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Joint Committee on Tourism, Culture, Arts, Sport and Media díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Jan 2024

Non-court-based Conflict Resolution Mechanisms for Media-related Complaints: Discussion

We have received apologies from Deputy Munster. Deputy Daly will be attending as a substitute for Deputy Andrews. If our guests can bear with me, I have some housekeeping matters to go through first in respect of some committee business to dispose of before we hear our opening statements. Can I take it that the draft minutes of our meeting of 6 December are formally agreed and that there are no matters arising? Is that agreed? Agreed.

The committee is meeting with representatives from NewsBrands Ireland, Local Ireland, the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, and the Press Council of Ireland and Office of the Press Ombudsman to discuss non-court-based conflict resolution mechanisms for the handling of media-related complaints. I request that members and witnesses alike refrain from discussing individual cases that may be the subject of legal proceedings. It is envisaged that today's discussion will remain policy focused.

I warmly welcome our guests. From the Press Council of Ireland and the Office of the Press Ombudsman, I welcome Ms Susan McKay, Press Ombudsman, and Mr. Rory Montgomery, chair of the Press Council of Ireland. From NewsBrands Ireland, I welcome Mr. Danny McConnell, editor of the Business Post, to a different side of Leinster House than he is normally used to. It is lovely to have him in with us.

(Interruptions).

That is a good start. I do not want to forget any of our guests. From NewsBrands Ireland, I also welcome Mr. Michael Kealey, solicitor, DMG Media. From Local Ireland, I welcome Mr. Dave O'Connell, editor of The Connacht Tribune. From the Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, I welcome Mr. John Purcell, chair, and Mr. Michael Brett, project manager, who are no strangers to these committee rooms either. From the NUJ, I welcome Mr. Seamus Dooley, Irish secretary, and Mr. Ian McGuinness, Irish organiser.

The format of today's meeting is such that I will invite our witnesses to deliver opening statements limited to three minutes each. I ask them to stick to that if at all possible. Questions from members of the committee will then follow. The witnesses are probably aware that the committee may publish the opening statements and briefing documents on its web page. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before we proceed with the opening statements, I wish to explain some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. Witnesses are again reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to any identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I also remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to attend who is not adhering to this constitutional requirement.

I propose that we proceed with the opening statements in the following order. We will begin with Mr. McConnell on behalf of NewsBrands Ireland. We will then hear the opening statements of Mr. Dave O'Connell from Local Ireland, Mr. Seamus Dooley from the NUJ, Mr. John Purcell from the IBI and Ms Susan McKay, our Press Ombudsman. Without further ado, I invite Mr. McConnell to give his opening statement. The floor is his.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

I thank the committee for the opportunity to be here. For the record, my name is Daniel McConnell and I am the editor of the Business Post. Mr. Kealey and I are here on behalf of NewsBrands Ireland.

To get to the subject of the meeting, litigation is expensive, slow and its outcome uncertain. This is especially so in defamation cases. The involvement of juries in High Court actions lengthens considerably both the trial itself and the time taken for it to come to a hearing. Civil jury decisions are erratic and lack transparency, and this leads to greatly increased legal costs. On average, it takes three to four years for a defamation case to reach trial. From my experience, I know that in some cases it can take an awful lot longer. Such delays do not do justice to plaintiffs, who, if defamed, should be entitled to have access to the courts and to have their good name vindicated as quickly as possible. Neither can it be said to do justice to defendants because delays and the threat of sizeable damages and legal costs exert a chilling effect on the right to free speech.

The general scheme of the defamation (amendment) Bill goes some way towards ameliorating these problems and concerns. It places an obligation on solicitors to advise clients of alternatives to litigation, namely, the roles of the Press Council of Ireland and Office of the Press Ombudsman and of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland, BAI, as well as the advantages of mediation. NewsBrands Ireland is a founding member of the Press Council of Ireland and Office of the Press Ombudsman. The benefits of taking a complaint to the Press Ombudsman are many. It promises to be “fast, free and fair”. Complaints can cover all alleged breaches of the code of practice of the Press Council of Ireland, ranging from accuracy to privacy and to issues that do not allow for a legal remedy such as fairness and grief.

Mediation is confidential and without prejudice. The parties are the decision-makers. They control the process and can walk away from the mediation if they wish. The privacy of the process is particularly attractive in defamation cases. Anything said or seen within the process that would normally be part of disclosure will remain confidential even if litigation is commenced or proceeds further. Despite all their advantages, these conflict resolution mechanisms will not, in the absence of further changes to the general scheme, have the impact hoped for.

In particular, a serious harm test, similar to that introduced in the UK, must be brought into force here. The general scheme proposes a serious harm test in cases involving bodies corporate, public authorities and retailers. It is a mystery, however, why it is not being introduced in all defamation cases.

The Irish media faces, on an almost daily basis, unwarranted and exaggerated claims for defamation. The costs of defending these cases are significant and are often unrecoverable even where the defence succeeds. A serious harm test for all defamation proceedings would alleviate the costs of such unwarranted claims and the risks to Ireland associated with strategic lawsuits against public participation, SLAPPs, and "libel tourism".

For all the advantages of non-court based solutions, lawyers and their clients can be slow to look beyond litigation and a potential financial windfall. They may need not just the carrot of alternative dispute resolution methods but the stick of the risk of failure to meet a serious harm test. In the absence of a serious harm test, very wealthy claimants, including those with little or no connection to this country, will have little deterrent to stop them going to law. The nuisance claimant will have little incentive to seek alternative redress. If such a test is introduced, meritorious claimants will still have non-court based mechanisms open to them, as well as the right to go to full trial. As a result, NewsBrands Ireland urges the joint committee to support the introduction of a serious harm test in defamation cases.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

I thank the Chair, TDs and Senators for the invitation to address them on the very important issue of alternatives to court action when members of the public have a grievance with local and national publishers. My name is Dave O’Connell and I am the editor of The Connacht Tribune. We are an independently owned publisher both in print and online. We were established in Galway in 1909, so it is fair to say we have long-standing experience of all the issues that may arise from publication, including of course defamation actions. All publishers in Local Ireland – and there are 33 such regional papers right across the country - recognise the right of everyone to their good name and when we make a mistake, which I hope is only very occasionally, we absolutely believe we should rectify it.

It is clear, however, as Mr. O'Connell said, that the current legislation on defamation is not fit for purpose. It is vital, as our colleagues in NewsBrands Ireland have indicated, that it be reformed. That said, it is important members of the public understand the alternatives to legal action, even as it stands, when they have an issue with something that has been published. If you are wronged or believe you have been wronged, the first port of call should be the reporter who wrote the story, who will then raise the matter with his or her editor, or, alternatively, the complainant can go straight to the editor. Regional newspapers in particular have no layers between the reader and the editor - as I am sure many members know - or, indeed, the reporter. In our case at The Connacht Tribune, we have a staff of 30 who live around the city and county. They are embedded in their local communities and involved in local sporting organisations. Half the stories we carry come from social meetings within those towns and villages.

If we are wrong, we will apologise and, as the press council would insist anyway, we will print this on a page no further back in the paper than the original error. Resolving an issue locally is, as far as we are concerned, the best course of action for everyone because it avoids the stress and cost, for both sides, that can arise from going down the legal route. If the complainant is still not satisfied, they can go the press council via the Press Ombudsman who can then arbitrate and, if necessary, issue a ruling on the matter. That could involve an apology and correction from the publisher if the ruling is against us and that is binding on us as members of the press council. I know this both as a member of the board of the press council between 2013 and 2016 and as an editor dealing with those, as I said, fortunately occasional complaints. It is speedy, transparent, and if a person feels we have damaged their good name there will be a retraction or apology or both, in a timeframe that contrasts with the courts. I have put on record that we welcome the clause in the proposed defamation legislation that puts an onus on legal advisers to draw a complainant’s attention to this course of action. We note that in a recent defamation case - not in the west - the judge ruled in favour of the publisher and noted as a factor that the plaintiff had not initially raised the matter with the press council. These are very simple and straightforward steps that can avert a very long, drawn-out and costly legal action.

The problems that can arise when these processes do not succeed is best illustrated by our own experience at The Connacht Tribune. When I met many members last autumn I outlined an example of a court case from 2014 which we got wrong and admitted we got wrong. I have to be a little bit vague on this but it followed a public melee and several members of one family were involved, but we got the name of a victim and the name of the defendant mixed up. They had the same surname, but, no excuses, it was wrong. The following week we apologised without any equivocation and attempted to sort the matter out. To compound the problem, someone else who shared the name of the person we wrongly identified, but who was nowhere near the incident, also sued us. It went off the radar for years at a time and then resurfaced every so often just in time to keep it alive, but it was then listed last year for the Circuit Court. We could have fought the second case but the two were joined together and both our side and theirs had the same solicitor and barrister, so we did what all media organisations do and we again entered settlement talks. I cannot disclose the final figure because there is a confidentiality clause, but when our side and their side’s figures are added together, it is close to six figures and that is with the actual plaintiffs getting, by our estimation, a four-figure sum. We were wrong and we must pay the price, but it is the legal fees that are killing us and the time lapse between the original cause of the complaint and a final arbitration did not serve either side.

We have been fairly lucky, or careful, or both over the years and have not had a spate of legal actions, although I know this is tempting fate. However, one half-decent action, without any malicious intent, could close us down. That means job losses or even the future of a local newspaper, where economic pressures are already, to put it mildly, very challenging. I hope we are not one libel payout away from doom, but I really would not like to have to put that to the test.

I thank members for their time and look forward to any questions they may have.

I thank Mr. O'Connell. I let him go way over the time, which is okay as it was a well-illustrated point. Mr. Dooley is next.

Mr. Séamus Dooley

I thank the Cathaoirleach very much for the opportunity to address the committee and to address the committee on something other than RTÉ.

The joint committee on justice has recommended that the general scheme be amended to introduce a serious harm test in all defamation cases. We do not always preach from the same hymn sheet as the employers, but on this one we definitely do, because we seek the support of the committee for that recommendation as it is the kernel of the matter. While supportive of the concept of non court-based systems, we believe the absence of a serious harm test inhibits a culture of non-adversarial resolution of disputes regarding alleged reputation damage. Last week in the High Court of Northern Ireland, Master Evan Bell dismissed as "scandalous, frivolous and vexatious" a defamation action taken by Mr. Gerry Kelly MLA against NUJ member Dr. Malachi O’Doherty. The case was identified as being characteristic of a SLAPP. Malachi O’Doherty’s description of feeling harassed by the action and how both his house and professional credibility had been placed at risk by a defamation action deemed to have no prospect of success resonated with many journalists and editors.

Like NewsBrands Ireland and Local Ireland, the NUJ is a founder member of Press Council of Ireland and Office of the Press Ombudsman. That model has been extremely successful, not least because of the successful mediation system which, as Mr. O'Connell has alluded to, is a feature of the office. The NUJ welcomes the fact that under the general scheme of the Bill, solicitors would be obliged to advise clients of the non court-based mechanisms available via the Press Council of Ireland, PCI, and Office of the Ombudsman in the case of PCI members. The press council and Press Ombudsman mechanism does not offer financial compensation. Thus, complaints intent on financial compensation or cashing in on a genuine error will find the PCI avenue unsuitable and there is a risk solicitors will make only a perfunctory reference to alternative means of redress in the absence of a serious harm test. The alternative mechanism for those wishing to make complaints against broadcasters is Coimisiún na Meán, formerly the BAI, which also does not offer financial redress.

There is an obligation on funding bodies to ensure the public is aware of the existence of the Press Council of Ireland and Office of the Press Ombudsman and to adequately fund the office. That is a challenge. There can be no doubt that it is a significant commitment at a time when the newspaper industry faces significant challenges. However, the existence of a council independent of Government but with statutory underpinning is an important part of our democratic structures and is an essential investment.

A serious harm test and a robust, well-resourced complaints structure can and must go hand in hand if we are to serve the public interest, and that is the ultimate test in any democracy.

Mr. John Purcell

I thank the committee for the invitation to appear today. Every week our members in the IBI broadcast hundreds of hours of live radio, an environment which is fraught with risk. However, the independent radio sector has operated under a non courts-based resolution mechanism for many years, and across the sector the number of complaints proceeding to legal remedy is quite low. The system is overseen by the broadcasting regulator, currently Coimisiún na Meán, and until last year by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland. This system does not prejudice legal action being taken, but in some cases it can provide a boost to legal actions being taken against broadcasting organisations that otherwise may not be sustainable.

We have submitted a document to the committee, which outlines how the process worked and we have also identified a number of issues and how we feel the system could be improved. As a principle we believe it is always preferable to seek to address complaints outside the realm of the law courts and the system we have has largely worked well. One of the positive points about a non courts-based complaints resolution mechanism is that the barriers to making a complaint are quite low. There is no charge and the mechanism places responsibilities on broadcasters to respond to and address complaints in a very rapid manner - less than one month. This is a two-edged sword. While not especially old, the processes and procedures regarding complaints were framed and developed in something of a different age. They are grounded on assumptions of complainants always acting in good faith and without much consideration being given to the mobilisation of mass campaigns of complaining. We unfortunately now live in an age of outrage and radicalisation. In other jurisdictions there is a trend towards the weaponisation of complaints processes. We are beginning to see that here.

We are thankfully not in an unmanageable situation yet. However, we have no reason to believe this trend may not emerge in this country. We have seen isolated incidents. This could become problematic for broadcasters and the regulatory system. It should be borne in mind when consideration is being given to changes to current structures and the development of further structures. To date, complaints regarding broadcasters submitted to the regulator regardless of the scale, complexity or detail are addressed in more or less the same manner. Once a complaint is submitted the broadcaster is required to submit a detailed explanation and defence of its position to the regulator. The complaint and response are then considered by the complaints mechanism within the regulator. Given the ramifications of a complaint being upheld, all complaints are taken seriously.

We believe that in future, the development of the complaints procedure operated by the regulator should provide a variety of options depending on the seriousness of the complaint. In the judicial system, not all cases start at the Supreme Court and the judicial system operates on the basis of varying levels of courts. Before a case is taken to court there is a procedure to establish whether there is a case to answer. We believe that in further developing non court-based resolution mechanisms for our media there needs to be further work done on determining if there is a case to answer in order to avoid the trend of huge amounts of time being taken up with large volumes of often not very serious complaints.

Ms Susan McKay

I thank the committee and Chair. I am accompanied by Mr. Rory Montgomery, chairperson of the Press Council of Ireland. When it comes to questions, he can also take them. The Press Council of Ireland provides a readily accessible complaints handling service, to allow readers of Irish newspapers and online publications to make complaints about press coverage. Complaints are assessed by the Press Ombudsman for breaches of a code of principles, the most frequently cited of which is truth and accuracy. Independence is our hallmark. It is the basis on which we ask for the trust of the public. We were set up in 2008 after the then Government looked set to introduce statutory press regulation. The Press Council is independent of Government, and of the press industry. A majority of its members are appointed by public competition. The Press Council in turn appoints the Press Ombudsman, who is then independent in her decision making capacity. We are, then, a non-statutory body. However, in the area of defamation, we are recognised in statute under section 44, Schedule 2 of the Defamation Act (2009), which requires us to ensure freedom of expression and to protect the public interest. This status confers qualified privilege on our decisions.

Our structures were expressly set up to offer the public a route to redress, which did not involve litigation. In our submission to the review of the 2009 Act we stressed the need to ensure that the public knows we offer a free and fast alternative dispute resolution system, and we are pleased that the new Act will require solicitors to inform persons, considering suing, of this. The new law will formally recognise online publications, many of which are already members of the Press Council. It interestingly also opens the possibility for online publications by broadcasters, which are currently and anomalously unregulated, to join the Press Council. The Press Council agreed in March 2023 that it is open to this proposal subject to discussions with Coimisiún na Meán and broadcasters and the resolution of practical issues. The Press Council and Office of the Press Ombudsman recognise and respect the rights of citizens of this country to go to law to defend their good name. Using our process does not preclude prior or subsequent legal action. Defamation cases can only be brought on certain narrow grounds, whereas our code is wide ranging and supple. When the High Court in the North struck down a recent defamation case brought by a politician in the strongest terms, the subject of the failed defamation claim, the northern freelance journalist Malachy O'Doherty, commented that the court had delivered "a quare slap on the gob" to the litigant and his party. You won't get "a quare slap on the gob" from the Press Council of Ireland and the Office of the Press Ombudsman if you are found to have breached our code. Nor will you get a hefty legal bill. Our service is free to all and does not impose financial penalties. We are as concerned as our members about the dangers that defamation suits pose to freedom of expression. The industry must also be able to provide funding for our service. If the press holds power to account, it is not in the public interest to risk bankrupting it. We are campaigning to encourage public figures, including politicians, to use our alternative redress system. By doing So they will acknowledge their respect for democracy.

We turn to members for their questions and answers. I remind them that they have eight minute slots. Whether they use that to talk entirely themselves to make statements, or to get answers, is entirely up to them. However, they have eight minutes each.

I welcome the witnesses. This strikes me as something of a political hearing, as this is a politicised issue at the moment. It veers closely to the remit of the justice committee. Our joint Oireachtas committees cross over a number of times. I attended the Joint Committee on Justice about licensing laws, which affects culture and the arts. I welcome and have no objection to this hearing. I see it, in particular with the Press Council and the Press Ombudsman, as a chance to expand on a discussion we had at the public petitions committee last March 2023. I am also a member of that committee. We had a good conversation that time. We discussed resources. Ms McKay mentioned at the time that she would have liked to have had more resources to do outreach. There is a need for education about the work of the Press Council and the Press Ombudsman. They receive a lot of unsuitable complaints to the office. They would like more resources to make the office better known - it is not sufficiently well known. They were not sure that people understand a good complaints process is available to them. All of the newspapers have complaints processes, but if people are still frustrated there is an independent office. Many people do not understand that it is independent.

Ms McKay again says that the office needs to be funded but considerable thought will need to be given to how that should be done. I am conscious that the industry funds the regional and national titles and the Press Council of Ireland, which was set up in 2008. Ms McKay has mentioned that when the Government looked to introduce statutory press regulation, the Press Council of Ireland was set up by the press industry. I have looked at the annual reports and it seems there was a huge difference in funding and resources between 2008, when the council was set up, and where we were in 2022. Can the council comment on that? I welcome Mr. Montgomery to contribute to this question also. There was an annual spend of €704,000 in 2008 but in 2022 that was down to €339,000. Why is the funding reduced? Does the council anticipate that the funding will continue to reduce over the years ahead?

Ms Susan McKay

I thank the Senator Warfield for the question. It is obviously a matter of great concern to me as Press Ombudsman that the funding is very low at the moment. We are operating a service on the basis of two full-time members of staff - myself and the case manager, Bernadette Grogan - and a part-time administrator, a post which is actually currently vacant. We are operating quite a substantial service on a very low budget. We boast that we are independent of the Government and of the press industry. While we can at the moment say that we are independent of both, one cannot be independent if one does not have the funds to run one's service properly. I know it is in the interests of the industry as well in the interests of our office that the office is seen to be funded properly to do its job. For example, I need funds to be able to work in the area of outreach, which the Senator has referred to. If I do not have those funds, can I truly say I am getting the level of complaints I would be getting if more people knew about the Office of the Press Ombudsman? I think not. Without intentionally doing so, the industry could be inhibiting my ability to get the maximum number of complaints. It is very important that we should not be complacent about the relatively low level of complaints we get. It may well be that it is because people are generally satisfied with the performance of the press, or that they are very satisfied with the systems of complaint operated by the newspapers themselves, but it might also just be that not enough people know how to use the Office of the Press Ombudsman. It is a matter of concern and it is one that needs to be given further discussion. I recently made an application to Coimisiún na Meán for a small amount of funding. Again, that is not the Government but it is an area which is moving towards looking for other sources of income.

Can I ask Mr. Montgomery if he believes the industry needs to commit to a more sustainable funding model that might involve five years or ten years, which would enable the office to plan?

Mr. Rory Montgomery

Yes. What happens with the process every year is that the press council, at the proposal initially of the Press Ombudsman, draws up a draft budget and that is discussed with what is called the administrative committee. For a small organisation we have quite a complex structure but the administrative committee is chaired by the vice-chair, my deputy, and brings together the representatives of the various newspaper groups and others. We are very conscious that the industry has been and is undergoing great challenges. Profitability has fallen considerably, even since 2008. When we come up with a budget, we try to be as realistic as we can. As has been rightly said by the Senator, there has been an enormous reduction since 2008. We have very good relations with all of our members and publications and we are lucky in that-----

But the funding has been halved.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

Absolutely.

Is that all down to commercial pressure?

Mr. Rory Montgomery

I am saying that. It is a question and this is an issue which we are talking about pretty constantly with our funders outside even the context of the annual budget process. At the same time, we are mindful of the pressures on them. As Ms McKay has rightly said, there is a risk that the shoestring, as it were, of the budget could snap. This year, for the first time, we are having to dip a little bit into our reserves to cover our current expenditure. That is obviously not sustainable.

I believe the Senator is correct in that if it was possible to come up with a longer term strategy, I would agree absolutely with that but this is an ongoing discussion and part of it is an appreciation that individuals concerned from the industry are fully aware, as we have heard, of the benefits of the press council. It is important for that to feed through to everybody on the commercial side as well as on the editorial side.

Mr. Purcell is indicating to respond to Senator Warfield.

Mr. John Purcell

I know that Senator Warfield just mentioned the press, but the radio sector also operates in this area. I find those figures interesting. Our members contribute €2.5 million every year to our regulator which operates a wide range of controls.

Mr. John Purcell

That is Coimisiún na Meán.

Has Senator Warfield concluded?

Yes, and I thank An Cathaoirleach.

I thank Senator Warfield. Senator Cassells has eight minutes for his contribution.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and I welcome all of the witnesses. For the record, I state that I am still a member of the NUJ.

I disagree with Senator Warfield in his statement that this hearing is politicised. We have been discussing the future of the media now for the past four years on this particular committee. In my mind, this is a key component of that. I disagree inherently with the Senator that this is politicised. It is something that must be in his head because it is not in mine.

Can I start with Mr. O'Connell as someone who is representing the local media? It is still the largest representative body of media in this country. With regard to local newspapers and indeed local radio, it is probably the most at risk of taking a hit from a financial point of view. In his opening statement, he actually mentioned a case with regard to The Connacht Tribune. Can he give the committee members a broader appraisal of how many times local newspapers would face such actions in a year? Mr. O'Connell mentioned a six-figure sum in that regard but what is the real evidence across the local newspaper sector with regard to what they are facing on an annual basis as to the average settlements Mr. O'Connell's members would come to?

Mr. Dave O'Connell

It is very hard to be specific in these things because the vast majority of our actions never get to court. It becomes, rather than a legal proposition, a financial proposition almost from the outset. We will settle as quickly as we possibly can if we are in the wrong on something.

When Mr. O'Connell is speaking to his fellow members, what would the likes of The Connacht Tribune and the Meath Chronicle be putting aside on their books to account for this and factor it in for the year ahead?

Mr. Dave O'Connell

I can only talk about what The Connacht Tribune would put aside for something like this. We would have a running fund, again in the hope not to be cleaning this out in any given year. It would be irresponsible of us not to have €100,000 in reserve.

From Mr. O'Connell having spoken to his members, how many times during the year would a local newspaper face very serious complaints?

Mr. Dave O'Connell

Again, this is a question of how long a piece of string is. I can only talk-----

It is important in the context of this issue.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

It is, of course. From our own point of view, I would say five to six times a year.

Can I quickly ask Mr. Purcell from the radio sector a similar type of question?

Mr. John Purcell

Most complaints are dealt with without recourse to the formal complaints procedure because we are required to literally-----

Would Mr. Purcell's members be putting aside a similar amount of money of approximately €100,000?

Mr. John Purcell

It would be prudent to put such funds aside. I believe that the level of our complaints would probably be lower. When someone initially complains, we try to resolve it informally. That is part of the complaints process. For example, someone will contact the complainant, talk through the complaint, and so on and so forth. People can lodge a formal complaint with the radio station which then has a procedure for dealing with that. The next step before court can be a formal complaint to the regulator. We find, and it was often the case in my personal experience, that many people make complaints because what they have heard as being said is not what has actually been said. Sometimes, that is also a factor.

Can I talk to Mr. McConnell from a national point of view? In his opening statement, he said that the civil jury decisions are "erratic". What does he mean by that because the question of whether there should be juries is a big one in the general scheme of the Bill? This has been deemed by some, including retired justices, as being inherently undemocratic.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

We do not accept that argument because if that was the case, why is there no jury in personal injury cases? Is that a demographic deficit? We do not agree that it is. They are erratic because they lengthen the time it takes to get to trial in the first place. They lengthen the time of a trial and, therefore, lengthen and escalate the costs implicated. Simply being in court, the clock is ticking and the legal costs are escalating all the time. Ultimately, it also gets down to the issues of awards. Sometimes awards can be within narrow confines and sometimes they can be much broader. Sometimes newspapers and news organisations have found themselves subject to extremely high award cases. They are erratic. The call for the abolition of juries and a serious harm test would mitigate significantly that unknown or variable in terms of cost. As Mr. O'Connell rightly said, the minute you get a legal letter to your desk in complaint, the clock is ticking and the legal costs are escalating.

Similar to what I asked Mr. O'Connell, what does Mr. McConnell find from his members at a national level regarding the quantity of cases taken against the national papers?

Mr. Daniel McConnell

I use the phrase "near-daily" complaints. If you look across the industry, there are near-daily complaints to national newspapers with legal letters arriving. From a Sunday newspaper perspective, as we are in the Business Post, traditionally, we deal with more investigative work or more sensitive stuff. You often get a legal letter before you have even gone to publication because they are trying to muzzle you in some way or they do not want you to publish what you are trying to do. It is on an ongoing basis and a difficulty. As we said in our address to members before Christmas, such is the pressure on us from a resource perspective that you do not just think about how to defend it from a journalistic or legal perspective, you look at how to minimise your financial exposure, which is not how it should be.

On the issue of resources, there is no doubt the volume of journalists working in newsrooms today vis-à-vis 20 years ago is lower. That puts pressure on reporters to get things right, which everyone strives to do in a newsroom but the reality is that is becoming more challenging because the resources Mr. McConnell, for example, has at his disposal as a national editor are fewer than those his colleagues may have had 20 years ago.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

That ultimately feeds into your decision-making process. We use the phrase "a chilling effect" from time to time. Ultimately, you are going to be more cautious about a particular story than you would have been because of the potential financial impact. In the realm of SLAPP, you may be less likely to go gung-ho or really rigorously tackle a subject because it deals with a high-profile, very wealthy individual because of the potential fallout if you get it wrong or they simply decide to go legal on you from the get-go. All of these matters are in your decision-making for every story. Every time we go to publish something, that looms large in your consideration.

Mr. Séamus Dooley

A survey was carried out by BDO Simpson Xavier, the accountants, concerning legal costs for the two-year period from 2017 to 2019 for national publishers. The costs at that stage were €14.5 million, of which €8.7 million went on legal costs. That is only over a two-year period. That gives some indication of the scale of the challenge which the national media faces.

The NUJ represents the workforce and reporters who strive to get things right. Balance that against the people who own these media organs. When I started as an intern 30 years ago at the Meath Chronicle when I was in college, there was a full-time copy-reader - in a provincial newspaper, in a newsroom. Now, you are lucky to get journalists to staff what is required, certainly at provincial level and now at national level as well. Is there not an onus on the owners of these media organs, which are commercial entities, to make sure they provide the proper resources so that we do not find Mr. McConnell, Mr. O'Connell or Mr. Purcell in those positions?

Mr. Séamus Dooley

Yes, there is. There is a chilling effect to defamation. There is also a chilling effect of the lack of investment in editorial resources. That is a reality. The pressure the Senator identified and with which he is familiar is something journalists suffer from. Another issue on which we have not touched is that journalists may be sued individually. There is a particular issue concerning freelance journalists who do not have the protection of a source. The suing of freelance journalists is a particular concern with which we deal regularly. Whether or not this is a political issue - I contend it is because only politicians can reform the law. In that sense, I believe the industry should invest in the council and in resources. The chill effect to which Mr. McConnell referred regarding whether stories are done or not is a big challenge, particularly for freelancers.

I wish to ask Mr. McConnell and our local representatives about how pronounced that is. Can he provide a real-life example of the impact that is having on Irish journalism, which leads into Irish democracy?

Mr. Daniel McConnell

I am in post since last April. As I said, in the Business Post, we do a lot of sensitive and deep investigative work. When questions are put to the organisation on a Thursday or Friday ahead of publication, the response can be from the individual, a press office, media or PR agency or a lawyer. When they come from a lawyer and they state, "We will not tell you why you are wrong, but you are and if you publish any of this we will sue you", that obviously has an immediate chilling effect on your decision-making. You go back to your journalist and make sure you have your i's dotted and t's crossed. If you are satisfied your work is done and you have the story, then you publish. On that doubt on a Saturday night when the button is pressed and the paper is gone to bed, there are sleepless nights.

Finally, very finally.

The legal resources available to local newspapers and radio are not the same as those available to national organisations. That has an impact as well. On top of that, it is clear the resources available at a local level, covering courts in particular, are diminishing. That has a serious impact on Irish democracy. Will Mr. O'Connell comment?

Mr. Dave O'Connell

I have been in this role for 15 years. We are down by almost half the staff we had when I started in this role. The Senator is right - in any democracy, covering courts and councils in particular takes bodies. It cannot be done in any other way. The short answer is you end up pulling your punches because you simply cannot afford to take chances. Most if not all of the cases we have are not to do with major investigations we have undertaken but with genuine mistakes. That is the pressure of work we are under.

I have the same question for Mr. Purcell.

Thirty seconds.

We heard in the presentation in the AV room that the journalists coming out of DCU or DIT or wherever are now working for PR companies or, worse, politicians. What is the situation regarding the quality of young journalists coming into newsrooms and the ability to cover them?

Mr. John Purcell

We are definitely under pressure. As Mr. O'Connell said, you are on a knife-edge of resources. The Senator asked if it is up to media owners to provide more resources. If the resources are not there, you cannot provide them. That will particularly be felt in the coming months in the coverage of local elections, which will be dramatically scaled back on independent radio as a result of the decline in numbers in newsrooms and so on and the risk of complaints under the very onerous election coverage obligations. If you fall foul of them, they can and have been used as the basis for legal actions.

I welcome our witnesses. Today's meeting came about from our engagement in the autumn with local radio stations and local and national newspapers. As a committee, all through Covid, we have been pushing to get supports, whether that is VAT, etc., to try to maintain our local, regional and national newspapers because they are under extreme stress. The Government has been forthcoming with support over those years but this was highlighted as a major issue of concern in the industry, which is why we are here today. I was interested in the statement by Ms McKay from the Office of the Press Ombudsman that using its process "does not preclude subsequent legal action" if need be. I think it was in the last line that by going through the Office of the Press Ombudsman, one acknowledges a respect for democracy. Does Ms McKay feel the significant number of current legal cases affects democracy? We are leading into local, European and general elections in the next six to 15 months. Is it her view - I may ask others - that perhaps all political parties should sign up to a charter that they would go to the Press Council of Ireland with any complaints or issues and not go down the legal route?

Ms Susan McKay

I do not think it is really for the Press Council of Ireland or the Press Ombudsman to try to dictate to politicians or public figures as to what route they should take. All we can do is strongly encourage them and also publicly make the point that it is not in the interests of democracy to put newspapers and broadcasters under the kind of pressure that our colleagues here have described today.

It is a threat to democracy when we hear newspaper people talking about how they cannot pursue investigations because of the chill effect of the fact that they know they simply cannot afford to defend them. Some of the evidence that has been given by the editors today is very disturbing - getting calls from lawyers as they approach deadlines to say if they publish something, they are going to sue them without even specifying what it is. That is clearly a misuse of the law. We can draw attention to that, but it would not be our place to advocate that there should be any kind of a charter on it.

I would say, and it needs to be said, that we think this applies equally to all parties and all public figures. We are not, as some are, singling out any particular party or individuals with regard to this. However, it is very disquieting to hear the editors talking in the way they have talked today about the chill effect that even the threat of litigation can have. I have experience of that as a journalist in having stories just dropped or changed simply because the effort required to defend them would be such that it would be out of proportion.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

I will just add one thing, which is that looking back over our records, in fact, representatives of virtually every party have at one time or another made use of our structures. Therefore, it is not a question of people automatically going to law, but there is no doubt that it is a phenomenon. We came out and welcomed the Taoiseach's call in the autumn for political people to use our structures. As the Senator said, it is not the end of the road if people are not happy with the outcome. It seems to me standing back that politicians have a better platform to defend their good name, perhaps, than ordinary citizens. Most of our cases are coming from ordinary citizens in ordinary occupations who feel that something has been gotten wrong at the local or national level. That is an important point to make.

I know Mr. Montgomery has not said it, but I would take it from this that he would be agreeable that all parties would sign up to it, and that is all and none.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

How it would be done is entirely up to the parties. Whether it needs a charter, I do not know, but we would strongly support the basic principle that the first port of call should absolutely be our structures and then after that people can see where it takes them.

I will ask some of the representatives from the National Union of Journalists, NUJ, or Independent Broadcasters of Ireland, IBI, if it is something of which they would be in favour.

Mr. Séamus Dooley

It is problematic because I do not think we can have a voluntary system but that we require politicians, by virtue of standing for public office, to sign up to a charter. I can see that there are difficulties in that. Public figures have a right, and some defamation cases are legitimate. I also think that in some perspectives we need to take one step back away from the charter idea, but I would certainly appeal to politicians always to use the mechanism of the Press Council of Ireland. I think what would happen is that some politicians would refuse to sign the charter or some political individuals would refuse to sign it and then the Press Council of Ireland would actually become a political football in terms of whether a person had or had not signed the charter, and that is not in the interests of the council either. I can, therefore, see a difficulty around that. I agree with the principle, however.

It is important to say, and we have not really dealt with it adequately, that mediation and the early mediation system that works in the council is the most effective bit. When we talk about mediation, as Dr. John Horgan, the first ombudsman, said, sometimes mediation means a call from the editor or news editor to say, "Senator Carrigy, I got it wrong" and that is the end of it. Most people who contact the Press Council of Ireland are not gold-diggers. They are genuinely people who buy their newspapers from the editors and their colleagues in the distribution business. They merely want an acknowledgment. That is actually the bread and butter of the Press Council of Ireland.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

To echo Mr. Dooley, I would largely agree. There are difficulties with a charter. The members are all individual politicians. Some of them are subject to a party whip but I do not necessarily think they are all going to individually or collectively just say a charter would apply to them all.

To Mr. Dooley's point, I know from the editor's chair that the best remedy to any sort of grievance is picking up the telephone. I have had it in my near nine months as editor of the Business Post. We have had issues where honest mistakes have happened. There have been misinterpretations where a headline might have gone awry either online or in print. Nine times out of ten, it takes a telephone call and a quick correction. It is standing policy in the Business Post that where a story is in contention, it gets withdrawn temporarily while an investigation happens. We then look at it and if we feel we are happy, we republish. If there is an error, we clarify. Ultimately, that addresses it. There is an expedience so that issues get addressed very quickly. It takes the heat out of it. It de-escalates it from the point of view of where lawyers get involved and that financial clock ticks. I found that the simple fact of giving someone a hearing so that they know they are understood has made a huge difference. Those sorts of remedies over maybe a charter would be more effective.

Does Mr. Purcell wish to add to that?

Mr. John Purcell

It is not on the charter but it is just with regard to the chilling effect. Ms McKay mentioned and I am sure Mr. Dooley would echo it as well. Usually when somebody is threatening legal action at a very early stage, the journalist gets it pretty much confirmed that there is a story worth following there as well. That has to be borne in mind. People do act in that way, but it does add that we have to very careful because of the costs.

Okay, and finally, Senator Carrigy.

I have a couple of questions, one of which is to Mr. Purcell with regard to licences and claims against radio stations maybe affecting renewal. Going back to the journalists, Mr. Purcell mentioned the words "cost" and "chilling effect" with regard to stories. There is a particular fear there when someone is writing a story. The reality is that in recent times, we have seen a significant number of cases particularly taken by members of Sinn Féin. There is a fear that proceedings will take place if a journalist writes a certain story. That fear is there not to write particular stories about particular parties. Would that be correct?

Mr. Daniel McConnell

It has to be taken on a case-by-case basis. I am a newshound. I have been a news reporter for 17 years at national level. If I have a good story, I want to shout it from the rooftops that we have this great story and we want to tell everybody about it. You are going to want to really give it gusto. You do not want to pull your punches. You do not want to necessarily duck away from the hard edge of a story. As I referred to earlier, however, when the simple asking of questions can draw a legal response, it does give you pause for thought.

Ultimately, people who are well-established and who are public figures largely know the cut and thrust of journalism, politics, etc., and things like that. They know that if it is a legitimate query, they will answer it, and they might not if it is not in their interest. However, this development of going legal, from an editor's perspective and from an individual journalist's perspective, of course, gives one pause for that. As Mr. Purcell rightly said, it does also cement in the mind that there is a story worth chasing there. Each case is very different, however. You have to almost take it case by case.

Mr. John Purcell

With regard to the licence point the Senator mentioned, we are licensed operators. We have to operate on the basis that if you are the subject of regular complaints that have been upheld with you, it will impact on the renewal of your licence because you have to prove that you are of good character and you have operated your broadcasting service responsibly, and if you are found by the regulator to have repeatedly breached the various codes, that would determine that. Therefore, there are teeth in the complaints procedure that we answer to.

Okay. If Senator Carrigy is happy with that, then we can move on. I thank him very much. I call Senator Hoey, who is hopefully joining us virtually on screen.

I thank everyone for their presentations. We talk about how most of the people who avail of the Press Council of Ireland are ordinary citizens and the options that are there for them. Can the witnesses talk a little bit about the broader awareness? I do not know how many people I know would know about the Press Council of Ireland, which is possibly a problem with my friend circle. The witnesses might tease out a little more for me the importance of that awareness piece on the funding and how people can access that.

Obviously, it is a vital issue. Are the people who need to be aware of the council's work actually aware of it?

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I was struck by hearing a number of people say that it is easier to pull a story than try to defend it. This was in the context of the long-term impact of running a story on a particular issue. I would like to tease that out. If something is newsworthy, it is newsworthy. There are lots of issues I do not think are newsworthy but that others consider to be so. Without being dramatic, this issue has an impact on democracy. Where stories have to be pulled, that has an impact on journalists and individuals by way of wearing them down. Will the witnesses comment anecdotally on the impact that has on the morale of publications and journalists? Morale might not be the right word but I hope our guests understand the point I am making.

Ms Susan McKay

I will take the first part of the Senator's question, which was about awareness of the Press Council of Ireland and Office of the Press Ombudsman. All of our member publications carry a small notice - I would argue that it may be a bit too small - stating that the publication is a member of the Press Council of Ireland. People will be aware of the council through that. If they are interested, they can then look up the website and find out more. I would like to do much more publication education work to make sure people know we are there, first, and also that they know how to use the process.

Looking at our complaints statistics, we see that a lot of people do not make their complaint well. They complain about people who are not members of the council and they do not understand they must first write to the editor of the publication citing what is their complaint, what part of the code of principles they feel has been breached, etc. We want to make sure people know how to use the code intelligently. It is about opening up a proper dialogue between the press and the public, which is really healthy for the former as well as for the latter. Newspapers want to know what the public wants, what people find offensive and what people do not understand. For example, many people do not understand the basis on which court reporting is done. That is not good.

That is my response to the first part of the Senator's question. It is probably more for the industry members to respond to the second part of her question.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

I would like to provide a footnote to that. As mentioned, most of our complainants are ordinary people. The press council acts as a kind of court of appeal, which further strengthens the system. There are not that many appeals against Ms McKay's decisions but there are some - ten or 12 a year. I go back to the political point that we have noticed a growing trend of people connected with the far right using our procedures to object to specific articles. There was a taster of this during the Covid period when there was a flood of complaints about what was found, in every case, to be legitimate newspaper coverage of the pandemic. I would not say this is a huge phenomenon but it is one we have noticed. In the latter part of last year, we had two or three applications that came from that particular angle.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

The Senator is right that there is a problem if the optics are that she and her friends do not know about the work of the press council and the ombudsman. We are acutely aware and hugely supportive of their work but we need the public to know about it. I will give a simple example. People often ask us how much it costs to place a wedding photograph in our newspaper, to which we reply that it costs nothing and has never cost anything. We know that but if the reader does not know it, there clearly is a problem. On the same basis, there is a need for greater awareness of the work of the Press Ombudsman and the press council.

Ms McKay will not take it the wrong way when I say I have had limited dealings with the ombudsman over the years. She and her predecessors, John Horgan and Peter Feeney, are all very fair-minded people. Likewise, Bernadette Grogan, case officer at the Press Ombudsman, is an absolute rock of sense. Senator Hoey is right as well about weeding out complaints that really are not complaints at all. That will all happen. I find the press council to be a very fair forum to deal with. Engaging with the process is a lot of work; the same amount of work from my perspective as would be involved if we were going through the courts. However, there is not the same cost involved. That is the only difference. Engaging with the council and ombudsman is not a get out of jail free card. It takes a lot of time. We must justify what we have done and if we are wrong, we must apologise for what we did. It is all done in a very measured and reasonable way.

Going back to the Senator's first point, to which the ombudsman responded very well, if there is a lack of awareness, we have a responsibility as an industry, both nationally and locally, to increase that awareness. It is to our benefit that people know there is an alternative to court action.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

On Senator Hoey's point about the chain of effects, there are implications for journalism at both local and national level. It is a multifaceted consideration because it does not just apply where one is going up against a big corporation or a wealthy individual with deep pockets. If we end up in litigation with someone with limited or no means but who feels aggrieved at being libelled or defamed, even if we win the case, we stand to lose a lot of money because the costs will be unrecoverable. That is a consideration in respect of every story that is written and given prominence. I often find in journalism that the story that trips one up is the 300-word story on page 9. They are the ones that can cause the most difficulty. If there is a spicy story or one we know could be quite combative, we take the responsibility for that. None of my reporters recklessly goes after people or recklessly looks to destroy anybody's reputation. However, if we feel there is a legitimate reason for pursuing a story, we will do so.

Does Senator Hoey have further questions or is she happy with the responses?

I thank the witnesses for their replies. I am struck by the comment about the far right. As alluded to previously, we are coming into a big 12-month period for elections. It is up to all of us to keep an eye on how those actors may operate in ways that continue to infringe on democracy, reporting and so on. I have no further questions.

I will be as brief as possible as I expect a vote to be called at any moment in the Dáil. The session we had in the audiovisual room was incredibly interesting. In fairness, the witnesses did not have it all their own way and we heard both sides of the story. We listened to the experiences of journalists and we also heard from a number of TDs who felt aggrieved by certain incidents. It was a really good discussion.

The bottom line for me is to address what is happening in terms of the limitations being put on the press. As Senator Cassells said, it is about democracy and the democratic process. I firmly believe that the accelerated rise in disinformation and in the far right, which we have discussed, is down to the fact, as Mr. McConnell mentioned in reference to the editorial process, that people are facing sleepless nights, stress and a chilling effect before publishing a story. Yet, on social media platforms like TikTok, Facebook and Instagram, an individual could stand in front of a building recently talking about the tragic stabbing of a five-year-old in Dublin and assert she was near death, while her family watched, and there were absolutely no repercussions or consequences for that individual. This is happening right across social media. Meanwhile, the press is bound by the requirement to get the facts right as far as possible. That is leading to a situation whereby fake news and incorrect information are widely circulated and the really important role the press had in reporting factual information is being diminished. It is incredibly important that we address this from a political point of view as much as anything else.

Mr. McConnell referred to the serious harm test and applying that to the press council and the proceedings it takes. Will he expand on that? He mentioned there should be a risk where someone fails the serious harm test.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

The definition of a serious harm test is very limited but it basically provides that a statement is not defamatory unless its publication has caused or is likely to cause serious harm to the reputation of the claimant or has caused or is likely to cause serious financial loss to the claimant.

That obviously applies in the courts when a defamation case is taken but it is not the case with the Press Council of Ireland.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

No.

Mr. Michael Kealey

No. We are calling for the introduction of a serious harm test because there currently is not one. Without getting unduly legal about this, if something is written which is wrong and proved to be defamatory one does not actually have to prove that one has suffered any damage. The damage is presumed. What has happened in other jurisdictions like the United Kingdom is that a low bar has been introduced. This means that if someone is going to incur the enormous expense of going to court, there should be some form of serious harm that a person has suffered. That is, in effect, an attempt to try to weed out the very top and very bottom.

Very briefly, what are the risks if one fails that?

Mr. Michael Kealey

If one does not pass the serious harm test, one cannot continue to sue. There are all of the other options open to people, such as going to the press council, mediation and all of that. It is, in effect, an attempt to try to stop two things. The first is nuisance complaints from people who have no money because organisations will not get the money back at the end. It has been accepted by the Government in terms of the legislation dealing with what we call retail defamation, such as a statement that someone has stolen something out of Supermac's or whatever, that there should be a low level.

Mr. Michael Kealey

The other thing it does is stops very wealthy people who have limited interaction with this jurisdiction from coming here. That is a problem we are currently facing. People from all over the world-----

I will have to cut Mr. Kealey off there. I have a number of other questions to get through. The message about the serious harm test and risk of failure is loud and clear. One of the great things about the committee is that we are covered by Dáil privilege, etc. We have the ability to speak freely.

My next question is addressed to any journalist in the radio or media sphere who wants to answer. Recent media coverage suggests that there is a feeling that Sinn Féin is using defamation cases more frequently and is taking more lawsuits as a way to perhaps silence the press or media. Is there evidence that defamation cases are being taken more frequently by politicians? Do the witnesses feel this is a method of trying to silence the media and press?

Mr. Dave O'Connell

On a local level, I would say there is not. In respect of Galway, I know of two politicians who went through the Press Council of Ireland to resolve issues, one current and one former. I am not aware of any politicians in Galway who have taken cases. I am not aware of any in dealing with the provincial papers. This often happens on a more national rather than a local scale.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

At a national level, the number of cases involving politicians and national media organisations are pretty limited because we generally use the public forum to debate. There is generally a level of interaction between a political, news or editor's desk. If, for example, I or my newspaper goes over the top on a particular politician there is immediate recourse. That is generally how things have tended to happen.

A number of cases have gone to court - I am loath to talk about any live cases - but any case that involves a senior politician going against media is high stakes on both sides. Mr. Kealey and Mr. Ruadhán Mac Cormaic made the point in a briefing in the AV room before Christmas that a defamation case will not serve the plaintiff let alone the defendant well because of the length of time it takes to get to court and the fact that costs escalate. By the time something comes to court, most people have forgotten the original offence. It does not really resolve matters.

Obviously, there has been a lot of commentary in the in the public domain about one political party, but in my experience as editor of the Business Post we have not had any legal interactions with a politician as of yet. I will not add to the public commentary on that.

That is fair enough. It is pretty interesting that across national and local media there does not seem to be an increase in the prevalence of politicians taking defamation actions. Obviously, it does happen. Would the witnesses be prepared to say there is a political party that takes these actions on a more regular basis than others? Is it balanced right across the political sphere?

Mr. Séamus Dooley

I do not think there is evidence of that. Clearly, there are live cases, one of which I have a particular concern about. I will not mention the parties. An individual journalist has been sued, which has implications. Without going through a history lesson, the reality is that there is a history of politicians from all parties taking cases. One of the most famous cases was the Reynolds case. The late Albert Reynolds was adamant that the fact that he was a politician did not mean he did not have the right to use defamation laws. He was very blunt and upfront on that point.

I encourage politicians to use restraint. The point made at the beginning of the meeting was that defamation actions can threaten the future of a newspaper. One action could wipe out a regional or national paper. That should give people pause for thought. If we accept as one arm of democracy that newspapers are fundamental, then there is an onus on those are part of that to ask whether they have to do something and if there is another way of settling a difference.

My final question relates to my original point. I refer to the restrictions press and radio journalists are bound by in terms of what they are published compared to what we published on social media with no threat of recourse or any proceedings. Is that eroding journalism and the impact of journalism?

Mr. Dave O'Connell

No only is it eroding it, it is turning it on its head because we are now perceived as the big bad wolf. We are the traditional mainstream media which is an easy stick to beat us with. The reality is that we are accountable. At no point in these proceedings or anywhere else are we looking for a free pass. We will face up to the mistakes that we make, but we are alone in that. Social media does not have to face up to the mistakes they make, yet we are the ones that are dammed through social media and all of that comment.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

From a national perspective, it is almost head wrecking. We can spend a lot of time trying to verify a story and get to a point where we simply cannot publish it because of the restrictions of the libel or defamation laws at the moment, but we then see something being widely reported or spoken about on social media. That is a deep frustration.

Mr. John Purcell

I would echo that as well. I will perhaps put it more explicitly. The mainstream media is becoming a target, whether through complaints procedures or activities seeking to undermine our credibility.

Thank you very much.

I welcome all our guests. I wish to continue the discussion on concerns around the use of SLAPPS. In recent days, there was a high-profile case in the High Court in Belfast. I would like to get an understanding of the significance of that judgment and the implications it may have for freelance journalists and broadcasters across Northern Ireland and Ireland. A judge said that the case had the hallmarks of a SLAPP case and also deemed it to be scandalous in its nature. How concerned are the witnesses about the increase in the number of defamation cases being taken by politicians, in respect of the judgment made on 8 January?

Mr. Daniel McConnell

I thank the Deputy. The advent of SLAPP cases, as they are known, is a serious and concerning development. I will not talk about any individual case but will instead speak in a broad context. Any mechanism that is used to try to prevent the publication of the story is something we have to combat robustly and fight against because our job is to put stuff in the public domain. Not to talk about any individual politician, but we often put stuff in the public domain that will make the lives of politicians a little bit uncomfortable. That is the natural tension of democracy and what we should be doing.

When legal letters come in and actions are taken clearly to prevent publication they have to be fought against. It is a worrying development from an editors perspective. We are hamstrung by the limitations not only of the commercial pressures we feel but the pretty restrictive defamation culture we have long had to suffer here in Ireland. We have long called for reform of this law to try to give us a more balanced playing field to play against. The law that is going to through the Oireachtas is not perfect.

If someone decides to take an action against me as the editor of the Business Post or against the Business Post itself, the onus is on me to prove we did not defame them and not on the individual to prove we defamed them. That imbalance in how the game is played is significant. Then we add the fear of costs escalating and the threat of closure if it goes the whole hog. The worst case scenario is a ten-day High Court action where costs are escalating and we are on the wrong end of that. We are into millions of euro at that point because barristers are not cheap and battling a case is significant. That is the last place we want to go but, ultimately, if you as an editor or you as an organisation feel you are in the right, you have to defend that case and go to that, but you are taking a big risk in doing so.

I will ask Mr. Dooley about the significance of this judgment for his members.

Mr. Séamus Dooley

It is significant. The language used by Master Bell within the judgment was more significant. It is also timely in that there is a review of defamation law in Northern Ireland. The serious harm test applies to England and Wales but does not apply to Northern Ireland and that is one of the issues. We have been looking at a submission on defamation law in the North and, specifically in the area of strategic litigation, we would look for it to be outlawed the same as it is here.

The issue highlighted in both cases the Deputy referred to and in other cases is the targeting of freelance journalists and the vulnerability they feel. One of the issues we cannot underestimate the impact of, and obviously cost is huge, is the time it takes and the pressure it puts on an editor and on the individual journalist who has made a mistake and has that cloud hanging over them for a long time. It also has an impact on the person taking the action. The idea of litigation that lasts over a number of years and the fear of that all has an impact. When we talk about the chilling effect, if someone is suing you for libel, you will think twice before you write a story about them. You may have to if they are a public figure and the story is in the public domain, but there is an ongoing tension there between someone who has a case running and the journalist's obligation to report on them. That is not just in the case of politicians. It also applies to business people, sports people and ordinary citizens.

Does Mr. Dooley feel that the fact the Press Council of Ireland and the Office of the Press Ombudsman do not have financial compensation makes them unsuitable for complaints?

Mr. Séamus Dooley

They were never intended to deal with defamation. I do not believe they should have financial penalties. If somebody wants financial compensation, they go to the courts. That is what the courts exist for. The model that currently exists would not be suitable to imposing financial penalties. I was on the steering committee, as were other people in the room, that established the Press Council of Ireland. There were long debates about that but ultimately we came to the conclusion that the Press Council is not rivalling the court system. It was never intended that there would be financial penalties.

I ask Ms McKay how the campaign for public figures, including politicians, to use the alternative redress scheme is going.

Ms Susan McKay

It is too soon to say because it is relatively recently that we started to highlight this particular thing because of the supposed imminence of the new legislation. However, it has become known among everybody as the long-awaited defamation Bill rather than just the new defamation Bill. Therefore it is too soon to say, but as the chairperson of the Press Council of Ireland pointed out, we have a history of getting complaints from public figures and politicians from right across the board in any case.

I would put it slightly differently from my chairman when he said we welcomed the Taoiseach's comments about politicians using the Press Council. I would say we welcomed the Taoiseach's support for our campaign to get people to use the Press Council. We need to keep drumming on about this and it is something people need to be serious about. There is no reason for politicians to go to law if the complaint they have could be brought to the Press Council and the Office of the Press Ombudsman. There is no reason for somebody to not go to law if they feel they need the financial compensation, and I agree with the NUJ on that. However, there is no need for politicians to go that route. It would show a very good example to the public if they came to the Office of the Press Ombudsman and used the Press Council of Ireland's code of practice instead.

It is something I hope to escalate in the coming period to make sure everybody is aware we are asking for this. It would be good when members of the public start to ask politicians why they are going to law on something and why they did not go to the Press Council and the Office of the Press Ombudsman.

I have a question about the expansion of the remit to online publications. How does the Office of the Press Ombudsman and the Press Council of Ireland intend to adapt its code of practice and the complaints handling process to deal with online media and publications?

Ms Susan McKay

Does Deputy Dillon mean online publications by broadcasters?

I mean the unique challenges that will be presented.

Ms Susan McKay

Online publications have been members of the Press Council for quite a while. The recognition in law is quite belated. It is welcome because it puts it down in print but it is something that has been the case for quite a time. What is sometimes challenging is to check out that publications are giving due prominence to their publication of, for example, my decision or the decision of the Press Council or an appeal of one of my decisions. That is slightly different in online publications than in print publications but the principles are exactly the same.

It could become challenging if we were appointed to or if we did take on the role of dealing with publications by broadcast organisations. That would mean that some parts of the output of a broadcaster - those which are broadcast on air, whether on radio, TV or otherwise - would be statutorily regulated whereas our regulation is self-regulation. It is voluntary and people join the Press Council. They are not compelled to do so. That is a really important principle.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

On the difference between online and print, a lot of the cases we have concern publications which have both an online dimension, as many in the area will do, and print. We had one case at appeal level when Ms McKay's predecessor, Mr. Peter Feeney, was in office and it was interesting because it is far easier to correct an online publication. A mistake can be corrected immediately by changing the online version. With print that is not the case. A correction has to be published somewhere. We had an interesting question where the previous ombudsman had held that a publication had not published a sufficiently adequate apology and correction. We took the view, as a council, that in fact it had taken the appropriate action by changing the article and by highlighting that particular point.

Interestingly, there have been negotiations at EU level between the Council and the Parliament on anti-SLAPP legislation. That is now very close to completion and will set a European framework for these things, and it ought to mean at the minimum - of course the UK is not part of the European Union and is the principal external market for us - that we, at a European level at least, will be singing from the same hymn sheet.

My final question concerns qualified privilege in defamation cases. What does that entail and what impact does it have on cases that are presented to the Office of the Press Ombudsman and the Press Council of Ireland?

Ms Susan McKay

I have been forgetting to switch my microphone on. I hope that does not mean I have not been heard. It means, basically, in a nutshell, we can discuss things without being at risk of being sued ourselves.

In how many cases has a decision of the Office of the Press Ombudsman and the Press Council of Ireland had an impact?

Ms Susan McKay

I am not sure what the Deputy means. Does he mean that people have or have not gone on to sue?

That is correct.

Ms Susan McKay

In most cases people do not go on to sue. They do see us as being an alternative dispute resolution process. Our case is that there is nothing to stop a person using both routes.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

There is an issue within. We have had discussions inside the Press Council about whether there is a risk of judicial review of our decisions.

There are different legal views on this matter and it is something we as a council have to look at in more depth. I am not aware that anybody has ever sued the Press Council or taken a judicial review case but, because of the money, if there were such a case taken against us, that would have devastating financial consequences. I am optimistic that with the qualified privilege that was mentioned, we are in a fairly strong position to resist this but it cannot be ruled out of hand.

It is perfect timing because there is a vote in the Dáil. I will have to suspend the meeting, with the members' agreement, to allow TDs to vote on the Order of Business. Is that agreed? Agreed. The witnesses have ten minutes, if they want to take a breather.

Sitting suspended at 3 p.m. and resumed at 3.21 p.m.

I welcome everybody back. I call Deputy Pa Daly, who has eight minutes.

I thought for a second we were being shut down by a Sinn Féin spokesman when the Order of Business was called but not quite. Those days are gone, although one would not know it from the tenor of some of the questions here this afternoon.

Most politicians have probably been defamed or misquoted, particularly online. I am somewhat encouraged by the responses to some of the questions that were asked perhaps unwisely by some of my colleagues today. It reminds me of the advice that is usually given to young solicitors to not ask a question unless they know what the answer will be. The Government parties may be still set in a 1980s section 31 mindset. In any event, I am somewhat encouraged by the responses that were given by the people here today.

We need effective mechanisms when people feel they have been defamed. That goes for politicians, media people and ordinary citizens, all of whom have taken cases using the libel laws in recent times. We need a system to deliver justice and ensure that free speech is there in an efficient, faster and cheap way for all. We are up for any changes that may be brought in.

On my own background, for a very brief time I studied communications in DCU. Many of my classmates went on to work in media outlets, some of whom were subeditors who were totally cleaned out by the media organisations that felt the need to dispense with their services - to their own detriment. When I was a younger solicitor, I knew many people working in the media. Similar to what Mr. Dave O’Connell said, The Kerryman used to have I think five sports journalists, subeditors and probably six to eight news reporters in the area. It was not Mediahuis at the time, but the organisation that took over got rid of them all, depriving the newspaper of much local knowledge.

I worked as a solicitor for many years and many cases came to my door. Many of them were due to lack of experience in court reporting or similar small-type situations. The local media outlets, including radio, are usually quite quick to deal with any of those cases. However, those other cases are with more national papers. There is a system in place where the amount of damages you can receive if you issue an immediate apology and deal with it in a fair and efficient way, like what we have heard from some of the speakers, takes the heat out of the situation. However, I had experiences of other cases where the amount of compensation was drip-fed, the apology was not on the same page as the original alleged libel and also situations where they just refused to deal with it and cost themselves money in the long term. I also had experiences of people who were deceased and family members contacted us to try to do something to prevent that going in and were given a firm “You can’t libel the dead”, more or less, and “Tough luck”. If they were all as responsible as the attitude given by Mr. O’Connell today, there might not be a need for this.

One or two points were made during the course of the afternoon. An interesting point was made regarding an injuries board and the need for juries. I am not convinced that getting rid of the juries will make cases shorter, deal with cases more efficiently and reduce costs. I am not convinced. The example was given of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. Cases of libel have a different statute of limitations from many other cases; for example, it is six years for contract, two years for personal injuries but only one year before proceedings must be issued for libel – at least that is what it was up to a few years ago. Juries were abolished in personal injuries cases probably 40 years ago now. Have insurance premiums been reduced as a result? We were told that they would be back then. We were told that when the injuries board would come in, insurance premiums would be reduced, but that has not happened. I accept, however, that there should be a newer, fresher system, but it will take buy-in from all sides.

I have a number of questions and one is on the Press Council. Looking at the statistics on the 260 complaints received, it seems that less than 20% were either decided, complaint resolved by the editor or were ongoing at the end of 2021, which was the last year I was able to find information on. Is the three-month deadline too short? There certainly does not seem to be enough information out there on the workings of the Press Council. What I could see is the number of cases that were instigated by unauthorised third parties against people who were not members of the Press Council. What do the witnesses think about those? If I were advising somebody to take a case knowing they had to have proceedings issued within 12 months, taking three months to go into the Press Council means you are losing valuable time in getting cases off the ground. Like it or not, solicitors will only advise someone to do something if it is the best interest of their client and I do not think there is any getting around that. I am sure Mr. Kealey will agree with me on that point.

My other question is for some of the other organisations. Do the witnesses think that journalists should be indemnified, freelance or otherwise, which would take the heat out of some of the complaints or worries of the journalists in question?

Ms Susan McKay

I do not think the three-month deadline is too short. One of the things the Press Council has always boasted is the fact that it is a fast service. You ideally want to be dealing with a complaint during the period when the issue is still relevant. Three months is a decent length of time for people to bring a complaint. It is not complicated to bring a complaint; I think the problem is that people need to be educated a bit more about how to do so, how to do so intelligently and how to use the code to get the best likelihood of the outcome they want to get. I think three months is a reasonable amount of time to get a complaint in. There is no evidence that it is causing difficulties for people. It allows time for people to choose to go a different route if they want to do so.

Would Ms McKay accept that the workings of the Press Council, who it represents and what cases it can take might not be as well known as it should be?

Ms Susan McKay

That is exactly the point I have been making today and on every other opportunity that I get a chance. We need to be able to advertise more widely and in as many forums as possible what we offer and what people need to do to access what we provide. It is an excellent service and it is something that is freely available to every citizen. People are frustrated by the fact that they cannot afford to go to law. They have the same sort of worries about money as journalists have, and about the money it is going to cost them to defend a case. People have worries about how they are going to vindicate their good name by going to law. One can come to the Press Council and my office with a far broader range of complaints than one can bring to law, so it makes sense to come to the Press Council. We just need to make sure that as many people as possible know about us and how to use our services.

For example, I do not think a lot of people know that representative organisations can use the Press Council to make complaints. I have to make a decision as to whether a complainant is personally affected by the issue they are complaining about. Representative organisations can make a complaint on behalf of their members or the people they represent. The Press Council can be used by a very broad range of people but we just need to make sure they all know about it. I am not saying I am absolutely certain that the number of cases that will come is going to be a lot bigger than it is now. It is just that it is untested, and to be sure that people have confidence in the Irish media, we need to have that awareness.

I thank Ms McKay. The point on indemnification was not addressed.

Would somebody else like to respond?

Mr. Michael Kealey

With regard to indemnification, it is certainly my experience - I have been doing this for a long time - that the newspapers usually indemnify the individual journalists. However, there are a couple of issues around that. If the individual journalist and the company are sued, and an award is made, it is joint and several liability. If the company cannot pay it, the journalist is still on the hook. One of the things we have found in recent years - this does not relate to politicians, and I do not want to be raising this in that sense - is there are instances where we have journalists who set up websites themselves because they attract stories in. They publish stories that have appeared in the newspapers, and they are sued with regard to their own websites rather than that. That is a slightly worrying trend, and they cannot be indemnified with regard to that. That is a problem. Generally speaking, however, the news organisations obviously try to indemnify their journalists but I suspect this does not prevent some journalists from having sleepless nights.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

On the wider issue of those newspapers having insurance with regard to claims, the reality is a lot of newspapers either have a very high level of excess before any sort of insurance kicks in, or they do not. It is just not available in Ireland anymore. Any settlement is coming out of day-to-day or running costs. That is a very real consideration.

What is the usual threshold for the amount of money when the newspapers have to start paying out of their own money?

Mr. Daniel McConnell

It can depend. It can be-----

Or, should I say, when the insurance companies have to pay.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

In some newspapers, there would be no coverage whatsoever. In others, there would be an excess in six-figure terms, and then others could be much higher than that.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

In a local context, we have no libel insurance and it is cost prohibitive. The last time that we dealt with this, the threshold was €30,000. We would be on the hook for that, and very rarely, funnily enough, did the cases go higher than that. However, the premium went up accordingly, so it is many years since we have had libel insurance.

If Deputy Daly is happy with that I will move on and call on Senator Malcolm Byrne. The floor is his, and he has eight minutes.

I thank all the witnesses for coming today. At the outset, I want to say that it is critical for democracy that we have a balanced and fair media, and for the most part in Ireland, we have been fortunate that this is the case. It is right, that as journalists and media organisations, the witnesses hold us and others to account. We are not always going to agree. I have never taken a legal action, and I would agree with Danny in that I have generally found that if something is incorrect and one rings up the newspaper, radio station or whatever, there is an effort made. People make mistakes and it generally tends to be solved. It is important that there is a right to fair comment but an individual also has a right to their reputation. I think it is critical, and I might suggest that out of this committee, and speaking to Danny's point, the case that we have to have is about the defamation legislation. It has to strike the right balance of proof and I would like to suggest that this committee would express that view, and if the legislation is going to the justice committee, we do it. We should also express that view to the Minister, Deputy Martin, as something that is critical and that we believe must be implemented during the lifetime of this Oireachtas.

Are all colleagues agreeable to doing that as a proposal of suggestion? Agreed.

The challenge is that the lines between what is print, what is broadcast and what is online now are blurring, and that might refer to some of the issues I will raise. Obviously, we now have the challenge of citizen journalists, as they define themselves, who do not necessarily follow the rules or standards of a lot of people with whom the witnesses represent or engage.

I find the idea of individual journalists being targeted chilling. It has a chilling effect, certainly in the case of Malachi O'Doherty. Rather than indemnifying individual journalists, I would encourage Deputy Daly, as his party's justice spokesperson, who is substituting on behalf of Deputy Chris Andrews, that rather than a member of his parliamentary party targeting an individual journalist with a defamation action - we know about the case - to reflect on the mechanisms we have discussed.

It is unfortunate that the Senator is bringing up individual cases in here.

Deputy Daly is substituting for a member of this committee. This committee has been discussing, over a long period of time, the critical importance of an independent media. Defamation is part of that. The reason this is on the agenda is that we look at non-court-based mechanisms to resolve some of these issues.

Yes, and we have been dealing with them in the justice committee also.

The Senator's point is to the Press Ombudsman.

My issue is here is that we need to support. It goes back to the discussion earlier, that there are alternative mechanisms and if somebody disputes something that a journalist raises, that they would raise those issues.

I want to come back to Dave's point about how close some newspapers are, in that one bad legal judgment could make newspapers fold. How close is that in reality, on the ground? We might even talk about the local radio stations or national press as well.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

I am touching wood. When I left the office this morning, we do not have such a case on hand. I hope, when I go back, that we do not have one on hand. It is to illustrate the point more than anything else.

To explain, The Connacht Tribune is a single operator. It is not part of a group. It is owned by the same people and the same families that have owned the paper since 1909. They are local business people, and we are not part of any big group. That is not to say that bigger groups would not be in equal trouble if there was a case at hand. I have mentioned one case that cost over €100,000. The reality is, I would honestly fear that if another one of those happened to us, it might not kill us but we would be very close to the wall.

Would this be similar for some of the national press and independent broadcasters?

Mr. John Purcell

Yes. It is a precarious sector in many cases whereby one is at the mercy of large, unexpected legal expenses but also recessions and so on and so forth. We are not on stable ground.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

One other perspective is that the decline in the printed advertising revenue market in Ireland has been stark. That undermines or undercuts a lot of this discussion. If we cannot wash our face, we cannot survive. In 2007, the national publishers' advertising revenue was €367 million. The closing estimate for 2023 is under €94 million, so that is a sizeable drop. It is a different landscape completely.

On my earlier point, it may be that one is operating with no safety net of insurance, and one gets hit for a €50,000 or €60,000 settlement. As Michael Kealey and Dave O'Connell said earlier on, a large proportion of these cases do not even make court, and one is settling either on the steps of the court or long before.

All of that has a day-to-day impact that means you can hire one or two fewer journalists in a year. It has a direct impact on margins and all of that impacts the journalism you can do. This is not an abstract concept with which we are dealing. This is real day-to-day money. That is where it feeds in. When such a letter arrives on your desk on a Monday morning or Sunday night, you have to realise that if you do not deal with the issue pretty quickly, there will be a real impact on how you do your day-to-day business. That is not just at local level but also at national level.

I am conscious of time and want to move on to the challenges of misinformation, disinformation and other issues. As politicians, we are concerned about elections and we are moving into a big period for elections. There is a famous case about a false tweet during a presidential election debate and the potential impact it had. We are obviously going to be dealing with many of the concerns around artificial intelligence, AI, and its misuse. We have already seen its impact and some media outlets have fallen for it. How would our guests respond to cases of AI-generated content? How will media outlets be able to determine what is a deep fake?

My next question is for the Press Council, whose credibility is important. We have talked already about the rise of the far right and some of the extremes. I note from the Press Council's handbook that one of the clear principles on prejudice for its membership states, "[Newspapers and magazines] shall not publish material intended or likely to cause grave offence or stir up hatred against an individual or group on the basis of their race, religion, nationality, colour, ethnic origin, membership of the Travelling community, gender, sexual orientation, marital status, disability, illness or age." Straight away that prompts the question how Gript Media was permitted into the Press Council, given that principle. In asking that question, I fully anticipate being targeted by Gript Media and some of its followers. However, it is an important question. In an age of disinformation and concern for those quality standards of journalism that we all hold dearly, and which Mr. Dooley represents through his NUJ members, we have to be concerned about news channels. There are others. It is important that those standards are maintained.

Mr. John Purcell

On deep fakes, we do not know because we are only at the tip of the iceberg. We do not even know the threat they pose, but it is a grave threat. It is not only about deep fakes but also the targeting of individual staff and so on. The independent radio sector as it stands will be challenged to provide the service that the political system has become used to in the forthcoming elections due to the radicalisation of politics, deep fakes and the onerous regulatory burden we have. That can be turned into financial losses if someone wants to weaponise the complaints system and take legal action, which has happened. It was not a political party in the instance to which I refer and I cannot go into detail. However, it is difficult.

Libel insurance was mentioned. In the radio sector, we are obliged, as part of our broadcasting licence, to have libel insurance. It has become very hard to source and the cost of it has increased hugely in recent years. I am not sure of the statistics but I would not be surprised if that increase was of the nature of 50%. That is another weight on our viability.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

From a national perspective, there was a high-profile case last year. I tweeted that night "but for the grace of God" because it could happen to all of us. What was impressive was how the editor in question, Mr. Ruadhán Mac Cormaic, handled the situation. He fronted up and took responsibility as an editor. The publication addressed the issue pretty quickly. It was a wake-up call for the industry that if you are going to accept a piece, particularly from an outside contributor, make sure you have done your checks, dotted the i's and crossed the t's. Heading into an election, it is not only the threat of AI we need to worry about. We need also to worry about the role of foreign actors coming in, as we have already seen in elections in the past five or ten years. All of those threats are part and parcel of our due diligence heading into an election and how we do out coverage, what checks and safety mechanisms we, as an editorial team, have in place. It is a live concern.

Mr. Séamus Dooley

I do not want to sound too Pollyannaish, but I think the challenges of social media, disinformation and AI are an opportunity and the media industry needs to come out fighting. I agree with Ms McKay. I think the membership of the Press Council or adherence to the code of conduct of the NUJ, for instance, is a mark of quality and should be defended. It is part of the contract of truth with readers and listeners. I hope I am right to say that over time, people will learn, perhaps through media literacy, to differentiate between what is credible journalism and what is dangerous fiction.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

I will say facetiously that our AI content is limited to the farming page and has a different context.

Farmers are now using both types of AI.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

On a more fundamental point, credible sources will always conquer fake news. One of the great advantages of working in local journalism is that when covering elections, we cover the individuals. We know the individuals and deal with them directly as they deal with us. That eliminates the type of data scraping that might be a possibility elsewhere. It is very local. I said earlier that people can contact the editor. All of our local politicians can contact us and we can contact them. It eliminates that possibility to some extent. That is not, however, to say that the threat of the other kind of AI is not something that is on our minds.

Mr. John Purcell

What I had in mind is the very real AI of fake audio clips, which I think-----

There was supposedly an example at Davos this morning.

Mr. John Purcell

That is going to bring challenges for all broadcasters.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

The constitution of the Press Council states essentially that any publication that circulates in Ireland or a part of it is entitled to be a member. There is a procedure whereby periodicals or publications can apply. There are various criteria, which are examined. We ask whether they can pay the entrance fee and the annual subscription, but do we know who the owners are and is there evidence they are actually publishing? It is obviously a two-way street. The vast majority of publications are members of the Press Council. It is a quality mark and at the same time, it imposes obligations. As the Senator said, there is a code of 11 principles, including the one he cited. If a publication is believed by a member of the public or representative group to have breached one of those principles, a complaint can be made to the Press Council. If such a publication were not a member of the Press Council, there would be no avenue for them to be pursued. I do not want to get into individual cases. It is not for the Press Council itself to scrutinise how its member publications are performing. We depend on there being complaints.

There are disciplinary procedures within the Press Council that can result in the expulsion of members. Fortunately, that has never had to be done and I hope it never will be. Another fundamental point, as we mentioned earlier, is that not only do publications have to respond to complaints but they also have to publish our decisions, no matter how much they dislike what is being said. Until now at least, there has never been a case where a member publication has not printed an apology or correction, which is a positive thing. I do not want to speculate about the conditions where, as Mr. Dooley said, the kind of contract between the Press Council and publications would break down. Of course, as the media landscape becomes ever more diverse, it is something we have to keep in the back of our minds.

Ms Susan McKay

May I mention a couple of things? The Senator made a point about the targeting of individual journalists. The press ombudsman process that is being set up by the Press Council deals with publications. I hold a publication responsible for what is published by it and not the individual journalist who wrote the article or the individual photographer who took the photograph.

That is a reassuring aspect of our process. As Mr. Montgomery pointed out, no one can take membership of the Press Council for granted. If people do not share the values of the Press Council, that will emerge and they will not be able to remain members. That is all constantly under review with all members of the Press Council. I also echo what the chairman said, that if people have complaints about the behaviour of journalists or organisations that are members of the Press Council, they should use the process and take the opportunity of being in the Press Council and make complaints based on breaches on the code of practice. The Press Council's code of practice is a fine document, based on respect for human rights. Organisations that are in the Press Council have to uphold those principles, which include decency, respect and treating people properly. Some of those who define themselves as citizen journalists at the moment do not behave properly towards members of the public or towards journalists from the mainstream media. I hear frequently from journalists in our member publications who are being subjected to threats and bad behaviour at public events. That is not acceptable under the code of conduct of the Press Council.

I welcome that statement.

Did Mr. Purcell have something final to say?

Mr. John Purcell

No.

Okay, I thank Senator Byrne for those questions and call on Deputy Cannon. The floor is his.

I thank the witnesses for joining us today for a conversation that has been illuminating and helpful to us, as legislators, in how we approach a topic that is becoming exceptionally challenging. Mr. Dooley used a beautiful phrase a few minutes ago, "contract of truth". Public representatives sign up to such a contract when we first put our names forward for election. I have concerns, which I have stated publicly recently, that, through their use of litigation, some public representatives are seeking - it is perhaps inadvertent, but it is what they are doing ultimately - to weaken or undermine that contract. Every one of us needs to reflect on and have a great degree of pride in what we have achieved as a democracy in the past 100 years. Any objective international analysis of Ireland's press freedom and freedom of speech consistently puts us in the top ten worldwide, but we can never take that for granted. It is always under threat and perhaps it will be even more so in the next ten, 20 or 30 years. I appeal to Members of these Houses, who are an essential part of our democratic process and should champion our democracy and all it stands for, to reflect before they take any formal litigation against any member of the press, whether individual journalists or media outlets, when we have a robust, fair and transparent process provided by the Press Council. By doing the alternative, such as was done recently in one instance in the targeting of an individual journalist, they are weakening the hand of the media in general to be forensic and forthright in their analysis and reporting of how we perform as public representatives and how the Government performs. It is important to reflect on that.

We covered this topic extensively earlier. Mr. Dooley discussed earlier whether it would be a wise move for the Press Council to be able to award some kind of financial compensation to people who feel they have been defamed or their name has been in some way sullied as a result of the actions of a journalist or media outlet. Let us look at the model of the Injuries Resolution Board, formerly the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB; there are significant differences between the two, but the PIAB sets out to reduce the cost of litigation in general and give people an easily navigated and effective mechanism for taking a case for personal injury. Is any of the witnesses aware of a global example of an organisation resembling a press council that has the capacity to make small financial awards, not on the scale of what might happen in a formal litigation process, but that might seek to dissuade people from going down the litigation route and encourage them instead to pursue a press council option? We might go with that for the moment. Can Mr. Dooley delve a little further into why that is not a good idea?

Mr. Séamus Dooley

I am not aware of any. I was involved in the steering committee, chaired by Tom Mitchell and facilitated by Maurice Hayes at the early stages. There was a lot of debate about this. The view was, effectively, that a double jeopardy situation needed to be avoided. If people want to go down a legal route, they should do so. If they want an apology or correction and they want it fast, they should go to the Press Council. That was also one of the reasons for the establishment of a tight timeline. If your reputation has been damaged, you want to get it addressed as quickly as possible. If you are out for the money, to use a colloquialism, you go to the courts. Once you go down the road of money, there are solicitors. I have nothing against solicitors, but the reality is that it would turn it into a quasi-legal process, establish a different and more elaborate structure and would probably end up in judicial review territory. Others may have a different view, but that is my memory of the debate at the time.

Mr. Michael Kealey

I will add, that the general scheme of the Bill indicates that mediation would be available, in addition to the Press Council. Mediation is effectively to reach a settlement. The mediator cannot impose a financial settlement, but money can and regularly does change hands in the mediation process. It is just done in a more informal way and much earlier. The process tends to be somewhat quicker and to involve direct interaction between the parties, which we often have on a much smaller scale, with people ringing. Mediation is available and I encourage people to use it.

How extensively is that used?

Mr. Michael Kealey

It is not used extensively enough. I have been involved in a number of mediations. It is being used slightly more often that it was in the past, because frankly, the cost has become absolutely prohibitive. The other thing to note, is that mediation, a little like the Press Council, can do things the courts cannot. For example, if you sue a television company over a broadcast, you can get re-editing, which cannot happen in a court. A court can tell the television company not to show a programme again, but cannot force someone to re-edit, apologise or anything like that. Mediation allows that to happen.

Does anyone else want to comment?

Ms Susan McKay

It would be a fundamental misunderstanding of what the Press Council and Press Ombudsman do to suggest we should consider offering any kind of money, because we operate on the principle that all complaints are equal. Someone who makes a complaint that might seem to some people not to be very important could be incredibly important for a person, family or community. If we were to start saying that one complaint is worth a certain amount and another is worth a different amount, we would be introducing a system of value that has nothing to do with the values we operate under. It would be completely inappropriate.

Also, why would our member publications want to join an organisation that would potentially cost them money?

Because it would have the potential to save them significantly more money if more people were to-----

Ms Susan McKay

It is just a completely different set of values altogether.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

I find it almost impossible to imagine how it would work in all honesty, with the Press Ombudsman. I imagine almost every financial settlement would be appealed to the Press Council. I have no idea on what basis we would try to apply such a system or come to a judgment. Really, it is something we do not want and are not seeking.

The issue of strategic lawsuits against public participation, SLAPPs, is another, perhaps recent, development in the Irish media landscape, where one could credibly argue that some people are attempting to instigate litigation, simply to silence the media on a particular matter or political viewpoint.

Mr. McConnell mentioned earlier the significant costs involved from the moment that a notice of a lawsuit arrives on his desk. The fact that it is being defended from the very beginning means costs just ramp up. Mr. McConnell says he may never get into court.

Sweden seems to be one of the countries that seemingly protect against SLAPP culture reasonably well. I am interested in the witnesses’ perspectives on the work that Sweden is doing that could be incorporated into the Irish legislative landscape. For example, it has a cost-shifting mechanism whereby the party initiating a SLAPP lawsuit is required to bear the legal costs of the defendant if the lawsuit is deemed to be frivolous or, indeed, intended to stifle public participation. Sweden also has procedures for the early dismissal of lawsuits identified as SLAPPs, thereby preventing prolonged battles that would have two effects, namely, placing a huge burden on media outlets and the chilling of press freedom. Who are the global exemplars in managing this particular challenge, which is becoming ever more prevalent in Ireland? What can we learn from them?

Mr. Séamus Dooley

The Press Council mentioned already that there is European movement on that. If that is consistent with what the Deputy has described regarding Sweden, it is what we have in mind.

I disagree that the phenomenon is new, in a sense. We now have a name for it. We used to get gagging letters. The practice has now become pervasive and strategic. I worked for ten years as a subeditor within Independent House. There was one businessperson who, as soon as he got wind of the fact that a story was being done about him, automatically sent a solicitor’s letter, even though he did not know what the story would be about. That is actually a SLAPP; it is just that it is now more strategic.

Mr. Kealey made the important point that Ireland is now a destination for libel tourism. That is where the need for a serious harm test comes in. Action on that is vital. We are actually quite an attractive place for this.

Mr. Michael Kealey

Could I make one point on SLAPPs? There is hope that we will have EU legislation. We hope it will be incorporated into the new Bill that is going through. It will not work properly unless there is a serious harm test. If there is no serious harm test, it will be said there is absolutely no threshold. If I have a limited connection to Ireland and three people have read a particular story online in Ireland, and if there is no serious harm test, the SLAPP thing will not work. People will say they are entitled to sue, that there is no serious harm test, and that you can talk all you want. One of the problems with SLAPPs is the defamation. If we feel it is a SLAPP, every other person feels he has got a legitimate claim. Unless we have a serious harm test, SLAPPs will not work. As we have said in our submission, it is a mystery to us why a serious harm test has been introduced for retail and corporate bodies but not for the media.

Is Deputy Cannon happy with that?

We now come to my couple of minutes in which to ask a few questions. I might turn the industry witnesses in the latter part to ask them for their parting thoughts on this topic of discussion, because everything has been pretty well thrashed out. I will address Ms McKay and Mr. Montgomery first. Ms McKay talked a lot about the information campaign she is organising and has up and running to inform the public, public representatives and people in the public eye. Has a campaign like this been run before by the Press Council to inform people?

Ms Susan McKay

Perhaps not one specifically named as such, but obviously every press ombudsman and press council has done its utmost over the years to maximise awareness of the service. This is just my personal attempt. I have only been in this job for just under a year and a half, so this is my personal attempt to bring a campaigning element to it. I really hope it will significantly up the awareness of the office. What we have heard today makes it very clear that it is very important that people know there is an alternative to using defamation. With many of our members in a fragile financial situation, the ongoing situation of having to deal with the threat of SLAPPs and other forms of defamation cases is just not sustainable.

It would be encouraging for people, including public representatives, if Ms McKay could demonstrate to us what a resolution looks like.

Ms Susan McKay

It was mentioned earlier, perhaps by the chairman, that many of the cases that come to us are resolved through conciliation. We do not do mediation because, as has been stated, that can entail a legal process with money involved. Many of our cases are dealt with by our case manager, Ms Bernadette Grogan, who essentially brokers deals between newspapers and complainants to ensure everybody ends up satisfied and nobody ends up feeling hurt or abused.

What is the position on the complainants? We are trying to give people another option. If they are not interested in money but in their good name and perspective, and given Ms Kay’s important point on dignity and respect, what does comfort look like for the complainant?

Ms Susan McKay

Complainants will get a decision that takes seriously the points and complaints they have made and weighs them up against the highest possible professional and ethical standards. My decisions and the decisions of my predecessors in this job will be written in such a way as to show their complaints have been taken with due seriousness. If I find that a complaint is upheld and that the Press Council’s code of practice has been breached, and if there is not an appeal or an appeal that is not upheld, the publication must publish that with due prominence. It cannot just be something buried away in the back pages of a paper. The person will actually be able to look to the publication and see the editor has had to admit the publication has breached the Press Council’s code of practice. My understanding from our members is that this is taken very seriously. Publications do not like to have to publish decisions that find they have breached the code of principles. It is a genuine vindication for people. I am often very struck by the fact that there are people who in my view could have taken a successful defamation case but who come to the Press Council and use the code of practice instead. What they want is something different from a defamation case. They want a human response to what they consider to have been something very damaging to them in a whole range of ways. You can bring a much broader range of complaints to the Office of the Press Ombudsman than you can to the courts, and that is really important to people. People will get back to us and say they are really glad they got their decision and that it really makes their family feel a lot better. That is really important. The fact that the press has committed to this code of principles reinforces people’s belief in the media. It is really important and means a lot to people, and it is good for the press.

I wish to raise a matter that I know Mr. Montgomery talked about a little in his presentation. Could he talk to us a little more about the bar that a new outlet has to reach to become a member of the Press Council?

Mr. Rory Montgomery

The constitution is clear and refers to the publisher. Basically, it states that any publication that circulates in Ireland or any part of Ireland is entitled to membership. That has been refined a little in terms of practical procedures. The ultimate decision is made by what we call our administrative committee, which is made up of members of the industry and looks after the nuts and bolts of financing and so on. We ask for evidence that the publication actually is a publication, has been in existence for a year or more, has identifiable ownership and can be published. We ask to see copies of the publication and we get other information. There are times when we go back to people and say they have not given us what we need – these things come to the Press Council as a body first – and ask them to tell us more.

That is the bar that is passed. As I said earlier, as a rule it is not up to us to make a judgment as to whether or not a publication is meeting the high standards Ms McKay mentioned earlier. Of course, breaching principles of the code covers all sorts of things. As well as truth and accuracy, there is the mixing of fact and comment, privacy, reporting of suicide and a range of other issues. If there were to be a pattern of consistent breaching of those principles that is something the Press Council would have to carefully consider. That would equally be true if there were a refusal to publish our decisions. Again, that has not happened, thank goodness, although at times publications have been extremely reluctant to publish decisions that go against them.

The basic point is that the mechanisms and machinery will be there to suspend or expel a member or publication. No criteria are set out in detail for that, other than non-payment. It is something we have not had to face until now and I hope we will not have to face it, but we know it is an issue which is there, and we have to keep it in mind.

I will tease that out a little further. That cannot happen unless complaints are received.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

If I or Ms McKay reads, in the first instance, an article she or the members of the Press Council regard as clearly in breach of truth and accuracy, but nobody makes a complaint, then there is nothing we can do about it. That is the principle. As Ms McKay said, it has to be somebody who is personally affected. Previous ombudsmen have rather broadened the net as to what "personally affected" meant. If you now say something about a particular nationality, then a representative body or even a senior personality within that nationality could take a complaint. It is fairly broad, but we do not have the right to initiate cases ourselves.

Will Mr. Montgomery give us an indication of the numbers of complaints they receive in a year?

Mr. Rory Montgomery

Ms McKay's office is the first port of call.

Ms Susan McKay

In 2022 I think there were just above 400 complaints heard, and in 2023 we were up almost 20% on 2022. From the volume of complaints coming in at the moment it seems it will be higher again, but it is very early to say that.

Mr. Rory Montgomery

A lot of those fall by the wayside because they are not within the scope of the Press Council's activity. You get complaints about adverts for instance, which is not a matter for us to deal with, and as Ms McKay has said there are a couple of high profile publications which are not members of the Press Council. A lot of them get sorted out through conciliation, and there are also Ms McKay's own decisions. As I said earlier, I would say that approximately a dozen of her decisions are appealed each year to the Press Council. We have the final say - there is no appeal beyond that. In the majority of cases, statistically, we uphold the ombudsman's decisions. Ms McKay's predecessor used to say it was a good sign that not all of his decisions were upheld. I think that is important because it shows the Press Council looks rigorously and precisely at whether principles have been misapplied, or procedures have not been followed.

I ask the industry for its parting thoughts on this important topic.

Mr. John Purcell

We have a fairly robust non courts-based complaints system operating through our regulator. It is useful. The complaint has to be logged within 30 days. A response has to be given within 21 working days. We find that deals with a lot of the complaints. It has teeth because the regulator applies it. I do not have figures, but my feeling is that litigation is actually quite low, but the threat of litigation is not absent. I noted, in relation to the defamation Act there is talk of a linkage between whether people availed of the other complaints mechanisms. We would like to see that included with regard to radio.

On the overall environment of complaints, we have a concern about the volume, nature and weaponisation of complaints procedures. We feel we have only seen the tip of the iceberg to date, but it is not something about which we can be complacent. I think people who operate complaints decisions need to be mindful of the potential of that.

Mr. Séamus Dooley

I would say that humility is not normally associated with editors. However, the reality is that editors and journalists now realise that they do make mistakes. Douglas Gageby used to always say in The Irish Times that, we do our best, we go home and we start it again tomorrow, or sometimes every Sunday. The objective of the Press Council, quite simply, is to be an effective mechanism to allow the media to apologise if it gets it wrong. We are talking about it as a complaints mechanism. It is also a statement of values and ethics. That also needs to be emphasised. From the point of view of this committee and the justice committee we cannot emphasise enough that the serious harm test is the key that unlocks everything else. In the absence of a serious harm test, everything else within the Act is limited in its effectiveness. What you cannot do as a committee is ensure that journalism survives by the hiring of journalists. That is for another day.

Mr. Daniel McConnell

I echo what Mr. Dooley has said. First, the abolition of juries would radically improve the situation. Second, the serious harms test was well articulated by Mr. Dooley. Third, the defamation law going through is not perfect from our perspective. It does not give us everything we are looking for. The industry is under significant pressure. The win for us as an industry, and for democracy as a whole, is that we have a fair system, a speedier process of reconciliation, accommodation or conciliation, and that justice is seen to be done fairly and quickly.

Mr. Dave O'Connell

I am struggling but at my most humble. I am 40 years in this industry. We have honestly never been under greater threat. I would equally argue that our standards have never been as high. Our staff have never been as flexible or creative. Mr. Dooley mentioned values and ethics. They have never been greater and we have never been under greater threat. Against all of the abuse hurled in our direction I say, so what? I will stand proudly for what we do. I admit there was a time in the past, when if a solicitor's letter came in you would ignore it in the hope it would go away. That does not happen and cannot happen, because you are ratcheting that up from day one. You can be assured, if you have a problem, that it will be dealt with by an editor in the first instance. If it is not, it will be robustly dealt with by the Press Council. I am steering away from the court at this stage. We have mentioned Bernie Grogan a few times. My experience is that Bernie Grogan is the first port of call in all of this. I assure people of that, if they do not get the apology they are looking for in the first instance, and presuming there is something wrong. One of the frustrations people have with this is that the story is often big and the apology is often small. That is not the case with the Press Council because you have to carry the full judgment. It is often bigger than the story was in the first place. It also has to be carried on a page further forward than where the original article appeared. If you are looking for the profile of the apology and the retraction, you will get that when it comes to the Press Council. I cannot imagine any scenario where we would refuse to carry the judgment of the Press Council. We signed up for this We support and believe in it. I take from today that we perhaps have to make sure the optics are a lot clearer than they have been. As an industry, we take responsibility for that the same as everybody else in all of this. It goes back to where we started. We are in difficulty. We are one or two libel actions away from the wall. Anything we can do to make sure that does not happen, and that we protect a robust newspaper and radio industry, we will do. We will take that on board. We need help, and we need the committee's help on this.

That is a strong and passionate conclusion, and I thank Mr. O'Connell. I thank all of our witnesses for participating today. It has been a useful meeting and it is part of the discussions we have been having over the past couple of months. I thank colleagues as well.

Finally, I am sorry Deputy Griffin is not here as I am sure he would second my proposal. It would be remiss of me today as Chair of the Oireachtas joint committee with responsibility for sport not to congratulate Arva GAA, who were crowned All-Ireland winners at the junior football championship against Listowel Emmets last weekend in Croke Park.

It was huge for the county, and huge for Arva. I am sure my colleagues will not mind me asking the clerk to the committee to extend our best wishes to Arva on their big win at the weekend. Is that agreed?

I am from Kerry.

Am I very bad? Deputy Daly went out and he has come back in. My apologies.

I know the coach, Mr. Enda Murphy, of the Emmets. The best team won on the day. I think everyone would accept that. I wish the best of luck to Arva in the final. May the spirit of John Joe O'Reilly and "Gunner" Brady go with them.

I thank Deputy Daly.

The Chair may be aware that Ms Celene Craig is to step down from Coimisiún na Meán. I think I mentioned it to her.

That is correct.

I might propose, because we have engaged quite a lot with Ms Craig, that we thank her for her work, both at the BAI and with the commission, over 30 years. We probably aged her a lot in this committee, as, I am sure, some of the people on the other side of the table may have done as well. I propose the committee formally thanks her for all her work.

I will, indeed. I will ask the clerk to the committee to extend our best wishes to her in her retirement. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. John Purcell

Can I use this rare public opportunity-----

Mr. John Purcell

-----to extend the best wishes of our sector to Celene as well. We have all worked with her over many years and she is held in very high regard in the sector. We would like to wish her well and thank her for her service.

That is kind of Mr. Purcell. I know the clerk to the committee will do an excellent job extending those best wishes to her on her retirement.

That concludes our meeting for today. I ask the witnesses to exit the room, if they do not mind. We have a little bit of housekeeping to contend with. I will suspend the meeting briefly to allow witnesses to withdraw before we resume in private session. I ask my colleagues not to go too far.

Sitting suspended at 4.21 p.m. and resumed in private session at 4.22 p.m.
The joint committee adjourned at 4.37 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 24 January 2024.
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