Bakhurst looked at scoping potential sites in the further reaches of Dublin if the full sale was on with regard to what RTÉ would require to operate efficiently?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, we have looked at that. We are looking at all options. I would say selling the site in Donnybrook sounds like a great instant solution. We are getting an estimate for the latest valuation on it. We have also priced what it would cost to move to new premises to provide the kind of broadcasting we want.

Senator Shane Cassells

There has been work done on the RTÉ campus to provide new radio facilities for "Morning Ireland" and "The Late Debate". What is the cost of this investment at that end of the campus, which is away from the old radio centre?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It has been millions. The new radio studios are fantastic and the old ones are falling apart but we still have to use them. Unfortunately, one of the things I have had to stop spending on for the moment is refitting some of the old radio studios where the sound mix desks are not working. They are expensive to replace. These are the kinds of choices we are having to take.

Senator Shane Cassells

Equally, and this is where it becomes a debating point among the public, in RTÉ people come to a reception area that is the size of a hotel in New York. At Virgin Media the reception area is the size of a semi-detached bedroom in the city. It is operating as a lean unit and every inch of the studio has a practical use. In a partial sell-off has Mr. Bakhurst identified how RTÉ could operate on the site?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Senator Shane Cassells

From Mr. Bakhurst's perspective, the plan is to remain on Montrose with a slimmed-down version.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not necessarily. All options are on the table.

Senator Shane Cassells

Since Mr. Bakhurst came before the committee previously we have had the departure of Ryan Tubridy from RTÉ. One of the key things debated during the meetings when Mr. Tubridy came before the committee was the issue of the €150,000 payments. Some people have said it is not a large amount of money but it is 937 television licences when we are losing a considerable amount of money.

He did say at this committee that he would repay the money if the events for which he was being paid it – he got it in advance – did not occur. They are clearly not going to happen now and be attended by Mr. Tubridy. Has a payment plan been put in place for RTÉ to recoup the money – a not small amount?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The answer is "No". I asked him about that money. I said at the last committee meeting at which I appeared that I thought we do not have a legal mechanism to get it back, because it was agreed by RTÉ, but I think there is a moral case. I asked him about it. It was in the committee's documents that it was part of the proposed deal that if he came back, he would repay that money. This is all I can say about it.

Senator Shane Cassells

Absolutely, but at the time Mr. Tubridy said in this particular committee room that he would repay the money if he did not attend the events for RTÉ, he did not know whether he would have a job. He said he did not know whether he would have a job come the following Friday. It turns out he did not have a job. It turns out that he did say, prior to knowing whether he would have a job and to having the contract negotiations with Mr. Bakhurst, that the €150,000 would be written off over two years, that he was going to return the money. Is there not a moral duty on RTÉ to pursue Mr. Tubridy for the money?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As I said, we have no legal tools to pursue him. I have said what I have to say about it, which is that I think there is a moral case to pay it back, but I also understand that, as a result of where negotiations went, Mr. Tubridy does not have a source of income at the moment.

Senator Shane Cassells

Has there been any contact, legal or otherwise, from Mr. Tubridy or his agent, Mr. Noel Kelly, since those talks ceased?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Senator Shane Cassells

What have those talks centred on? Is it a case of still pursuing a scenario in which Mr. Tubridy would re-enter the organisation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No.

Senator Shane Cassells

Have there been scenarios to do with payments owed by RTÉ to Mr. Tubridy?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There has been legal correspondence, just about the ending of the contract. I cannot go into further detail on that.

Senator Shane Cassells

Are there moneys owed by RTÉ to Mr. Tubridy outstanding?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not as far as we are concerned, no.

Senator Shane Cassells

Has there been any threat of legal action by Mr. Kelly in respect of him being frozen out by Mr. Bakhurst in terms of not negotiating with him and his top talent?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, he has not been frozen out by me. In fact, I have openly said to a number of people that they are free to use whichever agents they want. It is just my personal choice I am not negotiating with Mr. Noel Kelly.

Senator Shane Cassells

My final questions are for members of the board. Mr. Kehoe is in my line of vision, so I will pick on him. He has obviously worked in RTÉ and is now on the board. What is his view, as a board member, on everything that has transpired over the last number of months both within the organisation and at these committee hearings? What are his feelings on this and on his role and the board’s role in this process?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I thank the Senator. I will make just a couple of points and try to keep it brief. We have seen the best of RTÉ but unfortunately we have also seen the worst of RTÉ. As the chair described it, the events have been unseemly and have portrayed RTÉ in a really bad light. Rightly so. The Senator mentioned Emma O’Kelly. I am a journalist by trade. When I look at all the work that the journalists have done in RTÉ to pursue the story vigorously and not turn a blind eye to it, I believe they have shown a level of professionalism of which board members and members of the interim leadership team here can be proud. Everyone is really proud that they have pursued that. Overall, looking at it from a very big-picture point of view, what has happened is that there has been enough blame to go around. The board has to own an element of that blame as well, but the one thing I will say is that when we learned about this in March, when we first got calls that there may be an issue around two €75,000 invoices, we did not back down. We pursued it and kept on pursuing it. We put all of the information into the public domain as quickly and transparently as we possibly could, knowing – we all knew – that it would have significant reputational consequences for the organisation. However, as a board, we felt it was the right thing to do.

My time on the board is coming to an end in the coming weeks. It is at that point that you reflect on where the organisation is. I do hope that, going forward, as the chair said, we can have a real dialogue about what sort of public service broadcaster we want in this country. Once we decide upon that, we can have the conversation about how we fund it. Those conversations need to be had. It is not just a case of RTÉ deciding; it needs stakeholder engagement and buy-in from policymakers, legislators, the Department and, crucially, the public. I do not know whether I have answered the Senator's question.

Senator Shane Cassells

I have two points, one being to follow up on Mr. Kehoe's position on that and the buy-in by the public.

Does Mr. Kehoe believe the transformation plan from Mr. Bakhurst needs to be published before the Cabinet decides to move to introduce a media charge on each of the 2.1 million homes in this country that the Revenue will be collecting to ensure the money comes in? Additionally, what actions would RTÉ have to take to ensure there is public buy-in? I ask this because a large portion of the public have made their decision. We are now moving from a scenario of governing by consent to enforcing something that will be collected by the Revenue.

Mr. Ian Kehoe

Absolutely. We hear a lot of rhetoric about bailouts. It was acknowledged in last year's budget that RTÉ required interim funding to the tune of €15 million after the Future of Media Commission's main recommendation for funding the organisation was rejected. It has always been accepted that RTÉ needs interim Government funding. In this case, interim seems to be multi-year until a mechanism has been devised to replace it. If I were the Government, then of course I would like to see the plan before moving into a longer-term structure regarding how RTÉ will be financed, be that through a media charge, the Revenue collecting the licence fee, etc. There are many different options on the table and they are all outlined in the commission's report.

I must say that I have been utterly impressed by the work the new director general has put in to try to engage with the Government to outline in a transparent and open way where he wants to drive the organisation. He has been assisted by the chair in doing that. It is a level of openness and transparency that, having sat on the board for five years, I have not been accustomed to. I am delighted to see it out there.

Senator Shane Cassells

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

That brings us nicely up to our break. I ask colleagues to agree to a suspension for ten minutes to let everybody have a break. We will resume at 3.20 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 3.07 p.m. and resumed at 3.21 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Our next contributor is Deputy Griffin. The floor is his.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I ask Ms O'Leary, as chair of the audit and risk committee, how many qualified accountants, apart from herself, have been on the audit and risk committee while she has been there.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I want to make it clear that I am not a qualified accountant; I am a civil engineer. In my time, there has not been a qualified accountant.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

On the audit and risk committee.

Ms Anne O'Leary

On the audit and risk committee. By the way, I think it would be a brilliant idea but it is not my job to appoint people to the committee.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That is pretty extraordinary. Ms O'Leary, two journalists and a lawyer-mediator sit on the committee.

Ms Anne O'Leary

That is correct.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Corporate governance codes require that an audit committee include at least one independent director with an accountancy or auditing background. Why was this requirement ignored? I was just looking around and the DAA, for example, has a committee of four, three of whom have accountancy expertise. Two members of the board of An Post have accountancy expertise, but RTÉ has nobody with that expertise.

Ms Anne O'Leary

It is not my position to put people on my committee. I was just asked to be the chair and I said "Yes".

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is important for the committee that these facts are out there because this is ultimately an accounting and finance problem. This is the audit and risk committee and there is no accounting or auditing expertise on it. Apart from Ms Ní Raghallaigh, who has recently come in, and I am looking at pre-2022 when all of the damage was done, was there anyone on the RTÉ board with accountancy or auditing expertise or anyone who spoke the language of auditors?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

There was. Shane Naughton was the former chief financial officer of the Economist Group when he left the board in early 2020. He was a qualified accountant and he sat on the audit and risk committee up until that point. It is worth noting that when we have appeared before this committee, which appoints a significant number of members to the board, we have asked specifically for accounting qualifications. Up until Ms Ní Raghallaigh's appointment, however, there was not an accountant.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Has there been no one with accountancy expertise on the committee since Shane Naughton left?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

We did request this committee to appoint an accountant.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is Mr. Kehoe saying to me now that there was nobody-----

Mr. Ian Kehoe

Apart from the chair.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is he saying that, apart from the chair, who is recently appointed, there was nobody at all?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

As I said, we did ask and it was not done.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

How many meetings of the remuneration committee were held in 2018?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I have to ask Ms Mullooly to respond.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not have the figures off the top of my head. I think they were included in the documents we furnished.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It was one. How many meetings were held in 2019?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I think there were none.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There was one.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Okay.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

How many meetings were held in 2020?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not know.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It was zero. How many were held in 2021?

Ms Paula Mullooly

One.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

How many were held in 2022?

Ms Paula Mullooly

None.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

None. RTÉ's own rules stated there should be a minimum of two meetings per annum.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Correct.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I ask the entire board whether anyone raised the issue that no meetings of the remuneration committee were taking place. By the way, this is a remuneration issue.

All of this exploded. It is going to cost the organisation €50 million because of massive failings relating to remuneration. The board needs to start owning this. I have heard of plenty of scapegoats and people thrown under buses but the board is in charge of oversight. Did anybody on the board raise the fact that the remuneration committee only met a handful of times and broke its own rules over the past five years? I have asked a simple question. Nobody seems to have raised this matter. Did someone raise it and, if so, what happened? Did the secretary raise it?

Ms Paula Mullooly

There is no doubt that there was a lapse of governance in holding-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Did Ms Mullooly ever point that out to the board?

Ms Paula Mullooly

----remuneration committee meetings. It would appear that the meetings were organised on ad hoc basis, as requested. The former chair stated, I think at this committee, that she had had conversations with the director general on highest earner pay but that was not a substitute for proper, formal remuneration committee meetings.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have copies of the minutes of two meetings between 2017 and June 2023. That is all we have in terms of documentation relating to the remuneration committee. I reiterate that this whole thing blew up from a remuneration issue. Both meetings seem to have been about pay for senior executives and the car allowance as well. That seems to have been all that was discussed.

Ms Paula Mullooly

That is an issue, with the previous terms of reference of the committee, that it did not specifically call out certain things. That has now been corrected and amended with the new amendments.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am glad to say, since this whole thing blew up, that 30 June was the first meeting and so there have been three meetings in three months. Before that there was a handful, or three or four meetings, in the space of five or six years. When we examine what went wrong here then that is a major component in terms of giving us the answer.

Mr. Kehoe has been on the board for a long time. On self-evaluation and the Code of Practice for the Governance of State Bodies, was the decision not to hold successive self-evaluations a breach of the code in 2016, 2017, 2019, 2020 and 2021?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I was not on the board in 2016, 2017 and 2018. I only joined the board at the end of 2018. There was a strenuous internal self-evalation, which I think was furnished to this committee last year.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes. You gave yourselves really high marks.

Mr. Ian Kehoe

No, we did not. It raised a number of significant questions about diversity and inclusion, and more effectiveness.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Why did an external evaluation not happen even though the rules stipulate that should happen every three years?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

It should have happened and it did not happen during the Covid period. We also waited, I think, six or seven months for four new board members to arrive. We thought it would be best-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Is that not an absurd excuse? Sure one is always going to be waiting for board members. There is always going to be a reason.

Mr. Ian Kehoe

No.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does Mr. Kehoe not think that this is a major failing on behalf of the board?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I think it should have happened, yes.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was it ever raised by the board that this should happen?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

It came up at a board meeting and it was decided to wait while Covid was ongoing.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Raised by whom?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

By the board. By the Chair at the time, I believe.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was there kickback by the board about external evaluation?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

There was no kickback.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It did not happen though, did it?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

No, it did not.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

How was it decided that it would not happen?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

It was decided that while Covid was ongoing it was very difficult to do that sort of external self-evaluation but the internal audit function within RTÉ did a comprehensive board evaluation.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The findings of the board, and the questions in terms of its own performance, has an average rating of four out of five or 80%, which are Saddam Hussein approval ratings. I do not think that they deserved a rating of 80% but that is my own view.

On Toy Show , the Musical, earlier I referred to scapegoating and people being thrown under the bus. Mr. Coveney was here in July and dealt with a lot of negativity about Toy Show, the Musical. He might have been directly in charge but I asked him on the day whether anyone shouted "Stop" or say "No". Did anyone on the board raise objections prior to the musical being a flop? Did the issue come before the board?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I will answer that. I was not there but it did. There was a presentation before the board. It was the audit and risk committee, and some people from the programme committee.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was it approved by the board?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I do not think there was a-----

Ms Anne O'Leary

The audit and risk committee had a fairly lengthy discussion with the head of commercial, Mr. Rory Coveney. We then brought it to the board. We did not have a vote on it. We did not bring it or propose it to the board.

A number of things had happened at the time that they had gone ahead with. However, I would much rather see the full result of the Grant Thornton review before I say any more because I am not sure.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was anyone against the proposal?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Pardon?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Did anyone on the board object to it at the time?

Ms Anne O'Leary

An awful lot of questions were asked, and they were not answered.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It still went ahead. What is the board for if questions asked are not answered and it still goes ahead? What was the point even asking the questions? This is ludicrous. The board is looking for €50 million from the taxpayer, and I am not getting answers to basic questions here. We are going round in circles.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I will say that, yes, there are questions around the governance of that project. We are awaiting the third Grant Thornton report. I believe there are serious questions and serious reviews that the board has to undertake based on that. We have changed some of how we operate in that regard in the interim.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes, but the same board people who were there at the time are still here, and they are looking for €50 million. My licence is up for renewal this month. It is €160. I would not trust them with my €160, never mind €160 million. I would rather go down to Murphys bar in Boolteens, and buy a round of drinks. At least I would know where my money went. I would get more cultural content, and I would get more straight talking from people. However, this is the position the board is in at the moment, and I do not think there is any realisation of its role in this. My first parliamentary question on the licence fee showed that there was not a drop-off in the licence fee. It was working. Ms Ní Raghallaigh might say that it is antiquated. She said that in her opening statement. She said that it is not fit for purpose and so on. However, it was bringing in €160 million per annum until now. The first response I received to a question showing a drop-off was 17 July. It was working well until then. It was not perfect. This committee has said it was not perfect. However, the board needs to own the fact that through its failings it has cost €50 million in licence revenue. I am not seeing any acknowledgement of that. I see loads of finger pointing at different people, but I am not seeing this board accept that it had a huge role in this. Its failures from a corporate governance point of view is responsible for this huge loss, this huge hole in the finances, and the massive problems the new DG faces in trying to steer the ship. I am not sensing it from anyone here.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am saying that there is probably going to be a drop in the region of €21 million on the licence fee this year.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes, and in the full 12 months of the calendar year, it will be up to €50 million if it continues at the same rate.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We are also coming from a place where we had the highest evasion rate in Europe anyway, prior to that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The bottom line is that it is €50 million. Does it not occur to the board that that is a huge loss, and that it is responsible for it? They are not accepting responsibility, are they?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I am accepting responsibility-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It does not look it.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

-----but I am sorry, I do not think we can accept responsibility regarding the failings to address the issues around the funding model for RTÉ.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

You are the board. The mathematics are that there was €160 million coming in. There will now be €50 million less, because of the board's failings. It needs to accept responsibility.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

There will be €21 million less-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Over 12 months.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

-----and the €34 million that has been requested relates to other issues, which were identified in the Report of the Future of Media Commission.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Ms Ní Raghallaigh still does not get it. She still does not get it.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I accept it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It does not look like it to me.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

You also have to accept that there is a fundamental problem with the licence fee.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Are the barter accounts - the slush funds - still open?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

With respect, throwing in words like "slush funds" is not helpful. We have reformed the barter account. It is now purely for the sale of TV advertising.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Who had the power to approve the transactions from the barter account? I call it a slush fund because that is what it was.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was not a slush fund.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I think it was.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was a barter account. It was inappropriately used and the controls were not in place.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

There were 2,000 flip-flops. Most people would call it a slush fund.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

With respect-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Will Mr. Bakhurst answer the question please?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

What is the question?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Who was responsible for signing off on the transactions? We did not find that out yet either.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Who was responsible for signing off the barter account?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The commercial director was responsible.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Who was that? Geraldine O'Leary is it? Jim Jennings?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Jim Jennings, yes. No, no, the commercial director was responsible, it was Geraldine O'Leary.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Okay. I have a question about the documentation we received relating to "The Movie Show." Why was so much of that documentation redacted?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I will answer that. I produced "The Movie Show" through an independent production company from 2011-12.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I know. I asked about it in July of this year.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The reason it was redacted is because they are the commercial terms. There is commercial sensitivity in terms of the commercial partner. Everything else is in there.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Who decided what would be redacted? Who was in the room?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

In terms of what would be redacted?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Yes.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I asked the director of legal to redact it in accordance with the commercial terms.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Did Mr. Lynch have an input into what was redacted?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Absolutely. I gave the instruction that the commercial terms-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Did Mr. Lynch not have a conflict there?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Will the Deputy let me explain? The reason the commercial terms were redacted is that, in order to deliver the paperwork to the committee, the first thing I needed to do was to write to the advertising agency to say that this had been requested and that we would be redacting the commercial terms because they were not in dispute.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Should Mr. Lynch not have-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch

The question was framed as whether there had been editorial interference from the commercial client.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Should Mr. Lynch not have distanced himself from the redaction process? He had involvement in the production, did he not?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes but the question that was put-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does he believe it was appropriate for him to decide what was redacted and what was not?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I am in a different role now. I am working within RTÉ.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I know that but this related to a prior engagement Mr. Lynch had with RTÉ. Does he believe it was appropriate for him to been involved in this?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

Yes, I do believe it was appropriate. I would also say that-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I am not so sure it was.

Mr. Adrian Lynch

To answer the Deputy's question, the question put to us was whether there had been editorial influence on the part of the commercial partner. That is the question we answered by showing, with redactions, all parts of the contract I have referred to.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

On 16 July, when Geraldine O'Leary stated that Soho House was required for meetings, did Mr. Lynch know that no meetings were taking place there?

Mr. Adrian Lynch

I was not aware that RTÉ had an account with Soho House.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Griffin is over time.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I will ask very quickly whether the recruitment freeze applies to the 9 a.m. slot on RTÉ Radio 1?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

If there are to be any exceptions to the recruitment freeze for critical organisational roles, they will have to come to the leadership team. They will be by exception only.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

When did the evaluation process for Montrose begin?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Before I took up the post in summer, I was involved in some discussions with the then executive about future strategy.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I raised this with the chair on 19 April. Did it occur-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It has been going on for way longer than that. There was an attempt to sell some of the land a few years-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

On 19 April, the chair confirmed to this committee that the site had not been valued. Is Mr. Bakhurst now saying-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It has not been valued, as I have said to the Deputy.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

When did the process that is now under way start?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The whole process of looking-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was it Mr. Bakhurst himself-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am sorry; can I answer the question? The Deputy is firing lots of questions and I would like to try to answer them.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

That is my job.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It is my job to answer them, if that is all right.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

If Mr. Bakhurst could but I am trying to elicit answers and I am not really getting them.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay gentlemen-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

When did the process start? Was it Mr. Bakhurst himself who initiated the process of valuation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

On what exactly?

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The Montrose campus.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It depends what the Deputy means by "the process". The sale of the land has been under consideration since I was here last. It has been under constant consideration. It was actually considered as part of the last strategy process, before I arrived. I believe it was made clear that this was not something the Government wanted RTÉ to do. It is definitely part of the future strategy. I have asked for an updated evaluation of the land, as I have explained.

An Cathaoirleach

We will conclude on that. I have to move on. I call on Deputy Dillon. The floor is his. He has ten minutes.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will start with the decision not to release the salaries of the top 100 earners, given that RTÉ is publicly funded. Will the witnesses elaborate on the specific general data protection regulation, GDPR, constraints RTÉ faces in this regard and how they hinder the transparency the public is demanding through RTÉ's publication of these details?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I can take that question, if it helps. What has been provided is the top 100 salaries on an anonymised basis, following issues we had with certain individuals who were unhappy with publication. As I have said, we sought external advice. One of the questions we asked was about weighing the public interest in transparency against individual rights. The view taken in that regard was that, because RTÉ had provided a list of the salaries without names, there was no public interest in disclosing the individual names. The advice also considered the broader legislative framework in the context of freedom of information legislation. It also considered the issue of consent because we had previously been asked in a meeting of this committee whether we could ask the top earning 100 staff members. As I have previously stated, the advice was that such consent would not be sufficient.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What is the difference between this and publishing details of the top ten earners and the salaries of the executive management? Could a middle ground not be found with regard to the top 100 earners allowing these details to be published?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Perhaps I can help the Deputy with that. Providing details of executive salaries has been discussed and it is absolutely agreed that this is the right thing to do and that the director general will do that annually.

With regard to the top 100, what we tried to do was to give as much information as possible, as in breaking them down, even though they were anonymised.

Deputy Alan Dillon

The public demand transparency on its financial dealings. What I am trying to understand is how RTÉ weighs up the GDPR concerns against the public demand for transparency. Why were they not published?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I think it is very difficult because-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

RTÉ is a publicly funded company, separate from any private company.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I equally think that we have to respect the rights of individuals and their privacy.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Did you speak to each of the 100 top earners?

Ms Eimear Cusack

No.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, we did not, and that was based on the advice that we received.

Deputy Alan Dillon

So you took a unilateral decision.

Ms Paula Mullooly

No, it was not a unilateral decision. In fairness, it was based on advice. We have given the detail of the salaries being paid. The only thing that is not in the public domain is individuals’ names. That would be a significant thing to put into the public domain - it really would.

Deputy Alan Dillon

In what context? We are talking about the current crisis that RTÉ is facing.

Ms Paula Mullooly

In terms of the rights of those individuals. Let us be fair. All of us here know that we have been the subject of a certain amount of public vilification in the context of what is happening in RTÉ. To put 100 names of RTÉ employees into the public domain and subject them to that would be wrong, in my view.

Deputy Alan Dillon

With regard to the interim funding, can Mr. Bakhurst provide an overview of RTÉ's current financial situation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I can, and I might bring in Mr. Fives to give the details on that. Our current financial situation is that we were predicting a loss for this financial year. We have the cash reserves to cover that but the cash reserves will be under severe pressure from the kind of hole that we have now from the television licence. Mr. Fives can give some more detail.

Mr. Mike Fives

We budgeted for a deficit of in and around €7 million. Obviously, we have had a significant drop in licence fee sales so our current estimate at the current rate of 30% would be the €21 million that we spoke about. That would be a deficit of in and around €28 million. Obviously, there are actions that we are taking. Commercial revenues are trading quite well, so I think that will be a modest contribution. There are initiatives that we have undertaken to freeze new hires and to look at discretionary spending, outside broadcasts, OBs, and travel. The level of coverage that we are going to be able to provide will obviously have to reduce, whether that is the number of people who travel to Donnybrook, and they may have to come in over Teams. It is all of these things that we are going to have to do and slightly change the model to close some of that gap.

RTÉ has a lot of fixed costs. Some 50% of our costs are staff costs; in the 2022 annual report, that was 51%.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How much does that equate to?

Mr. Mike Fives

That would have been €174 million in staff costs. On the other costs, commissioned programmes are €44 million for last year, acquired is another €25 million and sports and other copyrights are another €25 million. That is 80% that is relatively fixed, so it is really the other items around production, travel and outside broadcasts. That will close some of that gap but we will not be able to close all of the gap.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Given recent reports, how close is RTÉ to reaching its lending cap?

Mr. Mike Fives

At the current run rate, we have until well out into next year but it all depends on what happens with the licence fee sales and how the public react to that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How does RTÉ intend to manage its debt to ensure it does not default on any of its obligations?

Mr. Mike Fives

That is where we need to manage our costs and review everything - the production model and all of the content that we are offering. As Mr. Bakhurst mentioned, our initial strategy is around a hiring freeze and around production, but if no solution is found, whether that is an increase in sales or interim funding, we will obviously need to cut back on spend. It is the non-committed spend where we will be able to do that, whether that is commissioned programmes or the level of output that we have in news. It is all of these things that are up for-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

I ask the director general if RTÉ has a backup plan or contingency plan if the interim funding falls short of what is anticipated.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are working on next year but the scale of this financial challenge is such that, as Mr. Fives has just explained, a significant amount of our cost is set costs and people so we have limited room for manoeuvre. As I explained earlier, the last thing I want to do is bring in compulsory redundancies but voluntary redundancies also have a cost attached to them so we have limited levers to pull. We are working on a contingency plan but I think it is safe to say that the size of the hole in licence fee income is extremely difficult to address on our own.

Deputy Alan Dillon

What has RTÉ forecast in relation to the interim funding that will be required?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We have forecast €21 million for this year, which would give us a degree of breathing space into next year while we work on this plan.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will move on to the Mazars report into the barter account. Deputy Griffin previously touched on this. Mazars noted that it found no obvious benefit to RTÉ from using the barter agencies. Does RTÉ agree with that assessment?

Mr. Mike Fives

In terms of revenue, no. This is additional revenue that we would not have earned. The reason we engage with these three barter agencies is that this involves different commercial partners that you would not necessarily get through the regular big six agencies in Ireland. I think what Mazars is referring to there is in terms of the purchase of goods. There is not necessarily a saving to be made for RTÉ through the purchase of goods and services. I would agree with that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will touch upon the funds for events and perks such as trips to the rugby World Cup or to the Champions League coming from public and commercial revenues. How does RTÉ justify expenses as being in the public interest in that regard? Second, the report also highlights that certain key personnel had the power to make purchases without formal documentation. What has changed subsequent to the Mazars report?

Mr. Mike Fives

People can no longer spend through the barter account. That is the biggest change we have made. Any spend in RTÉ now has to go through the regular purchasing process. Someone has to have a requisition, a purchase order, PO, and approval. That is the major change. These things cannot happen now.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Is there any internal investigation or consequences for those who made purchases during the past decade that contradicted RTÉ's ethos or its obligation with regard to the proper use of public money?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No. There is no internal investigation into that but a number of those people are no longer with the organisation. What we have done is looked at the issues involved. We have tightened up the guidelines and looked at the Mazars report. Every single recommendation in that report, where we needed to take action, we have taken action on those areas to tighten it up further. We are ensuring this cannot happen again.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I will finish on the staff allowances. We read revelations that RTÉ paid more than €4 million in allowances to staff last year. Could Ms Cusack give a breakdown of these allowances and justify their necessity, especially in light of the current financial situation? What steps is RTÉ taking to review this?

Ms Eimear Cusack

There are a couple of things. First, there are a myriad of allowances in RTÉ. As part of the broader review we are doing, and I would include Willis Towers Watson in this, all of those have to be reviewed. They have to be reviewed in the context of discussion with individuals, the TUG, staff and management representatives. A lot of those allowances are contractual so it is not something you can go ramstam into and say "We want to review this". We are not going to do that. We have to do it by way of consultation in the broader discussion around reform.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How does RTÉ evaluate each employee who is allocated these allowances? Are they based on performance reviews, or what criteria does RTÉ set?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Is this for all of the allowances?

Deputy Alan Dillon

Yes.

Ms Eimear Cusack

As I said, the car allowance is a misnomer in terms of what it is called. All the allowances are related to remuneration as non-pensionable allowances. They in the main, or in all cases, would be contractual. All the other allowances are for specific activities that individuals carry out. We have 1,100 employees who receive allowances. Some receive more than one allowance depending on their activity.

As we look to try to simplify the organisation, we have to take a pragmatic approach in terms of how it should look in the future. For example, we have 13 annual leave plans. Going forward, there should be a level playing pitch. We have to consult and work with people, and bring RTÉ staff with us.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Okay.

Mr. Mike Fives

It is important to add that many of the people who receive allowances are the lower paid members of staff at RTÉ. The focus has been on car allowances and so on, but, for example, people working in moving, staging and so on are those who receive allowances for shifts, etc. The allowances are across the piece. As Ms Cusack said, they are very over-complicated. We need to look at how we can simplify that.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Thank you. My final question Is to the chair, Ms Ní Raghallaigh. Regarding the Deloitte reports withheld from the audit and risk committee, as identified in the Grant Thornton report, has it been identified who withheld the reports?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

We have identified that they were not passed on-----

Deputy Alan Dillon

By whom?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

-----by the chief financial officer, who had the ultimate responsibility.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Who was that?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

A number of reports had not been passed on.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Can I ask who withheld them?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

The chief financial officer, Richard Collins, had ultimate responsibility.

Deputy Alan Dillon

If they were passed on, would we, hypothetically, have been in a very different position? Does Ms Ní Raghallaigh accept that?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I was not there but, hypothetically, I believe as a board we would have questioned that. On the other hand, Deloitte should have sent the report to the to the chair of the audit and risk committee at the same time. There are simple procedures that should have happened. I am very confident that will not happen again.

An Cathaoirleach

I call on Senator Marie Sherlock. She has ten minutes.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the members of the board and the executive for attending the meeting and preparing all the documents that we received yesterday. Mr. Bakhurst has to grapple with the past and plan for the future. Has he had any co-operation from Dee Forbes or Jim Jennings in the course of his work since he took up his role?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I had co-operation from Dee Forbes in the first couple of weeks after I was appointed, but I had not started the job. I came over here and had conversations with her before all this was known. It was much more about the strategy and organisation. None of this had been uncovered at that point. I have had no contact with Dee Forbes subsequently.

I have been in contact with Jim Jennings. Similarly, when I started he was there at some of the strategy days.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Since the-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Since the crisis started, I have spoken to Jim Jennings to find out how he is because his health is not good, which explains why he has not come before the committee. I have been in contact with him partly because, to be fair to him, he wants to come before the committees and talk but he has been given advice from his doctors not to do so. I have said to him that he needs to listen to medical advice.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I do not want to intrude on any of that. To be clear, does Mr. Bakhurst still have questions that he needs answered by him in order to-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I have many questions I would like answered.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Okay. I want to ask about the Resolve report. A huge feature of everything that has been spoken about involves changing the culture and building trust. The report was produced in March 2020. It referred to serious issues in current affairs, women not feeling valued and respected, staff feeling defeated, women not getting the same opportunities as men and a lack of transparency with regard to the appointment process. Obviously, individuals were appointed without open competition. We have heard from Ms Cusack and I would like to hear from Mr. Bakhurst. Does he believe the recommendations have been implemented?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Not all of them. I have implemented one or two specifically myself.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Ms Cusack might give us more detail. I understand there have been no meetings with the trade union group or formal engagement on foot of the report. Obviously, RTÉ resisted at every opportunity the publication of the report.

It was only the Information Commissioner who ended up publishing the report. Could Ms Cusack set out in more detail how that has been implemented and then I will perhaps come back to Mr. Bakhurst?

Ms Eimear Cusack

Yes, the Resolve report was published in a redacted format. That was to protect the identity of individuals.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I do not mean to rush Ms Cusack. There are three recommendations. Will she talk me through how they have been implemented please?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I need to talk in broad terms. The new managing editor has been working closely with staff. I have not met the trade union group specifically. However, he has been working with the staff. As an organisation we are positive about diversity and the work we want to do in the area of diversity. The work is ongoing and things will continue to change. There have been vacancies and appointments based on open competitions. That is how we do our business in RTÉ, in an open and transparent way. There is more work to do. The outcome of the report was concerning. Changes have been made, some of which were fundamental changes.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Will Mr. Bakhurst tell the committee what is the one recommendation that has been implemented?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

It was not a recommendation. In reading the report, there was something clear I needed to deal with. It involved an individual. I do not think it is fair to go further than that.

Senator Marie Sherlock

That is okay. Can I be clear? Have staff appointments been made without open competition since RTÉ received the report in March 2022? I am conscious that Mr. Bakhurst is only in the door. Will Ms Cusack answer that question?

Ms Eimear Cusack

We have run 114 competitions in the year to date, both internal and external public competitions.....

Senator Marie Sherlock

No, there was one without competition.

Ms Eimear Cusack

One, perhaps two, appointments have been made without a competition for business reasons.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Okay.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Can I pick up on that? We will not have any appointments for the time being because of what I announced today. Since I have been here, there has been a competition for every appointment I am aware of in the organisation. That is the standard process now. I have met with the unions. Current affairs did come up in those meetings. We discussed the matter and they are aware of the action I am taking.

Senator Marie Sherlock

On the bogus self-employment issue RTÉ has, there are 32 appeals, as I think has been documented. We have a situation where RTÉ, a semi-State company, is fighting the decisions made by the Department of Social Protection and every time RTÉ walks into the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, it brings legal counsel with it. How much is this costing? Is it acceptable that RTÉ is going to the effort and cost of challenging the decision by the scope section of the Department of Social Protection?

Ms Eimear Cusack

The scope section began its investigations into PRSI insurability in RTÉ in September 2020. At the time, we were told that it would look at 340 individuals. That number increased to 500. For context, I need to explain the process. To date, 144 investigations have been completed. We have received 118 decisions, of which 80 were deemed to be class A PRSI and 38 class S PRSI. A number of appeals were then lodged and at the moment 32 appeals are active. We have been clear in respect of the appeals. We are co-operating in full with the Department. We are only appealing cases where we believe there is an error of fact or.....

Senator Marie Sherlock

Two of the appeals have already been unsuccessful. How much is RTÉ spending on those appeals?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I do not have that figure.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can get it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

We will get it for the committee.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Please. The point needs to be made that it is unacceptable.....

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

This is something else I have had to get my head around. It is an ongoing process which is eating up an enormous amount of time for Ms Cusack's colleagues. We have to deal with it properly. Frankly, some of the cases were brought to my attention. It is right that we are dealing with them because we need to regularise this. We are working closely with the scope section. I have a meeting with it in the next few weeks.

On the actual appeals themselves, which I asked about, these are taken on very narrow grounds. The presumption is to accept the findings unless there is a point of law or a point of fact. We can get the costs to the committee if that would be helpful to it.

Ms Eimear Cusack

I have just one more thing to add, which is on the people who are being investigated - whose PRSI is being investigated. In some cases, these are people who left RTÉ some time ago. There are also people who are employees today but who at some point in years gone by had provided services as contractors. This goes back as far as the 1980s. It is a very long process but, as I say, we do not appeal just for the sake of it.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank Ms Cusack. With regard to pay - and I know there has been a discussion with regard to the allowances - I heard Ms Cusack speak about how some of the allowances are contractual. Can I just ask about the extra responsibility and the personal allowances? Are they for the most part included in people's contracts or otherwise?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I will come back to the Senator with a definitive answer on this, but in the main, I would think that those ones would not be contractual.

Senator Marie Sherlock

So is it the case that they are discretionary?

Ms Eimear Cusack

They are not discretionary. They are for somebody, as Mr. Bakhurst said, who has a substantive role and who may do something else on top of that for an additional period of time. They will get an allowance for that.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Does Ms Cusack think that lends itself to a lack of transparency? I am thinking in particular of the gender pay gap issue in RTÉ. Going back to the Resolve report, where some female members of staff are not feeling valued or indeed they are not getting the opportunities, does Ms Cusack think that system of allowances is perpetuating that divide between some workers?

Ms Eimear Cusack

I would not think so, but I could probably answer the Senator's question even more truthfully if I were to look at the individuals against whom those allowances are allocated and then do a gender breakdown. I could not answer that fully. I do not believe so. For example, in the case of shift allowances, there is a greater propensity of males who working in those areas where shift payments are made and overtime is worked. In other areas, there is a greater propensity of females. Maybe I can get the gender breakdown, if that would help, and send that in.

Senator Marie Sherlock

For the record, allowances are obviously important depending on the job, but there is the issue of where they lend themselves to a lack of transparency.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

In my previous experience when I was running the news and current affairs department, I used to review everyone's salary in the news and current affairs department annually. I had the information on their salary and their allowance and I could look at them comparatively. During my time there, I could see that there were one or two women who were being disproportionately underpaid and we corrected their salaries. Therefore, there is a review process. I know that Deirdre McCarthy, who runs the news and current affairs department, is very hot on this. This is an area on which she focuses a lot and she has done so in recent appointments as well, in fairness, as well as on gender equality. There is a process there, but it is not helped by the complexity of the allowances.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Can I ask about the negotiation with Ryan Tubridy and the contract or deal that was on the table? At the meeting of the remuneration committee on 16 August, there was obviously a discussion about it. One of the members of that committee, Mr. Conor Murphy, suggested that it should go to the board. I have two questions. First, should something like that not have automatically gone to the board? I would like to hear from Mr. Murphy as well, please, if he is still here.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes. He is on the line.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Indeed. Can I get Mr. Bakhurst's own response to that first?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Mr. Murphy can speak for the remuneration committee, but I think it is entirely appropriate that all presenters' salaries will now go to the remuneration committee and that they are properly tested. We had a good and robust discussion about the basis on which we decided to make the offer at that stage. I should say that in the end there was a really good discussion with the full board. Mr. Murphy can speak to this, but from my recollection, it was not a matter of the particulars of the offer. It was about the decision itself about whether to bring Mr. Tubridy back. This was significant enough to the organisation that Mr. Murphy and the chair, who is also on the remuneration committee, felt that it should be properly discussed with the full board. The full board is here and we had a full discussion about it.

Senator Marie Sherlock

That is okay. Can Mr. Murphy give his own thoughts?

Mr. Conor Murphy

Yes. I would echo that. The day before we had a board update as well. We had discussed how this was on the agenda for the remuneration committee. A few other board members had indicated that they would like to give input on that and hear more of the details.

Once we had the discussion at the remuneration committee, which was excellently prepared by Mr. Bakhurst and at which we went through a lot of questions and detail, I then proposed that we bring it to the rest of the board for an update. We were having a call the next day with the board anyway. I felt, based on the requests of other people on the board and because of the nature of the decisions in terms of the focus across all the news cycles, that involving the full board would have been a prudent move.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank Mr. Shortt.

I have a very last question. I am conscious that we have a number of board members here today who, apart from Mr. Kehoe, have not had an opportunity to have an input. Could each of them briefly set out how serious they believe the financial situation is for RTÉ now? With the benefit of a number of weeks of Mr. Bakhurst's leadership, to what extent do they believe things can be turned around? We all have our personal views here but the board members are the custodians of the future of RTÉ in some ways. Perhaps Mr. Shortt will start and we will work from there.

Mr. Robert Shortt

It is obviously a very serious situation. The announcement today about the hiring freeze and the pause on discretionary expenditure is obviously something that staff will be concerned about, and that is completely understandable.

With regard to representing staff, it has been a tough couple of months. There has been a lot of anger, obviously, and a lot of incredulity and embarrassment. The concern is really where this goes from here. Although I understand how this is going to be characterised as us coming here with our hands out, it is, as far as staff are concerned, also about knowing where we stand, where we will stand in the future and what sort of organisation people will, hopefully, be able to continue to work for. It is absolutely correct that the members here have the opportunity to call everybody to account. That is their job and I respect that.

To get back to answering Deputy Griffin's question, we did ask a lot of questions as board members about Toy Show The Musical. We did not ask enough questions and – I am speaking for myself now – we did not take enough cognisance of the risks involved in the undertaking. That is a matter of profound regret for me. However, I ask the Deputy to consider the language he uses around the licence fee. As he said himself, it is what we have at the moment and we should take it very seriously. We should take the payment of the licence fee very seriously. I was taken aback by the Deputy's description comparing it to buying a round of drinks in a pub.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I said I would rather buy a round of drinks. I will be renewing my licence fee and I encourage everyone to do it.

Mr. Robert Shortt

I am very glad to hear that-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Sorry, but it is not the politicians who are at fault here. You need to own your own mess here.

Mr. Robert Shortt

I have and I will own whatever actions-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Do not go throwing this back on this side of the House.

Mr. Robert Shortt

Excuse me, Deputy, but it is very important-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

-----because that attempt is beneath you, I must say.

Mr. Robert Shortt

Excuse me, Deputy, but it is a very important point.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Griffin should allow Mr. Shortt to make his comment.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

The fall-off in the licence fee – the €50 million hole – is RTÉ's doing.

Mr. Robert Shortt

This is why it was difficult to answer the Deputy the last time. He keeps interrupting. I am perfectly willing to own whatever mistakes we made, but I also think that paying the licence fee is an extremely serious matter-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Absolutely.

Mr. Robert Shortt

-----and should be taken seriously by everybody, particularly members of the committee.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

It is, but Mr. Shortt can understand why people do not want to pay it. They have no confidence in RTÉ. That is the problem, and it is RTÉ's mess. It still does not get that.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, Senator Sheridan-----

Mr. Robert Shortt

Sorry, but I have made it very clear that I am willing to accept whatever shortcomings we were responsible for along the way. I remind the Deputy that we did set this ship afloat-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Mr. Shortt is trying to blame someone else.

Mr. Robert Shortt

When the irregularities were discovered, we proceeded despite knowing what damage was going to happen to the organisation. The Deputy is right that the licence fee collapse – it is fair to describe it as that – happened after all of that, but I stand over what we did and am willing to take responsibility for the mistakes that may have been made along the way; however, I do think paying your licence fee is extremely serious-----

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I do, too. That is why we are here.

Mr. Robert Shortt

-----and I do not think that comparing it to-----

An Cathaoirleach

I have to ask both of you to conclude.

Mr. Robert Shortt

-----buying a round of drinks is appropriate.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does Mr. Shortt not understand that the reason people are not renewing their licences is that they have no confidence in RTÉ in respect of where their money is going?

An Cathaoirleach

Okay, Deputy Griffin. I have given Senator Sherlock more-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

Could I just clarify? I wanted to ask each of the board members.

An Cathaoirleach

I am sorry but the Senator should have started with that.

Senator Marie Sherlock

Deputy Griffin interrupted.

An Cathaoirleach

No.

Senator Marie Sherlock

With the greatest respect-----

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Sherlock-----

Senator Marie Sherlock

I appreciate that.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

A charge has been made against me.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I would like to hear from the other board members. I am the last speaker, apart from you, a Chathaoirligh.

An Cathaoirleach

I intend to ask questions of the board because I am mindful that members have been here and have not really had an opportunity to contribute. Senator Sherlock has exceeded her time. If the matter is so important, she should have raised it at the beginning of her contribution. I have given as much latitude as I can. The Senator has had much more than ten minutes, as I think the clerk would agree. It is now my turn and as my questions follow on from the Senator's, she will get answers. The witnesses can address Senator Sherlock's questions when answering mine if they feel they want to respond.

I do not have much to say. I want to hear from each of the board members. I have two brief questions for each of them, starting with Mr. Hickey and Mr. Murphy. I am conscious they have been dialling in to the meeting from outside. They have been very patient. For how long have the witnesses been on the board? That is my first question. My second question relates to their working relationship. Ms Doherty made it very clear to the committee and the public that she was completely in the dark and had no idea what was going on, which is a real shame, during whatever her term was, whether five or seven years. Do the witnesses concur with that view?

The third issue is whether the witnesses see change. That is really important. As has been alluded to, they are the custodians of this organisation. We have a body of work to do collectively. I will start with Mr. Hickey.

Mr. Daire Hickey

I have been on the board since July 2021. I think what Ms Doherty was getting at is that there are a number of aspects that the board was not aware of. The barter account is one, as is the Renault deal. I have seen a huge change. Ms Ní Raghallaigh pointed to a lot of it. We have been very impressed with Mr. Bakhurst since he has come in and with what he has achieved in the past eight weeks. It is very clear that we are all aware of the situation that RTÉ is in. We are aware of the failings or mistakes that we have made as a board and we are very committed to change. We are all committed to restoring trust in the organisation and putting it on a stronger financial footing.

An Cathaoirleach

I will ask Mr. Murphy the same question. How long has he been on the board? Does he concur with what Ms Doherty said and can he point to seismic change in the collective working relationship with the executive?

Mr. Conor Murphy

Yes. I joined the board in March 2020 just before Covid kicked off. In terms of the working relationship, I agree with Ms Doherty that we were always having to ask a lot of questions. The way I would characterise it is that I was always trying to pull information out of the organisation. We were definitely in the dark in terms of the barter account. That was a big shock and surprise. Kudos to the audit and risk committee for bringing that to the board as quickly as possible, and for all the work that has happened since then.

The change is apparent in the actions that have been taken on the back of the revelations and all of the reports that have been done. In particular, Mr. Bakhurst coming in has brought a really open, transparent, collaborative and proactive level of engagement with the board in which he is pushing a lot more information to us. We have had a lot more meetings. I definitely feel he is playing a fantastic role and the interim leadership team has really begun to drive change.

I think a lot more legacy issues will come out in the third Grant Thornton report and all the other reports that we will have to deal with. As we look towards the future, I am very excited to hear more from Mr. Bakhurst and the team on their strategy plan and how we can help investigate that and ask the questions to help to toughen that up so that we can collaborate with the leadership team to help the strategy plan to be as strong as possible when it comes back to the committee and the Oireachtas for review.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank Mr. Murphy. I am glad to hear the cultural change is very much coming through. I ask Dr. Mathews to respond.

Dr. P.J. Mathews

I was appointed in October 2014. I agree with Ms Doherty's analysis. One of the important things for a board collectively is that it needs to know the important information, specifically information about strategy, risky initiatives and big decisions being made by the organisation - what is going to happen next and what the big decisions are. When I was before the Committee of Public Accounts I said this was a source of deep disappointment to me as a board member. I am, with Ms O'Leary, the member of the longest standing and I take the job seriously. I am a public servant and I take it very seriously.

I enter into board business in good faith. All of the stuff that has happened has, as I said, been deeply troubling and disappointing. I see change. I have a lot of confidence in our chair who has a great track record in broadcasting in TG4 as a financial controller and our new director general who has amazing experience in terms of corporate governance and editorial and has really steadied the ship. As a board, we have worked hard since all of this broke out to try to address the issues and co-operate with the Government review processes that are ongoing. I certainly will do everything I can in the short time I have left on the board to re-establish trust and help rebuild the organisation to the best of my ability.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you very much.

Mr. David Harvey

I thank the Chair. I looked at this from a slightly different perspective. I have been on the board since September 2021 and I felt the information we received at the board was presented as a matter of course. It was brought in with no solutions. I find that troubling.

An Cathaoirleach

Were you asked for your opinion or were you more told what was happening?

Mr. David Harvey

I found it very troubling at the outset that information was presented on a monthly basis as a fait accompli. I did not think there was a culture of discussion or interrogation. That is the way I felt. I also felt, in particular in terms of things I was prepared to let time their way out because I knew there would be a new administration running the company, that there was no point in shouting into a canyon where I might not be listened to. Other board members felt the same as I did about this.

It is regrettable that we have got to a stage whereby we are having meetings like this. There was a fantastic meeting a few months ago where we talked about the future strategy of the company. People were examining the issue that RTÉ is in a rapidly changing media landscape and has not been able to react as quickly as other companies or react in a way as to make the media landscape more relevant to younger audiences in particular. Its revenue base has suffered and now its revenue basis is suffering in a different way.

There are moves afoot. I have every confidence in the programming side. When we get around to it, I think we will have a proper sales approach in the company. The finances have been taken in hand. There is good leadership at board level. The chair and the chief executive are excellent. RTÉ has a good fighting chance, provided that we get a funding structure in place and know what the product is and what the company is going forward. They are all critical.

An Cathaoirleach

You feel that the board is being given all of the information now and is being unable to do the job. My sense is that-----

Mr. David Harvey

I do, 100%. If it does not get that information, it goes looking for it. We simply cannot allow that to be left to chance. It was left to chance before. In a big organisation with a financial controller in every division and group financial controller, surely the thing was being run properly. We can clearly see that in certain places there were massive inadequacies. In a company that cannot be turned around and change quickly, when things all go wrong they go horribly wrong. That is really what has happened. RTÉ has a great chance. It is a great organisation. It has a great product. There are great people working there. Once it knows what it is going forward, under proper leadership I believe the company will do very well.

An Cathaoirleach

Okay. That is heartening. May I come back to Mr. Shortt?

Mr. Robert Shortt

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

Do you feel that, regarding the board, there is a huge cultural shift in terms of the collaborative approach? Do you agree with the assessment of Moya Doherty that you knew nothing and could do nothing and things were all happening in silos? Do you now feel a huge change within the board means the public can have confidence in what is happening now in RTÉ?

Mr. Robert Shortt

I am not sure if I would agree all the way with what you have quoted Moya Doherty as having said. It depends on what specifically you are talking about. There was absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the tripartite arrangement. It still makes me feel extremely disappointed, uncomfortable and angry that that is what happened. I will try to keep my comments brief because I have probably had quite a lot to say prior to this.

An Cathaoirleach

I encourage you to say what you want to say. This is your opportunity.

Mr. Robert Shortt

I definitely see a sea change in the board that I am working on now compared with the board that I joined in May 2018, when I was elected. There is a huge level of detail in how the board does its business in terms of the new checks and balances and processes that have been put in place. I think it is a work in progress and I still think we are uncovering things. There are obviously still more reports that are under way. I am sure there is going to be more changes as a result of whatever those reports come up with. I do think there has been an awful lot more detailed work. That is the kind of hard board corporate governance detail that we need to have in place to ensure that RTÉ is run properly.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Ms Howard the same question. When she joined the board, what did she feel at that time? Did she feel Ms Doherty accurately reflected how the whole board was feeling and this thing of working in isolation almost? Has Ms Howard seen change?

Ms Aideen Howard

I am a relatively new appointment so I actually have never had any experience of Ms Doherty's time at all. I was appointed on 29 November on the same day as the new chair. We started at the same time, so my experience of the board is as you see it now. However, I would say that over the last months there has been a very noticeable change in the quality and content of the information and the kind of interrogation that we are undertaking. That has been very evident in the recent weeks, since Mr. Bakhurst's appointment. I think it is very clear to us that the principles of corporate governance which we are tasked with upholding are going to require a huge amount of new energy and a huge amount of trust building so that we can happily say that we are both accountable and responsible for the fairness and transparency of the organisation. That is our role as a board. The point of all of that is to safeguard the work that Mr. Shortt has been talking about, which is actually to allow the work of the amazing teams and talent in RTÉ to be seen on air and for the public to have that benefit. I think that is something that this board is taking immensely seriously and would be proud to do it.

An Cathaoirleach

I wish you the best of luck with your term on the RTÉ board. Ms O'Leary, can I ask you the same question? You have been there quite some time, I assume.

Ms Anne O'Leary

I have. I was appointed first by the Department in October 2014 and then reappointed after five years, which is very unusual, but because of Covid, there was no availability of other directors to come on board. I think it is way too long to be on any State board. By the way, at the end of this, if the Department or the chair decides that it is time for me to step down, I will very happily do that.

I do agree with the Deputy who mentioned earlier that there should be a chartered accountant on the audit and risk committee. For the first five years I had an exceptional member of the committee, Shane Naughton, who was at the time the chief financial officer for the Financial Times.

An Cathaoirleach

And he was there for five years. Is that what you said, Ms O'Leary?

Ms Anne O'Leary

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

So you have only been two years without him.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Four.

An Cathaoirleach

Four. I beg your pardon.

Ms Anne O'Leary

Mr. Naughton was a member for the first five years and he was absolutely fantastic. He interrogated the internal auditors and did a very good job, so I missed him terribly.

With regard to what Ms Doherty said, I agree with her completely. I think that now, though, looking on at the new leadership team and the powerful leadership I am seeing from Mr. Bakhurst, the determination, the clarity he has got and the energy is absolutely fantastic, and I believe we are in a great position. If you ask whether we are in a financially precarious position, I do not think anybody is questioning that, but I think if anybody can do it, Mr. Bakhurst and his new leadership team can.

An Cathaoirleach

In terms of the audit and risk committee which you sit on, there are a number of subcommittees within RTÉ: the remuneration committee, there is audit and risk, there is strategy, there is audience, and there is digital and technology. Has there been any change in terms of the subcommittees and that lack of opportunity to meet? Has that changed?

Ms Anne O'Leary

It has changed in that there are more committees and we are getting reviews from the different committees, which are brought up at the board. One of the things that is important is the ARC. It says that the audit and risk committee should meet four times a year. I absolutely did that. In 2020, it was seven; in 2021, it was eight; in 2022, it was nine; and in 2023, it was 15 because of the crisis. Typically, we were reacting to either an internal audit report that happened to have gone well. There certainly was a great deal of work on the audit and risk. I thoroughly enjoyed it but, when I look back, I should have, with the remuneration committee, said to the chair, "Look, we are not meeting often enough."

I take my guilt on that side.

An Cathaoirleach

We will come to Mr. Ruane next. How long has he been on the board? Will he describe to us the then and the now?

Mr. Jonathan Ruane

I joined the board in April last year so I have been on it for approximately 18 months. About half of that time was under the former director general and the former chair. That is not much experience with the former regime. However, I will say that it seemed there were a lot of pressures on the organisation at leadership level. Those pressures have not changed. If anything, they have probably got worse. The old way of looking at things was really about trying to control information and to resolve these pressures and frictions internally. The big sea change I see and what is different under the new regime is that, while those same pressures are there and have probably got worse, a world view is now starting to emerge and to be pushed that these things should be resolved by engaging and being open about them. We have nothing to hide so let us talk about all of these problems instead of saying "Leave it to us; we will figure it out in a room and come back when it is resolved." It is just two different world views. The pressures are still fundamentally there, however.

Senator Sherlock asked about the financial situation. It is precarious for sure. Absolutely. If our organisation was a normal company, the balance sheet we have might shore us up but it is not a normal company. We do not have liquid assets so, while the balance sheet might look good, in effect, it is not much use to us right now, today. To look at our income statement, it is the situation that many of our costs cannot be controlled very easily. I would also reiterate some of the points Mr. Harvey made. We talk a lot about internal matters, such as the culture and so on, which is correct and right but I am concerned that we might not resolve this funding issue. It is really about output. We have already talked about how digital services are going to be curtailed. There are not many people in Ireland who would look at the RTÉ Player and not say that it needs more resources. That is one of the main reasons I joined the board. I started the digital committee so that we could look at problems like this. The reality is that, if we are now more constrained on resources, we have to think about the competitive environment in which we are operating. RTÉ has a dozen people, give or take, who you might call software engineers. Netflix has 2,500. The reality of our ability to change the culture has to be mapped onto our ability to compete in the market and to deliver services for people. If we do not resolve these funding issues and the cultural issues, which are absolutely obvious, there is competition out there looking for the same eyeballs.

An Cathaoirleach

The comments of board members, whom I was really anxious to hear from today, so far suggest that there has been a cultural shift. I thank Mr. Ruane. I will come to Mr. Kehoe. How long has he been a member of the board?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

My fifth anniversary will be 8 October, when I will leave the board.

An Cathaoirleach

How long has he been deputy chair of the board?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I have been deputy chair since 22 November 2019.

An Cathaoirleach

Due to ill health and that kind of thing, Ms Doherty was absent from meetings and so on for some time. Did Mr. Kehoe take the chair at that point?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I have just gone through the minutes and, over that period, I chaired three board meetings, one each on 23 January 2020, 22 October 2020 and 21 October 2021.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Mr. Kehoe raise any concerns about remuneration or the lack of meetings of the remuneration committee?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

No, I did not and I regret that.

An Cathaoirleach

Would he do things differently now?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

Of course I would. The Cathaoirleach was asking for thoughts. It is a case of what I would have done if I knew then what I know now. Everything the board did, we did in good faith and with the best interests of the organisation in mind. If you go through the minutes of the board's meetings, which are all publicly available on the RTÉ website, and the minutes of the audit and risk committee, the programme committee and the digital committee, you will see that an awful lot of questions were continually being asked. These related to financial modelling, the future strategy, the make-up of advertising and investment in digital. Perhaps some of the questions were not appropriate and perhaps we could have asked better questions but there was a continually inquisitive process ongoing. At times, I felt a level of frustration at the quality of the answers that were coming back.

An Cathaoirleach

Did Mr. Kehoe express that view?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I did, continually. As a small example, I tried to get written reports in advance, rather than verbal reports, and a level of documentation.

I will give an example that might contextualise the point the Cathaoirleach is trying to get at.

An Cathaoirleach

Briefly.

Mr. Ian Kehoe

I will be as quick as I can. In the aftermath of the 2019 strategic review, where it was decided and agreed that all of the top ten presenter earners would take a 15% pay cut, it was specifically asked at board level had each of the top ten taken it, and the answer that came back was “Yes”. I did not ask the question if there were top-ups through a tripartite agreement with a commercial partner, but there was a period of withholding information that I regret. Questions were asked. Sometimes we did not get the answers we required and sometimes the answers we got were simply incorrect.

As a final point, and it is the last time I will be addressing anyone in relation to RTÉ, I think it is really sad that when people look at RTÉ now, they look at this through a prism of flip-flops, Soho House or tripartite agreements. Going forward, I have confidence that under the leadership of the chair and the new DG, hopefully, we can bring it back to what RTÉ is, not just news and current affairs, which we look at, but what it does in terms of trying to promote the regions and tell the national story. We look at what RTÉ did during Covid, with “Home School Hub”, or where it tried to engage with different aspects of society. It is my real hope that, going forward, that is how we will look at RTÉ, not through flip-flops and Soho House.

An Cathaoirleach

I will pause Mr. Kehoe there. I have one final question. Mr. Kehoe is a central piece to the board, as deputy chair. It would be my understanding that the executive would have found it difficult in the past in terms of giving information to the board because of leaks. I am sure all of you, as we did, even got to read about the appointment of the DG. Leaks were coming from the board and, obviously, it would have undermined the executive entirely if that were to happen. As deputy chair, what would Mr. Kehoe say or how would he respond to that?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

The leaks were deeply disappointing, and I think Ms Ní Raghallaigh has addressed that matter in the past.

An Cathaoirleach

Does Mr. Kehoe think that would have affected how the executive could work in a meaningful way with the board?

Mr. Ian Kehoe

If you look at those leaks, that is in recent months and over the past year-----

An Cathaoirleach

And perhaps further back.

Mr. Ian Kehoe

Yes. At the same time, there is an obligation on the executive in any leadership team to provide information to the board or, otherwise, the board cannot fulfil its statutory duty.

An Cathaoirleach

Leaks are a different thing that compromise how the executive can fully operate. Would Mr. Kehoe agree? It would make it difficult for them to come forward with information and would make them hesitant, let us say.

Mr. Ian Kehoe

That is a question for them. Certainly, as a board member, to fulfil your duties as best you can, you need the information, and it is very difficult to do that if some of the information is withheld and some of the information just is not true.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one final question for Ms Ní Raghallaigh. I want to address that question of leaks because this has obviously been deeply destructive and harmful to RTÉ as an entity. Has Ms Ní Raghallaigh been able to address that?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Yes, I have. I took action, particularly during the time of Mr. Bakhurst's appointment. I took quite strong action. I frequently remind everybody at the top of every meeting about confidentiality. Everybody has signed up to the code of contact, or re-signed, if you know what I mean. I try to run the board in as open a way as possible and everybody understands that in order to be open, it is about trust among each other. We may, and we do, have robust discussion at all of our board meetings but a decision is taken and we all agree with it, and we speak as one voice after that.

An Cathaoirleach

I have one final question for Mr. Bakhurst, and Senator Cassells alluded to this point. We were told here very clearly by Mr. Tubridy that he had no issue paying the €150,000 back to RTÉ that he clearly had not done the work for, and that was regardless of whether he continued to work for RTÉ or not. I am not saying Mr. Bakhurst only half answered the question but I want to be clear: has that money been paid back or is it Mr. Bakhurst's understanding that it now will not be paid back?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The money has not been paid back. I think it is fair to say I have not had a further discussion with Mr. Tubridy about it since the discussions ended with him over the contract.

An Cathaoirleach

Thank you. Other members are offering. They have been very patient and good, and they have sat here all day. I cannot allow ten minutes for each and I will allow five, if that is okay. We will begin with Senator Timmy Dooley and then Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett. We may have two or three minutes for colleagues to come back in. We will do our best. I call Senator Dooley.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thank the Chair for giving me the opportunity.

The Chair's question solved a lot of it for me because I was going to suggest that members of the board could have an opportunity through my ten minutes-----

An Cathaoirleach

Please continue to ask them.

Senator Timmy Dooley

No, they have set out their stall. As I see it, the challenge that is facing both the board and the executive is that on the one hand, they have got to address what has happened. There is a whole series of reports and investigations under way that they have got to work with and participate in. At the same time, they have to try to put the wheels back on the bus. They have to try to show confidence in their ability to provide a public service media. They have to try to bring the trust of the staff back on board as well as the trust of the licence payer, the Government, etc., and that is a challenge. I would like to see a situation where the historical or legacy aspect is left to those various investigations that are under way, and that the board and the executive could concentrate far more seriously, with input from these committees, on what the future of public service media is, and what RTÉ's role is in that. That is where I would like to focus the witnesses' attention on.

I will go back to something that Ms Ní Raghallaigh said at the outset, and Mr. Bakhurst as well. It was a kind of a challenge to us, and it is a challenge to them and everybody else. They talked about difficult decisions that have to be taken that might not be popular. I would like to explore those with them if I could, and have the issues set out for us. For sure, there is a resistance to pay the licence. Mine is up at the end of the month, and I will pay it happily because I am still taking the content that RTÉ is producing. I am still consuming that at the same level. If anybody gave any kind of fair analysis of the way in which RTÉ journalism focused on the issues, they would have to rate it highly. There were one or two submissions here that questioned the number of times an individual's name was mentioned in the context of RTÉ versus other media.

RTÉ has held its executive and the indiscretions to account. As Mr. Kehoe and others have said, we have seen the best and the worst. We need to move on, and I would like the witnesses to paint for us the outlook or the horizon if we do not get an appropriate funding model in place.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I will leave it to Mr. Bakhurst to talk about the operational aspect. It does not take much to understand that we are in a very difficult position here. If one looks at it, this is an organisation that we have to restructure. If one was doing that in a normal situation, one would have a restructuring plan, take it to the shareholder, and discuss how it is costed and will be financed. That is why I am hoping that with this committee, and our own Minister of course, there will be collective responsibility taken for that. We have to have that honest discussion, come to a resolution on it and find a way to fund not just RTÉ, if it is a media fund, and we have to decide how that is shared out. We have to have that conversation sooner rather than later, and the onus is on the board, alongside Mr. Bakhurst and his team, to bring that forward. Operationally, I will leave it to Mr. Bakhurst.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the Senator for his insights on public service broadcasting over recent weeks and months. They have been extremely useful. He has characterised the position entirely accurately, and as an executive or leadership team, with the board, we are having to deal with various reports and situations of the past. Mr. Lynch has been doing a lot of that alongside me. There is an awful lot of time taken up, and rightly so, co-operating with the Government inquiries. It is going to be potentially six months until they conclude, and we need to be properly open with them and give them all the information they need. There is a lot of effort going into that.

There is a considerable amount of effort dealing with the current financial crisis. Then there is the really important prize, which is our vision as a public service media provider in Ireland, and how we best deliver that to all audiences.

It will be based on fantastic content for this country, an open, transparent and trusted way of operating and how we put public service values at the heart of that. The value of trusted, impartial and accurate news at the heart of any country is there for everyone to see. We see it around Europe from public service broadcasters. Alongside that are live sport, entertainment and events that bring the country together. We need to deliver that in a modern, efficient and transparent way. All I can do with the team is to carry on trying to rebuild the organisation and set out a vision in October, which I welcome the chance to come back and describe here in more detail when we have it.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I thank the Chair and committee for allowing me in on this discussion.

We are in a pretty grim and tragic situation. We are coming up to the budget, where I would like to argue – and will argue, despite all of this – that we are not putting enough public investment into arts and culture generally, including public service broadcasting. We are way below the European average for investment in those areas. The budget was cut last year, disgracefully in my opinion. We should be debating the need for more investment in arts, culture, public service broadcasting and the people who make those things happen. Instead, we are on the back foot because of a scandal around a small group of people at the top of the public service broadcaster being paid excessive salaries, secret payments to top up those salaries and an array of allowances that, it has been generally acknowledged, are excessive.

The question is how we are going to get out of this hole. The worst of all things has now happened. The exact thing that should not have happened is the people who are in no way guilty in any of this are now collateral damage, namely, the public who, because of the announcement we heard today, will suffer. I would like to hear commentary on this. If there is a recruitment freeze, it means the quality of public sector broadcasting will decline as long as that is in place. Journalists are telling us, and I believe it is true, that we do not have enough people on news teams and need more staffing in front-line areas. That means already the quality of public service broadcasting is threatened with being degraded, so the public will lose. That is an unacceptable situation. Digital services, precisely an area in which we need more investment, have been mentioned.

Given that this has all been about those excessive salaries, should the witnesses not have come in today with proposals for salary caps? Salary caps at the top would have addressed one of the key areas. I have looked at the detail and while I accept the GDPR point about the 100 top people, we could get more information. If you look at public sector pay, you get grades, roles and the salaries associated with them so there is transparency around those things. We have not got that level of information. The public is entitled to it if we are going to develop a new funding model. I ask the witnesses to seriously consider that.

If I hear the numbers correctly on bogus self-employment, they illustrate the contrast between how the majority of workers were treated and what was happening at the top level of RTÉ. If I hear the figures right, the majority of people who have fought cases against RTÉ on the question of being wrongly categorised as self-employed have won their cases. Why was RTÉ resisting them when clearly they were employees and should have been treated as employees? Why is RTÉ still spending a lot of money resisting the rights of the front-line workers who create the content? I ask you to address that.

An Cathaoirleach

Deputy Boyd Barrett, who are you addressing your questions to?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Are they for me?

An Cathaoirleach

Yes, I think so.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Yes.

An Cathaoirleach

You have one minute.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I will try to keep it short. There is a lot to address there.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Sorry.

An Cathaoirleach

The Deputy used the time himself. Go ahead, Mr. Bakhurst.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I hear, understand and agree with much of the Deputy's anger. As I have said, my long-term game is to protect the people who do the job, day in and day out, at RTÉ and not to allow us to get anywhere near anything such as compulsory redundancies, which is why I need to take early action now to manage the cash. I do not disagree with the Deputy at all. It is frustrating in the extreme, as the committee has heard from me, that a small number of people have inflicted this on an organisation that has enormous value to most people in the country. All I can focus on is delivering transparency and tackling inequity and inequality where I see them in the organisation. I know the leadership team are fully on board in that regard. I will also focus on delivering a better organisation that is more accountable to people. I understand that for many licence fee payers, €160 is a lot of money. People sometimes make choices between spending that money on the licence fee or on school uniforms. Some people are forced to make such choices. However, I ask people to consider what they are getting from RTÉ and the value involved, and the changes we are trying to make. I will do everything I can to continue making the case and to continue presenting an RTÉ worth investing in.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Murphy has had his name down since this morning. He has just joined us but I will pass to him if he is ready. He has five minutes.

Senator Eugene Murphy

The Cathaoirleach's timing is impeccable.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has probably been watching proceedings from his office.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I have not. I have only just arrived because I was held up with meetings. I welcome the witnesses to the meeting. I will not delay proceedings because I know many points have been made and questions answered. I will start on a positive note. It is great to see the progress with "The Late Late Show" and the confirmation of Patrick Kielty as host. There will be an enormous audience and I hope it will be a good show and a success.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

So do I.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I worry about the situation we are in now. I would describe RTÉ as a ship that has run aground and nobody seems to be able to get it back onto the water where it needs to be. Time is of the essence, as we all know, and it is running out. On the political side, there has been a lot of finger-pointing at many of the witnesses. However, I want to refer to something I said at the most recent meeting of the committee and about which I feel strongly. Around 2002, Mr. Cathal Goan and Mr. Bob Collins were the people in charge. They went to the new Government, including the then Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, and the then Minister with responsibility for communications, Dermot Ahern, seeking a bailout of €20 million, which was a significant amount at the time. There was concern within the relevant Department at that time. The Minister sent his people into RTÉ. He said at the time that RTÉ was in a shambles. If I recall correctly, he said there were people on the payroll who were not in RTÉ. That is shocking and outrageous. I know it is 21 years later but it seems that things have not improved very much. We can assign a lot of blame to the people before the committee today but things have been going wrong at RTÉ for a long time. We are now at a critical juncture.

I come from a broadcasting background. I spent many years broadcasting, producing and presenting for local audio. I also did some work with TG4 and Irish TV before it failed. I have an enormous interest in public broadcasting. I love broadcasting and want RTÉ to prevail. It is important that RTÉ prevails. In the political system, there are many elections coming up and we need to steady the RTÉ ship to ensure it is in a good place. It is obviously in everybody's interests to come clean. It is up to the politicians and the political system, if they get the answers, to put the necessary funding into RTÉ. I wish everybody well.

An Cathaoirleach

Does the Senator have a question?

Senator Eugene Murphy

How much funding are the witnesses seeking? Can they give us that information? How much are they seeking from the State and the taxpayer?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I thank the Senator. We are seeking €34.5 million of interim funding.

Senator Eugene Murphy

How much is Mr. Bakhurst seeking?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We are seeking €34.5 million for 2024. We have set out the reasons for that. The factors include the licence fee shortfall that preceded the current fall-off.

There are also inflationary pressures and a series of special events, including a number of elections next year. We do not know how many elections yet. We are in the hands of all the members for that, but some elections are already planned. We will cover those professionally and properly. On top of that, we have a licence fee shortfall of €21 million that we are looking for at the moment as a result of this crisis.

Senator Eugene Murphy

I have one quick question. Maybe it has been asked. Can Mr. Bakhurst assure us there are no threats to any staff members?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Sorry?

Senator Eugene Murphy

There are no threats to any staff. Can Mr. Bakhurst assure us that staff will not be made redundant?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I cannot give that assurance. I have been asked that by staff around the building. What I have said is I will do everything humanly possible to ensure we do not get to the position of having to have compulsory redundancies. If we get to that position, that would be a failure. That is why I have had to take early action to date to try to manage our cash, when we have uncertainty.

An Cathaoirleach

I will give one quickfire, short round because I am conscious that everybody has been here more than three hours, although we had a wee break. I will give three minutes to each member of the committee. I apologise to Deputy Boyd Barrett, who is looking at me. I will have to stick with committee members for this round to give everybody a bit of fairness.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Regarding the issue of still shots, I forgot to mention that we took any amount of them at the beginning of the meeting at low cost. RTÉ needs to seriously re-look at that arrangement-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We will seriously re-look at that.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

-----which has been put in place.

My understanding is the statutory borrowing limit is €85 million. How close is RTÉ to that now?

Mr. Mike Fives

The limit is €100 million. We had borrowed €60 million-odd by the end of 2022. I can give the Senator the number if he wants it.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Was it in or around €60 million?

Mr. Mike Fives

It was in or around €60 million, yes.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Ms Ní Raghallaigh mentioned something regarding Mr. Collins. What is his status at present?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

In terms of-----

Senator Micheál Carrigy

His employment.

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I will have to ask Mr. Bakhurst to comment on that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Richard is still employed with us. He is still in the role of CFO but he is not on the leadership team. There is nothing more I can say about that at the moment. I am not trying to be evasive. I am trying to be respectful to Richard and the situation.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Legal documentation in respect of Ryan Tubridy was mentioned. Has any legal documentation come from him or his agent regarding this current situation?

Ms Paula Mullooly

Yes.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Can Ms Mullooly tell us what that is in reference to?

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not want to comment unduly on legal matters but there has been an exchange of legal correspondence. We take a different view on the position of Ryan Tubridy's contract.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Can we expect further-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

I do not know.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I assume by that he is taking legal action against RTÉ.

Ms Paula Mullooly

I would not-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I am not the lawyer in the room so I can say a little-----

Ms Paula Mullooly

As I said, there has been legal correspondence. That is what there has been to date.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I think it is fair to say there is a dispute over the contract.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

On public service broadcasting, I recently read that a programme will be broadcast involving someone from Boyzone going to Türkiye to explore Ireland's relationship with teeth or something like that. I do not think that is value for money. We need to look at some of the content we are paying for. I ask for that point to be put across in respect of programmes coming up shortly. RTÉ needs to look at whoever is making these decisions. Perhaps it is coming at a cost. I do not think it is value for money or something the public is interested in reading about.

I asked Ms Ní Raghallaigh a question about the period 2017 to 2019. We have had 24-plus hours of public meetings in the Oireachtas between this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts. We have had a report from one of the top firms in the country. She made a comment about not getting full co-operation in getting answers. Who did not co-operate? Which individuals or staff members did not co-operate, which meant we did not get the complete answers we looked for? Are there individuals in the organisation who have not co-operated?

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

It is actually detailed in the reports.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

Who-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

Everybody knows that Dee Forbes was not available, for example. Off the top of my head, I am sorry I cannot-----

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

I can come back to the Senator.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I know Ms Forbes did not. I want to know whether anybody else did not co-operate. Was it solely the former-----

Ms Siún Ní Raghallaigh

There have been two reports. If the Senator does not mind, I will come back to him with that information.

I cannot remember exactly off the top of my head.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Anyone who is currently employed at RTÉ is expected to co-operate fully with these reports.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

It is expected. Is it the case, therefore, that no one who is currently an employee has in any way not co-operated?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

To my knowledge, no. If they were able to co-operate, they have co-operated and that is the instruction.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to move on.

Senator Micheál Carrigy

I will finish up. I will not ask another question. I was very taken with the words of Mr. Robert Shortt on behalf of the employees. That is something. I take on board the confidence he has in the organisation going forward. His view is that this is what is coming from the staff. I know other board members mentioned this. I was taken with Mr. Shortt's comment that he sees the ship sailing in a different direction now from what it was previously. That is positive to hear.

An Cathaoirleach

It is our duty as a committee to try to demonstrate this. The board has been helpful in this regard. I will move on to Deputy Munster, who has three minutes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I asked earlier for a breakdown of the allowances, particularly those in the personal category. I know Mr. Bakhurst said that some of them - possibly a percentage of them - are covered by a report. Could the committee get a breakdown of all of those who are in receipt of multiple allowances? I am not looking for names, obviously, but for the amount per individual in receipt of multiple allowances.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, we will provide that as soon as we can.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Could the committee be provided with that fairly soon?

The scandal of bogus self-employment must be tackled. It is a major issue. I do not have enough time to go into it here but it will be raised at the Committee of Public Accounts. Could the committee have as much information as possible? Having gone back and forth with the information that has been furnished, I do not think we have all of it. Could a scoping exercise be done in order that the committee does not have to wait yet again for further information?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Certainly. We have volumes of information. If the Deputy has any guidance on what the committee is looking for in particular, that would be useful.

Deputy Imelda Munster

That is perfect. I thank Mr. Bakhurst.

I will raise something again about GAAGO. I raised this at our media committee meeting in July. RTÉ's group head of sport was present at that meeting. I am raising this to flag the issue. We talk about transparency and not getting direct responses to direct questions. I posed a question about RTÉ putting domestic games behind a paywall. I asked whether clearance had been gained from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

I asked whether RTÉ was doing this without clearance from the CCPC. The first response from the group head of sport was "No." However, I knew RTÉ was, so I posed the question again. The response then was, "My understanding is that clearance has not been formalised with regard to the CCPC", so I tried again. The third time, I said that it would be simple enough to say "Yes". The third time there was a pause and I eventually received a "Yes". First, I am flagging up this sort of obstructionist attitude, the unwillingness to be transparent and the whole shooting gallery. Second, I am asking whether there has been any decision or update from the CCPC relating to this.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

As I understand it - Ms Mullooly can come in on this - there has been. To be clear on this, we took legal advice on whether we needed clearance for GAAGO. The legal advice was that we did not due to the length of the contract. However, there has been contact. Does Ms Mullooly wish to respond?

Deputy Imelda Munster

The CCPC has said that it had been investigating this issue since the previous May.

Ms Paula Mullooly

Can I clarify that point specifically? The CCPC is not investigating. There was engagement with the CCPC through our lawyers earlier in the year. The CCPC raised an inquiry, not an investigation. After some misreporting of the issue, we engaged with the CCPC to confirm there was no investigation. The CCPC has asked certain questions, which RTÉ is answering.

An Cathaoirleach

I will move on. I will call Deputy Griffin, who will have three minutes.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Will RTÉ provide an update on what the CCPC actually said, regardless of whether there is an investigation or whether the CCPC is following up on questions?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

We can update the Deputy with the outcome, specifically, when we have it.

Deputy Imelda Munster

Yes, please. I thank Mr. Bakhurst.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I asked previously for, and I was provided with, information on RTÉ employees doing their own podcasts that could be seen as competition with RTÉ. Could the witnesses furnish the committee with details of people who are contracted to RTÉ, that is, top presenters who are not employees but who are contracted and whether that is being reviewed? I asked about it in July and, in fairness, I said “employees” at the time. If the witnesses could come back on that, I would be grateful.

Does Mr. Bakhurst believe he treated Ryan Tubridy fairly in his dealings?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Yes, I do.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I understand in principle that Mr. Bakhurst was prepared for Mr. Tubridy to come back on air and negotiations broke down based on the statement he released subsequent to the publication of the Grant Thornton report. There was a line in there in particular that Mr. Bakhurst had difficulty with. Was that not broadly reflected in the Grant Thornton report itself?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No, it was not. The line in that report was the final part of this. I do not want to be unfair on Mr. Tubridy, but there was an issue for me about accepting the facts as they were now outlined and whether the various payments of €75,000 had been part of his remuneration package. It had been established that it was. I felt that to move on, he had to accept the facts and also accept he had some role in it, although RTÉ was largely to blame. In my view, I am afraid that was not forthcoming. That was why we ended it.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

In fairness to Mr. Tubridy, he came before this committee and the Committee of Public Accounts and spent a total of, I think, seven hours before them. He did not have to do that. I felt there was a spirit of trying to resolve the matter. Does Mr. Bakhurst not think his approach was disproportionate, being based on that statement that broke negotiations and finished everything?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I do not think so. I invested a significant amount of time in trying to see if there was a fair solution that could bring Mr. Tubridy back. As the Deputy knows, I had a lot on my plate, but I had a number of meetings or discussions with Mr. Tubridy. I wanted to bring him back because I thought that was fair. However, in the end, I reflected quite hard on it and felt it was not the right thing for the organisation at the time.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Was Mr. Bakhurst under pressure internally from others?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

No. I was not under pressure. I asked for views internally, from the board, from Radio 1 and his colleagues on his programme team and others on the leadership team. It was carefully considered and there was a proper and robust discussion about it within the organisation. I explained to Mr. Tubridy at the time that there were divided views about it in every area, including the significant amount of correspondence I got directly from the audience.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

Does Mr. Bakhurst think his media commentary about him on 17 August was appropriate as DG? Does he think it was appropriate to use RTÉ platforms to get his point across?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

I did not just use RTÉ platforms. I believe in being accountable and explaining my decisions. It was a significant decision, so I did interviews as they were asked for on RTÉ and for some commercial broadcasters.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I have one last question, if I may.

An Cathaoirleach

Make it quick.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

In relation to Raidió na Gaeltachta, we know the figures we have talked about here could do so much for the stations in my constituency - in Baile na nGall - and other constituencies. For a relatively small investment, there is a huge return. This recruitment freeze will negatively impact on those stations and those staff who are really pressed in trying to do their job, like the staff that Deputy Boyd Barrett spoke about earlier. Does Mr. Bakhurst think it is the right decision to take at this time or are there other places where he could take the low-hanging fruit and not disproportionately impact the workers on the ground who had no hand, act or part in this crisis but are the people who are now suffering?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

There is no low-hanging fruit. This is a significant enough problem that I have to take some robust action across the organisation. I am mindful of the impact on individuals and teams and will try to minimise that. However, we are facing a significant challenge. As I said earlier, the last thing I want to do is run out of cash and end up in compulsory redundancies. That would be damaging to people at Raidió na Gaeltachta as well.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

In relation to low-hanging fruit, I would suggest-----

An Cathaoirleach

I have to move on.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I wish to make the point that number 100 on the top 100-earners list is, I think, €108,000. There are more than 100 people above that, going right up to more than €500,000. Therefore, if Mr. Bakhurst is looking for low-hanging fruit, there is an orchard there.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

They all have contracts and, over time, we will look at the high-earners.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Regarding future negotiations on contracts for presenters, what principles or guidelines will Mr. Bakhurst adopt in that regard?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

The starting point means there is an expectation, rightly, that we have to attract talented presenters to present for the audience. This is rightly so and we need to have quality presenters. Look at the discussion already around the 9 o'clock slot on Radio 1. The principle will be, and I think I have already said this and demonstrated it in what has come into the public domain, that we need to bring down presenters' salaries overall at RTÉ. We are discussing this in the leadership group now. Every presenter's contract we consider at the moment comes to the whole leadership team and we have a discussion about it. We had one just last week about a presenter. There are views around the table and the case has to be made concerning what value a presenter brings to audiences and what commercial value he or she brings to RTÉ. These are the factors we try to base the decision on. Overall, the direction of travel is downwards on presenters' salaries.

Deputy Alan Dillon

How will RTÉ treat those represented by various agencies or agents and ensure they are treated fairly and in a transparent manner? As Mr. Bakhurst referred to, will there be an effective review of their performance? How will these negotiations take place? I ask this because I am sure many presenters will come for future contract renewals. I am trying to get a clear understanding regarding the principles going forward.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst

Some presenters are on staff, but there is a number of factors when we review contracts. These include how the presenter's programme has been performing with the audience and what the audience numbers are like, as well as the commercial impacts around the programme and the quality of what a presenter brings to the audience is also involved. It is not possible to judge everything on the numbers alone. Particularly in some areas, like in arts programming, there is also the question of the level of specialised knowledge and expertise, etc. These are all factors we try to weigh up in a proper discussion about what value presenters bring to the audience. This is the prism I see this through.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I thank the Cathaoirleach.

An Cathaoirleach

That concludes our hearing for today. I thank all the witnesses for being here. These are difficult meetings but they have been very helpful. I especially thank the members of the board for being here. For some, it might be their last opportunity to be in front of the committee. I thank Mr. Murphy and Mr. Hickey for diligently being with us via MS Teams for almost the past four hours. I also thank Ms Ní Raghallaigh and Mr. Bakhurst for being with us.

I wish the board the very best of luck. We all accept it is not an easy job. I was heartened today to hear each and every one of the witnesses suggest that things are different and that there is the transparency there and a shift in culture. This is extremely important because ultimately, as someone alluded to, the board members are the custodians of RTÉ. We want to see that public service broadcasting is in a very good place in future. We all need it. We need it for democracy, for civil society and for our culture. I wish the board the best of luck with that. I am sure this will not be the last hearing we will have but this meeting has been useful and helpful.

I also thank my colleagues who, in fairness, have driven from all parts of the island to be here too, including from County Kerry and places as far flung as Leitrim, Roscommon, Galway and even Dublin 4, a few miles out the road. I thank them for coming in during the middle of their break. We also appreciate all the members of the media who have been here diligently sitting through our hearings. I also thank the clerk to the committee and all her team. They have been working diligently and quietly, but certainly keeping us on track and on message. This concludes our business for today.

The joint committee adjourned at 5.09 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 September 2023.