JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 2008

Speed Cameras: Discussion with Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

Chairman

I apologise to the officials from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, my former Department. I welcome them and thank them for coming.

Before we begin, I draw the attention of witnesses to the fact that members of the committee have privilege when speaking but this parliamentary privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are advised of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Members are also reminded that civil servants, while giving evidence to the committee, may not question or express an opinion on the merits of any Government policy or its objectives or produce or send to the committee any document in which a civil servant, a member of the Defence Forces or a member of the Garda Síochána, questions or expresses any opinion on the merits of any Government policy or policy objectives.

There is hardly any need for me to say that to officials from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

I propose that the Secretary General give the committee a short presentation and I believe there is good news.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I thank the Chairman. I propose, as a courtesy to the committee, to dispense with my prepared remarks and say for the record that there had been a difficulty, but this difficulty was cleared up at Cabinet yesterday. We got the green light to go ahead and put this system into operation. What happens next is that we will seek and get the formal sanction of the Department of Finance, reflecting the Government's decision. That is a procedural matter. Then the Garda Commissioner will pin down, with the preferred bidder, the roll-out of this system. That is a matter I can take questions on, although I am not a technical person. We are now moving into action mode having had an earlier problem about the scale of the cost of this project. We now have the clearance from Government to go ahead, funding has been secured and we are ready to move forward. I could say more but the committee has my paper and I propose to finish at this juncture and to take questions.

Chairman

It is only fair to acknowledge Deputy O'Dowd's contribution to the solution of this issue by raising it as he has done on a number of occasions. I can be bipartisan and say that he has focused the Department's mind and, more important, the Government's mind. That it has been raised for discussion today, and a positive decision is to be made, is no coincidence. The Deputy is to be congratulated.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

If the Chairman lived in my constituency, I know I could rely on his No. 1 vote. I appreciate his comments. How many fixed-speed penalties does the Department expect per annum with this system? The role of IBI is unclear to me. Who is the preferred bidder?

Mr. Seán Aylward

The preferred bidder's name has not been made public yet. The name the Deputy mentioned was the firm of consultants who advised us on the project.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I am trying to understand the process.

Mr. Seán Aylward

On the second issue, 200,000 notices issue per year. They are based on the hand-held and mobile units used by the Garda. It is difficult to estimate the increase in the volume of notices. Our purpose is to modify driver behaviour, particularly at 600 blackspots around the State and, through signage and enforcement, reduce the level of speeding. If all the signage, notification and the consequent publicity generated is ignored, we have the technical capacity to issue hundreds of thousands of extra fines every year. However, it is not our intention to generate income through notices, but to reduce speeding. It would generate a bad headline if I were to throw out a figure. Our intention is for people to take the foot off the accelerator.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Is the Secretary General prepared to give the committee figures?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I would prefer not to, because it could be misleading and give the impression that we are trying to dredge up money.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Can I give the Secretary General some figures, because we want to get to the core of this issue? We are an Oireachtas committee and although I respect the Secretary General of the Department and his professionalism, his refusal to give a figure is not acceptable and I am not happy with that answer.

It is not that I disagree with the principle of what he is enunciating. I agree we want people to modify their behaviour and we want fewer people killed and injured on our roads. That is critical. The key point - and I am not blaming the Secretary General for this, it is a political issue - has not been addressed. The Secretary General said that under the current system, some 200,000 fixed-penalty charges issued per annum. Of those, approximately 40% are paid and the rest go to court. For the first six months of 2007, 88,000 people did not pay within 56 days, which meant 88,000 cases had to go to court. After 56 days, if the fixed-penalty notice is not paid, there is no further opportunity to pay. Neither the Garda nor the courts can take money after that period, the case must go to court. The District Court deals with approximately 100,000 cases at present. Of the 88,000 summonses issued during that six month period, half of those, 43,707, were not served. The cases never came to court. I am not criticising the Garda and I do not expect it to chase 40,000 people around the country, but the summonses were not served. The system is not working at all. Of the 88,000 issued for court only 14,000 ended up with a fine.

I do not have a problem with the proposed system but we need legislative reform before the work can be done. If we cannot remove those who incur fixed-penalties from the court system I believe the District Court system will collapse. I stress this is not a criticism of the Secretary General or the Courts Service, but we need reform of the courts system and the fixed-penalty charge system.

Perhaps we ought to have in the Department a move to reform the system where, after 56 days when a case should proceed to court, there could be a third period where the fine might be increased. Fixed-penalty charge cases should never go to court. I am concerned that if and when cameras are introduced - I support their introduction - the courts will end up clogged and the vast majority of people who incur penalties will never actually pay. Of the people who end up in court only a very small proportion will actually end up paying so I would like reform of that system in conjunction with the process that is ongoing. With the introduction of speed cameras we must reform the system for it to work effectively. Is the Secretary General saying there is no figure whatsoever for the projected numbers?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I want to put on record that I am working on the philosophy that we are not seeking to increase the number of penalties imposed. I was not going to set a target for the number of fines imposed. I am happy to say the system would have the capacity, with traffic volumes and the number of hours, to issue half a million penalties. I do not want to be pedantic but I want to make the point that it would have that capacity.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I accept that.

Mr. Seán Aylward

It is not our objective to reach that capacity. Our objective is through a series of measures to drive down the speeding phenomenon. On the other points, we are alive to the difficulties in the courts system and the summonsing system. We have been in dialogue with the Courts Service about that matter. The Department of Transport is monitoring this as well. There is talk of graduated penalties for people who frivolously either refuse to pay or contest the penalty. There are certain legislative options open to the Department of Transport. I am sure, if I may quote Churchill in this room "the resources of civilisation are not yet exhausted" when it comes to tackling this phenomenon of people trying to dodge the consequences of their behaviour.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The facts are that of those who dodge and do not pay and go to court, only about one fifth end up actually paying in the end. The whole system is in disrepute, which is not to say that people are acting with anything but total integrity. However, of the 88,000 cases that went to court, 14,000 ended up with a fine. I support what the Secretary General says and I have no difficulty with that. The District Courts will be clogged up, so does the Secretary General anticipate there will be concurrent reform of the system in conjunction with the introduction of cameras?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I do, because we are working all the time to try to support the courts in becoming more efficient and effective. The law of the land must be upheld. We have a difficulty because we are a very constitutional, structured society and people are entitled to their day in court. That is a fundamental element of our system. It is at the heart of our liberty and we are stuck with it even in the case of multiple traffic offences. It is a process that can be abused by defaulters.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

They are getting away with it.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I have devoted considerable efforts in the past to nail some of the more persistent defaulters. In an earlier incarnation, about 20 years ago in the Department of Justice I organised an event with the Garda where we put people on motorbikes specifically to nail people who were defying the system with impunity. The Garda Síochána and the Department are not without resources. We have many more motorbikes and people now at our disposal than in the past. In my prisons job, I made an example of people who had refused to pay the fine who thought they would be turned out the door and be let go out of prison immediately. Persistent traffic offenders have been made to serve every day, just to show them they could not defy the system. It is a struggle. We are dealing with big volumes. It is not something about which we are in denial. We are focused on it. We will come forward with our colleagues in the Courts Service to try to deal with this phenomenon.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Will it require legislation?

Mr. Seán Aylward

If the legislative option has to be invoked the Department of Transport will not be found wanting.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I have no doubt about that. What is the timescale for these cameras? After due process when is it expected they will be physically located around the country?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I want to be very careful about that--

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I understand.

Mr. Seán Aylward

- -because I am not negotiating directly with the fitter. We are talking about 600 locations around the country all of which will have to be signposted and so on. There is another issue. To calibrate and get this right, the project will involve extensive use of the speed cameras to monitor speeding patterns in certain black spots. It will enable us to see where there are persistent breaches of the speed limit, and if the speed limit set for that area is appropriate. There is a calibration period that could be quite extensive. We do not want allegations against the Garda Síochána and the people delivering the new system that we are shooting fish in the barrel, that we are nailing people at a site where the speed limit is inappropriately low.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Yes, that is a fair point.

Mr. Seán Aylward

Part of this relates to tweaking the speed limit in the location so that it is set at the right level and that it is enforceable, safe and appropriate. Because of the complexity of that phase, I do not want to put a precise timeframe on it. Much depends on the contractors' capacity to deliver what is required of them in the contract.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Can Mr. Aylward give us some idea?

Chairman

Will it be six months, the end of the year or next year?

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

To put it another way, a commitment was given in the road safety strategy for the second quarter of 2008. Is Mr. Aylward saying that will not be achieved?

Mr. Seán Aylward

We will not achieve that because we encountered a difficulty in regard to the finances but--

Chairman

Give us an idea. Are we talking about, perhaps, the end of the year?

Mr. Seán Aylward

I certainly cannot see this coming into place before the fourth quarter of 2008.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Is it--

Mr. Seán Aylward

This is a project of considerable complexity.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

I appreciate your indulgence, Chairman. The key point is that if it is introduced, even in the fourth quarter, and there is not administrative change before it commences the whole project will be in total and absolute disrepute.

Chairman

The Secretary General has acknowledged the concerns. I suggest the Secretary General report back to the committee on those issues in the months ahead in the context of the regulatory or legislative framework that may or may not be necessary.

Deputy Shane McEntee

I welcome the announcement that the tender is in place. As Fine Gael spokesperson on road safety I should say it will be one of the biggest projects to help reduce road deaths. Some 26% of road fatalities are due to speed. The bottom line is that for every day this project is delayed people will die. I welcome the clarification on the tender process being announced today. In regard to the timescale, the longer it goes on the more deaths will take place. The Garda Síochána in each district already know where these places are. Now is not the time for the Garda to go and look at them. I suggest we stick to a programme where by the end of 2008 they will be in place. Perhaps the Secretary General would keep us updated on that matter. I welcome it. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has all our support from this side of the House, and especially from the Fine Gael side, in ensuring this project is put in place.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

It has been a long meeting and this is a very important subject. I had to speak in the Dáil on another important subject but I warmly welcome the announcement on behalf of the Labour Party. The public did not understand this issue in the context that the overall costs issue seems to have been a total "no-brainer". While I was out the committee dealt with the issue of costs. It did not seem that this could be an issue vis-à-vis the situation on the roads and it was clear to us from the examples that a huge segment of the population does not observe speed limits. There are many problems in regard to speed limits and signage. I agree with my colleague that we should not reinvent the wheel. Everybody knows the key locations as there is a detailed analysis of them. It is still disappointing to hear the project was delayed and that it will be further delayed.

Chairman

I thank the Secretary General and his officials. One of the aspects of the programme that is fair, and is to be welcomed, is that the 600 locations will be identified and signposted. It will not be a question of shooting fish in a barrel. That a large number of motorists are still caught for speeding, let us hope nobody here is caught, is a significant factor and surely will contribute to the reduction in road fatalities.

Mr. Seán Aylward

It is important to remind ourselves that in the 1960s and 1970s there were horrific number of road fatalities. Some 628 people died on Irish roads in 1978, which was the first year I worked in Leinster House. Last year, with three times as many cars on the roads, 338 people died on our roads. We are getting something right as a people. This is not seeking credit for anybody. As a people, notwithstanding the fact that there is--

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

Even one death is too many.

Mr. Seán Aylward

I agree.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

That is because we had crazy systems and no controls and obviously a great deal of drink driving and so on in the 1960s. It does not constrain us, we have got to get this right. There are EU targets to be reached and we need to change the culture.

Chairman

Unless there are any other specific issues the committee will adjourn.

The joint committee adjourned at 7.18 p.m. until 3.45 p.m. on Wednesday, 12 March 2008.