Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 2008

Bus Network: Discussion.

I welcome the delegation of county managers. We have decided to ask each of the managers to give a five minute presentation. If a written submission has already been supplied the key points of that can be made, and we will then have a question and answer session. We are trying to get a reputation for not talking for too long but we have not been successful so far. We want to keep to our time. Everybody has agreed to be brief.

We have been holding a series of hearings on the development of a reliable, high quality, high frequency bus service starting in the Dublin area. Critical to that is a similar type service from the commuter belt which the county managers represent. Essentially what we want to hear from them is their plans to have greater joined-up thinking between themselves and the Dublin local authorities, the transport companies, including Bus Éireann, and the private sector, and what specific proposals they have in place for facilities like park and ride, bus priority measures, and quality bus corridors in areas where there is currently congestion so that more people can get out of their cars and get into buses. We will talk to Bus Éireann later about its proposals for more buses and greater frequencies.

The committee is of the opinion that we can ease congestion in Dublin city and surrounding towns if we can change our mindset and get us all into using the bus instead of using the car. That is not to say we do not want people to use trains or other forms of public transport also. I will call the Wicklow county manager first on the basis that it has an up and coming football team.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

I thank the Chairman and members for their invitation to attend this meeting to discuss park and ride facilities. We have made a written submission which I understand has been circulated. I will talk about the broad strategic approach and then focus on some of the specifics in regard to park and ride in Wicklow.

Our first priority is job creation and economic development in the county and in building a strong sustainable future for the people of Wicklow. We have taken account of the national spatial strategy, NSS, policies and the regional planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area, RPGs.

We are very conscious that jobs and job creation are focused on the metropolitan area with a substantial imbalance between labour force and population especially in the mid-east region. In Wicklow in particular a large number of the extra people who have moved there in the past ten to 15 years work in Dublin and commute there. If the current trends persist jobs will continue to be located predominantly in the metropolitan area as the population will continue to grow in the hinterland area and this will lead to an increase in the amount of people commuting and, accordingly, in congestion.

Through our planning and development policies, we are seeking to reverse this trend by encouraging and promoting job creation in County Wicklow, especially in towns that have relatively good transport links. This will reduce travel demand in terms of journey distance and, I hope, will also encourage reverse commuting. The development plans for Bray, Greystones, Wicklow and Arklow have been informed by integrated framework plans for land use and transportation, IFPLUTs. All of these development plans provide for sustainable development and job creation.

An example of this policy is the Fassaroe area of Bray where we are planning an integrated development of residential, commercial and industrial development which will be served by the N11 and an extension of the Luas from Cherrywood. This development area will also make provision for up to 500 park and ride spaces. It is our intention that this development will be sustainable in that people will be able to work, live and enjoy their recreation without having to travel long distances or use their cars. We must maximise the chances of dispersing future job creation to towns in County Wicklow and elsewhere in the mid-east region and thus contribute to a reduction in long-distance commuting. In this way we will be tackling the cause of the problem rather than the symptoms.

Jobs ratio is the total number of jobs divided by the labour force. The jobs ratio has been used to measure the sustainability of settlements and it has been suggested that on sustainability grounds, the ratio should not fall below 0.7. The stark reality at present is that Dublin city has a ratio of 1.62 while Wicklow is 0.59, way below the sustainable level of 0.7. Our major objective is to strive to attain a minimum jobs ratio of 0.7 as soon as possible. We are conscious that this will take time.

In terms of park and ride initiatives, we had regard to the TAS report. The report noted that it was extremely unlikely that any of the proposed outer sites could be served by existing bus services passing the site. We also had regard to the rail-based park and ride strategy for the greater Dublin area published in November 2004. This strategy noted that the largest amount of parking spaces - 518 - were provided at Greystones station and recommended sites at Arklow and Wicklow rail stations, together with a site on the N11. Arising from the strategy, a public transport interchange design report for Wicklow and Arklow was published in January 2006 and it recommended improvements at both stations. Iarnród Éireann recently provided approximately 120 spaces at Arklow station.

Will Mr. Sheehy, please, concentrate on bus park and ride facilities? We know about the rail park and ride facilities.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Our focus has been on reducing commuting by trying to encourage job creation locally. Second, it has been on providing park and ride facilities at the existing rail station and in the future at Luas stations, which service is to extend from Cherrywood to Fassaroe. We have not provided park and ride facilities for buses in County Wicklow. The two sites identified in the TAS report were in Kilpedder and Greystones. We are not convinced they would be viable because we have recently constructed a dual carriageway and an interchange between Greystones and Kilpedder. This means that those passing by Kilpedder have the option of going to Greystones, from where they can take the DART. The council believes the option of taking a bus is far less attractive than that of taking the DART from Greystones. We remain to be convinced about the viability of park and ride facilities at either of the sites suggested for bus-based park and ride facilities.

Has Wicklow County Council conducted a study in this regard?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

As I stated, the TAS report covered it and its authors were certainly not convinced by bus-based park and ride facilities. There are different views on the matter. We provided a major 468 space park and ride facility for the DART station in Greystones and have worked with Iarnród Éireann at Arklow. Our roadworks in Wicklow town will make land available that could be used for a park and ride facility for the train service in the town.

I call Mr. Michael Malone, county manager, Kildare County Council.

Mr. Michael Malone

We very much welcome the opportunity to meet members to discuss park and ride facilities. On the basis of the documentation I received, I was not aware the discussion would be confined to bus-related park and ride facilities. The documentation related to park and ride facilities in general. Given the significant facilities pertaining to rail services in County Kildare, much of my presentation will focus thereon. That does not mean, however, that we are not in the business of trying to link with bus services. Perhaps I misunderstood the documentation, but I do not believe it specified buses.

That is a mistake on our part. Could we concentrate on bus transport to the rail heads and into the city?

Mr. Michael Malone

Okay.

We recognise that good work has been done in respect of rail services but we are focusing on bus transport.

County Wicklow has DART and mainline rail services and Luas is to be extended to Bray. Therefore, rail transport is also very important. If it takes cars off the road, we should not dismiss it.

The Kildare County Council brief is very informative, irrespective of whether it focuses on rail services. It would be good to hear what the council has done. Its work seems very interesting.

We will allow part of the contribution to focus on rail services, but this meeting is about bus transport. The reality is that many thousands of cars are coming into Dublin every day from County Wicklow, although the best bus route in Europe, the 46A, could be used by many buses to replace them. Mr. Malone may tell us a little about rail transport but should concentrate mainly on bus transport. That is the service we want to develop.

I do not have a problem listening to the collective wisdom of the managers present. In fairness to them, we should listen to what they have to say on commuters from their counties. The Chairman is chairing the meeting and his job is to facilitate the discussion with members, as he is doing. I am happy to listen to what the county managers have to say.

Fair enough.

Mr. Michael Malone

Transport infrastructure is of immense importance to the economic, social and cultural life of County Kildare and the country as a whole. A very important element in the delivery of the national development plan and the national spatial strategy is Transport 21 which very much focuses on improving transport infrastructure.

There is a high level of commuter movement from and through County Kildare to the capital. Over 35% of the workforce in the county travel in excess of 15 miles per day to and from work. This is over twice the national average. Over 70% of the population in the major centres of the county travel to work or school by car and a smaller but growing number spend in excess of 90 minutes travelling to and from work. These figures are evidenced every day on the N7-M7, the Naas road, on which daily vehicle numbers amount to in excess of 70,000, or over 26 million per annum. Populations from as far away as counties Carlow and Laois transit through the road network of County Kildare.

Park and ride facilities comprise an important element of the transport policy in County Kildare and the greater Dublin area aimed at taking cars off the road. We have recently completed an economic strategy for County Kildare through the ESRI. It highlights the urgent need for the provision of park and ride facilities. Linkage with the rail network offers significant opportunities as the county is well served by the mainline rail network to the south and west and similarly by the intercity motorways to the south and west. This infrastructure continues to influence settlement patterns in the northern, central and southern parts of the county.

My presentation sets out the recognition of and supports for the development and exploitation of the rail network in our major population centres through the relevant development plans, local area plans and traffic management plans. It cites examples of stations such as those in Leixlip and Newbridge where the council has worked directly in consultation with Iarnród Éireann to develop additional park and ride facilities. These facilities have been developed on the basis of land transfers from the council. There is a significant number of stations throughout the county and in virtually every case we are working with Iarnród Éireann to develop additional facilities. This involves work not only on the provision of the required car parking spaces but also on the provision of safe road services, including access for the disabled.

We are working closely with the Dublin Transportation Office and other stakeholders in the preparation of traffic management plans for all of our towns. The park and ride strategy, 2004, created by the Dublin Transportation Office recognises the need to develop park and ride facilities for rail services in County Kildare. There is a need to generate public confidence in the quality, availability and value for money associated with such facilities, provided that public transport links to and from the capital are of the highest standard. Integrated ticketing is an important element in generating public participation, as is the provision of accurate and up-to-date information on services and the availability of parking facilities.

Local authorities, including that in County Kildare, are playing and will play their part in the planning and delivery of infrastructure. There is a need for local steering groups representative of the various stakeholders operating on the national policy. I am chairman of the land use and transportation committee of the County and City Managers Association. It is working very closely with both the Department of Transport and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to try to put in place planning provisions at a very early stage. We, departmental officials and the other agencies involved are ensuring, particularly during the preparation of draft development plans, local area plans and traffic management plans, strategic decisions are taken on where the facilities should be located. While we have made significant progress on the facilitation of direct park and ride facilities at railway stations we must work on a grander scale to make any further impact on this issue. The challenge is to attract motorists off the motorways into public transport facilities. We contend that it is necessary to identify sites that are convenient to motorways and railway stations where motorists can park. Such facilities will not only facilitate the railway services but also offer opportunities for the public transport or private providers to operate direct services to and from the capital.

We are working with Bus Éireann on the development of quality bus corridors because there are congestion issues to address. A county which lies as close to the capital as Kildare experiences some of the congestion issues that arise in the capital.

Mr. Conn Murray

Louth is dominated by the two largest towns in the country. In the south of the county projected population growth is approximately 90,000 and in Dundalk, through the gateway process, the population will increase to 60,000. We are well served by the M1 motorway and there are good rail links to Belfast and Dublin. Our position on the Dublin-Belfast corridor is important for future employment growth.

As local authorities, however, we are conscious of the need to reduce car usage and have put significant policies in place to improve the rail service with additional train stations located and identified in Dundalk, Dunleer and Drogheda. We have made a substantial bid for improved pedestrian and cycle facilities throughout the gateway area and identified locations for park and ride facilities. We have concentrated on policy and providing the opportunity for park and ride facilities. Dundalk and its environs have a vision for an integrated transport system, identifying the rail station as an appropriate location for an integrated bus and rail system. The county and town councils recently approved the Mullagharlin framework plan, which puts flesh on the bones of the development plan by identifying locations within which rail facilities will be provided. It has also identified that a bus park and ride system can be provided cost effectively and quickly. We will initiate discussions with Bus Éireann on that system. The details of the council's policies are available in my written submission.

Drogheda dominates east Meath and we have worked closely with our colleagues in Meath County Council in respect of the greater Dublin area. The two counties are linked by the M1, by rail and by virtue of the fact that we are growing together. We have a Drogheda transport development area and the respective authorities have adopted a strategy and identified rail infrastructure and rail service projects. We have identified the necessity for multi-modal transport facilities including high class capacity park and ride carpark facilities and bus interchange facilities and the sites are available. We have established the necessary policies and are well placed to move forward on them.

The north Drogheda environs plan requires a new rail station serving a population of 20,000 in a pre-planned town. Planning permission has already been granted and the private sector is providing the service. Schools, retail and other services are being built in tandem with it. The integrated rail and bus services need to be brought forward with that to achieve the fully sustainable community outlined in the plan.

The planning strategy for the greater Drogheda area is extremely important because it demonstrates the co-operation between our respective local authorities and the need to continue to work together to find solutions and because of its proximity to Dublin. We have no park and ride facilities but we are well placed in terms of thinking, strategy and policies to move to the next stage. We are conscious that while we have the two largest towns in the country provision remains a question of viability and cost. That requires further study before the service is provided.

Mr. Tom Dowling

Meath County Council's development plan includes encouraging car commuters to transfer to public transport to reduce congestion. Any site in any county considered for park and ride facilities should be assessed to ensure that it does not cause local congestion. That policy is in line with the recommendations of the Dublin transport office on sustainable development etc.

We have a small park and ride facility for buses in Trim which is the only one in County Meath. We have temporary ones in Navan which grew and developed. We are working with Iarnród Éireann to improve facilities in Gormanstown and creating a facility in Laytown both of which are going well. The council has made the land available.

There are four corridors in County Meath, the main one running through the heart of the county is the M3 and we have completed a second quality bus corridor at Dunshaughlin which runs from Navan to Pace and Clonee reducing bus journey times to the capital. We are working with Bus Éireann to upgrade the existing bus shelters and the creation of new set-down and pick-up points on the M3 through Meath and into Cavan.

Last December there was a major oral hearing of an application by CIE for a railway order to construct a line from Clonsilla station to Pace, north of Dunboyne along the disused railway line to be known as the Dunboyne-M3 commuter rail project. One important element of that will be the development of a park and ride facility with space for 1,200 cars south of the M3 interchange. That is part of Transport 21 and the start of bringing a rail network to Navan, which Meath County Council initiated. We part-funded the initial and main feasibility studies and drove this to ensure that it was included in Transport 21. We must ensure that the bus and rail corridors are in line with Transport 21.

We started work last year on the M3. The new N2 Ashbourne by-pass opened only in 2006. We are also completing the upgrade of three strategic regional road projects that criss-cross the county. As a result of all those road works traffic is going all over the place. One has to have regard for traffic movements after these works. The M3 is scheduled to be completed in early 2010 while works on the regional roads will be completed this year. We will make major developments with park and ride facilities in the coming years.

We also believe park and ride facilities need to be coordinated between the different agencies involved. A park and ride facility at a rail station in a large urban area may meet the requirements of the service provider but not those of the local authority or other stakeholders. Putting a large park and ride facility into the middle of a built-up urban area may create serious traffic congestion.

We will continue to co-operate with the Dublin Transport Office, the office in charge of QBCs, Bus Éireann and private operators to deliver a sustainable transport system in the county and provide park and ride facilities.

I acknowledge good work has been done with rail network developments and park and ride facilities attached to various rail stations. However, there are capacity issues with trains and the park and ride facilities. The committee believes that, in the short term, the bus will be the workhorse for the change from private to public transport. Rail network developments will, in time, increase the number of commuters using rail.

Travelling on the main roads from the four counties outside Dublin is taking far too long because of traffic congestion. The committee's focus is on what can be done sooner to get more people to leave their cars at home. While we have heard much about plans and policies, I want to hear more about the specific plans the county managers have for the next two years to put facilities in place.

I do not accept the TAS report. Already, the Dublin local authorities are putting in place park and ride facilities at Lissenhall. South Dublin County Council applied for planning permission for a new facility in Leixlip which An Bord Pleanála has refused.

There has been a massive increase in the number of cars entering Dublin from the four counties. I have not heard anything today to suggest that alternatives are being put in place where people can leave their cars at park and ride facilities in the four counties. Neither has much work been done on creating QBCs and traffic management measures.

What will the local authorities do in the next two years to address this issue? Some €54 million has been allocated by the Department of Transport in the past four years for park and ride facilities. How much of that funding has each local authority drawn down?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

A major development in County Wicklow was the construction of a dual carriageway from the N11 into Greystones. This allows commuters, who would have driven the N11 to Dublin, the option of diverting to Greystones to use the DART. As it is the first station on DART northbound services, there are plenty of seats in the carriages. We have worked with the DTO in improving the QBC in Bray. As part of the new development of the golf club lands in Bray, we will work on improving the bus corridor.

How many kilometres of QBC in Bray have been built to date?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

None, but we have worked on improving access to Bray.

There is no QBC yet.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

The QBC comes out from Dublin to Bray. The proposal is to link up with the Dublin road in Bray as part of the overall development of the golf club lands which is going through the planning process at the moment.

In Arklow, 120 park and ride spaces have been brought on stream. We signed a contract before Christmas and work has begun on the port access route for Wicklow town. This will provide land for park and ride facilities which will be close to the railway station.

The TAS report did not consider it feasible to develop specific park and ride facilities in Wicklow. Our understanding of today's committee meeting was that it would be a general discussion on park and ride in all its formats. If we had known it was to concentrate specifically on buses, we could have addressed it in more detail.

We have done considerable work in providing land for and building park and ride facilities in conjunction with CIE in Arklow and Wicklow town. There is an under utilised park and ride facility in Greystones with 468 places. We have made a funding application to the DTO to provide CCTV cameras and other enhancements at the facility. We have completed an interchange between Greystones and the N11 to allow drivers access the DART at Greystones.

Mr. Michael Malone

In working with Iarnród Éireann and CIE we have provided approximately 1,700 spaces at eight rail stations. To make a serious impact on taking the numbers of vehicles off the road, we need to talk about park and ride facilities that will take thousands of cars. This is not an issue that will be addressed solely by Kildare County Council.

For all our development plans, we work on traffic and transport management with the DTO. We hope to carry out further work with the DTO on long-term planning as regards the needs of County Kildare and the region. While I accept the point on an immediate impact within two years, short-term measures are fine but this is about a long-term solution.

We are working with the DTO on QBCs for Newbridge and Naas which have not yet been installed. It is the DTO that is dictating the pace. There is need for all service providers, agencies and the Department to work together in identifying sites close to railways and motorways. This will offer opportunities not just for the rail network but for bus providers.

I accept that but should this not have been happening a long time ago? We have built the motorways but when reaching Dublin all travellers are stuck in traffic for an hour. Is there not a lack of vision in the implementation of the policy? Should there not be more joined up thinking, as Mr. Malone says?

Mr. Michael Malone

I agree, and that is the issue. We need to collaborate more. From our perspective, we do not have the resources to put in a facility of the size to which I refer. Land costs alone, as regards a project we have recently completed on an orbital route in Naas, represented more than 60% of the total. In excess of a kilometre costs €30 million. We do not have the capacity to take on this type of work and must do it in consultation with the national agencies.

Mr. Conn Murray

From our perspective it is an issue of scale in terms of what might be required. We have excellent public and private buses, providing an hourly service from Dundalk as well as an excellent rail service directly from Drogheda to Dublin. We have provided long-stay car parks, particularly in Dundalk, with additional parking coming on line in Drogheda to service these locations. In terms of the future, now that an appropriate infrastructure is emerging in the north east, the plans are in place for the next step. That requires integration between rail, bus and the local authority. What is within our capacity has to date been delivered in terms of the council's far-seeing policy to enable this to happen. These initiatives require resources, and we have not drawn down anything. However, that does not mean we have not been active in the delivery of what will be integrated transportation systems. Specifically, our gateway proposal introduces the concept of the "smart bus". This will be the first of its kind in the country, in terms of both sustainable energy and the provision between the college, bus and rail services. The joined up thinking is there, but the resources in a combined manner need equally to be brought to the table.

Mr. Tom Dowling

We have not drawn down any of the money to which the Chairman refers. We have about 10 kilometres or so of quality bus corridor. I should probably have indicated that the 1,200-space park and ride facility will be an integrated bus and rail initiative, which will be very significant. We are always open to proposals and we will work with anybody trying to provide a park and ride facility. We have used our land acquisition powers to assist Iarnród Éireann, which is important, and we shall continue to do that - for Bus Éireann too, if necessary.

As regards the new entry on all the interchanges, a quality bus corridor will be included. Ours is the only motorway in Ireland which will have this, and it is something we have insisted on, as a council.

I welcome the county managers and their directors of services here today. I want to make a general point that there is disconnection between the Oireachtas and local authorities, so that the reasons for policy decisions are not understood despite the good relationships we have with people within the county councils. Perhaps we need an approach that is better than statutory or informal meetings, between county councils and Members of the Oireachtas. We need to be more frequently brought up to date and perhaps the councils' thinking and that of the Oireachtas might change as a result of some of the issues being raised here.

The national spatial strategy, in many ways, dictates what is happening in the region. The Kildare County Manager put the emphasis on the region as such. One of the problems is that the greater Dublin region, when I was a councillor, comprised Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, but Louth was not included. I find that a major disadvantage. As the Louth County Manager, Mr. Murray indicated, there will be 100,000, say, living in that area in 2024 and yet most of them will not be part of this region. It does not make sense. In that context I welcome the joined up thinking between Mr. Dowling and Mr. Murray. Politically, a change is coming in that Mr. Dowling will be my county manager soon, as well as Mr. Murray, because part of the Meath constituency will move into Louth. These are not just political points--

They are not changed yet.

The changing trends need to be recognised and the massive growth in population. The Chairman is right in trying to address this issue. However, in the absence of a Dublin transportation authority and without the inclusion of Louth - which may not happen - it will not work. That is the key point.

The administrative regions are no longer effective in terms of the demands on them. We must discard the county hats and think of the region. I have spoken to Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann as regards Louth and the parts of Meath that are on the railway line. It is not just a matter of identifying locations outside the urban centres in the counties for park and ride purposes. A bigger plan is needed for around the city, wherever they may be. In other words, the connectivity as regards where a person ends up outside the city and getting into the centre is the major problem.

This morning I came by car because I have meetings later down the country. I encountered my first traffic jam this morning at 6.45 a.m. outside the airport, where we stopped for up to 15 minutes. The park and ride facilities therefore need to be strategically located as one gets nearer the city, regardless of the county one is in. Buses running from those locations need not necessarily be from county urban centres. These facilities should be located nearer the city for park and ride purposes while away from urban based populations in the middle of the country from whence buses can transport commuters quickly to the city centre. Much more thinking should be going into that.

I have a question for my county manager, for whom I have the highest respect, as he does for me. I welcome all the work done. People are parking at motorway intersections in County Louth. What is needed is a park and ride facility within the county, again adjoining or adjacent to the motorway, and linking up with Bus Éireann. Could he please respond to that point?

I want to put a question and if I am being critical, I am being constructively critical. CPOs were made by the NRA for those motorways the Deputy has just mentioned. Why was it not possible to include some land for the county council in those CPOs around the roundabouts leading on to those motorways? People could have parked their cars and taken a bus that now comes all the way in through the port tunnel. With a new bus line on the north quays, people could be on a bus, in O'Connell Street in about a quarter of the time it takes them to come by road.

We did not do it then, but at least if we can realise now that we must have much more vision and joined up thinking if we are to get people out of their cars, we shall have done a good day's work today.

On that point, is it not a fact that the Chairman's Government took away the building of the inter-urban routes from the county councils, including these four, and we still do not have the rest areas and stopping points on those routes? There are questions for the NRA to answer as well, but I want to welcome the county managers, Mr. Murray, Mr. Dowling, Mr. Malone and my former colleague from Dublin City Council, Mr. Eddie Sheehy, and commend them for the efforts they have made in the provision of park and ride facilities on the rail network.

It is basic that the four Dublin county councils, which were previously before the committee, represent one of the fastest growing urban regions in the world, heading towards a 2 million population. It is a significant urban region in European terms, at any rate. Quite clearly an integrated approach is critical. I wonder to what extent the four county managers present, and their directors, were consulted by the Department of Transport on the Dublin transport authority Bill or whatever it will be called. It probably should be called the Leinster transport authority Bill and I agree with my colleague, Deputy O'Dowd, as regards the ludicrous fact that Louth was left out of the greater Dublin region when bodies such as the Dublin eastern council and mid-east region were included.

To what extent were the county managers present involved in any type of major discussions, because we were supposed to be getting this Bill just before Easter? I want to know whether there was involvement on foot of what the managers have said. To what extent were they involved in bus licensing? Representatives of Bus Éireann will be here next to make a presentation. The chairperson made a very good point about park and ride, the importance of preserving the national bus network and the extent to which it is supplemented by private bus operators. Are the managers involved with Bus Éireann in the expansion of the route network? Are they involved in getting people from rural areas such as west Kildare to existing commuter rail park and ride facilities? The south Dublin county manager told us that he was in the process of getting a bus licence. Did any of the managers here today ever consider that their councils might become bus operators that bring people from smaller towns to central nodes of public transport?

Mr. Tom Dowling made a very interesting point on local congestion where a massive park and ride is created. We know there has been some resistance to county development plans in England to have new rail and bus park and ride facilities. Have the managers encountered any of that resistance? Unfortunately, we are not allowed to be councillors, even though we would love to remain so. In the wisdom of certain people, we were knocked off the councils and we miss that daily interchange with them, although I still have a good relationship with Dublin City Council and Fingal County Council.

The county councils are starting this run in to 2011. The Chairman is right to say that we need a bus park and ride facility yesterday. What are the managers doing in that regard?

I will be brief as I know there is a time constraint. Every witness mentioned where facilities were made available, it was invariably the council that provided the land, although that was not always the case. Is there an opportunity for private enterprise? Is it possible or profitable for people with land outside the cities to get involved in this? They might do a job that the local authorities might find difficult to do. I am long enough around to know that if there is a pound or a euro in it, somebody will do it. I do not know if the profit margin is there, but if there is money in it, somebody will surely want to get into it. Or will it always be a public utility that has to be subsidised?

I welcome the county managers. I am delighted to see the Louth delegation has been included, as the other three local authorities meet regularly with the DTO. I am particularly delighted to welcome my county manager and the director of services. It is very important that they mentioned rail services and park and ride facilities in Kildare, where we have two distinct rail links to the city.

There have been huge improvements made to the park and ride facilities in Hazelhatch and Sallins, which resulted from Iarnród Éireann and the local authority working together. The parking problem at Maynooth is the biggest issue. I spoke at the last meeting with Iarnród Éireann about the possibility of a new rail station in Collinstown, which does not look very likely as it would provide three stations to Leixlip. What about the possibility of a park and ride facility for a bus service there? It would cater for the huge amount of traffic travelling from north Kildare into the city. Would the local authority have any input in facilitating an organisation such as the GAA, which has a big parking facility near the rail station at Confey in Leixlip?

When the managers are looking at new developments, do they examine bus-turning circles in estates? The towns in Kildare North are very spread out, so to get to the bus stops of Naas or Maynooth often requires taking a car, which causes parking problems in the centre of those towns. There is just no parking available. Do the managers look at providing bus-turning circles? Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus representatives tell us they cannot go to these estates as there are no turning bays in them. What about cycle lanes to the bus stops?

I welcome all the officials, including our county manager, Mr. Tom Dowling and Mr. Eugene Cummins, the director of services. I also welcome Mr. Conn Murray, with whom I served in Meath in the early days. His father was on the council when I was elected to it for the first time, which is neither today nor yesterday. It is good to see him coming back to a good county such as Louth, and I wish him years of happiness there.

I cannot understand why park and ride facilities were never put on all major routes into Dublin years ago. I left home this morning at 7.50 a.m. and I arrived here at 10 a.m., covering a distance of 64 kilometres. If the morning is wet it could take three hours. That is the type of crucifixion we must suffer trying to get into Dublin every day. It must be really difficult on people who must start work at 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. Has Meath County Council put any of its development charges back into purchasing land for park and ride facilities? I am disappointed that none of that money has been drawn down.

Prior to the launch of the service from Navan to the airport and DCU, I had discussions with Bus Éireann to get the service extended to Kells, something I hope will happen. In those discussions, we spoke about a park and ride facility and I know the company is anxious to provide such a facility in Kells. I may have misunderstood the Bus Éireann representatives. They seemed to want land on the Cavan side of Kells, but felt that the council was promoting the Dublin side of Kells. Locating it on the northern side of Kells would be beneficial to a lot of small towns, including in Cavan, such as Ballyjamesduff, Virginia and Bailieboro. It would also benefit my area of Athboy, Oldcastle, Crossakeel and so on.

The people to whom I spoke did not know that there would be a roundabout on the Cavan road out of Kells on to the N52 bypass of Kells, which will link up with the M3. The town council has over 300 acres of land in Kells, some of it on the old N3 which is very suitable. I ask the county manager and Mr. Cummins to consider the possibility of that land being made available. There are cars parked in fields and on the side of the road at any crossroads on the old N3, whether between Navan and Kells or at Garlow Cross and Kilmoon, in which Deputy Thomas Byrne and Deputy Shane McEntee would also be interested. Do the local authorities plan to make land available in those areas for those who want to park their cars?

There is a great bus service to and from Meath. In my town of Kells, the service operates every 15 minutes at peak time and from 6 a.m. until late at night. Bus Éireann intends to introduce double decker buses on the Kells route and, with the development of the M3, that service will hopefully be operational in two years.

I am pleased the delegation has appeared before the committee. The local authorities have a difficult job so I do not wish to be critical. We also have a difficult job and, as the public criticises us, we must give a little stick to the local authorities. The witnesses are well fit to take it.

Deputy Johnny Brady, like the rest of us, will be taking the bus one or two days a week when we have the kind of service we are talking about.

It is good to have the county managers before the committee, including Mr. Tom Dowling and Mr. Eugene Cummins of Meath County Council. The biggest issues we must consider are the problems in Dublin's neighbouring counties. We met last week with the managers from the Dublin area, who outlined the bus corridors they have put in place, although there may be a problem with the number of buses available. Congestion into and out of Dublin will continue. I have always put counties Wicklow, Kildare, Meath and Louth together as the counties on the outskirts of Dublin which are growing and will continue to grow. No matter how much money is pumped back into the county councils for roads, there will never be enough because the number of cars will continue to grow. The major improvement that has taken place is that the quality of the roads from those counties into Dublin is top class and as good as anything one will find worldwide. It is great to see the M3 progressing so fast.

On the broader picture, the improvement of public transport is the only way we will get to a position where commuters will get to work from Cavan, Dundalk or elsewhere in one hour. This can happen if everybody works together, including the county managers in Dublin and surrounding counties. A recent newspaper advertisement calling on people to make submissions in this regard was one of the best ideas I have seen.

As Deputy Connaughton rightly said, the money is not available for the county councils in the area to provide the service required. There are landowners outside the towns in this area who are prepared to make submissions on providing depots which would have a small amount of business integrated into them to make the plans work. We should work now rather than in two or three years to deal with the submissions coming from the private sector. When, as we hope, the M3 is open in two years, the bus depot should be opened on the same day to prevent people getting into the habit of using their cars. It is the way forward.

With regard to rail, while there is constant reference to a Navan to Dublin link, last week I heard an interesting comment from my party spokesperson that perhaps we should consider opening the railway from Derry to Navan to avail of increased cross-Border funding, such as happened with the Cork to Dublin line because it was linked to Belfast.

We all back the Deputy's suggestion in that regard.

I welcome the various managers, particularly the Wicklow county manager. While this may be outside the remit of the managers, having attended the DTO meetings and having contact with the Dublin city and county managers, what is their view on the provision of park and ride facilities for the Luas? The first stop from the closest location in Wicklow is Tallaght but there is nowhere to park in Tallaght. As the line is to be extended to Citywest, it is very important that there are park and ride facilities to enable people who come from the outlying counties to use the Luas. At Sandyford, one can see cars parked at the side of the road, blocking traffic. This issue must be examined.

The facilities for park and ride in Wicklow are very poor. My understanding is that with the exception of Greystones DART station there are no facilities. The managers' submission referred to the towns of Bray, Wicklow and Athlone but in two of those cases the parking is on-street and in the other, Arklow, parking provision is at the railway station.

It was stated that the local authority does not have funding available, which is a fair point. The issue of local government has not been addressed by any Government in the past few decades. The county managers should take on this issue because they cannot do anything unless they have funding. Some of the mechanisms the local authorities have for collecting funding at present are inequitable and unfair.

On a point of information, I agree with the Deputy that there is a major lack of funding for local authorities. However, the one area where money has been allocated but not taken up in the Department of Transport in the last four years is for park and ride facilities. A €54 million budget is available but no local authority in the country, except those in Cork, has taken it up. Funding is available not only to build park and ride facilities but to acquire the land for them.

I thank the Chairman for that information. I will conclude on that note as the information overshadows what I intended to say. I will finish with a question for the county managers. This is not an issue that has dropped out of the sky. If there is a €54 million fund for park and ride facilities, why did the local authorities not apply for the funding? I would like to hear an explanation.

We shall begin with the Meath county manager.

Mr. Tom Dowling

I thank the Chairman.

I want to give the Wicklow man a break.

Mr. Tom Dowling

I could not help thinking as the debate progressed that it is only in the past couple of years that we have come to the forefront in our thinking on the area of park and ride. The concentration would have been on the area referred to by Deputies McEntee and O'Dowd, namely, trying to address matters near Dublin. I would argue that one of the reasons we would not have applied for such funding - my colleagues are probably the same - is that because we are just outside Dublin, we were concentrating on improving all our road routes and upgrading quality bus corridors and so on. We are now ready to begin doing exactly what the Chairman suggests. The local authorities will not be found wanting once that money is available and there are clear criteria as to how we can access it.

Deputy Brady raised several questions and while I will answer some of those tomorrow when I meet him, I can answer some of them now. We have had numerous meetings with Bus Éireann because we are very conscious of the new bus service along the route to Navan and Kells and the upgrading works taking place on the M3. I agree that the north side of Kells is the correct location. We have had our preliminary discussions and we will continue to work with Bus Éireann so both Kells and Navan have proper park and ride facilities.

I want to comment on the area of private sector involvement. I see no problem with this, except I have a feeling that many of the applications will be with regard to fields that would never get permission to develop anything on them. Perhaps this is the reason they suddenly have become very valuable. If such fields are in the right location, one can take it that local authorities will consider them very carefully.

If they are in the wrong location commercially, surely the people who own them will not want to be involved in any event?

Mr. Tom Dowling

They might be in the wrong location for us but the right location for them because they just happen to be there.

However, will they be in the right location for the commuters? That is the catch.

Mr. Tom Dowling

They might and we will see what comes in. In fairness, the advertisement was very worthwhile and encouraged people to come out of the woodwork, which we thought was helpful. I see no problem with the approach whereby organisations such as the GAA or the local rugby club would be facilitated. We already have done this in Navan with the rugby club. If such bodies have space, we should work with them.

As for development contributions, there are so many ordinary car parks to develop and there is an approved contribution scheme. However, I cannot recall whether it contains a particular contribution for park and ride facilities. That is all I have to add and I again thank the Chair.

Mr. Conn Murray

I will first touch on issues of viability because it is an important aspect of this question. It requires scale and from my perspective, serious questions arise as to its viability and what it would take to get it off the ground. A cultural change in respect of people's habits must be achieved. We now have in place a good road service, a good rail service, as well as a good bus service. While we can now begin to consider changing people's habits in response to that, this also will take time. Therefore, we must be prepared to commit the resources to enable this to happen.

I refer to Deputy O'Dowd's comments on strategic locations that would be of suitable scale in terms of the city. They would be very important in that regard. From my personal experience of working in the south and coming north, one of the best decisions made was to enable people to park at the Red Cow roundabout and take the Luas into the city centre. This is a typical practical example of what can be achieved if the thinking is put right in this regard.

As for other questions put to us, Louth County Council was not consulted on the proposed Dublin transport authority. This is an issue and has been highlighted. We were not part of the thinking in that context. However, as we are a consequence of the impact, therefore we also should be part of the solution. As for housing estates and so on at local level, all new estates have appropriate facilities and Louth County Council is making provision for connecting cycle facilities in this respect. I do not believe the other questions pertained to me.

I asked a question on park and ride facilities in the centre of the county.

Mr. Conn Murray

The Deputy raised the issue of park and ride facilities on the motorway interchanges. This is a growing issue and discussions are under way with the National Roads Authority in the context of the services areas it intends to provide because such facilities must be provided in a safe place that can be properly managed and operated and must be strategically located to service existing requirements.

Mr. Murray is missing the intended locations of such service areas. I have the details from the NRA. His point is that if one central service area--

Mr. Conn Murray

We must integrate our thinking in this regard because--

That is a fair point.

Mr. Conn Murray

- -the service station will be provided and we also must put the park and ride facilities with it.

Can this be done without the service station? I regularly come across the bridge on the M1 coming from the airport, albeit with less frequency than when I was a Minister, on which there is a traffic jam at 6.50 a.m., with four solid lines of traffic. I refer to Deputy O'Dowd's proposal in respect of strategic sites located off the motorways or on the outskirts of towns, at which people could park their cars. Bus Éireann's submission included details of a new 80-seat double-deck coach, which it states will run every 15 minutes from Navan to Dublin. Given the coach's ability to go through the port tunnel and the establishment of the new quality bus lane along the north quays, it must be attractive for people to leave their cars at home, perhaps not every day but certainly some of the time. This is the point members wish to make to the county managers today. We wish to be constructive and are aware they are under pressure in respect of many matters. However, we believe there is an answer, which does not cost the earth and for which money is available. Members will be asking the local authorities to consider it.

Mr. Conn Murray

In response, I do not believe that anyone is stating the opposite in this regard. We believe there are solutions. From my perspective, we are establishing the proper basis on which these solutions now can be provided, which is important. Infrastructural assets such as the buses now are coming on stream that will enable us to respond. There is an undoubted willingness to do so.

Mr. Michael Malone

I refer to Deputy O'Dowd's comment on thinking regionally and on working with the Dublin Transportation Office, DTO, and hopefully, the Dublin transport authority, DTA, when it is in place. This is the way we must go. While we all can endeavour to provide local solutions, they all must join up in terms of their impact. One can discuss the establishment of park and ride facilities in the outside areas, that is, in the counties we represent. However, if the public is to be persuaded to use them, it will be very important to guarantee that on getting off the bus or train an integrated transport system will be in place to take passengers to wherever they wish to go in the city. It is not simply a case of putting a bus on a road. People are selective and must be reassured in this regard. However, this is the way we must go.

As for the reason we did not include additional areas when making the CPOs, I agree we should have but we did not. That was national policy, possibly linked to the limited budgets that were available at the time. We were the agents for the National Roads Authority in terms of applying the CPOs and did not determine which lands would be purchased. That was dictated by the National Roads Authority. However, I agree with the Chairman. On reflection, and as the country becomes a busier and bigger place, we now see these to be real pressing social issues. I imagine in the future one probably will see a lot more inclusion of the type mentioned by the Chairman.

I refer to Deputy Broughan's question on whether there was consultation in respect of the DTA Bill. There was consultation, particularly through the regional authority and through the Dublin Transportation Office itself, which is representative of different counties. I again make the point that it is important for the DTA to be brought into being as quickly as possible to provide the required integration across the greater Dublin area.

We have no involvement in bus licensing. While we would like to have such involvement, we do not. Perhaps this is something on which we might be able to embark through better integration.

Mr. Malone should tell members how he would like to get involved. Members strongly believe there is a serious lack of joined-up thinking in this area. Local authorities and Bus Éireann, as well as the Garda and other bodies, should have a highly structured ongoing relationship to plan matters such as the regulation of buses in each local authority area. Mr. Malone should comment on how that might happen.

Mr. Michael Malone

In my presentation I alluded to the need for high-level collaboration between the relevant Departments and agencies. At a more regional level, there would be steering groups in each county that would be representative of those agencies and Departments and which would have the clout to make decisions and commitments. That would be very important. In turn such steering groups would be linked back to some form of agreed policy. In other words, whoever represented such an organisation would be working with an overall policy and it would be a case of pulling the various bodies together. Such a forum does not exist and I would like to see its introduction. One might describe it as being equivalent to a county development board but that is limited to transport companies and other agencies involved in its provision.

This is an idea that has arisen today. I ask the four county managers to revert to the committee with proposals on such a steering group, management authority or transport authority, that outline the structures they envisage in each region in this respect, because it is the key missing issue.

Mr. Michael Malone

I am aware this is an issue from my discussions with the Department of Transport. I will make a general point in respect of quality bus corridors and everything else that must be put in place. Members come from political backgrounds and are aware that these issues can be quite contentious and can take quite some time to put in place. In some instances, it can take years in the event of local opposition from traders or whoever is opposed to such developments. Perhaps it is a case of re-examining some of those areas to see how they can be simplified.

This comes back to another point made by Deputy Connaughton on private sector involvement. While I support private sector involvement, members are aware that the procurement process is very lengthy. Irrespective of who carries it out, it probably takes a few years to bring a very big project from inception through planning to delivery. That is reality.

Mr. Malone should make proposals to members on how he would fast-track or shorten this process. Our role is to try--

Mr. Michael Malone

Of course, if we can advise the joint committee in any way in this regard.

- - to put forward to the Minister and his officials the kind of joined-up thinking that everyone, the county managers in particular, wants to see.

Mr. Michael Malone

Very well. Deputy Brady, who represents County Kildare, raised a number of issues including some local issues. As she can appreciate, the site in Maynooth is very tight. We are endeavouring to ascertain whether we can improve the situation. Perhaps Mr. Desmond Page would like to comment on this issue.

Mr. Desmond Page

We are already working with Iarnród Éireann on a countywide basis. Maynooth is one of the areas it has targeted in respect of park and ride facilities. Unfortunately, the station is in a very confined area with a number of residential estates around it. However, we are trying to be as inventive as possible with regard to examining possibilities for underground parking, multi-layered parking and parking within a number of developments which we are trying to promote on a joint venture basis within the town. That is work for the future and I do not anticipate a quick fix in respect of this issue although there are some possibilities for a small number of several hundred additional parking spaces around the station. However, that is not on the scale of what we need to achieve.

Mr. Michael Malone

Deputy Timmins referred to park and ride facilities in respect of the Luas if it is extended to Citywest. I anticipate that any extension of the Luas would require park and ride facilities. The Deputy can take it that when the Luas is extended, these facilities will be provided. I use the facility at the Red Cow on an ongoing basis and find it a great facility. There were other issues specific to individual counties.

I apologise if I was hard on Mr. Eddie Sheehy at the beginning because it was as much our mistake as it was his that we did not put the emphasis on bus transport.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Not at all. I thank the Chairman.

Aside from that, Mr. Sheehy is doing well.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

I am delighted to see that Deputies Timmins and Doyle joined us during the discussion. Deputy Timmins asked a question about why we had not drawn down the funding of €54 million which he indicated was available. We were not conscious that this sort of funding was available to us for park and ride facilities. Despite that, we provided a very fine park and ride facility in Greystones DART station with 468 spaces. We have made a further application to the DTO for additional funding to enhance that. In respect of the point about the park and ride facility at the extension of the Luas to Citywest, we will bring this to the attention of our colleagues in Dublin.

The Luas is also coming to Fassaroe in Bray. I am very much aware that part of the proposal there is for a 500-space park and ride facility so everybody would be conscious of the need to provide, where land is available, park and ride facilities at public transport nodes.

Deputy Broughan asked about the consultation in respect of the DTA. As we all know, the proposed DTA has been doing the rounds for many years. Over the years, there has been very extensive consultation with local authorities. As designated manager for the region and a member of the DTO, we would have had some consultation in respect of it and made our views known in respect to the DTA. We would be strongly supportive of it. We realise there is a multiplicity of agencies who are doing their best to work together but there are gaps and overlaps. Hopefully, the establishment of the DTA at an early stage will fill in those gaps and avoid those overlaps.

I would like to see a strong supremo. I remember that years ago, it was anticipated that the great Mr. John Fitzgerald would be the director of this edifice. Does Mr. Malone believe it needs, as the Chairman indicated, this very firm direction, particularly in respect of transport?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

Having worked with the man mentioned by the Deputy, I have every reason to believe he could do a Trojan job in sorting out the problems. However, one always has a conflict between strong leadership and direction on the one hand and the need for consensus and democratic participation on the other. I would argue that there is a problem there which has not been addressed adequately within the existing structures and that structures need to be put in place to ensure there is the level of interaction and cohesion between the agencies. The question arises as to whether that is to be done by one man or by a fairly strong executive committee with consensus being reached by perhaps a larger advisory committee. There are various structures that could achieve the same job. There is a need for strong leadership to tie all the agencies together and iron out differences. Turf wars and boundary issues always arise and while we all endeavour to co-operate as best we can, working together as part of one overall agency would be beneficial.

In respect of access between towns within counties and so on, in Wicklow, we are very involved in the rural transport initiative on which we have worked with the Wicklow Rural Partnership. The rural transport initiative ensures that people can get from town to town and has been a tremendous success in Wicklow. I know of one person who used the service in the early stages and who said that it was the equivalent of bringing rural electricity to her area because it had brought about such an improvement in her quality of life.

In respect of facilitating buses in built-up areas, there is excellent co-operation between ourselves and Bus Éireann. We are in discussions with Bus Éireann in respect of a number of areas within Wicklow town where it has identified problems in bus movements and so on. We are talking to it with a view to trying to resolve those issues and improve the service.

In respect of cycle tracks, we strongly believe in the need for improved facilities for cycling. This is something in which there has been a reduction for various reasons. We are putting cycle tracks on all new roads we are building. We put a cycle track on the Greystones southern access route. The new port access route in Wicklow, which we began building a few weeks ago, will also have cycle lane facilities. It would be great if we could take people out of cars and put them on bicycles.

In respect of traffic coming in to Dublin, we strongly believe in the need for the Dublin outer orbital route to divert some of that traffic away from the city. It does not want to go to the city. People do not want to be sitting in traffic jams and we would strongly urge that this road should go all the way around from Louth through Meath and Kildare and into Wicklow. It should be a full circle rather than terminating in Naas.

We will talk to Mr. Sheehy about that at a later stage. We will now conclude.

May I ask a question?

Very quickly. I will allow Deputy Doyle to ask one quick question because he is a new Deputy but we must then conclude.

On a point of information in case the Chairman thought I was throwing in a clanger, I would like this committee to know that there is a fully intact railway from Cabra Castle in Kingscourt to Navan and directly to Drogheda. This is something that must be looked at. With the amount of heavy industry--

In respect of the money available, we received this information when the Dublin city authorities appeared before us. A total of €51 million has been made available over the past four years. That is the statistic.

I thank the Chairman for his indulgence. I will play the naive card as long as I can. How was the figure of €54 million mentioned by the Chairman publicised? Was it widely known among directors and managers in local authorities that this was available?

Part of the problem in respect of car parking at Bray train station is the fact that people are parking there who would use Greystones if there was a more frequent DART service there. This service is not available because there is a single rail line. It has been identified that pullover points are increasingly needed. That is part of the problem. In general, they must look at multi-story facilities.

Is a park and ride facility envisaged for the Whitegate lands when they are being redeveloped? It will be council land, the nearest land that will be available at this point in time to the railway and the only land available to get cars off the street.

Could Mr. Sheehy give a quick answer to those questions?

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

We have made a submission that the service needed by Greystones and the rail service to Wicklow town and beyond be improved. There are constraints on that. We made a submission to the strategic rail study. The proposals were not included in Transport 21. We believe a shuttle between Wicklow town and Bray would allow many people who normally use their cars to use it to get to the DART and get from Bray to the city centre. If we know there is funding available for something, we will look at it and see whether we can draw it down. My director and I were not aware of a pot of money for park and ride facilities in our county. In light of today's--

In 2002, there was a fine report by the DTO of which everyone, including our four guests, would have been aware. It ranked sites, so on and so forth. A good while has since passed.

Mr. Eddie Sheehy

We have operated on the basis that--

In thanking the county managers, we appreciate that they are determined to make progress. As Mr. Malone or Mr. Dowling stated, it is clear that this is a recent phenomenon. We believe that the committee can fast forward the matter, that significant money is not involved and that the bus will be the work horse in the immediate future. Aside from the Exchequer, there are various ways to raise money, such as planning gain, private investment and leasing land instead of buying it. It does not cost the Earth to build a car park.

Yesterday, I visited Cambridge in York with a group of business people from Galway city centre, where there is a considerable problem. We examined park and ride facilities for bus and train services to London. It is not the same issue as the committee is discussing, but we examined facilities in both cities. In York, there are 5,000 car spaces in five park and ride facilities. Cambridge is the most attractive and successful visitor city in Britain. At 9.30 a.m., we were able to drive around in a bus without a bother. When the bus entered the city centre, a section of the road lowered and the bus went through. We are light years behind.

Will the managers consider a set of proposals and revert to the committee in the autumn to make a start on improving some of the bus priority measures? Will they develop proposals on opening new park and ride facilities in each area? We are not looking for miracles, as we know it takes time and money. The best idea came from Mr. Malone, namely, that the possibility of a local steering group could be considered. Neither the DTO nor any other organisation at the top level will solve the problems, as the best people to solve them are the managers in conjunction with other local stakeholders. I would like the managers to revert to the committee with a proposal on how to get a local steering group to introduce joined up thinking and forward planning, the most significant obstacles to progress.

I thank our guests. The committee appreciates their good work and I do not want to take away from it.

Sitting suspended at 5.33 p.m. and resumed at 5.35 p.m.

I welcome Mr. Tim Hayes, chief executive of Bus Éireann, Mr. Vincent Sheehan, Mr. Joe Kenny and Mr. Robert O'Mahony. Our guests' presentation is impressive. However, as is evident from our earlier meeting, we are on a tight schedule. Rather than go through the detail of the presentation, could the committee be given a synopsis? Our guests could concentrate on some of the issues they heard the committee discussing, namely, how to bring about a more immediate transfer of people from cars to buses. They could indicate the types of proposals and initiatives they would like to see coming from local authorities and others to allow buses to run faster and in less congestion.

Mr. Tim Hayes

I am grateful to attend this meeting in order that we can present what Bus Éireann has been doing and plans to do under Transport 21. I will go through our presentation quickly. Members can read the summary at the beginning, but I will not go through the section on the scale of the company.

The next section is on an integrated national network, in respect of which I will make one or two points because it applies to the east. We are in a somewhat unique position in the sense that we can provide an integrated network of services, which is of significant value to non-urban areas outside Dublin. The most important factor is to have interlinking timetables in order that people can move around the country. One can travel from a small village or town to the local large population centre and onwards to a range of locations throughout the country. I would appreciate it if members bear this in mind when I speak. One can buy a single ticket at a fare that is significantly discounted in comparison to fares purchased on an individual basis. This is important to people living in small locations such as Castlebellingham, Coachford and so on. I have presented a map of the Athlone link, which could just as easily be in respect of Dundalk, a map that I will present later, Limerick, Nenagh or Ennis.

The next slide outlines what has occurred under the national development plan between 2000 and 2007. As members can see, we have more than doubled the number of departures in that time and extended the range of services, including late night services, the introduction of services in Navan and Balbriggan, services that operate via the Port tunnel and services to Dublin Airport. We have upgraded the five stations in the area. There are also back-up electronic services. In total, we have trebled the passenger numbers going in and out of Dublin.

We base our plans on supporting the national spatial strategy and the local, county and regional plans. They are also based on population growth, which has been substantial in the east. We are mindful of the changing travel needs of a 24-7 economy and lifestyles that are different from those of ten years ago. Our formula is new buses, new routes, improvements to existing routes such as the radial routes to and from Dublin, more departures and giving customers more options. We are investing €37 million in a new fleet, with 108 new buses and coaches comprising 74 replacements and 34 additional buses. All vehicles are wheelchair accessible and bio-fuel compatible with Euro 4 and Euro 5 engines, giving lower CO2 emissions. The vehicles include the commuter coach, a city bus and a double-deck coach, an innovative solution to high volume corridors on long distance commuting routes. The coach has the capacity of a double-deck bus but it is of higher quality and is a comfortable ride. People will not get out of cars unless we provide a quality ride.

Buses can be quickly procured and give immediate, tangible benefits. They are flexible because they can serve a range or locations. They represent a low capital investment.

There are two elements to our plans under Transport 21. One is to increase the frequency of services and extend hours of operation. The second is to introduce new routes. Three new routes will connect to the Luas, four new routes will connect to airports and there is a new orbital route from Drogheda to Trim to Blessington. People do not have to come into the city, blocking the artery routes. People can be brought around the city, from Navan to Dublin Airport to DCU, removing people from the main road. There is also an intermodal interchange at the airport, providing for those who wish to travel from Ratoath to Drogheda. Some of our planned improvements include 12 or 15 minute service frequency, which is similar to a city operation and this is unusual in a commuter service. A route from Wicklow to Dublin Airport is also planned.

Ongoing improvements are backing up these routes. Real time information will be provided by the end of the year on when the next buses are arriving. It will be displayed at a bus station and can be sent to a mobile telephone. The customer can text his location and be told that the bus is five minutes from Garlow Cross. The information is also available online. The equipment has been fitted to vehicles and is being tested in Dublin.

I was interested on the excellent discussion about park and ride facilities. I agree wholeheartedly with the points made. We must think laterally on this matter. The experts in the UK believe these facilities should be located on the edge of medium-sized cities. However, we have commuter traffic here and we know people are parking on the side of the road. We must consider this from the commuter point of view. We would be one of the first to establish a commuter park and ride. As with double-deck coaches in Kells, there is a high frequency service. Our idea is to link it to facilities. We are outbasing buses, which is the most efficient way of doing this. The bus starts from the same location, the base is there and the cost of operations is reduced. Feasibility is one of the issues that will arise. Having an existing service, rather than a dedicated service, reduces the whole cost. In that situation one can run smaller park and ride sites.

We believe in the partnership with local authorities, the quality bus network, representatives such as Oireachtas Members and the private sector, with whom we work closely. We hire a considerable number of private operators who work for us.

We are making improvements. We have doubled some routes and increased by fivefold the range of services provided. Ashbourne to Dublin has increased from 22 to 72 departures, Newbridge to Naas has increased from 30 to 62 departures, and the innovative orbital service from Trim to Navan to Drogheda has increased from two to 12 services leaving every hour. This is planned for this year.

Motorways bring opportunities and challenges. Maintaining an integrated network and the cost of traffic congestion are other challenges. On the Dundalk to Drogheda to Dublin line, which I am using as an example but I could also use Kells to Navan to Dublin, Dundalk and Drogheda are interchange points. With a motorway and an old road we need more buses to provide the service on both routes. There is a demand for direct services from the main centres and this must be met but that makes serving secondary locations less economic and more difficult. Our objective is to maintain the network of services and provide connections locally and nationally. One must think of other movements, besides to and from Dublin, such as Castlebellingham to Mosney. We must consider when to use the motorway, whether to access it at Drogheda and how to get to Mosney. Other routes include the Dunleer to Balrothery, Navan to Balbriggan and Birr to Collon routes, which connect the east to the rest of the country and locations within that area. We wish to maintain this network.

Bus journey commuting times are increasing by eight minutes per year. Over five years it has increased by 40 minutes. This means we do not get the same level of efficiency and work from our drivers. They take longer to do the same amount of work. Commuting speeds are half the European average, placing an additional cost of €22 million above the European average on Bus Éireann. If we could reduce traffic congestion we could reduce our costs and our subvention by a significant amount. For this reason, bus lanes are important to us. I acknowledge the work of the quality bus network office and the local authorities on quality bus corridors on the N3 from Navan to Dublin and the N7 from Naas to Dublin.

We have advocated the use of the hard shoulders for some time. Some progress has been made but more can be made. Buses could travel up the hard shoulder at 30 km/h to 50 km/h and skip the traffic. Capital investment may be limited but this uses what is already there.

Bus Éireann provides good value for money. The subvention received by Bus Éireann for social services is low by international levels. The social services are maintained by State support, for which we are grateful, and through Bus Éireann resources such as the returns made on commercial services. Bus Éireann is investing in social services and minimising the taxpayer's contribution. An independent value for money audit was commissioned by the Departments of Finance and Transport and the report was positive for Bus Éireann. A comparison with other countries shows our requirements are modest by international standards.

Better customer services are based on a higher frequency of departures on existing routes, more routes and destinations and extended operating hours - we are discussing a 24-hour service on the Drogheda route - all linked with an integrated nationwide network. One cannot ignore smaller communities. We are, therefore, conscious that we must link them with the local town and beyond. We estimate this would reduce the number of car journeys by 2 million per annum. It would also reduce congestion and CO2 emissions.

Bus Éireann is a transport management company which plans and manages networks of services in an integrated fashion. We provide services through our own resources and subcontracting. We have significant involvement with private operators and spend more than €100 million each year on the provision of services through them. In fairness to the county managers present, we work closely with local authorities because they have expertise when it comes to land use, traffic management, road design and infrastructure. By pooling our skills and theirs we can make further progress in the provision of a package of measures. It is not only about the bus vehicle and the timetable; it is also about bus priority measures such as bus stops and park and ride facilities. When the package is brought together and the elements work together, we get a better return

We have a regional structure and the company is not run from Dublin. Mr. Joe Kenny is the regional manager for the east. We have nine areas and five regions, for each of which there is a team of people. Local knowledge and involvement and working with local bodies are the ways to deal with issues. Local people know what they require, what the market is and what service they should have.

I found earlier comments interesting and agree with the welcome points made about park and ride facilities. It would be a great help to us and we want to be very much involved. We would like to get on with it as quickly as possible and make progress. We are in a three year plan and want to make considerable progress this year.

Mr. Hayes heard the discussion with the county managers. Clearly, the planning which should have taken place in recent years did not. Given that journey times have increased by 40 minutes during the past five years, the infrastructure to get people out of their cars was not put in place. What effort did Bus Éireann make during this time to move forward on the provision of park and ride facilities or improved bus priority measures? Specifically, has it made any efforts to link up with the private sector on the provision of park and ride facilities on its own initiative rather than waiting for someone else to do it?

How many of the 3,200 contracted vehicles are normal size 54 seater buses? It is interesting that Bus Éireann has a fleet of 1,440 which seems small, particularly as 3,200 more are contracted. Will Mr. Hayes briefly return to the contracting arrangement, in the light of what the Minister stated recently about having Bus Éireann and Dublin Bus meet the bulk of transport needs. How many extra buses would Bus Éireann need to provide for the growing number of services because of the modal change taking place with improved infrastructural facilities?

The use of hard shoulders is a very good idea. Who is stopping them being used more than they are? With regard to the subvention comparison, does it include the price of the bus which is heavily subsidised?

Mr. Tim Hayes

I will deal with the questions and I ask the Chairman to remind me if I miss one.

We are working with the QBN office on bus lanes. The immediate bus lane issue was city-based because this is where most traffic congestion occurs. The bus lane on the north quays has been a great help to us and improved services considerably. We have pushed on the hard shoulder issue for some time. South Dublin County Council introduced their use in Lucan a number of years ago and we saw an early benefit. The main concern with regard to the use of the hard shoulder was that some of the infrastructure was not up to taking buses. The hard shoulder of new motorways is built on better foundations.

Safety concerns are also raised. A bus could be coming up on the inside at speed and someone may need to pull in due to an emergency. This is a genuine concern to which the solution is to limit the speed of a bus to 30 mph. One sees this happening on a number of corridors.

With regard to progress on the N7, the QBN office has plans to go all the way to Naas. Ciarán de Burca has done a great deal of good work. Plans on the N3 were jointly presented to the DTO for funding. We support this move in line with our plans for improved services to County Meath.

Does this mean Bus Éireann will be allowed use the hard shoulder of the new three lane motorway to Naas as a quality bus lane?

Mr. Robert O’Mahony

We will not be able to use the hard shoulder on the M3 motorway because of safety constraints. However, we can do so on a regular dual carriageway. The best example is the N4 at the Lucan Spa Hotel where the hard shoulder was converted into a bus lane from the Spa Hotel to the M50. We propose that due to the fact that on some mornings the traffic queue starts as far back as Maynooth, the hard shoulder as far as there be turned into a bus lane during peak hours to allow buses to jump ahead of car traffic and maintain their journey times. When the bus is moving quickly, people sitting in their cars will have an impression of it being an attractive way to get in and out of the city.

Surely, as this seems to be a good and sensible approach, it should be happening everywhere. Is there a problem with the NRA or somebody else?

Mr. Robert O’Mahony

The NRA would have safety issues with regard to operating speeds. We suggested the speed limit for the bus lane be 60 km/h, the regular speed limit for a bus lane. The NRA has an issue with the speed of other traffic using the dual carriageway. Our view is that seeing as the traffic is queuing, this is not an issue.

Will Mr. O'Mahony give us his proposals because it makes eminent good sense. I travel on the Lucan route. Even if a bus could travel at 30 km/h it would be better than it sitting in traffic with everybody else. It strikes me that on approaches to every city, including Galway and Limerick, it would be sensible to allow the bus to use the hard shoulder. If Mr. O'Mahony gives us his proposal, we will take it up with the NRA.

On a point of clarification, it was mentioned that the hard shoulder on dual carriageways could be used. Dual carriageways generally have an 80 km/h speed limit minimum. Buses, presumably, are not restricted to 60 km/ph, as is proposed, or even lower. Why the conflict with a motorway, which one would assume is even safer than a dual carriageway? The logic of that does not stand up to scrutiny. The Garda and local authorities should come together and resolve that issue.

Mr. Robert O’Mahony

I agree. The question of speed limits on motorways is an issue for the NRA. We have made our submissions to that authority but they were not accepted.

I ask the delegation to come back to us on that. We are only referring here to locations where there is a traffic build up, where traffic is only crawling along. It strikes me that it would make good sense to allow the buses to use the hard shoulder at a limited speed, taking into account the issues that arise regarding safety.

Mr. Tim Hayes

The Chairman asked about the contracted buses, of which there are approximately 3,200. The vast majority of them are mini buses, and taxis in rural areas, tied to school transport. We have approximately 500 buses for the school service, which are large vehicles and we hire an average of 140 buses for the scheduled services. Our plan, under Transport 21, was to introduce 366 vehicles, 200 of which would be additional vehicles but we also had a plan for ongoing replacements, which would bring our requirement up to approximately 500 vehicles. We also envisage an expansion in the use of private operators as the network and volumes build up.

With regard to the subvention, the figures supplied are for the operating costs and do not include the capital costs. The payment we receive is less than the cost of the social service and does not cover the losses made there. There are no funds, therefore, within that to replace vehicles. The capital grants we receive from the Department, for which we thank them, provide for new buses for the public service obligation services.

They are not included in those figures?

Mr. Tim Hayes

No.

Would a comparison with a city like Milan, for example, be possible, whereby their buses are also paid for? Would their subsidy include the fact that they have to pay for their buses themselves?

Mr. Tim Hayes

I do not have the exact details on that. I will revert to the Chairman on that issue.

I welcome Mr. Hayes and his management team. I met Mr. Hayes recently and was very impressed. I read most of his presentation previously and thank him for his courtesy in supplying it.

One of the problems with using the hard shoulder is that motorways and dual carriageways have different speed limits. The four-lane road to Naas, for example, has a limit of 100 km/h, while other similar roads have limits of 120 km/ph. In that context, there are safety concerns, which everyone acknowledges. Where it can be facilitated, however, it should be. It may mean that we will have to reduce the speed limits on motorways near the cities to make it entirely safe. Would that be the main issue?

We must be clear on this matter. We are only referring to those situations where, at the end of a motorway, the traffic is crawling.

Yes, I appreciate that.

If a bus is allowed to move--

Yes, but if, for example, one is coming into Dublin from Drogheda in the morning and one is happy to get on the road at 6.30 a.m., one can travel at 120 km/ph initially. In fact, most gardaí I see are travelling at 140 km/ph. Within a 15 or 20 minute period, however, the speeds collapse and one is reduced to travelling at a crawl. There is a problem there and while I favour the principle, it must be properly managed. It must be done safely. If a car is travelling at 120 km/ph and suddenly there is an accident ahead, the driver could swerve into the hard shoulder, but if a bus is travelling in that hard shoulder, the result could be catastrophic. That is the problem. However, the principle is fine, it just needs teasing out.

Are there any buses in the fleet that are not allowed to use the Dublin Port tunnel? We have had representations regarding the 41X service. I know that is an issue for Dublin Bus, but the problem is that, despite all the controversy, Dublin Bus has not applied to the Department of Transport to use the tunnel.

Fine Gael want to see the market opened up to competition. I welcome the fact that there is a significant amount of contracting in but nevertheless, the taxpayer is paying for the service. I acknowledge the point that Bus Éireann is performing a public service in the context of much of the network. Does Bus Éireann envisage increased involvement with the private sector, in view of the fact that there are thousands of buses in the country that the company is not using at the moment but perhaps should be able to use?

In towns like Drogheda, where the railway station needs to be serviced with park and ride facilities but there is no obvious location for that, does Bus Éireann envisage providing a feeder service to such railway stations from new designated park and ride areas?

I welcome Mr. Hayes and his management team. I also thank them for a recent briefing. The chairman referred earlier to congestion points and one that comes to everyone's mind in the city itself is Amiens Street, where a considerable number of Bus Éireann buses have to pull out into the main north-south traffic coming from the north side of Dublin. Perhaps Mr. Hayes could comment on that.

The presentation makes a very powerful point about a national bus network, particularly the one based around Dundalk and the Dundalk corridor covering Dundalk, Drogheda and on into north Dublin and Fingal.

Mr. Hayes may be interested to know that our chairman was shafted in recent days by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, with regard to the issue of congestion charges. Congestion charges were all the rage until several days ago when it was announced that we will not have such charges for eight years. One must wonder why there was so much hype about congestion charges, given that we do not have the public transport networks to support them.

To return to the Dundalk corridor, it appears there is a complicated, integrated system in operation. For example, one can travel from Castlebellingham to Navan, or from Ardee to Balbriggan or central Dublin and so forth quite easily. The argument made by Bus Éireann is that if licences are to be issued for motorways and so forth but the licensing is not done correctly, we will run the risk of destroying the national bus network. If one examines the national network, one can see that it is very much national in the sense that one can travel from Kenmare to Sligo, Donegal, or the Midlands and so forth. The fundamental principle, which is not accepted by newspapers like the Sunday Business Post or by members of the two major conservative parties in the country, is that we could end up in a situation where some areas would have no public bus service if licensing is not handled correctly and in a positive way.

We had a meeting recently with private bus operators and I am struck by the number of drivers Bus Éireann employs relative to the size of its fleet. I agree with the chairman that the number of vehicles is quite small relative to the number of staff. However, the private companies suggested they had the same number of staff, approximately, as buses. One wonders how that can be the case, if one is running a full-scale service.

Does Bus Éireann have any input into the drawing up of future legislation? The Taoiseach has said we will have two Bills soon, the Dublin Transport Authority Bill and a licensing Bill. We have also been told there will be a Bill to set up a regulator, which appears to be a national public transport regulator. We may, therefore, have three relevant Bills to deal with. Has the company an input into the three Bills?

The delegation seems to advocate bus ways. In other countries, buses are used instead of spending money on rail lines. Bus Éireann is an interesting company in that Cork, Limerick and Galway are also within its bailiwick. What plans does it have for those cities? We could have devoted the entire meeting to Bus Éireann.

I will not argue with Deputy Broughan on congestion charges but given that Europe's purest socialist, Ken Livingstone, has made such a success of the issue, we will agree to differ.

Deputy Broughan is being mischievous because it was not the view of this committee that we should introduce congestion charges without the full roll-out of Transport 21 in terms of adequate buses, metro to Dublin north and Luas extensions. The Deputy is playing his usual political games but we have come to expect that from him.

I listened to the Chairman speaking in the media and thought congestion charges would be introduced next week.

When they come, Deputy Broughan will be the first to embrace them.

I am sure he will. We have stated previously that congestion charges will only be imposed when public transportation services are fully delivered, which we look forward to seeing under Transport 21.

Bus Éireann introduced an excellent service between Ratoath, Dublin Airport and DCU but there is no connection with Dublin Bus. By using the No. 102 service between Sutton DART station and the airport, people could transfer to the Bus Éireann service to DCU and passengers from Meath could continue to Swords, Malahide and Portmarnock. I would like to see more joined up thinking in that regard. I am aware the two companies are separate entities but if we are to improve orbital routes, linkages must be made to provide transport users with the best possible options. Passengers could transfer to the Dart if the Ratoath service connected with the No. 102.

In respect of the Drogheda-Balbriggan-Dublin route, I receive regular complaints that the bus does not enter Balbriggan and frequently avoids Balrothery. It appears to keep to the M1 motorway even though it is a designated service for these areas. I would like an explanation for this because it has become a major bone of contention.

For all the perceived problems of Bus Éireann, it contracts a substantial number of private operators. We have discussed the possibility of Dublin Bus introducing similar practices as a response to the immediate need for an additional 300 buses. I commend Bus Éireann on utilising an existing resource without incurring substantial capital costs. Dublin Bus might learn in that regard.

Reference was made to the port tunnel. For the past four months, I have been hounding the Department of Transport to find out when the No. 41X service from Swords in my constituency will be able to use the tunnel, only to find out that Dublin Bus has not sought a licence for it. It is galling that a public transport operator could claim it was being hard done by and blame the Government for favouritism and delays in granting the licence. This should not happen.

I ask members to be brief. We must meet two other delegations and we have exceeded our allotted time.

I thank Bus Éireann for its report and welcome its plans. When will capacity on the Kilcock-Dublin route be increased and when will the Newbridge-Naas-Kill-Dublin route be put on a 15 minute basis at peak times? When the company takes on foreign drivers, do they undergo a training and testing process before driving?

I thank Bus Éireann for the courtesy it has shown in response to submissions my staff and I have made regarding the Meath constituency. It is always a pleasure to work with them. There is a great future for bus services and I will promote them in any way I can.

This morning I received telephone calls from four of the parents of children who lost their lives in the Kentstown bus crash. They are disappointed the episode has not been concluded but appreciate the way Bus Éireann has dealt with them. They would be grateful if a way could be found to progress the matter.

Deputy McEntee should not have mentioned the Kentstown matter because the trial pertaining to it was postponed today.

I too welcome Bus Éireann and compliment it on its efficiency. The girl employed in my office has a great working relationship with Bus Éireann, for which I am grateful. Has any progress been made on my request that the Navan-Dublin Airport-DCU service be extended to Kells? What is the status of the park and ride facility in Kells and when will a double decker buses serve the town? I commend the company on the present service from the town, which departs every 15 minutes at peak times.

Mr. Tim Hayes

A question was raised about using hard shoulders. We run seven routes, or 100 buses per day, through the port tunnel. We have obtained licences for other routes to go through the tunnel and two will be in within a month. Another four will be going through the tunnel in approximately four months. Other licences are with the Department for operating through the tunnel. The plan is to bring these in and in some cases up to the south side, towards St. Stephen's Green, to where people are working. They will serve not just the north side of the city but the south side also.

We have increased the level of contractors in the past ten years by approximately 1,000 vehicles, with the number going from approximately 2,000 to 3,200. That is very much focused on the school transport side, where we are hiring smaller vehicles, particularly for special needs services. We have also expanded significantly in the use of private operators for the provision of scheduled services. There are probably 40 or 50 buses in every day in Dublin at this time of the year. That commenced significantly in about 2000.

All the vehicles we hire must meet a certain standard and meet requirements regarding tax, insurance, tax clearance certificates etc. Deputy O'Dowd raised the valid point about Drogheda and its rail service. We are looking at the matter and we will certainly discuss with Deputy O'Dowd how the service to the rail station can be developed. We must examine our networks there and streamline the service. We take the Deputy's point fully on board and we will speak to him about it.

We have a national network and licences are clearly a policy issue. We must recognise that there should be a balanced approach between providing services on motorways which are needed and maintaining services to secondary locations, which is also very important. Approximately 20% of all business travels from one small location to the other.

For example, last year in six months eight people travelled from Tyrellspass to Knock Airport, using three services to get there. Four people went from Tyrellspass to Castlerea, involving two vehicles. There may be people travelling from Abbeyfeale to Birr, Shannon to Ballina, Shannon to Kenmare, Birr to Callan. Many people use interlinking timetables from the smaller locations. It is really the connection of one small location to a range of other locations all over the country, not just the big towns and cities.

As Deputy Broughan noted, it is a complex issue but we have a system in place that works. There was a question about the numbers of buses and drivers. On a school transport service, one driver a week is used because they work morning and evening, five days a week. On a city service, there would have to be at least two drivers a week because within driving hours, a driver can only work about five and half days, with a 48 hours time period. The buses go morning and evening and the routes have to be covered seven days a week. Therefore, there can be more than two drivers.

On a city operation, if there are 100 buses, we need approximately 200 to 250 drivers. On top of that certain maintenance staff are required. These are the approximate ratios.

We were also asked about busways. Perhaps the committee does not have time today but we would like to discuss bus rapid transit, which we are working on for the provincial cities, particularly Mr. Sheehan and his team. This is basically a tram on wheels, which does not need infrastructure or the city to be dug up. It provides a similar service at lower cost and is very flexible.

Deputy Kennedy asked about liaising with Bus Átha Cliath on route 102, which Mr. O'Mahony will speak on. I thank the Deputy for his help and contribution in putting in the Balbriggan town service. If there are details about vehicles which are not staying to their route, we would like them to follow the issue up. We have services that operate on the motorway from Dundalk and Drogheda and people may get confused. There are services on what I call the old roads through Drogheda, Balbriggan and Dublin.

It is the old road I am talking about.

Mr. Tim Hayes

There is a service on both. They are two different routes and timetables. If there is information, we will follow up on it as buses should certainly operate to the routes they are on.

I have covered the use of the port tunnel. Mr. O'Mahony will cover the position regarding Kilcock and Newbridge because he is involved in the details. With regard to foreign drivers, all drivers working with us must go through a detailed process. They must have a qualified driving licence and go through an interview and psychometric test, as well as a driving test. They must also have a medical. They receive two weeks' training and more if necessary. They are then on probation for a year and monitored right through that period by specialised training instructors who themselves are trained to the highest international standards.

All drivers are advised and trained to advanced motoring level, the highest level we can achieve. They are also encouraged to undertake tests in that area and every two years they get a refresher course. We have a very extensive recruitment and training programme, particularly from a safety point of view. We have 22 specialised training instructors throughout the company who train and monitor drivers.

We are running out of time. I ask for a quick comment on the points made, and if there is further detail it can be put in writing to individual Deputies.

Mr. Robert O’Mahony

Route 126 is between Naas and Dublin and Kilcock and Dublin. Our plan is for those routes to be introduced in mid 2008, May or June of this year. With regard to Dublin Bus route 102 from Malahide, I have spoken to Dublin Bus and the matter has been raised with us. We are looking to move the issue forward.

With regard to route 109A and the extension to Kells, at the moment that route has only been in place for approximately two months and we are just bedding it down. As the route develops we will definitely look to extending that service to Kells and potentially a park and ride site in Kells.

We would go into other issues, including the contract, but for time constraints. There are a number of issues. We appreciate the delegation coming in and it is fair to say we are happy with the progress Bus Éireann is making.

We take it there will be a significant increase in the demand for bus commuter traffic from the four counties, and further afield, and that Bus Éireann will have no problem in coming up with the buses to meet that demand.

Mr. Tim Hayes

We very much hope so. I thank the committee for inviting us in and we would be very pleased to come back at any stage to discuss any issues and supply any information. We brought a pack along containing local information such as timetables. There is also a brochure for our Transport 21 plans for the Dublin area and local leaflets and information.

A bus pass would be good.

I thank the delegation. We will perhaps have them back later in the year to speak about bus rapid transit and some of the other issues.

I welcome the delegates from OK Transportincluding Mr. Alan Kerry, manager, Mr. Oliver Dunne, director, Mr. Frank Moran, director, Mr. Pat Leogue, company secretary and their colleagues. They are here at the invitation of Deputy Áine Brady. There are time constraints. Department of Justice, Equality Law and Reform officials are also attending, so I ask the witnesses to make a presentation as succinctly as possible. We have received documentation from the delegates, which we can study.

Mr. Alan Kerry

I will ask our company secretary, Mr. Pat Leogue, to make our presentation.

Mr. Pat Leogue

I thank the committee members and Deputy Brady for the opportunity to attend this meeting. Committee members may be aware of the rural transport programme and OK Transport is one of 34 projects funded by it. The area served by OK Transport has seen significant population growth since it was established in 2002 and in this way it may differ from other projects. We cover an area east of Tullamore that includes the rest of Offaly and Kildare and the population, which is almost 54,000, has grown by 19% since the last census and grew by 45% between 1996 and 2006.

The rural transport programme has become known as a service that has primarily met the needs of older people in the past five years but in preparing our recent strategic plan we found that the issue of the needs of commuters in north Kildare and around Edenderry has come to the fore. This is something we have dealt with recently. Apart from providing services for people without independent means of transport, we provide two daily services to the National University of Ireland, NUI, Maynooth for third level students. We have a contract with the Health Service Executive, HSE, relating to day care services in Naas.

OK Transport takes a partnership approach to membership; Bus Éireann is represented on our board as are local authorities, the HSE and community organisations and this has been of immense benefit to us. Greater co-ordination across transport services is needed. As we try to establish services for commuters the need for co-operation between Iarnród Éireann, Bus Éireann, local authorities, private operators and OK Transport becomes apparent.

We have tried to make use of the available transport fleet where possible and most of our services are provided by private operators, though we own a bus and have leased another. OK Transport operates where the private and public sectors cannot due to market failure. The community transport sector deserves the same respect as the private and public sectors because we are capable of providing as professional a service as anyone else and cross-sector co-ordination is needed. Most of the people in the area who wish to work must commute towards the greater Dublin area so it is important that the different transport services communicate with each other.

If people in the region are to have a decent quality of life the use of cars must be limited; we have tried to increase the use of bus and rail services in recent years.

Does OK Transport own all of the vehicles involved or is it a co-operative arrangement? I welcome the initiative of seeking greater co-operation with Iarnród Éireann and the Dublin Transportation Office, DTO, and ask the witnesses to comment further on how this is succeeding.

I thank Mr. Leogue and the members of OK Transport for this presentation. I am interested in this subject because OK Transport has evolved its strategy to meet the changing needs of the community. In recent years north Kildare has seen huge demographic changes and, consequently, huge changes in commuting practices. Connectivity to train stations is a large issue in public transport throughout the country but particularly in north Kildare, where there are two major rail links.

Can the witnesses clarify that once OK Transport's services are running they can be taken over by a commercial operator?

I warmly welcome OK Transport, which offers transport in Offaly and Kildare. Is this a community-based initiative? My work in my constituency and before I entered politics familiarised me with community-based economic initiatives that tried to provide new services. For example, in my constituency there is a security company that does some commercial work also. Is OK Transport a private company that carries out a community function?

We find it astonishing to see the derisory amount of funding allocated by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív, to the rural transport initiative. Do the witnesses have ideas on what more can be done in this regard? Could the OK Transport model be rolled out across the midlands and Ireland? I commend the witnesses on the work they do.

I also welcome the members of OK Transport. I do not know whether the witnesses sought to appear before this committee or were invited to do so because I am not a member of it.

Deputy Áine Brady responded to a request.

Regarding the need for the early morning bus connections, are the witnesses referring to every town and village in the region served by OK Transport or is the need greater in certain areas? I am sure the parking issue we discussed earlier still applies in large towns so how is this addressed? The presentation and the Chairman referred to the need for co-operation with other agencies. Has there been success in this regard or are the witnesses here to ask committee members to discuss with such agencies the possibility of putting a more formal co-operative structure in place?

The documents circulated by the witnesses refer to the potential for the development of services for young people, particularly in the evening and on weekends. I do not wish to go off the point but some of the presentation referred to education; are the witnesses referring to the potential for socialisation? If so, why not stretch this aspect to older members of the community?

The witnesses will be aware of the major discussions that took place last year on drink driving, rural isolation and so on. Do they feel OK Transport should provide a service for people who wish to socialise at night or at the weekend? Has this been examined yet?

Mr. Pat Leogue

I shall ask a couple of my colleagues to make some comments. Mr. Moran is a private operator and Mr. Dunne is a member of the local community. With regard to the point about owning buses, most of the work we do is with the private operators in the area. We own one bus and we lease another. As I said at the outset, it is important that we see ourselves as between the private the public sectors. We are not in competition with either but wish to make use of the available fleet in the area. Mr. Kerry might make the point that while we might have started out catering mainly for older people during the times between school bus services, the needs of the community and the services that people want have grown quite a bit.

To answer Deputy Broughan's question, there are about ten projects in the country, out of a total of 34, which operate as social enterprises and receive funding through what was the social economy programme but is now the community services programme. We operate as a social enterprise by providing services at low cost to some groups, but we also have a service contract with the HSE to provide services to the day care service in Naas.

What I did not mention at the start was that we have had an excellent relationship with Bus Éireann. When we considered the needs in our area, we looked at where services were required and we first went to Bus Éireann, which expanded its services. This was done without any great additional costs because it involved simply changing the way in which some things were done. From a time when we had no services to Tullamore from Edenderry and five daily services from Edenderry to Dublin, we now have 19 services per day, on the hour, from Edenderry to Dublin, six services daily from Tullamore to Edenderry, and also a couple of daily services from Rathangan to Dublin.

Is it cheaper for OK Transport to run these bus services than if Bus Éireann were to run them itself?

Mr. Pat Leogue

Our belief is that public transport providers should provide a service in the first instance. We are only there to fill gaps where either the private or the public sector cannot provide a service. The public sector, representatives of which have been on our board from the start, has filled the gap it could fill from its own point of view. We have attempted to fill the other gaps and bring people to the main public service routes. It is quite simple, I suppose, in that the--

How is that done?

Mr. Pat Leogue

There is quite a good public service. The main road network runs through our area from Tullamore to Edenderry to Clane. Many of the communities are quite a distance from that main route and sometimes it is a matter of getting people to the main route. If we consider the situation in Kildare, many of the services are based in Naas, the county town. Many of the public services are in places where Bus Éireann does not operate across the county on a cross-radial basis. That is where community-based transport operates.

Does the company help out with the logistics? Mr. Leogue is saying the company brings people to the main bus route. Does it physically take them there? Do they pay? How is it done? The idea is very good.

Mr. Pat Leogue

I shall give some examples. People who want access to county towns can use our bus services to get to the Bus Éireann route. We have also tried from the start to publicise and encourage the use of public transport and community transport. We encourage commuters to use our services to get to rail stations or to the public bus route. The point has been made that one can be 15 minutes late for the library or the tax office but being 15 minutes late to catch the train to go to work is a different story. People's confidence in public transport must be built over a period of time. It is not something that starts--

Is the company an advocate?

Mr. Pat Leogue

We are a service provider for the small gaps that are there. We recently got some funding from the dormant accounts fund for a seven-seater MPV, which means that we can do small runs down roads that large buses could not service.

I will ask Mr. Kerry to answer some of the other questions.

Mr. Alan Kerry

On the question about the ownership of vehicles, as Mr. Leogue said, we currently own our own community bus, which is a 16-seat wheelchair-accessible Mercedes Sprinter. We have one leased bus which is of the same specification and we have the use of a fleet of seven private operators. Overall, we have access to vehicles with from 14 to 54 seats. As Mr. Leogue also said, we have secured funding from the dormant accounts fund to obtain a seven-seater wheelchair-accessible vehicle, which will bring us into a new area.

A question was asked about the viability of our routes. As the main base of our budget is funding, we see ourselves as a forum for the community which is in a position to put on and subsidise services to deal with issues around transport that are brought to us. We hope that some day all our routes, whether they are for commuters, shoppers or patients, will become viable and at that stage we can hand them over to private operators to take as their own concerns.

Does the company not have to go through a licensing process? It is effectively creating these routes.

Mr. Alan Kerry

That is correct.

Does the company have to inform the Department of Transport of its intention to run a route from, say, Coill Dubh to Newbridge?

Mr. Alan Kerry

No. The reason is that we operate the majority of our services on a door-to-door basis. People are picked up from their doors and brought home to the door. On that subject, we now have our second service carrying students to NUI, Maynooth. The way in which we think of it is that if one is two miles from a bus stop one might as well be 20 miles away. The advantage of our service is that it takes away the need for parents to be there in the mornings and the evenings to drop children off at and collect them from bus stops. We think we have hit on a successful approach in that the services are door-to-door. As the majority of our current passengers are of an older age group, it is definitely of assistance to them to get them right to the door and back onto the vehicle.

Have the representatives ever come across the Flexibus in County Meath?

Mr. Alan Kerry

We have.

It is a top-class service and it is growing. Funding or part-funding for services of this type is crucial. People's lives have been turned inside out. As was rightly pointed out, the service can cater for older people or younger people going to the pictures at night. The bus could pick up a group of 20 lads provided there was somebody with them.

Mr. Alan Kerry

Correct.

I know exactly where the representatives are coming from and they should be encouraged.

Mr. Alan Kerry

I thank the Deputy.

Moving on to Deputy Áine Brady's comments, parking is currently an issue at Maynooth train station. We heard about this new issue in our most recent consultations with the public for our strategic plan for 2008-10, which was submitted to Pobal on 31 January for approval following consultations in December and January. As rural transport providers this is something we had to recognise and act on.

The population of a Rathangan village, for example, rose from 800 to 1,200 between 1996 and 2006, which is quite an increase. The extra people are generally commuters living in new houses and estates. As we consider what people are telling us through our consultations, we do recognise that the train station issue is something to which we may be able to provide a solution.

Deputy Enright asked a question about towns and villages.

I think the representatives have answered it.

Mr. Alan Kerry

That is fair enough. A question was asked about the need for co-operation. Bus Éireann has become a major player in our organisation in terms of obtaining advice, deciding on what direction to take and co-operation.

With regard to the routes that we can provide, if there is a main service going to a major urban centre, such as Dublin or Galway, from Edenderry, we see our role as being in the outer areas of Edenderry. We can provide a service there, bring people to the bus stop and take them back again.

What about a service at night time for young people who would be out in pubs etc?

Mr. Pat Leogue

Almost 40% of our population is under 25 and this issue has come up frequently in consultations. We forget that as towns are growing, facilities tend to be located at the edge of our towns, not merely shopping facilities but also social ones. If a person wants to go to the cinema in Naas, it is now located at the edge of the motorway. Young people going into Naas are now getting taxis home. The car is again put into operation. Older people and young people alike are driving to the railway station and leaving their cars there, limiting the use of the car for other members of the family. A solution that provides transport from the home frees up the use of that vehicle. We have had many comments from young people and from their parents over the past few weeks. They said that it would be a great bonus to have a bus so that young people can go out independently and safely to socialise. There are few socialising opportunities for young people in rural areas.

Mr. Oliver Dunne

With regard to Deputy Broughan's point about funding, we are always happy to get more. Having said that, I believe we have given a cost-effective service for the funding received to date. In my work as community representative and as director, I have seen at first hand what it was like when the community had a poor level of access to third-level education. As a result of the initiative by OK Transport, we are now operating two systems to NUI Maynooth, working in partnership with the university. The ethos of OK Transport is to work together with various interested parties to deliver a service that is required by the general public. It is also the case that we operate in a large rural area where smaller buses are more cost effective, more environmentally friendly. We are the first point of contact for most customers who now travel by bus. We can deliver them to Bus Éireann and private operator services. I hope that eventually we will link up with Iarnród Éireann and have a greater impact.

Regarding the funding, we would obviously like to have more of it, but I feel we have done a good job for what we have received. I believe we are making an outstanding contribution to our area.

It is a very impressive set up and the representatives are to be congratulated on their initiative. They are all volunteers. The committee will do what it can to further the concept. I am sure that the representatives have had contact with other Departments as well, such as the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs.

From a transport perspective, this committee would find it useful to receive some written details of the services provided and the costs to those involved, so that the transport system can be demonstrated as offering good value. Clearly the logistical detail provided indicates that many more people can be accommodated. The committee will try to push this formula so that it may expand into other areas. The committee may have a discussion with the Minister for Transport on the matter to see if there is potential to be more supportive. It is definitely worthwhile and the representatives are to be complimented. I thank them.

Barr
Roinn