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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 15 Apr 2003

Vol. 1 No. 9

Platform 11: Presentation.

I am pleased to welcome Mr. Derek Wheeler, Mr. Tom Sheridan, Mr. Mark Foley and Mr. Brian Guckian of Platform 11. I draw their attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make that official identifiable.

Perhaps Mr. Wheeler would commence his presentation.

Mr. Derek Wheeler

I thank the committee for affording us this opportunity to make a presentation to it.

Platform 11 was established just over three months ago. Our aims are to campaign for better rail services, to educate the public on how rail services can benefit them and their communities and to put forward proposals for viable rail solutions both in the city of Dublin and nationwide.

My colleague, Tom Sheridan, will take members through our proposal for a rail solution in Dublin city, which we have named the"d-Connector". It involves utilising the tunnel under the Phoenix Park, which is currently not used, for regular passenger movements.

Mr. Tom Sheridan

The tunnel under the Phoenix Park is perhaps the best-kept secret of urban railways anywhere in Europe. It connects the north and south sides of the city. It runs directly from Connolly Station on the north side, connects with Spencer Dock, crosses underneath thePhoenix Park to Heuston Station and connects to the rest of the rail network.

For decades, Dublin rail commuters and inter-city travellers have longed for the day when they could take a train between Heuston and Connolly Stations in central Dublin. There is a freight-only line that passes under the Phoenix Park that connects these two stations. This line is fully signalled to passenger standards. It has been recently renewed and it can support trains at five minute intervals, so we are talking about DART-type frequency. The transit time from Connolly Station and Spencer Dock to Heuston Station would be about 12 minutes or 20 minutes if intermediate stations were constructed.

The line under the Phoenix Park should be the thread which links the city's major railway stations together into an integrated railway hub. Instead of having one central station, we would have three main stations connected by this line, which would bring them together. It also brings out the potential and scope for serving heavily populated areas along its route, which I will explain in a moment. This is the d-Connector.

Iarnród Eireann wishes to construct a tunnel, which it calls the "interconnector", under the south side of the city from Spencer Dock, under St. Stephen's Green and on to Heuston Station. It is estimated that it will cost €1 billion to build and would take several years to complete. Our d-Connector is very much within the remit of the DTI's Platform for Change. It uses existing infrastructure and eliminates the need for an extensive tunnelling project under the city centre. In addition, the Luas will also be up and running between Heuston and Connolly Stations next year to provide city centre light rail access.

The plan to build a new tunnel under the city is obsolete. Tunnelling under the river on this scale has never been attempted. It would be risky, very expensive and would take many years. As can be seen from the example of the port tunnel around Whitehall, even though it is a tunnel under the city, it has caused major disruptions to the life and economy of and transport in the city. The building of a new tunnel is due to happen at a time when work on Luas and the port tunnel will be concluding and would result in more disruption in Dublin just as we would be recovering from the effects of the previous tunnelling.

We estimate that the d-Connector project could be built in its entirety, minus an interchange station at Phibsborough, for approximately €50 million. This would represent excellent value for the taxpayer in both the long and the short-term. It would also eliminate the need for several other major rail projects outlined in the SSR for Dublin by solving the lack of capacity issue, which I will explain later. More importantly, Dublin cannot wait ten years; it needs a solution now.

We have drawn up a map of the system which illustrates that it uses existing rail lines. The only item not yet on the system is the light blue line which represents the Luas between Heuston and Connolly Stations and, as we heard in recent days, the Luas connection between Connolly, Spencer Dock and the Point. The vertical line represents the north-south axis with the arrow at the top pointing towards Belfast and the arrow at the bottom pointing towards the Wexford and Wicklow services and Rosslare. The tunnel is the area approximately between Islandbridge and Phibsborough. There is no station at Phibsborough at present, but there is room to build a station there which would link the whole connection together.

A new line?

Mr. Sheridan

It is the whole thing. Thed-Connector is a concept for connecting the lines together. There is no new construction involved other than some new stations.

What Mr. Sheridan is saying is that this line will come from Spencer Dock to Phibsborough and around to Islandbridge.

Mr. Sheridan

Yes, they already exist.

I know the tunnel.

Mr. Sheridan

It utilises the existing infrastructure.

There are many misconceptions about the tunnel under the park. One is that it is unsuitable, that it is only a works tunnel. If it is a works tunnel, it is perhaps the most important railway works tunnel anywhere because, without it, to move a train between Connolly and Heuston Stations would involve going from Connolly Station to Wexford, from Wexford to Waterford, from Waterford to Limerick and from Limerick to Dublin. It is obvious how vital that line is to the national transport system in terms of rail. It was used very extensively for freight until the freight services were downgraded in recent times. However, it is still used for transporting freight from Dublin Port, mainly from Midland yard at the side of Spencer Dock to Cork and elsewhere. It is also used for rolling stock transfers - trains being removed from the Belfast-Dublin line to be repaired in Inchicore are brought through the tunnel to the yards there. It is a double-track railway line.

The picture shows platform ten at Islandbridge on the outskirts of Heuston Station. The arrow points to the tunnel entrance at Conyngham Road. At the upper right-hand corner is a picture of a signal. I took that photograph from Conyngham Road, looking in the opposite direction. Down below is an orange arrow where the line of the Spencer Dock is and the Dublin-Belfast line is underneath it. That is its course.

Another misconception about the tunnel is that it is too narrow for modern trains. This is totally false. Until the 1980s, coaches were much wider than they are now. The Park Road coaches which were eliminated in the early 1990s were ten and a half feet wide and they were the tallest and widest carriages ever to run on British or Irish railways. Since then, carriages have become narrower. The top one in the picture is the new 2900 series rail car that has been delivered. These care measure nine and a half feet, as do DART and Arrow cars. The carriages are smaller. The tunnels are the same size. The inter-city coaches are smaller again. Many are only just over nine feet in width.

Another problem that is touted - it may be legitimate - is that the tunnel may be too low to run catenaries to provide electric power to DART trains. It is claimed that some of the solutions, such as, for example, widening the tunnel, would cost a lot of money. It would not be necessary to widen the tunnel. The track bed could be lowered as was done at Dalkey. This lowers the train. The green image represents the DART and the overhead electrical equipment is connected to the roof of the tunnel over the train. There is now room for it because the train has been lowered. It requires excavating the track. The orange train represents the current diesel stock. We have not been able to trespass on that land and go down on a ladder with a measuring tape to ascertain whether that tunnel is too low. Even if it is - and it might already be tall enough for catenaries - it is not a major engineering problem to overcome. It has been done in the past at Dalkey.

It is also claimed that the severe curvature of the line would be a problem. I have some satellite pictures here that were taken of the Phoenix line. The yellow arrows point to the main curve. The large grey area in the middle is Prospect Cemetery. Below that is the Dublin-Maynooth-Sligo line. The black band is the Royal Canal. The curvature is approximately similar that in the centre picture, which is the loop line across the river between Tara Street and Connolly Stations. Liberty Hall can be seen on the left and the Custom House on the upper right. There is an even more severe curve at Glenageary, just north of the train station. Such curves in urban areas are common all over the world. Speed would be restricted anyway and if a new station is built at Phibsborough, trains will be either starting or stopping. This is very much an urban rail project. It is not for high-speed express trains across long distances.

On the proposed station at Spencer Dock, there is already a site there. It was the former Midland and Great-Western freight yard. A few years ago, the land was sold to Spencer Dock Development or Treasury Holdings which are building office blocks on the half of the site south of Sheriff Street. The north side of that yard still exists. I will show the committee pictures of it later. It is still being used for freight trains, although in many ways it is not suitable because the number of wagons that can be assembled restricts the length of freight trains they can assemble there. It probably would be better to develop it into a passenger station. If the proposed Luas line down Sheriff Street and the docklands development are included, it has the potential to be to Dublin what Liverpool Street station is to London.

Essentially, it is not a main line train station but gets passengers in and out from the outer suburbs quickly, to give them multiple connections to the DART, Luas and, perhaps, the proposed metro, but also to the bus service. It is not an inter-city train connection; if someone is going from Portlaoise to Waterford or Wexford, though that would be possible, the station is designed more for commuting. Existing rail freight facilities might be moved to the docks and to the more appropriate and under-used facilities at the Point Depot, where there is a larger yard, and at the coastal container yard further down the docks towards the Alexandria Basin, which is unused at present.

There is a brown field site at Spencer Dock which the railway company has ready to go. There is a possibility that the docklands business community can be brought in to help finance the construction at Spencer Dock station as a public private partnership project. Equally as important, in terms of its overall viability, it could kick start the docklands region in social, cultural and economic terms in the same way that docklands light railway in London drove the social and cultural development of Canary Wharf by making it a more socially accessible and culturally desirable place to live, work and visit. I refer the committee to various photographs of Sheriff Street bridge looking north-east. What is left of the current rail freight container line can be seen in the photograph, which looks in the direction of the Dublin-Belfast main line which crosses over in the distance. Wagons can be seen being made ready for transfer to various parts of the country. Another photograph shows the other half of the yard, which is currently being developed into large office buildings and private apartments. The IFSC is just to the right. It can be seen that the area is not as isolated as many people think, certainly not in the context of developments in the area. With regard to where the photograph is taken, if there was a Luas station at that point the city centre would also be accessible.

One of the most under-utilised and under-appreciated parts of the Irish rail network is at Phibsborough, a place known as Glasnevin Junction. The committee can see a photograph which details the importance of this area. There is one line that goes to Maynooth and Sligo and commuter areas in that direction. The line on the upper right of the photograph is the one that curves around the cemetery and enters the Phoenix Park. On the lower right is the line to Connolly Station and Spencer Dock, both of which connect with the docks. The other line is the lower line along the canal, which runs south of Croke Park, though several sections of it are currently disconnected.

If this area was redeveloped, it would be possible to build a station that would be impressive in terms of connections. If the track layout was altered and new platforms installed, there would be a facility that would not only serve as a commuter station within its own heavily populated and commercially strong area, but from which it would also be possible to connect with anywhere on the national rail network. There is enough room to build a station and the track connections are in place. It would be expensive, but not outrageously so, and would not cost anything of the order of €1 billion. It would take a proper engineering evaluation, but I could not see it taking any more than, perhaps, €25 million to build the station and alter the existing layout, including signalling.

On the use of Islandbridge, platform ten at Heuston Station was built as a temporary platform while the redevelopment of the existing train station was ongoing. Commuters from the Kildare line were being dropped off and buses were taking people to the main station and to the city centre. As soon as that platform was built, it opened up new possibilities for a train service which could run between Heuston and DART access between Connolly and Pearse, and perhaps down to Grand Canal Street, using the Phoenix Park tunnel. That station was developed in the context of a relatively modest layout of a passing loop, an island platform and two platforms on either side. An airport-style moving walkway could also be put in to get passengers to Heuston Station and the Luas. Between there, Phibsborough and the end of the tunnel, there is serious connectivity and integrated transport within the city and nationwide. The connections in place at present are unheard of or are difficult to use, such as getting off at Heuston and having to take the number 90 bus to Connolly Station. This would eliminate that.

There is enough room to build a direct route from Heuston to Islandbridge instead of a moving walkway. The problem with that is that the yard in question has been recently redeveloped; it is used for loading kegs of beer and is also a major car park. It would be very expensive and self-defeating in that it would be to rip up new track work. An airport-style moving walkway would probably be the best solution. However, even without that, the station is a very viable project.

If the Islandbridge station was developed, it might be possible to have a DART line running east-west and we have named this the "cross-town shuttle" for the moment. If it was possible to run trains in the slots between the existing inter-city, commuter and freight train services, extremely useful urban transport would be provided. Trains could rattle back and forth all day between Heuston and Pearse and that would truly represent what urban rail is supposed to be. In major cities around the world, whether New York, Paris, Vienna or otherwise, a train, subway or metro is like a watch; it is a part of city life. Passengers simply show up at a station and the service comes along. With suburban trains moving on this line and the cross-town shuttle filling in gaps, there would be a fairly intense frequency of service along that axis.

I work on Grand Canal Street and many people with whom I work live in Hazelhatch and along the Kildare commuter line. When I ask them why they drive into Dublin, they say it is because the train is useless and that is because it only takes them to Heuston Station. Most people want to go to the main business district in the city along the axis between Connolly, Pearse and, increasingly, Grand Canal Street. This would solve that problem and would open up a new world for people living in Kildare - who do not like the idea of getting off at Heuston and who prefer to drive or take the express bus - as it would for people arriving in Heuston who wish to go to Belfast. The day of the bus transfer would be over.

This is not just a quick fix. The DART utilised existing infrastructure at a time when the economy was not in such good shape and when the same resources were not available for transport. What CIE achieved with the DART was visionary for its time and the city would cease to function in many ways without the DART. It was built on the ethos of taking existing infrastructure and developing it to the best potential possible. The d-Connector solution is very much in that spirit.

The new station at Spencer Dock, if constructed, will bring other benefits to the rest of the rail network, a very important aspect of this project. There are tremendous capacity problems on the line through the city centre, mainly because of the loop line which has two tracks going over the city. There are other ways by which the railway company could solve this problem, such as by changing its timetable and making better use of unused platforms, etc., at stations. One of the proposals in the SSR was to either triple or quadruple the track between Howth Junction and Connolly. This would be very expensive and, aside from the question of railway infrastructure, would involve buying a lot of land in high property price areas.

With regard to Spencer Dock, I am talking predominantly about the Maynooth commuter service, which is growing as anyone who has seen recent property supplements will know. There are a lot of developments along that line in Ashtown and other areas, and advertisements for those areas usually show a picture of local train stations.

The station at Spencer Dock would be like Liverpool Street station and would shuttle huge numbers of people in and out; we have worked out that there is enough room for six platforms there. If the trains currently going into Connolly were diverted to Spencer Dock, it would bring the Maynooth commuter service into its own and would also alleviate the pressures on the northern suburban route by freeing up those vacant slots to increase the frequencies along the Drogheda-Connolly axis, and a Dublin-Belfast enterprise hourly service would be possible. We call this the final link in the heavy rail solution for Dublin because Dublin, for a city of its size, would be more or less complete with regard to heavy rail at this point.

Other services such as Luas will be provided in parts of the city centre and elsewhere that are currently inaccessible by train. The system in Dublin will be similar to that in Vienna, where the inter-city train network is complemented by a tram and metro network between the stations and in the business districts, which ties the city together. There is no reason a similar network cannot be put in place in Dublin and the Luas project can be a good start to that process.

Platform 11 is not just concerned about rail services in Dublin, as it is also involved in the development of the rail network outside the city, in accordance with the aims and mission statement of the national spatial strategy. The €1 billion needed to build the tunnel under the River Liffey could be saved by utilising the existing infrastructure and by putting together a system like the d-Connector. Better value could be provided for all Irish taxpayers - not just those in the Dublin area - by redirecting the money to restore railway lines in places where they are needed, such as the Sligo-Limerick and Derry-Letterkenny axes. Commuter rail services should be provided in Sligo, Limerick, Waterford and Galway, where taxpayers have the same problems as those in Dublin. The problems experienced in Dublin can be avoided in such places if we invest in rail transport now.

CIE's proposed tunnel would be a further validation of the "Pale rail" agenda, which involves all lines running to Dublin. Such a rail system is geared to fight the national spatial strategy,but our plans will address that matter. Thed-Connector is more than just a Dublin project, as it will serve the entire Irish railway network.

I thank Mr. Sheridan. Before I invite members of the committee to ask questions, will our guests provide some information about Platform 11's background?

Mr. Brian Guckian

Platform 11 consists of rail users and is open to everybody who is interested in the development of railway services. It involves taxpayers who use the railways and who are at the coalface every day. People who are interested in many areas, such as community rail and regional railway services, are involved in the organisation because they are unhappy with the standard of services offered by Iarnród Éireann. Platform 11 is a broad group.

How many members does the organisation have?

Mr. Guckian

About 40 people from all walks of life have joined because they want to get involved at different levels. We operate primarily through a website and an e-mailing list. We have had a number of meetings, including two public meetings. The organisation's purpose is to facilitate those who want to pursue rail development.

I was just asking.

Mr. Guckian

I appreciate that.

I was not questioning the organisation, but trying to find out about its background. I do not agree that the railway line between Heuston Station and Connolly Station is the best-kept secret in Ireland, as it has been discussed for many years. I was a city councillor for 15 years and I recall that the tunnel was discussed ten years ago. Iarnród Éireann has argued that the advantage of rerouting the traffic on the Kildare line - it says that not many people are involved - into the central destination of a great deal of other traffic will cause further congestion on a line that is already over-congested. How does Platform 11 respond to this?

Mr. Sheridan

This problem will be alleviated by the construction of a new station at Spencer Dock. The congestion argument, which is genuine as there are only two lines crossing the city there, relates to Connolly. The Kildare trains will not be going to Connolly, but to Spencer Dock. They will not have an impact on the location of current congestion problems.

Will they cross the river?

Mr. Sheridan

No, they will travel under the northern line. Trains on the Kildare line will be on their own, essentially, from Heuston Station to Spencer Dock.

I remind members of the committee, who know the rules, that I have a new clock which I intend to use as a weapon.

I hope that I do not have a fit of coughing during my contribution. I welcome the Platform 11 delegation, which has brought forward an extremely impressive proposal.

The proposal, which I have already seen, seems to involve a cost-effective method of addressing congestion problems and the chaotic situation in Dublin. I put it to the delegation that the strategic rail review omits the Phoenix Park tunnel, which is not included in any of the report's diagrammatics. The tunnel was not considered by the appointed consultants. The rail review also supports the development of a €1 billion interconnector, either under the River Liffey or south of it. Independent consultants, appointed by the Government to examine what can be done in respect of Dublin's rail difficulties, have not considered the Phoenix Park tunnel; it is not part of their proposals.

Will the delegation comment on a number of other issues, one of which was mentioned by the Chair? Irish Rail has ruled out the use of the tunnel on the basis that the capacity at Connolly Station is insufficient to deal with additional traffic. It also argued that it would be unable to put the same number of trains on the Maynooth line if it was running services from Heuston to Connolly, which would involve signalling costs. It has also been suggested that the fact that the journey along the quays from Heuston to Connolly takes only 15 minutes means that people would not use the service under the Phoenix Park. I do not know when that was timed, however, as I have never travelled along the quays in 15 minutes.

Who said that?

I am referring to arguments that have been made in the past with regard to the use, or lack of use, of the Phoenix Park tunnel. I have outlined some of the reasons that have been given regarding why it should or should not be used.

Another point that is often made is that there is no need for an additional north side link, as Luas will provide a connection between Heuston Station and Connolly Station. Any extra connection should be on the south side of the river. I am not convinced by the arguments that have been put forward. I ask Platform 11 to address each argument in turn.

I wish to ask the delegation some questions about capacity at Connolly Station, which seems to be the nub of the issue in respect of Irish Rail. Do we need to invest in resignalling of the loop between Pearse Station and Connolly Station? Is investment needed there so that capacity can be increased on the existing two lines? Is such an increase possible? I know that Irish Rail tendered the proposal at one stage, but I do not think tenders were accepted in respect of it. Could the capacity problems at Connolly be relieved by terminating services from Arklow and Wexford at Pearse Station? Is such a change feasible and would it help to relieve some of the congestion that exists at Connolly at present? Are there cost-effective ways of relieving the congestion at Connolly immediately so that the frequency of existing services can be increased and developed?

Mr. Sheridan

There are three unused platforms at Pearse Station, one of which is already electrified. The other two are used as locations for movies but are real platforms that were used for terminations in the past. Pearse Station was originally used as a terminus for trains from Wicklow and Wexford. There is no reason Wexford trains should not terminate at Pearse Station, thereby freeing up capacity on the loop line. People could hop over the track and on to the line.

Can Mr. Sheridan explain what he means by the phrase "hop over the track"?

Mr. Sheridan

People getting off trains from Wexford could change platforms at Pearse Station to get on the DART if they wish to continue to Connolly. There is no reason diesel trains from Wexford should continue to pass over the loop line on a line that is already over-loaded. It defies logic to talk about a lack of capacity because that is one thing that can be easily fixed.

Why is Iarnród Éireann not doing that?

Mr. Sheridan

We do not know. That is why we exist and that is why we have established Platform 11.

Senator Morrisey

Irish Rail does not understand that there is no problem at Connolly Station besides bad operational management which the company refuses to acknowledge. Mr. Sheridan's contribution is correct.

The tunnel either works or does not and this is the argument that was made against it ten years ago. If it works, the State will save itself a vast amount of money.

Mr. Wheeler

As Tom said earlier, if an engineering evaluation were carried out, we would be proved correct.

Mr. Mark Foley

As Deputy Naughten said, it is technically possible to start this service tomorrow morning. Platform 1 at Connolly Station is not used. A train could start tomorrow, stop at Island Bridge and continue to platform 1 at Connolly Station where it could terminate before turning around for a return journey. There would be limited frequency in the service, but it could be done tomorrow morning.

Mr. Wheeler

The point was made that a Luas service between Heuston and Connolly Stations would make the tunnel redundant. People must bear in mind that Luas will serve Heuston after it has come from Tallaght. We must also look at capacity issues when a tram or unit reaches Heuston Station where people are pouring off trains. We could experience the same problem we have with the existing bus service since the Luas is not being constructed to facilitate passengers who detrain at Heuston before travelling to Connolly Station. Effectively, the Luas line runs in from Tallaght.

Luas will be a victim of its own success.

Mr. Wheeler

It will be a victim of its own success. We anticipate that if a unit reaches Heuston Station, there will be capacity problems. The strategic rail review made very brief reference to the Phoenix Park tunnel and stated that the additional 15 minute journey from Heuston to Connolly Station and Spencer Dock through the tunnel would not be an attractive option for the travelling public. It did not say how this conclusion was arrived at. While reference was made, the interconnector tunnel was favoured though no evidence as was provided to explain why the park tunnel was unsuitable. It has been the same old story over the years.

Mr. Sheridan

Regarding Deputy Naughten's point about the problem with Maynooth and the reduction in capacity, it should be remembered that there are four tracks across the northside of Dublin. As they exit at Glasnevin junction, two go to the north of Croke Park and the others go to the south. Currently, the Maynooth service travels to the north, which is where Connolly Station is. There is no reason the service could not terminate at Spencer Dock too. While there would be a minor layout of extra track and a signalling issue, issues could be resolved given that it is the 21st century. These things are done all over the world. The concept behind the Spencer Dock station is that it will bring commuters from the western suburbs and the outlying areas of Kildare into the city as quickly as possible. We cannot go on trains and ask people questions, but we have conducted a casual survey of those we know who use the line which terminates at Heuston Station. Of those, over 90% have told us they would prefer to continue to Connolly Station. I work with people living along the Kildare axis who do not use the line for the simple reason that a train which delivers them to the west side of the city centre is of no use as most of the business district is elsewhere.

I do not understand the point about the extra 15 minutes of journey time. In a city in which people are willing to spend an hour and a half driving to work, 15 minutes on a train is not a big deal. It is a relief from the pressure they are under now. The railway is infrastructure which is grossly under used and under appreciated The building of a grandiose tunnel under the Liffey would be a dream come true, but it is not necessary.

You agree that it would make a huge difference if it were built, but you object to its cost.

Mr. Sheridan

It must be remembered that we are not just talking about a tunnel. You cannot run diesel trains under the city which means the tunnel and the lines to Kildare and Maynooth - perhaps even to Mullingar - would have to be electrified. At issue is more than just the tunnel, it is the associated infrastructure. Diesel trains could be run through the Phoenix Park tunnel which is ventilated and not that long. There are much longer tunnels all over the UK through which diesel trains are run much more frequently. It is an enormous project and Dublin does not have the ten years needed to effect it. We need solutions now. Even if this were built and the tunnel were constructed afterwards, it would be standing on its own. Luas will be a victim of its own success and through its utilisation, this network will suffer the same fate.

Mr. Wheeler

Apart from being a connection point, the line around the north of the city serves heavily populated areas such as Phibsboro and Cabra and provides commuting opportunities. People and community groups we have spoken to in these areas are amazed that the line is not utilised.

The presentation today tells us that we can have a metro service in north inner city Dublin for the €50 million needed to upgrade the line and the €25 million necessary to put a station in Phibsboro while the Spencer Dock station is provided through public private partnership. What timescale would be required to put this in place? Why has no one taken on this proposal?

Mr. Foley

The €50 million is not the cost of upgrading the line. The line is fully relaid and signalled to passenger standard. The money is what is needed to provide the station at Spencer Dock. The extra €25 million is the cost of the station at Phibsboro.

We are being told that €75 million will build two stations and get the system up and running.

Mr. Guckian

The Maynooth line took 18 months to two years.

That is not much shorter than the metro.

Mr. Foley

As I said before, the service could be provided in the morning.

I think I speak for all members of the committee when I say that we are amazed by the huge cost of various proposals by Government bodies when people like those attending today subsequently propose projects at a fraction of the cost. It seems extraordinary. I am not saying that those attending today are wrong or right, but what is proposed today is incredible. We will certainly have Iarnród Éireann attend to answer questions.

I join colleagues in welcoming the members of Platform 11 and I thank them for their excellent presentation. As a fellow rail sufferer, this issue is of particular interest to me. What has Iarnród Éireann's reaction to Platform 11's proposal been? Has it been put to the company?

Mr. Sheridan

I attended a debate on a late night radio show with Barry Kenny who is Iarnród Éireann's PR representative. He said that Iarnród Éireann wants to build for the future, but while that is fair enough, the company seems to skirt the issue. Iarnród Éireann says a connector is possible, but it will be the interconnector it builds under the river.

Has Platform 11 made its submission to Iarnród Éireann in writing or verbally as it has done here?

Mr. Sheridan

Our philosophy is to take this proposal ourselves and to highlight it to the general public. As regards going through the normal channels, it has been shown in the past in relation to the western rail corridor, proposals are politely received, but nothing happens. For that reason, we are highlighting our proposal ourselves through the media.

I do not wish to cause personal offence, but what are the qualifications of Platform 11's members to present a study such as this? Are Platform 11 members happy that they are sufficiently professionally qualified to do so? If not, have members considered having it independently assessed and audited prior to further presentation?

Mr. Wheeler

Regarding what Brian said when the Chairman asked him what our backgrounds were, it is important to point out that while none of us works in the railway industry, we are informed and knowledgeable. While I am not a member of the trainspotter brigade, I have had an interest in rail infrastructure, as opposed to trains, carriages, engines or numbers, from an early age. I am self-educated in that I have read the relevant books and know the various technical terms. I know about continuous welded rail, capacity problems and signalling and I am confident, having read the books, that if I had a job in Irish Rail, I would not have a problem parading within it.

I speak for all of us in saying that we are all self-educated and have an interest in rail infrastructure. We came together and started talking about issues such as the d-Connector and the western rail corridor. We have visited these locations and are acquainted with them. I have been to several points along the western line and have also photographed the section of line from Islandbridge into Spencer Dock. I have always known about these matters. We know the alignments and gradients and have the technical information.

I did not mean any slight, I am just trying to remove obstacles.

Mr. Wheeler

That is fine.

Mr. Sheridan

Outside the steering group, we also have members who are involved in railway engineering and infrastructure.

If the committee is to help the Platform 11 group, it is important that we remove any obstacles which we anticipate may arise.

Mr. Sheridan

One's background is important. I lived in the United States for many years, where I worked for a Wall Street bank. In the US, the home of the motorcar, I could finish work at midnight and get a train to travel 50 miles to a small town on the Long Island railroad. When I returned to Ireland in the middle of the Celtic tiger era, however, I found that a person from Mullingar finishing a meeting in Dublin at 6 p.m. has ten minutes to get to the train station if he wants to avoid an overnight stay.

Mr. Sheridan would need to take a taxi.

Deputy Glennon has already asked the question I wanted to put to the witnesses. Did the group sit down with Iarnród Éireann management to discuss its proposals and establish whether they are feasible? How did it arrive at its costings?

Mr. Sheridan

The costings were done by finding out how much platforms cost. One can find companies which specialise in modular components for railway construction on the Internet. We contacted them and asked how much a platform would cost, how long it would take to build and how many we would need. Our figures are a rough calculation because we do not have enough funds to hire an engineering company to carry out an evaluation. Although the prices we are quoting are very much approximations based on amateur research, they are sound in the sense that we are getting——

We hear the term "approximatefigures" all the time.

Mr. Sheridan

——them from source, namely, the supplier. This is also how we found out that one can lease rather than buy trains. The truth is often to be found when carrying out basic researching of these kinds of projects at micro level. If the proposal was to be evaluated by an engineering company, I am sure it would arrive at a higher figure. However, given that we covered everything in our price, it could not be wildly different.

Mr. Wheeler

Irish Rail quoted a figure of €50 million to €60 million just to construct a station at Spencer Dock. When we received media coverage, we went head-to-head with the company and asked whether it proposed to build a station along the lines of Grand Central station in New York. The company's proposed figure amounts to an incredible budget for a railway station which, effectively, consists of platforms, ticketing areas and facilities for the disabled. Nothing else is necessary and one does not need a roof that costs €25 million.

I congratulate the group. This is one of the first occasions on which I have heard common sense being spoken here. Deputy Martin Brady asked whether the group had discussed the feasibility of its proposals with Irish Rail. It is the last organisation one should approach to evaluate feasibility in our railway system. An example which proves this point is that one cannot book a ticket over the telephone with the company by using a credit card. One has to send one's telefax details to Heuston Station, from where they are forwarded to the office in Abbey Street. One can then collect one's ticket from Heuston Station. When I attempted to do this last Friday evening, I received a reference number from Irish Rail at 3 p.m. However, my ticket was not available when I went to collect it. I did not even receive an apology, but was told to buy a new ticket and that the cost of the ticket I booked earlier had been deducted from my credit card. If Michael O'Leary of Ryanair or Willie Walsh of Aer Lingus can organise ticket sales on the Internet but Irish Rail cannot even organise booking by credit card, the company is not the right organisation to ask about the feasibility of engineering works.

I turn now to the points raised in the submission. Platform 11 is correct to state that tunnelling has not been attempted under the River Liffey. Coincidentally, committee members received a letter from the National Roads Authority today concerning the Dublin Port tunnel, which is currently being built. The NRA states that there is a great difficulty in estimating costs associated with the first use of new construction technology in a country such as this. This is the reason given by an organisation supposedly made up of experts on inflation; it does not refer to engineering.

What I love about the proposal is that it makes better operational use of existing resources. Every element of the railway and transport system is seeking more Government funding. Are they arguing that they have achieved full capacity within their current resources? The answer is a resounding no.

I live on the Maynooth line, along which the population has increased by 40% since 1992. For ten years, we have been fed the story that there is a capacity constraint at Connolly Station, which is not the case. There is an operational difficulty which dates back to 1962 and the era of the Great Northern Railway. The question was asked whether trains from Drogheda can travel straight to Pearse Station without first stopping at Connolly Station. The reason that this is not possible is because, since 1962, trains arriving from Drogheda and Belfast terminate at Connolly Station where a different driver boards and drives the train on to Pearse Station and Arklow. At 4.50 p.m. each day, a train pulls into platform five where it remains until 5.30 p.m. when a different driver boards and drives it to Arklow. At 6 p.m., a train from Rosslare arrives on platform five and remains there until 6.30 p.m. This means that one of Connolly Station's three platforms is not in use at peak time every evening. Irish Rail claims there is a capacity constraint when there is not.

My understanding is that it argues the capacity constraint is on the bridge.

That is not the case.

Mr. Wheeler

The problem is on platforms six and seven.

Iarnród Éireann told me something completely different.

This is the reason that platforms six and seven must accommodate the Maynooth line as well as the DART. The Maynooth line is treated as the Cinderella of the two because the DART has greater priority.

The beauty of the proposal concerning the tunnel under the River Liffey is that it overcomes all our problems. The tunnel is already owned by Irish Rail and, because no planning, acquisition or public consultation is required, no objections would arise. It could be done as quickly or even more quickly than the quality bus corridor from Whitehall to Rathfarnham.

Connolly Station must be better utilised. Barry Kenny, a spokesperson for Irish Rail, has told me that trains stop on platforms five, six or seven for a maximum of five minutes. Since 1962, trains have stayed on platform five for 45 minutes.

I ask the Senator not to refer to people by name.

Today, for a change, we have rail users before the committee, customers on the tracks and that is a welcome development.

Mr. Sheridan

When we investigated the change-over at Connolly Station, we found it to be a working practice dating back to Victorian times which was adopted when the Great Northern Railway was amalgamated with CIE in 1959 and continues to this day. That is the only reason it occurs.

It has been going on for 40 years. The strategic rail review did everything except consider Connolly Station's operational management, an issue which was not mentioned in its report. No consultant who has examined traffic in Dublin has considered platforms five, six and seven. The beauty of the proposals regarding these platforms, and the proposed platform 11, is that capacity on the Maynooth line as well as the Kildare line, on which some of the witnesses obviously live, would be increased. The whole western region could be opened up. It would take millions of euro and many years to do what is being asked if one starts from a greenfield site. We have it and it is not being used and it is time that Irish Rail and the Government examined what is being said and took it seriously. We do not want the interconnector that is spoken about. It is being hailed as the big engineering solution to all our problems. That money should be spent in the country to further advance the spatial strategy. I like what I have heard and I support it wholeheartedly.

As far as I know from talking to them part of the problem is that the signalling which is required between the stations is going to be upgraded. Where are they doing the signalling?

Mr. Sheridan

The signalling is being upgraded between Connolly and Pearse Stations on the loop line.

They are just starting that. Once that is done it will relieve the problem. It has to be done anyway.

Mr. Wheeler

It will allow an additional four trains to be run. Currently there are 12 trains per hour and the capacity will be increased to 16 per hour under the new signalling system.

It could be useful if invite Iarnród Éireann and Platform 11 to appear before the committee at the same time.

Mr. Sheridan

Is this for your entertainment?

We have had Michael O'Leary here so a very high standard of entertainment will be required.

I propose that we go to Connolly Station for an hour to look at its operational management.

Iarnród Éireann would have to be involved.

I have gone there and spoken to drivers. We do not need Iarnród Éireann.

With all due respect, we could do that but what is the point if we are just going to talk about it ourselves afterwards?

We then validate what was said by the gentlemen appearing before us.

I second the proposal.

We cannot validate it. The responsibility for implementation lies with Iarnród Éireann. It has to be convinced as to whether what is being said is true.

With all due respect, if we are thinking of going to Madrid we can surely get as far as Connolly Station.

I second the Chairman's proposal in regard to the two groups.

If Senator Morrissey does not mind me saying so, what does that have to do with it?

Connolly Station is a mile down the road.

We can go there but there is no use going there if Iarnród Éireann is not involved.

I second the Chairman's proposal to bring the two groups, Iarnród Éireann and Platform 11, together for a detailed discussion. Having heard this presentation and met Iarnród Éireann in the past it would be useful to bring both groups together. Perhaps the Chairman will suggest that only a representative or two will be necessary from each side. The two can answer questions side by side on whatever points are raised. We are in a difficult position to adjudicate on what is said. While some of what we heard appears to be quite credible it is only fair to allow the other side to respond and rather than do it in isolation it would be better to have both groups here, albeit perhaps in smaller number. The points can be put and we can try to adjudicate based on the information that we elicit from them.

I would be anxious to look at what Senator Morrissey said in terms of the specifics of it. I suggest that we do so in conjunction with Iarnród Éireann with perhaps one representative of the committee.

If Iarnród Éireann has to be involved with it we are wasting our time.

I thank the witnesses for their most thought provoking discussion. I query if it would be worthwhile having Iarnród Éireann back in again. Would we not be better off hearing from an independent group which is an expert in the field? I do not see that I would be in a position to adjudicate.

The Senator should resign his seat in that case.

One needs to know his or her weaknesses. Is there a body we can turn to that is independent of Iarnród Éireann and Platform 11 that could give an expert view on the matter?

That matter can be discussed but there is a danger that we could get bogged down.

We need somebody in the middle who can adjudicate.

We can listen to them with an open mind and form our own conclusions.

I would not like anyone to get the impression that the management in Iarnród Éireann does not talk to anybody. In fact they come in here once a month. I have met them. Some 40 of them were here one day. I was at a presentation last night which it gave in regard to the upgrading of the northside DART stations. As far as I am concerned, the managing director is very accessible so I would not like the impression to go out from here that it closes the doors and does not speak or talk to anybody.

Mr. Foley

Far from it. I would say that it would be delighted to answer the queries that have been raised.

Mr. Guckian

The Chairman referred to the re-signalling of the loop line through Connolly Station and across to Pearse Station. The tender for that has actually been withdrawn. The earliest that project will begin is 2006. It has been decided to go ahead with the extension of platforms on the entire DART system which will mean they will be able to take eight-car DART trains instead of six-car ones. We are the only country in Europe to do this. We are going for larger trains rather than extra capacity. We will still be only able to run 12 trains per hour until 2006.

As opposed to more frequency.

Mr. Guckian

Exactly. We will run longer trains but less often. That will be the case until 2006 at the earliest and even by then it will take another two years to implement it.

Are there any other questions?

It is important that we do not take this in isolation because I suspect there will be budgetary reasons coming from Iarnród Éireann. It might be better to leave a lot of the toing and froing until we have an opportunity to hear a good reasoned debate between the two.

Mr. Guckian

I thank the Senators for their support. I wish to make a quick point on the culture within Iarnród Éireann. As we see it, there is an over reliance on macro solutions, grand projects. We believe that it has the capacity, the resources and the talent to implement practical, cost-effective solutions such as the ones we are coming up with. We do not believe that it makes adequate use of its own staffing resources. Each member of staff can be a centre for developing these kinds of ideas. It needs to look at its structures and how it initiates projects. Is it best utilising the people within the company?

There is also a culture of consultancy with which we are not particularly enamoured. We did a press release on this some time ago. The best consultants are the staff of Iarnród Éireann and its customers. That is where imaginative, cost-effective solutions can originate. We are not saying that consultancy is wrong. Sometimes one needs specialised technical consultancy and that is fine but there is an over-reliance on these massive projects, huge catch-solutions which we do not believe deliver value and sometimes are not even the answer.

On behalf of the committee I thank the witnesses for coming here. It was a most interesting and thought provoking presentation. We will come back to the group in the future. I thank it for its work.

The joint committee adjourned at 4 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 30 April 2003.
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