JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht

Business of Joint Committee.

Chairman

I thank members for electing me as Chairman of this important committee. I look forward to working with everyone in a spirit of partnership and co-operation. I am confident we will bring our combined skills and enthusiasm to bear on this highly productive committee and that we will discharge our functions in an efficient and enlightened way.

I welcome the new members of the committee, particularly those newly elected to the Oireachtas. I also pay tribute to former members of the committee who brought their own experiences and knowledge to the work of the last committee. I pay particular tribute to Senator Ellis for his work as Chairman of that committee.

I intend to act in a fair and impartial way and hope the committee will contribute positively towards the progression of transport policy and legislation over the period of this Dáil and Seanad. There are many challenges in the sector. Unprecedented economic growth has caused demand for major development of all aspects of our transport infrastructure. We are all aware of the frustrations experienced by the travelling public because of the inadequacies of our transport options. Therefore, providing safe, efficient and cost effective transport infrastructure is a major challenge that will take time and money. I hope the committee will strive to turn these challenges into opportunities.

We will work in support of the Minister for Transport and his departmental officials and co-operate and assist in the difficult and wide-ranging tasks they have to complete in the implementation of Government policy. Looking around the room, I am sure members will provide critical analysis of specific initiatives either not up to standard or slow in their implementation. Our objective is to make a positive contribution to the improvement of transport infrastructure.

Our top priority should be to improve public transport and move away from the car culture, urgently progressing the roll-out of quality bus and rail transport. Vehicle numbers have risen by 86% or 1 million since 1995, a phenomenal increase. Irrespective of the road construction programme, we cannot continue to have single occupant cars as our main mode of transport. I propose that we investigate this issue, initiate a public debate and produce a report on congestion charges, starting in Dublin, the provision of park and ride facilities, particularly for bus transport, in all of our cities, the development of quality bus corridors and making certain areas of our city centres car-free.

I have circulated some documentation outlining the experience in London of the congestion charge and hope we will carry out examinations of some of the successful experiences of park and ride facilities in York and Chester in Britain. It is interesting that there are no bus park and ride facilities in Dublin, Galway, Waterford and Limerick. Only in Cork has such a project commenced and it has been a huge success, with 1,000 car spaces provided outside Cork city. From the research I have done since it was indicated that I would be appointed to the committee, a significant amount of money has been made available by the Department of Transport for such facilities but it has not been taken up. That is remarkable. I propose that we invite the city managers of the three Dublin local authorities, senior management from CIE and private bus operators and departmental officials to appear before the committee to examine the reasons the approach to the provision of park and ride facilities and quality bus services has not been more progressive.

Other priorities I have listed include road safety, learner drivers, the accessibility of public transport and air transport services, not least at Shannon Airport, an issue close to our hearts. There are many important issues for us to discuss and we have a lot of work to do. This committee can make a significant contribution. I look forward to working with all committee members in that respect.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Aontaím lena lán dos na rudaí atá ráite ag an gCathaoirleach. Tá sé an-tábhachtach go mbeadh daoine in ann dul chun oibre, go háirithe, ar iompair phoiblí.

I agree that the issue of public transport must be tackled by this committee. My first parliamentary question to the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, was related to the provision of park and ride facilities on the outskirts of the city. It appears that local authorities have certain powers in this regard. I agree that bringing county managers before the committee could effect change.

The most important transport issue in some years involves the loss of the Shannon Airport-Heathrow Airport slots. My priority is the investigation of the report prepared by the Department of Transport on the surrounding issues. The Secretary General of the Department has produced a comprehensive report and we should invite her to appear before us with the members of her staff quoted in the report, with the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Transport to examine the matter. We must properly scrutinise transport matters.

Deputy Áine Brady

I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and wish him well. I agree with him on many of the issues raised, particularly the provision of park and ride facilities, a matter close to my heart in north Kildare where the transport system is good but parking problems are experienced. I have been in touch with the local authority, Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann in the past year and a half about the matter.

I recently conducted research on feeder buses and it seems people do not like to have to depend on them to arrive at a particular destination. As the Chairman said, parking at a centre gives greater control and is a better idea generally. This matter must be examined urgently because if we do not provide parking facilities, there will no be point providing good public transport services which are improving all the time.

I have already spoken in the Dáil on the issue of road safety and I am delighted the Chairman made reference to it. In the debate I raised the notion of off-road driving centres, particularly for young people. The local authority did not grant planning permission for such a centre in my constituency but such centres are important in keeping those beginning to drive off our roads, even in the company of a qualified driver. They should first learn to drive in an off-road environment. Foreign drivers could also use such a facility to learn about road signs, the rules of the road and so on. This is an important matter on which this committee can work.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I congratulate the Chairman and Vice Chairman on their appointments to chair this important committee. As with several other people here, I served on the Joint Committee on Transport over the past five years, when a large volume of work was undertaken. I have no doubt the Chairman will continue this work given the way he has indicated he will conduct business.

In his opening address the Chairman spoke about the necessity to look at congestion and how we can help to relieve the difficulties associated with the ever-increasing number of cars on our streets. I welcome that. I also welcome Deputy Fergus O'Dowd's intervention regarding aviation policy. I ask the Chairman to give consideration to the Shannon Airport debacle and difficulties resulting from the decision of Aer Lingus to pull out of the area at his earliest convenience.

It is important to address what has happened but this committee should be utilised to look towards the future. There is little doubt that we must clear up some of the information deficit pertaining to who knew what and when, but if this committee is to be effective it must look to the future and ensure we find a way to assist in the maintenance or development of connectivity for the west and mid west. We have a role to play there in terms of bringing a number of disparate parties and organisations together to ensure an effective policy.

Notwithstanding what has happened, there are considerable continuing threats to connectivity in the west and there are concerns about future interest there, particularly pertaining to commercial transatlantic services. It would be worthwhile to debate the matter now rather than finding ourselves in a similar scenario to that in the summer, when the issue was foisted on us and we did not appear to have a plan B. I would welcome an open and frank debate, coupled with a workman-like approach, to assist in devising policies in that regard.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and Deputy Connaughton on his appointment as Vice Chairman. I am delighted to be a member of the committee, which I requested because I have an interest in public transport. It pleases me greatly to see that it will be a key element of the Chairman's strategy to seek promotion of public transport at every opportunity.

The Chairman has already mentioned park and ride facilities, which we have rolled out in Cork. The Black Ash park and ride site is very successful and we are rolling out green routes at a significant pace also. The only sustainable way of dealing with traffic congestion is through investment in a modern public transport network. I welcome the fact that this committee sees public transport as a priority.

I also support fully the Chairman's comments on road safety. It is essential we make further progress and continue to make decisions that will improve safety on our public roads.

I agree with Deputy Dooley's comments on aviation policy. The State Airports Act 2004 has yet to be fully implemented. In Shannon and Cork boards are in place but effectively they have no power. That is a major outstanding issue which we should prioritise. Shannon has been the subject of much publicity recently with regard to the loss of the Heathrow slots and connectivity. Cork has a major outstanding issue relating to a €220 million debt connected with the new terminal development and other facilities at the airport. We must see full implementation of the State Airports Act 2004 so Shannon and Cork can go their own way on an independent and commercially viable basis. I will promote that vigorously through this committee.

I wish the committee well in its work and look forward to contributing to the work programme in as positive a way as is possible.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and thank Deputies O'Dowd and Broughan for proposing and seconding my nomination as Vice Chairman. I had the privilege of being a member of the last committee for five years. Deputy Dooley and I are the only members of this committee who were also members of the last. The meetings of the last committee provided an excellent forum to discuss issues with the parties involved.

The Chairman struck a chord with me when he spoke about the lack of provision of park and ride facilities for bus services. No matter how wide the thoroughfares or extensive the interurban routes, if enough motorists are heading in the same direction, there will be major delays. The public transport services and associated park and ride facilities in our cities and towns are simply inadequate. The Chairman correctly observed that the more cars on the road in the absence of such facilities the greater is the mayhem. I look forward to a meeting of this committee at which the various local authority managers will attend to discuss this issue.

Representatives of the Road Safety Authority should attend a meeting of the committee at least once a quarter. There are many different aspects of the authority's work and the public will expect us to ask many searching questions. We should give credit where it is due but we must also point to the changes that are not occurring quickly enough.

It is great to see so many members who are new Deputies and Senators. I have no doubt that the Chairman will allow everybody a fair chance to have their say. His track record indicates this will be the case. New members may find it unusual that I propose a time allocation for members' contributions. I expect the spokespersons of the various parties will, as usual, take the floor first in any discussion. However, they and others should have a specified timeframe for contributions.

All of us are here to do a job for our constituents and we are all anxious that they should know we are doing it. It is important, therefore, that all members should be visible on the screen when the proceedings of committee meetings are broadcast. However, it is regularly the case that only two or three members can be seen while the others are invisible. When our constituents watch in Cork, Clare or Galway, they wonder where we are. I do not understand why the technology cannot allow for a sweep of the entire table. I recall raising this issue before and meeting with some gobbledegook to the effect that the technology was inadequate to meet certain requirements. This is an important issue for every member.

Many delegations will appear before this and other committees. We should not allow delegates to spend up to 90 minutes, as has happened in the past, giving us the benefit of their excellent knowledge. Instead, they should be asked to condense their contributions, thus allowing adequate time for question and answer sessions. The former Chairman did his best to ensure this was the case. Such an arrangement would allow the committee's work to proceed more smoothly.

This is an extremely important committee and I have no doubt that members will greatly enjoy it. I look forward to working with all of them.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I congratulate the Chairman and Deputy Connaughton on his election as Vice Chairman.

Regarding the work programme, I too would like an early discussion on Shannon Airport. I agree with Deputy Dooley that we must look forward, not back and examine the issue of connectivity. This must be done at an early date because Shannon Airport and the future of Irish aviation are critically intertwined. There are profound concerns as to what will happen down the line given the situation with Aer Lingus.

I have already proposed to the Vice Chairman that the Road Safety Authority should report to the committee on a regular basis. We are all concerned about what will happen on 30 June 2008 with driver-testing and learner drivers. It is important the committee knows what is on-stream and how the testing backlog will be tackled.

Next month the budget will be announced. The Minister for Finance has promised that the national development plan, including Transport 21, will be delivered. It is the committee's remit to ensure this happens. Already in Dublin there is a feeling that there has been some slippage with the metro north project. We want to see it rolled out in Dublin Airport and Swords and it is critical it is delivered on time. There has been slippage on other projects too.

I welcome the proposal of the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, for the interconnector for Dublin's rail stations. The delivery of such a project would mean that at long last there would be a viable public transport system for Dublin. The implementation of Transport 21 also needs to be invigilated by the committee.

During the summer I had the pleasure of being in the Chairman's great city, Galway, addressing the Labour Party's youth wing on a debate about Ceannt Station and its environs. I want the committee to debate public transport in other major cities such as Galway, Limerick and Cork, particularly the proposed Luas-type development for Cork.

While these are items for the committee's work programme, people are expecting us to debate Shannon Airport as soon as possible.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

Gabhaim comhgairdeas leat, a Chathaoirligh, agus an Teachta Connaughton. I share your aspirations for the committee's work programme.

If I can wear my parochial hat, park and ride facilities on the outskirts of our towns and feeder buses for bus terminals and rail stations are necessary. Provision of park and ride facilities is the responsibility of local authorities, yet many of them will argue they do not have funding for it or it does not come under their remit. Tackling traffic congestion cannot be done until such time as there is decent public transport. I agree we must focus the minds of Iarnród Éireann, the RPA and other agencies involved.

Every weekday Dublin North is infiltrated by thousands of cars from 6.30 a.m. Unless people can get on trains at Drogheda or Balbriggan, they will continue to drive on the M1, taking 20 minutes to travel one mile or less through Swords and Clontarf. We must ensure that we deliver on Transport 21. The money is committed and we must sit on the agencies to be certain they deliver. If there are problems with local authorities or other bodies, we must iron them out.

It is not appropriate for us to talk about congestion similar to congestion in London. London has had a fantastic underground system for decades but we do not have that yet and the comparison cannot be made. The aspiration exists but before we tell the public that it will cost €5 to get into Dublin city, they must be offered an alternative whereby they can get into the city by public transport.

It is a shame ordinary cars cannot use the port tunnel, despite it being established to deal with commercial traffic from the port. It is under-used and it is ridiculous that cars are travelling congested routes into the city and polluting the atmosphere when the tunnel would reduce journey times significantly. I am a regular user, even at the cost of €6 after 10 a.m. and €12 before. It was built by the taxpayer and it will alleviate congestion. When people are channelled on to the other routes, they are chock-a-block and all we are doing is emitting CO2. We must get to grips with this. The money that would accrue to the Government could be used to provide other facilities such as park and ride and feeder buses.

I would welcome an invitation to Iarnród Éireann, the Railway Procurement Agency, Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann to come together so we can establish an agreed programme in the shortest possible time. Everyone passes the buck for one reason or another - local authorities do not want to know about park and ride, Dublin Bus does not want to know about Bus Éireann, Bus Éireann does not want to know about Iarnród Éireann and Iarnród Éireann does not want to know about the RPA. It is incumbent on us to knock heads together to make sure these agencies come together as soon as possible. There is a Government commitment under Transport 21 with €34 billion to back it up and if this committee knocked heads together to ensure that programme was implemented according to the timescale, it would be a great day's work.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I also wish the Chairman well and congratulate Deputy Paul Connaughton on his election as Vice Chairman. This is an influential committee and I look forward to working with everyone on it.

Public transport is an issue of concern to me. It should not just be seen as an urban matter. We must extend it to rural areas. We are waiting for extra carriages for the Sligo train but, while those carriages will be welcome, as Senator Ellis would agree, people in areas of Leitrim such as Ballinamore and Mohill must get a taxi to the station in Sligo. That is not an equitable public transport system and it must be examined. We must have a national public transport system that serves every town and village in the country. A person taking a train from Dublin should have access to a bus link that will take him or her the extra 15 or 20 miles, otherwise we are talking nonsense.

I would like the National Roads Authority to upgrade many national secondary roads to national primary roads because, while much work has been done, many secondary roads are not receiving the necessary finance and the National Roads Authority appears answerable to no one. We must try to have these roads upgraded so they will at least receive funding to raise their levels of safety.

This committee must talk to planners and the Department of Education and Science. Last night a group of students from a school in south Lucan visited the Houses of the Oireachtas. There are 26,000 people in that area without hope of getting a secondary school. Mention has been made of carbon footprints and the green impact of transport but these people are making unnecessary journeys from the area in which they live. If they had access to a school in the middle of that area there would be a significant reduction in traffic.

I look forward to an informed debate on Shannon Airport. Ryanair has been a major success story in the aviation industry but it has its negative points also and we must try to protect other carriers. We may talk about the free market and competition but we have a duty to protect small airports. We also have a duty to ensure Ryanair is allowed continue but we must protect smaller routes and carriers.

I wish the Chairman every success and look forward to working with all members of this committee.

Senator John Ellis

I congratulate the Chairman on his appointment and also the Vice Chairman, Deputy Paul Connaughton. During my tenure I found that some people were very helpful and others very negative, as Deputy Connaughton said earlier.

The top priority of this committee should be to act as watchdog over the various bodies that fall under its auspices. There is a need to ensure that the various bodies responsible for the implementation of Transport 21 are made to outline progress regularly. We found, on occasion, that some groups would appear before the committee and promise the sun, moon and stars without achieving any progress in the following six months. The only way to combat this is to bring such groups before the committee regularly.

There is a need for a debate not only on Shannon Airport but on aviation throughout the country. Knock Airport serves the west of Ireland and there are many regional airports so a debate is necessary on how they will be funded and the service they will provide for those in their commuter belts. Commuter belts now affect airports. For example, Belfast International Airport is as close to me as Dublin Airport. People find this hard to grasp and aviation must be addressed on an all-Ireland basis, rather than the South versus the North.

Our job in this committee is to ensure that programmes that have cross-party support are implemented and that the various implementation bodies are held answerable to us on a regular basis. The Road Safety Authority was mentioned earlier and it is important that its chief executive, Mr. Noel Brett, be asked to appear before us and explain how he will deal with the issue of provisional drivers. This was attempted during the lifetime of the last committee and we pointed out that the situation would end in disaster. There was an interregnum so the Road Safety Authority probably decided to make a run for it. The Road Safety Authority should appear before the committee as soon as possible to explain how the matter is to be dealt with. We all know what the social and financial consequences of the proposals will be for people in rural Ireland, who must be defended.

Senator Paschal Donohoe

I wish the Chairman and my colleague, Deputy Connaughton, the best of luck in their respective roles. This is the first Oireachtas committee I have sat on so I am expecting great things. Based on comments made by others on areas to be examined I am sure it will be an interesting and productive committee of which to be a member.

Many of my colleagues have already commented on the need to examine Transport 21. The magnitude of the project is so great that it is very easy to be overwhelmed by it. We are talking about spending €10 million per day on public transport here for the next seven or eight years, and there is no policy area that involves so many different bodies in its delivery. These bodies include the RPA, CIE, the RSA and so on. Any role this committee can play in providing an oversight function and holding it to task would appear to be very worthwhile.

There are three areas I am particularly interested in. These include the Dublin transport authority, for which legislation is now pending. This committee could play a role in co-ordinating matters to ensure action is taken. A long-promised body is about to be created. It would be well worthwhile for us to play a role in this and to make an input.

I am also interested in the policy on bus provision. This is the most popular form of public transport but it is very much the poor relation in terms of investment under Transport 21. We should consider how we can support this area and deliver the right policy there.

With regard to Dublin transport, either this committee or a predecessor produced a report on transport policy and traffic issues in Dublin. The report did not mention the Luas or metro. That is not a criticism as that infrastructure was only on its way at the time. The situation has changed completely since then so it may be worthwhile during the lifetime of this committee to revisit the report and see what issues are out there and how the remaining years of Transport 21 can be used to solve them.

Chairman

I congratulate Senator Donohoe on his first meeting. The Senator has encapsulated a view around the table, also promoted by Deputy Connaughton and Senator Ellis, that one of the main issues is the delay in implementation of services and structures, and a key role of this committee will be to ensure that agencies are held to a work programme.

I agree with the point of view of the former Chairman that we should try to structure our work in such a way that we select the key areas and continuously demand a certain level of performance from key agencies in the identified areas. After discussion with the clerk to the committee, I suggest we meet in private session next week with a view to teasing out the issues raised. Perhaps we could set down a work programme and some parameters around issues including public transport, park and ride, Transport 21 and the airports Acts and their implementation. It would be a good idea to invite representatives from the Road Safety Authority in on a quarterly basis to start with, as has been suggested by members. We should also address the delay in establishing the Dublin transport authority.

The Shannon issue has been mentioned by several people and I am quite happy to have a debate and bring in the relevant people in that regard. I agree with Deputy Feighan that we need an informed debate on Shannon, which concerns more than Aer Lingus and the loss of the Heathrow slots. That is the most important factor and the Aer Lingus decision is both regrettable and unwarranted. I take on board Deputy O'Dowd's proposal that the Secretary General of the Department and other relevant parties be invited to appear before the committee. Representatives of Aer Lingus, however, are no longer obliged to appear before it.

It is important that representatives of the Shannon Airport Authority attend a meeting of the committee. Shannon Airport was a profit centre for itself rather than an economic generator for the region. That is changing but for developments to continue apace, many other changes are necessary. I agree that there is a wider issue to be examined than simply the status of Shannon Airport. There is a need for a review of the transport economics of the western seaboard. We have two international and four regional airports but there is no synergy or overall plan for air transport access to the west from north to south.

My first job was in Shannon Airport, but even I must acknowledge that it has been its own worst enemy. It concerns me that it may not fulfil its wonderful potential, unless there are changes in attitude. Perhaps the extensive debate that has taken place in the aftermath of Aer Lingus's decision to transfer its Heathrow slots could be a catalyst for change not only at Shannon Airport but also at Knock and in the west in general.

There is now a great opportunity for Shannon Airport to develop. In recent weeks the tenders for the construction of the Ennis bypass to Gort were issued. On 1 December the tenders for the section of motorway from Gort to Galway city will issue. This means there will be a motorway from Shannon to Galway and extending on to Tuam within the next three years. This will have a major impact on Shannon Airport. I am firmly of the view that Aer Lingus can, in time, be convinced to return to Shannon Airport because it will be a viable commercial proposition. However, many changes must take place before this will happen.

In regard to Deputy Kennedy's comments on congestion charges, the documentation I have circulated indicates that the exact same arguments were made in London as to why a congestion charge should not be introduced there. When I mentioned to several Dublin Deputies my intention to raise this issue today, they, too, made the same arguments against such a proposal. I appreciate their concerns. However, this committee is the ideal forum at which to examine the success of the London experience and bring the debate into the public domain. It is vital that we discourage people from driving their cars. While I love my car, I accept that we cannot expect to be able to drive into a small city centre without incurring some charge. Those of us who enjoy the luxury of driving into the centre of Dublin and parking our cars should have to pay for it.

I agree with Deputy Kennedy that we must also develop the public transport initiative but we should not wait for that project to be completed. At the rate it has happened thus far, we will be waiting a long time. This will be an interesting debate.

I propose that we meet again next week. The clerk has taken note of the issues raised but I ask members to send an e-mail listing their priorities for the work programme. The clerk will prepare a document outlining those priorities and we can move on from there. We will certainly focus on the broader context of the situation at Shannon Airport, the development of public transport services and the role of the Road Safety Authority. We might agree that these will be the key issues for us.

Members have asked about the day and time to be allocated for meetings. It is my understanding that 3.30 p.m. on a Wednesday was the slot allocated to the committee in the 29th Dáil. As many other committees are seeking this slot, we must propose an alternative.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht - Wednesday, 7 Nov 2007

Business of Joint Committee.

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Nov 2007