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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 May 2003

Vol. 1 No. 13

Railway Procurement Agency: Presentation.

I am delighted to welcome Mr.Padraic White, Mr. Frank Allen, Mr. Rory O'Connor and Mr. Michael Sheedy, who hold the positions of chairman, chief executive, metro project director and light rail project director, respectively, in the Railway Procurement Agency.

Members of this committee have absolute privilege, but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before it. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses, or an official by name, in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

There is a short time slot available to us. Some members have already read Mr. White's presentation. Could it be summarised or shortened so we can proceed to open discussion more quickly?

I will pick out the main points as I proceed. I welcome this opportunity to set out for the first time in public the thinking and strategy of the Railway Procurement Agency. The agency is just 16 months old and held its first meeting in January 2002. The legislation gives it a very specific mandate, which is to develop light rail and a metro, preferably with the participation and co-operation of the private sector. In addition, the Minister has the ability to add functions to the RPA as he sees fit. Last year, the then Minister, Senator O'Rourke, added a significant mandate to oversee a project for integrated ticketing between the various providers.

Our job is to contribute to the delivery of first-class passenger services and, particularly, to contribute to the mission set out in the Minister's statement of strategy for the period 2003 to 2005, which has just been issued. Our board's aim is to create a highly professional and innovative agency of which the public can be proud. My aspiration as chairman is to bring to the agency my 20 years of experience with the Industrial Development Authority. The agency is in a state of transition because it took over the light rail project office, which had 130 staff, most of whom were on temporary contracts. We are putting new management structures in place and making new appointments to reflect the much broader mandate of the agency.

Let us consider three significant projects of the agency - light rail, the procurement process of the metro and integrated ticketing. We expect that the new light rail service will be operating in little over a year. It is worth outlining the timetable. The construction of the Sandyford line is due to be finished in March 2004. We will allow two months to test-run the trams and address the safety issues. Therefore, we expect the service to be running in June 2004. Construction of the line from Tallaght to Connolly Station is expected to be completed in May 2004 and, allowing for a similar running-in period, it is expected to be in operation in August 2004.

A brilliant light rail service will be offered, with trams running every five minutes at peak times. They will carry thousands of passengers in each direction and it will be possible to add to this capacity as the demand increases. It will be the most convenient, smooth, accessible service available to the public in terms of access for old people, those with disabilities, etc. It will have a highly modern ticketing system and it will be possible to purchase tickets at vending machines, newsagents etc. There will be no body-stopping at the barriers and there will be smart cards. We are trying to make sure that we use the best technology and have the most user-friendly service available. We have awarded the operating franchise to an outstanding company called Connex, which is successfully operating passenger franchises in many countries. I believe it will do a superb job in terms of having a user-friendly service.

I regret that most of the public comment is not about the service. Most of it is about perceived shortcomings or failures, such as perceived delays and cost overruns. The Government has authorised a financial allocation of €691 million to cover the cost of the various contracts. In addition, it is standard that major engineering projects of this kind be allocated a risk allocation to cover unquantifiable issues such as property price escalation, contract variations or unexpected engineering difficulties. These are facts of life. The risk allocation available to us is €84 million. The agency is determined to fight tooth and nail against contractors seeking excesses etc. to ensure that it stays within this budget. The total amount the board has to work with is €775 million. Taking the risk allocation into account, we anticipate that the project will be completed within budget.

I regularly hear this project is running €100 million over budget. I do not know where this figure comes from. It probably comes from a confusion of contractual risk allocations. As far as we are concerned, these are the figures we are operating within and are determined to stay with. I am tired of the project being blackened and blackballed for the wrong reasons. If the RPA, which is only 16 months in operation, is to be assessed, it should be assessed against that figure.

It is true that these figures are considerably higher than the initial estimate of €380 million in 1994. It does not require a great deal of thought to imagine why the cost is higher today. Firstly, the project is significantly bigger in scale; it has been extended from Dundrum to Sandyford, has an increased capacity of one third, an additional depot and more trams. Apart from all this, the prices escalated during the height of the Celtic tiger from 1994 to 1999-2000. The only real measure of the cost for a project is arrived at when a figure is realised following a competitive process. The other figures are estimates in advance.

I would like to bring to the committee's attention one aspect of the price escalation that I find to be unacceptable, namely, the current system for the arbitration of property. We are in the business of acquiring land along the track. It is impossible for anybody to predict the budget for this. If one takes the current system and the equivalent estimate for land acquisition in 1998, about €25 million, we estimate that we will have to pay €100 million for property. If one goes to the arbitrator, one can have a team of specialists to dream up the best possible commercial development - one does not even need planning permission - and the odds are the arbitrator will make an award based on this. On top of that there is a 9% top-up to help reinvest the money. To talk of price escalation of €5 million to €15 million is peanuts. Every day we are fighting cases at the arbitrator's with €2 million to €10 million at risk. It is completely out of our control.

Turning to the schedule for the completion of the project, even though I keep reading about it in the newspapers, this project is not a year behind schedule. The construction of the Sandyford line will be completed in March 2004, three months behind the contractual date. The construction of the Tallaght line will be completed in May 2004, seven months behind the contractual date. These delays stem from two sources. Most of the work on the Luas relates to digging up streets to find utilities lines. Despite the best technology in imaging, in practice it has proved almost impossible to predict exactly where those lines will be and this gives rise to cost escalations that are impossible to defend against. Secondly, it took a while for the major contractor to get its act together and this led to some delays. The intense effort of our agency is aimed at making sure the revised schedules are accepted. There is no mystery about this.

Regarding the Luas extension, we are currently in discussions about an extension from Sandyford to Cherrywood. We are also in consultation about an extension from Connolly Station to the Point Theatre. We have decided to adopt a principle where if extensions are to be fast tracked in the current financial climate, we expect the beneficiaries to provide at least 50% of the funding. After public consultation if we have that, we are prepared to go to the Minister regarding both lines. It is for the Minister to decide whether it should proceed to a railway order process.

The Dublin metro is an integral part of the Dublin Transportation Office's Platform for Change document. This is the template we operate under. Our job is to contribute the Luas and metro, Dublin Bus will contribute the bus ways and Irish Rail will contribute other aspects. The Government asked us to do two things in January 2002, the first of which is almost entirely misunderstood. The Government asked us to begin a procurement process, through a public private partnership, for a metro in Dublin from the airport to Shangannagh, including a spur to Blanchardstown. The Government also asked us to develop a business case for the metro so that when the consultation process with the private sector was completed and before the Government decided to seek tenders, it would have all the information about the business case and the costs that were likely to be incurred.

This is central to the discussion on the process in which we are engaged. We began the public procurement process, under EU guidelines, in March 2002. We spent 2002 in consultation with the private sector. In January 2003 we pre-qualified 18 candidates with the experience necessary to develop a metro. One of our objectives is to maintain Ireland's credibility with those 18 international groups. We expect to be able to go to those groups in the near future and tell them if the Government is going to proceed with the procurement for a metro. We expect to be in a position to communicate this in July. If the decision of the Government is positive, we anticipate that the candidates will form consortia and enter a bidding process. It is important that we keep faith with these pre-qualified international candidates.

The second aspect of our mandate was to prepare a business case for the Government. We submitted this to the Minister in November 2002. In preparing the case, we had available to us leading experts and technical specialists, such asParsons Brinckerhof from the US, KPMG and Masons Solicitors. We recommended to the Minister that a metro from the city centre to the airport and on to Swords should be proceeded with as a first phase. In reaching this recommendation, the fundamental objective of the RPA was to provide the Government with a highly informed and robust estimate of the potential costs the State would encounter once it embarked on a PPP. It is imperative that the Government knows what the bill will be before it makes a decision. Once the decision is made, the private sector bidders have to engage in a complex and expensive process of preparing a bid. It is important that the bill from the competitive process should not carry any surprises for the Government. Otherwise, the Government would have to abort the process and the reputation of the State would be torn to shreds. Our agency is determined to assist the Government in avoiding that. The figures we have put forward are estimates of the potential bill, and I find it strange that we are under public attack because we have attempted to put into the public arena all the possible costs the Government may encounter. We have done that to avoid having to abort an international bidding process for a metro in two years time because we had not fully informed the Government of the risks. The figure is an estimate. There is a bidding process and we would expect bidders to come up with innovative ideas, new ways of doing things and be cheaper. In the process, the most efficient and cheapest group will win. We have based these estimates on current laws and procedures in relation to public hearings, environmental impact statements and so on. It is open to the Government to look at variations in these and to short cut procedures and routes that will save on cost.

The figure of €4.8 billion which is in the public arena is being compared with the raw construction costs on metros in other countries so most of the comparisons between that figure and other jurisdictions are completely erroneous. Our estimates of the final outturn cost for the city centre to airport line take into account not just construction costs but project risk, design and project management fees, insurance costs, escalation costs, interest during construction and reserves for maintenance and renewals. This is a current cash money figure. If I convert that into net present value discounted, it would be €3.3 billion. Our estimate for the construction aspect of the Dublin metro puts it on a par with most international metros in the range of €100 million to €150 million per kilometre for outturn construction costs, including Copenhagen, London docklands, Paris, Baltimore and the San Francisco airport extension. Madrid airport is a notable extension to the generality of the international experience, where the cost is around €50 million per kilometre.

We had an estimate of €37 million here last week.

I have a figure of €50 million for that. Frank Allen and his team at the RPA were part of a delegation, led by Andy Cullen of the Department of Transport, which visited Madrid and examined its experience in detail. We are now working with the Department in analysing options for acceleration and cost reduction, based on whatever can be usefully learned from the Spanish experience and applied here. This is a proper exercise and one in which we are fully engaged.

There are three categories of difference between Ireland and Madrid. The first consists of proposals which could be adopted in Dublin but which would impact on passenger comfort, including higher passenger densities and reduced numbers of escalators and lifts. The second category includes ideas which could be adopted in Dublin if existing practice and policy on design standards and construction methodology were changed to bring them into line with practice in Spain. This includes specific ideas such as a single tunnel instead of twin tunnels, a reduced number of escape shafts and 24 hours per day, seven days per week tunnelling. However, some of these ideas would be inconsistent with the draft Irish Rail design guidelines. The final category consists of issues about which it would be difficult to do something. This includes the difference between local labour rates, which are on average 43% higher in Ireland than in Spain, different ground conditions which allowed much higher tunnelling rates in Spain than have been achieved in the Dublin Port tunnel, the fact that much of the Madrid metro was built under wide suburban streets which made traffic diversion much simpler and the fact that Madrid was extending an existing system where design standards and specifications already existed. It is also worth noting that no land acquisition costs arose in Madrid as all land below 10 metres is deemed to be State property.

The metro project is essential for Dublin. The essence of the metro is that one can add on capacity because one has a dedicated line that does not intersect with anything else. It is either a dedicated over ground or underground line. Every examination of the needs of Dublin points to the fact that we must have a metro. While most people call this an airport metro, all the analysis we have carried out indicates that about 15% of the passengers will be airport related including passengers and employees. The other 85% would be serving the commuter communities on the north side and other areas that do not have access to commuter facilities. A metro in some form is essential and I look forward, as a result of this process and the ideas which we have learned, to coming up with specification and hopefully lower cost estimates and it entering the marketplace.

A significant project is integrated ticketing.

I ask all members to ask one question because we are under a huge time constraint.

Mr. White referred to a highly informed and robust estimate of the potential cost and was giving out that people question the figure of €4.6 billion. However, does he not think it is a legitimate question for people, especially this committee, to ask why some people tell us it would cost €600 million? I know Mr. White infers that it is a low standard underground metro but is it not legitimate for us to ask how it could possibly cost €4.6 billion, when others estimate it costing €600 million?

In relation to the Luas cost over run, Mr. White stated last year, as chairperson of the Light Rail Advisory and Action Group, that the timetable would be substantially achieved, yet 12 months later we are running behind schedule. He stated just 12 months ago that the people of Dublin would be on the Luas this year and yet that has not happened. Is Mr. White prepared to stand over those revised dates now and when will we see Luas up and running?

In relation to——

That is more than one question.

With all due respect, this is the only opportunity available to us.

We will have no time.

On a point of order, in private session we acknowledged that we would not have enough time and that we would have a second meeting to deal with this matter. We put in two hours last week with another group dealing with the metro. Before we go any further, can we make an arrangement regarding holding that second meeting as soon as possible? We will have to conclude here in 20 minutes or less.

Ten minutes.

It is impossible. Asking people to put one question each will disorientate the entire process because there will be no follow on.

I will be as brief as I can.

It will cost €30 million to knock down the ramp, €7 million in compensation to the docklands authority and between €5 million and €15 million to adhere to the light rail order and to deal with the health and safety implications for Irish Rail, so we could be looking at a cost of more than €44 million for the removal of this ramp, which would have paid for the construction of the Luas right down to the Point Theatre. Mr. Allen concluded in April of this year that the removal of this ramp was unnecessary due to the extension of the Point. It was only 12 months ago that the contract was signed to remove that ramp, in the face of strong opposition from the docklands authority, Irish Rail, Bus Éireann andConnex, which was supposed to be running this operation. Could Mr. White tell me what was the opinion of the executive of the RPA in relation to the removal of the ramp? Who was actually in favour of it? We have heard who was not in favour of it.

At the moment, Mr. Allen is chief executive officer of the RPA. What is the role of the acting chief executive officer, Mr. Donal Mangan? What is his cost to the RPA? What is the cost of his salary and benefits and those of the current chief executive officer? What is the current status of his position and what action has been taken to resolve the current situation? Is a resolution close?

Other than those mentioned, what other plans has the RPA to extend the light rail? What type of planning and design is going on at the moment? Mr. White stated that the RPA was a highly professional and innovative agency. With that in mind, why has the RPA informed staff that they will only have a job until next October? What will be the status of the staff after that? Is it the case that the RPA has allocated €18 million for consultants for the next 12 months?

This has not turned out to be the kind of session we had expected. We were supposed to concentrate on the metro and get a breakdown of the figures being used. Can Mr. White tell us how many staff are in the RPA and its budget for the current year? Mr. White said that the Luas would carry thousands of passengers. What precisely is the peak-time capacity of Luas, as proposed at this point? What is the RPA doing about the mess that is likely to arise at the Red Cow roundabout?

In relation to the metro, we were all outraged at the suggested figure of €4.8 billion for providing a relatively short metro line from the city centre to the airport. Perhaps Mr. White could tell us how much has been spent on the metro to date. He made reference to umpteen consultants and advisers in his presentation. We are finding it very difficult to discuss this matter in any kind of detail when we have not got a copy of the outline business case. We have asked the Minister to provide this for us and I hope the Chairman will pursue that and that we will get it within the next few days. What concerns me is that the RPA seems to have approached this whole project within the confines that were there. It did not manage to think outside the box in terms of the difficulties with the planning process, land acquisition and the kind of public contracts that are used. If the RPA wanted to bring in this project at an acceptable cost, it would have considered ways of doing that, including changes to legislation, particularly in the planning area, and this would have been its starting point. It would have looked at all the bottlenecks in our legislation and procedures and made recommendations to Government, rather than operating within the current confines, which are inadequate, and inviting expressions of interest.

I expected this morning that the RPA would provide a breakdown of the outrageous figure of €4.8 billion, but it has not done so. I ask it to do so because that is what we want to hear. I sat in my car listening to Mr. White's extended interview on "Today with Pat Kenny" a few weeks ago because I wanted to get some answers, but at the end of it I was none the wiser. How did the RPA come up with this figure of €4.8 billion?

Mr. White referred to the fact that an excellent metro was provided in Madrid at a very competitive price. What investigations did the RPA carry out into this? Has Mr. White been over there? Did he check out exactly how it was done? Has he made recommendations to Government on how we could achieve this at a similar cost? Obviously, land acquisition costs are problematic. Land is expensive and the process is slow. Surely it would make sense to have an entirely underground system from the city centre to the airport or at least north of Ballymun. Why did the RPA not consider this? Why did it not think in terms of the outline design of a system and how it could be done most competitively before inviting expressions of interest? My understanding at the moment is that it will be only partly underground. Why did the RPA not go for a fully underground option?

I apologise that I will have to leave shortly for the Seanad. I hope our guests will be able to come in again for a more detailed discussion on this issue. I welcome them and I welcome the information they have given us, particularly the material presented by Mr. White about the property arbitration costs and so on - it is useful to know this kind of thing. I am also very much heartened by the fact that they have all committed themselves to a metro system, which is vital. Apparently we are stuck with the Luas, but it will have no impact whatsoever except to complicate things. It was mentioned that the Luas would move thousands of people. Thousands of people would fit into a shoe. That will not make the slightest difference to the traffic. We know this; it is the argument we have made over the years in favour of a metro. We talk about land costs and the moving of services. Why did people not know this already? We put it on the record in the Seanad that this would be a principal problem and that the only way to go was underground.

I do have sympathy for Mr. White. He was a very able chairman of the IDA, but I do not know that he has a huge background in transport economics and so on. I heard the interview on "Today with Pat Kenny". I know interviews can be very difficult sometimes - one may know things but may be put on the spot suddenly. What is puzzling to me, however, is that he seemed to have difficulty in detailing the length, for example, of the underground section. Perhaps that was a variable.

Why were solicitors involved? Presumably they had some technical legal information fromLondon, and I would like to know what this was. Three years for planning and five for building adds up to eight years. The metro system inMadrid was done in less than two years. The RPA timescale is intolerable and once a time as long as that is fixed upon, one automatically builds in a factor of cost escalation, inflation and so on. The timescale must be as short as possible. If this means a side by side contract as in Madrid, let us do that.

Labour costs were mentioned. We are in the European Union and the whole thing has to go out to contract. If the Spanish workers are 40% cheaper than ours, let us have them in. This is taxpayers' money. Why should we indulge an inflated industry in this country at the expense of the taxpayer? Mr. White was coy about saying the costs, but we have already mentioned the figure of €4.8 billion. That is all people need to know. All we know is that if it comes in under that we have blown the gaff. The committee has not been given the details. I feel like Flann O'Brien - if I hear the argument about different ground conditions again, I will surely froth at the gob. I have heard this for 20 years, but it is not true - except that according to the expert information we got here, the soil conditions are more favourable. It is easier to tunnel here than in Madrid. I can remember when we were told that we could not have an underground metro in Dublin because there was a river. People must not have noticed that the Seine, the Hudson and the Thames were also rivers.

There is much more I could say, but I apologise for having to leave. I must point out to the delegates that although we are obliged to question and probe, we are on their side. We want to help them to have a metro built and to do this at the best possible cost to the taxpayer.

Let me deal with one of the central issues, namely the €4.8 billion. The €4.8 billion represents the total cost from start to finish in current money terms. It is not the construction cost of the project. The construction costs of the project are approximately one third of that. As I said in my comments——

Can Mr. White give us a breakdown?

Perhaps Mr. White can give us an exact breakdown.

What is the purpose of this morning's meeting, for goodness sake, if not to get the breakdown of that figure? Has Mr. White got it?

I can give the Deputy certain elements of the breakdown.

We would like all of them, if Mr. White does not mind.

Sorry, I do feel constrained by the fact that we are engaged in a competitive public tender process.

We appreciate that but one of the things that absolutely amazes this committee is that, with all due respect, we get groups in who come up with a price and then say it has escalated enormously. As Mr. White said himself earlier, they then say it is easy to see why it went up. Mr. White has put a €4.8 billion price tag on this project. I do not see why we cannot get an exact breakdown of that or how this could possibly conflict with any commercial bidding that will hopefully happen.

I shall go as far as I can to be helpful to the committee. I am simply making the point——

On a point of order, we are an Oireachtas committee. We are entitled to get all the information available to any group that is responsible to this committee. We have to get that. It frightens me to think that we have an estimated cost in Madrid of €37 million, which was proved to us here at our last meeting, for a proper working system, yet we have estimated costs of between €100 million and €150 million in Dublin. This is not acceptable. We are responsible for spending taxpayers' money and we are entitled to know how it is being spent. We are also entitled to know what processes have been used and are going to be used with regard to this entire project. That is why I said that the one hour we were going to have for this meeting was totally inadequate.

We have been informed that we can continue.

I am setting out to be as helpful as possible. I am simply making the point, in the public interest, that we are engaged in a competitive process. That is the point I am making.

We are trying to figure out whether it is in the public interest.

Fine, but it is fair for me——

Could Mr. White please provide the breakdown figures now?

It is fair for me to point out that this is part of a public procurement process, a competitive process involving potentially 18 pre-qualified people. I do not want to give them every single iota of every basis estimate. There is an issue here, that is all I am saying.

If there is going to be a competitive tendering process every iota has to be included in the bid, otherwise we will get extras added on, as is happening with Luas.

All of the items must be included but not the actual cost assumptions that the Government is prepared to meet. That is what one does not want to tell people. One does not want to tell people that one is prepared to pay X——

We have done that.

I do not think that anybody is prepared to pay €4.8 billion.

We have already told people that we are going to give the RPA €84 million in risk allocation. Mr. White can send in the bill for that.

I want to be helpful, while confined by the fact that we are engaged in a competitive process. Of the €4.8 billion, the important fact is that the direct capital cost included is of the order of €1.7 billion. People compare the €4.8 billion cost with that of other systems, but €1.7 billion is the relevant figure they should be using.

Again within the context of ensuring that the Government knows the full extent of the bill, there are allowances for the risk elements in a major project, for all of the design fees——

Can Mr. White please give us figures?

I am just about to give the committee figures. There is the risk element, the design fees and insurance.

How much is the risk element?

Approximately €900 million.

What about design fees?

We are all getting into a knot on this. Some 50% is being allowed for the risk element in this project. Have we not got engineers and consultants? There is a bill for consultancy in this for €18 million, which I think somebody mentioned already. Are these consultants not able to give the necessary information and calculate the risk?

Perhaps Mr. White can give us the rest of the figures first.

How much are the design fees?

The figure for the risk element, design fees and insurance is €900 million.

Is that figure for all three elements - the risk element, insurance and design?

That is €900 million.

Yes. There is cost escalation of roughly €800 million. We should bear in mind that this project will take place over a period of eight years.

(Interruptions).

Let Mr. White answer——

If my hearing was correct, Mr. White said at the outset that the risk element only was €900 million. Now he says that this figure includes design fees and insurance——

I do not know what Deputy Ellis is trying to do with me.

I am not trying to do anything to Mr. White, with all due respect.

I had started to list the items under a certain group of headings——

I am quite happy if the figure is €900 million. I am actually happier than with a figure of €900 million just for the risk element.

There is a cost escalation figure of roughly €800 million. The VAT bill is roughly €460 million. That gives a total capital cost of roughly €3.9 billion. There is an allowance for financing costs——

Was that not €4.8 billion? What normally happens is that we get written details of projected costs. We fail to understand why we cannot be given a comprehensive report on where the €4.8 billion is being spent, as opposed to us tallying it up on the back of a cigarette packet.

Could we adjourn for five minutes to allow Mr. White and Mr. Allen the opportunity to discuss which numbers they can share with us? Maybe the Clerk can be helpful in photocopying those numbers so we can then have a proper discussion, rather than the drip feeding of information we are getting at present. The two gentlemen could be allowed to decide what they can share with us and we could then debate the issue. Would that be helpful?

I was rounding the figures up. I will give the actual figures that make up the €4.8 billion total. The direct capital cost in 2002 prices is €1.72 billion. The risk and insurance fees are €903 million. The cost escalation component is €811 million. The VAT cost is €458 million. The total capital cost, therefore, is €3.892 billion. If it is a PPP it has to be financed, and in the repayment schedule over the service period of roughly 15 years, the State eventually pays all of that funding back. The interest during construction for the financing of the PPP is €676 million. Financial fees and various financial reserves amount to €313 million. The total funding requirement, therefore, is €4.881 billion in current money terms. If this figure was not translated into present value it would be €3.3 billion.

The purpose of this exercise is, under existing laws and procedures, to tell the Government that if it embarks on a PPP for this metro this is our estimate of the bill it may well incur using the best experts we can get and looking at the generality of experiences not just in Madrid but elsewhere. It is our duty to have set that out. We are now in the process of discussion with the Government. Departments are reviewing our assessment, seeing if the specification can be changed, if procedures can be accelerated, if the laws can be changed, if the tunnelling procedures can be varied and so on.

Why was that not done first? It is not a case of a blank cheque where one invites expressions of interest and people can submit whatever prices they like. What work did the RPA do to streamline the procedures and look at the best and most cost-effective model? Surely that should have been done before inviting expressions of interest.

The expressions of interest only indicate this. They pre-qualify those who will bid. No bidding process has started yet.

The bidding process can begin only when the Government makes the decision to proceed to tender. That is the point we are coming up to. Our duty is to explain to Government the potential future cost. The process we are engaged in now with Government is to decide on the parameters of that project and the procedures so that then it goes out to tender and all the people with ideas can bid.

All of these people must be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a €4.6 billion budget. If your costs are as you describe them you must have fallen around your office laughing at the Dublin metro group and the Spanish quoting €600 million, saying this price is loco. They are not saying it is loco, they are saying it is a real stand-up price.

The essence of the process is that it is up to the Dublin metro group, and any other group, when this is opened up, to bid. If the Government proceeds it is up to them to compete and demonstrate that they can do this more cheaply and more efficiently. That is what a competition is about.

Chairman, can I get answers to my questions please?

Can I get answers to mine please? How much has the RPA spent to date, for example?

The Chairman asked about the €4.8 million and I have tried to elaborate on that. Deputy Naughten asked a series of questions. Luas was due to open this year but construction will be completed three months behind schedule and it will open early next year at Sandyford. The construction of the Sandyford line——

Will it be operating in the second half of next year?

Not the second half of next year. It will be completed——

We were told it would not be completed until March and that it will take two to three months to commission it.

It will be operating in May of next year.

Is the RPA standing over the promise that it will be operational in May? Is this the same as the comment last year that it would be operational this year, when it will not be? We are told repeatedly that it is going to be operational but nothing has happened.

That is the basis on which we are working. The energies of the RPA and its staff are concentrated on that timetable. In regard to the Connolly ramp, the position of the RPA is that there were two public hearings held about the extension of the Luas from Middle Abbey Street to Connolly Station and it is our job to implement those, and that is what we are doing. It would have been wrong to abrogate the result of two public hearings which took all these matters into account. I cannot predict exactly when there will be an extension to the Docklands because that depends on the consultation and on the Minister's decisions.

I will not deal with the various figures the Deputy has given for the cost. For example, we have come to no conclusions about compensation for the Dublin Docklands. It would be undemocratic for the RPA as a State agency to ignore the law of the land and not to implement a Railway Order for the extension to Connolly from Middle Abbey Street depriving passengers from Tallaght of that link for an indefinite number of years.

Would Mr. White agree that the RPA is the only State agency that was in favour of the removal of the ramp and can he clarify the position of his own executive on that?

Mr. White: These matters were all thrashed out at two public hearings of the railways inspectorate and CIE eventually put forward the solution, including the ramp. It was part of the proposal. I do not propose to go into the views of individual staff or staff groups except to say that there was a detailed review by the board which unanimously agreed that the Railway Orders promulgated by the State should be implemented.

Does the RPA support Mr. Allen's comments——

Is the Deputy referring to the comments that it was pointless?

I did not make the statement that was attributed to me in one newspaper to the effect that it was unnecessary. Another newspaper on the same day quoted me correctly as saying that the discussion was irrelevant. I did not make that statement and wrote to correct the newspaper the following day and the letter was published. That is not my view and I never made that statement. I see absolutely no basis for Deputy Naughten's estimate of €44 million for the Connolly ramp. Under no circumstances could any addition of the money even in the worst case come up to anything remotely similar to that.

Can Mr. Allen furnish the committee with the exact figures? If necessary he can furnish them at a later date.

The completion of the terminus of line C at Connolly ramp is part of the overall budget for the development of Luas so to separate out a particular stop and say what it costs——

There is an agreement with Irish Rail about health and safety implications and so forth that have to be resolved as well. Is that not the case?

We are about to enter into a draft agreement to assure Irish Rail that the construction of the light rail stop at Connolly ramp will not have any adverse impact on health and safety. That is a construction matter to ensure that we do our work according to their standards and we are complying with that. There could not be an associated incremental cost because it would be our policy in any case to ensure that best practice in terms of health and safety is complied with at that work front. The estimate of millions of euro for that has no substance.

Can I have an answer to my other two questions?

What were the other two questions?

They concerned the chief executive officer and the acting chief executive officer.

There was a competition for the position of chief executive of the new agency. Frank Allen won that competition. The director of the light rail project office has challenged that and it is in legal process.

So it is not resolved.

No, it is not resolved and therefore——

What is the remuneration and cost of that position which is using State money?

As we are engaged in a legal process I am reluctant to go into detail on that except to say that the former director, pending the decision by the courts, continues to be paid at the previous remuneration.

So it is a matter for the courts now.

Was it not possible to resolve it outside the courts?

That is correct.

Did the Local Appointments Commission handle that?

No, the board of the RPA appointed the chief executive.

Using what recruitment procedure?

I am not clear on your question.

I would have thought that being a senior position it would come under the LAC.

No. The Railway Procurement Agency is an independent State commercial agency. It is the responsibility of the board toselect and appoint the chief executive.

It is a very tight timetable.

Is the figure of €18 million spent on consultants correct?

I do not believe so. There are consultants assigned to various parts of the Luas project, for example, and there will be a cost associated with that. There are costs associated with consultants working on metro. Consultants vary according to different tasks. I do not have a total for that.

Has the board approved an allocation of €18 million for the use of consultants for the next 12 months? Yes or no.

Chairman, is that correct, yes or no?

Unfortunately, in terms of answering the question, we do not divide the allocation between staff and consultants. There are estimated costs for each project, and particular tasks to be done.

Is there €18 million set aside, or some such sum?

No. I cannot say, off the top of my head, how much money may have been involved in consultants for Luas, how much for consultants for metro, and so on. I have not got those figures, but there is no budget of €18 million.

I asked at the start that people would ask one question, and that was turned down by the committee. The committee decided it wanted to ask a lot of different questions. They are all legitimate questions. We have already agreed we will invite the RPA, Mr. White and his colleagues, here again. We should let things go ahead and answer the questions put by various Deputies, and when our time slot ends, we will, I hope, get more figures for the next meeting.

The big problem arising for committee members is that specific questions are being asked for which specific replies are not forthcoming. The normal procedure for those coming before an Oireachtas committee is they will bring with them details with regard to their expenditure right across the board, let it be on consultancies or anything else, right down to salary scales. I can understand the frustration being felt by committee members, and I understand the frustration felt by Mr. White and his people. They were probably not made aware that there would be so many detailed questions on the issue. We are going to spend half a day here without getting answers. We need to have made available to us all details with regard to consultants.

Could we do that for the next meeting? In the interim, there are legitimate questions being asked by committee members which I want answered.

That is fine. Can we now fix a date for the next meeting?

Let us do that at the end of the meeting.

Deputy Naughten asked if we have informed staff that they will have no jobs after October. We certainly have not. Clearly, there is a lot of work to be done on Luas to reach completion next year, and a lot of work to be done on the metro, integrated ticketing and many other issues. We are in a transitional mode where most of the staff retained prior to the establishment of the RPA were on contract for the construction of Luas. It was project-specific in that way. Now that we are within a year of completing Luas, staff are obviously asking if there is a future there for them and if they have reasonable job expectations beyond the next few months. This is particularly so because some of the Luas related tasks are now reaching conclusion.

We have informed staff that we are working towards appointing people on a permanent basis, and we have set a deadline for that, with October mentioned. We have also told other staff that even though some of their work has finished, there is a lot of work on Luas still to be done. We are developing a work programme to the end of October and asking people to perhaps engage in work outside their specific field. We have also told them that we are working on several other projects and are reviewing the staff requirements for the long-term, including appointing people on a permanent basis, and looking at what skills set we needed to develop Luas in the way we did, and what skills set we will need for Luas extensions, for metro and for various other projects.

The Deputy mentioned the possible extensions of Luas. The first of the two extensions actively under negotiation at present is the one from Sandyford to Cherrywood, where the basis of an agreement has been reached with developers there, also involving Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. It awaits confirmation by the developers that they are in a position to proceed. The consultation process in the docklands area has just commenced. Those are the two extensions actively under consideration now.

Regarding Deputy Shortall's query about the staff and budget of the RPA, you may ask the chief executive.

There is a staff of approximately 130 people. The budget for the year pertains to more than the staff. There is an Exchequer allocation to the RPA of approximately €12.5 million, but as well as covering staff costs, it also covers accommodation, preliminary design work on other projects and the work on Luas extensions. All of that is included in that budgetary allocation.

The Red Cow issue is the subject of a detailed appraisal by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan. He has independent advisers working on that.

Is it not the job of the RPA to appraise projects?

No. The RPA's job is to appraise the light rail project. The wider aspects of transport, of light rail, involve many other parties. In this case they involve the National Roads Authority, the Dublin Transportation Office and obviously the Department of Transport as a co-ordinating group. The Minister for Transport is involved in finding a resolution among all the different parties.

Ensuring a satisfactory interface between Luas and the national roads system must surely be part of the RPA's job. Why, at this point, is it being appraised by yet another group of consultants?

As an agency, we cannot unilaterally resolve all the interface issues. They involve many other parties beyond the RPA. I would have thought it entirely appropriate for the Department of Transport, now that we have such a specialised Department, to seek——

I would have thought it was an integral part of the design of Luas - forgive me if I am wrong.

It is a very important issue. The RPA cannot solve all the consequential traffic, transport and construction issues that arise from a light rail or a metro.

What about capacity?

The capacity at five-minute peak periods on the Sandyford line is 2,800 passengers per hour in one direction, and the figure for Tallaght is 3,700 per hour in each direction. The capacity can be substantially increased by increasing the frequency of trams from five to four minutes, and so on, and in the medium term by adding on to the size of wagons for example. Taking the Sandyford line, it would be possible to double the capacity through a combination of faster runs and some additions to the 30 metre trams on that line.

That does not require an extension of the stock.

No. Deputy Shortall asked a series of questions in relation to the metro. I have given the outline figures. In relation to thinking outside the box, the RPA as a board, along with management, and with the best expertise we could get, looked at all the different aspects of the issue in terms of how we might accelerate the bidding process and under our current law accelerate the actual hearings, the referencing of land and so on. The schedule we have, for example from zero to two and a half to three years, to get a Railway Order done, with every bit of land referenced through a public hearing, to comply with current law, requires a very dedicated effort. In parallel with that we were going to complete the bidding process, so that both would be done as quickly as possible allowing for the hearings and the law in that regard.

One of the main differences between, for example, our system and that of Madrid, is that as far as I know, environmental impact assessments are absolutely minimal in Madrid - indeed they were not done - and there were no public hearings, and so on. These are big issues. I do not think it would have been right for us to give an estimate to the Government based on fundamental changes like this. The process in which we are now engaged is very creative and constructive, involving the Department and various parties. Given the pressing need to bring the metro on stream, it is urgently examining how we can do it, perhaps in a way never contemplated in Ireland before, reducing specifications and other matters about which we have talked today, including 24 hour tunnelling. All those have a dramatic impact.

I am sorry, but should you not set the metro's parameters first and examine ways of speeding up procedures before you go to tender? How can you do that in parallel?

There is a fundamental misunderstanding here between us. We have not gone to tender. All that has happened is that——

You have invited expressions of interest.

"Expressions of interest" means only that we are contemplating a line from the airport to Shanganagh, nothing more. The purpose is simply to validate and pre-qualify people who would be interested. Only when they are pre-qualified do we get into any detail. There is no detailed documentation or tenders involved.

Is it twin or single bore, underground or overground?

If I want an extension to my house, I do not say that I will spend £500,000 and send out the information to all the builders. That is what you seem to be doing with the €4.6 billion figure hanging over everything. If you were not giving out a figure, people would say how much you privately estimate that the scheme will cost was commercially sensitive. Here it seems to be the wrong way around.

I have gone to the limit of my capacity to explain the precise make-up of the €4.6 billion and, more significantly, why that figure was given to the Government.

Is that the figure for the line from the airport to the city or from the airport to Shanganagh?

From the airport to the city.

Even though the expressions of interest were——

How much is underground?

The underground section is approximately six of the 12 kilometres.

So half of it is underground. Perhaps I might ask one more question. How much has been spent on the metro to date?

The amount spent to date is €4 million.

I welcome the delegation. Perhaps it might be useful if we could get some indication of your team's background, including engineering and financial qualifications. Most of the questions that I intended to ask have been asked already. I have only one, regarding the point that Deputy Naughten raised about staff relations. It is common knowledge to everyone here - it was in the newspapers - that another member or former member of staff is also taking a court action. Is there some sort of problem in the organisation concerning staff relations and the culture developing?

Some of my questions concern the metro and some the light rail project. You are using two different types of carriages on the latter. Are they compatible on the line?

You said that you felt you could increase capacity regarding the numbers you can carry. How long will that take? What will happen if you discover that you have a 25% deficit in carrying capacity? I ask because you will have to get the necessary rolling stock. What is the time lead-in for that? Might we get a copy of the agreement with Connex to see the exact details regarding the implications for the State? It would be of interest to the general public as well as to committee members.

Why was no effort made to secure fixed-price contracts for Luas? The over-runs listed are serious. An attempt should have been made to get such fixed-price contracts. That probably happened before you came into being, but fixed-price contracting should have been considered. What has the cost of your employing consultants been regarding light rail, Luas and the metro? Are there any penalties in place for the late completion of Luas? It is now running probably 12 months behind schedule. Is there any penalty for the contractors for not finishing on time?

Might we also have the list of the 18 groups who are pre-qualified to bid for the metro contract? The public will want to know. What were the criteria regarding their selection? Did they have to show their financial viability and technical ability? What did they have to do to get on the tender list?

I could ask about Luas, but I might save that for another day. I am particularly concerned that the Government must decide within the next month about this hugely important metro project for Dublin. I would love to say, as some members have said, that it should cost €600 million and take two years, but I do not believe that is possible. I appreciate the members of the RPA for being honest and trying to put the worst case scenario, as I view the €4.6 billion. Our job must now be to see how that might be done more cheaply, and I hope that the Government parties' faith in competition to bring down prices will extend to this area so that they allow a bidding process to begin. Then we can see the cheapest bid. If Madrid can do it more cheaply inDublin, let us bring them over, as Senator Norris suggested.

There seem to be three significant ways in which money might be saved and the bill brought down. The first concerns risk. You have not broken down the first figure of €903 million between risk elements, design fees and insurance. I would be interested to know, as a rough percentage, how much of that is for risk. My understanding of the PPP process is that its one advantage is that the private sector is meant to carry any risk. The reason we are getting the 18 experienced international consortia in, who have spent years tunnelling elsewhere, and doing the project on a PPP basis is that the State would not have to carry the risk. My understanding of the PPP is that the construction risk was meant to be carried by the operator.

Secondly, once again with regard to possible savings, the financing figure was roughly €700 million for interest during the construction period. Have you worked out what the saving would be if that were State investment, with the State paying for the financing rather than the private sector, which obviously has a much higher interest rate and profit margins to account for? Can you provide a figure for the Government to show what the savings would be if the State were the major investor, rather than relying on private funding, which is by its nature more expensive?

My third point concerns the one physical change that we could make. I would like to see two, but one which may be a possible saving is to have a single bore rather than a twin bore system. The Minister, when questioned by us in recent days, ruled that out, saying that we should go for the tip-top, very best product possible. I know that twin bore tunnels tend to be recommended in our own draft regulations and English systems. However, many other countries opt for a single bore tunnel. Have we completely ruled that out? Do you have a rough indication of what savings would accrue if we went for a single bore instead of a twin? A rough percentage will do. Can you give examples from other countries which have gone for single bore?

My main criticism with regard to your proposals is the lack of connectivity to the Sandyford line. As you rightly say, this metro system is not an airport route but primarily one to get people in Dublin out of their cars and into work in 20 minutes rather than in an hour every morning. However, I do not understand how that can work effectively if there is no proper connection to the Sandyford line. I know that you are discussing possibilities whereby one would get on an escalator and change from one system to another. Very roughly, what might the cost implications be of continuing on to the Sandyford line?

Perhaps I might pick up on the earlier comments. Deputy Brady mentioned staff issues. I am aware only of the case to which we referred earlier. I know of no other legal case proceeding against us.

It was in the Sunday Business Post.

I do not believe everything I read in the Sunday Business Post. I believe that the——

Is that the meeting in general or the Sunday Business Post in particular?

I plead the Fifth Amendment.

It is important to say that we have had tremendous commitment from contract staff who are present in relation to the Luas. There has been considerable change in the organisation to equip it to carry out this much bigger mandate under the Act. Any staff issues are minimal in that context, and I am pleased about that. I will ask the chief executive to deal with the specific issues raised by Deputy Ellis.

Regarding the increasing capacity of the service, there are two variables. The first is that it is run more frequently, and we can run it more frequently in terms of the facilities. We have the infrastructure to run every four or five minutes, for example, without further investment. We could run it more frequently than that with some investment but it would have implications for other traffic in the city and we would have to work that out with the local authorities. The timing in regard to increasing frequency is very short-term.

On the other variable, we have 30 metre and 40 metre trams. The 30 metre trams are modular so an additional 10 metres can be added to make them 50 metre trams. Technically that is rather easy to do, although there is a lead time in terms of negotiating and ordering those new modules. It would probably be close to a year by the time that was done but that is something we had thought about. When Luas starts and if we find we are quickly reaching the limits of capacity, we have considered the steps we would take to deal with that.

On that point, Mr. Allen said the capacity could be increased but that will cause difficulties in terms of other modes of transport in the city. What is the maximum capacity in regard to the Luas vis-à-vis the current capacity? Can it be doubled?

Yes, it could. When I said we have run into difficulties, the local authorities determine priority of traffic lights. The issue becomes one of crossing junctions and we could not make those decisions on our own. That is something that would have to be discussed in detail with the local authorities as it would result in changes in traffic management arrangements in the city. The five minute headway could be increased to a two and a half minute headway within the technical limits of the Luas. We could double the frequency, therefore, but it would——

All other road users would be brought to a standstill.

No, but it would have implications at the major junctions, and that is something we would have to discuss with them.

It would be possible to double the capacity on the Sandyford line, is that not correct?

Yes, in terms of the number of passengers we could double the capacity. That is certainly achievable.

On that aspect, were any surveys done with regard to the potential number of people who will use it? It is probably better to do it now than when it was originally mooted because people see that the rail is going down.

The distinction the Deputy makes is appropriate because many surveys have been done by the Dublin Transportation Office, and updated by ourselves. There has been a huge increase in the number of trips people take to Dublin, which we need to take into account. The international experience has been that for something which is quite new such as trams, those sort of surveys tend to be a little unreliable but we update our assessments of passenger numbers, look at land use planning, etc. all the time. That is an ongoing process and part of our transportation planning which we do for the lines being implemented and extensions. We are working on that all the time.

The Deputy mentioned Connex. We can provide the details of the arrangements with Connex in terms of what it is required to do and so forth. We would have to consider whether there is sensitivity with regard to some of the commercial arrangements but we can provide much more information about what Connex is required to do, when it will be penalised and when it will be advised to get more passengers. All that information can be provided.

In terms of the reason we do not use fixed price contracts, the issue concerns the scope of work. We can have a fixed price contract to deal with a particular scope of work but then one finds that, for example, the complexity of the utilities under Harcourt Street are much greater than expected. A fixed price contract does not protect us in that case unless the fixed price is so high that they throw in every risk. It is better value for money to define the scope of work and if there is an additional scope of work, for example, an archaeological find which will have to be handled in the appropriate manner, that is a variation for the contractor. The contracts we have, particularly the design-build contracts, are intended to control to the extent possible variations and time delays arising from difficulties getting access to property and co-ordination with the utility companies, all of which can contribute to increased costs.

On the costs of consultants, as I mentioned to Deputy Naughten, I do not have a figure with me. When we assess our projects, budgets and so forth we do it on a project basis and then we resource those in terms of maximising staff, where possible, and the need for specialist assistance in terms of consultants. We do not say we will spend X amount on consultants next year but we can consider the possibility of extracting some of the costs of consultants.

Can we get the detail with regard to what the various consultancy firms were paid over the past 12 or 18 months? That might be an easier way to do it because Mr. Allen will know what was paid to the various consultants.

Also, the work those consultants did for the money they were paid.

We can provide without difficulty the list of 18 groups pre-qualified. On the criteria that applied, to put it very simply, these people have the wherewithal to do the work they say they will do. In terms of their track record, at this stage we are trying to have as inclusive a process as possible so as not to exclude people for any reason. Only a limited number of well-qualified people can do some of the tasks involved in the metro, such as tunnelling, etc. We are comfortable that most of the international leaders in that field have sought pre-qualification. We have pre-qualified them but there will come a day when we will have to give assurances to the people who live above the alignment that those who are tunnelling have the wherewithal to deal with issues of settlement, technical complexity, how to handle contaminated soil, etc. Those are the criteria that will apply but at this stage we are trying to have as inclusive a process as possible. We identified seven different specialisations to encourage people to participate, whether it is an operator or somebody who is involved in tunnelling, electrical or mechanical work. I think I have answered Deputy Ellis's questions.

Deputy Ryan asked if we had learned much from Madrid and if there were other ways of doing this. As part of our project preparation we went through very detailed value engineering exercises looking at the different scope of works and whether, if we were outside the city centre, we would need as much segregation. As part of the process we went through a thorough and rigorous analysis of the various options, whether it would be better to run underground all the way, the reason we need an elevated structure and the changes to the planning legislation that could be introduced. We prepared the outline business case based on existing safety regulations or planning rules. We felt it would not be appropriate to say we can do it for much less, but if the Government changed the law on public consultation, that would be an enormous change.

In the meantime, we have been discussing with the Department of Transport the changes that could be made. For example, we visited Madrid and spent some time speaking to the people there. We were amazed to hear that from the time the Government made a decision to the start of construction on the street was a matter of months, and we are talking about a very extensive period to do that. The people in Madrid explained that there is no public consultation or planning process, even for stations at surface level. There is no issue about property acquisition and no environmental impact statement.

Is there a Green Party policy on it?

A very important aspect of this is that we do not have a detailed design and specification for the metro because that would be part of the bidding process and part of a design-built, finance operated system. We would take the design to a certain level. The Madrid system had a design because of the amazing achievement in building metro over the past ten years. At the end of an 80 year period, 140 kilometres of metro had been built. Six Spanish contractors were involved who had extensive experience in tunnelling under the city centre of Madrid and it was possible to start a competitive process. They could move from design to construction immediately because the design was already done.

Some of the major differences in terms of programme and cost between what is projected in Dublin and the experience in other places centres on our concern with how much it will cost to design and launch a metro, while elsewhere the concern is with extensions where the design is already in place. Any concessionaire involved in a procurement process will be cautious about the risk of tunnelling under a city where, to date, only five kilometres has been tunnelled as part of the Dublin Port tunnel.

Our proposal to the Government is that we would not carry the risk. This is a high risk project of a technical nature but is of the kind that will provide incentives to leading international contractors. They bring their experience, be they involved in Spain, the United States or London. They will take the risk but they will charge for it. The Government can chose to retain the risk and pay more in due course or it can be transferred under a PPP structure to the private sector. People do not assume the risk free of charge.

The cost of the metro is concerned with the estimated cost as opposed to the outturn cost. The latter is a huge amount the contractors can reclaim from the Government because they had not anticipated various risk elements, such as contamination. Our strong recommendation to the Government is that in respect of these technical issues, leading international contractors, be they Spanish, French or whatever, can best assess the risk, price it accordingly and let the Government decide to proceed. I do not consider that to be a good risk for the Government to take, which is why in this case we consider the PPP process offers value for money.

However, as part of the process of getting approval for PPPs in general in Ireland, there is a requirement to undertake a value for money analysis and there is a pretty rigorous procedure to be worked out, which is agreed with the Department of Finance, in terms of establishing a comparitor to establish how much the project would cost if it was done by way of traditional procurement or under the PPP process. There are additional costs in terms of implementing a PPP process and it must be ascertained if it will offer value for money in terms of the contractor assuming the risk associated with, for example, tunnelling or patronage. That is part of the rigorous analysis in terms of the work we are required to do for the——

Under the PPP, there is a €700 million financing cost for the construction design period.

With regard to the 30 years of the operation of the scheme, am I right to assume that the financing cost would be approximately €100 million per year over the life of the project and, if so, is this cost counterbalanced by the revenue stream from the system?

No, that would not be a good analysis. It is important to understand that in the case of the PPP process, say it takes seven years before the first passengers use the metro, then under the typical PPP, not a cent will be paid to the concessionaire, unlike under a traditional procurement where stage payments are made, such as a 15% up front mobilisation payment and further payments for each stage of the project. If the concessionaire does not get it right and fails to complete the metro they get nothing. It is a genuine risk transfer to the private sector. However, there is a cost associated with the concessionaire taking on board the huge financing cost during that period. The cost is borrowed.

Sometimes when comparisons are made between the PPP and traditional procurement processes, it is assumed that there is no cost associated with the Government funding the project through the implementation period. There is a cost, but it is not included in the calculation.

The questions raised by Deputy Eamon Ryan go to the heart of this matter. How do we get this project done, how will it be delivered on time and how much will it cost? Will it cost the taxpayer or will it be done privately and what are the risk transfer implications?

In theory it could be postulated that it should not cost the State anything. The State should allow the contractors to proceed, charge what they want in a competitive market, finance and build it the way it wants within certain criteria and operate it. That is the classic design-built and operated finance model. Witnesses before the committee have indicated they can do this quickly with a minimum capital injection from the Exchequer and that they can provide the appropriate international bonding necessary in terms of completion, standards and such like. The main task of the Railway Procurement Agency is to provide a good and proper analysis of this.

How do you see the role of the RPA in these terms, taking into account the kind of proposals put forward by the Dublin metro group and others? In that context, how quickly can the project be done on the DBOF model and what would be the capital and hidden costs from the point of view of the Exchequer?

In theory, the suggestion that a concession could be granted to a private consortium on the basis that it can charge whatever it wishes, provided it does not seek any further funding from the Exchequer, could work. However, it should be recognised that for an expensive public infrastructure involving tunnelling - rail is more expensive than road - the international experience is that no one recovers the cost of investment. It has been attempted in a few places in Asia with aborted projects, but no one has yet developed an expensive infrastructure such as this on the basis that the full cost can be recovered with no cost to the Exchequer. In considering proposals from people who consider that can be done, we ask if it has been done somewhere before in comparable circumstances. I am not aware of it. We would also ask if there are reasons why it can be done in Ireland where it has not been achieved before. That is the kind of analysis we would undertake.

With what proportions are you concerned in that model?

It depends on fares policy and projections in terms of likely patronage, density of settlement in the city and how many passengers it can be realistically hoped to use the system. Many international systems regard it as a success if they cover their operating costs through the life of the project, including the costs involving maintenance, operations and safety. Internationally, that would be regarded as a success. Governments are trying to push people to recover as much of the capital costs as possible. That is what we are doing and what we will do in the future.

There are risks associated with patronage but we are focusing very much on the technical engineering risks, as a high proportion of the associated risks are of a technical nature. One has choices as to whether one really wants to push on one side to get people locked into taking the full risks associated with tunnelling in a city where it has not been done before or to push people on the risk associated with the number of passengers carried, which is governed by Government policy and fares, the extent of integration of transport used, etc. There is also density of settlement, as Dublin has a low-density population.

So Mr. Allen is saying that even though he would use a PPP model, the contractor or successful tender would still look to recover the capital cost from the Government?

There are different approaches. One which was used in successful implementation of PPPs recently is an availability charge. The concessionaire may be obliged to build, finance and operate a system for a 30 year period and is rewarded in terms of the quality of work done. If, after year 20, major reconstruction and maintenance work is needed it is at the concessionaire's expense. I am familiar with a project I negotiated in the Netherlands, where there is a 99% availability fee. If the concessionaire achieved less than 99% availability - the system running less than 99% of the time - then he was penalised and if it ran a few percentage points below that he got nothing. That is a genuine risk transfer to the private sector in terms of ensuring the Government gets the highest possible quality service and people are incentivised not just to get it going on day one but over a 30 year period. If after year 25 there are cracks under people's houses, the company getting the availability payment has to fix them. If the company does not do so it does not get any more money and the Government can terminate the concession. I regard that as genuine risk transfer and it is the kind of transfer we hope to achieve in dealing with companies which have experience of that in dealing with governments already.

Members mentioned proposals from theDublin Metro Group, which indicated here that it believes things can be done cheaply. Dublin Metro is part of a group bidding for the metro and we welcome any innovative ideas it has, be they Spanish, German or Japanese.

What is Mr. Allen's evaluation of that?

It would not be appropriate to do an assessment of one of the bidder's ideas here.

What questions would you ask?

I would have a lot of questions.

Our approach tries to be as inclusive as possible. We are trying to get those with experience to bid on this and to come up with ideas we may not have thought of arising from how this has been done elsewhere. We want to get the schedule out. Bidders are going to tell us they can only operate within the existing planning rules. None of them are going to say they will take a risk that they can do it quicker than the planning regulations provide for. That would not be a risk that is appropriate to transfer to the private sector; it would not be good value for money and they cannot deliver that. They can deliver top quality high performance systems over a 30 or 50 year period but it is difficult for a private consortium to say it can get going within a few months or a year. We know there is a lengthy preparation period with property referencing, EIS, public consultation, the process being subject to judicial appeal and so on. Some group may say it is not worried about such matters or that they are routine; however, the EIS for this project is a very complex document. What would happen to contaminated spoil, with noise or settlement? The public would be concerned about such issues.

The Dublin Metro dealt summarily with——

I welcome the group and compliment Mr. White on his presentation. He is in an unenviable position in that he has been left many issues as a legacy with which he now must deal. The Red Cow issue is one of those, though Mr. Sheedy might be able to address it. Mr. Allen talked of best practice being used for the metro and recognising that the same detailed process, involving the EIS, was not used in Madrid. I do not accept there is a white elephant on the Red Cow roundabout, pardon the pun. I travel through there a couple of times a week and while I do not have a transport engineering background I cannot accept the situation developing there. The Minister should not have to get involved either. Obviously a project team was put in place and there was a detailed design, while the local authorities were consulted on traffic lights, intersections and junctions. Where does the problem arise, if the delegation sees it as a problem? Perhaps Mr. Sheedy could address that. What sanction, if any, will be used against the consultant, adviser or whatever team came up with the traffic management proposal there?

I join with colleagues in welcoming Mr. White and his colleagues. I compliment him on his approach to the project. Whatever difficulties our committee has had, this was far more credible than a previous presentation. I put the Chair on notice that Mr. White may have unknowingly pointed out some of the unsatisfactory aspects of the committee procedure. I ask the Chair, when the public session is finished, to allow me to raise those in private session.

Is integrated ticketing on schedule? Are all providers on board? Specifically, have any allowances been made for the proposed privatisation of certain bus routes commencing on 1 January 2004? What constitutes the greater Dublin area? Does it extend to Dundalk, Mullingar andCarlow? Will the smart card facility be available to those using free travel schemes?

Mr. White referred to difficulties with the arbitration system for land acquisition. His comments were welcome and worthwhile and are worth repeating. I was aware of the 9% contingency aspect but I was unaware of the other issue he raised, namely, potential developments for which permission was not obtained and which are immediately factored into settlements. I ask him to repeat that. Has he considered a submission on these matters to the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution, which is considering these matters?

I thank members for their comments on this new organisation, which are much appreciated. I call the roundabout mentioned the Mad Cow roundabout as opposed to the white elephant roundabout. I will ask staff members to deal with some of the issues raised but the position is that the Minister for Transport, Deputy Brennan, was there in the last week and as far as we are concerned we await his decision. We are one player but I will ask another member of the delegation to deal with the issues raised.

Mr. Michael Sheedy

Is the Senator referring to the Red Cow roundabout?

Mr. Sheedy

To go back to the point raised by Deputy Shortall, there were detailed discussions and negotiations in 1998-99 with all the agencies involved. Concerns were expressed by various people. A group got together which included the Dublin Transportation Office, South Dublin County Council, the Light Rail Project Office of CIE and the NRA. Various potential solutions were examined in great detail. A meeting was organised in the DTO and this proposal was accepted by all parties. One of the compromises the Light Rail Project Office made at the time was that we would not be given priority at the traffic signals.

I will explain how the system works and take members through the traffic phases. A tram coming from town will go out the Naas Road in the central medium, where there is no interference with traffic. The tracks go into the depot site, where there is also the park 'n' ride. We have built a new independent bridge over the M50, which is dedicated to light rail use. A tram approaching the roundabout from the city centre will come up to the roundabout and, depending on the situation at this particular point, the rotary traffic on the roundabout has priority. In other words, if it has a green phase with the conventional traffic signals, the tram is allowed to cross the outward lanes of the Naas Road. If this phase of traffic is moving with a green light the movement on to the roundabout from the Naas Road is blocked. When that sequence in the phasing of the traffic signals comes around, the light rail vehicle moves across. It waits until the normal point in the sequence where we get that phase. We get no priority. It then moves on and there is sufficient length to stand a tram, presuming it is blocked from crossing the ramp onto the motorway. There is sufficient space for it to stand clear of all traffic lanes so there is no interruption to conventional road traffic when the tram is waiting.

The tram will get the signal to cross this on-ramp. While the tram is making that move across the on-ramp we have, with a view to minimising the impact on traffic generally, built a freeflow slip lane for conventional traffic. Therefore, as a consequence of the Luas works, cars coming out of town can go left onto the M50 southbound without any interference. Having crossed the slip lane, the tram will go across the new bridge and if the traffic is slowing on the off-ramp from the M50 onto the roundabout, the tram will be held at this point. The current cycle time at the Red Cow is approximately 70 seconds. Of that 70 seconds, traffic coming from the off-ramp onto the roundabout gets about seven seconds. One second in ten is given to traffic. We are saying that 90% of the time there will be absolutely no conflict crossing the ramp. The same applies vice versa.

There is a vote in the Dáil. Do members wish to reconvene because we will be having a second meeting?

We will have a second meeting and Mr. White and Mr. Allen will be aware of the information we will be seeking. Most questions have been asked so it will be just a case of teasing out the information.

I wish to ask one question because Deputy Power was getting to the nub of things. If we use a figure of approximately €4 billion, what is the deal for the Government? At what point do they start making the payments and what is the likely schedule of the payments?

Other members asked questions to which they want answers. We will get into these detailed questions at the next meeting. I thank the delegation for attending and look forward to seeing them at future meetings.

The joint committee adjourned at 11.45 a.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 29 May 2003.
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