JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 2008

Road Safety Issues: Discussion with Road Safety Authority and Garda Síochána.

Chairman

I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Garda Commissioner, Fachtna Murphy, Assistant Commissioner, Eddie Rock, Chief Superintendent, Declan Coburn, Mr. Noel Brett, chief executive officer of the Road Safety Authority and Ms Sinéad McSweeney, director of communications with the Garda Síochána.

I invite Mr. Brett to make a submission after which the Commissioner will have an opportunity to make an opening statement. We will follow that with a question and answer session.

Mr. Noel Brett

I thank the Chairman and committee members for their kind invitation to appear before them to discuss road safety and regulations for learner drivers. I will be more than happy to answer any questions the committee has. I have made a written submission but do not propose to go through it page by page unless the Chairman wishes me to do so because it is a weighty submission.

I have attempted to give an overview of the current position of road safety from 1996, showing how this has improved and how the demography has changed, in respect of numbers of vehicles and driver profile. I will focus particularly on 2006, the most recent year for which we have data, published a couple of weeks ago in the road collision factbook. My submission draws significantly on that document to show the types of collisions that have occurred, their causes, the types of people involved and their locations.

The appendix contains two graphs of deaths per million and serious injuries in each county, showing the international measures of deaths per million or per kilometre travelled. In Ireland we measure deaths per month. The death rate per month is dropping and the new road safety strategy needs to get it down to 21 per month, or better, by 2012. In 2007 it was down to 28. I have tried to illustrate Ireland's performance in Europe with two tables. The good news is that in the past two years we have moved up to tenth place among European nations.

Chairman

What page is the table on?

Mr. Noel Brett

It is at the top of page 5. The graph illustrates our movement in respect of death rate per million. The second chart measures the countries in Europe which have improved most in reducing death and serious injuries. Ireland moved up significantly between 2005 and 2006 from being one of the worst performing countries in 2004 and 2005. Preliminary figures for 2007 show that we are moving up another few points in Europe. The road safety strategy aims to make Ireland one of the safest countries, with best practice.

As the death and serious injury rate drops, the challenge increases as we risk complacency. It is easier to make reductions in the earlier years. We are down to low statistics and maintaining those reductions will be particularly challenging, and forcing them down further will test all the agencies involved and public support.

We are regularly asked about the reasons for collisions. Based on 2006 data, we know that 82% of the fatal collisions are predominantly attributable to driver behaviour and 11% to pedestrian behaviour. Some 2% of fatalities in 2006 were caused by vehicle factors, such as mechanical failures and tyre blow-outs. Road and environmental factors caused 5% of the collisions, 2.5% of which are road-related. That is an increase of 1% over the previous year for road factors. The condition, layout and alignment of roads arise more frequently as factors in collisions.

Young males aged between 17 and 34 are at highest risk of death and serious injury. For every kilometre a 17 year old drives in Ireland he is eight times more likely to be killed in a collision than a middle-aged man. There was reduction in the death and injury of young men as drivers and passengers in 2007 but not of older people as drivers, and particularly as pedestrians. There has been a significant increase in the death rate of pedestrians in their 70s and 80s. In 2007, for example, 13 pedestrians aged between 76 and 80, and nine over the age of 81 were killed. This poses significant challenges. We have devised some actions to target those at-risk groups.

Ireland is unusual when compared with the European neighbours against which it is benchmarked in that 94% of our road network is local and regional, and only 6% is national. That creates a difficulty because the safest roads are high quality dual carriageways and motorways where oncoming traffic is segregated and there is no mixing with vulnerable road users. The reverse is the case in the countries against which we are benchmarked which have predominantly national routes, for historical reasons. This poses significant challenges for us in respect of road maintenance and the mixing of vulnerable road users in rural areas where most of our collisions happen.

New safety measures include the following: penalty points; the new rules of the road, which are available in Irish, English, Russian, Polish and Mandarin, in audio copy and on a new website; driver training; licensing reform; the introduction of approved driving instructors; and we hope to go live at the end of this year with compulsory regulation. We are trying to shift the backlog in driver testing, and issuing learner permits, created by 40 years of over-dependence on provisional licences.

The appendix gives details on the numbers of licence holders by category and county. The consistency of the driving test arises in respect of outsourced contractors and the Comptroller and Auditor General focused on this prior to the establishment of the Road Safety Authority. The last time I met this committee, in the previous Dáil, members wanted us to focus on compulsory basic training for commercial drivers, trucks, buses and coaches and graduated driver licensing which is mentioned in the road safety strategy. We deal also with medical fitness to drive and non-Irish drivers, or those from minority ethnic communities. We are trying to bring our public awareness and education campaigns to the people who are at the danger point.

The challenges we face include commercial vehicle roadworthiness testing, the national car testing service and the condition of commercial fleets. The better the fleet, the fewer the collisions. This includes dealing with enforcement, tachographs and driver hours. I will be more than happy to respond to detailed questions on that or any other issue.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I thank the committee for the opportunity to address the important issue of road safety and the commitment of the Garda Síochána to reduce fatal and serious injuries on our roads.

In line with the Government's policy, road safety is a key priority for the Garda Síochána, featuring prominently in our policing plan for 2008. More importantly, it is a priority and concern for communities, families and friends of those who have lost their lives on the roads.

The approach of the Garda Síochána to meeting those concerns is focused and determined. We have a dedicated core of people, who use available technology, to target enforcement activity at locations most prone to collisions and loss of life through speeding and driving while drunk.

The strength of the Garda Traffic Corps, 531 in 2004, has doubled in the past three years. I am committed to an additional allocation of personnel during 2008, bringing the total personnel strength to 1,200. The work of the Garda Traffic Corps supplements the role and function of all members of the Garda Síochána who have a responsibility to ensure safety on our roads. I am also committed to ensuring the Garda Traffic Corps has the necessary technological resources to fulfil its role.

The main focus is on targeting enforcement where it is required. Up to 400 hand-held laser devices are used in targeting speed detection. These allow for flexibility and support the specific targeting of collision-prone locations and locations where ongoing research indicates significant speeding breaches are being committed.

This year the existing Garda mobile speed detection vans, known as GATSOs, will be replaced and upgraded with digital technology and additional units will be brought into service. It is hoped to have these state-of-the-art units available at the frontline of road safety enforcement presently.

The Garda Síochána will commence procurement of in-car camera systems with automatic number plate recognition, ANPR. I recently obtained financial approval for 100 of these units. In addition to a speed enforcement capability, ANPR camera systems have the capacity to check vehicles and identify those listed as being stolen, suspect, associated with, or cited as connected with persistent offending. The system will immediately alert the Garda in the patrol vehicle of the relevant details and will facilitate an interception where required.

Our approach is focused and determined. We will enforce the law and continue to target those who drive at excessive speed, those who drink and drive and those who make reckless decisions on the road, showing a complete disregard for their safety and those around them.

I make no apology for working to make our roads and our communities safer whether it is through speed enforcement, mandatory alcohol-testing or requiring people to wear seat belts. Our aim is to change driver behaviour and is the reason enforcement is geared towards high visibility and designed to enhance compliance.

During 2007 the Garda Síochána maintained a high level of visible enforcement activities on our roads with a view to reducing the incidents of fatal and serious injury collision. As a result of these activities, 458,504 fixed charge notices were issued with the principal offences being speeding, 198,820; seatbelts, 30,413; mobile telephones, 32,612.

We have analysed collision data to identify locations in the road network and the times at each location where there is a propensity for collisions. Based on this analysis, Garda activities are prioritised in areas and times when the highest propensity for collisions exists.

More than 900 collision-prone locations have been identified through the process, the details of which are published on the Garda Síochána website. Further detailed analysis was carried out in 2007 to identify locations where speed related collisions occur. The results of this analysis have been circulated to each Garda division as part of a validation process which will be completed shortly. Based on the results of this analysis, speed enforcement will then be prioritised in those locations where the greatest tendency for speed related collisions occur. It is also intended to publish those locations on the Garda website.

International research indicates the second greatest cause of road deaths, often combined with speeding, is drink-driving. In the European Union, it is estimated that between 2% to 3% of road journeys are associated with an illegal blood alcohol concentration, resulting in 30% to 40% of driver deaths.

Since the introduction of mandatory alcohol testing in July 2006, drink-driving has been a continued focus for Garda enforcement. Up to 18,821 detected drink-driving incidents were recorded on PULSE in 2007.

Members have available to them Garda statistics and analysis on collisions during 2007 and in the first five weeks of 2008, in so far as these can be compiled for these periods. Those statistics should never hide the fact that behind them are grieving families, devastated communities and traumatised friends.

While in overall terms the total number of collisions in 2007 was down 12 on the previous year to 309 and the total fatalities was down 27 to 338, some stark facts give rise to concern. The 16-25 year old age group still made up a significant percentage of total road deaths for the year. It represents 33% of driver fatalities and 47% of passengers. Some 75% of all fatalities are male and fatal collisions are more likely to occur on Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays. The highest category of fatalities in 2007 occurred between 4 p.m. and midnight — 129 incidents, 38% of the total.

Many of these collisions are preventable and much of the loss of life, pain and devastation avoidable. The Garda and other agencies involved have more to do to change driver behaviour. Over the past three years we have greatly increased the number of people dedicated to road safety enforcement. We continue to improve the technology available to them. We are enhancing our analysis capability to ensure resources are targeted where they are required and where they can save lives.

The Garda Síochána will continue to enforce the law. We do not want to catch people speeding or drink-driving but to stop them. We want to change driver behaviour and reduce the loss of life on our roads.

Chairman

I thank the Road Safety Authority and the Garda for their significant work in bringing about greater safety on the roads and reducing the level of accidents and fatalities.

Both have identified an area of significant difficulty, young male drivers who represent the highest risk area in road safety. I noted the targeting of Garda enforcement activity at collision-prone locations. Every weekend we read in the newspapers of the deaths of mainly young drivers in the early hours of the morning. Will the Commissioner say what efforts are being made to deter this type of activity, which is the main cause of road fatalities? He has mentioned speed and alcohol. In a letter to the Commissioner I requested details of road accidents that occurred in the first month of the year. I am disappointed at the response to the effect that no information is available. It would be significant, if as soon as possible after an accident takes place, the details surrounding it are made available to the public so that we can see why accidents are occurring, who the people involved are and whether alcohol or speed have contributed. It is imperative that this type of information is made available as quickly as possible. I would like his comments on the reasons we have had very little response to that question.

On drug testing, I note that 218 people were apprehended for alleged drug related offences in comparison to 17,000 for alcohol related offences. Given the very high usage of drugs among that cohort of young people, there must surely be a more effective way to test people for drugs. Could the Commissioner comment on the system in operation? Could he also comment on the need for new technology and the position on that, as regards where road side testing can take place?

Will he comment, too, on breath testing at the scene of an accident and what the legislative requirements are, if any, to improve the situation? Both the Road Safety Authority and the Garda have mentioned the matter of a reduction in the blood alcohol level being considered, from the present 0.08 figure. Perhaps the Commissioner might say what is involved in this proposed reduction as regards changing the amount of permissible alcohol in the blood, and how important this might be.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I shall take the questions in the order put by the Chairman. On the data, what I have provided are the figures the Garda Síochána collects bearing in mind that the overall data the committee requires was normally communicated to the National Roads Authority, but now goes to Mr. Brett's agency, the Road Safety Authority. The latest detailed analysis which would provide the Chairman with the type of information he asks for relates to 2006. However, what we gather is the data I provided yesterday to the committee, which looks at the ongoing numbers of people who have died on the roads, the type of fatality — whether pedestrian, driver, passenger, motor cyclist, pillion passenger, pedal cyclist and so on. We look at the monthly statistics and then collate the times of the day and the days of the week on which fatalities occurred. We also analyse information on the division in which fatalities occur with a view to targeting resources, allocating them to places of most need.

The Chairman sought information on the bigger picture in the first five weeks of this year. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to provide that detailed data. I have provided certain information in the letter on ages of drivers and driving licence details under the headings the Chairman asked about. He will be aware that many of those matters are under investigation — and often such investigations are detailed. That information is not readily available and could not be readily available because, as the Chairman will be aware, the blame that might attach in the context of prosecutions through the courts will take time to emerge. We have provided the information as it is available to us in the Garda Síochána, at this time.

On roadside drug testing, I have provided in my letter—

Chairman

I accept that, perhaps, the Commissioner cannot give the committee the information, as requested. However, how long does it take before the most important statistics on road fatalities emerge? Is it months, years or what?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

Mr. Brett will be able to take that question. However, in terms of the Garda Síochána supplying the information, the most up-to-date detailed statistics, I understand, are the 2006 figures. I will hand over to Mr. Brett—

Chairman

How many deaths were there in the first five weeks of this year?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

If the Chairman looks at the statistics sheet I gave him, he will see the number of deaths. Up until 5 February, there were 33 deaths on the roads, under the heading of monthly statistics. In the box above that, for 2008, one can see the type of vehicle user or pedestrian, as the case may be, who unfortunately lost his or her life. There were 18 drivers, seven passengers, two motor cyclists, one pillion passenger, one pedal cyclist and four pedestrians. Those were the figures up to 5 February 2008, a total of 33 deaths, and 24 of those occurred in the month of January.

Also in the information sheet I have provided are the times at which the accidents occurred. Three of those accidents occurred between 12 midnight and 2 a.m., five between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m., three between 6 a.m. and 8 a.m. The second highest number occurred between 8 a.m. and 10 a.m. in the morning and the highest number of accidents, seven, took place between 8 p.m. and 10 p.m. at night. That is the type of data and information we collate in the Garda Síochána to inform us as to where we should allocate our resources, the areas we should target and the times we should do it. It very much influences our allocation of resources and targeted operations.

On the general statistical analysis, Mr. Brett will be able to deal with that in more detail.

Chairman

I accept the cause of an accident may be subject to investigation. The Commissioner has given us the times. What about the location, type of road — national primary, secondary, county — age of driver, type of driving licence, nationality, number of vehicle occupants and so on? Is it possible to get that information, as it would be of interest? It is critical that we can look at accidents as they occur and see what happened. It could provide a very important deterrent to people if we indicate how accidents might happen and how they can be avoided.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I shall hand over to Mr. Brett and ask him to talk about the analysis.

Mr. Noel Brett

I will explain what happens when a fatal or serious injury collision occurs. The garda attending the scene investigates and he or she fills in a CT68 form which provides all of the details to which the Chairman has referred, including the location, age profile and so on. All of those forms are provided by the Garda Síochána to the Road Safety Authority and each year we produce a publication called Road Collision Facts. We have just published the 2006 version, and in that year there were more than 28,000 collisions. Just over 300 were fatal, but any one of them could have been.

We analyse all the data and produce those facts. The publication deals with driver type, location by road type, county, time of day and so on, and I will be delighted to send copies to each member of the committee if that is of use.

There is a time delay, which is a source of frustration to my board and those of us involved in road safety, whereby a high profile collision occurs, there is much media coverage of it and people speculate on what caused it. We feel that if we could come out directly and state the causes of the collision, there would be a huge impact on road user behaviour. Unfortunately, we cannot do that for a number of reasons. There will always be an investigation under way into a fatality and action inevitably will be taken by the Garda Síochána under the road traffic legislation. Once that is done, the coroner's court must sit and make a decision and we can wait up to 18 months or even longer before the data are produced. In a few high profile collisions where people have come out and called it prematurely, we subsequently discovered that the driver suffered a heart attack and was dead before the collision. Therefore, these cases are often due to natural causes rather than speed or alcohol related. We are not able to say in real time what has caused the collision because there is always a time delay.

We rely on various pieces of research. The main contributory factors to death and injury on Irish roads are impaired driving through the use of alcohol or drugs. We know that alcohol is a factor in about 33% of fatal and serious injury collisions. More research is being released based on 2004 and 2005, which will help us to firm up on that area. Drug driving is an area of significant concern to us and the Garda Síochána. There are two issues, namely, the use of prescription or over the counter drugs and how they impair driving, and the use of illicit drugs. The best research we have at the moment is being carried out by Professor Denis Cusack who is the director of the Medical Bureau of Road Safety which analyses all samples taken. We know from his research that there is a problem in Ireland of illicit drug use, which is predominantly a problem of younger drivers, both male and female.

The frightening statistic is related to the phenomenon of polydrug use where more than one drug is being used. For example, a person might take cocaine early on in the evening and take cannabis later on, often mixing it with alcohol. That presents a significant problem in trying to develop a roadside test. Tests using a hand-held breathalyser at the side of the road are only for one substance. The tests are not used as evidence gathering but instead are used to form an opinion. The person can then be brought to a police station and a sample of blood, urine or breath is required. That is where the evidence is formed. In dealing with impairment through the use of drugs, there is no single device that will test for the range of drugs. There are probably between seven and eight commonly used drugs that are turning up in the samples in Ireland. Professor Cusack would be better placed to provide the committee with the exact detail on that.

These illicit substances cannot be detected by breath samples. We need intimate body samples, the minimum being a saliva sample. In some jurisdictions, such as Victoria in Australia, there are pilot programmes for a hand-held device which would test for some drugs in saliva. It takes approximately three minutes and there are issues in dealing with that. We are carefully tracking that kind of development. People who watch American television shows will see the field impairment tests being carried out, where the driver is asked to undertake some functions, such as walking in a straight line or reciting the alphabet backwards.

Other recommendations to tackle drugs in the road safety strategy include increased training for enforcement officers in recognising the signs of drug impairment in a person, such as how it affects pupil dilation, speech, behaviour and so on. Gardaí can then form an opinion and bring that person to the Garda station. I have not seen the Commissioner's submission but I understand significant numbers are prosecuted for driving while impaired by drugs. Ireland is fortunate as our legislation deals with impaired driving through alcohol or drugs. If a garda forms the opinion that a person's driving is impaired, he or she can bring that person to a station and request a blood or urine sample which will highlight the drugs for which the sample is screened.

Professor Cusack's research is based on 2,000 blood samples taken over a number of years. It tells us that there is a problem but unfortunately there is no single roadside solution. What is needed perhaps is a field impairment test, more training for the people at the front end so they can recognise the signs and more prosecutions through blood and urine sampling. It is also worth noting that cannabis can be detected in the system between six and eight weeks after use. These are complex substances and getting it right will be difficult, but it is one of the priorities of the Road Safety Authority this year.

We are working on an anti-drug driving campaign and on distributing leaflets and that will be followed by our first cinema and television campaign against drug driving. We have taken our work into night clubs and pubs, while we were present along with the Garda at all the outdoor rock festivals last year to target these issues. There is no simple solution to drug driving in any European country. It is a problem which we must work on. Both the Road Safety Authority and the Garda Síochána are tracking what is happening and we will be up there with the best of them. It is very challenging.

Chairman

The committee will receive a submission from a company that obtained the piece of equipment for saliva testing from Victoria. We will be anxious to get a response from the Road Safety Authority on the possibilities that exist because I have seen a demonstration of it and it seems to be a good way of dealing with the issue. The 2000-01 report states that a large number of people drive under the influence of drugs. I appreciate the efforts being made but 218 incidents of drug driving recorded on PULSE in 2007 is a small number when compared with the reality of what is taking place. I appreciate the difficulties but I emphasise the need for immediate action and perhaps a recommendation to the Minister on the idea of introducing this piece of equipment which seems to me to be capable of carrying out a roadside test for drugs. That test must be verified, but as a first test it seems to be capable of detecting drugs through a saliva test.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

In the recent blitz mounted by the Garda Síochána in Cavan and Monaghan, what kind of technology was used for the alcohol plus drug invigilation?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I will answer Deputy Broughan's question in the context of Mr. Brett's statement and the questions already put to me. I agree with what he said when he stressed the complexity of the issue. The Chairman said 218 people were detected with drugs in their system, but that does not take into account the number who might have been driving under the influence of alcohol and who also had drugs in their system. We must look at the wider picture. We work very closely with the Medical Bureau of Road Safety and we issued instructions four or five years ago that in situations where there is a zero reading for alcohol, the bureau should examine the samples for drugs. That is based on our observation from the clinical information available to us and we rely on this. Our instructions to our members are to focus on it. I am aware more than anyone of the dangers of drugs because I must deploy resources in many other areas besides road traffic, especially the illicit drugs trade.

Mr. Brett has explained the situation very well, especially in pointing to its complexity. I have asked Assistant Commissioner Rock, who has ultimate responsibility in reporting to me for traffic matters in the Garda Síochána, to keep monitoring the ongoing research and the devices being used in other jurisdictions with a view of feeding into the debate. It will all be put into context when our decision is made on what devices we should use. I hear what the Chairman is saying and I support the ongoing research in this area but it is not without its complexities.

Deputy Broughan spoke about an operation which was mounted in the northern region. I am glad to have the opportunity to focus on those operations. Our traffic corps is allocated throughout each division and throughout each region. In each region a superintendent is responsible to the assistant commissioner in charge of the region for ensuring that resources are focused on the areas of greatest need. The operation mounted related to searching cars and other vehicles for drugs, and included the use of dogs and other devices. It was promoted in the media as a drug driving campaign but it was much wider than that, and it is the type of operation we will continue to run. Based on what is available to us at present, whereby we must rely on observation only in terms of the proofs that relate to drug driving, the figure of 218 apprehended in 2007 was significant and does not take into account what might have happened in regard to alcohol.

Mr. Noel Brett

I wish to spell out to the committee the importance of focusing on illicit drugs but also to be acutely aware of the issues with prescription and over-the-counter drugs, which are not easy to test for. There are significant issues in this country with the use of some prescription medications and particularly some over-the-counter medications. We want to work with the medical profession and the pharmacists. We have met the Irish Pharmaceutical Union and others to discuss how we might get more information.

In considering the whole range of road users, not just the young, we must deal with an ignorance of the impact and effect of illicit and prescription drugs. Members will have seen recent research published by the HSE last week, which suggests that despite a number of potential cocaine-related deaths in the country in the past few months, people still believe cocaine use does not impair them, is not addictive and is low risk.

We know people drive after using these substances so we need to get the right technology. I have met the Australian company to which reference was made. I have seen the device in action and know it is very impressive. The downside is that one would need to take an intimate sample at the roadside and there may be constitutional issues. The test takes three minutes to work so one would need to stop people, engage them, test them and detain them. It is about how this would work on the roadside. In Victoria, Australia, for example, there is a booze and drugs bus which brings the evidential technology to the roadside. Drivers are stopped and if the officer believes a driver is impaired through drink or drugs, his or her car is parked and the driver is brought into the booze bus and tested there. If the driver tests over the limits for drink or drugs, he or she is immediately taken to the police station.

We need to be careful we do not chase a technology because we believe it is simple and will operate easily at the roadside. In Ireland, we will probably be testing for seven or eight substances but, worse than that, for the poly-use of these substances, which is a significant challenge in terms of enforcement and getting evidence to stand up in court.

Deputy Frank Feighan

If I may come back in—

Chairman

I will allow the Deputy's party spokesperson to speak shortly. While I very much welcome what Mr. Brett is saying, it strikes me that the problem is even wider than the use of prescription drugs. For example, overnight drugs for colds and flu have a definite effect causing drowsiness. Is it possible one should not drive the following morning if one is taking such drugs? These drugs can be bought off the shelf. If one takes several types of drugs, or even just the two tablets one is instructed to take, there is no question there is a drowsy feeling in the morning. However, there is no indication that people should not drive. It would be helpful if, through the medical and pharmaceutical profession, warnings were put on prescription and non-prescription drugs with regard to this fact.

Mr. Noel Brett

We have already met the IPU to discuss the issue of what I call OTCs, or over-the-counter drugs, which is of concern to us. If one is feeling groggy, one tends to pick and mix medications to try to get better quickly. We know that some of those substances impair ability to drive or operate machinery but one will find a very small note on this in the box of medicine. What we are trying to achieve with the IPU is to give the punter at the counter much more information on these substances.

On the interrelationship between those substances and fatigue, not just in Ireland but across Europe one in five fatal collisions are thought to be directly related to driver fatigue. This is based on work carried out by Professor Horne at Loughborough University, who is showing us that driving while fatigued is as dangerous as driving at or above the drink driving limit. He estimates pretty robustly that 20% of cases are related to driver fatigue. When we add in the type of issues referred to by the Chairman, where someone might have taken an over-the-counter medicine and perhaps another medicine that does cause drowsiness, fatigue is a major and important issue, particularly with regard to rest areas and places to stop safely.

Driver fatigue is up there close to drink driving and speeding as a factor but it is an area that is very difficult to enforce. One requires drivers to comply but there are big challenges in terms of the road network in Ireland and getting people to understand the issue. Professor Horne's research shows us that the things we all do, such as opening the window or turning up the radio, simply do not work and can make the driver worse. The combination of drugs and fatigue is a challenge to our road designers and roads authorities.

Deputy Shane McEntee

On behalf of my party and as its spokesperson, I acknowledge it is good to be able to meet like this. I congratulate Mr. Noel Brett and the Garda Commissioner, assistant commissioner and chief superintendent on all the work that has been done over the past three years. The point we cannot afford to lose sight of is that in the 1970s and early 1980s, 700 to 800 people per year were being killed on our roads. We have greatly reduced this figure. Drink driving was a massive issue in those days but much work has been done by the relevant bodies to ensure it is done away with in Ireland.

As we all know, the drugs issue has become a major factor not alone in our cities but throughout our towns. Two years ago, the committee heard a presentation from an expert from Victoria about its system. That system was tested in court and stood up, so it is something we should immediately pursue. That said, if we put enough effort into ensuring there were no drugs in the country and that those dealing in drugs got life sentences, we might be much better off. We must begin to deal with this problem because it has destroyed rural life and society. Having dealt with young people for the past 25 years, I know it has taken a hold on the young, who now avail of drugs rather than drink. In every parish, they go to a local lane or gateway to take their drugs. Despite the amount of work the Garda is putting in to try to curtail the problem, they need much more help in this regard.

The bottom line is that 43 people have been killed on our roads to date this year, which has already exceeded our target. We know that this time last year a great impact was made on road deaths with the introduction of on-the-spot testing, but matters have slipped in the past five or six months and we are back to a situation of having horrific crashes and multiple deaths at the weekends.

I welcome the new clarity in the statistics, which was lacking. I congratulate Mr. Brett and all his team for providing these statistics because they mean we will know at the end of each year what has happened and, over a period of three or four years, we can work out the specific reasons for road deaths. An interesting statistic is that many of the current road deaths happen in the morning and early evening, and the age bracket is not as clear as it was.

From my former life outside politics, I have learned to always listen to the people on the ground. The one issue that has stood out in the past four or five months is complacency, which has set in with regard to speed. Speeding on the roads is a major factor which contributes to 26% of road deaths, although the use of mobile phones is another issue. We should specifically focus on speed cameras, which were to be introduced in the past seven or eight years. We do not know what is happening in this regard. Last week, I had a debate in Donegal with a colleague from another party. I could not believe it when I was told cost was an issue in the provision of speed cameras. No matter what is asked of the people of this country, they will comply. Even if there is initial opposition to speed cameras, motorists will slow down when they know they are in place. We cannot get away from the reality that speed is the issue. The Garda Síochána estimated last year that the cost of road collisions, including the resultant fatalities, was €1.33 billion. It seems incredible that there should be any objection to the provision of an additional €25 million for speed cameras.

What is the Garda view on the effectiveness of speed cameras? What is Mr. Brett's opinion on the impact of installing speed cameras throughout the State? There is a high degree of speed control in towns and cities but the data show that the major collisions take place in more rural areas where it is more difficult to monitor driver behaviour. What is the reason for the delay in introducing speed cameras? Is the Road Safety Authority of the view that it arises from a lack of funding or is there some other reason it has been put on the back-burner?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

I warmly welcome Commissioner Murphy, Assistant Commissioner Rock, the Chief Superintendent and Mr. Brett. I commend them on the tremendous efforts they are making to deal with the unacceptable casualty rate on our roads. The materials they have provided to the committee — the Road Safety Authority's collision report for 2006 and Commissioner Murphy's document — will be of valuable assistance in terms of policy formation and in helping us understand the current issues and trends. On behalf of the Labour Party, I am delighted to work with the delegates through this committee.

I echo my colleagues' comments on the provision of speed cameras. Is it correct that there might have been 60 to 70 fewer road deaths in the past two years if the 600 speed cameras that were promised had been rolled out? Instead, some 140 people are now tragically dead. As my colleague, Deputy McEntee, eloquently observed, the total cost in respect of road casualties, at €1.3 billion, far exceeds the estimated €50 million annual cost of speed cameras. We have heard upsetting reports and rumours from the board of the RSA that the authority's chairperson might resign over this issue. Mr. Gay Byrne has done a terrific job since the establishment of the agency. It is astonishing he would have to threaten resignation to impel some progress in this regard.

Mr. Brett produced a report on this issue from the University of Melbourne which shows clearly that a specified number of people would now be alive and uninjured if there had been a comprehensive roll-out of speed cameras. Will this roll-out take place? We had a briefing from the Department of Finance on the issue. It is upsetting that people are talking in terms of a cost of €30 million to €50 million per annum as set against the cost of the lives of our fellow citizens, relatives and friends who have died tragically in recent years. It does not bear comparison. Is there a sense of urgency on this issue?

The drugs issue is an important factor and I commend the Garda Síochána on its recent attempts to come to grips with this plague. We know that almost 40% of people who die on the roads do so as a result of alcohol related collisions. What progress has been made in moving towards a blood alcohol limit of 0.5 milligrams, as promised? That would effectively mean an end to drinking and driving. The detailed statistics provided by the RSA show that must be achieved and that we must make other arrangements in terms of rural and urban transport. I understand the RSA is awaiting a report on this and will bring a proposal to the board next month. How far are we from the 0.5 milligrams limit? There is powerful evidence of the role played by alcohol in road accidents.

The road safety strategy document is our bible. When this committee was established last October, the RSA asked that we view it as such and that we measure the authority's performance against the 126 or more actions contained therein. Many of these actions were flagged as due for implementation in the second, third or fourth quarter of 2008. What progress has been made on those fundamental changes?

On the issue of enforcement, for instance, the figures for August 2006 are striking. It seems inappropriate to refer to "only" 17 casualties but this was a relatively good statistic. It coincided with the introduction of random testing when people expected to be pulled over by the Garda. I recall gardaí on Merrion Street and Pearse Street testing motorists in batches. It seemed to be effective. There is evidence from Sweden that when one introduces a system such as random breath-testing or penalty points, casualties reduce initially but it becomes difficult to maintain that improvement.

It is wonderful to hear about the roll-out of the traffic corps but how far are we from the promised complement of 1,200? From working closely with the Dublin north central division, I know how the Garda operates. At this moment, for example, how many of the traffic corps are policing those areas to which the Chairman and Deputy McEntee referred, those dangerous regional and local roads where more than 60% of casualties occur? How many members of the traffic corps are at work in the evening and morning rush hours? Of the four Es, enforcement is the key.

Mr. Noel Brett

I will deal with the points raised by Deputies McEntee and Broughan. As members have seen from the document I circulated, it is estimated that speed is the major contributory factor in more than 40% of fatal collisions annually. I refer to excessive and inappropriate speed where motorists pay no heed to the conditions they encounter. In every collision, the speed at the point of impact determines the outcome. Of the more than 28,000 collisions that occurred last year, the majority, thankfully, resulted only in property damage. Based on the speeds involved, however, any one of those could have been a fatal collision.

Speed, therefore, is the largest single issue in terms of road safety. Garda data show that in all speed zones, whether 60 km/h, 80 km/h, 100 km/h or 120 km/h, the motorists caught speeding are driving at 20 km/h or 30 km/h above the posted limit. There is a significant issue in this country not only with the appropriateness of some speed limits but with the adherence to them. It is not a case of drivers being caught marginally above the limit. Rather, motorists are being detected travelling at significantly above the limit. It is interesting to note that five out of ten pedestrians struck by a car travelling at 50 km/h will be killed. We are talking about cars travelling at 120 km/h or 140 km/h and significantly above posted limits

It follows that what is required now is a robust campaign of education about and awareness of speeding. That is the task of my authority and we will continue to work to that end. However, our efforts must be backed up by very rigorous and robust enforcement. Speed is the most significant issue. Our task in regard to road safety is like assembling a jigsaw. We have dealt with mandatory alcohol testing and I will return to the point about the plateau effect. We are dealing with the excessive reliance on learner permits and with driver training and education issues. I will deal with the drugs issue. However, we must deal with the speeding issue as a matter of priority.

In my opinion and in the opinion of my board, the largest single challenge facing this country in 2008 and 2009 is to address the culture of speed. The only way that will happen is through my organisation ensuring that we win what we call the moral argument, in other words, that people accept that to drive at such crazy, reckless, breakneck speeds is a morally reprehensible thing to do. We move on then to winning what I call the fairness argument. Once people accept it is wrong to speed, they will also accept it is right that the Garda seeks to detect infringements of the speed laws. That must be backed up by enforcement, using the full range of technologies. Everyone weighs up the likelihood of being caught doing something and people must feel there is a real chance of being caught before they change their behaviour.

I will take members back to November 2002 when the Oireachtas approved the first tranche of penalty points for speed. In the 12 months that followed, 70 fewer people were killed. The graph dropped away because the majority of Irish motorists believed they would be caught and changed their behaviour. We are trying to induce everyone to make small changes in their personal behaviour, rather than grand gestures. The number of fatalities dropped by 70 after this happened. Moreover, the accident and emergency departments witnessed reductions in admissions as a result of road collisions. For example, the numbers in Tralee General Hospital were down by 25% and the admission rate for road collision-related spinal injuries to the national spinal injuries unit in the Mater Hospital dropped by 50% in 12 months. Unfortunately, the complacency to which the Deputy referred slipped back in again and people's behaviour deteriorated. Interventions such as penalty points, mandatory alcohol testing, speed cameras, safety cameras or increased enforcement will result in a drop in rates that will rise again gradually, after which it will plateau. The challenge to those of us engaged in this business, be it the enforcement agencies or me, is to keep the pieces of the jigsaw moving constantly and to try to keep people with us all the time. I agree the biggest challenge we face is to change our culture of excessive and inappropriate speed.

As for Deputy Broughan's comments on the road safety strategy, all the actions for 2007 have been completed in full and a group is in place to which all the agencies have signed up to address all the issues in 2007. For example, all the agencies have appointed senior people to work with us and under the legislation, the Road Safety Authority is obliged to bring a report on implementation to the Minister and thereafter to the Oireachtas annually. We are working on it at present.

Deputy Broughan also mentioned the issue of blood alcohol levels. At present, Ireland and the United Kingdom are the only two countries left in Europe with a level of 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres. The new road safety strategy states the level will be reduced and this has been approved by the Cabinet. The debate on reducing the level is over. The Road Safety Authority has asked for a short amount of time to complete some work. The work in question is not about going back to assess the impact of alcohol as there is no debate in this regard. As one moves away from a level of zero, small amounts of alcohol affect the ability to drive and use the road safely. We are looking into getting the right level for Ireland and issues such as whether we need different levels for different categories of road users. I refer, for example, to the aforementioned people who are most at risk such as new and inexperienced drivers. Equally important issues include the manner of roadside enforcement and the legislative requirements. Were we to rush out and declare the level was down, only to find subsequently that we could not enforce it on the roadside or lacked the requisite legislation, we would have scored an own goal in respect of road safety.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Is is likely there will be a lower level for younger drivers or for new drivers?

Mr. Noel Brett

I do not wish to pre-empt the work of the policy advisory panel to the Road Safety Authority and obviously the report must then be forwarded to the Minister. We are committed to bringing the report before the Minister by the end of March and I hope to see it going forward to legislation rapidly thereafter. Evidence from other jurisdictions indicates there are some advantages to having different levels for different risk groups. At present we are grappling with the issues of roadside enforcement and legislative approach. However we are on target to send a report to the Minister, which is important together with the work on speeding, drugs and other issues.

The literature will show, for example, that reducing the level from 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres to 50 milligrams per 100 millilitres will achieve a reduction in deaths and serious injuries in absolute terms. However, one also achieves a much greater culture shift with regard to people making personal decisions about their drinking and driving. It is important to state the Road Safety Authority is not a prohibitionist organisation. It is not anti-drink or opposed to the drinks industry but is against drinking and driving. We must bring these proposals back to the Minister as quickly as possible and put them on a legislative basis. Moreover our colleagues in the Garda Síochána must procure the necessary equipment and we must get rolling on it.

Unlike years ago, no one in Ireland remains unaware of the implications of drinking and driving and we have won that argument. It is known to be a danger across a 24-hour clock. Notwithstanding that, it is important to note that despite having a limit of 80 milligrams per 100 millilitres, I understand the Garda is detecting almost 400 people a week driving above that limit. That equates to 27,000 people since the introduction of mandatory testing and these cases have yet to come before the courts. People will begin to see cases involving the man or woman at the desk across from them at work or the person down the street coming through the courts and these are huge challenges.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I will try to address the general issues raised, including speed cameras and alcohol levels. I will begin with speed cameras. I understand that at the joint committee's request, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has provided members with a briefing note in this respect, which sets out the present position on speed cameras. The Garda Síochána was part of the project board chaired by representatives of the Department that oversaw the tendering process for the speed cameras. The board in turn made a recommendation for a preferred bidder which I forwarded to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I understand representatives from the Department will come before the joint committee next week to discuss this issue. I am given to understand by the Department that the matter must be brought back before the Cabinet and that the Minister will do that shortly. Essentially, from my perspective this is a matter for a policy decision at Government level.

In respect of speed cameras in general, they were only ever intended to be another aid to the enforcement of road safety by the Garda Síochána. I draw members' attention again to my opening statement, in which I stated that together with my colleagues, I am driving forward other technological issues such as the aforementioned Garda mobile speed detection vans, or GATSOs, and automatic number plate recognition, ANPR, which will have a major impact.

Chairman

The Commissioner should explain the terminology again.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

GATSOs are the Garda operated speed detection devices fitted in vehicles on the road, one in each region. As the technology was out of date, we are getting the vehicles refurbished and I intend to double the fleet. There are six such vehicles at present. Essentially, they provide opportunities for the Garda to detect speeding on the roads. The other innovation, which is in use in some other countries, is an automatic number plate reader system. Not alone does it provide the facility to detect speeding but it provides opportunities to link back to a database and tell the Garda Síochána immediately whether a vehicle is suspect or stolen, taxed or untaxed, insured or uninsured. This will enhance our capability on the road in respect of both speed enforcement and wider policing issues. I am driving ahead with this initiative at present, while the speed camera issue will be decided at Government level. I emphasise this is only one area in technology that will be used by or managed by the Garda Síochána. While it will be outsourced, the Garda Síochána will manage its operation and deployment. I will pick up on Deputy Broughan's points on deployment.

The topic under discussion today is enforcement and as the Deputy noted, my commitment is to deploy 1,200 people into the traffic corps by the end of this year. This is the maximum number I can afford to deploy and I will deliver on that commitment. As the Deputy stated the number has almost doubled since 2004. During my time as deputy commissioner — operations, I certainly pushed that along while working with the then Commissioner Conroy.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Will the officers in question be left on traffic duties? I presume they will not be pulled out of them when other emergencies arise.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

No, and this is not happening at present. They are devoted to traffic. However, this does not mean that such officers who are working outside a country town two miles from where a problem has arisen should not support their colleagues. I do not wish to state that a traffic garda will not do anything else. From my perspective as the Commissioner leading the force, particularly in respect of public order situations, we must have a wider picture. Apart from that exception, as far as I am concerned it is a dedicated traffic corps.

Deputy Broughan asked a question on deployment this morning. One also must remember that the Garda has both an enforcement role and a traffic management role and people were so deployed this morning. Undoubtedly my managers, chief superintendents and superintendents will take a lead in ensuring that the commercial interests of our towns and cities will be catered for in respect of traffic management. As everyone is aware, given the existing infrastructure and the congestion issues that arise, this also is quite a demanding role. We must remember that we have a dual role. That is why we are increasing the traffic corps complement to 1,200.

Deputy Shane McEntee

In any other country where speed cameras have been introduced, it is clear that road deaths have been reduced by 20%. Will the Commissioner recommend to the Government that speed cameras be introduced immediately?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I think I answered that question by saying that we were part of a project board. We saw it as another tool to enhance our overall capability and the project board selected a preferred bidder which I sent to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. The Department is now considering that.

Chairman

The departmental memorandum.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I do not have the departmental memorandum.

Deputy Áine Brady

I concur with the other speakers in commending the work carried out by the Garda Síochána in respect of road safety, in particular the fact that it is tackling the culture of speed which is a significant issue. I will not go over the ground covered by the other Deputies.

What is the Commissioner's opinion of off-road driving schools? I know Deputy McEntee has invited us to see the off-road driving school in his constituency. Thankfully, we will be getting one in Kildare. I believe every county should have at least one such school where our young people in particular, possibly students in transition year, can get driving practice and learn about road safety.

I know there is a full-time road safety officer in Kildare who is spectacularly busy. Does every county have a road safety officer? This is very important, particularly in respect of schools. There are many campaigns in my constituency, such as Walk to School on Wednesday, and parents constantly telephone me to complain that there is no safe way to walk to school. Obviously, this is an issue for the road safety officer. Parents are saying that their 10 and 11 year old children are embarrassed because their parents must walk with them to school because of the dangers of crossing at junctions, particularly in places like Celbridge. Are there road safety officers in every county? I commend the work carried out by our road safety officer in Kildare but it is very important that every county has one.

The roll-out of the interurban routes is very important in respect of safety. As Deputy Broughan noted, most accidents seem to happen on minor roads. At Kilcock, many cars and HGVs come off the motorway at that stage to avoid paying the toll. It appears that the percentage is high but I am not too sure of this. Can anything be done about that in terms of road safety?

Has there been any review of the effectiveness of the two plus one road network? I know there is one from Mallow to Cork city. This is the situation where no motorway is planned and people can overtake on a stretch of road. Has there been any review of improvements brought about by that system? I believe there is another one in Monaghan. Are there any plans to bring in more of those networks?

Has there been any review of how effective driving with dipped headlights is in terms of visibility?

Deputy Paul Connaughton

I welcome the delegation from the Garda Síochána and Mr. Brett to the meeting. This is a very good forum for this type of interaction and I hope it will be to our mutual benefit because the more information that is made known to the public, particularly on all the very important research that has been done, the better.

I will not go over all of the ground again. My first question is addressed to Mr. Brett. The interurban road I know best will run from Dublin to Galway when it is finalised. In respect of the fatigue factor on the road, I remember how I put it to the National Roads Authority a couple of months ago that it was my understanding that it was not building any rest stations on that roadway. I find that very difficult to understand. I am sure Mr. Brett has considerable interaction with both the Garda Síochána and the National Roads Authority. Would it not be simply remarkable if there were no rest stations on interurban roads because people who are getting tired and need the rest would need to go looking for some sort of access off the road? They might have to travel 10 km or 12 km to get back on the road again. Will Mr. Brett clarify whether this is true? If it is the case, it is clear that not everybody was listening to whatever discussions the relevant bodies were having.

My next question is a technical one for the Garda Commissioner. I remember sitting here for a few committee meetings in the past year or so. Will the Commissioner outline what the exact position is in respect of the Garda Síochána's guidance to its members on the ground in respect of alcohol testing at the roadside following fatal accidents? I understand that this has become part of the policy as enunciated by the Minister. A number of people have suggested to me that it is not as clear-cut as we thought it was here. We know that where the injured party is seriously injured and must be brought to hospital, it would be inappropriate to carry out an alcohol test for a variety of reasons. Can I take it that in every other situation, the drivers are tested for alcohol? It is a simple question and we would like to hear what direction was given and what is happening on the ground.

I do not think my final question was raised today. Could Mr. Brett give us some indication as to how the backlog in respect of driving tests for drivers on provisional licences is going? Will the backlog be cleared in June? Many of my constituents seem to be waiting forever to get a test. It will be March soon and June is coming down the line very quickly. Will we have another debacle in June like that we had some months ago?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

Deputy Connaughton raised a simple question to which there is a simple answer. The directions from the Garda Commissioner are that unless the circumstances pertaining in a particular case require otherwise, such as the need to render medical assistance, etc., as a matter of policy, the powers conferred under section 12(1) should be exercised in all instances where a garda is of the opinion that intoxicating liquor has been consumed or where a garda is of the opinion that the person in charge of the vehicle is or has, with the vehicle, been involved in a collision unless the garda is of the opinion that the person has not consumed intoxicating liquor.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

The Commissioner's reply contained the phrase "of the opinion", which is obviously the way that most of those things are done. Is that not slightly loose? Would it not be better to say that other than the factor of the patient being removed to hospital, it should be done?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

That is a legislative issue. I am going as far as is possible.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

Is the Commissioner saying that the legislation is not strong enough to back up anything other than an opinion?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I am not saying that. I am merely saying exactly what the legislation says and what the instructions of the Garda Commissioner were. Along with the previous Commissioner, I was responsible for drafting this to ensure our people were doing precisely what the Deputy suggests we should do, arising from the enactment of the legislation at the time.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

I assume the Commissioner does not have the figures with him but could he provide us with figures to give us an indication of the number of accidents where testing took place and the number of accidents where it did not take place?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

It would take a considerable amount of research to do that. It is my policy as Commissioner to ensure that, with the exceptions I have set out, this happens. I want my people to do it and, as instructed, they are doing so.

Chairman

What of the other questions?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

They are relevant to Mr. Brett.

Mr. Noel Brett

To revert to Deputy Brady's opening questions on off-road driving schools, I have met the promoters of the centres in Kildare, Meath and one other location a number of times.

Chairman

I take it that the other location is Galway.

Mr. Noel Brett

There is a simulator in Galway, not an off-road centre. Deputy Brady is referring to physical, practical driving in an off-road compound. I have met those involved in the Galway simulator.

Chairman

Mr. Brett might discuss the simulator also.

Mr. Noel Brett

People are designing off-road facilities on three acres or four acres to recreate real world conditions such as roundabouts, hill starts and so on in which to teach. This is a useful addition to formal driving tuition, as the more people's skills are honed the better they are when using the road.

Better off-road facilities across Europe possess skid pans and can simulate activities that one could not possibly do on a road, such as how to respond in a skid, how to deal with aquaplaning, how to do emergency stops and so on, events that we can all encounter. Experienced drivers and not just novices would benefit from these simulations. The ability to practice and to see how things happen would benefit everyone greatly. It is too late when one is in a skid or someone is approaching sideways to try to put theory into practice.

The RSA does not support the teaching of people to drive before the age of 17 years when they can hold a learner permit. Our training and education strategy is to have people leave testing centres with their driver theory tests passed and their learner permits in their pockets by the time they have finished the leaving certificate, transition year or, if they are not in school, the Youthreach programme or have gone through Traveller training centres. We would prefer them to do their practical driver training on the road predominantly and under the auspices of an approved driving instructor covering a set syllabus. Off-road facilities would be of considerable benefit.

We are trying to change the way drivers are trained, tested and licensed and to get people into formal tuition with approved instructors covering a compulsory syllabus and engaged with proper supervision. Given our current cohort of road users, the situation is daunting. Before 1964, there was no driving test and one bought one's licence. A number of people got their licences without being tested during the 1978 amnesty. Currently, 426,000 people are driving on learner permits. The tapestry is not good, for which reason we are keen to try to use interventions to change 40 years of over-reliance and to ensure that the next generation of road users is fit for purpose. Perhaps they will teach another way to those of us who have been out there for a while. The reduction in the number of deaths and serious injuries among young drivers during the past two years is reassuring. They comprise the main group of reductions, but the older and middle-aged group is not experiencing the same reduction.

Every local authority has a designated road safety officer. Unfortunately, only a few are full-time, dedicated and trained. Some have other duties. The RSA brings all of the road safety officers together quarterly to provide them with training and materials and to try to tie in their work. It is critical that there are road safety officers at local authority level. Like local authority members, officers are in touch with the communities and know the issues. When delivering our national programmes, they can translate them to make them more effective locally. We would like every local authority to have a full-time road safety officer who would focus within the authority as well as without. Local authorities are among the largest fleet operators and are involved in road building, design and maintenance.

Road safety officers provide a good opportunity to tie in public education. We must be present in pre-schools and primary and secondary schools. This year, we want to be in the workplace and at third level because that is where we can change people. The RSA has junior and senior cycle programmes at primary and secondary levels and we started working with the Union of Students of Ireland this year to get into third level colleges. We are involved with Youthreach and Traveller education centres.

Under the new road safety strategy, every school is obliged to include road safety as part of its school safety plan. Many issues in the towns, villages and communities relate to parents' behaviour around schools. Everyone wants to drop little Johnny, for example, up to the door. Children do not cycle or walk to school any longer. We want every school and parents' council to work on getting-to-school-safely plans. There are examples of this, such as children walking to school on Wednesdays in the Deputy's constituency. There are several examples of a walking school bus, that is, local parents taking turns to walk young people to school safely. We want parents to walk routes with their children to ensure the latter are competent. We will do our piece in terms of training cycling proficiency, but we will not achieve it without the involvement of parents and schools. We want to do more in that regard.

Deputy Brady asked about avoiding tolls, particularly by heavy goods vehicles. This is an issue to which there may be several solutions. Were there no toll, people might use the road. Failing that, local authorities have powers to adopt by-laws on weight restrictions, axle numbers and so on. This appears to work well in Dublin and the quays are a better place to drive than previously. Where appropriate, I would like local authorities to adopt by-laws on weights, speeds and so on to try to encourage people on to high-quality inter-urban routes. The safest roads on which to drive are the motorways and dual carriageways where drivers are not mixing with vulnerable road users, namely, children, pedestrians and cyclists, and do not face oncoming traffic. We need to avoid head-on collisions, the most serious type. We would support local by-laws or incentives to get vehicles on to the inter-urban routes.

Regarding two plus one roads, the National Roads Authority and not the RSA has a role in road building, design or maintenance. The NRA has several successful pilot projects, such as the Piltown-Fiddown route. Similar projects in Sweden were successful. From my discussions with the NRA, I understand that the marginal cost of the extra lane — going from two plus one to two plus two — is not significant and that it may be better to aim for a dual carriageway as opposed to a two plus one route. This is not my area of expertise.

Chairman

Is the slow driver who hogs the road not a menace and cause of trouble given the line of traffic that forms behind a truck or learner driver who could easily pull over to the hard shoulder of a major road to enable traffic to pass? When such does not occur, cars pass when they should not, for which there is no excuse. Given that, in law, one cannot drive on the hard shoulder, there must be an improvement in road design to allow traffic at intervals to overtake a driver travelling at 40 kph.

Mr. Noel Brett

Road user behaviour can contribute to driver frustration. From my experience of driving to and from the west, one looks for an opportunity to progress when stuck behind a vehicle. People not maintaining reasonable progress on the road is an issue with which the Garda deals on occasion. We must provide places at which people can overtake safely and, as the Deputy stated, the two plus one approach is an ideal way of doing so.

The bigger issue is getting people to understand their responsibilities on the road. If we consider the profile of drivers, many had not encountered a motorway, roundabout, dual carriageway or many of the more complex situations until recently. The situation in towns and villages has changed significantly in recent years due to bypasses and ringroads. There are issues.

People must understand the implications of their behaviour on roads. As with speeding, there is a problem with people causing obstruction. For example, queues of traffic can form behind people in tractors towing large loads. The Commissioner discussed the Garda's role in traffic movement and road safety. The required approach is two-pronged. The infrastructure must be right, but it can only operate correctly when the people behind the wheel are switched on, know what they are doing and take responsibility. If one is towing a trailer, the old-fashioned courtesy of pulling over every now and again seems to have vanished. We must get away from this type of arrogance on the road and revert to plain courtesy and understanding.

Regarding daytime running lights or dipped headlights, it was scary to see people driving with no lights or only parking lights in the recent foggy weather. We want to see daytime running lights or dipped headlights at all times. Inevitably, it will save lives. There are environmental concerns in terms of emissions but on balance the more visible people are, the greater chance pedestrians and other road users have. There are moves at European level to make this compulsory. We have asked people to use dipped headlights in our publicity campaigns. In rural and urban settings it will save lives and I would like to see it made compulsory.

Deputy Connaughton referred to driver fatigue. I drive the same roads and I agree it is an issue. It is not just driver fatigue, there is also the matter of being able to stop to take a phone call, use a toilet, change driver or have a rest. We have seen fatalities at the side of the road where the survival time when you stop to take care of a sick child or a child who needs to go to the toilet is very low. The board of the RSA considered the matter of whether these areas should be fitted on the new inter-urban routes. We wrote to the National Roads Authority and received a reply last week, enclosing a map of areas in which serviced rest areas will be provided. I have asked about unserviced rest areas.

An issue of concern as I drive around the country is that traditional lay-bys used by trucks have been closed off by bollards. Truck drivers and other drivers are struggling and we need areas where people can stop safely.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

It is not a question of space. There is plenty of space available, which should be utilised.

Mr. Noel Brett

We want to see safe and appropriate areas for going to the toilet or changing a wheel to get people off the edge of the carriageway. In the UK it is estimated that one's survival time on the edge of a motorway before being rear-ended is less than ten minutes. We are changing our network, as the earlier slide showing that we have 94% regional and local roads suggests. We are building more inter-urban motorways and dual carriageways, putting people who are not trained or who have little experience on these roads. The hard shoulder is not a safe place to be and in fog or adverse weather conditions other drivers will instinctively follow the red lights of someone stopped on a motorway. People follow a car onto the hard shoulder and rear-end it. I share Deputy Connaughton's concerns about the need to have regular, appropriate, safe serviced and unserviced areas. Where such areas exist in towns and villages I would like to see them re-opened. There are local issues that explain why gantries are in place but we must balance local issues with safety. We need a place to use the road safely.

I augment the Commissioner's comments on testing at the scenes of collisions. In the road safety strategy, action No. 75 refers to reviewing the current legislation for impaired driving, identifying best practice internationally and ensuring appropriate legislation and protocols to address the testing of road users involved in collisions. The Department of Transport is the lead on this and my understanding is that it will include this in a new road traffic Bill.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The Minister undertook to do that.

Mr. Noel Brett

From our point of view, when the collision has happened it is too late but the deterrent factor is significant. If I am sitting drinking alcohol and contemplating getting into a car, I must deal with the possibility of encountering a garda who might stop me and form an opinion, the possibility of a mandatory alcohol checkpoint and the possibility that if I am involved in a collision I will be compulsorily tested with a breathalyser. This is a major deterrent, another weapon in the arsenal to change the culture. Even if no one is injured it changes the culture. The Commissioner has gone as far as he can under current legislation and I would like to see this new Bill so that the test is mandatory, except where there is a threat to life and limb or a senior doctor objects. I expect to see the Bill published very quickly because it is a major deterrent.

I refer to Deputy Connaughton's question on learner drivers. I have tried to cover it in the overview in the submission to the committee. Before the October bank holiday weekend there were 122,460 people driving on provisional licences. The new learner permit was introduced that weekend. The requirement for the 120,000 second provisional licence holders to be accompanied by an experienced driver has been deferred until 30 June. That was the right thing to do, given the response and the implications.

The RSA has taken a number of steps. The first is that the 122,460 drivers are to be tested by March. We are ahead of schedule in that regard and will deliver. We have increased our compliment and SGS, the contractor, has completed its recruitment process and will supply 157 testers alongside the 121 in the RSA. Today, there are 15,600 people who will not sit the test because they keep deferring. Some are legitimate because they are out of the country and ask if they can sit it when they return at Christmas. However, many state that they are not available. They are allowed to defer three times and if someone is out of the country we will put them forward again. That weekend, we prioritised those on the waiting list and started a new list for those who applied after that point. In that process of data clean-up, we discovered many people who were incorrectly entered and are not available. With our capacity, we will beat the March deadline.

The second commitment was that all of those on second provisional licences who applied would be offered a test by the end of June. We are tracking those and will deliver on it. The bigger question is having ten weeks available to people at the end of June. I am comfortable that we will do this. Our capacity will shortly be at 11,000 tests per week. This gets people to focus on their driving and, while it is painful and has discommoded people, when this is completed we will have addressed and turned around the 40 year reliance. There are 119 testers now and 157 from SGS will begin shortly. Our staff are doing phenomenal work, testing on the weekends and at evenings. A cohort of my staff have agreed to work Good Friday and Easter Monday, which will deliver 2,000 tests. Week on week, we exceed what we had planned to do so we are confident that we will deliver on commitments. I hope it will turn around the culture and reliance on provisional licences.

Deputy Michael Kennedy

I welcome the delegation. I have examined the matter of saliva testing on the Victoria website. I have no doubt this is the way forward, not just in terms of the motor detection system of drugs, which is a major issue. A substantial proportion of drivers are driving with drugs as well as alcohol in their bodies. The test would have a benefit when people are brought to hospital because staff know immediately that they are dealing with drugs. We must push forward with legalising this device.

How many of the approximately 200,000 offences detected at speed checks were on major roads and dual carriageways? A complaint made to me by members of the public is that sometimes the gardaí seem to be shooting fish in a bowl. The Stillorgan Road opposite the Montrose Hotel is a 60 km/h zone, a speed limit which many people consider to be far lower than it should be. Many people get caught there. I come in to the city from the north side and recently, I noticed a garda in a 50 km/h zone near the Point Depot. This is unnecessary given the high proportion of accidents and fatalities on minor roads. We should examine this closely.

I congratulate the RSA on its television ads. The Australians go in for a more gruesome type of advertisement with blood and gore. We must shock people into believing that speeding and drink driving cause serious accidents and injury. I recommend we investigate this more.

I welcome the new provision whereby cameras in Garda cars will be able to read a vehicle's licence plate as undoubtedly this will help. Barrier-free tolling will be introduced on the M50. Given the high proportion of people driving with no tax or insurance can we extend the use of these cameras to identify these vehicles? It would be of great benefit. In the overall context, those not paying tax or insurance do not contribute to the Motor Insurance Bureau, which has annual costs of €50 million. Substantial savings could be made.

I welcome the new regulations for driver instructor testing. A number of representations have been made to me from people engaged in this business for more than 20 years. They completed substantial testing in the UK. However, they will not be accepted as legitimate driving instructors. Is it possible to accommodate them? One gentlemen told me he instructed some of the people who will be engaged as instructors. It seems ludicrous that people in the business for a long time and who run good driving schools must now be excluded from the system.

Chairman

I will invite Assistant Commissioner Rock and Chief Superintendent O'Brien to contribute as they are at the coal face. I ask committee members to be brief in their questions as we are gone over time.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Much of what I wish to pursue has already been covered and I will confine my contribution to a few comments. I thank the Garda Síochána and Mr. Brett for their presentations. Their collective strategy is about changing driver behaviour. In terms of enforcement issues, much of it is about high visibility and we have a Garda presence on the roads with the most vehicles as opposed to where most accidents occur. This is understandable because it is not possible to be at every crossroads or on the network of byroads where many weekend accidents occur. This makes the matter a driver behaviour issue.

I am anxious to hear the comments of the gardaí present on how they propose to interface with the education system. The statistics produced by the Commissioner show the greatest amount of accidents involve people between the ages of 16 and 25. People starting to drive are not as aware or intelligent of road safety issues as they should be. Since this is the cohort involved in most accidents it is critical the greatest attention is focused here. It is fertile ground for saving lives with regard to observance of the rules of the road and driving standards.

An excellent job has been done on the culture of drink driving. I am not as convinced as others of the benefits of reducing the blood alcohol limit from 0.8 to 0.5. Are statistics available on apprehended people who were between these levels?

Taking up the point of Deputy Connaughton on fatigue on the roads and the provision of rest areas, I raised this matter with the committee approximately five years ago. At the time, the NRA was dismissive. Subsequently, changes have been made but not to the extent I would like to see or, from what he stated, which Mr. Brett would like to see. I suggest as a matter of priority that the committee addresses this issue through bringing the NRA before it on this specific matter. It is clear that it is as major problem and I encounter it on a weekly basis.

Chairman

The NRA has been before the committee with regard to a number of issues.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is fair enough but this specific matter is one on which we can force action. I understand a decision was taken by the Minister for Transport at the time to move on this issue. It is not acceptable that roads are opened but the NRA leaves this matter to commercial interests off-road and at junctions.

Speed cameras will be helpful but I am not sure it will provide the level of success suggested by Deputy Broughan and others. This is all about driver behaviour and cameras are only part of the solution. Certain people who speed know where the cameras are located, they make the same journeys every day and they will succeed in avoiding detection. I am interested to hear what the Commissioner will state with regard to on-board technology in Garda cars.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

With regard to Deputy Kennedy's question on testing, we have thrashed it out here and Mr. Brett spoke about it at length.

In principle, I am in favour of technology and aids to support our work, help save lives on the road and prevent trauma and despair. I stated it is not without its complexities. Considerable research must be done and I asked Assistant Commissioner Rock to work with Mr. Noel Brett on this matter.

It is not the first time I have been asked about gardaí shooting fish in a bowl. I will address it by giving the committee an idea of where speeding detections take place. It is important to remember that in 2007, only 2% of speed detections were made in 120 km/h zones and 19.8% of speed detections were made in 100 km/h zones, or national roads. I can give the committee other statistics but I do not wish to bore members. The point I wish to make is on the small number of detections made in these speed zones. Traditionally, we have been accused of shooting fish in a barrel and focusing on soft targets. More than 80% of the detections were made and prosecuted in circumstances where the driver in question was more than 20 km/h above the speed limit, in the 120 km/h to 141 km/h plus range. It is important to remember that.

I do not have a policy of revenue collection or shooting fish in a barrel. I want my people out there, and for this I make no apology, targeting the areas that research indicates must be targeted. We are trying to inform ourselves with research to ensure we are putting our people — of whom there will be 1,200 by the end of the year, which is an enormous commitment — in the right places to prevent deaths on the road by enforcing the speeding regulations.

With regard to the M50 and non-Irish nationals, I have spoken previously about the automatic number plate reading system, ANPR. There are issues that must be thrashed out with the insurance companies in terms of the information that must be supplied to our database and the research that can be done. My policy in this area is that we will target right across the board, both Irish and non-Irish nationals, as the case may be. Whoever is committing offences, the Garda Síochána will be there, detecting those offences and prosecuting with a view to deterrence.

With the Chairman's permission, I will ask my colleague, Assistant Commissioner Rock, to deal with the issue of the interface with the education system.

Chairman

If the Commissioner does not mind, I was going to invite Assistant Commissioner Rock to speak at the end, given that he is the man at the coalface and can comment on many issues. He is an expert in the field and very highly regarded.

Deputy Frank Feighan

I also welcome Commissioner Murphy, thank him for an excellent presentation and wish him well in his appointment. I thank him for all the work he has done over many years.

I do not want to revisit issues that have been raised but I wish to focus on the issue of drug driving. I was in Australia 23 years ago and saw the drink bus, or the booze bus as it was called. On my return I realised we had a very chequered history regarding our attitudes to road safety and drink driving. Concern centred on losing one's licence or on one's insurance premium going up rather than on saving lives. We need vigilance and discipline in approaching the issue but we have come a long way in that regard.

Does the Commissioner agree that many driving deaths are suicides? I know it would be very difficult to put a figure on that, but if one accepts that some are suicides, would they be as a result of drink or drug abuse? I note there were 218 drug-driving offences compared with 18,821 for drink driving. That is 100 times less. We can do a lot better on detecting drug driving. I appreciate there is a debate about saliva tests and so forth, but could we not have a drug bus on main roads at night time? How were the 218 drug-driving offences detected? Was it as a result of collisions or through programmes such as Operation Anvil where known drug dealers and organised criminals were targeted?

We must attack the drug-driving phenomenon. Much more must be done because my gut feeling is that it is widespread. I come from a rural area where it is prevalent, and I am sure it is much more so in urban areas. That must be tackled immediately.

When there are accidents, fatal or otherwise, the roads are now closed by gardaí. When did that policy begin? I am sure there are very good operational reasons for it but I ask the Commissioner to outline why roads are closed now. I reiterate that much more must be done on the issue of drug driving.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I welcome Mr. Noel Brett, Commissioner Murphy and his colleagues, commend them on their work on road safety and acknowledge the progress that has been made to date. Is Mr. Brett satisfied we are now collecting sufficient data from the scene of accidents? I note his comments about the CT68 form, which is now reported to him in the Road Safety Authority and also his references to the new collision facts booklet. Is he satisfied, however, we are getting enough information on issues such as the approximate speed involved in accidents, road conditions, weather conditions, alcohol levels, where appropriate and so forth? The forthcoming Bill will make a contribution to that. It is important such information is compiled for the purposes of research. We understand the key determinants of accidents, namely, speed, alcohol, fatigue and so forth, but some more specific issues must also be detailed for the purpose of further research which can inform our policies in future.

Mr. Brett in his report addressed the issue of non-national drivers. I note from the Commissioner's report that of the 33 road deaths up to 5 February this year, seven were of non-nationals, representing more than 20%, which is disproportionate relative to the number of non-nationals driving in this country. It is a problem area. I have heard concerns expressed in my community about the road behaviour of some non-national drivers. I do not want to stereotype people any more than he does but I ask the Commissioner, in terms of enforcement, if he could clarify the issue concerning tax, insurance and the documentation non-national drivers are asked to produce. What is the enforcement capacity of the Garda Síochána, given language difficulties and so forth? I am aware there is a problem regarding the application of penalty points to drivers who have a non-Irish licence. I ask the Commissioner to comment on the matter because it is important the Road Safety Authority continues to target resources, as it is doing, in terms of providing awareness and training programmes in foreign languages. It is an issue which should be kept under constant review.

I note 426,000 people are on learner permits at the moment. There will be a difficulty when the new system comes into operation on 1 July. There is a cohort of people on their third, fourth and subsequent learner permits. There are approximately 30,000 people over 50 years of age who hold a learner permit and possibly more than 60,000 people who are on a fourth or subsequent permit. Many of those people are afraid to sit the driving test because they believe they will not pass it. What steps can the RSA take to assist such people to get through the process? I do not believe there should be a separate process for them but wonder if there is any practical assistance we can provide to them.

I compliment the gardaí in my area. I live in Carrigaline and they have been especially active in terms of road safety in the school environment, including circulating a note to every parent who has a child attending local schools about parking and the correct procedures for getting to school. As has been said, many parents want to bring their children right to the front door. The garda has been very active on this issue, including being present on the ground and I wish to acknowledge that.

Mr. Noel Brett

I will address Deputy Feighan's questions first. I could not agree with him more regarding learning from elsewhere. We can learn a great deal from places such as Victoria, Australia. Seeing the systems in such places and talking to people at the front end who make them work can be very helpful for those involved in passing legislation and devising policy. We deal with issues up front rather than grabbing ideas and trying to make them work in Ireland without thinking them through.

There is much to be gained from spending time at the roadside or on the booze bus and seeing how measures work before introducing legislation. I agree, therefore, that we should not always try to reinvent the wheel. We can learn from good examples elsewhere and if they work we should modify them for our purposes. It is a worthwhile exercise for members to spend their time investigating these issues and speaking to their opposite numbers elsewhere.

Some research has been carried out on suicides, although questions have been raised about reliability. The proportion may be as high as 3% in some instances of single vehicle collisions. It is not an issue we like to highlight because of the copycat phenomenon in suicide. In school settings, for example, suicides often occur serially. From a road safety point of view, we do not want to publicise this as an option for people. Only in situations where a suicide note is found is it possible for the Garda to be certain because there could be many other reasons for the collision. In Ireland last year, 100 more people died of suicide than were killed on our roads.

The person with the most information on the issue of drug testing in Ireland is Professor Denis Cusack at the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. He would be competent to advise the committee on proper testing and emerging technologies, handheld and otherwise.

In regard to Deputy Finian McGrath's comments, I am satisfied with the data I get from the Garda Síochána. PULSE and CT-68 data are supplied in a timely manner and their quality is high.

In regard to road closures for forensic collision investigations, when that system has been in operation for five or six years and we have more forensic information, I suspect the picture will be very different in terms of what is happening on our roads. It is important that we do not run with one year's worth of data because statistical reliability is necessary. Much research remains to be done in that area but if the co-operation I received thus far continues, we will have access to the data in due course.

One in ten of the population and one in eight of the workforce is a member of a minority ethnic community. There is a phenomenon in road safety called transference, according to which people try to blame others. A group of young men might claim to be great drivers and blame old people for driving too slowly, whereas older people blame young male drivers. Similarly, people cast blame on members of minority ethnic communities. Of the 25 people killed in January, few were members of minority communities and very few non-Irish registered cars are involved in fatal collisions. We need to educate the entire community, including non-Irish members in particular, followed by which rigorous enforcement should affect everybody.

The appendix sets out the number of cases in which penalty points could not be applied because of a lack of licence information. That is a worrying situation. During the 12 years I spent in the UK it was great to have an Irish licence. The same phenomenon occurs here. Systems such as automatic number plate recognition will help us in weeding out this type of person but the quicker we develop a system for mutual recognition of disqualifications, the better because they involve the most dangerous people, particularly in the context of the Border. We could subsequently develop a system for mutual recognition of penalty points but these systems have to be developed throughout Europe. It must be soul destroying for a garda to detect a person but be unable to do anything about it. The deterrent has to be felt by everybody and if issues arise in terms of penalty points on licences, another approach could be taken such as bail bonds or fines. If one drives in Spain, for example, one must carry a bail bond. We should stand back and learn rather than try to flog the matter to death. If we hit a barrier on an issue like penalties we could look for another tool.

In regard to those who may find the driver test to be difficult, 29,000 people in this country are driving on a fifth or subsequent provisional licence. Many are middle aged or older, although I do not want to stereotype such people because I am aware of an 82-year old who passed the driving test on the first attempt. I heard her on the radio advising people to get on with it. The challenge to the Road Safety Authority is avoiding compromising the integrity of the test while making it as accessible and friendly as possible.

With regard to the theory test, we have a system in place that aids people who cannot read or are intimidated by the computer screen with someone who can read the questions aloud to them. We want to demystify the process and we are happy to work with any community group with a view to letting people see the system because it is daunting for somebody who never worked with computers to do a theory test on a touch screen. We want to bring people through the system rather than create yellow pack drivers who cannot pass their tests. The challenge to my organisation is making the test as fair and free as possible. We are currently inquiring from some of the older people's organisations as to whether it would be acceptable or politically correct for the RSA to write to everybody on our list over the age of 65 to find out what we can do to help, such as providing a supervisor or allowing more time. Our intention is, again, to reduce the stress of the process particularly for those who failed on three or more occasions. Our business is getting people through the test without dropping the standard and it should not be a difficult process. In November we produced a leaflet explaining the test which we sent to all learner permit holders because a lot of people do not know what they are about to face in the test. They are thus doomed to fail because they are so stressed. We have also published the procedures for conducting the test and the marking guidelines. That also demystifies the system.

In regard to the approved driving instructor issue, we carried out a public consultation process in 2006 and published the resulting document. We are now responsible for regulating the driving instruction industry. Existing driving instructors have been given a temporary permit lasting 18 months by which time they have to meet the standard. To meet the standard, they can either submit to a three part exam comprising a theory test, a practical driving test and a test of their instructing abilities, or they can submit their prior accredited learning by portfolio. If they have qualifications of the same or higher standards from a proper accrediting body, they will receive credit for them. It is not in my interest to make it difficult for driving instructors because they are the building blocks of the system. This backlog will pass, after which we will need driving instructors to deliver the next phase in schools. The recent media controversy involved one group which tried to get an automatic pass for all its members, which is simply not possible. They have to submit their individual portfolios but people with good qualifications from Ireland or elsewhere will have no difficulty and we will bend over backwards to facilitate them.

Chairman

We welcome the initiatives to make testing easier for older people and those who failed on a number of occasions.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Is that the present position?

Mr. Noel Brett

Yes. If people contact my staff directly we will facilitate them. We have facilitated people who had particular ability issues. A number of people asked not to have male testers because of past experiences. We will try to get people through without dropping the standard.

Chairman

A more humane face in respect of people who face challenges in sitting the test is certainly welcome.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I welcome the Garda Commissioner and his officials and Mr. Brett. The Motor Insurance Bureau of Ireland estimated in a submission it made to the Department of Transport that there are 100,000 uninsured drivers on our roads. I particularly welcome the Garda Commissioner's commitment to bring in the technology in real time to catch those as quickly as possible. The document reports 85% of out-of-State drivers have insurance but 15% do not, and that is much higher than the national average of 6% for in-State drivers. I agree with Deputy Michael McGrath and other people; this is not a question of targeting a specific person or persons. However, there is a significant issue with uninsured driving, particularly with out-of-State drivers.

It troubles many people, and I am trying to understand it, that penalty points cannot be applied to 126,000 people because they have no driving licences. The evidence is that a significant number of those are in the country and are Irish drivers, not out-of-State drivers. The statistics are very serious. Of those who have no driving licence, 6,400 have been caught with no insurance, 9,400 were driving without seat belts, 3,000 were driving while using a mobile telephone, 1,600 skipped traffic lights and 96,000 were caught speeding. There is a serious issue on these 126,000 people. With respect and in a positive and constructive way, perhaps at a future meeting the Garda Commissioner could return to us with a new way of identifying these people and targeting them in a specific way. This could mean out-of-State drivers get their bail bond or that we as legislators must tackle this issue seriously. Without a driving licence one is more than likely to be in this serious, significant category of multiple offences. I presume the lack of a licence was identified because of other matters that brought these people to the attention of the Garda.

I fully support the Garda in everything it does. My next point is not a criticism of the Garda but of the system. Gardaí have no lee-way in this. Those who do not pay their fixed penalty charge must go to court, even if they want to pay after receiving their summonses. As politicians we have not created a system that allows one to pay after the 56 days, which is the most sensible way to deal with it. From 1 January to 30 June 2007, 88,000 cases were going through the courts and it was estimated that another 20,000 were on their way. The courts are being made inefficient by this issue. More significant, of the 88,000 who went to court because they had not paid their fixed penalties, only 14,000 received fines. In a significant number of cases, almost 44,000, the documents had not been served. In today's newspaper there was a small sidebar telling that three motorists in a part of Ireland swore in the District Court that they were not served with the documents. We do not expect the Garda to serve all these summonses. It is a serious issue and puts appalling pressure on the Garda and the system while offenders get away with it. Some pay their penalty fine, but those who do not take it on the chin will probably get away with it. It is not the Garda Commissioner's role to comment on the political side of it, but I ask him to address these serious issues.

Deputy McEntee mentioned the speed cameras. I read in the newspapers that the chairman of the Road Safety Authority, Mr. Gay Byrne, said he would resign and then I read that he would not. I have only read what he said in the press. Although it is a political decision, Mr. Brett can tell me exactly his position on speed cameras. We want clarity on this. I do not know what is going on. Could Mr. Brett clarify that?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I will ask the Assistant Commissioner, Mr. Rock to answer those questions because he has been instrumental in rolling out the FCPS system.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

I will address various points first and then finish with the fixed charge system. The issue of the young people—

Chairman

Senator Buttimer has a quick question.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I will not repeat Deputy O'Dowd's question. I have a question for Mr. Brett on the public awareness campaign. There is an inordinate number of young people on our roads. I note his report and compliment him on it. In seeking to enhance ways of attracting young people to his advertising campaigns he has missed the wider picture on new Internet platforms such as Bebo, Facebook and YouTube. I encourage him to use those to engage with young people. I compliment the gardaí on their good work. I agree with Deputy Michael McGrath, and in Cork with Superintendents Gerard Dillane and Barry McPolan we have two fine police officers who do a good job on road safety and enhancement of you roads. The document reports 36% of primary and 24% of secondary school children do not wear seat belts. While speed may not be involved in going to school, that is a large number of people not wearing seat belts. Do we have regular checks of seat belts in the busy commute hours?

Chairman

For a second I thought the two parochial Cork men were going to mention Cork football.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

I will address the issue on young people, changing driver behaviour, the 28 days and 56 days fixed charge notice and then the seat belts. We all know the difficulty in communicating with young people. There was a bad collision in which five young people were killed and a week later in another part of the country we found people of the same age group who were not aware of it. That is the difficulty we face. We have a four-pronged approach in trying to engage with young people. We employ a professional actor to put messages on YouTube to try to get into the young people's psyche. That is important because many do not read, and the "Nine O'Clock" news and people of my age group talking does not engage them. We also target them through the schools and colleges, as those are the people who will drive in three or four years time. We are engaged with them through talking to schools, colleges and community groups and we have a package to help people locally. We have a CD being reviewed and that will be good. Some time last year we drove forward an initiative to get our people out to talk to the young people, engage with them face to face and try to show them the folly of their ways including dangerous overtaking, spinning around and the sort of driving boy racers do. Importantly, we are engaged with the Road Safety Authority, which is in control of developing a comprehensive, education strategy involving the Departments of Education and Science, Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform as well as the Garda Síochána to prepare a formalised education system in the schools.

Drink driving behaviour has changed significantly. There is no doubt that we will see a significant reduction in the average alcohol levels in the next year when we receive the research results from the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. Spinning from the Government's strategy, I am engaged and have my people engaged with the other stakeholders in trying to change driver behaviour on speed and seat belts. The Garda Síochána is the lead agency in this. I take the point on young children in back seats. We are engaged at the intercept point with people in breach of the speed regulations, the majority of which are over 20km, as the Commissioner said. I would like to see — and it is being progressed — something like a business card that would have on one side the dangers of not being belted up, and some catchy phrase about loving one's children and not putting safety belts on them.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

It would have to be the right belt.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

The other side will outline, among other issues, the dangers of speed and its increased risk. That again will raise public awareness. When a card is given out to people stopped in cars, some people read it and some throw it away. We are trying to engage people.

The fixed charge system has always been a burning issue. We are restricted by legislation on the 28-day and 56-day period and if the fine is not paid by then, we cannot accept it. A judge in court cannot accept payment of that fine either. That has caused significant angst among otherwise law-abiding people who for whatever reason try to pay only after the 56 days have passed.

We recently posted an explanation on our website, although it is difficult to explain the matter in short words. We have placed extensive correspondence on our website and it is mentioned on the bottom of the fixed charge notice that people can go to the website and see all the issues which arise. People can figure out what to do if they were in America or if their aunt was away or sick, for example, and whether the period could be extended.

On direction from my Commissioner, I spoke recently to a judge in a particular court. He has expressed the view to us about the courts which has been mentioned here. We all thought that with the fixed charge system, the work of the courts would be reduced but our enforcement has increased so much, the courts are getting extra work. We must look to a system where people can get one further opportunity because it crystallises the mind when people get a summons.

It has been suggested by those involved in the matter and those working in the courts in particular that there possibly could be a ten-day window to give people an opportunity to pay the fine in court before the summons becomes active. That would reduce significantly the work of the courts and the hours we spend in court. The Commissioner has mentioned the visibility issue and the significant amount of time we spend in court in respect of all prosecutions where the fixed charge is not paid.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

There is the issue that of the 88,000, 43,000 were deemed not to have been served. How is that issue to be tackled? That is 50% of them. I am looking at this from the perspective of a person who will get away with it.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

A high proportion would be along the Border area where cars are detected and they go back across into the North of Ireland, for example. The Deputy mentioned foreign drivers. I have looked at those trends and the proportion is highest in those demographics.

No more than all the other problems we have addressed this morning, that matter does not solely pertain here. The foreign drivers issue must be addressed on a pan-European basis, and my Commissioner has told me many times before to address it that way. All those issues are not solely our problem and they stretch across borders, frontiers and international lines.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Is it possible to get county by county statistics on that?

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

I would have to think about that. I am sure they can be retrieved and the best way to get them probably is through the courts system and the Department of Transport. We will look at the matter and come back to the Deputy.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

It seems there must be a significant cohort who must not be out of State and who live in the Twenty-six Counties.

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

Yes, or people may have moved address or emigrated. There is an almost inexhaustible number of reasons for the problem. Having said that, I accept the point being made.

Chairman

The witness made an interesting comment on the five young people tragically killed, as another group of young people did not know about it shortly afterwards. If there was one key message to be given out, especially to young drivers, what would it be?

Assistant Commissioner Eddie Rock

The key message to give out is that enforcement is increasing. I know we are not putting out enforcement to catch them but we can advise and caution all we like, which we do. At the end of the day, it comes down to serious enforcement. We will engage in whatever way we can but from our perspective, which the Commissioner has mentioned many times, enforcement is our responsibility. We address other issues but to get the behaviour of people, and young people in particular, to change, they need to see friends being caught if they overtake dangerously, for example. Such breaches must be prosecuted.

If we want to reduce the number of deaths on the road we must do that. The speed issue is pertinent to young people and we will enforce the law in a significant manner with respect to those issues.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

From my perspective, there are issues. Driver behaviour is a major example but there is also social responsibility. People must take responsibility for their actions. I have listened with interest to the issue of the box of prescribed drugs with the warning not to drive if on that medication. I will not give a medical view but people must take those warnings on board and heed them.

We will do our part and I am committed to this. I am not making such a statement in any kind of an abject way. I am putting 1,200 people into the traffic corps and we will do our part on the enforcement side but people must accept responsibility.

I want to ensure safer communities and in this regard, communities must work together. For me, that would be key message.

Chairman

Before I let Mr. Brett finish, I will give Chief Superintendent O'Brien an opportunity to speak. I know he is a very experienced man so perhaps he will make a comment.

Chief Superintendent Declan O’Brien

The Commissioner and Assistant Commissioner have addressed all the issues. I will mention one issue raised by Deputy Feighan, namely, forensic collision investigation and the reason roads are closed. There are a number of contributory factors to this.

Before forensic collision investigation begins, the primary responsibility is to ensure those who are injured are treated and removed from the scene as quickly as possible. The road is going to be closed for that period regardless of how long that takes. When that has been attended to, it is then the function of the forensic collision investigator to establish primarily what happened immediately before, during and after collision impact. That is what forensic collision is about.

There are a number of issues relating to this. Part of the forensic collision investigation involves marking out the position of evidence on the road, such as headlamps and, regrettably, bodies. Those are evidence, they have a weight and the distance from the vehicle after it stopped can be measured. We have to measure the cohesion of friction of the road surface — basically, the grip on the road surface. Issues affecting this include the presence of body or vehicle fluids. If a collision occurs at night, it is difficult to establish their presence so the investigator would wait until daylight to see the actual condition of the road surface.

The chief executive officer, Mr. Brett, has outlined the type of network we have. If a collision occurs on a motorway it may be possible to close down two carriage lanes, use the hard shoulder and move on to an additional lane on the opposite side. With our network, when a fatal collision occurs on a national primary route, the corridor is closed down. Regrettably, that is the way it is. We liaise with local authorities to ensure adequate detour procedures are put in place so that people can get to work and commerce is not disrupted.

These issues must be considered. We liaise with the fire and ambulance services to ensure that even while they are attending to injured people, they should be cognisant that evidence could be on the road, as I outlined, such as headlamps or other debris. That is all very important in terms of forensic collision investigation. It enables us to go to court and present the physical evidence at the scene in a scientific and technological format. That is what we can do now.

Regrettably, this takes time. The scene must be preserved and sealed off until this is done. The scene would be videotaped, photographed, marked out and measured. This is the reason the roads are closed for such a time.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I know there was an expression of disappointment at the beginning of this meeting but during the course of discussion, especially with what Chief Superintendent O'Brien has said, the committee should understand why I was not in a position to give detailed information, including blame information, for accidents in the past five weeks.

Chairman

I appreciate that.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I very much appreciate that the more information we have the better informed we are. The Garda and the committee are at one on that point.

Chairman

I appreciate the Commissioner's position but, for instance, on the information that came out in the public domain following the tragic accident on the morning of the rugby game, it meant a great deal to people that they understood the reason this accident happened. The reaction I had from younger people was that this kind of driving cannot be allowed whatever the reason.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

The Chairman will appreciatefrom the perspective of the Garda and the Director of Public Prosecutions — I do not wish to speak for the Director of Public Prosecutions — it is an aspect fraught with danger because we might be looking at a court case in 18 months time—

Chairman

That is appreciated.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

—and if we as the investigators made public pronouncements as to our belief before we have fully investigated anything then there is a danger. It is in that context—

Chairman

We will leave the last word to—

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

On that point, I was previously a member of the Joint Committee on Communications, Marine and Natural Resources and we had the Marine Casualty Investigation Board report before the committee. There may be legal issues and the number of people involved is smaller but could the Commissioner or Mr. Brett from the Road Safety Authority, RSA, ever envisage a situation where, given the seriousness of each event, there would be for the record a definitive report on each fatal crash? Does that happen in other countries, could that be done here and would that be a way forward?

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

There is a report on every fatal collision. It is referred, invariably, to the DPP unless there is no prospect of a case being taken or unless the person who is to blame is unfortunately killed. The core conduit for the Garda conveying the statistical information to the RSA is the form CT68. We provide as much information as that form allows. Assistant Commissioner Rock told me he has asked the advisory committee whether there is more information that we can supply or whether there is a need to expand the document so that gardaí, the people at the coal face, can provide further information. It is a matter for the Assistant Commissioner and Mr. Noel Brett to see what further information they can get.

Chairman

The point is if it can be stated that, for example, that a driver did or did not use a seat belt — given the importance of seat belts highlighted just now — or was in breach of the blood alcohol limit, that kind of information available quickly would certainly be useful.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

I agree.

Chairman

We will leave the last word to Mr. Brett, maybe he could give us a key message? I thank the members of the press who have been very patient with us today. Getting out the information we have heard here is important and I express our appreciation to the press. We do not often get the press here so they are welcome. Mr. Brett, the key message?

Mr. Noel Brett

I will start with Deputy Broughan's comment. There is a very good record in terms of the investigation file and the Coroner's Court. I will reflect on what the Deputy has suggested. Maybe if we examined the historical documents, we would know a good deal more. However a great deal is known already. For example, it is known at the Coroner's Court whether someone had a safety belt on. It would help if the public knew more and if we were able to say definitively this is the case. There is a file for every fatality. Thankfully the number of those is smaller now. There may be potential there. It works in other modes of transport and it has an impact.

Deputy O'Dowd raised a very important issue about uninsured motorists. If people are driving uninsured, it is an indicator of failure to comply with other rules. It is an "in your face" offence. One of the actions in the road safety strategy, action 46, is to establish a system to ensure that current insurance details for all drivers can be accessed, in real time, by the Garda to facilitate enforcement.

This means the garda at the road side or the garda using the automatic number plate recognition, ANPR, system should know when he or she approaches a vehicle whether it is insured. There is a practice among some drivers of insuring the vehicle, paying by direct debit for a few months and then stopping the payment without returning the disc. The driver has a disc and the garda thinks the car is insured. The Deputy raises an important issue and part of the solution is the need for an international clearing house to verify insurance. That would be a significant help.

Apprehending uninsured drivers is only part of the solution. We need to address behaviour and the culture. It is mad that we need to have gardaí out there checking discs. We need to get clever and use the technology that is, thankfully, coming. That is the reason it is in the strategy.

On not putting penalty points on licences, the RSA wrote some time ago to the Courts Service asking that it look at the possibility of dedicated road traffic courts to prevent large numbers of gardaí hanging around courts waiting for their slot. The more we have the courts doing their job and the Garda doing what we want it to do, the better. The principle with any road traffic offence should always be, where possible, to use administrative fines rather than use the courts. It is crazy that if a garda detects someone with a persistently broken head light or defective number plate, he or she has to summons that person and go to court, stand up in court and present the case. That is a bizarre situation and the more we can move to where those kinds of offences are dealt with immediately and people get justice at the roadside, the better. That is how we will change behaviour and how best to use resources.

In terms of the safety cameras, the position of the RSA board is very clear. Excessive, inappropriate speed is the biggest single challenge we face. We will get significant reductions — Deputy Broughan raised this earlier — if we change the culture. That is about education and the threat of enforcement. It is not about catching but changing and holding the culture of change.

The board was concerned about speed related collisions and the failure to reduce the number of those, despite success with alcohol related offence and others. It was like the tide going out. We could see no change in the number of speeding offences. In October the board wrote to the Minister asking if, in light of the number of speed related collisions, the penalty points meted out for speeding offences and not wearing a seat belt could be raised from two to three. That requires primary legislation and we have been told that will be looked into. The intent was to shock to people rather than try to deal with it in the courts later and to try and make people realise that speeding is a serious issue and that is why tariffs are imposed.

At the January meeting the board looked at the road safety strategy. It realised the outsourced safety cameras were due to be in place by the end of the second quarter of 2008. It was concerned that would not be delivered. That is why the chairman, on behalf of the board, wrote to the Minister to express its concern about speed related collisions and the need to press ahead, in light of the fact that it was also in the previous strategy. To best of my knowledge the chairman did not say he would resign. He was asked if he would he resign and he replied that it was not about Mr. Gay Byrne resigning, it was more significant and about speeding and addressing that culture. The priority is to get the appropriate response, to change the culture and to maintain the change.

In terms of leaving people with a message, there are two. To the committee, it is a pleasure to come here and have this discussion and I would like to do more of it. If there are any road safety activities, in terms of programmes in schools or anywhere else, that the committee wants to see at first hand, we would be happy to facilitate that. The broader message is about personal responsibility. It echoes what my colleagues have said. We are looking for small changes of behaviour by large numbers of people. We want everybody to wear a safety belt, to look at his or her speed, to never ever drink and drive, to look at the over the counter medicines, the prescription medicines and drug use. For those of us with children, whether they are toddlers or adult children, that we do not under estimate our ability to show example and to change our behaviour. Personal responsibility is the key theme.

I thank members of all parties for the support they have given in our first 12 months. We appreciate that.

Chairman

Mr. Brett is a mine of information. We all agree it has been a useful session. It reminds each of us of the need to be responsible. We can all say we have not been as responsible as we should have been in the past. It is a lesson for all of us. My thanks to the delegation and I wish them well in the difficult task they have.

Commissioner Fachtna Murphy

Thank you.

Chairman

Are there any other issues.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

In regard to No. 3 and to correspondence from the Cork Airport Authority—

Chairman

They have asked to postpone the meeting. They will be coming to speak to the committee but because of the sensitivity of discussions taking place at the moment they have agreed to postpone their appearance. Committee members will be informed of the date.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Can I comment on that?

Chairman

The Senator will get an e-mail.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I am disappointed at the decision of Cork Airport Authority not to come here today.

Chairman

All right.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The mediation process goes against the commitment given and is a missed opportunity.

Chairman

I thank the Senator for his comment.

The joint committee adjourned at 12.50 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 27 February 2008.