I welcome Mr. Fred Barry, chief executive of the National Roads Authority, Mr. Hugh Creegan, commercial operations and strategic planning manager for public private partnerships, and Mr. Michael Egan, director of corporate affairs. Before asking you to make your submission, I wish to draw your attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members of the committee are reminded of the parliamentary practice that Members should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person outside the House or any official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I invite Mr. Barry to make his presentation.
Dublin Port Tunnel: Discussion with NRA.
Mr. Fred Barry
I thank the Chairman and the committee for the opportunity to give an update on the Dublin Port tunnel. In the 12 months since our last appearance before the committee on 7 March 2007, the Dublin Port tunnel has become a fundamental part of the city's transport infrastructure. Close to 5 million vehicles have passed through the tunnel since it opened, about 2.5 million of which were heavy goods vehicles. All of these are journeys which, prior to the tunnel, would have been made through the city streets.
The opening of the tunnel enabled the implementation of the HGV management strategy for Dublin city. Following the introduction of that strategy in February of last year, everyone in Dublin will have witnessed the beneficial impact that transferring the trucks to the tunnel has had. Since the tunnel opened, truck traffic along the city quays has been dramatically reduced, with an 89% reduction in five-axle vehicles on North Wall Quay during cordon hours. On the south side of the city, Sean Moore Road approaching the East Link bridge has correspondingly seen an 84% reduction in five-axle traffic. The tunnel has also benefited public transport. The removal of truck traffic from the city quays facilitated the introduction of new bus corridors along the quays. As a result, Dublin Bus has indicated improved journey times of up to 15 minutes along these routes.
As with any new complex piece of infrastructure, the first 15 months of operation has presented challenges and has been a learning experience for both the operators and tunnel users. The operators have had to deal with vehicles performing U-turns in the tunnel, over-height vehicles trying to enter the tunnel, an animal loose in the tunnel, a pedestrian on the motorway approach as well as numerous vehicle breakdowns and individual vehicle events. Many of these were brief events lasting only minutes but all had to be dealt with.
In addition to this there were two minor vehicle fire events in 2007; in both cases the vehicles were able to drive out of the tunnel. There have been a further two fire events in 2008, one on 10 March where the vehicle again drove out of the tunnel and one more significant event on 11 March where a truck suspension went on fire in the northbound tube. In all cases the operating staff, in conjunction with the emergency services, properly and effectively dealt with the incidents. The tunnel has had several unscheduled closures of 30 minutes or more in 2008. Of these, two were triggered by vehicle issues, two were system issues and two were due to external electrical supply issues.
Overall the level of availability of the tunnel, excluding scheduled maintenance closures, is over 98%. Our objective is to achieve as close to 100% as possible but while we can, and are, addressing system reliability issues, the availability of the tunnel is governed to a significant degree by user behaviour and vehicle breakdowns which are outside our control.
Safety has always been the priority focus for the Dublin Port tunnel. During construction, approximately 5,000 people worked on the project accumulating about 7.5 million person hours with an exemplary safety record. That approach has continued into the operating phase where an experienced tunnel operator has been appointed to manage the tunnel, the full safety features required under the European directive on tunnel safety have been implemented and a dedicated 24 hour, seven day per week fire crew from Dublin city fire brigade with a special tunnel fire vehicle has been put in place 1 km away from the tunnel portals.
There have been technical difficulties with some aspects of the tunnel systems. This is not unusual for a new, complex and unique project. These issues are being dealt with. Where technical difficulties have required us to implement tunnel closures we have done so, and will continue to do so. Members of the committee who attended the meeting last March will recall a strong degree of scepticism being expressed as to whether there would be any significant growth in the volume of traffic using the tunnel. We are pleased to confirm that traffic volumes have grown by approximately 50% year on year, and are continuing to grow. The growth in use by public transport is particularly notable, with up to 1,000 bus journeys through the tunnel daily.
The tunnel has been a marvellous contribution to the transportation system in Dublin. It is among the first in Europe to be built and operated in full compliance with the EU safety directive and we are confident it will continue to play a vital role in the transportation system in Dublin for generations to come.
Allegations were made in the "Prime Time" programme about safety in the tunnel. I subsequently heard Mr. Hugh Creegan state on a radio programme that these were incorrect. Will Mr. Barry deal with the more serious allegations made and indicate whether they are correct?
Mr. Fred Barry
A number of allegations were made. One was that pedestrian access or fire doors were blocked. This was due to a misunderstanding on the part of the reporters about the difference between pedestrian and vehicle access doors. On that issue, we advised everybody subsequently that a number of the vehicle access doors were blocked — that is the operator doing his business — and none of the fire doors was blocked at any time. I remind the committee that the fire brigade escorts petrol tankers through the tunnel, sometimes at 20 minute intervals. Fire officers travel up and down the tunnel all day every day. If anybody was blocking doors, including us, the fire department would have something to say about it. The fact it has not speaks for itself.
The second issue was perhaps again due to confusion on the part of the reporters. They had access to limited documentation on the tunnel's operations, which referred to a breakdown in communications between SCADA, the computerised control system, and certain fans. They made the assumption that the fans were out of action rather than the communication links being down. When the communication links go down between the main computer controlling the systems and the fans, manual control panels in the tunnel are manned. Provided that is done, there is full control over the fans and, therefore, no safety hazard. There was a misunderstanding on the part of the RTE reporters that if the communication link was down, it equated to the fans being out of action. They had commentary from others but this was based on a hypothetical scenario in which multiple fans were out of action, which was not the case.
They also had a concern that when a decision was made to close the tunnel, the NRA was part and parcel of the decision. They must only have been given access to part of the operating manuals for the tunnel. It is stated at the front of the operation manuals in bold letters that the operator is required to refer to the NRA when situations such as this occur because it is the statutory authority in this matter under the EU directive. The operator very properly referred to us when situations required judgments. The judgments made in the cases in question were, provided that the fans were operated from the manual stations or appropriate measures were taken in other instances mentioned, it was perfectly safe and reasonable for the tunnel operation to continue.
Is Mr. Barry satisfied all precautions have been taken in the tunnel? Is he absolutely satisfied about safety in the tunnel and that the procedures applying to the tunnel are no different from those applied in similar tunnels throughout Europe?
Mr. Fred Barry
I would go further than that. This is one of the first tunnels in Europe to be designed, built and operated under the latest EU safety directive. It is ahead of most tunnels in Europe.
I welcome the delegation. I thank the authority for facilitating my meeting with Mr. Creegan, a visit to the operations section of the tunnel and a meeting with the tunnel operators.
I refer to the supervisory, control and data acquisition system, SCADA. As I understand it, the problem is that from 1 January 2007 to 29 February 2008, the tunnel has been closed 20 times due to breakdowns, vehicle fires, technical malfunction, near misses and so on. However, five of those closures have been due to the SCADA system failing, in some cases freezing. I fully appreciate the explanation given to me by Mr. Creegan that the system is unable to adjust to fans which are still operating. In other words, the system cannot increase or decrease the operation of the fans. I presume that is what is meant when they write in their notes that the system is "freezing", that 12 fans were not working and therefore the SCADA system is not accounting or those particular fans cannot be operated. This is what the record shows.
Who installed the system? How much did it cost? The important point is whether it passed what is called the factory acceptance test at the place of manufacture and whether it passed the site acceptance test on site.
Mr. Fred Barry
In answer to the first part of the Deputy's question, the cost of the SCADA system is included as part of the total contract price with NMI, the joint venture which designed and built the tunnel and as such I do not have a segregated cost for the SCADA system, per se. The contractor would have that information because it subcontracted large elements of the supply——
Could that price be provided to the committee?
Mr. Fred Barry
We could ask for the price but the contractor is not obliged to give it to us.
I understand.
Mr. Fred Barry
I will pass the reply to Mr. Creegan in a moment because he has more detailed knowledge than I have. However, the tests on the SCADA system generally were done partially, but not fully, in factory acceptance tests and partially in on-site tests.
Was the whole system tested in the factory?
Mr. Fred Barry
No. Partial factory acceptance——
I just want to ask the question correctly. The question is that the factory acceptance test, as I understand, should have included the whole system being tested in the factory before it was purchased.
Mr. Fred Barry
The factory acceptance tests — and I speak from some knowledge of testing of SCADA systems because I have been dealing with them for about 20 years — can deal with the whole system. It is not particularly unusual for systems to be shipped to site without a factory acceptance test having been done for the system in its entirety.
It was not tested in its entirety in the factory.
Mr. Fred Barry
No, it was not. However, I would not wish the committee to get the impression that it was a requirement that it should have been done. It is done sometimes and on other occasions elements are field tested. It was tested before——
Moving on to the field testing, the site acceptance test, was it all tested on site?
Mr. Fred Barry
I believe it was. I will expand on that answer. The SCADA system is unsatisfactory in some respects, in the view of the NRA, and I am not suggesting otherwise. The issues are really to do with reliability and durability. We are in dispute with the contractor as to certain elements of the SCADA system.
To take the discussion a little further than the SCADA system, we are in dispute with the contractor over a large number of issues, included among those are responsibility for the reliability and durability of several of the systems and equipment items. In some cases, following lengthy negotiations and discussions, the contractor has accepted responsibility and is replacing certain items at its own direct expense. In other areas there is dispute between ourselves and the contractor.
There is a major dispute resolution process under way under the contract and we are protecting the taxpayers' interest by making full claims against the contractor. In parallel, we have engaged independent expertise to cure and improve these defects because we are not going to allow the fact that there is a dispute going on with the contractor to get in the way of putting the corrective measures in place. We wanted these measures put in place to improve durability and reliability. It is not that the other methods being used from time to time to manage the tunnel are unsafe and that is not the situation, but it is not satisfactory to pay for and have a SCADA system which requires frequent manual intervention. It is inefficient and we must deal with that.
Mr. Barry has stated he cannot tell me what the SCADA system cost.
Mr. Fred Barry
As a segregated item.
Was it €30 million, €20 million or €45 million?
Mr. Fred Barry
That order of magnitude.
Which order?
Mr. Fred Barry
In the order of €20 million or €30 million.
The system cost approximately €30 million. What part of it is not working or is causing problems? Is it the power supply, equipment, software or electrical connections? What is causing the problem that neither the NRA nor the contractor that installed it is able to resolve?
Mr. Fred Barry
There are technical issues within the system.
In general, what are they?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
As Mr. Barry stated, a series of technical issues exists that encompass matters such as temperature sensitivity of certain equipment, as well as highly technical items, such as small relays which are not performing exactly as intended. There is a host of things like that which we must work through and get resolved, either through the contractor or, in the event it is unwilling to so do, by ourselves after which we will seek to recover the costs from the contractor.
As I understand it, the contractor that installed this system is responsible for it for the first two years and must repair and replace or put it right. Thereafter, the NRA will bill the contractor for a period of up to ten years. Why is the contractor not standing over the system it installed and which it is supposed to put right? What is its explanation for not doing this work? The NRA is employing other contractors at its own expense to examine the system which is not working and which has caused serious closures of the tunnel. At least five of the 20 closures are due to this system.
Mr. Fred Barry
This is one of the issues that is before the dispute resolution procedure at present.
Is that Mr. Barry's answer to me?
Mr. Fred Barry
Yes.
He does not have an explanation. Looking at it from my perspective——
Mr. Fred Barry
I have not the slightest intention of justifying the contractor's position. This is not meant to knock the Deputy.
No, but Mr. Barry must have an account. Did the NRA compile a report on each of those failures? Does Mr. Barry have a report on each of them?
Mr. Fred Barry
The Chairman and Deputy O'Dowd should be aware that the NRA is in commercial dispute with the contractor in respect of these issues.
Yes.
Mr. Fred Barry
It is a quasi-judicial procedure and independent people are in charge of it. It is a form of quasi-arbitration in which all sides are making their arguments, which are lengthy and legal in nature, to these people.
Of course.
Mr. Fred Barry
I acknowledge there is an issue to be dealt with in this regard and can inform the Deputy that we are putting forward the arguments, as of course is the contractor. Other than that, I do not consider that I can replicate the arguments that are being put in front of that body.
While I have other questions, I will bow to other members. My key point to Mr. Barry is that the NRA bought a system that was not fully factory-tested. Mr. Barry does not know the cost of the system and has stated it was approximately €30 million. He is unable to give me all the reasons it is not working and cannot explain the reasons in respect of the contractor that installed it and which is obliged to repair, replace or put right the system within a two-year period. This is utterly unacceptable.
While I will defer to other members after this, my final question is what kind of system, which is giving such problems, did the NRA buy? Although the tunnel was built to last 100 years, it has experienced 20 closures within 15 months, five of which were as a result of the aforementioned system. Such events are unacceptable and it is not disputed that this project has cost the taxpayer €750 million. If press reports are to be believed, there is a dispute in respect of between €100 million and €500 million.
Mr. Fred Barry
I object to what has been said here. It is being implied that I should be able to bring to the joint committee the detailed breakdown of an enormous contract with the contractor. As members are aware, under Government procurement directives, we award design and build contracts, typically lump sum or otherwise, to contractors which encompass many different elements. The fact that I am not in a position to tell the joint committee the precise value of a subcomponent of that contract, which is a matter for the contractor and its subcontractors, is being put forward as though there was something wrong, negligent or improper in our placement of that contract.
I made no such suggestion.
Deputy O'Dowd should allow the chief executive to continue.
I wish to respond to his statement.
Mr. Fred Barry
I acknowledge that there are problems with the SCADA system. We have been perfectly open about this and make no suggestion otherwise. We are following the proper procedures to protect the interests of taxpayers. It is not unusual for there to be problems with projects. This is why we have defects liability periods in all contracts to protect the purchaser's interest. This is one more example of it. We are doing the proper thing, both in managing safety in the tunnel and in protecting the taxpayers' interest in pursuing the contractor.
The Deputy asked me to give details of the dispute resolution procedure between ourselves and the contractor. With respect to everybody, this is not the forum for that.
I did not ask Mr. Barry about that.
Mr. Fred Barry
With respect, the Deputy asked me to give the contractor's position on this. I can say that the contractor is disputing responsibility for virtually everything we are attributing to it. That is the nature——
The NRA picked the contractor. I wish to make it very clear that I made no allegations about Mr. Barry or his organisation. At the beginning, I thanked him for facilitating my meeting with his organisation. I have made no allegations today. I have simply asked Mr. Barry very clear and concise questions. I am very unhappy with his response and find it unacceptable. However, I will speak at a later stage to allow other members to ask their questions. I will return to these matters.
I welcome Mr. Barry and the NRA team. I recall the first time I drove through the tunnel. It is quite an experience. As a member of Dublin City Council, I was heavily involved with the decisions on the route, depth and shape of the tunnel. When one is deep underground, one is very conscious that safety is a key feature. This is why I commend "Prime Time", Paul Murphy and RTE for highlighting safety issues that were raised by the workers on the tunnel. Quite clearly, safety must be the number one priority.
I watched the big dig in Boston when the tunnel was built under the Charles River. There was a lengthy period when the river leaked into the tunnel and there was mayhem in the Boston media in that context. Obviously, there can be some teething problems.
The fundamental point is that all our constituents and the public would like us to ask whether the facts in the two "Prime Time" reports are true or not. Is it true that a significant number of fans were broken down and that Transroute allowed the tunnel to remain open? Were some of our constituents in danger at particular times over the past 15 months? That is the bottom line and the fundamental point. Is it the case that one of the doors between the two tunnels was blocked, as was identified in the "Prime Time" report? Are those reports true or not? If they are true, why does the NRA not simply sack Transroute, which is the tunnel operator, and go back to Nishimatsu Mowlem Irishenco, which in some respects seems to have a quite controversial history, and tell it that it must get this right and that the NRA cannot allow a situation where 5 million users are in danger? Mr. Barry gave us the statistics which are very impressive, although when we were planning the tunnel, we wanted the full C-ring, which was the full ring of Dublin. In other words, we wanted a southern tunnel as well. The plan was to have a ring road around Dublin. The fundamental point is whether those reports, which have upset us, are true.
Deputy Broughan has asked the question. I call on Mr. Barry to respond.
Mr. Fred Barry
The reports that the tunnel was operated with six or seven fans out of action are incorrect.
Was it not in a log book? We saw a copy of the log book.
Mr. Barry, without interruption.
Mr. Fred Barry
The communication system between the computer control system, the fans and the multiple fans was out of action. When that happened, the operator used manual panels to control the tunnels.
The operator cannot do that. The manual panels are at the other end of the tunnel and six minutes' drive away. One cannot operate them manually.
Mr. Fred Barry
There is more than one.
I was told that there was only one.
It is quite clear from the questions of members that there is much misinformation so I ask the Deputy to give Mr. Barry an opportunity to state the facts.
Mr. Fred Barry
The tunnel was not operated with a large number of fans out of action. There were problems with the control system and the communications between it and the fans. When the system reported that communication had been lost between it and the fans, there was manual intervention, using control panels in place specifically for this purpose, to allow the tunnel to continue operating.
I would like to go further than the question asked. Notwithstanding this, there was trouble with the fans in the tunnel. We are having them replaced by the contractor at his expense. While they passed the test, they have not satisfied us on durability and reliability. This is an example of the area about which we talked earlier, when I stated we were taking the right steps to protect the taxpayers' interest. This is an example of where the contractor has accepted liability for the fans, and whether they are his or those of a subcontractor is not our concern. The fans will be replaced.
Is Mr. Barry saying that, on this Transroute log which my Fine Gael colleague has handed to me, 15 fans were not giving serious trouble or out of action at 2.48 p.m. on 9 February?
Mr. Fred Barry
Yes, I am.
Mr. Barry is stating that this is not true.
Mr. Fred Barry
I am saying it is not true.
How could Transroute get it so wrong? This company is the operator.
Mr. Fred Barry
Is there someone from Transroute who is saying otherwise? Perhaps I misunderstand.
There is a record that indicates there was serious trouble with 15 fans coming up to rush hour at 2.48 p.m. on 9 February.
Mr. Fred Barry
Yes, but as I mentioned, the reporters for the programme were given limited information from the tunnel operator. There are 100 closed circuit television cameras in the tunnel. Those in charge can look at the cameras to see whether the fans are functioning. If they are functioning but communication with them is down, they can send people to the tunnel.
This is the SCADA system.
Mr. Fred Barry
Yes, the control system.
In principle, safety is everything when one is under Whitehall or Rosmini college. Is it not critical that the tunnel be closed at that time? Is that not the point?
Mr. Fred Barry
No, it is not. If 15 fans were out of action, I agree without question that the tunnel would have been closed. I am sure Transroute would state the same thing but 15 fans were not out of action.
The Deputy asked a series of questions and should allow Mr. Barry to reply.
Mr. Fred Barry
The Deputy may have missed my earlier comments on this matter. Some of the vehicle access doors were blocked, but none of the fire doors was blocked. I drew everyone's attention to the fact that the fire brigade travelled through the tunnel at 20 or 30 minute intervals every day, escorting petrol tankers. If fire doors were blocked, it would undoubtedly have taken action.
When the tyre of the truck burst ten days ago and there was total gridlock, I raised the matter with the Taoiseach on the Order of Business. Would it not be incredibly serious if the door shown in the report was inaccessible because there were structures in front of it? Was that not crazy?
Mr. Fred Barry
No. I do not understand this. There are pedestrian egress doors, none of which is blocked. There are items of our equipment, including access doors for heavy vehicles, to deal with operations in the tunnel but these are not part of the safety process.
If there was a holocaust in one of the tunnels, vehicles would have to be brought into the other tunnel as quickly as possible. Is that not the plan?
Mr. Fred Barry
No, it is not, in fact. I am not quite sure what the reference to a holocaust means.
If there was a huge fire in the tunnel——
Mr. Fred Barry
If there was, one would be reluctant to provide oxygen by opening doors to a parallel area. I am not a fire officer but that is my view. One would remove people on foot through the unblocked safety doors.
Exactly, but one needs access through the two tunnels.
Mr. Fred Barry
Yes, but there are safety doors giving access through the tunnels and these were not blocked. I am stating this categorically: the safety doors were not blocked.
Does Mr. Barry think it is now time to hold an independent review? Many users think somebody should take responsibility and I have asked the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey, on a number of occasions to initiate a review.
The Irish Independent reported the amount of money in dispute with Nishimatsu Mowlem Irishenco to be €556 million. How much of that relates to safety features? Mr. Barry said this was the first tunnel to be built and operated in full compliance with EU Directive 2004/54/EC but it cannot be as it was in planning and under construction before that directive came into force.
Mr. Fred Barry
Happily, some of our design team were among the group which wrote the European safety directive and we incorporated all the measures in the directive into the tunnel.
Is it time for an independent review?
Please allow Mr. Barry the opportunity to answer the questions.
Mr. Fred Barry
We were able to incorporate all the measures in the directive before it came into force because we were part of the group of experts which wrote it.
On the very large claims submitted by the contractor, everyone in this room who is familiar with the construction industry will be aware that contractors make large claims, but that does not necessarily have any bearing on their entitlement to receive the money. We are perfectly confident of bringing in the tunnel for the amount which we have stated for several years.
The Deputy asked about an independent review. We have already secured outside help on the SCADA system. A full and thorough review is being carried out to ensure the right things are done to get it fixed.
I welcome the presentation from Mr. Barry and his team. It was very forthright, which is not usual at Oireachtas committee meetings. They identified the difficulties they have and they appear to be dealing with them in a very proper way. Air quality is at the root of the issue. What monitoring system is in place to log any difficulties that arise in regard to air purity?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
We have various air quality monitoring meters in the tunnel and they monitor different gases. At each portal there is air monitoring equipment which picks up such things as hydrogen dioxide particulates. A full regime of air quality monitoring is in place.
Is there a log for the dates on which concerns were raised as to whether the system was functioning to its maximum potential? Has the National Roads Authority carried out any analysis as to whether there was any deviation from an acceptable level of air quality?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
Logs exist for the pieces of equipment to which I referred but none of the events spoken about today would have impacted on air quality, except for the fire which occurred on 11 March.
Is there a frequent audit of those logs?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
The air quality monitoring section of Dublin City Council monitors the results of many air quality tests. The northern portals in particular, which are a key sensitive area, receive the results directly.
I have a number of questions. As a non-engineer, I find it very difficult to understand how fans which were installed for a specific purpose a year ago are now found not to be in accordance with the specifications. Many people will wonder why that particular type of fan was installed in the first place, if they need to be removed a year later.
Mr. Barry said work was being carried out on the SCADA communications system by another contractor. In other words, the NRA is not waiting for the resolution of the issue.
Mr. Fred Barry
I will answer that shortly.
I want to find out what that will cost. An even more important question from my point of view concerns the level of interaction between the operators of the tunnel, the NRA and the fire service. Is the fire service completely satisfied with what is happening in the tunnel?
There is no doubt that the tunnel has been an outstanding achievement for Dublin and people will reap its benefits in years to come. However, when I hear that the fans installed in the tunnel were of insufficient quality to last longer than the first year or that the SCADA system malfunctioned after a such short period of time, I must question the quality of supervision over the construction project.
I served on the Committee of Public Accounts for several years, where I saw a world of files pertaining to information technology which was supposed to be delivered to certain specifications. Somehow, the contractors involved in these projects were never brought to account. They escaped through the specification side of their contracts. The NRA is the only organisation that can ensure the tunnel's safety for every man, woman and child who passes through it and that taxpayers will not be ripped off by malfunctioning or substandard equipment. It is important that firms are made responsible for ensuring the equipment they supply is adequate. The overall strategy must be questioned if vital equipment clearly does not meet the specifications.
Mr. Fred Barry
I concur with the Deputy on the issue of fans failing or being found to be inadequate within a year of the tunnel's opening. The fans met the specifications and passed the tests but, just as a car can seem fine when it is driven from the showroom yet lacks durability, some of the bearings in the fans are wearing out earlier than anticipated. That should not be happening but, in regard to whether the public should be protected, the contractor has agreed that it is responsible and they are being replaced at its expense.
How much will that cost?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
I think it is in the region of €25,000.
Mr. Fred Barry
There are 34 fans, so that is a significant cost to the contractor.
Is Mr. Barry sure that the new fans will be adequate?
Mr. Fred Barry
We are as sure as we can be with any equipment but if they are not adequate, the contractor will face another bill of huge proportions.
It will become a merry-go-round in that case.
Mr. Fred Barry
Whenever equipment is bought, the specification covers a certain amount.
If one buys a new car or tractor, one does not expect a breakdown in the first year.
Mr. Fred Barry
That is true, and if a breakdown occurs, one returns the vehicle to the dealer.
Is that the case in respect of the SCADA system?
Mr. Fred Barry
The dealer has not walked away, although we have had several arguments to reach this point.
I referred to the SCADA system.
Mr. Fred Barry
We are in dispute on the SCADA system. We are fighting the taxpayers' corner and will continue to do so.
I ask Mr. Barry to return to my question on the fire service.
Mr. Fred Barry
We hold regular meetings with the fire service and it has been actively involved in the tunnel. When it expressed concerns, as it did last summer in regard to petrol tankers, we responded immediately. With its co-operation and assistance, we put an escort facility in place. I cannot speak for the fire service but I am certainly not aware of any difficulties between the fire service and ourselves.
I hope for everybody's sake there will not be a huge problem. Let us suppose there was a fairly major claim, in the present circumstances with fans, the SCADA system and so on, would the insurance company stand in?
Mr. Fred Barry
The claim from us would be against the joint venture, which is bonded. Therefore, we have protection from that point of view.
I thank Mr. Barry.
I welcome the delegation from the NRA. As a regular user of the tunnel I regard it as a fantastic piece of infrastructure. I agree with Deputy Connaughton that in 25 years' time, whatever the costs will eventually pan out at, whether it is €700 million, I think it will be extremely good value. The tunnel should have been built ten years ago and should have continued right across Ringsend. I talked about building under Ringsend, etc., when it was not popular to say that in Dublin County Council and it became an election issue in the 1991 local elections.
In regard to safety, unlike my colleagues, I would regard the incident on 11 March as minor in terms of fire. Having worked in insurance I regard a truck tyre or braking system going on fire as a minor incident. My criticism is why it took so long to get the tunnel open again. We are over-reactive and over-conservative on those issues. Given that the entire length of the tunnel is covered with CCTV cameras, why was it not possible to move in a video camera person to record everything, get the truck out and allow traffic to move? It was not satisfactory. I was driving into the Dáil at the time and when I heard about the tunnel incident on the news I was hoping and praying that by the time I got to Whitehall it would have cleared. Unfortunately it had not and I had to drive through Whitehall to get to Leinster House. There should be a better emergency service to deal with such incidents
I wish to refer to the overturned truck incident which happened some months ago between the tunnel and the Point Depot. The length of time it took to clear the area was phenomenal. We should demand that a separate emergency crew move in any time there is an incident in the tunnel or close by it because it is the axis of north-south interlinking.
In regard to the charging structure, while I paid €6 today, I wrote to Mr. Barry about it. Given the problems with congestion in the city, CO2 emissions, etc., it would make good sense to allow cars use the tunnel for a charge of €3 on a 24 hours per day, seven days per week basis. I was charged €6 to drive in an empty tunnel. I do not think there were half a dozen trucks ahead of me on the inside lane. There were no cars and I did not break the speed limit. I would regard it as good value if car users were allowed use the tunnel on a 24 hour per day, seven days per week basis.
The Deputy has made his point.
I am not finished.
There is a time constraint.
Others have taken much longer than me. I have been present for the past——
The Deputy has made his point in regard to——
I wish to raise other questions.
Well then, please move on to the other questions.
With due respect, Chairman——
Will the Deputy please move on to the other questions?
If the Chair did not interrupt me I would have asked the question. Why is there a cheaper rate for cars going from south to north at peak time compared with those going from north to south? I do not know if Mr. Barry is aware of that. That is discrimination.
My other question relates to the speed limit. Travelling from the airport one is in an 80 km/h zone and one moves into the port tunnel at 80 km/h. Approaching the port tunnel from East Wall Road one is in a 50 km/h zone. I do not see why there should be a different speed limit. Ironically, one of our traffic corps members seems to park there frequently. As I said to the police authority when it came before the committee, it is shooting fish in a barrel. As I understand the National Roads Authority has control over speed limits I would ask for its comment.
Given the criticisms, queries and concerns of members, perhaps it would be a good idea if members were invited to visit the port tunnel in its finished scenario. Mr. Barry has said that full safety regulations are in place in regard to fire, pedestrian access, etc. It would be useful if members paid a visit to the port tunnel to see it at first hand rather than react to television programmes where mistruths are deliberately put out.
I will allow Deputy Feighan in on the same issue.
I welcome the delegation. The safety issue has to be paramount. There are thousands of such tunnels around the world. Has the issue of dysfunctional fans arisen in other tunnels and, if so, why are we, seemingly, picking up the pieces?
I have raised the question of charges with the DTO. I agree with Deputy Kennedy on this issue. It may be that the NRA wants to ensure that not many cars use the tunnel. If I take a taxi from Dublin Airport to the city centre at peak time, Dublin taxis have to charge me €12. Given that many taxpayers have paid for this tunnel, they are effectively being ripped off, not by the taxis but by Dublin Port tunnel. It may be time to look at trying to get taxis off the streets at peak time, given environmental concerns and savings. It is time to address the issue of not charging taxis and not ripping off customers who take taxis into town.
Mr. Fred Barry
The first issue was the recent truck incident and whether we could have cleared up faster. I accept the criticism that it took a long time to get it cleared up after the accident. We will endeavour to do better should we have future accidents. To ensure there is no misconstruing of that, I thought the fire service did particularly well in getting to the incident as quickly as it did and in the actions it took. The delay in re-opening the tunnel resulted from an actual clean-up in the area to ensure it was safe for cars going through. I accept the criticism that it took some time to get it re-opened.
I was not criticising the fire brigade.
Mr. Fred Barry
I appreciate that the Deputy was not criticising the fire brigade. I did not want my response to be taken as a criticism of it either. That is all. On the issue of delays and the truck overturning at the Point Depot — the committee will understand that is not our area of responsibility.
In regard to the M50 where a great deal of work is taking place, we have put dedicated truck and car removal vehicles in place solely to speed up the removal of broken down cars and trucks because it takes a long time to get fixed. I give that as an example that there is merit in the suggestion that there should be dedicated crews around the place. We have put dedicated crews in place on the M50, which has speeded up the response to incidents.
Is Dublin City Council the body responsible for that?
Mr. Fred Barry
I guess——
That issue was already discussed with the Dublin City Council when its representatives appeared before the committee and we can take it up with them.
Mr. Fred Barry
On the question of the charging strategy for the use of the tunnel, as we all are aware, the tunnel was intended primarily for HGV traffic and we were concerned from an early stage that it would not be filled with commuter traffic to the detriment of its primary function to carry HGVs. We put a charging structure in place that pretty well assured us of that. It was a form of demand management with high charges applying at peak times. We made some adjustments to that charging structure during the course of the year when we broke down the charges over the weekend and that worked quite well. The traffic volumes have increased over the weekends without causing any difficulties anywhere. We are committed to revisiting that aspect. We review it in six monthly intervals. Therefore, some change may be made in that respect in the future. Certainly, we would like full use to be made of the tunnel within the bounds of ensuring its primary function is not disturbed.
I will ask Mr. Hugh Creegan to respond to the question on speed limits.
Mr. Hugh Creegan
As the Deputy correctly said, an 80 km/h speed limit is in place from Dublin Airport down the M1 and through the tunnel. On exiting the tunnel a speed limit of 50 km/h applies because at that point it leads on to a non-national road as one approaches East Wall Road and the Dublin Port area. Therefore, the speed limit is reduced to 50 km/h. I understand it is that section at the southern end of the tunnel to which the Deputy is referring. Effectively, the tunnel leads on to a non-national road over which we do not have jurisdiction. It is part of the general city network to which, as members are aware, a general speed limit of 50 km/h applies.
It is ridiculous that a 50 km/h speed limit applies as one exits the tunnel via East Wall Road to go north while a 80 km/h speed limit applies to the stretch of road on existing the tunnel in the opposite direction.
Two gardaí were on duty pointing speed cameras at motorists existing the tunnel last Sunday. I happened to be one of those motorists but I was travelling under the 50 km/h speed limit that applies on that stretch of the road.
Mr. Barry might review that issue.
Mr. Fred Barry
We will examine it.
I would like Mr. Barry to reply to my question on taxis.
Mr. Fred Barry
I will come to that question but I wish to point out that as one approaches the toll plaza one would expect the speed limit to reduce and that is probably the reason it is reduced at that point. Perhaps the speed limit is reduced at a point on the road earlier than is required. I am not arguing with anybody about that aspect. We will review it.
I wanted to remind Mr. Barry of how low the speed limit is set there.
Mr. Fred Barry
We will review it and see what we can do.
The members would all be welcome to visit the tunnel and we would be happy to arrange that. I would like to go a little further and extend an invitation to members, if they are interested, to visit the Limerick tunnel, which is currently under construction. It is quite an extraordinary project and would be of great interest to them.
We received an invitation from Deputy Power to visit Limerick. When would be the best time to make that trip?
Mr. Fred Barry
We would arrange either of those trips at times that would be convenient for members.
I understand that in the case of Limerick, the tunnel will be dropped into the river——
Mr. Fred Barry
The tunnel will be floated out at the end of summer or early autumn. Therefore, I suggest that the visit should be arranged in the next few months.
Before then?
Mr. Fred Barry
Definitely before then.
Okay.
Mr. Fred Barry
We would like to show members that project and I believe they would find it interesting.
What about the motorway to Sligo and the north west?
Allow Mr. Barry to finish his reply to this question.
Mr. Fred Barry
We would gladly arrange for members to visit the Dublin Port tunnel.
We will make that arrangement for members who wish to visit it. Will Mr. Barry reply to the question on taxis?
Mr. Fred Barry
From an environmental point of view, a taxi is just another motor car, the ownership of it is neither here nor there. The real issue is high occupancy vehicles. If we want to get the best use out of road space and ensure minimal environmental emissions while moving people, irrespective of whether people travel in a taxi or in their own cars, the position is quite neutral. It is simply a matter of who owns the car.
I do not accept that. Visitors to this country on arriving at Dublin Airport take a taxi into the city. Most of them are not aware of the availability of public transport at the airport. We do not have a proper public transport network or, as in most countries, a metro connecting the airport to the city centre.
Mr. Fred Barry
Not yet.
Give me a break.
Let us get real.
I will not even go into that. If one takes a taxi from the airport to Grafton Street, it will cost one almost €30 at peak time. If one goes through the tunnel, it will cost about €15. Adding the €12 brings the total to €30. We are trying to save the environment but taxis are caught in traffic and producing much more CO2. The DTO is managing traffic in the city and states there is a reasonable argument to examine the issue of taxis. The NRA, the DTO and other organisations need to address this issue because taxpayers and the public are being ripped off by the €12 charge.
Mr. Fred Barry
We will keep toll levels under review; that will include looking at both taxis and private cars.
Deputy Feighan makes a fair point with regard to taxis.
When will the next review be carried out?
Mr. Fred Barry
The next review is to be carried out in August this year.
Mr. Barry said they were carried out at six month intervals. Does that mean a review was carried out in February?
Mr. Fred Barry
We looked at the issue in February. With the 50% growth in traffic in the last 12 months we decided that, other than the measure we took some months ago to drop weekend charges, they should stay the same for now.
Does Mr. Barry not accept that during the day car usage is quite low in comparison to what clogs up the rest of the city?
Mr. Fred Barry
It certainly is low compared to what clogs up the rest of the city but——
Given that the tunnel was built with taxpayers' money——
Mr. Barry to continue without interruption.
Mr. Fred Barry
Of course, the tunnel was built with taxpayers' money but it was built to take heavy goods vehicles into and out of the port. It was agreed that it should carry some car traffic. It could take more than it takes but with the heavy growth in traffic in the tunnel, we do not believe we should drop the charges now, experience a huge surge in traffic and have to increase charges again some months later to try to get the balance right. We are monitoring the situation. We have made one set of changes. We will continue to monitor the situation and will take the committee's views on board.
I thank Mr. Barry and his team for attending this meeting. Given the information that has been circulating in the last week or so, it is reassuring to hear balancing information. It makes for good listening. There is a sense of urgency, which is also welcome.
Deputy Connaughton said the tunnel would be seen in a few years as a great piece of infrastructure. For inner city communities in Townsend Street and Pearse Street and areas further away such as Sandymount, it has made a huge contribution to the lives of families. The number of trucks taken off the roads is very welcome. There is an urgent need to have in the tunnel a rapid reaction crew, similar to that on the M50. However, it is important not to lose sight of the fact that the tunnel has been, since its opening, a tremendous piece of infrastructure and is most welcome. It is not necessary to wait for it to be perceived as such, certainly by people living in the city.
I do not know a great deal about the tunnel but I am happy to see the representatives of the NRA present. It would be great if others responded to public representatives as quickly as the NRA. I congratulate it on the magnificent work being done on the M3 and the fact that it is ahead of schedule. The quicker it is open, the better.
From a road safety point of view, be it inside or outside the tunnel, many have mentioned the traffic calming measures applied on NRA roads throughout the country. I do not know what happened yesterday but people are ploughing into them because they are not being kept clean. This issue has been brought to my attention repeatedly. Perhaps a directive could be given to county councillors. I believe the traffic calming measures applied in the middle of roads are madness and should not be used, as too many cars are ploughing into them every weekend. Perhaps the NRA could issue a directive to the people in charge of roads to have the signs covered with muck cleaned.
Mr. Fred Barry
Certainly.
Did the specification for the SCADA system provide for the capacity to operate the fans in the way it has not yet been able to do?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
It was written into the specification that the fans should be capable of being controlled by the SCADA system but, as Mr. Barry explained, we have two backup systems under which manual control panels are provided at various locations, with emergency override panels at the end of the tunnel. The specification absolutely included that the SCADA system should be capable of operating the fans.
It does not do that.
Mr. Hugh Creegan
It does virtually all of the time.
Not all of the time.
Mr. Hugh Creegan
Virtually all of the time. When there are failures in the communications system, we have backup manual panels to control all the fans.
When I spoke to Mr. Creegan, I understood there was only one manual panel with an operator in the control room and that at the northern end of the tunnel there was a manual control system. If the system fails inside, one must travel 4.5 km, which takes six minutes, to manually reset the fans. Is that correct?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
There are two sets of control panels. There are override panels located at both ends of the tunnels, to which the Deputy has referred, while a second set of manual panels is located at the northern end of the tunnel.
If the SCADA system fails——
Mr. Hugh Creegan
In each case where there is a communications issue between the fans and the SCADA system, a person is despatched to the manual control panel to control the fans.
Which panel?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
There are four manual control panels. Depending on which set of fans is causing the problem——
The person would be despatched to the northern end of the tunnel if the problem was at that end.
Mr. Hugh Creegan
Correct.
I am not trying to put Mr. Creegan on the spot but because of the ongoing problem, he said when I met him that in theory it could be solved tomorrow or it might never be solved. In theory, the fault in the SCADA system is unknown. The operator does not know what is the problem and is trying to fix it. It can be fixed temporarily but will arise again. Is that a fair interpretation?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
I hope I did not give the Deputy that impression because it was not my intention. It is a matter of finding out what is the problem before solving it. For instance, we believe the communications issue has been resolved. The fault was located and rectified. We will see over time whether it has been completely rectified but our view is that it is.
I am delighted to hear that. It is important information. How does the operator deal with power surges? Apparently, on 9 February a power surge knocked out 12 fans on the northbound lane and three on the southbound lane. When this happened on 25 January, the tunnel was closed but on 9 February the same problem occurred.
Mr. Hugh Creegan
In each case, it depends on what problem manifests itself at the end of the trigger event. If the trigger is a communications fault, we take the action referred to. If it is a different fault, it is appropriate to shut down the tunnel.
On 15 January there was a power failure and the tunnel was closed for 1,047 minutes. The specification states the operator should have an alternative power system which should be able to work for at least 24 hours without interruption. I do know what is the power source but I presume it is diesel. Why was it not used?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
In this case, the backup system did not fully work in the way intended and the tunnel was shut while the problem was remedied and rectified.
What was the problem with the backup system?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
I do not have the exact details but it was dealt with——
The back-up system did not work but Mr. Creegan does not know what caused the failure. Is that a fair comment?
Mr. Hugh Creegan
I cannot explain to the committee at this moment exactly what the issue was.
Mr. Fred Barry
It is not that it was not known. We can provide an answer to the committee.
I am very concerned again that this seems to be an awful mess. The tunnel has systems, fans, back-up systems, that do not work.
I wish to make some points about speed. There is no speed camera in the tunnel. While motion or a series of vehicles in motion can be detected, the speed of any specific car or lorry cannot be detected. I have used the tunnel and when abiding by the speed limit of 50 km/h or 80 km/h, it is possible to have a HGV coming behind and pushing you to go faster than the limit. While the Garda Síochána may sit and observe, there is no speed camera in the tunnel to apprehend a driver. Is that a fair comment?
Mr. Fred Barry
That is a fair comment. We have no problem whatsoever with the Garda Síochána putting a speed camera in the tunnel.
Two excellent gardaí were at the other end. In my view, because many of these vehicles are carrying inflammable material they are more likely than other vehicles to go on fire. Aggressive driving by some HGV drivers is not controlled by gardaí and it is essential the NRA recommends that the Garda Síochána deal with this issue.
I am aware that there are heat detectors in the tunnel. I refer to the incident when a lorry had a tyre catch fire. Could a heat detector exterior to the tunnel have detected the temperature of that tyre? Can excessive or unusual levels of heat be detected before a vehicle enters the tunnel?
Mr. Fred Barry
Inspections of vehicles before they enter the tunnel could be done and these could include heat detection mechanisms. However, it would be very difficult to implement. One could imagine the traffic on the motorway having to slow down or go through something akin to a security check at the airport, for instance.
One of the problems with the fire in the tunnel in Switzerland — it may have been in the Bern tunnel — was the absence of heat detectors.
Mr. Fred Barry
I can inform the Deputy with absolute certainty that some of the individuals who dealt with the Mont Blanc tunnel fire in France were part of our team assessing the measures installed in our tunnel. All the lessons from that incident have been taken on board and have been included.
Is the NRA satisfied that heat detection is not required prior to entry to the tunnel?
Mr. Fred Barry
It is not required.
I have a final point to make and it is a traffic issue. One exits from the tunnel heading north at 80 km/h and cars travelling from the city are coming to meet lorries which are about to cross lanes to head to the M50. The speed and exit positions of this traffic should be examined because some of those lorries can be travelling faster than the speed limit of 80 km/h. The criss-crossing of lanes which is necessary may need to be examined by the NRA with a view to reducing speeds or to the enforcement of the speed limit for traffic exiting the tunnel.
Mr. Fred Barry
It might be an enforcement issue. The speed limit on the stretch of road beyond the tunnel was brought down to 80 km/h——
It is 80 km/h for about two or three kilometres. A northbound car not heading for the M50 must cut across the HGV route which is going the other way. I ask the NRA to examine that issue.
Mr. Fred Barry
We will take a look at that.
I am a reasonably frequent user of the tunnel at €6 a go. Initially I was of the view that the crossing over would be a problem but in practice I do not think it is.
My experience is different to Deputy Kennedy. He may be coming out of the tunnel at 80 km/h or faster.
No. The Deputy is incorrect.
I commend the Chairman for holding this meeting and the NRA for attending. This may be the most important matter discussed thus far by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and the discussion has been highly valuable. I will follow on from Deputy O'Dowd's points. Evidence from road safety authorities in the United Kingdom has shown that half of our HGVs are defective. There are reports that a high proportion of Irish HGVs are defective. A couple of weeks ago members discovered that 14 inspectors of HGVs were unable to work because the legislation to permit them to so do was not in place. Given this track record and the recent problems with tyres, fires and so on, does Mr. Barry consider the absence of a comprehensive, up-to-date and independent inspection system of HGVs to be dangerous? Has the NRA been screaming at the Minister's door that he must get right the HGV testing regulations to ensure safety in the tunnel?
Mr. Fred Barry
Whatever my personal views in this regard, I should not get into what is a policy area for the Minister. The testing of HGVs lies outside the NRA's remit.
There is prima facie evidence from outside this jurisdiction that many Irish HGVs are defective. As they use the tunnel continually, is it not more dangerous for Irish drivers and passengers vis-à-vis tunnels in other countries because we have been lax in this regard?
Mr. Fred Barry
I am reluctant to tread on ground on which I should not tread.
Given that the NRA is running a tunnel, does Mr. Barry regard it as serious that there is significant evidence that our HGV fleet has been found in another jurisdiction to have significant defects?
Mr. Fred Barry
Irrespective of the position in the tunnel and beyond, it is highly important that all vehicles using the road network should be safe.
Yes. However, at least, we have the NCT system and better systems have been introduced in recent years. On a related point, why did the NRA not install a speed camera as part of its specification with Transroute when it began to operate? The television report showed clearly that the journalist's car was overtaken at great speed by a car in the other lane. This is on video and appeared on television. Why was the NRA not proactive, rather than waiting for the Garda and others to ensure adherence to the speed limit?
Mr. Fred Barry
The NRA has no authority to enforce speed limits. It is a Garda function and we do not have statutory authority. We could have all the cameras in the world measuring vehicle speed.
It is only safe if the limit is adhered to.
The tunnel is unique and unlike any other national route for which the NRA has responsibility for construction, management and so on.
Mr. Fred Barry
The NRA is as keen as anyone in this room that the speed limits should be adhered to within the tunnel.
That is critical.
Mr. Fred Barry
It is very important and we are in favour of measures being taken. However, the NRA does not have the authority.
In respect of large vehicles or otherwise, does the NRA plan to introduce sanctions for companies and individuals whose vehicles turn out to be defective and which cause problems? Does Mr. Barry wish to have the power to so do or should this be done?
Mr. Fred Barry
The NRA does not have the power to do something like that and I do not believe there are moves afoot to give us such power. The demarcation lines between the functions of the NRA, the Road Safety Authority and other groups within the transport ambit are reasonably clear. This is not our arena.
I will revert to the contractors. Is it the understanding that for another 11 years the NRA, as the agent of the Oireachtas and the Government, will depend on those contractors to bring in subcontractors to ensure all the safety features are correct? Given the incredible dispute that has arisen, does the NRA have confidence in this regard? There has been a cost overrun of 200% to 300%. In common with one or two of my colleagues on the joint committee, I also am a member of the Committee of Public Accounts. The original price was €250 million; the figure is now at €750 million and a cost of €1.2 billion has been mentioned. Is Mr. Barry confident that we will not be obliged to return repeatedly to the Nishimatsu, Mowlem and Irishenco consortium during the next 11 years? In other words, have they been given a cash cow or easy mark in the form of the Dublin administration or the State that can be milked well into the future? I note that after so many years they failed to provide a tunnel for the NRA that was operated effectively around the clock from the outset.
Mr. Fred Barry
The Deputy asked a number of questions. I am not quite sure what was represented by any €250 million estimate but it certainly is not the tunnel that we have built.
It was when we revised the length of it and pulled it back to Santry. My understanding at the time was that it would have been the equivalent of €250 million in old money. That was our estimate. At one stage, we were talking about building the entire ring and finishing the M50 around the bay for about £240 million in Irish punts. With the Taoiseach's problems, we have been trying to get our heads around what punts were worth 12 years ago. They were actually very valuable.
They were worth €1.27 to be exact.
Exactly. We are also trying to understand what sterling was worth.
Mr. Fred Barry
In respect of the contractual relationship, it is in the defects warranty liability period for a couple of years after the job is finished. If something happens, the contractor is supposed to come and fix it. In large measure, this is what happens with our contracts around the country. Sometimes, we get into disputes as to whether something is our liability, that of the contractor or is mixed. We have an argy-bargy over it. That is going on at the moment over a number of issues with the tunnel.
Beyond that, we still have contractual rights to claim if defects are uncovered but then it becomes a contractual claim against the other company. It would be for up to six years or 12 years from completion, depending on whether the contract was under seal or not. In this case, it will be under seal so we will have that entitlement for the further ten years or thereabouts.
From the cash cow point of view, during that period there is no money running from the State to Nishimatsu Mowlem Irishenco and I do not envisage any circumstances in which there would be. However, there may be situations with this——
Are they not going to get more money?
Mr. Fred Barry
During the course of the negotiations, we have recognised that there were issues on our side of the table which gave rise to extra cost and we have made proposals against all of that. That increased the payment to them above the original basic value. It does not come within a shadow of the sort of moneys that are being spoken about.
Mr. Barry is not ruling out that they might get more money?
We cannot go on and on with this. I suggest that——
Mr. Barry wants to answer that question.
I suggest that when the costing is sorted out, Mr. Barry comes back to us with——
Mr. Fred Barry
To tell the committee where we ended up.
Yes. Mr. Barry can finish his answer to Deputy Broughan's question.
Mr. Fred Barry
With respect, the arguments with the contractor are over things that have happened so none of us can change what has happened. That is where we are.
Does Mr. Barry have concerns about any of the subcontractors, for example, Lagan Construction? My colleague mentioned the SCADA situation but does Mr. Barry have any concerns about any of the subcontractors on the project, such as Lagan Construction?
Mr. Fred Barry
In what respect?
In respect of problems that have arisen.
Cement that was not properly made and flooding.
There are also allegations that it delivered problem infill to infrastructural projects.
Mr. Fred Barry
No. I am not saying that nothing will ever come out. There may be something about which we do not know but I am not aware of any problems following the checks we did during and since construction.
Does Mr. Barry reckon that they were carried out to the highest standards?
Mr. Fred Barry
Yes.
In respect of the cause of the flooding——
Mr. Fred Barry
Where they were not, we have taken or are taking firm action.
I will take a quick question from Senator Ó Domhnaill.
Like my colleagues, I welcome the delegation to the meeting. The NRA is certainly at the cutting edge of providing better roads for people throughout the country and impacts on many communities, not least my own in Donegal. Like some of my colleagues, I frequently come down the M1 to the tunnel. It is a great convenience to use the tunnel but I share the view of Deputy Kennedy in the sense that the €6 fee should certainly be looked at. I would very much welcome it if this could be reduced in August. Could Mr. Barry tell me how the tunnel is impacting negatively or positively on gridlock on the M50? I am sure it is having a positive impact.
Could the delegation also outline the current state of development on the M50, the timeframes involved and the benefits that will accrue?
I will allow a quick response to that question. I have two quick questions. There was a controversy about the height of the tunnel before it was built. Is Mr. Barry satisfied that he got that one right? There were difficulties with water seeping into the tunnel before it was opened. Has that issue been resolved satisfactorily?
Whatever else we may say about the NRA, its safety record is impeccable. I am glad that it has reiterated that there is no issue of safety in the tunnel today. The points made by Deputy O'Dowd regarding what Mr. Barry has admitted were disputes with the contractor are disturbing. In view of Mr. Barry's many years of experience, is that normal in such construction projects at other locations? Were the difficulties experienced in the port tunnel with contractors and subcontractors more serious than what was normally expected?
Mr. Fred Barry
I am not forgetting Senator Ó Domhnaill's question. The difficulties in the port tunnel and the issues with the contractor were off centre. We have had more difficulties than we have had on other jobs of similar scale. Some of this is due to the fact that it is a tunnelling project. Such projects are notorious for bankrupting contractors and sometimes clients.
And the taxpayer.
Mr. Fred Barry
And the taxpayer. They are notorious to the extent that the insurance industry, to which we referred, is cautious on the bond it will give to tunnelling contractors. The committee may hear of this in its discussions with the RPA and those responsible for the metro project. Nonetheless, allowing for the scale of the project and its difficulty, the level of dispute over the tunnel is higher than one would normally have.
Regarding the status of the M50, the works at the Galway road junction and the widening works north and south of that junction are almost completed. They will be open to traffic in a few weeks. The work at the Red Cow is on target for completion in the autumn. Some sections have opened and more are coming on stream between now and then.
The phase 3 work, scheduled to finish in 2010, beyond the West Link toll road, is almost completed and will be open in a few weeks. The works on the northern section of the road, at the junctions of the M1, the N2 and the N3 and the works under the phase 2 contract will run until late 2010. The work on the southern section is also part of this.
I am satisfied with the decisions made regarding the height of the tunnel. I draw attention to the fact that there would be no point in building a tunnel in isolation that could take larger vehicles unless one raised all the bridges around the country and completed a network for larger vehicles. Virtually every country must make decisions on what the standard height will be. I was not around when that decision was made but I have no second thoughts on it.
There was great entertainment in the media on water seepage into the tunnel while it was being built. It did not get much of an airing in the media but I mentioned that we were building a tunnel under water because the water table was above the tunnel. It is inevitable that there will be water seepage during construction. After construction of a tunnel below the water table, there is an ingress of water but, if the job has been done properly, there are systems designed to deal with this. There is a modest ingress of water but the systems in place deal with it without difficulty.
Did the use of low-spec cement cause the leak, as suggested by the media?
Mr. Fred Barry
With respect, the media spoke for years about a myriad of issues, most of which had nothing to do with cement.
It is evident that there have been many old wives' tales about the tunnel. We can accept from Mr. Barry's responses that much of what has been said in that regard amounts to no more than that.
Mr. Fred Barry
I am not saying there were not leaks, as there were many while it was under construction. As a civil engineer, however, I would have been surprised if there had not been leaks and, in any case, they have been dealt with.
One of the issues on which we will ask Mr. Barry to return at some time in the near future is the question of the proposed outer ring route in the Leinster area. We will ask him to consider whether, given the new powers of compulsory purchase, there is a benefit in giving the entire project over to the private sector, as has been done in a number of American states and, more recently, a number of European countries. The NRA would simply choose the route but the new motorway, because of the high costs involved, would be a purely private project and the tolls to be charged could reflect the cost of its construction.
It sounds like the Chairman has been talking to the Minister for Finance and been told we have a lot less money to spend on transport. It sounds very bad.
We are in a situation where the rest of the country is in serious difficulty——
We are heading into recession.
——with regard to the provision of major infrastructure. The wider Dublin region, as Deputy O'Dowd said, is the subject of significant public expenditure.
The Chairman is wrong.
Let me finish. People in the north west, the west, the south west and the south east will not stand by and watch yet another major road coming on track in the Dublin area, to the detriment of infrastructure in the rest of the country.
Dublin enjoys by far the lowest level of spending, as the Chairman knows.
There is nothing to stop Deputy Broughan having an input to that discussion if he has other suggestions to make. I specifically ask the NRA to look at international practice and let us know how successful such projects have been in the United States and elsewhere in Europe. I am hopeful we will be able to visit one such project as part of a visit to Stockholm to look at congestion charges. Members who are interested in making the trip should let us know, as it is planned for this year.
I think the Chairman is referring to the Dublin outer orbital route. First, that route is excluded from the national development plan. The National Roads Authority was asked to express a view on its viability from an economic point of view and replied to the effect that it was viable. It would have been very happy to include it in its plan, to be paid for by the taxpayer under the national development plan, but the Government chose to exclude it. Now the Government is faced with the problem that it did not provide the money for a route which has to be built. The Chairman is now asking for it to be tolled instead but that is not acceptable.
There is a question as to whether it has to be built.
It was not included in the Government's plan.
All I am asking is whether it is timely that it is not included in the national development plan at this stage.
In the context of the overall development of the country, is the N28 to Cork harbour on the horizon or is that project also outside the national development plan?
Mr. Fred Barry
It is at planning stage.
The NRA will be working in tandem with whatever is done at the harbour.
Mr. Fred Barry
We will be looking for a contribution from the harbour authorities if it wants to move for its own commercial benefit
I thank Mr. Barry for his open and frank responses and thank Mr. Creegan and Mr. Egan. I thank the NRA for always being available to respond to the committee and its members as individuals. We wish it continued success with its work.
Mr. Fred Barry
I thank the Chairman.