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JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Nov 2009

Road Network: Discussion with National Roads Authority.

The next item on our agenda is a discussion with the National Roads Authority. I draw attention to the fact that while members of the committee have absolute privilege this privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are also reminded of longstanding parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the House or an official, by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome Mr. Fred Barry, chief executive officer of the National Roads Authority, Mr. Hugh Creegan, head of the PPP section of the NRA and Mr. Michael Egan, head of corporate affairs. I invite Mr. Fred Barry to make a short presentation followed by questions and answers.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the Chairman and committee members for the invitation. I am joined by Mr. Michael Egan, head of corporate affairs and professional services and Mr. Hugh Creegan, head of public private partnership, commercial operations and strategic planning. We have already been advised of many of committee members' queries.

Deputy McEntee asked about the status of the M3. The M3 upgrade, from Clonee to Kells, includes bypasses of Dunboyne, Dunshaughlin, Navan and Kells. It consists of approximately 61 km of mainline dual carriageway and an additional 50 km of regional and local road upgrades. Progress is excellent and the work is likely to be complete ahead of the scheduled Q3 2010 date. Some road improvements have opened already, such as the regional road at Dunboyne and part of the national secondary N51 road improvements at Navan. The scheme is being developed as a tolled PPP scheme, with the State paying directly for planning, archaeology, advance works, land acquisition and making construction contributions. The budget for direct costs is €652 million, of which €477 million has been expended to date.

Deputy McEntee also asked about the N2 Slane bypass. We discussed this project with the committee a few months ago and at that time advised that the compulsory purchase order and environmental impact statement documentation would be complete by the end of October this year. It was complete but, coincidentally, at the end of October An Bord Pleanála rejected the proposed Ballybofey-Stranorlar bypass. We agreed with Meath County Council engineers that the Slane bypass documentation should be reviewed in light of the comments of An Bord Pleanála on Ballybofey-Stranorlar. This review is taking place and we expect the documentation to be revised and finalised in December. We expect an oral hearing on the Slane bypass proposal in 2010 and approval or rejection by An Bord Pleanála will follow later in the year.

Deputy Connaughton asked about the legal obligations of the N6 Concessionaire Company currently constructing the Galway to Ballinasloe scheme with regard to drainage and local road repair. The position is that the concessionaire has contractual obligations to provide road drainage in accordance with the drawings and specifications forming part of its contract and relevant technical codes of practice and standards. It is also obliged to maintain the relevant drainage works within the project boundaries for the life of its concession. The works are independently certified at completion of construction. Contractual failures during the life of the contract lead to escalating penalty points, which, if not resolved, lead to termination of the concession.

The concessionaire has obligations to repair local roads subjected to undue wear and tear by construction traffic, although it is fully entitled to use public roads in the same manner and subject to the same restrictions as other road users. Agreement has been reached between the NRA, the concessionaire and Galway County Council on the extent of the obligations of the concessionaire and the NRA in this regard. As well as a programme of works being carried out by the concession company, the NRA has provided a payment contribution to Galway County Council to use at its discretion with regard to works to be carried out on these local roads.

The issue of safety in the Dublin Port tunnel has been raised by Deputy O'Dowd. This issue was extensively discussed at two previous attendances before this committee, in March and October of last year. There has been some recent media coverage concerning two reports on the tunnel systems — one by Egis and one by Mr. Martin Kelly, consultant. The report by Egis was the subject of considerable discussion at the committee meeting in October of last year. The report by Mr. Kelly pre-dates the Egis report by some months but essentially covers many of the same topics. Both reports identified deficiencies in some of the systems installed by the contractor who designed and built the tunnel. The existence of these issues was already largely known to the tunnel operator, Transroute, and the NRA and improvement works were already under way. These reports were prepared to assist in dealing with the contractor on these issues and in the actual undertaking of the various improvement works. These reports do not maintain that the tunnel was at any time operated unsafely. Indeed, the authors of both of these reports confirmed, and have reconfirmed, that they are satisfied the tunnel has been and continues to be operated safely. When the tunnel needed to be closed because of system issues, it was closed despite criticisms in some quarters that we were closing the tunnel unnecessarily.

Next month will see the completion of three years of operation of the Dublin Port tunnel. Since we last discussed tunnel safety with the committee, there have been no closures of the tunnel due to traffic accidents or fire incidents within it. During this period, a major training exercise simulating a major tunnel emergency was carried out with the involvement of the fire services, the ambulance services, the Gardaí plus the tunnel operating staff and overseen by the tunnel safety officer. That exercise was very successful with all participants and systems performing as intended.

The provisions of the EU Directive 2004/54/EC require that, "every two years, member states shall compile reports on fires in tunnels and on accidents which clearly affect the safety of road users in tunnels, and on the frequency and causes of such incidents, and shall evaluate them and provide information on the actual role and effectiveness of safety facilities and measures". That report was compiled in April 2008 and provided to the Department of Transport which, we understand, forwarded it to the European Commission. It confirmed one significant fire event, which occurred on 11 March 2008 when fire and smoke was detected from the rear axle of a HGV vehicle travelling through the northbound tunnel tube. The next report will be compiled in 2010.

Deputies Broughan and Ahern asked about the M50 upgrade works generally. The M50 upgrade consists of the widening of approximately 32 km of the motorway mainline carriageway, junction upgrades at the Red Cow, Liffey Valley, Ballymount, the M1, Ballymun, Finglas, Blanchardstown, Tallaght, Scholarstown and Sandyford, the removal of the toll barriers and plaza at the West-Link bridge and their replacement with a barrier-free system, together with various ancillary works. Construction work started in the central section during 2006 and the overall project has a target completion date of the end of 2010. I am pleased to advise the committee that excellent progress has been made in the work, and we are confident that it will be completed by the end of 2010, as originally envisaged. Significant sections of the work are already complete. In particular the central section, from just south of the N3 Blanchardstown junction to Ballymount junction, has been fully opened to traffic as the first completed phase of the work, inclusive of the upgraded Red Cow, Liffey Valley and Ballymount junctions.

Along the southern section of the M50, work is progressing well and it is expected that this section of the project will be substantially complete early next year. Along the northern section of the M50, three lanes in each direction have been operational for a number of months and we anticipate completing this northern section, from just north of the N3 Blanchardstown junction to the M1 junction, in the first quarter of next year. This includes the upgrades to the N2, Ballymun and M1 junctions.

The works at the M1 junction have been challenging given the proximity to, and the access requirements of, Dublin Airport and the Dublin Port tunnel. Arising from this, it was necessary that a significant amount of the construction work was carried out outside of normal hours and this, unfortunately, did cause a level of inconvenience to adjacent residents in the Turnapin Estate. However, with the imminent completion of the upgrade works to this junction these issues should be resolved.

The committee may be interested to know that the work in the vicinity of the M1 and M50 junction was rescheduled to facilitate an increased traffic level on the route following the Broadmeadow Viaduct collapse. In addition, the Dublin Port tunnel has proved very useful and effective in facilitating extra bus traffic to and from the city centre as a consequence of the loss of the rail connection.

The M50 barrier-free tolling system has achieved its strategic objective of eliminating the bottlenecks associated with the barriers, and the delays of 30 minutes or more each day, which were a feature of the former toll plaza, are no longer experienced by tens of thousands of road users. The dismantling of the barriers and the provision of additional lanes on the M50 have removed traffic congestion and also reduced transport costs. The motorway is operating much more efficiently with substantial benefits for freight transporters and other users alike.

Approximately 35 million journeys, comprising almost 2 million different vehicles, have taken place over the tolled section of the motorway since the introduction of the barrier-free tolling system. Approximately three quarters of users have set up automatic toll payment accounts either using electronic tags, which can be used at other toll plazas, or using an account based on their number plate.

As with any new start-up operation, the processes and systems for the new barrier-free operation have been refined and improved over the 14 months since opening and will continue to evolve in the months and years ahead. It is worth noting that following the initial "go-live" phase of the project, we were not satisfied with the quality of customer service being provided to road users who contacted the project's call centre. That original call centre has now been replaced with a new call centre. The quality of customer service has increased substantially since that change occurred and callers to the call centre now receive a much more efficient and effective service.

No barrier-free tolling arrangement can be successful without having a system in place to provide a deterrent to non-payment and an incentive for toll payment compliance. That is why the toll scheme employed on the M50 includes a penalty structure providing for increasing penalty payments linked to the period that the toll remains unpaid. Those deterrent arrangements involve transferring unpaid toll cases to a firm of solicitors who provide debt collection services. More than 5,000 civil summonses were issued up to the end of October and three court dates have occurred in the District Court. We are satisfied that the processes in place will continue to promote adherence to the payment requirements.

Deputy Broughan asked about the status of the major interurban routes The interurban network will be complete by the end of 2010, in keeping with the schedule set out in 2005 and I will outline the status of individual routes. The M1 and N1 to the Border is complete. The M4, M6 and N6 between Galway and Dublin is complete between Dublin and Ballinasloe; the Ballinasloe to Galway section is likely to open early in the New Year; and ancillary works will be completed in the following months. It may open prior to Christmas but that is not certain as safety audits must be conducted before it can open. The Dublin to Portlaoise upgrade is complete other than Newlands Cross. Part of the mainline between Nenagh and Limerick will open shortly, possibly before Christmas and the balance of the work to Limerick will be completed towards the end of 2010. The Portlaoise to Cork route is complete except for approximately 20 kms at the Portlaoise end. This section will be completed toward the end of 2010. The Carlow bypass on the Waterford route is complete. The sections between Waterford and Knocktopher and from Kilcullen to Carlow are well advanced, and the section from Carlow to Knocktopher is likely to be the last section completed, again towards the end of 2010.

Deputy Broughan asked about service areas. Three service areas are being constructed at present and they should be open for business by the end of 2010. The Minister for Transport has directed us to cease further Exchequer expenditure on service areas for now, in view of the state of the public finances. We are exploring the possibility of private sector financing and, for example, we are tendering a service area on the N11 as part of a PPP scheme. However, the planned tender process for a second group of service areas has been cancelled.

Deputy Broughan asked about the N25, which runs from Rosslare in County Wexford to the west of Cork City, where it joins the N22. Various sections of the route are at differing stages of development. The N25 and N11 from Oilgate to Rosslare is at route selection. The New Ross bypass has been approved by An Bord Pleanála but that approval is subject to judicial review. It is hoped to develop this scheme as a PPP, but the delay in resolving the judicial review has caused the deferral of the tender process. The Waterford City bypass opened recently, well ahead of schedule. Design and improvements between Carrigtwohill and Midleton, primarily to improve safety by closing some of the median gaps, is well advanced. A number of junctions on the Cork southern ring road are in need of upgrades, similar to the very successful upgrade of the Kinsale Road junction. The upgrades are approved by An Bord Pleanála and the necessary land acquisition is under way. Construction will follow when funding allows.

Deputy Broughan asked about the N5, which runs from Westport in County Mayo to Longford. The section between Westport and Bohola is in planning at present, and the CPO and EIS documentation will be completed during 2010. The Ballaghadereen bypass was approved by An Bord Pleanála in 2009. Construction will follow when funding allows. The Longford bypass was approved by An Bord Pleanála in July 2008. Construction will follow when funding allows. Other sections, such as the Charlestown bypass, have been improved in recent years.

Deputy Broughan asked about the N11, which runs from Wexford to Dublin. Significant sections have been improved in recent years. However, there is a bad section that requires attention between Rathnew and Arklow, the upgrade of which has been approved by An Bord Pleanála for some time. The construction work is being tendered as part of a PPP competition at the moment, and we expect to sign the PPP contract towards the end of 2010. Further south, the proposal for the Gorey to Enniscorthy section of the N11 is with An Bord Pleanála at present.

Deputy Broughan asked about the Leinster outer orbital development. The feasibility study was completed as required under the Transport 21 plan and submitted to the then Minister for Transport in 2007 but there has not yet been a direction from the Minister or the Government on it. We are working with Meath County Council to protect the future route, which is a challenge given that the route corridor is fairly wide.

Deputy Broughan also asked about the impact of budgetary cutbacks. While the NRA capital budget for 2009 of €1.4 billion was a significant amount, it was more than €300 million below the planned multi-annual Transport 21 provision. The impact of the cut was that the moneys available for work not already under contract was limited, whereas work already under contract continued. The only new road scheme to start in 2009 was the Castleisland bypass. We will not know our 2010 allocation until after budget day but we expect that it will be significantly less than the 2009 level.

Our first priority for any discretionary money in 2010 will be to carry out safety remedial works and bridge and pavement rehabilitation. It may be the case that no new major schemes will start in that year. The committee may be aware that we suspended planning on a number of schemes during the past year and it is likely that we will suspend further schemes reaching phase completion in the coming year in light of the cutbacks and the new programme for Government. We will try, in so far as possible, to bring schemes that are at route selection stage to the point of identifying a preferred route before suspending work on them so as to minimise the impact on local development. However, that may not be possible in all cases.

Deputy Cuffe asked a number of questions relating to public private partnership schemes being undertaken by the authority. The M3 PPP contract includes a traffic guarantee mechanism. The essence of such a mechanism, which is a common feature worldwide of large tolled infrastructure projects, is that where actual traffic levels on the road fall below predefined levels the contracting authority, in this case the NRA, makes certain payments to the concession company to compensate for the traffic shortfall up to the guaranteed level only. In the case of the M3, the traffic shortfall payments are subject to a number of conditions, the most substantial being that any payments made under it cannot be greater than 90% of debt service payments in any period when added to the toll revenues collected. This still leaves the concession company operating on a loss basis because it will have to fund ongoing operational costs as well as remaining debt service amounts. The rationale for introducing the traffic guarantee on the M3 scheme, although not on earlier schemes, arose due to its larger financial scale than the schemes in which the NRA had been involved previously. The scale of the private debt involved was approximately twice that of the earlier schemes. This traffic guarantee was solely developed with the final concession company but formed the basis upon which all of the companies and their banks tendered for the project. Ireland sought and received clearance from the European Commission for the guarantee.

The level of traffic guarantee set out in the PPP contract for the initial year of operation is a combined total for the two plazas of 25,250 vehicles per day. If the traffic levels are 25,000 and the debt level thresholds are contravened, the concessionaire would receive an additional payment of approximately €100,000. If the traffic levels are 35,000 no additional payment arises.

Deputy Cuffe also asked whether a traffic guarantee arises in any other PPP scheme procured to date. I can confirm that a traffic guarantee provision has been included in the Limerick tunnel PPP scheme. There were two reasons for its inclusion in this scheme, namely, to improve the bankability of a large and complex scheme and because the traffic modelling demonstrated that the forecast usage of the tolled tunnel varied considerably depending on assumptions about the implementation of Limerick City Council's proposed city centre traffic management proposals. The NRA took the view that it would be inappropriate for tenders to take the element of traffic risk contingent on the implementation of the council's city centre traffic management plan and that transferring such risk would not yield value for money. The traffic guarantee on the Limerick tunnel commences at 17,200 vehicles per day subject to debt levels provision. As the traffic guarantees diminish significantly with time both in terms of percent of forecast guaranteed and in terms of the outstanding debt level, the Government's smarter travel policy, which post-dates the PPP contracts, is unlikely to be affected. The traffic guarantees for the Limerick project were also formally approved by the European Commission.

Deputy Cuffe asked about the cost of the M50 PPP scheme. The budget for direct costs is €371 million plus annual payments of €20.9 million in January 2006 prices. The annual payments will be adjusted each year in accordance with the consumer price index. These M50 annual payments provide for not only the repayment of the capital works but also for the ongoing operation and maintenance of the M50 and life cycle rehabilitation works throughout the 35 year concession. The PPP company is also obliged to meet hand-back requirements such that the road is returned to the State in a satisfactory condition. These payments are not tied to traffic levels.

Deputy Cuffe asked about PPP schemes at the planning stage. His first query concerns the form of contract proposed to be utilised. As these are proposed PPP contracts, I presume the Deputy is focusing on the payment mechanism within the contracts. The schemes currently being proposed for development as PPP projects are intended to be procured on what is referred to as an availability basis. Essentially, this means that the successful bidder will, following construction of the relevant project, be paid an annual payment, also referred to as a unitary payment, for financing designing, constructing and operating the road. The period over which the companies will operate and maintain the road and receive this annual payment is envisaged to be in the order of 25 years. These payments are not linked to traffic but to maintaining the road available for use to the required standard. The concession company is not given any rights to toll the road.

At present two such schemes are at the procurement stage. These are the N17-N18, Gort-Tuam PPP scheme, extending from Gort to the north side of Tuam, and the N11 Arklow-Rathnew, including Newlands Cross, PPP scheme. It is anticipated that the contracts for those two projects will be awarded at the end of next year with construction commencing shortly thereafter. As the projects are currently at the bidding stage, payment obligations are not yet decided.

In regard to the road type proposed for each of these schemes, established road design standards set out the carrying capacity of different road types plus the cross-sectional and geometric parameters that should apply at different traffic levels. In the case of the proposed PPP schemes, the forecast traffic flows are such that a single carriageway provision would be insufficient and a dual carriageway arrangement is required. The committee will be aware that An Bord Pleanála will be reviewing these matters in detail.

Deputy Cuffe asked whether alternative routes were considered for the New Ross bypass. Numerous route and bridge options were assessed and evaluated prior to the identification of the currently approved scheme as the most appropriate solution. Several public consultations were undertaken including the statutory consultation associated with the publication of the environmental impact study for the project in late 2007 and an oral hearing by An Bord Pleanála in April 2008. Subsequent to these consultations and the oral hearing, An Bord Pleanála approved the development in December of last year. A legal challenge against that decision was lodged by way of an application for a judicial review and that case is expected to be heard in the High Court during 2010.

Deputy Cuffe also asked about the 2009 expenditure on the PPP schemes which are currently in operation. Four schemes are currently in operation, namely, the M1 Dundalk western bypass, the M4 Kilcock-Kinnegad, the M8 Fermoy bypass and the N25 Waterford bypass. The total amount payable to the concession companies during the current year for these schemes amounts to approximately €23 million. None of the schemes has traffic guarantees. The outgoings for the remaining period of the concessions will depend on the share of toll revenue paid to the authority.

The committee may be aware that the Comptroller and Auditor General included a comprehensive report on PPP commitments in his 2008 accounts of the public services, which were published in September 2009.

I thank Mr. Barry for his comprehensive response to members questions. I propose to call members in the order in which they were mentioned.

As the speaker for the main Opposition party, I have made it clear that I wish to discuss issues arising in respect of evidence given to us last year by Mr. Barry and the safety of the Dublin Port tunnel. When the Chairman proposed this meeting, I made it clear that we needed more time than was initially allocated to discuss these issues. We normally discuss major issues first at committee meetings and I want to discuss the safety of the Dublin Port tunnel. There is nothing more critical or important than that.

I agree with Deputy O'Dowd. Government Deputies have access in this regard.

I had a proposal but if the Deputies do not agree with it, that is fine.

I have sent e-mails to the National Roads Authority but it has refused to answer the questions in them. It refused until recently to allow me speak to the safety officer in the tunnel. I want to allow sufficient time to get a proper explanation.

Deputy McEntee is not here so his contribution is out of the way. Does Deputy Connaughton want to comment?

I will come in later.

Deputy O'Dowd will be next and then Deputy Broughan.

Last year we had evidence in the form of the Martin Kelly report. Mr. Barry was not familiar with it at the time. I sought a copy of it through a freedom of information request and it was only due to the intervention of the Information Commissioner, on appeal, that the report was released to me. The Egis report, which was discussed here in draft form, was released to me as well and it was only at that time I saw its conclusions.

The key point in this serious matter is that both of these reports — from October 2007 and May 2008 — make it clear that the tunnel was unsafe. The recommendation of the Egis report was very clear. It stated, "Considering all the results and the lack of reliability and considering our experience in the past with very similar systems that could never be improved or be made reliable, we are convinced a replacement of the system should be favoured". Is the tunnel safe and has the system been completely replaced as recommended by that report?

Mr. Fred Barry

The best way to deal with the question of whether the tunnel is safe is to read some statements we have from some of the participants.

That is not the question I asked. I did not ask about statements. I have two professional reports commissioned by the NRA and kept secret from me and which we were given to me after the intervention of the Information Commissioner. I am asking if the tunnel is safe. Has the SCADA system been completely replaced? It is a "Yes" or a "No" answer.

Mr. Fred Barry

With respect, I will answer in whatever fashion I see fit.

With respect, the NRA refused to answer the questions I sent via e-mail. The questions were designed to elicit "Yes" or "No" answers. I am asking them again today. We are here as Members of the Oireachtas and are charged with asking these questions. The witness is charged with answering them.

Mr. Fred Barry

The first statement I will read is from Martin Kelly, whom Deputy O'Dowd has referenced and who is the author of one of the reports. He states:

Any issues encountered with equipment faults, equipment performance or traffic incidents occurring were managed safely and correctly by the operations team in accordance with the approved prescribed tunnel operating procedures. It is my opinion that the Dublin Port tunnel has been operated safely at all times during my involvement with the tunnel.

That is signed by Mr. Martin Kelly.

What is the date on that statement?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is 29 October 2009. We also have a statement from Egis, the authors of the other report. It states: "We refer to public comments in relation to the Dublin Port tunnel. Egis wish to reconfirm that the tunnel is and always has been operated safely". Egis had confirmed this before. On the SCADA system, Egis stated that they "confirm [our] satisfaction with the modified SCADA system in operation in the tunnel".

The position in the tunnel is that the SCADA system has not been replaced but it has been significantly modified and upgraded. The company which thought in the first instance that it should be replaced has changed its position, accepted that the modifications are adequate and have given a statement to that effect.

May we see that report?

Mr. Fred Barry

We invited Mr. Kelly, the author of the other report, to attend the committee today but he declined. He gave the statement I read for the benefit of the committee.

That is an improvement on Mr. Barry not knowing that he even existed last year. There is evidence in technical reports which we have here. Will Mr. Barry show me a technical report rather than a statement showing that all the issues, which were dealt with individually in both of these reports, have been dealt with? Are there other independent reports?

Mr. Fred Barry

Mr. Martin Kelly is quite independent.

I am not asking about that. I am asking for his report. Mr. Barry made a statement but where is the report?

Mr. Fred Barry

We are quite happy to make these statements public.

This is a serious issue. I am asking for technical reports. I will read some of Mr. Kelly's report from 2007. It states:

Critical electrical equipment is overheating in most equipment rooms. When this type of equipment is overheating, it performs erratically or fails completely. Over time, consistent overheating can cause permanent damage to electronic equipment. There have been a number of occasions when the tunnel has been closed when electronic equipment failed to perform.

The report on the communications network is important. The report states:

The installed network was not designed and configured for the safety requirements of the port tunnel. This system does not provide back-up redundancy and threatens widespread systems failure.

It continues "The SCADA system freezes and prevents any operator from controlling it during this time". It refers to specific dates in an eight-day period when there were approximately 1,000 communication errors daily, although towards the end of June this had reduced to approximately 40 per day. The SCADA control system used commercial-grade PCs running in a safety-critical environment, which is totally against standard practice.

The only way we could say the system is now fine is if those PCs were replaced. I will quote from the Egis summary, which was not discussed here last year. That report considered the SCADA system as well and states:

The results of these tests confirm that the system is unable to provide the required level of safety. This is due to lack of reliability, to SCADA's inadequate architecture and design and operating deficiencies. It would be inefficient to improve the system. The system is unsuitable to ensure the tunnel's safe operation, in particular because of unpredictable and erratic transmission times, leading to a range of one to four minutes between an event detection and the action itself.

That is very important if one considers that in the case of a fire, all people must be evacuated within ten minutes of the fire starting. After that, the risk of people being killed by the fire is extremely high.

Four minutes of response time could be lost because of a system that does not work and the company has recommended that it should be completely replaced. There could be an appalling tragedy like what happened in the Mont Blanc tunnel when people continued to go into the tunnel after the original fire started. If it takes six minutes to travel through the tunnel and four minutes could pass before a fire warning would issued, two thirds of the tunnel could be full of traffic in that time.

I do not accept that Mr. Barry has been objective in responding to my questions. He has read out statements but I want to see reports. I cannot understand how the tunnel opened with these deficiencies and the poor standard of equipment.

Mr. Fred Barry

It is interesting that the Mont Blanc tunnel should be mentioned because subsequent to the dreadful fires in the tunnel, major investigations were done in Europe as to what should be done in tunnels and from that, much of what is now in the safety directive emerged. One of the key figures in that was Michel Legrande, a French engineer, and he was the safety engineer who certified that we could open the tunnel in the first instance.

The point is that after the fire started in the tunnel, people continued to go into it. That is the same problem that is identified in this report. I do not care who certified the tunnel. If the system did not respond for up to four minutes, there would be four minutes of traffic in the tunnel. That is two thirds of the tunnel.

I ask the Deputy to give Mr. Barry a chance to respond.

Mr. Fred Barry

The authors of the reports to which the Deputy refers have stated publicly that they are now fully satisfied with the current systems and consider that the actions taken to deal with safety issues when the tunnel opened were carried out safely. They have been categorical in stating that the tunnel was operated safely at all times. We also had a statement from the tunnel safety officer — who was, when the tunnel opened, the man who dealt with the Mont Blanc situation for the French Government — stating that the tunnel operated safely at all times. Again, he said that in full knowledge of the issues with the operating equipment.

For clarity on what Deputy O'Dowd is saying, does the NRA have the report the Deputy is quoting? Is it possible for Mr. Barry to give him the reports he is looking for?

Mr. Fred Barry

The Egis report was available in draft form last year but we wanted to delay the release of the final version because we were still in commercial negotiations, as we advised the committee. The situation was similar for the Martin Kelly report. I remind the committee that these reports were commissioned for and on behalf of Dublin City Council and the NRA to help us ensure that defects were addressed. The negotiations are all over now so we have released the reports, which are available to anybody. The individuals involved — both Martin Kelly and those in Egis — have been working with the NRA, Dublin City Council and the operator in addressing all the issues involved. That is what allowed them to make those statements.

They can make statements, but we want a report. I will go back to the issue: is the tunnel safe now? I refer again to the statements of Egis and the professional operators which I mentioned earlier about tunnels with similar equipment. Let us listen again to what they said.

To help members, will the Deputy tell us what report he is quoting from?

I am quoting from the final Egis report.

What date is on the report?

There are two reports. The Egis report is from 27 May 2008. There is no other safety report. In the freedom of information request we asked for all reports in the possession of the NRA on safety issues, and these are the two we received following the intervention of the Information Commissioner. The report states that considering all the results and the lack of reliability and in view of its experience with similar systems in the past, "we are convinced a replacement of the system should be favoured". Any improvement will not be able to achieve the main target. That is it.

Mr. Fred Barry

I agree that was the original view, but Egis was subsequently convinced otherwise, which is why it says so in this statement.

That is not a report. The report can only be based on an engineering analysis of what the NRA has done and the cost of what has been done.

Is there a report from Egis?

Is there a further report?

Mr. Fred Barry

We will take the transcripts of this meeting, which will have all of Deputy O'Dowd's questions, give them to Egis and ask it to give a more detailed response.

Is there a report at the moment from Egis other than the statement Mr. Barry has there?

Mr. Fred Barry

We are into semantics as to what constitutes a report, a statement and so on. I have here——

How often are safety audits conducted, and when was the last one? We had a recent near-disaster with CIE, which has made us especially careful about such issues. When was the last audit of all the systems?

Mr. Fred Barry

The last major emergency drill, which included an audit of everything and simulated a major incident in the tunnel, was earlier this year.

Is that not done quite regularly? I thought the tunnel closed down for periods in which all the systems would be investigated.

Mr. Fred Barry

We do that for the individual elements, but a major emergency drill involving the emergency services is conducted under the direction of the tunnel safety officer, who issues an independent view.

For clarity on the report from which Deputy O'Dowd is quoting, which is quite serious, can Mr. Barry say in response that there is now a report that deals with all these issues and which resulted in the short statement he read out?

Mr. Fred Barry

The individual issues have been dealt with. They will not all be encapsulated in a single report.

That is not good enough.

That is a major change in policy from the company. One would imagine that whatever the reason for the change of view, it would be well documented. That is what we are looking for: the explanation from Egis for its change of view. Mr. Barry can imagine how anxious we are for this information because this is a major issue. If the report is there, as it should be — I am sure it is — we would like to know this. Why did Egis change its view and, having done so, why does the NRA not make the reason public?

Mr. Fred Barry

As to whether the tunnel is safe, I remind members that Egis employees, who were relied on heavily in criticisms of the safety systems, are working day in day out in the tunnel. It is inconceivable that they would be deliberately putting their own lives at risk by working there year after year if they thought the systems were unsafe.

We are talking about people travelling through the tunnel. That is a safety issue for them.

I ask the Deputy to allow Mr. Barry to continue without interruption.

Mr. Fred Barry

If there were a major incident in the tunnel it would probably affect some of those who work there as well.

The various reports by Mr. Kelly and Egis raise a series of different issues. The responses to those issues may not be contained in a single document but may be in several places.

Excuse me, Chairman. That is a critical point. We have two reports saying the tunnel is unsafe and the systems need to be replaced. What is the name of the report that says it is safe now? That is the question. Can we have a copy of it?

Mr. Fred Barry

The document on which I am relying is the statement from Egis saying the tunnel is safe.

That is not good enough.

What is the date on the statement from Egis that Mr. Barry is reading?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is 22 October 2009. It is current. However, I am undertaking to go back to Egis and pass on the questions raised here at this meeting. I will provide a transcript of the questions so it does not miss anything and ask for a comprehensive response for the benefit of the committee.

The Deputies are making a fair point that these reports were there in mid-2008 and now Mr. Barry is saying everything is all right. We should have clarity in this regard.

Mr. Fred Barry

I am happy to provide that. I did ask if Mr. Martin Kelly would join us today because he was originally quite critical of the tunnel but during the course of further discussions and the works that were carried out he became convinced that everything was all right. He did not want to appear in front of the committee but he did give a statement.

He must have had a technical report in order to do that. One cannot just take statements and cut and paste them out of the blue. There must be a report because these issues are so serious. Mr. Barry is talking about a report that he does not seem to have.

I have a related question. Where electrical or electronic equipment of such importance is either enhanced or improved in any infrastructure, but especially in such a tunnel, surely a technical assessment or certification is carried out by competent persons. In every area, whether electrics or otherwise, there is a certification process. Are such documents or certification reports available with regard to improvements carried out in the port tunnel?

Mr. Fred Barry

I agree with the Senator. Whenever such work is carried out it is documented. That is why I have undertaken to have Egis assemble the documentation regarding all the changes that were carried out over this period and prepare a report which will be available to the committee and to the public.

At the meeting we had almost a year ago, Mr. Barry did not know who Martin Kelly was; he said he had never heard of him. Then he said there might be a report or there might not. He frustrated the committee, and me as an Oireachtas Member, with regard to obtaining the information for one full year. Now he is telling me it is all right but he has no report.

Mr. Fred Barry

What I actually said, or meant to say, at the meeting last year was that I was not personally acquainted with Mr. Kelly. Others who were with me that day were, and they were able to tell the committee who he was. Furthermore, when we are engaged in commercial negotiations we regularly withhold reports and documents until they are concluded. I make no apology for doing that.

I refer to the action attributed to us earlier by Deputy O'Dowd when he stated we prevented him from contacting the tunnel safety officer. The tunnel safety officer declined to speak directly with Deputy O'Dowd. He stated he wanted to communicate with him in written format, by e-mail or letter. That is a matter for the tunnel safety officer; it is not for me to say whether he should——

I can inform Mr. Barry that he does not know what his organisation is doing. I have before me a letter to me on this issue. The letter dates from 28 October and it states:

I confirm that I provided you yesterday with the name and address of the safety tunnel officer. I confirm that you requested in our call this morning that I provide you with a telephone number so that I could talk to this gentleman. I declined to provide his number and advised that I [Mr. Creegan] considered it more appropriate that communications with this gentleman should be in writing rather than by phone call. I consider that written forms of communications are more appropriate in order to avoid any unintentional misunderstandings or incorrect recollections given the complexities of the subject matter.

The NRA offered to take a letter from me. The EU directive states that the tunnel safety officer may be an employee of a body such as the National Roads Authority. I refer to the directive.

Mr. Fred Barry

No, he is not an employee of the NRA.

The directive states the tunnel safety officer may be an employee of the authority or may be an employee of the road safety services, the fire brigade or whatever. However, he should be independent at all times in the performance of his duty and he cannot be interfered with by the authority in the performance of his duties. This represents a total interference by the NRA of my attempt to contact this man at that time. That is what is going on.

Mr. Fred Barry

I believe we gave the Deputy his name and address to contact him. I also believe he has been in communication with Deputy O'Dowd directly to indicate he does not wish to speak to him and wishes to communicate——

That is not true.

Mr. Fred Barry

That is what——

I contacted the Minister's office and the Department insisted he should be able or allowed to communicate with me and he was. While he initially stated that he could only revert through Mr. Creegan, he then agreed that I could forward to him the details of my questions and that I could arrange a meeting with him, along with two other professionals who could put queries. This is not about Mr. Barry and I or playing games; this is about people's lives and the tunnel. It was the biggest structure built in the country since Ardnacrusha and it cost almost €750 million. We seek transparency, openness and accountability but we are not getting them. I reject the way in which the NRA carries out its business and I am horrified by what has taken place. I insist the NRA must be accountable and we will hold Mr. Barry's organisation accountable here. I seek the assurances and access to the report. I want to meet the safety officer.

Why was the tunnel opened in the first place when it was in such a bad condition in terms of the technology? It could not work. This document states they do not know why some of the materials were ordered and that it was not fit for purpose. This is unbelievable. This is the largest infrastructure project in the history of the State. Why was it opened in the first place? There was an upcoming general election and perhaps political pressure was applied. How did this happen?

Mr. Fred Barry

I am unsure whether the safety officer was aware a general election was coming up.

Actually, he was.

Mr. Fred Barry

I appreciate that. I do not believe the safety officer was too concerned about the imminent----

He may not have been.

The speaker without interruption, please.

I am referring to Mr. Barry, the NRA and the decision made to open the tunnel. Were any of these items tested? Was the SCADA system tested?

On a point of order, a political charge has been made to the effect that the tunnel was opened at a time supposedly opportune for the Government, which Mr. Barry should address.

I said a general election was imminent.

The clear implication is that it would benefit the Government at the time.

I never said that. I stated there was pressure to open the tunnel.

That is a political charge.

The tunnel was unsafe when it was open. I am asking why it was opened.

Can I finish my point of order? There are two matters at issue.

I seek the answers to these questions from Mr. Barry.

There may or may not have been an issue about the safety of the tunnel and its opening. Mr. Barry and Deputy O'Dowd are correct to address that situation. However, a political charge has been made suggesting that some political interference was used to open the tunnel early. Will Mr. Barry address that point separately?

A serious charge has been made.

That is rubbish.

It is a very serious charge. It has as much validity as the rubbish that the Deputy has been putting out for the past hour.

The tunnel was opened in an unsafe condition. That is a fact. Mr. Barry should note the SCADA system did not operate. Who signed off on it?

Mr. Barry must have an opportunity to speak.

On a point of order, the NRA is answerable for everything to this committee and fully answerable to the Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am also a member. The safety of the tunnel is critical. The NRA is also responsible for a wide variety of major transport infrastructure in the country. Given that the RPA and a bus company are due to appear before the committee we should have an opportunity to hear some of the other issues under the remit of the chief executive.

A serious charge has been made to the effect that the tunnel was opened but was not safe. Mr. Barry must have an opportunity to refute that.

It continued for two years in that condition.

This is a very serious allegation. He has already mentioned the safety procedures entered into and referred to the man who approved the tunnel. I call on Mr. Barry to deal comprehensively with that allegation.

It is helpful to note this continued until May 2008.

I call on Mr. Barry to respond to this very serious allegation.

Mr. Fred Barry

The tunnel was opened in the first instance following certification from the then safety officer, Mr. Michel Legrand. He was fully aware of all the issues of which we have spoken at this meeting and related matters. He referred to difficulties with the SCADA system and other matters. He then stated, "the tunnel safety officer therefore advises the authority to progress with the opening of the Dublin port tunnel with the following restrictions". The committee may recall that when first opened, the tunnel was restricted to HGV traffic in one lane only. That was in response to the advice of the then safety officer. There were difficulties many, but not all, of which had been resolved by opening day, and a partial opening was appropriate. One month later he gave further advice to the effect that it was okay to open the balance of the tunnel. It was not done on political direction.

Okay. That is one issue.

Can we have copies of that documentation?

That is one issue dealt with. Mr. Barry maintains, following the questioning in regard to the 2008 report and his statement today, the tunnel is safe and that he will provide the documentation from the two companies involved as a result of the questioning today. That is an adequate response to what is a very important issue that we all accept.

I have not made an allegation; this is a fact. I make the point again that up to the fifth month of 2008, that is, the date of the report, the tunnel was unsafe. That is what the report suggests.

We must accept——

Mr. Fred Barry

There is an understandable confusion between equipment not functioning properly and the tunnel being operated unsafely. If equipment is not working properly, one may be obliged to close the tunnel occasionally because it is not possible to work around it. That is what happened. The committee may remember in the earlier operations of the tunnel there were repeated closures. That is not to say the equipment was working as it should have, but the response was to close the tunnel, not to operate it unsafely.

In some cases, if equipment is not working properly it is possible to do a work-around. One can make manual interventions which perhaps cost more in time and effort. One may work manually rather than using equipment but certain things can be done to operate safely. We seem to be talking at cross purposes. Deputy O'Dowd is making the point that there were many problems and malfunctions with the equipment and so on. He is correct to say there were such problems. We have done a good deal of arm wrestling with the contractor on the public's behalf over these issues for a long time to get them fixed and sorted out. We do not disagree with anyone over the statements that a good deal of the equipment needed change, improvement or whatever. However, it is a different thing to say notwithstanding that, the tunnel was operated unsafely; it was not. It was either closed on certain occasions or something was done to work around the problems.

I will make a final reply to this. I refer to the executive summary of the report. The poor conditions in the tunnel led the DTO, Dublin Transportation Office, to introduce numerous mitigation measures in order to ensure the tunnel operated to an acceptable level of safety. However, these temporary measures are not flexible and involve important additional staff but nobody should forget that the system itself is not safe and must be upgraded as a matter of urgency.

That is the issue on which we have sought clarification and on which clarification will be given. We have been given an assurance that when the tunnel opened it was safe to do so and it has been safe since. That is the important point.

On a final point, it would be useful to have some record of ongoing safety audits of the tunnel.

I wish to broaden out the discussion regarding one of the issues the delegation covered which I, through the secretariat, asked it to discuss, namely, motorway service areas. There is great disappointment, particularly from the Road Safety Authority, that only three such areas are to be constructed and that the overall programme of approximately 12 will not proceed.

We should commend the delegation for the swift progress it has made to develop inter-urban routes and the fact that the entire Galway to Dublin connection will finally reach motorway standard in a couple of months. It is a very good achievement, as is the time within which it was achieved.

On the issue of service stations, is it the case that the three service stations will cost some €120 million, of which €20 million comprises land costs? I understand there is an arrangement between the SuperStop consortium and Bank of Ireland, which is now partially owned by ourselves, to fund some of the project. However, ultimately, the NRA has to come up with €47 million in order to enable three such stations to go ahead.

I have received correspondence and have heard comments in the media asking if we are building luxury hotels with swimming pools or small resort centres on the M1 or the M4 or whatever. Why is it costing so much? Why does it seem that the public purse will have to pay the cost of all of this over a 25 year period?

Mr. Fred Barry

I agree it does sound expensive but the cost is not €120 million. On the specifications for the service area, there is far more involved that just petrol stations. There will be parking for HGVs and cars, something which we were encouraged by the Health and Safety Authority to provide.

We are very familiar with such areas as we have seen them abroad, particularly in the UK.

Mr. Fred Barry

In arriving at the specifications for the areas we did a lot of industry consultation and examined what happened in the UK and in other countries in order to develop a specification which met all the safety and user needs but which was not also gold plated. They are expensive to build because one is building alongside a motorway so there are long slip lanes at the front and back and one has to provide localised waste water treatment and other facilities.

We bid for them competitively. The payments are in two parts. The first is a payment of €47 million from us to the providers after they are built. Thereafter a percentage of the revenue will revert to the State over the life of the service areas. The initial estimates suggest the revenue will be the same amount, that is, the €47 million which will be spent. That depends on usage level.

Will the SuperStop consortium come up with any money itself?

Mr. Fred Barry

It is borrowing money. The Deputy referred to the Bank of Ireland, which is the banker for SuperStop. In the first instance it will fund all the construction. We will pay it €47 million after everything is constructed and opened. After that we, on behalf of the taxpayer, will receive a percentage of the revenue, which will vary depending on the items sold.

This process follows a competitive tender. At the start there were five tenderers, which came down to two——

It seems to involve the old problem. I commend the delegation for the speed with which it developed the interurban routes but the cost of land, which is a very fundamental issue, seems to again be stymying us. Does the delegation agree with the head of the RSA that it is deplorable that we are only proceeding with three areas rather than having a decent network?

Mr. Fred Barry

We would like to be doing more. As I mentioned in my contribution, we are looking for alternative ways to proceed, such as tying the projects into a public private partnerships as we did with the N11 route. The plan for a road scheme between Cork and Limerick will go to An Bord Pleanála for approval in the next couple of months and we plan to include a service area in the application from the beginning. If it is possible to develop it through a public private partnership, that is how we will proceed. We would like to do more.

We have two other delegations.

Mr. Fred Barry

We are subject to ministerial direction.

We have been reading about something else recently. The NRA has a nice earner in the M50 toll. Some 16%, or €12 million, of the NRA's total income comes from fines from people who are not prepaid customers. A certain minority of drivers seem to be constantly suffering. It seems it is in the delegation's interest to ensure the toll-free system catches a significant minority of drivers who then end up paying through the nose for the service. I asked the delegation about a previous project. Why did the delegation not come up with a simpler system, such as a prepaid tagging system which is used for other tolls or waste management, for the people who are not proficient with computers? There are 50,000——

Mr. Fred Barry

If we wanted to generate more revenue from the M50 we would have set the tolls at a higher level. We would have had to go through a public consultation process to do that, something which we did not do. We have not set out to view penalty payments as a revenue stream. The primary purpose of the penalty is to encourage people to pay on time. We have set up many different payment methods. The operating costs of the M50 toll are quite high.

It is an astonishing portion----

Allow the witness to speak without interruption.

It is a very large portion of the NRA's revenue, about which our constituents would like to ask questions. It is a huge proportion of the NRA's total income, that is, €12 million as against €59 million.

Allow Mr. Barry to reply.

Mr. Fred Barry

As things are getting better, I hope as time goes by people will have tags, automatic video registration or will become accustomed to the fact that if one uses the facility, one has to pay for it within a certain time period and that the proportion of revenue coming from penalties will greatly decrease.

Mr. Fred Barry

I would expect that to happen.

The Dublin Port tunnel is the greatest piece of infrastructure Ireland has ever developed. It is under-utilised. I have made the point before, and constituents are telling me, that the €6 charge during non-peak hours is exorbitant. Why can the charge not be €3 on a daily basis? I understand some recent statistics have shown the number of HGVs using the tunnel has reduced dramatically. Can we increase the car usage of the tunnel to compensate the delegation? The public expect to be able to use the tunnel.

The delegation mentioned the bridge collapse in Malahide in its report. The express buses from north Dublin use the tunnel. It is a wonderful facility which has been well received by the public. The last time the delegation appeared before the committee it told me it was conducting a six-month review of pricing and would return to us on the issue. It has not done so and I again ask it to consider a €3 charge during off-peak periods.

On the M50 tolls, the delegation has a progressive firm of lawyers to collect debts. I have a constituent who runs a small fleet comprising five vehicles and pays for tolls by direct debit. He changed one vehicle and changed the tag from the old vehicle to the new one. Unfortunately, he forgot to inform the relevant person that the registration number had changed. He is now in a situation whereby he has a court appearance this month. I have written to the delegation to ask it to rectify the situation. This man is paying for the tolls through direct debit. The toll computer may or may not recognise the tag on the vehicle's windscreen. When the wrong registration is detected a demand for payment is issued. The man concerned is willing to pay the basic charge and the first fine, even thought he should not have to. Why did he receive a court summons when it is clear he has a payment record?

The delegation has completed its report on the Leinster outer orbital project. Is Meath County Council reserving land through the county development plan or some other mechanism?

I thank the NRA for its detailed responses to my questions. I am trying to cope with the algebra on the shortfall payments for the M3. The NRA suggests that there will 60,000 vehicles a day on the M3 but its current figures are between 13,000 and 17,000. I may have misinterpreted the figures. If the traffic volume were 16,000 a day what would the payment be? How much would it be if it were as low as 10,000 if, for example, drivers chose to use the old N3 rather than pay tolls on the M3 and if, following the opening of the Navan rail line, a proportion of journeys divert to that, as hopefully they will? I understand that the NRA has serviced a maximum of 90% of the debt but I suspect that it has no floor on the toll revenues, leaving a significant cost to the taxpayer.

There is a major civil engineering project under way in Limerick but the city council may not have the political will to implement traffic management. I am interested in Deputy Kennedy's question. I recall that during the planning of the Dublin Port tunnel Pat Mangan of the Department of Transport said unequivocally that commuter traffic would not use the tunnel. I asked what mechanism the Department was putting in place to ensure that and he said it would be done through a by-law. I told him that there would be enormous political pressure to open the tunnel but he said the Department could resist it. I am not sure.

One and a half hours ago the bus gate in the centre of Dublin city was lifted despite overwhelming evidence that it was good for public transport. Now cars are probably clogging up transport in the city centre. I am worried that there will not be the political will in Limerick to make the changes that will give the revenue stream to the Limerick tunnel. If traffic levels compare with those around the country what will the shortfall be for the Limerick tunnel?

Mr. Fred Barry

I apologise for not getting back to Deputy Kennedy about the €3 toll instead of €6, if I had said I would. We discussed it over the summer and left the situation unchanged. This is a matter for the board. It will be reviewed again in February and there may be a view that because traffic levels have dropped there may be an opportunity or reason to do it. We will also keep in mind Deputy Cuffe's comments that we do not want the port tunnel used to encourage car usage as against the bus usage. We were under a certain amount of pressure to reduce the toll levels for cars when the Broad Meadow viaduct was down and we refused because we wanted people to use the buses, not cars, as the alternative to trains because while the traffic could get through the tunnel it would clog up in the city centre.

With all due respect, surely pragmatism should apply. The tunnel cost the Irish taxpayer €750 million. The public wants value for its money and it is entitled to a change. I do not think that the board of the NRA should simply decide not to do it. The tunnel was built at the behest of the public through its public representatives. Why does the NRA not listen to the people? Why should it clog up Drumcondra and Gardiner Street day in day out?

Please allow the witness to respond to Deputy Cuffe's questions.

Mr. Fred Barry

I am not trying to clog up anywhere. I do not enjoy being in clogged-up traffic any more than anybody else. I appreciate that we have many responsibilities, including the responsibility to help people get around. We have a responsibility to support the Government policy, which we would support anyway, to achieve more public transport usage in the city and not to work against that in anything we do.

On the question of the court appearance for the individual, once it is in the hands of the solicitors it may be hard to stop but we will take the details from the Deputy. I appreciate that he may have already given them to us. We will intervene and sort out that matter.

The County Meath orbital route involves reserving new corridors in the county development plan which requires the support of the councillors and the officials. It is ultimately a matter for them whether it is reserved.

In response to Deputy Cuffe, all our traffic figures around the network are down and I am sure those on the M3 will be lower than they might have been. The guarantee is based on traffic through both tolls. If 13,000 vehicles a day go through both tolls that gives a total of 26,000. Even with reduced traffic we will not be in an extreme situation.

That is still less than half of the NRA's prediction of 60,000.

Mr. Fred Barry

There might be a confusion between the design capacity and the forecast for the design year which is 25 or 30 years' time. The guarantees in the opening year are not 60,000.

To what do the figures of 16,000 and 10,000 refer?

Mr. Fred Barry

Adding 10,000 and 10,000 gives 20,000. We would have to make up the difference between 20,000 and 25,000 which would be 5,200. We would have to examine the actual debt repayments.

Can Mr. Barry give me a broad-brush idea?

Mr. Fred Barry

I can work the answer out but I cannot do it in my head. I will do that and respond at different levels to the Deputy. I will give him a note.

Will he give me the figures for both of those options, 16,000 and 10,000?

Mr. Fred Barry

I will do the same for Limerick because rather than do figures off the top of my head and possibly give the wrong information I will furnish the response in writing for different traffic levels and what they would mean. We will see what happens to traffic management in Limerick. It is likely that the subvention issue might be more significant in Limerick because we did not, and do not, feel that the concessionaire company should have to carry the risk and price into that the risk of whether Limerick goes ahead with the traffic management plan. I will come up with actual figures and give them to the Deputy.

The new programme for Government includes a commitment to review the remaining 94 road projects on the NRA's books in the light of economic circumstances, falling road usage and climate change objectives. Will Mr. Barry confirm that the NRA has paused expenditure on those projects?

Mr. Fred Barry

We have paused expenditure on many of the 94 projects. We are taking some others to the end of their current phase so that if they are reactivated work on one phase is complete. For example, if, say, we were trying to move from a preferred corridor to a preferred route we would get to the preferred route point and would stop it; on others the planning is continuing. The question of whether planning will continue depends on the budget next year.

The McCarthy report suggests the possible amalgamation of the National Roads Authority with the Railway Procurement Agency. Does Mr. Barry have any corporate views on that issue?

Mr. Fred Barry

We have said publicly that most if not all of the transport agencies should be merged. Our focus is not so much——

Under the auspices of the NRA.

Mr. Fred Barry

I presume it would be under a completely new auspices. We are supportive of that suggestion but appreciate it is a decision for Government in the first instance.

Before calling Deputy Connaughton I wish to apologise to the RPA officials in the public gallery for the delay. I ask members to be as brief as possible.

I thank Mr. Barry for responding to my question concerning a very serious matter on the N6 from Ballinasloe to Galway. As he is aware there have been many demonstrations on that road. Problems arose on that stretch of road that did not arise on the other stretches from Dublin because the terrain is so low. Until recently the company involved did not come out in glowing terms in respect of its contractual obligations. I will not go into the details except to say that every landowner, including those who had nothing to do with the actual route, supported it because of the potential flooding of a large section of the N6 in the future. As we speak, consultations are taking place between the N6 company, the National Roads Authority and members of the affected communities. Everybody concerned who may have a problem with drainage on minor roads believes that when the road is open, which may be before Christmas and on which I congratulate the Mr Barry, and the toll booths begin to click, their opportunity to get what is rightly theirs attended to, fades away. Can Mr. Barry give me a guarantee on their behalf that the contractual obligations on the company will continue long into the future in order that those people will have redress to that company? While the property was acquired and the landowners were compensated, did nobody think that would be huge flooding?

Before calling Mr. Barry I support Deputy Connaughton. A month ago I had occasion to do something I have not done in 28 years as a Member of the House which was to go out on a public protest to block a road. I have rarely experienced an attitude similar to that of the Spanish company. There is no doubt there were many unnecessary difficulties which are now being responded to following on the blocking of the road and a threat that the motorway will not open until such time as the issues are addressed. It is vital that the road works required and the damage caused to people's property are addressed. If so, that road will not open and if it opens it will have to be closed. In my career I have rarely experienced such an attitude of "go to hell" as I have from this outfit. That is not good enough. I hope that will be taken into account when the National Roads Authority is again issuing contracts where this company is tendering.

Mr. Fred Barry

I am disappointed, as are all of us, that issues that were dealt with amicably and properly on so many of the other contracts around the country, clearly were not done so on this contract. I can confirm that the contractual obligations will be in place. I suspect we may have our difficulties in enforcing them but I confirm that we will be there with the public in looking to get redress wherever it is due.

There will be a financial aspect to that redress. The only way those people can be hurt is in the pocket. Is it possible to do that?

Mr. Fred Barry

Contracts are all very complicated so it is not as straightforward as saying we will take X euro away from the company. I can confirm that we will be there with yourselves and the public. We are disappointed, as are the members, that there have been such problems with the local communities.

I thank Mr. Barry.

Perhaps I will raise this issue by way of communication directly with Mr. Barry. Some concerns have been expressed to me about the legal costs which the NRA has to encounter on an ongoing basis, particularly in an EU case,which predates Mr. Barry's time with the NRA, in regard to the Dundalk-Western bypass and the continuous position of the NRA in defending what appears to be a non-defensible position in light of the advocate general's report in that regard. Mr. Barry may wish to comment on that. Perhaps he will speak about the overall legal costs which some would suggest could be better employed in providing additional kilometres of road or employing more people at this difficult time. I am conscious that it is an issue I may take up with Mr. Barry separately.

Mr. Fred Barry

I can address the second part of the Deputy's question but I will have to get clarification on the law case.

Mr. Fred Barry

The contractual procedures we use are very time-consuming, onerous and involve contractors and tenderers in a fair amount of expense in getting to us. Unfortunately, we do not have a choice between employing those procedures and getting more work done on the ground. The regulations and the rules we have to follow — the contracts will be subject to challenge if we do not and the taxpayer will end up paying all the fines and so on — are very prescriptive. They do require the measures we take. We work, as do the other public agencies, to a suite of documents given us by the Department of Finance and the subsequent procedures and all that go with it come from the requirements to tick all the boxes and make sure that everything is done and that the process is bullet proof.

While the witnesses may not have these figures to hand perhaps they would come back to us on the budget the NRA would set aside on an annual basis for legal fees.

Mr. Fred Barry

I cannot give an exact figure for legal fees but I would say it is well over €1 million.

I presume some of that amount is for the purpose of acquisitions.

Mr. Fred Barry

Sorry, I was not including land acquisitions.

Okay, that is through local authorities.

Mr. Fred Barry

We would spend well over €1 million, some of which would go on getting legal advice around, say, PPP tenders which are particularly expensive. The other big area is getting legal support in contesting claims for contractors.

I commend the NRA on its delivery of the Waterford city bypass, the opening of which I attended recently. It was delivered on time and within budget and I commend all involved.

In regard to the inter-urban routes, Mr. Barry has outlined that three service stations are going ahead. I am concerned at the lack of service stations on our inter-urban routes. Recently he informed me that due to the budgetary situation no further service stations will be put in place for the foreseeable future, bar one on the N11 which may be part of a PPP. There are obligations on road users. For example, the Irish Road Haulage Association and many road users are concerned, in the interests of road safety and long travelling times, at the lack of adequate stations for people to pull over on our major national and primary routes. I welcome the fact that three such stations are being built but I am concerned at the cost, which Deputy Broughan mentioned, which seems excessive. Am I correct in saying they will cost €47 million each?

Mr. Fred Barry

No. It is €47 million——

Mr. Fred Barry

Yes.

Mr. Fred Barry

The service areas we are building on the M1 are two-sided — one on each side of the motorway — because of the traffic levels. The ones we had planned and had put to An Bord Pleanála on some of the other routes throughout the country are on one side of the motorway only, which would be significantly less.

I thank Mr. Barry for that clarification, which is helpful. I understand also that the service stations require a land take of up to 30 acres in some cases. Would that be correct? That again appears excessive to me because we all drive regularly on our national roads. It is incumbent on the National Roads Authority to revisit that policy to see if more tailor-made service stations on our current roads can be delivered. I am aware it has consulted internationally but I would argue that Ireland, due to its small number of road traveller, would not have the same demand as, say, the international routes in France, the United Kingdom or America. For the same money I am sure many smaller scale service stations could be delivered that would meet the needs of road users for a much smaller cost. Will Mr. Barry indicate if the NRA is willing to revisit that policy in light of the current circumstances and the lack of service stations?

Mr. Fred Barry

The answer is "Yes". We have already examined it from the point of view of providing two-sided ones as against single-sided to deal with lower traffic volumes. We are willing to examine that further to determine if further adjustment should be made in the light of——

The NRA will be reviewing that policy.

Mr. Fred Barry

It will, yes.

I will try to be brief. An issue I have raised on numerous occasions here is the fact that the port tunnel has not been opened to taxis. I have raised the issue with the Dublin Transport Authority, the NRA and the Taxi Drivers Association. If I take a taxi from Dublin Airport and my destination is the south of the city, the taxi will bring me through Drumcondra and on an evening like this it could cost €27 or more. I requested the taxi driver to use the port tunnel but I was advised that I would have to pay the toll. I did not mind that. It cost me €26 and I was in the city at least half an hour earlier. We have gone from Billy to Jack on this issue and nobody appears to be taking responsibility. I cannot see any reason taxis should have to pay to use the port tunnel. It would take taxis off the main roads. It is a rip-off where tourists are concerned because most tourists use taxis to get to the city centre. I ask Mr. Barry to explain the reason the port tunnel is not open to taxis.

Regarding the Ballaghadereen bypass, those of us in the west see that the NRA has roads going everywhere — to Galway, Derry and Belfast — but there is nothing proposed for the N4 or the N5. On the Ballaghaderreen bypass, I put in a question to Mr. Barry and the NRA to ask if a two plus two carriage was proposed, which was the Rooskey-Dromad bypass that was upgraded from a single carriageway. The two plus two option has been a major success. The Charlestown bypass is a waste of time and money because there is almost two or three miles of single carriageway on which one cannot overtake due to the single white line. I cannot understand why the NRA is not considering the two plus two option. Mr. Barry might give his views on that also.

On barrier free tolling, I agree there must be a deterrent for non-payment of fines but is there a risk that the high regard most people in the country, excluding one or two people in this room, have for the NRA will be damaged? The NRA does some excellent work and I agree with the need for a deterrent but a constituent of mine is up in court for non-payment of fines totalling €1,900. He has to be taught a lesson but the NRA may get a reputation for being a sub-prime lender, so to speak. Mr. Barry may not want to deal with individual court cases but can he tell the committee what happened in the three court cases to date? Can the solicitors' company not make arrangements for payment, make deals with people or whatever? Some people might have thought they could ignore notices and get away with it. They have to learn a lesson and that can be done but imprisoning them for money they do not have is not necessarily the answer. What has happened to date with the three court cases? Mr. Barry may not be able to tell the committee whether they should go to court but the sensible approach would be to make arrangements beforehand.

The M50 is coming together. We are getting there. Many problems arose with night-time working on the M50 which is all very well until it affected residential estates like Turnapin, which feel neglected and forgotten. I am told that the NRA was to send the residents plans of the final product for Turnapin some time ago. The NRA might send those to them, or to me, outlining how it would be seen from their point of view.

There is another estate, Creston, between Ballymun and Finglas. The NRA has widened the road, has torn out the bushes and trees and put up a sound barrier which is lower than the one that was in place previously. It looks daft. One would have expected more, certainly for the few residents in the estate. There are approximately 200 apartments in the estate, many of them empty, but the excuse, when the NRA did its environmental impact statement five years ago, was that there were only two houses in the location but people saw bushes, trees, etc., being taken away and a barrier put up that is lower than the previous one. I do not want Mr. Barry to answer that question but I ask him to examine the issue.

Mr. Fred Barry

On the question of taxis using the Dublin Port tunnel, taxis are charged the same €3, €6 or €12 depending on the time of day as any other cars. I am aware different people have different views. We see the port tunnel as having being built primarily for the heavy goods vehicles. There is free access for buses above a 20 seat threshold and so on. Whether a person is driving their own car or getting somebody else to drive them, it is still a car.

It has passengers. It is not a public service.

Mr. Fred Barry

A car is a car but in terms of who owns the car, I am not sure that is material. I appreciate there are different views on it but the Deputy asked the question and I am giving him the answer.

Regarding Ballaghaderreen, as far as I recall — either of my colleagues can correct me, although they may not be familiar with the Ballaghaderreen bypass — the traffic volumes on that section of the N5 do not justify us building a dual carriageway.

Two plus two is a single carriageway modified to——

Mr. Fred Barry

I appreciate that but the thresholds are in place. I will examine the matter again and respond to the Deputy directly on it but my memory of it is that it is a single carriageway simply because of traffic volumes. I am speaking from memory and I would be better off checking that and responding to the Deputy.

On Deputy Ahern's question about the individual with the fines totalling €1,900, the solicitors are authorised to make arrangements with people. Without knowing anything about the case, if somebody wants to put their hand up and come to an arrangement they should deal with the solicitors. The solicitors have been advised to be cost effective in what they do and being cost effective does not mean bringing somebody into court if they are willing to come to some arrangement. I would suggest someone should do that.

Regarding the cases that have gone to court, I believe one case was thrown out because an issue arose as to ownership of the car. In all of the other cases the people had to pay the fines. That is the status on those cases.

On the barrier question, I do not know the position. We will get somebody to examine that.

Is the solicitors' revenue derived from fees added on as well as court appearances, which the unfortunate motorist will have to pay if they lose the case?

Mr. Hugh Creegan

If the Deputy is asking if they are on a percentage success fee the answer is "No". They are paid a fixed fee per function they do for us.

For every case referred to them they get a fixed fee.

Mr. Hugh Creegan

That is correct, yes.

I will allow a brief question from Deputy Broughan and even though the issue of the M6 has been dealt with, I will allow one brief question from Senator Healy Eames.

The NRA's budget for 2009 was cut by €300 million and it anticipates there will be further cuts in 2010. What impact will that have on direct employment in Mr. Barry's organisation and on sub-contracted employment? For example, in my constituency I am used to seeing many people working on the M50 and on the M1-M50 route.

On a related point, I received a complaint concerning the N21 Castleisland bypass this afternoon from the niece of an elderly farmer who lives just outside Castleisland. She alleges that her elderly aunt is being bullied by the NRA.

The Deputy should put that complaint in writing as we cannot go into that now.

The chief executive probably knows about the issue.

The Deputy should put that complaint in writing, as we do not want to stretch this too far.

Yes, to the organisation.

I appreciate this opportunity to contribute as I am not a member of this committee. I was following this debate on the monitor. With regard to the Ballinasloe to Galway section of the N6, which is nearing completion and due to open on 20 December, I am dealing with a number of outstanding claims for vehicular damage arising from the condition of local roads. In all the claims I processed with the N6 Spanish company, it has sent me the same response in each case, namely, that it is not taking responsibility. As the NRA is the provider that gave that company the contract, will Mr. Barry intervene to resolve these cases prior to the opening of that bypass if these cases are not satisfactorily resolved?

That question has been asked already. I will allow a brief response to it.

I thank the Chairman for that.

Mr. Fred Barry

If Deputy Broughan gives me details of the issue relating to the Castleisland route after the meeting, we will examine the matter.

With regard to employment, we are subject to a freeze on hiring and promoting staff. That has been in place for about a year and a half. Our numbers are reducing and, more significantly, the numbers employed in construction will reduce as construction projects finish.

How many people are directly employed in the organisation?

Mr. Fred Barry

Approximately 140 people are employed in the organisation. We are not a large employer but many other people work on schemes in the regional design offices, in local authorities, in consultancies and on the field in construction.

We will do what we can to help regarding the N6 claims but, ultimately, if the concessionaire will not pay local people for damage done on the roads, they will have to sue the concessionaire.

To ask local people to sue for damages amounting to €400 or €500 euro is an incredible imposition to put on them. There are a myriad of claims.

Mr. Fred Barry

As I have said previously, we are not happy with the way the local community has been dealt with on the issues that have arisen around the N6. I am not defending behaviour but it is a legal issue and if the concessionaire will not agree to deal with these on an ex gratia basis, the only solution of which I am aware, although I am open to correction on this, is for somebody to take action.

I will contact the chief executive if we do not get a satisfactory resolution of these claims within the next two weeks because the date of the road opening is imminent. As the person who pays the piper, I ask Mr. Barry to use all his influence to ensure the claims of local people, whose land and property had to be opened up to accommodate the N6, are dealt with.

Mr. Fred Barry

I will do that.

I thank Mr. Egan, Mr. Barry and Mr. Creegan from the NRA. As I have said previously, the NRA is an undoubted success story. It has delivered projects on time and within budget. The Waterford outer bypass was mentioned and the new road on the Galway to Dublin route is due to be opened on 14 December.

The Chairman might be opening it.

No, I will not be doing so.

All these achievements are to be appreciated. As a semi-State agency, it has had huge success. The new projects can be seen by everybody. Notwithstanding the complaints received, the committee would like to thank the delegates and all of those working with them for the authority's wonderful performance. I will not mention any projects in my area as it is too late to do so. The fact that the NRA and Galway County Council have now got a case in the Supreme Court against the Attorney General and the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is to be regretted. I was in Brussels yesterday and I met Commissioner Dimas, the chef de cabinet, and the officials involved. We have to try to overcome this impasse. I am not so sure that the Supreme Court and the European Court of Justice are necessarily the best way to do that, but there is a need for some communication. I will talk to Mr. Barry about that in private, as I do not want to delay the meeting in doing so now. I thank him for his presentation.

Mr. Fred Barry

I thank the Chairman and members.

We will suspend the sitting while delegates from the Railway Procurement Agency join us.

Sitting suspended at 5.55 p.m. and resumed at 6 p.m.
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