JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 26 Apr 2006

Road Safety: Presentation.

Chairman

We are joined by Mr. Des Cummins of the Driving Instructor Register of Ireland Limited and Mr. Tony Walsh of the Irish Residential Driving School. We will call on them to address the committee in that order.

I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the Houses, or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

An opening statement from the delegation has been circulated and Mr. Cummins will now make a presentation, followed by Mr. Walsh.

Mr. Des Cummins

I have sent a submission to the committee and I thank it for affording me this opportunity to attend a discussion on road safety and to answer any questions it may wish to put to me.

The submission seeks to describe the current situation within road safety in Ireland. Its main focus is on the lack of a coherent policy at this time. There is, for example, a lack of professional driver training, which should be undertaken by qualified and monitored driving instructors imparting a structured teaching syllabus. While I acknowledge and welcome the progress being made with the establishment of the RSA, the extension of penalty points, the introduction of random breath testing, the fixed charge payment system and the establishment of a dedicated traffic corps with additional resources, without driver training they will not and cannot work.

The National Roads Authority tells us that 92% of all fatalities are related to driver behaviour, further demonstrating that driver training is a serious omission from road safety policy in Ireland. The National Safety Council states that driver education is part of its remit but it does not involve itself in driver training other than to seek to influence driver behaviour and attitudes to road safety through media advertising, publicity initiatives, partnership and distributing leaflets in second and third level education centres. While important and successful, this further highlights the need for a coherent policy on road safety for all State, public and voluntary bodies so they can play an active part in road safety, including in driver training. Investment in road safety must include driver training and must be seen to be worthwhile. The Bacon report clearly demonstrates that every €1 invested in road safety would result in an €8 return.

In 2005, 400 people died in road collisions, an increase of 26, or 6.7%, on the 374 people who lost their lives in 2004. When compared with the figures for 2003, this is a worrying upward movement in road fatalities and is a cause for concern. Even since the printing of our submission document on 6 April, approximately 30 further people lost their lives. The Government's decision to establish a public sector body through the Road Safety Authority to take responsibility for road safety issues is to be welcomed.

I met Mr. Noel Brett and discussed with him aspects of road safety. His in-depth knowledge of what needs to be done ensures that one is not left unimpressed and that one is confident for the future. I also understand that a public consultation paper, which takes account of the RSA findings, will shortly be published. We look forward to working with the authority into the future. Road safety cannot belong to one authority, it must belong to all. It is hoped, therefore, that the RSA will bring together key elements of road safety, including driver training.

We believe that the register has contributed to road safety in Ireland during the past ten years. It has represented value for money, raised the national tuition standards of driving instructors and, by extension, the standard of learner drivers in Ireland, albeit on a voluntary basis. It has already examined, monitored and registered two thirds of the driving tuition fraternity to a European equivalent standard examination process. Progress must be built upon and there should not be a restatement of what has already been achieved.

The Driving Instructor Register of Ireland was requested to set up, compile and operate, for a reasonable period, a live register of instructors for the Department. It invested more than €6 million in the examination and monitoring of driving instructors and brought European standards to Ireland. It raised the highest proportion of funding, 78%, through its own operations, with the balance of 22% being made up from Government subvention funding. Other European countries have accepted our standards in so far as certificate exchanges have taken place with Belgium, Portugal, the United Kingdom and similar processes are under way in Spain and New Zealand.

Registered driving instructors, RDIs, must now be assured that the standards they have benchmarked will be accepted by the Road Safety Authority and should not be expected to undergo the same examinations again. It should also be noted that the Driving Instructor Register of Ireland has operated as a not-for-profit company for driving instructors for the past 15 years. The necessary experience required within the examination, monitoring and administration of driving instructors exists in the form of an ISO accredited register, which simply requests that the RSA should take control of the national database of registered instructors and continue the process it commenced. Without a register of improved driving instructors, nothing can possibly commence within driver training.

Mr. Tony Walsh

I thank the committee for this opportunity to address it. The development of a traffic safety policy involves a wide range of participants representing a diverse group of interests. As identified in the submission forwarded to the committee, these are the media, the Government, legislative bodies, users, citizens, the industry, the police, NGO-special interest groups and the professionals.

I wish to focus on the professionals and, in that context, driving instructors. For the latter to be recognised as road safety professionals, the industry in Ireland must look at best practice in other countries throughout Europe. Minimum European requirements for driving instructor training, MERIT, is an EU research project on standards for driving instructors co-financed by the European Commission. The MERIT recommendations are based on a long-term vision paper and are designed to highlight best practice and provide the European Commission with a basis for a legislative proposal for an EU directive.

One of the objectives of the MERIT project was to identify and analyse current standards for driving instructors throughout Europe. This was achieved via electronic questionnaires sent to relevant government agencies or ministries and to the main national driving school associations in March 2004. Representatives of 27 European countries replied. The principal conclusions, as expected, exposed significant differences between countries in terms of the volume, content and requirements for training, testing and ongoing quality in the profession. The most striking divergences come under the following headings: conditions for access to the profession; initial training; testing; ongoing training; and quality control. The overall conclusion of the survey was that most countries focus almost exclusively on competency relating only to the lower levels of the goals for driver education, GDE, matrix. In this regard, the MERIT recommendations for standards relating to GDE matrix as a whole are considered useful and important for improving the quality of driver education and training.

The submission, on page 4, provides the GDE matrix goals for driver education. As stated, the first two are the only ones addressed in most parts of Europe. The MERIT recommendations include five areas which need to be addressed if minimum requirements are to be established in Ireland, namely, general competencies required by a driving instructor, the conditions of entry to the profession, initial qualifications, quality assurance and ongoing training and, the content requirements for training and testing.

At present, Ireland has in place qualifications and budgets which fulfil many of the MERIT recommendations. The first is the FÁS-NUI certificate in training and continuing education. This course goes a long way towards meeting the MERIT recommendations and has been developed to ensure trainers have the essential competency necessary to meet the training challenges with which they are faced in today's changing world. It provides formal qualifications for those involved in training and development and encourages those in training roles to update themselves in new developments in training methodology and delivery systems.

Under the FÁS competency development programme, up to 70% funding may be made available to a participant undergoing the NUI certificate in training and continuing education. The course material is delivered in four units and four workshop days over four months. It covers the essential basic skills and knowledge required by today's trainer, namely, assessing training and development needs, designing a training programme, delivering training and supporting the learner. On successful completion of the course, participants are approved FÁS trainers. That goes a long way towards meeting the EU MERIT recommendations.

Any company operating in the driver training industry in Ireland may submit a training course to FÁS for approval under the competency development programme. The course must meet the FÁS criteria and trainers delivering the course must be approved FÁS trainers, namely, they must hold an NUI certificate in training. Again, up to 70% funding may be made available to participants who attend a driving instructors training course approved by FÁS. Ireland already has in place the budgets and training courses required to meet the EU MERIT recommendations.

Driving instructors are the key persons in transmitting road safety strategies and attitudes to drivers. Not all aspects of safe driving can be assessed in the driving test. An efficient transmission of the key messages for safe driving is, therefore, essential. The better qualified driving instructors are, the more they can influence the later driving behaviour of their learner drivers. More importantly, the driving instructor training and testing curriculum must correspond to the demands of road safety. Ireland has in place the required systems and budgets to address the proposed EU MERIT recommendations. The driver training industry in Ireland, along with the driver testing service, needs to examine what is already available and must seek to place the industry on a solid foundation which will allow it to continually implement improvements that are in line with proposed EU directives.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Walsh for his presentation. I have one or two questions to ask before handing over to members. How many of the members of Mr. Walsh's organisation run road safety tuition courses for non-nationals? I ask because approximately 25% of road deaths since the start of the year involved non-national drivers. Is there a course available to people from eastern Europe who possess driving licences and who want to drive here? We must remember that, when they come here, they are obliged to drive on the opposite side of the road. That applies also to German and French people who come here during the tourist season. A number of mainland Europeans have been involved in very serious crashes due mainly to their lack of knowledge in terms of driving on the left-hand side of the road. Do any of the members of Mr. Walsh's organisation provide that type of course?

Mr. Walsh

From my company's perspective, that has not been requested. None of us intending to drive to Germany or across Europe would seek to undergo a training course with an organisation before we undertook the journey. I am sure many of us who have driven in Europe did not think about taking a driving course before we drove on the opposite side of the road. If there was a market for such courses, we would respond to it but, as yet, that market has not been identified. I take the Chairman's point. It is something that——

Chairman

I raise the issue because I am not just talking about cars. The number of commercial vehicles now being driven by non-nationals has risen enormously in the past 12 months in particular and they experience major problems with regard to road signage and language. They are totally dependent on road signage but they have language problems. We have the same problem driving in mainland Europe but this is an area in which Mr. Walsh's organisation should perhaps become involved, even if it were to do so by offering a one-day course. One cannot go onto a building site in this country without having a safe pass. Such passes are issued in people's native languages. As a contribution towards trying to do something about this problem, I ask Mr. Walsh's organisation to provide a one-day course that would be of benefit to these people. I agree with him that those of us who drive in mainland Europe find it very difficult and the level of concentration required is greater vis-à-vis that required at home. Something must be done in respect of this problem. Perhaps it could be a mandatory requirement that before people are allowed to drive here long term, they must undergo some sort of tuition course.

Deputy Shortall

Whose job is it to do that? It is the Government's job to ensure that is done.

Chairman

Nobody is disputing that.

Mr. Cummins

On the system to which the Chairman refers, for people from countries with which we do not have a licence exchange we operate a system where they can drive for a period but they must sit a test. There is a case for a recommendation to be made to the Road Safety Authority to introduce this but I imagine it would be done by way of a European directive rather than in the form of an Irish regulation. We should have uniformity within the licensing and signage systems. If one drives through two or three countries in Europe, one is faced with four or five different road signage systems. Perhaps the Joint Committee on Transport could recommend to the Government that it introduce uniformity within Europe in that regard.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Are those currently on the register to which Mr. Cummins referred undergoing the FÁS course that is available or is that a requirement to register as a driving instructor?

Mr. Walsh

I do not have any figures for that. Perhaps Mr. Cummins has——

Deputy O. Mitchell

It is not mandatory.

Mr. Walsh

It is not mandatory. My argument is that the national training authority would have a European perspective. In terms of the EU directive, if we could bring this under one umbrella where the course is already run by FÁS it would meet many of the recommendations MERIT is proposing.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I suppose that is a matter for Mr. Noel Brett and the new Road Safety Authority.

Mr. Cummins

The Driving Instructor Register of Ireland represented Ireland at the MERIT project in Brussels and many of our submissions are contained in the document to which Mr. Walsh referred. It is a question of seeking uniformity within the driver training aspect. If that can be passed through, it will be formulated within the RSA.

Deputy O. Mitchell

We all recognise that training of drivers and instructors represents a huge gap in the road safety issue and one that has not received much attention. Members of the public are not interested in driver training because they are not obliged to pass a test. There are 400,000 people on provisional licences and it does not matter to them. Most of them would be happy to spend the rest of their lives on provisional licences. Until it becomes a requirement to pass a test at some point, and I hope the Road Safety Authority will achieve that, we will not get the necessary interest in driver training, which is essential and which is mandatory in most other countries.

I continually discuss with colleagues the need for training, graduated licences, testing, retesting and ongoing training. I have also spoken to Mr. Noel Brett, the head of the Road Safety Authority, and he is conscious of the need to start taking action in this area. It is critical that when people first sit behind the wheel of a car, they get professional training and understand the responsibility they are assuming.

With regard to the register of driving instructors, a good deal of money and much work has been invested in setting up a voluntary register. However, it is the responsibility of the Road Safety Authority to decide whether the standard that has been set, the training, etc., are adequate. That is not something that we, as a committee, should judge at this point. We have established this authority to do that and I believe it will do it.

On the Chairman's point about non-nationals, I return to the enforcement area. Irish drivers are doing professional jobs — driving school buses and HGVs — on provisional licences. It ill behoves us to ask non-nationals to undergo special driving courses when we cannot get our own people to do so. I am not suggesting that there is not an urgent need to get the message across to non-nationals about the basic rules of the road in Ireland and the standards that are required. However, we must also get this message across to our people.

Mr. Cummins

On the point about getting the message across, 1995 was the last time we seriously updated the Rules of the Road. If I am not mistaken, that document still carries the photograph of the then Minister for the Environment, Deputy Brendan Howlin. That is a serious omission. With regard to the 35 penalty points, for example, it is difficult for anybody to get or retain information on those and the register would suggest that this be continually updated and regarded as urgent.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I agree, as I am sure does everyone present.

Mr. Walsh

On the point about driving instructors being qualified to train and examining future EU directives, we must remember that driving instructors train for reward. If one trains for reward, the first requirement is that one should be a qualified trainer and the body in control of that area here is the national training authority, namely, FÁS. We now have an opportunity to put the industry on a solid foundation. All the requirements are in place to do so. At present, the industry is on quicksand, so to speak, and it is very difficult to build on it. We need to place it on a solid foundation and build and improve on what we have from that point. It is quite difficult to do so at present. The national training authority has an input into the European perspective and we should all move towards that because it is from there that the directives are emanating.

Deputy O. Mitchell

Does Mr. Walsh have any idea when this directive is due?

Mr. Walsh

It will probably be five or six years before this directive is introduced. The final report on the MERIT project was produced in June 2005

Mr. Cummins

It is unlikely that European agreement will be secured within ten years. The standards have been set and it is something to which we can aspire. It is an objective towards which the RSA can work.

Deputy O. Mitchell

We can carry out measures without waiting for Europe.

Mr. Walsh

Exactly.

Mr. Cummins

It is certainly something towards which we could work.

Deputy Shortall

I welcome Mr. Walsh and Mr. Cummins to the meeting. It is a matter of general concern that there is no mandatory registration of driving instructors, a state of affairs which would be news to many people, especially parents who want their sons and daughters to learn to drive. Does Mr. Cummins agree that if a person goes to a local driving school, he or she expects that there will be some mandatory registration system? Many people would be surprised to learn that anyone can set up as a driving instructor. This is an extraordinary state of affairs because we entrust young people to the care of driving instructors. These young people may be 17 years of age and alone in a car with a driving instructor without any guarantee that the instructor is of good character or has been trained to an appropriate driving standard. In addition, that instructor is not required to be registered. The fact that anyone with any background can set up as a driving instructor is intolerable.

The Government has been remiss in this regard by failing to introduce compulsory registration of driving instructors. There appears to be little or no regulation in this area at a time when there is regulation of every other industry. I note Mr. Cummins's comments about how two thirds of driving instructors are registered with the Driving Instructors Register of Ireland. Why have we not moved to a situation where anyone who wishes to set up as a driving instructor must be registered?

According to Mr. Cummins, the register is voluntary and funding for it is provided on a voluntary basis. What have been the views of the Ministers of the day since the establishment of the register? Was it intended that once the register was fully established, it would be taken in charge by some State agency? In his submission, Mr. Cummins states that the intention was that the register would be passed back to the Department. When was this due to happen and why has it not happened to date?

Mr. Cummins

The entire process commenced in 1979. In 1989 or thereabouts, we formed associations and lobbied successive Governments to set up a register. In 1991, we were instructed by the coalition Government of the time to put together a legal entity which would operate for three years after which it would, politically speaking, be sympathetically reviewed. The process commenced in 2000 with the formation of the Department's working group, which concluded in 2002 and largely accepted in principle the standards of the Driving Instructors Register of Ireland, which would then be passed into the RSA.

The process essentially tried to change the mindset of driving instructors. The fact that two thirds of instructors are registered leads us to believe that the remaining one third of driving instructors are simply waiting for ministerial direction to do this. Having set the standards and informed instructors about the standards to which they must aspire, we have sent out many driving instructors who would otherwise have simply put a sign on and fitted dual controls in their cars. We believe we have made progress.

Deputy Shortall

Is Mr. Cummins satisfied that the standard applied by the current register is adequate and is it generally accepted in the Department that this standard is adequate? What has been the response from the RSA to date in respect of the standard applied by the register?

Mr. Cummins

I echo Mr. Walsh's earlier comments that we have a tendency to stand on quicksand in our dealings with the Department. We have gone through many changes between the Driver Testing and Standards Authority and the RSA and plans to build a register using a public private partnership. Essentially, we have an exchange of certificates with the UK, Belgium and Portugal. We are working with Spain and New Zealand at the moment for the exchange and recognition of certificates.

We have put ourselves in front of the European Commission for the past five and a half years. The Commission has assessed our process and recommended reading and study material. It has accepted all that we have done as a European standard examination, although I am cautious in my use of the term "standard" because there is no European standard examination. Mr. Walsh might have dealt with this issue earlier. It might be more accurate to talk about a European-style examination.

We have a three-part examination and continual and ongoing monitoring through a check testing system where substandard instructors are weeded out. If a substandard lesson is given to a member of the public, he or she will be called back within six months to four years. Instructors are graded on the lessons they give to the public. The system is a mirror image of that which pertains in the UK under the ADI system.

Deputy Shortall

What is the view of Mr. Noel Brett, the head of the RSA?

Mr. Cummins

I understand that Mr. Brett probably cannot make any definitive decisions at the moment but based on a newspaper article and my conversations with him, it appears that the RSA would look upon it favourably. However, much more clarity is needed for the 1,300 driving instructors who are already registered. They need to be sure that they are not wasting their time or money. The examination for Ireland has been benchmarked and it would be futile to request those registered to sit the examination again. We have a check testing system to which we are subject. We would have no problems with an immediate check test.

Deputy Shortall

My final question concerns the 700 instructors who are not registered. Does Mr. Cummins believe the Government should take immediate action to make registration compulsory?

Mr. Cummins

The Government has been instrumental in allowing these instructors to sit back and not join the register. We have asked for some form of positive statements through the Department and the Minister but the statements issued are practically aloof from the training industry. The National Safety Council claims it is involved in education but this is not true because it does not train new drivers. The council educates all drivers but it does not train new drivers.

The training of new drivers is basically left to the commercial sector, encompassing individual driving instructors who have become test tippers simply because of the anomalies surrounding the provisional licence. People wait so long for driving tests that from the time they learn to drive to the time they sit their test, they will come back to a driving instructor for possibly one or two lessons. At that stage, a driving instructor can only provide test tips. Essentially, the training environment has been removed from equation, which is a serious criticism directed at successive Governments by the training industry.

Deputy Shortall

Has the Department become involved in the register?

Mr. Cummins

It has co-funded the register to the tune of €30,000 per year since 1996. I understand the Department has contributed approximately 22% to the register's funds. We provide audited bi-annual figures to the Department and Minister every year.

Deputy Glennon

I welcome Mr. Walsh and Mr. Cummins to the meeting, which has been productive. One question that frequently arises in respect of groups appearing before the committee relates to how representative they are with regards to the particular sector they seek to represent. Could Mr. Cummins tell us how many members his organisation has? I note that it is a limited company. Who are its shareholders? Could he give me some background information about the organisation? From our guests' presentation, in the order of €1.25 million of State funding has been given to the organisation over the years. From where did the own-funding of €5 million come? Did it come by way of standard membership fees or do different members pay on different terms? What is the organisation's modus operandi in terms of membership?

Mr. Cummins

We were requested to set up a private legal entity. In that process we consulted the then Department of the Environment which had an input in the establishment of the register. Who teaches the teachers was always a concern. We were instructed to get a UK examination consultant to set up and oversee the process and report back to the Department annually, which has happened in each successive year of our operation. The company was set up as a legal entity and has four unpaid directors, whose liability to the company is €1.27. It is a not-for-profit organisation and has 12 board members and a consultant who reports to the board. Annual and financial reports are given to the Department each year.

We have received 22% of our financing from the State and generated 78% ourselves, which comprises the three-part examination of €150 per section, an annual registration of €191 and an ongoing check testing system of €100 through which a new driving instructor will be examined within 12 months. This structure is operated on a national basis. For every test centre from which the Department operates, we operate within its vicinity. We go to the registered driving instructor's area while he or she is giving a lesson to a pupil, review the process from the back of the car for 45 minutes and debrief the driving instructor for a further 30 minutes.

Deputy Glennon

I thank Mr. Cummins. The members are individual driving instructors rather than schools, for example.

Mr. Cummins

Correct.

Deputy Glennon

It is a matter for the schools whether to employ a registered instructor.

Mr. Cummins

Yes.

Deputy Glennon

I am slightly confused. Mr. Cummins said there are four directors but 12 board members.

Mr. Cummins

There are board members and board company directors.

Deputy Glennon

How are the directors elected, appointed or chosen?

Mr. Cummins

They are elected annually at an annual general meeting.

Deputy Glennon

By the members of the company.

Mr. Cummins

No, by the board. It works through the two associations——

Deputy Glennon

The board elects the board.

Mr. Cummins

Owing to the make-up and the request to present and formulate ourselves in a certain way, the two main associations — the Motor Schools Association of Ireland and the Irish Driving Instructors Association — were requested to work together. The board membership is derived from the associations.

Deputy Glennon

Two of each.

Mr. Cummins

Yes.

Chairman

An examination is carried out before the registration of people is allowed and another one is carried out a year afterwards. Are these the only examinations? Is there a system of ongoing examinations every three or five years?

Mr. Cummins

It is an ongoing process. For example, when one completes the three parts, one becomes qualified. To qualify, one must register. Having done so, a person will be examined within 12 months. On the basis of that examination process of the lesson given, a person will be seen within one, two, three or four years.

Chairman

Is it one, two, three or four years?

Mr. Cummins

It depends on the type of lesson, what learning took place, whether there was a change in attitude or behaviour, what could, should or must have been said, whether the learner got his or her money's worth, for want of better words, and whether proper advice and guidance was undertaken. If not, the person would be examined in six months. If the driving lesson was excellent and full of information, the driving instructor may not be examined again for four years, which is the maximum period for a driving instructor.

Chairman

The instructor could face a maximum of four years.

Mr. Cummins

Yes.

Chairman

Before the company registers anyone, does it seek Garda clearance?

Mr. Cummins

That is an interesting question.

Chairman

Is the company entitled to seek Garda clearance?

Mr. Cummins

I have continually asked the Garda Síochána for Garda clearance because it is certainly one of our concerns that an unscrupulous person could get on the register, about which we can do little. The Garda Síochána has refused us at least twice in the past ten years.

Chairman

On that point, the Garda Commissioner will be before the committee in the not too distant future. Perhaps Mr. Cummins would write a note to the clerk to the committee in order that we may raise the matter with the Commissioner. Who our guests allow on the road is an important issue.

Deputy Shortall

That is in the case of the 1,300 people who are registered. No one has control over another 700 who have not registered.

Chairman

I agree.

Mr. Walsh

On the conditions of entry to the profession, one of the EU MERIT recommendations is to undertake a background check on prior criminal and-or traffic offences to ensure that the applicant is a fit and proper person. The MERIT recommendations cover practically everything the committee has discussed in this respect. As stated previously, we do not need to wait for an EU directive to put this measure in place.

Chairman

There is enough advice and consultancy.

Mr. Walsh

It is all in place. We have budgets and training in place that will meet a large number of the recommendations.

Senator Dooley

I also welcome the two contributors. Mr. Walsh's presentation in particular was helpful as it gave the committee a sense of where this issue is going. The only concern in respect of the MERIT project is the length of time it might take. To this end, will Mr. Cummins indicate what effort his company has been making with the Road Safety Authority to bring about an interim project in Ireland that recognises where Europe is ultimately going? Could Ireland move more quickly?

The Driving Instructors Register of Ireland is, in essence, a self-regulation of the industry, which is obviously better than no regulation. From Mr. Cummins's comments, it is clear that the register does not go far enough and does not have the necessary powers. Is the company campaigning to put the register or some entity on a statutory footing? If so, does Mr. Cummins have any proposals? Has the company involved itself with the road safety authority? Does Mr. Cummins believe the register will be subsumed by the Road Safety Authority through a statutory measure, moving from self-regulation to statutory regulation?

Mr. Cummins

They are valid questions. Our brief in 1991 was to set up and pass back. That brief has not changed. It is not our intention to continue one more day than is necessary. We were made to have a plan B. After the Department suggested it would pursue a public private partnership, franchise or contract given by it, along came the DTSA and the RSA. We have been on shifting sands for a long time and always needed to have plan A and plan B. I understand from Mr. Noel Brett that the RSA will take over full responsibility for the driving instructor register. It would be our contention that the DIR will dissolve when the database is passed over. We will be available to give advice or guidance but would believe our job was done and would move away from the issue. This has been our brief. We are not a commercial entity and will seek a nice, clear exit strategy in passing over to the RSA.

Deputy Healy

Most issues have been covered. The witnesses deal with individual driving instructors. Is there any regulation of driving schools and the employment of instructors within those schools?

Mr. Cummins

In 1979, the Motor Schools Association of Ireland set itself up. Fundamentally, it had one major flaw in that it registered driving schools, and while there may be 600 or 700 driving schools, there could be more than 2,000 driving instructors working in them. Essentially one registers the driving school and, consequently, anyone who works for a school is deemed to be registered. However, as the Chairman adequately pointed out, we register the driving instructor and not the driving school.

At present, we find that the larger driving schools, with perhaps five or more driving instructors, will not register. This is because their staff want them to pay for registration and the companies are not prepared to do so. However, this might change on foot of ministerial direction on a process and we could be ready to pass over a full database to the Road Safety Authority in order that it could commence immediately. If, for example, it were suggested that we could implement a minimum number of driving lessons for all new drivers, one would require approved instructors. Members should bear in mind that I do not speak from a commercial perspective in this respect. This process is already two thirds complete and it took ten years to reach this point. The Road Safety Authority may build upon what has already been achieved and take ownership of the database. Essentially that is our position.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Cummins and Mr. Walsh for their forthright presentation to the committee. They have provided background information on the problems they see in the entire driver instructor and driver testing industry. Clearly, there is much to be gained in opting for the MERIT system and in introducing proper mandatory controls on who can act as an instructor and how driving schools are run. The joint committee will adjourn for a few minutes to allow the witnesses to withdraw.

Sitting suspended at 12.03 p.m. and resumed at 12.05 p.m.

Chairman

I welcome the representatives of the Irish Drivers Association, namely, Mr. JohnLernihan, chairman, Mr. David Russell, secretary, and Mr. Pat Donovan, public relations officer. I draw the witnesses' attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege, this same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. I remind members of the parliamentary practice that members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Information supplied by the association has been circulated. I have a problem regarding the information submitted in that while a request was made to discuss the national car test, the circulated document also mentions penalty points and road conditions. The joint committee did not agree to this. At the request of Deputy Connaughton, it agreed that the NCT would be the only topic of discussion. Hence, I will only permit the raising of questions which pertain to the NCT. Mr. Lernihan will now brief the joint committee.

Deputy: Glennon

On a point of information, before the delegation briefs the joint committee, can members have some specific information on the background of the association, its membership figures, its general modus operandi and the extent to which it is representative of the 2.25 million drivers in Ireland?

Mr. John Lernihan

The association was set up approximately three years ago. The citizens of the State felt that they were getting a raw deal as far as the NCT was concerned. Hence, the association was set up——

Deputy Glennon

How many members? That is a simple question.

Mr. Lernihan

We have more than 8,000 members and the numbers are growing weekly.

Deputy Glennon

How does one become a member? I am a driver and I was unaware of the association's existence.

Mr. Lernihan

We would be delighted to send an application form to the Deputy.

Deputy Glennon

Apart from meeting its representatives, how does one join?

Mr. Lernihan

If one wishes, one can examine the website, www.irishdrivers.org, to find information.

Deputy Glennon

Is there an annual subscription?

Mr. Lernihan

There is an annual subscription of €5 to pay for printing and so forth. It is a non-profit making organisation.

Deputy Glennon

How many annual general meetings have been held in the association's three year existence?

Mr. Lernihan

We have held approximately six meetings.

Chairman

Has it held six annual general meetings?

Mr. Lernihan

No, we have held three annual general meetings. However, we have held approximately six meetings throughout the country.

Chairman

The driver instructors who attended the committee before the appearance of this delegation are covered by means of a limited company. How is the association covered in terms of personal liability for any accusations that the witnesses might make against an individual?

Mr. Lernihan

We did not think that anyone would make any accusations against us.

Chairman

No, I refer to accusations that the association's representatives might make.

Mr. Lernihan

No, we have no cover.

Chairman

Very well.

Deputy Shortall

Where do the association's members come from?

Mr. Lernihan

Our members come from throughout the country.

Chairman

How many members does it have in each county?

Mr. Lernihan

I cannot give an exact figure.

Chairman

For instance, can Mr. Lernihan provide a figure for membership in County Galway?

Mr. Lernihan

I cannot, as I do not have the figures to hand. However, I can provide a rough idea. In County Donegal, which is our strongest county, there are approximately 1,400 members. We also have sizeable membership levels in counties Limerick, Cork, Kerry and Clare as well as individual members throughout the country. However, it is growing——

Chairman

For the information of the committee, can the association forward a list of its membership to the clerk to the committee for further reference?

We have a problem in that the representatives of the Irish Drivers Association have appeared before the committee, at the request of Deputy Connaughton, to deal with the NCT issue. As all members are aware, we must be very careful in this regard. An accusation made against the national car testing organisation could have very serious consequences. I refer to the possibility of an accusation being made against individuals in various testing stations or in such a way that someone was identifiable and had their good character taken away. Hence, we must be very careful in this respect.

Mr. Pat Donovan

To clarify, there appears to be a misunderstanding on the agenda. I am from Newcastle West and am chairman of the NCT action group as well as being the public relations officer for the Irish Drivers Association. The Chair has limited us to discussing the NCT today although it was not my understanding that we would be so limited. That is literally a closed shop.

In Newcastle West and in Limerick, more than 700 people marched in protest against the NCT 18 months ago. I will not say anything else in respect of the NCT. Last May, meetings were held on the so-called mid-term review of the NCT. They were held in Kilkenny, Macroom and other locations. Following pressure from the Irish Farmers Journal a meeting was arranged outside the deadline date. It was an after thought and took place in Limerick city. More than 80 people attended the NCT process meeting, even though the numbers did not exceed ten at all the other venues. While the meeting lasted from 6.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. in the other locations, it lasted until 11 p.m. in Limerick.

We were told at the meeting in May that the officials would report back in October 2005. Some people put forward questions in February 2006 because the recommendations were to be implemented in January 2006. The mid-term review has gone from five years to seven years. Both the Irish Drivers Association and the NCT group in the Limerick area are disappointed that the franchise was given out as a monopoly for ten years, which we opposed. Despite the questions Deputy Mitchell and others asked in February, we are disappointed that this proposal has not been implemented. It is almost May and the mid-term review has been exceeded by two years, which is very disappointing. I am also disappointed that we are not being allowed to speak about other matters.

Chairman

That is exactly the position. Mr. Donovan asked to make submissions with regard to the NCT, which we agreed only on the recommendation of Deputy Connaughton, because we could not get details on how representative your group was — that is something we seek from each group that comes before the committee. I will now ask Mr. Russell to make his presentation.

Mr. Donovan

As the Chairman will be aware, the NCT is a closed state because all the recommendations were supposed to be made by last May.

Chairman

I take it that Mr. Russell is making the submission.

Mr. David Russell

I thank the chairman and members of the committee for giving us this opportunity to present the concerns of our members on various aspects.

Chairman

Has Mr. Russell got copies of the presentation which should have been distributed to members?

Mr. Russell

No. We are grateful and thank members of the committee in advance for hearing us. Some of the issues with which we would like to deal include the national car test, for which we enclose evidence of the performance of the test and the unwarranted treatment of Irish motorists, the failure of the mid-term review report, the refusal of Ministers to answer our letters and the incompatibility of the NCT with the objectives of EU Directive 96/96.

We have had thousands of complaints from people in connection with NCT, the attitude and behaviour of its staff, manifesting itself in rudeness, impoliteness, dismissiveness and inattention to citizens' concerns. Numerous instances of the failure of vehicles has been pointed out to us, which has nothing to do with safety or roadworthiness. This would not have occurred if the NCT company had not been given monopoly control of the process by the Department of Transport. Citizens have been deprived of the benefits of Article 2 of Directive 96/96 by being denied the choice of having their vehicles tested in conjunction with the service of their vehicles at their local garage. This denial has contributed to the monopoly NCT has been afforded and is currently enjoying. The effect of this is that the NCT appears to think it can do what it wishes and citizens have little or no redress.

This dictatorial-style attitude from NCT is not acceptable to Irish motorists or this association. This monopoly position is being used to continually fraud citizens to the point where it has gone beyond a joke. It is our opinion that this constitutes a criminal offence and potentially an infringement of Article 82 of the Treaty of Rome in regard to a monopoly position under competition law. It is not fair to think that citizens should be penalised for not having an NCT certificate when NCT itself appears to have criminal immunity from this behaviour. We believe that the effect of the behaviour is that the Government——

Chairman

I ask Mr. Russell to withdraw the statement that the NCT has criminal immunity.

Mr. Russell

I withdraw that statement from the committee and apologise.

Chairman

From the statement, not from the committee.

Mr. Russell

The effect of this behaviour is that the Government, via the Department of Transport, has indicated to SGS, a foreign company brought in by PricewaterhouseCoopers, to come in and effectively rip off Irish citizens. The Government has a duty to protect its Irish citizens from any type of abuse, potentially or actually, being inflicted on them. We observe that, notwithstanding the massive complaints from citizens directly and through this association, and documentary evidence through the media, radio programmes etc., the Government and the Department of Transport has stood idly by and done nothing to alleviate the abuse being inflicted on Irish citizens.

PricewaterhouseCoopers was also contracted to set up the mid-term review when it was directly involved in the setting up of NCT, which involves a conflict of interest. The continual high failure rate is attributable to such irrelevant and minor requirements as part of approximately a 400 items check criteria, while EU Directive 96/96 requires only two items to be tested, namely, brakes and emissions relating to safety and the environment, respectively. Notwithstanding that Article 5 allows member states to increase the number of items to be tested, where did the 398 other items come from? One would expect these items to be directly related to safety and the environment and not to issues unconnected with these matters. The directive refers to tests being inexpensive. By contrast, the NCT has not made the test cost €49, but €49 plus €27.50 for a retest. They appear to be deliberately failing citizens' vehicles for one purpose only, namely, to maximise profits. This is being imposed on already hard-pressed, over-burdened and over-taxed citizens in regard to motoring and maintenance costs.

Complaints have been made by our members that there is a two-year duration from the date of the certificate and when people get their test. They find that the validity of the certificate lasts just six months or 12 months because the NCT applied the test certificate from the date of registration of the car. Many citizens complain that the certificate was given for just one year and six months, which is an example of abuse and exploitation of citizens and the system. How can one back-date a certificate with retrospective effect? In regard to democracy, it appears that the wishes of citizens are not being implemented because they are not being listened to.

Our association is requesting the Oireachtas joint committee to consider not renewing the NCT contract and giving consumers a better choice by enabling major and local garages to become designated vehicle testing centres as per Article 2 of EU Directive 96/96. We also consider that without these measures the directive is implemented incorrectly and, if necessary, we may consider taking up the matter with the European Parliament.

Chairman

I thank Mr. Russell. Has the association raised with the Department cases of people having been short-changed by getting a certificate for 18 months?

Mr. Lernihan

We wrote to the Department on three or four occasions in one month during 2005, to which we have had no response.

Chairman

Did it relate to one specific case or to a number of cases?

Mr. Lernihan

We wrote in connection with many complaints made by our members.

Chairman

Were specific cases mentioned?

Mr. Lernihan

Yes. The chairman has a copy of that. We could fill a desk with complaints.

Chairman

There is no letter to the Department regarding someone having failed the NCT test.

Mr. Lernihan

We would like to have such an opportunity. We are all working people.

Chairman

I asked a specific question. Mr.Lernihan is taking up people's time. We do not want to bring the delegation here from Clare and Limerick without giving the members the opportunity to explain to us from where the specific problems are coming. I asked for a specific case because all of us as public representatives have had to deal with this issue. I have had to deal with cases where people expressed the view that they were short-changed by the NCT. When I raised these issues with the Department, it always pursued them and came back with a full explanation. Is Mr. Lernihan aware of specific cases which the joint committee could raise with the NCT?

Mr. Lernihan

The joint committee will already be aware of one case, details of which the Irish Drivers Association submitted to the Department of Transport several months ago.

Chairman

To which case is Mr. Lernihan referring?

Mr. Lernihan

It is referred to in document No. 8 in the list before the Chairman. We have yet to receive a response to our letter from the Department.

Chairman

The letter was submitted by a representative organisation rather than a public representative acting on behalf of an individual. How is the Department to know that the query the association raised in this case is valid? We all receive a certain amount of junk mail. If correspondence is not from an identifiable source, no action will be taken on the matter.

Mr. Lernihan

The details were submitted by the Irish Drivers Association.

Chairman

Did Ms Geaghan write to the Department?

Mr. Lernihan

We could fill a drawer with the correspondence we have submitted to the Department without receiving a reply.

Chairman

Did Ms Geaghan write directly to the Department without receiving a reply?

Mr. Lernihan

No, she had the matter addressed through the association.

Chairman

With all due respect, the Irish Drivers Association is a self-appointed body which does not, for example, have a charter of rights. The Driving Instructor Register of Ireland Limited, whose members appeared prior to the delegation, has proper controls in place governing its operation. While I accept that the Irish Drivers Association writes to the Department in good faith, it is not a registered group but a group of members with a website. This is the reason it runs into difficulty and probably the reason the Department does not respond to its correspondence.

Deputy Healy

Mr. Lernihan has indicated that a letter of complaint, including a name and address, was sent to the Department. Surely a reply should be issued either to the association or the individual in question.

Chairman

I agree the individual concerned should have received a reply.

Mr. Donovan

This discussion has so far been limited to the national car test company. As I indicated, PricewaterhouseCoopers appointed the NCT company in the first instance and carried out the mid-term review of the NCT last May. It was supposed to report last October and its findings were to be implemented last January. The latter date has been moved back to May this year. We were informed at the meetings held around the country as part of the mid-term review that a closing date would apply. In that case, why are we discussing the matter today if the report has already been submitted and some members of the joint committee have already received copies?

Deputy Shortall

Members have not received the report.

Mr. Donovan

They were supposed to receive it in October and it was due to be implemented in January. Nearly two years have elapsed.

Deputy Shortall

Members of the joint committee have been chasing the Minister to get the report, which is long overdue.

Mr. Donovan

Motorists are disappointed with the delay. If my work in a job was to be reviewed after five years, I would not expect the review to take place after seven years.

Deputy Shortall

Many of us share Mr. Donovan's disappointment.

Mr. Donovan

That is one of the reasons we are before the joint committee.

Deputy Connaughton

Mr. Donovan makes a reasonable proposition.

Chairman

If a review was due, it should have taken place by now. The joint committee will raise the matter with the Minister.

Mr. Donovan

The review is nearly two years behind schedule.

Deputy O. Mitchell

This is a difficult issue for all of us. Politicians receive complaints about all sorts of matters. Given that no one likes to fail a test, it is difficult to determine whether a complaint is genuine or is the result of a gripe. I agree, however, that the NCT is a monopoly in every sense. It is the only body which carries out an obligatory test, which means people must use the company's service. In such circumstances, it behoves the Government to ensure that people are, at minimum, treated with courtesy when they have a vehicle tested and have available to them a clear appeal mechanism when they dispute either the manner in which the test was carried out or its outcome.

Even if the recommendations of the mid-term review had been implemented on time, such reviews are not an adequate way to police a mandatory system. Immediate redress is available when problems arise with almost any other service. Driver testing should be subject to spot inspections by the Department to ensure standards of courtesy and honesty apply and all the other requirements imposed on public services are adhered to and delivered to the public.

Mr. Lernihan stated that the EU requires that cars are tested but it requires only that brakes and emissions are tested, whereas a series of other tests are also carried out as part of the NCT. Members learned on a recent trip to Australia that there is no difference in the number or severity of accidents between states which operate a non-mandatory test similar to the NCT and those which do not operate such a system. Arising from this, one wonders why we have established such a large system to carry out a procedure which may not be useful.

I hope this matter is investigated by the Road Safety Authority to ascertain whether, having invested a substantial amount of public money in establishing it, the system is contributing to road safety. If it is determined that a road safety test is necessary — perhaps it is not needed every year, particularly given that the age of cars has fallen dramatically in recent years. Alternatively, if the European Union requires an annual car test, perhaps it should be confined to testing brakes and emissions, with a full test carried out every second year. The entire system needs to be re-examined.

I spoke to representatives of the Automobile Association, which could be regarded as a competitor to the NCT company, at the time of the review. The AA withdrew its objections when an appeal system was recommended and I understand it was involved in operating that system.

Mr. Lernihan

The involvement of the AA was not justified because it did not have the equipment necessary to carry out further checks on vehicles. Instead it used the NCT equipment under which the cars initially failed. Clearly, if a wrong reading was given at the original test, the check will also produce a false reading. The AA wants to jump on the bandwagon and charges €46 for a retest.

Chairman

Mr. Lernihan stated cars are retested in the NCT centre in which they failed the initial test. I assume he is referring primarily to failures in the area of emissions.

Mr. Lernihan

It depends on the reason for the failure.

Chairman

We are all aware that the main reasons vehicles fail the NCT are excessive emissions and faulty brakes.

Mr. Lernihan

Yes.

Chairman

Vehicle owners tend to deal with visible problems before attending the NCT. Has a vehicle which failed the NCT and the AA retest at an NCT centre subsequently passed the test elsewhere?

Mr. Lernihan

Given the monopoly in this area, vehicles cannot be tested elsewhere.

Chairman

Did Mr. Lernihan take a vehicle to a garage to obtain an independent emissions test?

Mr. Lernihan

We have received many complaints.

Chairman

Was a vehicle taken for a private emissions test?

Mr. Lernihan

Yes, on several occasions.

Chairman

Did the vehicles pass the test?

Mr. Lernihan

Yes, there was nothing wrong with the emissions. The position is that under the NCT vehicles are failed for minor reasons which have nothing to do with safety.

Chairman

We are dealing specifically with the issue of emissions.

Mr. Lernihan

That is not the problem.

Chairman

Let us deal with the issue point by point. We all know that vehicles fail for a variety of reasons. Did any vehicle that failed an emissions test in an NCT centre subsequently and without modification pass the test?

Mr. Lernihan

Yes, as the document in our submission indicates——

Chairman

Mr. Lernihan is citing a newspaper report.

Mr. Lernihan

Yes, newspapers have no reason to find fault with the individuals in question if they are honest. The Chairman does not need to take my word.

Chairman

The danger is that we make accusations about vehicles that have failed the national car test twice while the necessary modification to enable them pass the emissions test may have been carried out before going for the test. I have had personal experience of this.

Mr. Lernihan

Yes.

Chairman

A member of my family had a vehicle that failed the emissions test. He had it tested privately and was told it failed because a small screw was not properly set. The vehicle would have failed the test again if the matter had not been properly dealt with. We are talking about issues that are within the credibility of the individual concerned. It is very hard for us to know whether these are real live issues.

Deputy O. Mitchell

The Chairman is absolutely right, it is very difficult. Notwithstanding that, and perhaps for that reason, we need to monitor testing.

Mr. Lernihan

We need a watchdog.

Deputy O. Mitchell

It must be independent and objective. These gentlemen, whether right or wrong in the individual cases, are making a legitimate complaint.

Deputy Connaughton

In actual fact they are making a bona fide case.

Chairman

Yes. All I want is to ensure that if we decide to pursue this matter further we know exactly where we are going, that we do not end up with somebody saying we have all been misinformed.

Deputy O. Mitchell

I have made the point.

Mr. Lernihan

Perhaps I could make a point——

Chairman

Sorry, I have called Deputy Shortall. Mr. Lernihan can then reply.

Deputy Shortall

I welcome the delegation. It is unfortunate that members did not have the submission prior to the meeting as a number of interesting and valid points have been raised. Many of us have been concerned about the national car test for some time. We had hoped some of our questions would have been answered in the mid-term review. We have been pursuing the Minister fairly vigorously in recent months to get our hands on the report. I share the delegation's concern that at this stage the report is still not available. I wonder what the delegation is finding from the complaints being received from members. I am a public representative in the Dublin area and I find that the number of complaints are few, other than the inconvenience of minor failures where a person has to get a small job done and take the vehicle back for retesting but does not have to pay. I hear some of those complaints, but I hear very few complaints about the overall test. I wonder if there are regional or county variations?

Mr. Lernihan

Yes.

Deputy Shortall

I wish to ask a couple of questions. Are the complaints always about the test being too rigorous? It has been suggested the test is not rigorous enough in some cases or that certain parts of it are not being carried out sufficiently rigorously to meet safety standards.That is a suggestion that has been made to me. Have complaints on those lines been received or is it always that the tests are too severe? On the issue of monitoring, I agree with the point made by Deputy Mitchell on the need for a watchdog. I wonder about the role the Automobile Association has played. Has Mr. Lernihan's association met the Automobile Association and discussed the issues being raised, given that it is the statutory body that has been given responsibility for monitoring? Does it perform that role adequately and has Mr. Lernihan been in communication with it?

Mr. Lernihan

We have not dealt with the AA on these issues. As the Deputy will appreciate——

Chairman

Excuse me, Mr. Lernihan, I asked earlier if you had any dealings with the AA in regard to having a car retested and you said you had.

Mr. Lernihan

That is not what I said.

Chairman

I asked you and you said the AA came in and tested a car that had already been tested.

Mr. Lernihan

This is normal procedure and we know of cases where people went to the AA.

Chairman

Mr. Lernihan told me that he had specific contact——

Mr. Lernihan

Not personally, sorry about that, Chairman. The Deputy asked if the tests were too severe.

Deputy Shortall

I also asked whether they are the only complaints received?

Mr. Lernihan

There is no politeness, people are arrogant. The staff at the national car test centre are arrogant because they are in a dominant position. If we do not like their attitude we can go nowhere else. We have no choice but to take the word of these people. For example, a gentleman one morning——

Deputy Shortall

I am sorry to interrupt Mr. Lernihan, but we all get complaints about every service in the country. The issue, as far as we are concerned, is whether there is a significant level of complaints and if they are in particular pockets. We are trying to get a handle on the extent of the issue if there is one? How many complaints has Mr. Lernihan received?

Mr. Lernihan

Thousands of complaints have been received from people. We get them everyday.

Deputy Shortall

It is all very well to say thousands of complaints have been received. Can Mr. Lernihan give the committee some idea of the main issues about which complaints have been received, the part of the country involved and the outcome following a complaint?

Mr. Lernihan

Most people have to travel on average 30 miles in County Clare to get a test. A day's work is lost when one goes to have one's car tested. If the vehicle fails the test due to a minor fault another day's work is lost in having to return to the centre for a retest. A gentleman one morning came to have his car tested and as he had some time to spare he did his shopping and put the two bags of shopping into the boot of his car. However, the vehicle failed the test because the testers could not check the spare wheel. The testers could not move the goods. These are silly things. That is what people are cribbing about. We are not cribbing about emissions——

Chairman

Excuse me on that issue. When one gets a notice for an NCT, one of the instructions is that there must be total access to the spare wheel and that one has to remove the hubcaps.

Mr. Lernihan

Why should we? If I leave my car into T. Shiels and Company in Ennis and ask it to service my car, that company is paid €49 per hour. The Government says we got a good deal, but I do not think we got a good deal. It is anything but a good deal.

Chairman

In any test that has to be done certain regulations are laid down. If one is filling in a form for the Department of Social and Family Affairs there is a check list. The gentleman to whom Mr. Lernihan referred did not fulfil the check list.

Mr. Donovan

Does one take off the hubcaps of one's car when taking it for a service?

Chairman

I had to. I am talking about an NCT, not a service.

Mr. Donovan

I understand that.

Mr. Lernihan

There should be no difference. It is a service for which we pay these people. We pay these people €49 for 20 minutes labour, that is, €147 per hour to SGS, yet it insults us. The problem is these people insult us. If I go into Shiels Garage for a service the mechanic charges €50 per hour, while these people charge €147 per hour. If the mechanic asked me to remove the wheels I would ask if he was for real as I was paying for the service. That is crazy.

Chairman

Will Mr. Lernihan answer Deputy Shortall's question?

Mr. Lernihan

It is a micky mouse issue.

Deputy Shortall

Is there much regional variation in the level of complaints?

Mr. Lernihan

There is.

Deputy Shortall

From where do most complaints come? What is the role of the AA in monitoring the contract? That is the body that is supposed to represent drivers and consumers and have a monitoring role. Given Mr. Lernihan's concern for the NCT, I wonder why his association has not met the AA and raised its concerns.

Mr. Lernihan

We are working people and do not get the time to do all these things. This man has a job and I have a job. It is fine for people to ask if one did this, that or the other. We do not have the time but we do the best we can for the citizen who is of the opinion that he or she has been failed. Given the number of complaints something should be done about the NCT. The committee does not have to take my word for it, a number of complaints come through the media, the radio and so on. Surely to God something can be done about the NCT to deliver justice for the people.

Deputy Connaughton

There is no doubt that a great number of motorists would share the view expressed here. I want to ask the group two or three questions. I believe its members are genuine in what they are doing and that they represent a great number of people. As we all know, when the NCT was first introduced, an avalanche of complaints resulted. I represent Galway East and do not currently get many complaints about the NCT. However, from a national aspect, there is the question of the monopoly.

As elected representatives, we have or should have an eye out for value for money. The Committee of Public Accounts does nothing else but ensure we get value for money. That is a quite reasonable proposition, where one has a monopoly involving one company. How would the group feel if there were no monopoly, which would mean competition for the NCT contract? The group is surely not suggesting that every garage owner in the country could carry out the testing. I assume that would not work, or could it?

Deputy O. Mitchell

It works in other countries. That is the system in Britain.

Mr. Lernihan

Where I come from in Ennis, we have three garages carrying out pre-NCT testing. I believe their equipment is better than that used in the NCT tests and it has regularly been proven that these garages could carry out the tests.

The driving test scheme operated by the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is quite successful, if not 100% so. We have no complaints with those tests because consumers have a choice, as they should have. We wrote to the Competition Authority which informed us it advised the Government of the situation and that the Government refused to listen. I have the relevant letter with me.

Deputy O. Mitchell

May I have a copy?

Mr. Lernihan

Yes.

Deputy Connaughton

Does the group contend that if the monopoly were dismantled, the NCT would be cheaper?

Mr. Lernihan

Not cheaper as such, but the consumer would get better value for money and cars would not fail the test for minor matters which have nothing to do with safety.

Deputy Connaughton

In other words, the private operator is likely to take the two bags of shopping out of the boot of the car.

Mr. Russell

Article 2 of EU Directive 96/96 places particular emphasis on this. It stipulates that in particular, when establishments designated as vehicle testing centres also perform motor vehicle repairs, member states shall make every effort to ensure the objectivity and the high quality of the vehicle testing. NCT has a monopoly, which is in breach of Article 82 of the Treaty of Rome. While that is permitted, it is also permitted for the Government to have private bodies carrying out the tests, and particular emphasis is placed on this aspect in Article 2 of EU Directive 96/96. I do not know the Irish legislation implementing the directive, but the directive provides for this.

It seems to me in practice that since the NCT service is the only body operating in this area, the consumer has no choice but to go to it. Moreover, as Mr. Lernihan says, consumers often have to travel long distances to do the test with potential loss of working days and can have their cars failed for the most minor and ridiculous matters. With the greatest respect, I have nothing against the Irish language, but when someone tells me or another citizen of this country that my car is not roadworthy or safe because I am not promoting the Irish language on the registration plate, I could take offence. It has nothing to do with road safety or roadworthiness.

Chairman

On that issue, what would the group consider a minor fault or failing?

Mr. Russell

Specific matters must be checked. The EU directive has identified brakes, which concern safety.

Chairman

What would you consider a minor failing?

Mr. Russell

I do not get to make that choice.

Chairman

Mr. Lernihan has stated that cars are failed for minor matters.

Mr. Russell

One of my cars was failed because the boot would not open with a key. It was not designed to open with a key. The manufacturer had designed the car boot to be popped with a lever from inside the car, and the tester put that down as a failure. When I explained the situation to him he looked at me as if I came from Mars, with ten heads, suggesting how I dare question him on this issue.

Chairman

Such matters should be highlighted to the Department and to any public representative because that is wrong. I could understand it if the tester failed the car on the basis of a brake light not working, for example.

Deputy Connaughton

Can the group tell us if the number of complaints about the NCT has been increasing or staying at the same level over the past two or three years, or where we can get factual information on that point?

Mr. Donovan

We were actively involved in protest marches in Limerick city and county. Following those marches, a mid-term review and a good deal of publicity, the situation has improved considerably. However, we still await the report.

Senator Dooley

I welcome the delegation. I know two of the gentlemen and know them to be of very sound character, people who are passionate about the issues. There is little doubt that there are issues involving the NCT, usually quibbles of a minor nature, but they cause inconvenience to people's lives. That is the greatest problem. People rarely take action three or four days after the event, and regard it as being over, but when these minor matters arise, such as the opening of the car boot, or safety belts, or bags of shopping in the boot, they are very frustrating.

Chairman

What is the situation with safety belts?

Mr. Lernihan

If part of the belt cannot be found, or has fallen down by the car seat, the car is failed. What is more annoying is that if an elderly driver brings a car for the NCT with its four wheel trims in place, the testers know instantly the car will fail. They cannot tell the driver the trims must be removed. The car is let through and then failed. That makes no sense.

Senator Dooley

Such matters are minor but there is a case to be made. The group can make it, and I do not need to advise them. It could work on a charter of rights for the motorist in terms of what motorists expect in terms of courtesy. Other Departments such as the Department of Agriculture and Food and the Department of Social and Family Affairs have done so. There is an expectation from Departments dealing with great numbers of the public of one's rights on arrival, and how one should be treated. I suggest the group makes suggestions on a charter of rights, based on the complaints it has noted, and work towards its ultimate goal of a charter.

I would have concerns about the issue of value for money. When one tries to set a standard, and one introduces the notion of competition, it can have an impact on maintaining that standard. Every day we discuss road safety and death on the road. If we are to continue to make an impact in that area, any suggestion of standards not being adhered to through competition is unacceptable. If there were competition in Clare right now, and someone thought it was easier to pass the car test in Kilrush than in Ennis, or easier in Scariff than in Shannon, there would be a flood of people. The same happens to some extent in this notional idea that it is easier to pass the driving test in Loughrea than it is in Ballyhaunis or wherever. That is the reason competition would not work with regard to maintaining a standard.

I take the point Mr. Russell made about the State being required to protect the integrity of the NCT test. The problem is that the test would be carried out at the front of the garage while the service would be carried out at the back. This would create further difficulties and we would end up with more people complaining to the association and to us. They would say they bought a car that had gone through the test and been serviced and this would create further conflict. The way forward might be to deal with the minor issues and then develop a charter of rights, based on the complaints received. I do not doubt the complaints the association has received, but they should be compiled in a form that would bring forward suggestions for the changes required.

The NCT will and must remain for obvious reasons. The minor issues should be examined, but I suggest that the association should return to the committee or submit a documented compilation of the complaints it has received from which we could work on a charter of rights. Much of the association's submission concerned the interaction of the citizen with what may, by virtue of its monopoly, be termed an "agent" of the State. We are all conscious that the real gap is, in the words of Mr. Lernihan, in the area of "justice for the citizen". The solution requires common sense. A standard charter of eight or ten expectations or rights allowing the person involved to identify where the system has fallen foul of the charter, would make it easier for us and the representative organisation to deal with the issue.

Deputy Healy

I thank the deputations for attending today. They have raised an issue which needed debate and our discussion has been a worthwhile exercise. We must consider the need for a review and examine the issues of the monopoly and the failure of drivers to be granted licences on minor issues, a matter of particular annoyance to drivers. It is good that these issues have been raised and we must try to make progress in this regard.

Deputy O’Donovan

I am not a member of this committee but I have listened with interest and would like to make two brief comments. I lived in London for some time where there was open abuse in every corner garage. I know of a situation where a man I was travelling with went into a garage one morning and paid £10 for the job. On the motorway on the way to Oxford the front wheel fell off the car. I had no meas on such tests because wherever I went all sorts of bangers were passed, which indicates widespread abuse of the system at the time.

I had a nine-year-old Mercedes about two or three years ago. One Sunday morning I travelled 25 miles and had it serviced thoroughly and checked out for its NCT at a cost of a few hundred euro. However, when I took the car for its test, the NCT team found a serious fault with the brakes and when I returned to the garage to inform the owner the man was embarrassed as he said he had done all the checks. I think I owe my life to the NCT because if I hit the brakes hard when travelling at, perhaps, 60 mph, the brake fluid would have escaped because a valve or washer was gone. Despite the fact the car had been serviced thoroughly by a reputable dealer, the NCT pointed out this technical fault in the front brake system that could have been serious.

This is my experience. While I understand the frustration with the system, the NCT was not introduced before its time. If there are problems, the system should be tweaked and improved.

Mr. Lernihan

We have no problem with the NCT. However, we need competition. We cannot operate without competition. The EU directs we should have competition.

Chairman

I would be very concerned about competition.

Mr. Lernihan

When we say competition we suggest there should be approximately three different companies providing the NCT. When we have a monopoly, we create corruption because people have nowhere else to go.

Chairman

That last remark should be withdrawn.

Mr. Lernihan

I will withdraw it, but I am sorry to say it is happening.

Mr. Russell

May I reply briefly to Senator Dooley? I appreciate what he said, but from the number of complaints we have received, what concerns us about the NCT is that a failure mentality prevails at the NCT centre. I have seen reports where people get passes on almost everything but fail for one little item. If it was a maths or any other exam, such results would give a pass or a distinction. However, as soon as the NCT tester marks one item a fail, the person does not get a pass certificate. These may be minor items, but they cost citizens significant amounts of money.

Chairman

Deputy O'Donovan made the important point that the NCT can identify what might be a major fault. If there are specific instances where the association feels somebody has been badly treated, any member would be delighted to be informed and to take up the issue on its behalf. However, nobody will get involved in cases where a fault that could be life-threatening would be allowed a pass.

I thank Mr. Lernihan, Mr. Russell and Mr. Donovan. I hope they did not feel we gave them a hard time. We tried to tease out the issue. While there must be proper testing, people must be treated fairly. The deputation pointed out the case of the man whose car failed the test because he left items in the boot of his car. People are given guidelines and a checklist and he should have dealt with that before he went for his test.

Mr. Lernihan

I would like to make a point about that. Why should the Department issue a checklist of 400 items to the NCT centre? The Department should have nothing to do with it.

Chairman

We must accept that the checklist is also given to the public before they take their cars for their test.

Mr. Lernihan

Many of these people live in rural areas. Who outlines for them what will happen? The man in question knew nothing about being required to remove the bags from his boot. Did the Department of Transport send him any information?

Chairman

He received a notice.

Mr. Lernihan

He did not receive the checklist of 400 items. He had no idea.

Chairman

He received a notice which included a list of specific items, for example, to have hub caps removed, to have free access to the spare tyre, etc. Those conditions are on the notice. If people do not comply with the conditions, they cannot blame people for refusing to carry out the test.

The joint committee adjourned at 1 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 11 May 2006.