I welcome from the National Transport Authority Mr. John Fitzgerald, chairman, Mr. Gerry Murphy, chief executive, and Ms Anne Graham, director of corporate governance. I thank them for attending. I draw their attention to the fact that while members of the joint committee have absolute privilege, the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. We propose to allocate up to one hour for this part of the session. I ask members to be co-operative in asking questions. I first call on the delegation to make a short presentation.
Role and Functions: Discussion with National Transport Authority.
Mr. John Fitzgerald
I am the recently appointed chairman of the new National Transport Authority. As the Chairman indicated, Mr. Gerry Murphy is the newly appointed chief executive, while Ms Anne Graham is the newly appointed director of corporate affairs. We were appointed on 1 December last. We welcome the joint committee's early interest in our work and are pleased to have the chance to introduce ourselves to it at this early stage. I trust this will be the first of many meetings we will have with it and we welcome the beginning of this dialogue. We encourage members, many of whom I know very well for a long time, to contact the authority directly at any time if they believe we can be of assistance to them.
The new authority has been up and running for a short period, less than three months, through December and January. We have a strategic remit to provide, through other agencies, new and improved ways for people to travel. We are assembling resources and a team that will allow us to deliver this mandate to meet the expectations of the Minister for Transport and the Oireachtas.
With the permission of the Chairman, Mr. Murphy will set out briefly the authority's functions and priorities in greater detail for the information of members. We will be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
As Mr. Fitzgerald stated, I look forward to engaging with the joint committee either formally or less formally on a one-to-one basis as required. As the committee is aware, the enabling legislation for the National Transport Authority comprises two planks, the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 and the Public Transport Regulation Act 2009. Under the DTA Act, a Dublin Transport Authority for the greater Dublin area was provided for. The greater Dublin area encompasses Dublin city and the six local authority areas of Fingal, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown, South Dublin, Kildare, Meath and Wicklow. The PTR Act subsumed the responsibilities and functions of the planned Dublin Transport Authority, renamed it as the National Transport Authority and provided for a range of national functions. Parts of both Acts were commenced on 1 December 2009. The Dublin Transport Authority was established on that day, which was also the appointed day for the National Transport Authority, so it mutated into the National Transport Authority, the NTA. In summary overview, the remit of the NTA is to regulate public passenger transport services across Ireland and, specifically in the Dublin Area, to direct and integrate the delivery of public transport projects and services.
Nationally, the NTA is currently charged with entering into public service contracts with operators to provide public transport services that contain public service obligations in the general economic interest. Later this year we will assume the function of regulating competition in the provision of commercial bus passenger services across the country. This will involve issuing licences for public bus passenger services which are not subject to subvented contracts. In 2010 the NTA will provide subvention of €276 million to the three operators, that is, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Éireann, with whom it entered into public service contracts on 1 December.
The contracts have been entered into with reference to the Acts mentioned and European Union Regulation 1370/2007. There are strong commonalities across the three contracts in terms of layout and content. The key provisions in the contracts, which are completely new types of contracts, include the services to be provided; the service levels and quality of services to be provided; the payment of compensation for those services; performance and reporting obligations; the right to review, amend or alter contracts; and step-in rights for the NTA.
The contracts define the public service obligations services of the three companies as follows. In the case of Dublin Bus, the contract defines the public service obligations as the network of current Dublin Bus services, excluding airport and tour services which are classified as commercial services. In the case of Bus Éireann the public service obligation excludes Expressway and is defined as the stage carriage, Dublin commuter and other city services. In the case of Irish Rail the public service obligation is defined as the complete network of Irish Rail passenger services, excluding freight.
The specification of the public service obligations, the various performance obligations and the reporting and monitoring arrangements in the contracts reflect the evolution of the public service obligations to date and the historical information on the network. However, the Acts and contracts allow for developing more rigour in terms of the specification of the public service obligation network, the performance obligations specified and the reporting and monitoring arrangements. That is something we will have to develop in the coming years. We have published these contracts on our website , www.nationaltransport.ie, for any interested person to download and read in detail.
We are currently preparing a set of guidelines for the new national bus licensing regime which it is intended to pass to the NTA later this year. This refers to non-subvented services and commercial bus services. The Public Transport Regulation Act provides the basis for a comprehensive consultation process at the point of publishing an initial draft of the guidelines. However, in starting the drafting of the guidelines we have, at an early stage, sought the views of the parties currently involved in this transport activity, that is, the people operating in the sector. The NTA will have to determine matters in these guidelines such as the categories of licences, how applications will be processed, the validity period of licences and fees for applications and the granting of licences.
The Public Transport Regulation Act sets out a specific range of issues and subjects of which the authority is required to take account in considering applications to provide a commercial public bus passenger service. These are new considerations and were not in the 1932 Act, which the 2009 Act replaces. They include the demand or potential demand for the proposed public bus passenger service; the need to provide a well-functioning, attractive, competitive, integrated and safe public transport system of services and networks for all users; the impact a proposed public bus passenger service would have on public passenger transport services that are subject to a public transport services contract in the vicinity of the proposed route — the subvented contracts would have to come under consideration; and the contribution the proposed public bus passenger service would have in achieving an increase in the availability of public transport services for the public.
When these guidelines are finally approved and laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, we will take formal charge of the licensing regime. Until then, licences will continue to be issued by the Department of Transport. In addition, we will be charged at a future date, to be set later this year, with developing and maintaining a regulatory framework for the control and operation of taxis, hackneys and limousines. Until such time, this sector will continue to be overseen by the Commission for Taxi Regulation.
Alongside this nationwide function, the NTA has responsibility to discharge all the functions conceived for the DTA for the greater Dublin area. All the functions conceived are embodied in what we have to do. Specifically, this tasks us with developing an integrated and accessible transport system which contributes to environmental sustainability, social cohesion and economic progress. We are to provide a safe, integrated, attractive and accessible system, and we are to promote the increased use of public transport as well as cycling and walking.
The greater Dublin area comprises 10% of the land area of the State, yet accounts for 40% of the national population. It is by far the most densely populated and heavily trafficked part of Ireland and, accordingly, a very substantial portion of the NTA's workload currently relates to this region. We are currently developing an integrated long-term transport strategy for the greater Dublin area to set out the priorities for the next two decades. This work was commenced by the Dublin Transportation Office, whom we subsumed on our establishment in December. We recently consulted again with key greater Dublin area representative groups and political representatives on transport measures and options and we anticipate bringing our proposed strategy to the wider general public for consultation before finalisation later this year. We will also bring the proposed strategy to this joint committee, prior to finalisation, in order to hear its views.
Unfortunately I will have to suspend the meeting as a vote has been called in the Dáil. We will be back in about 15 minutes. I apologise to the witnesses.
Mr. Murphy may resume.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
When the strategy is complete, we will develop a medium-term, six year integrated implementation plan and a strategic traffic management plan, with a six year horizon, to start to put the strategy into place across the region. We are also responsible for ensuring implementing agencies, both local authorities and transport operators, act in line with our strategy, and for promoting accessibility, integration and modernisation of the public transport network across the greater Dublin area.
As I said earlier, we have responsibility for transport investment in the greater Dublin area. Following the December 2009 budget, we were notified by the Department of Transport that we had a capital allocation of €343.8 million for this purpose for 2010. This has been allocated as follows: to Irish Rail, for completion of the Navan rail line phase 1, for city centre resignalling, for the Kildare route project and for the DART underground; to the RPA, for completing the construction of the Luas extensions to Cherrywood and to Citywest and for ongoing preparatory work on metro and other light rail projects; and for bus and traffic management infrastructure grants, to cover bus priority measures, Dublin Bus automatic vehicle location system, Dublin City Council's real time passenger information system requirements, and traffic management measures.
Irish Rail is very active with its city centre resignalling project and phase 1 is on target for completion at the end of the year. Navan phase 1 is also planned for completion this year. On the major DART underground project, Irish Rail has recently issued a prior information tender notice for procurement of the DART underground PPP and anticipates submitting a railway order this spring.
The RPA is continuing to progress the planning and procurement of metro north. The oral hearing on the railway order application will resume next week for what is expected to be its final public session and An Bord Pleanála's determination on that application is expected by this summer. This project is being procured as a PPP and the RPA has already short-listed two bidding groups but the next stage of the procurement process, the "best and final offer" stage, must await the outcome of the statutory planning process.
The Luas extension to Cherrywood is expected to open for passenger services in September. Construction is expected to be completed by around mid-year and that will be followed by a period of detailed systems and operational testing. Work is also progressing well on the new Luas extension to Citywest and Saggart and services will be operating on that line by the middle of next year.
The RPA also plans to submit applications this year to An Bord Pleanála for railway orders in respect of metro west and the Luas cross-city link to Broombridge.
Improving the experience of public transport for users is key to promoting modal shift from cars to bus, commuter and light rail services. I have already mentioned the funding of real time passenger information and an automatic vehicle location system in Dublin. Throughout 2010 design, development and installation work will take place with the objective of unveiling real time passenger information on certain bus corridors by the end of the year and continuing with a fuller roll-out into 2011. With information available at stops, on the web and by text message, the user will experience a greatly enhanced service. It is proposed to roll out a similar scheme in Cork in late 2010 and work has commenced on this project.
The integrated ticketing project has remained within the RPA for the moment, primarily so as not to disrupt the work of the team at this stage when it is working to achieve significant developments in 2010. Integrated ticketing services cards with an annual pass product for Dublin Bus and Luas will be available by the summer with a phased roll-out of electronic purse integration towards the end of this year and into next year.
In early 2011 the NTA will take over the integrated ticketing project from the Railway Procurement Agency and will bring the project to conclusion, delivering integrated ticketing and information to the travelling public, alongside our other responsibilities for regulating fares and encouraging wider use of public transport across the GDA.
What date will integrated ticketing be available?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
In early 2011. In the meantime, the Minister for Transport has appointed me to the integrated ticketing project board, which consists of the CEOs of the public transport providers and is chaired by an independent chairperson.
The National Transport Authority will work with the planning authorities to ensure the planning of transport infrastructure, housing and commercial development is co-ordinated in order to control future urban sprawl and a rise in dependence on car-based commuting.
A range of processes are set out in the Acts covering how the NTA's views are to be considered by planning authorities when preparing regional planning guidelines nationally, and when preparing development plans and local area plans in the greater Dublin area. Conversely, the NTA is obliged to consult and consider the views of the relevant regional authorities and local authorities in preparing its plans.
I have been advised of a number of queries raised by members of the committee and I propose to address them now.
We understand that the draft scheme of a Bill to provide for the Dublin mayor was recently approved by Government and draft legislation will be published in due course. The NTA will be pleased to work under whatever arrangement emerges.
At its first meeting on 1 December 2009, the NTA requested dissolution of the DTO on that date and the Minister for Transport signed an order for that purpose on 1 December 2009. The 33 staff members of the DTO transferred, as either permanent or temporary employees depending on their particular employment contracts, to the NTA on that day.
The NTA does not currently have any functions in relation to rural transport. The Minister for Transport is responsible for determining policy and providing funding in respect of rural transport. The rural transport programme is administered by Pobal on behalf of the Minister. The NTA would be pleased to co-operate with any new policies or arrangements that the Minister may determine in the future regarding rural transport.
The Public Transport Regulation Act 2009 provides for the dissolution of the Commission for Taxi Regulation and the transfer of the staff, functions, duties and ongoing responsibilities of the commission to the authority. The Commission for Taxi Regulation will be dissolved by means of an order made by the Minister at the request of the authority. With effect from the dissolution day of the CTR, the NTA will carry out the functions vested in the commission under the Taxi Regulation Act 2003 for the purpose of achieving the objectives established for the commission in that Act. The incumbent Commissioner for Taxi Regulation will transfer to the employ of the NTA.
Pending the subsuming of the CTR into the NTA, section 76(4) of the Dublin Transport Authority Act 2008 provides that the CTR and the NTA "shall consult with each other with a view to identifying administrative efficiencies in relation to the implementation of their respective functions and shall implement such measures as they consider appropriate to achieve those efficiencies". This process has commenced and close liaison has been established between the NTA and the CTR with the objective of identifying a process for integration and the cost efficiencies that can be realised.
Our enabling legislation places transparency and consultation at our very core and we will be seeking input from the general public, from affected commercial interests and from policy-makers and political representatives, including this committee, on many occasions in the future, as we discharge our remit in creating new and improved ways for people to travel around our country.
I propose we extend the meeting to 5.20 p.m. or 5.30 p.m. at the latest, due to the votes, to allow a number of members to contribute.
In his presentation Mr. Murphy said:
Additionally, we will be charged at a future date, to be set in 2010, with developing and maintaining a regulatory framework for the control and operation of taxis, hackneys and limousines. Until such time, this sector will continue to be overseen by the Commission for Taxi Regulation.
Can Mr. Murphy be more specific as to when this will happen? It is fair to say that is an initiative that will be welcomed by this committee.
In regard to the guidelines to which he referred for the new licensing regime for public transport, buses and so on, when is it proposed to bring about that initiative? These are two critically important issues so far as this committee is concerned. The first report produced by this committee was a bus strategy for Dublin to be implemented in a two-year period. Are the witnesses aware of what that strategy contains and, if so, are they supportive of its objectives, which are to develop within a two-year timespan — one year of which is gone and little has been done — a very significant increase in bus utilisation and a broadening of the capacity of buses, changing routes and so on to enable many more to use the buses in Dublin. One proposal which we are pleased has been implemented is the opening of the bus gate in Dublin city centre, which has had a major impact, notwithstanding some of the difficulties in that respect.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
With regard to the taxi regulator, we are in active discussion with the Department of Transport and also with the taxi regulator about the date for a regulatory framework. We are in a situation where we have been trying to get on top of our brief. We have been assimilating Department of Transport staff and we cannot give a date to this committee. We are working with the Department on it. The expectation is that it will be within 12 months.
I put it to Mr. Murphy that should happen as quickly as possible. I put it to him also that we would like to have a meeting with the National Transport Authority sooner rather than later on a number of issues. I refer Mr. Murphy to recommendations we have made to the Taxi Regulator and also to an initiative in the Finance Bill concerning illegal operators in the business. We want social welfare fraud ruled out, tax fraud ruled out and those who are part-time in the industry registering the fact that they are already in full-time PAYE jobs. We would like to have an opportunity to speak with Mr. Murphy, the chairman and the director of corporate affairs sooner rather than later on those issues. We will be asking the witnesses to come back to deal with them because there is much concern in this committee about the state of the taxi industry and we want it changed.
I welcome the chairman and chief executive and the——
May I be excused for about 20 minutes and, perhaps the Vice Chairman would take the chair.
Deputy Paul Connaughton took the Chair.
I welcome the officials and wish them well in their work. I looked at their website and I am very impressed by it. The problem is that the time is truncated because of the voting.
In regard to integrated ticketing, I understand it will not become a function of the National Transport Authority until 2011. I have a document here which states that the management board of the Department of Transport on 5 November 2009 emphasised to the chief executive officer of the Railway Procurement Agency that the integrated ticketing function would be transferred to the DTA, effectively the National Transport Authority, on 1 December 2009. What is going on here? I am concerned about it because it is costing so much money. The expectation is that it will cost more than €30 million. Is there a turf way going on? Legislation was passed giving the National Transport Authority the powers we believe it needs — I am of the view it does not have enough powers outside of the GDA, an issue to which I want to return — but if the integrated ticketing project is not directly under the control of the National Transport Authority, and obviously the Department insisted that it should be, there appears to be a revolt taking place in the RPA, which I find unacceptable. Will the witnesses explain what exactly is going on in that area?
My second question relates to the issue of competition. I welcome the fact that there will be greater transparency about PSOs, buses and so on. Given that I may have missed part of the presentation, I want to clarify what proposals the NTA has for incorporating private operators into the existing or new bus routes, particularly in the GDA, with specific reference to the fact that the GDA now caters for 40% of the population and that the old Dublin Bus network has not kept pace with that growth? There are significant residential areas which have no proper bus route. Dublin Bus has refused to co-operate in any way whatsoever other than in the provision of school bus services with the provision of transport to the public whereas Bus Éireann has a different role and is much more interactive. How will the NTA drive the agenda for change in new routes and in involving private enterprise? If the bus is outside the door, regardless of its colour and badge, and it does not cost the taxpayer anything it appears to be a much more attractive project, given that people in that category are providing new buses or new routes or whatever or competing for an existing bundle of routes which are PSOs or whatever. There are many important issues here.
The third issue concerns NTA responsibility. I made this point at the legislative stage and I am aware the NTA has no control over this but the National Transport Authority is a national transport agency effectively for the GDA and not outside of that area. It has roles which do not apply to the planning process outside of the GDA. That is a significant disadvantage because in cities, major urban communities and large towns outside Dublin, there will be no requirement for a transport plan in terms of the planning application. That is a major disadvantage. I live in Drogheda. In future there must be transport plans for housing in all of east Meath right up to the Drogheda boundary but once one crosses the river that requirement is gone. The Minister said at the legislative stage that if local authorities adjoining the old DTA, the Dublin Transport Authority, applied to be included in the GDA that they could be included and, therefore, the local authority that wants to have proper transport planning can opt in to that. What is the view of the NTA on that issue? The Minister was of the opinion that could happen at the request of such a local authority but it does not make sense if there is not joined-up thinking in terms of planning outside of the GDA in places such as Cork, Limerick, Galway, Drogheda and Dundalk.
The role of the NTA does not apply to fares outside the GDA except in transport going to Dublin. One of the key issues is the fare structure of Iarnród Éireann. Does the NTA intend to review with Iarnród Éireann the fare structure in terms of distance travel per kilometre or how will it measure the fare structure? I understand the NTA is the regulator for rail fares outside of Dublin but for transport into Dublin. There appears to be a significant adverse geographic barrier when one travels on the Northern line from, say, Drogheda, Dundalk or Laytown into the Dublin area. After one passes Balbriggan the fare structure is much cheaper and one has more rights within the GDA. In other words, one can travel on all the transport network there, whereas if one travels from Drogheda to Dundalk to Laytown, that does not apply, but notwithstanding that, one is ripped off by Iarnród Éireann.
These are important issues. There also seems to be a Bus Éireann rip off. The travel distance form Dundalk to Belfast is 52 miles and the travel distance from Dundalk to Dublin is also 52 miles, yet the annual fare to travel by Bus Éireann to Belfast is €1,800 dearer than it is to travel by Bus Éireann from Dundalk to Dublin. These are the issues that must be tackled in the interests of consumers. I ask that Mr. Murphy responds to those issues.
I will call Deputy Broughan and Mr. Murphy can then reply to points raised by the two Deputies, following which I will take further questions from members.
I welcome Mr. John Fitzgerald, chairperson of the NTA, Mr. Gerry Murphy, chief executive officer, and Ms Anne Graham. I hope this introductory meeting will be the first of many fruitful meetings we will have with the NTA.
First, on the organisation, at what level is it at now? It took over the functions of the DTO. How many staff are in the organisation? How does Mr. Murphy envisage the organisation will ramp up its operations? For example, how many transport planners and transport economists has the authority and are they on board yet?
I proposed that the board of the former DTA should have been elected and that we should have an elected transport authority but we have ended up with an appointed board. Had Mr. Murphy called the advisory council together?
Second, on the Dublin situation, I might have asked Mr. Murphy the last time he appeared before the committee to comment on the proposed directly elected mayor for Dublin. It appears the new mayor will be a toy town mayor and will not have serious significant functions. He or she certainly will not have much of a budget. It appears the office will be a rehash of the old regional authority, of which I was a member. Does Mr. Murphy intend to have a separate division for Dublin within the organisation. As my colleague in Fine Gael said, the Dublin side of the authority's power is much stronger.
Has there been any discussion on the introduction of congestion charges? Is that a measure Mr. Murphy envisages would be on the authority's agenda at some stage?
Is it fair to say the NTA is replacing CIE, the mother company? CIE has effectively become defunct; it is merely a pension management organisation. The three State companies are now operating on their own and the NTA is their regulator. Is that the bottom line and the effective position?
I echo the points my colleague made about the authority's planning powers. For example, in terms of the development plans 2011-17, the authority will have to approve those seven plans for the Dublin region, but it will not have to give approval for plans for the other 25 counties. Is that the bottom line because the Government did not give it strong enough powers?
If a group of people want to establish a licence on a non-carriage route in a major part of our country, when can they apply to the authority? Will part of the criteria to be met include the quality and safety standards of the fleets? The authority will have a key role in administering the PSO routes. This committee examined the recent report of the UK Office of Fair Trading into the private bus sector, which showed that outside London a monopoly pertained in the market. Four companies completely dominated the market, and the Competition Authority, under Mr. Fingleton, was preparing to take action against them. Has Mr. Murphy read this report on the British market and, if so, will it be his bible as he proceeds?
I echo the questions of the Chairman about the taxi regulator. Effectively, Mr. Murphy is the taxi regulator, or he will be later this year.
Mr. Murphy mentioned the integrated ticketing scheme and I thank him for that information. By the time we finally get the equivalent of the Oyster cards, used in the scheme in London, how much money will we, as a nation, have spent on trying to get this integrated system up and running? I note that Summerhill garage in the Dublin Bus organisation will commence the real-time passenger information service. Does that mean that as the year progresses, at more bus stops we will see passenger information displayed to the effect that the No. 27 — my bus — or the No. 32 will arrive in five or ten minutes? The cathaoirleach of the NTA and I used to have lengthy discussions about this type of infrastructure when he was the Dublin City Council manager and the South Dublin County Council manager and I was with the Labour Party group on Dublin City Council.
Is the authority now the provider of last resort? Mr. Murphy spoke about the interconnector and metro north, these vitally needed projects that we must ensure are put in place for this city. To that I would add the proposed infrastrutural project for Cork, Galway and Limerick. I follow the debate on the Galway light proposal, the Gluas. Will the authority be the provider of these projects? In other words, if these agencies and private companies do not get their act together, will the authority deliver these projects for our country?
The Deputy has asked a good few question — fair play to him.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
On the integrated ticketing scheme raised by Deputy O'Dowd, a pragmatic approach has been taken to when it will be brought in. It had been the intention that it would come into operation in December, but when we reflected on what we had to discharge and develop in our organisation, we said it would be disruptive to the project to change the position. It was better to leave the project team in the RPA working on the scheme. Those on the team are currently working flat out.
There are other references to this issue. The reality is that the authority was to be responsible for the integrated ticketing scheme, but it is not.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Not at the moment.
No, the authority is not.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I agree.
The project is costing a fortune, money is being wasted on it and the RPA is in hiding and will not engage with the authority or the Department.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I mentioned the integrated ticketing project board, on which I sit as do the chief executive officers of the providers who were involved in bringing forward this project. The approach of the project board is completely cohesive. All the CEOs are fully behind getting this project out on the ground.
Why is the NTA not responsible for it then?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Because at the moment——
Because it will not work with the authority.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
No, it will work with us. If we needed to be responsible for it, we would ask the Department to transfer responsibility for it to us because we have powers and we act----
The Department emphasised to the CEO of the RPA in November that responsibility for the project would transfer to the NTA. That is the point. I know this is not Mr. Murphy's fault. There must be transparency about what is happening here. We all want the same result. The NTA is in charge of transport but it is not in charge of the integrated ticketing project.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Not at present; I agree.
It is a joke.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
If we saw there was any delay in that project, for which we are not responsible, we would request the Minister to transfer responsibility for it to us. At present a pragmatic approach is being taken to the project. Some 15 people are working on it full time, they are working on the software, on building up of a back office and on the awarding of contracts. It would be disruptive to that project, which has fixed timelines, to move responsibility for it across to the authority at this stage.
I am not being rude to Mr. Murphy, but I do not accept that. I believe this is a quango digging in its heels and it will not cede its power to the proper transport planning authority. There has been a total waste of money on this project so far. That is not acceptable. I will leave that point with Mr. Murphy.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
On the matter of competition, on the commercial side, the new licensing regime will place Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus and private operators on the same playing field. If anybody sees a commercial opportunity, he or she can seek a licence. The people who are the current PSO operators would not be able to prevent that, even in the Dublin area. A more interesting point is if we find significant parts of any of the urban metropolitan area are unserved, that may need a service and a subvention on that service which is not being provided. We are obliged under the Act to tender such a service for open competition for which Dublin Bus, Bus Éireann and private operators could compete.
With regard to transparency surrounding PSOs, will information in that respect be published, namely, the PSO value on each of these routes that Dublin Bus runs at present?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
The subvention we pay on PSOs is a block subvention and it has not been broken down.
Will it be broken down?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I mentioned in my speaking notes that we are aware we should be analysing the PSO in more detail.
Is Mr. Murphy doing so?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
We have started the process of gathering information on the network. More information will be gathered through the automatic vehicle location and control scheme and the passenger information and integrated ticketing schemes.
The point I want to make again is that we want change in transport. It is basically a matter of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann giving the NTA the file. The NTA is not even obliged to analyse it. Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann merely provide the figures in respect of various routes. Has the NTA requested the information to which I refer?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
We have started the process of drilling into the PSO. However, it will take some time.
There is a belief that a monopoly is being protected.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
They are protected for the period of the contracts. In the case of Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann this is five years and in that of Irish Rail it is ten years. In that period the NTA is allowed to amend and alter the contracts unilaterally against their wishes.
Is that the case if they do not perform?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Yes. At the end of the five-year term, we are obliged to seek public submissions under a national review. We are also obliged to make a report if we are of the view that we are going to offer another follow-on contract at that point.
From my perspective, the key point is——
This will be the Deputy's final question. Five other members are offering and I want to bring them in.
I appreciate that. In order to obtain true competition, there must be transparency with regard to what Dublin Bus, in particular, is doing and what it is spending. The NTA should be immediately aware of the position in that regard. If someone can provide taxpayers with a service that will cost less, then they should be allowed to do so as soon as possible.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Deputy O'Dowd also inquired about planning and transport plans. There are different mechanisms in the Act in respect of regional planning guidelines and development plans. In the case of planning guidelines, even outside the greater Dublin Area it is necessary that submissions made by the NTA be considered and addressed. In addition, local authorities must illustrate how they are dealing with such submissions in making their guidelines. The Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government can issue directions if he is satisfied that a local authority's planning guidelines do not address the NTA's submission. The same process applies in respect of development plans.
We can exercise control over fares in two areas. First, any fares changes must be agreed by us in the context of PSO contracts and, second, there is a mechanism in the Act whereby we are allowed to make an integrated fares scheme for the Dublin area. The Deputy referred to both Iarnród Éireann and Bus Éireann fares. I am not sufficiently familiar with those fares to comment. However, I will examine the position with the operators and revert to him.
I would appreciate it if Mr. Murphy could do so immediately. The key point is that the DTA has the power to examine this matter and, if there is a need for it, recommend a definitive change to the fare structure.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Yes.
We will campaign to ensure that this happens. On the issue of distance per kilometre----
This is pointless. We are more than aware of Fine Gael's views on this matter.
I want to give everyone an opportunity to contribute and five other members are offering.
I wish to make a point.
The Deputy should make just one point and conclude.
It is my job to ask questions and no one will take away my rights in that regard. Will the DTA be putting in place a policy initiative to ensure that all Iarnród Éireann fares should, as a matter of equity, be based on the distance per kilometre travelled? Will Mr. Murphy consider that issue when examining the company's fare structure?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I do not know what will be the parameters. If, however, we are examining the fare structure, we will consider that issue.
Deputy Broughan inquired about our organisation ramping up its activities. There were 33 members of staff at the DTO and they have all moved to the DTA. Sanction was received from the Department of Finance in respect of myself and four directors. Ms Graham has joined as one of those directors and two other positions have been advertised. We are waiting to advertise the final position. In general, however, we must operate within existing resources. A further ten staff have already joined the organisation from the Department of Transport. Another 16 staff are due to come from that Department in the summer. They will be responsible for the bus licensing function. When the integrated ticketing project comes on stream next year, some five to seven staff will join the organisation.
If I could ask the famous "George Lee question", how many transport planners are there at present?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I cannot provide an answer in that regard. However, the DTO had a strong cohort of planners. The staff of that organisation was heavily weighted on the professional side. There must be 15 or 20 of those and, with our backgrounds, Ms Graham and I add to that number. We are also recruiting. There is a significant professional cohort in place.
The Deputy also referred to the advisory council. It is a function of the Minister to appoint that council. A number of people have written to us asking when the council will be appointed and we passed their letters on to the Minister.
I do not know if I am in a position to comment to any great degree on the issue of a directly-elected mayor for Dublin. However, we will work with——
Originally, the system was going to be extremely simple, that is, the mayor was going to have Mr. Fitzgerald's job. However, it has been decided, on foot of the recession, cutbacks, etc., to scrap that plan. I presume the DTA has no idea with regard to what will be the final outcome.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
No, we do not.
Mr. John Fitzgerald
The change was made because it became a national organisation. Reports published today indicate that work is being done at present on the linkages between the mayor's role and the National Transport Authority. We must wait to see what emerges from that. Obviously, we will work with whatever system emerges.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
The DTA does not have a statutory remit in respect of congestion charges. We do have such a remit in respect of demand management but this excludes congestion charging that would control demand. In our consultation on a strategy, congestion charging was raised and people's views were equally weighted in favour and against.
The DTA is the regulator of the three companies. However, we are going to be a slim organisation and we will be working through those companies. They deliver services, as do private operators. The RPA and Irish Rail are also delivering as major infrastructure providers, funding through us and working, in project management terms, with them. They have major roles to play in the context of the provision of public transport in the greater Dublin area.
There is no process for us to approve development plans. There is a process for us to make strong submissions, if we so desire. There is also a process whereby county managers must address those submissions. Finally, there is a third process whereby the Minister can issue directions if the plans that are made are not in conformity with the transport strategy.
I cannot answer the questions on licensing. We are only beginning to examine that process and the guidelines——
However, it is set out in the two Acts.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
The legislation contains a series of criteria.
On the PSO routes and the UK Office of Fair Trade, I am not sufficiently familiar with the document to which——
Mr. Murphy should read it.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I will do so.
The document to which I refer shows that some of the aspirations of my colleagues in Fine Gael have led to less efficient and effective services being provided. We must avoid the Thatcherite mistakes made in Britain.
In such circumstances, Fianna Fáil should be kept in government.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Deputy Broughan also referred to the taxi regulator.
Do not let us have Thatcherism and the Labour Party in government together.
Am I correct in stating that the current regulator will be the final person to hold that position?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
That is correct. On real-time passenger information, the Deputy referred to Summerhill depot. The latter is being fitted out in this regard and also with an integrated ticketing kit. However, this will not be unveiled in the near future because there is a need to move across seven depots. The contract is being signed for the back office system——
It is anticipated, however, that real-time passenger information will be provided at bus stops. This is the old dream which has been hanging around for 25 years.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
The assessment board, of which Ms Graham is a member, made a decision on that matter earlier today. The contract will allow for 500 bus stops to be equipped to provide real-time passenger information.
Will the equipment involved be vandal-proof?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
The working budget for the integrated ticketing project — about which Deputy O'Dowd also inquired — is €55 million. Everyone is operating within that budget.
When the system is finally introduced, is it anticipated that — following all the messing involving the Comptroller and Auditor General's reports — the DTA will assume responsibility for it and ensure that it operates properly?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Yes. The plan is that by February or March 2011 the full roll-out will have occurred across the various operators. It is then envisaged that we will assume responsibility for and become the operator of the entire system.
The Act allows for intervention in the greater Dublin area in the provision of public transport infrastructure. However, that is as a matter of last resort. It is similar to the way the National Roads Authority works through local authorities. We are obliged to work through Iarnród Éireann and——
In the context of the metro project, the DTA is beginning, like members, to be of the opinion that in 2016 — on the 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising — the entire city will be in a shambles. Is the authority in a position to state that the city must be restored and the metro and the interconnector put in place by that date? Is it in a position to inform the RPA and other agencies that they must get their act together and deliver?
Mr. Gerry Murphy
We can do that with regard to the RPA. It is a different relationship, for example, if the local authorities are affected by it. We fund the RPA and we have active project management with it on that project every two weeks.
I welcome the delegation. I know Mr. Fitzgerald for a number of years as I worked with him on Dublin City Council and he has always been very efficient, personable and upfront with everybody and I wish him well in his new role. I will make some points as many of the questions have been asked, in particular by Deputy Broughan. The Chairman raised an issue about the taxi business which, at the moment, is in chaos. We all know the problems. There are illegal drivers and the Garda is stopping taxis. I have spoken to gardaí and many of them do not know what they are looking for. There is a problem with bogus roof signs and so on.
The taxi regulator will be subsumed into the National Transport Authority. Will the regulator have a similar role as previously or will she be under the umbrella of the authority? She was not very accommodating of many of the good suggestions made by this committee. For example, it is impossible to make a living in the taxi business because of the over-supply of taxis and some of them are in very bad condition. I know that some people, in particular, females, are afraid to use taxis because they do not know who is driving them and they are fearful. I ask for the delegates' views on this issue.
With regard to the new licensing regime for buses, buses were running from Galway to Dublin at a fare of €1. Illegal operators were fined €50 or €60. In the proposed tendering process for new licences, people will tender for a profitable route and many routes are non-profitable. In other European countries the rule is that an operator must tender for two routes, a profitable and a social route. I ask for the views of the delegation on this. It could be the case that nobody would tender for the non-profitable route and without proper regulation, multinational companies could come in and take over everything.
I acknowledge that every new organisation has teething problems. What role will be played by the Lord Mayor? I listened to Ken Livingstone a couple of weeks ago and he had responsibility for everything that moved within London city. He also had a budget and he could generate revenue by imposing congestion charges, as referred to by Deputy Broughan. If a suggestion was made to the authority about the use of water taxis to connect with the car ferries in the ports, what role could the authority play? If I suggested the re-opening of the railway line from Dublin to Navan——
Part of it has been opened.
I know part of the line is open but I am talking about continuing it because everything is in place. I ask for the views of the delegation on those points.
I welcome the delegation, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. Murphy and Ms Graham. Reference was made in the submission to a payment of €276 million in subventions to Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and Bus Éireann in 2010. Could any other bus operators seek subvention from the authority? Have any operators been granted a subvention? The same old monopolies will continue to operate — the three major players — and the rest will just be brushed aside. There will be an odd route left here and there that will be half viable and people might try to operate them. If an operator devises a route that is profitable and applies to the authority for a licence, will they be required to compete against Bus Éireann or Dublin Bus for that route even though those companies no longer operate on it? These groups can use the subvention to hammer any opposition, as has been done down the years. We are all aware of this.
I have a question about the rail network. There is a move to organise a link from Sligo to Derry to ensure an all-Ireland rail system. Has the authority undertaken a feasibility study for this link? It is the last portion remaining of a national railway circuit. Is this within the remit of the authority?
I welcome the delegation. I have two questions. I refer to the time taken to evaluate and decide upon private bus licences. A complaint frequently levelled at the Department of Transport is the length of time it takes for these licence applications to be considered and for a decision to be made. It has been alleged this creates a bias against these companies getting tenders and being able to do their job. I ask the delegation for a commitment the authority will be able to review the applications and make decisions quicker than has been the case in the past, given that licensing will be one of the main functions of the authority.
The name of the organisation is the National Transport Authority. I put it to the delegation that the authority is not a national transport authority but rather a Dublin transport authority with some additional functions. The reason I say this is that the authority does not have responsibility for the rural transport scheme. The RPA will be delivering much of the infrastructure. The legal relationship of the authority with the RPA is substantially weaker than it is with Iarnród Éireann or Dublin Bus. I ask for the comments of the delegation and whether it envisages any change taking place.
I will be brief as many of the questions have been asked. I concur with the remarks about the taxi regulator. I welcome the delegation. Mr. Fitzgerald is well positioned with his knowledge of Dublin to get Dublin transport moving as soon as possible. When will the Commission for Taxi Regulation be decommissioned? I believe it may be sometime this year. The delegation in its submission said there will be public consultation about express bus services. I will be parochial when speaking about north Dublin. The 41X service from Swords uses the Dublin Port tunnel in the mornings but is not licensed to use the tunnel in the reverse journey home. This is a ridiculous situation. Equally, a private bus operator, Swords Express, has submitted an application for the extended service. I ask the authority to expedite those issues with the Department of Transport. There is nothing more frustrating for the public. Politicians and the NTA are asking people to leave the car at home and use public transport and yet we are missing the simple little things that would facilitate people getting out of their cars. It takes three hours to get from the city out to Swords in north Dublin and this does not encourage people to leave the car at home. I suggest to the authority to speed up that consultation and I ask the delegation to use its influence with the current authorities to make a decision one way or the other. Leaving it in abeyance is ridiculous.
I ask for a breakdown between the three bodies of the subvention of €276 million. Reference was made to metro north. I hope that when we bring the delegation back here next year, it will be incorporating a report that the metro has been given the go-ahead and that a budget will be in place.
I also welcome the delegation. The Dublin Port tunnel has been a chestnut of mine over the years. I find it difficult to accept that this is an infrastructure costing up to €1 billion paid for by the Government and yet taxis are being charged to use the port tunnel. I appreciate that much has been done in recent years and buses are beginning to be allowed use the port tunnel and also that charges have been reduced. However, it is hard to believe that in rush hour one cannot use the port tunnel.
If I am travelling to Dublin Airport and I take a taxi, the taxi driver will not go through the port tunnel due to the extra charge. At the time it cost of the order of €27, by the time the taxi driver used the port tunnel which cost €12, but it has since been reduced. If using the tunnel one was in the city centre in about ten or 15 minutes. Most of the taxis drive through Dorset Street. The port tunnel charge is anti-tourist. Any tourist travelling to the southside who uses the port tunnel has to pay an extra charge. This issue needs to be addressed as taxis should not have to pay the port tunnel charge. Finally——
I advise the Deputy not to delay as there is a vote in the Dáil.
We could bring down the Government.
Perhaps Deputy Feighan could finish.
What are the views of the NTA on the western rail corridor and the extension from Sligo to Donegal and Donegal to Derry? The rural transport scheme provides a sterling service. I do not think people realise its value but if we really care about rural transport it should be part of the NTA brief.
Unfortunately, there is a vote in the Dáil. I suggest Mr. Murphy reply in writing to the queries raised. That means the meeting can suspend. I thank the representatives for appearing before the committee and I wish them well.
I think we should allow Mr. Murphy to respond after the vote. We could give him five minutes. It is unfair to ask him to go away and begin to do written replies to the questions that have been raised.
That is reasonable enough. If that is in order, I have no problem with it. We will return in a few minutes.
I suggest that no other questions be put to the representatives.
No other questions will be asked.
We will hand over to Mr. Murphy now to respond to the questions.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
Senator Brady asked what role the tax regulator would have. The regulatory role will pass to the National Transport Authority, which is represented by the board. The Act allows that the regulatory functions as determined by the authority be discharged by the current Commissioner for Taxi Regulation. That is the legal arrangement. The Senator also asked about the licensing regime for buses. Where there are profitable routes, people will not have to tender for them. They will just seek a licence for those routes because there is no subvention involved. Tendering will only occur where we deem subvention will be needed for the route. The different parties will have to tender for that subvention. We do not have a role to play with regard to water taxis.
Senator Ellis asked about the subvention of €276 million and asked whether other bus operators, besides the three public transport providers got subventions. The answer to that is "No". He also asked about the rail network. That is outside our remit. We are only responsible for infrastructure within the greater Dublin area. Outside the greater Dublin area infrastructure is funded directly by the Department of Transport which engages directly with Irish Rail. The Senator also asked whether operators could apply for a licence where CIE has withdrawn a service. If somebody determined that he or she could operate a route profitably and did not need a subvention, he or she could seek a licence if he or she saw a commercial opportunity in that.
Senator Donohoe asked about the speed at which private bus licences are being evaluated and whether we would make a commitment to review applications and make the process quicker. I have not been involved in that area and do not know the detail of how the evaluations are carried out. My commitment would be that we will make it as good a process as possible when we take over this function. With regard to the name of the organisation, the Senator is correct that there are different functions and the grain of the organisation is definitely much deeper in the greater Dublin area than it is nationally. However, there are significant national functions in these transport contracts. Under the Act, the RPA is designated to carry out the functions with regard to light rail and metro but the funding comes through us, the NTA and we have to be satisfied the RPA is discharging the functions appropriately in order to receive the funding.
Deputy Kennedy asked about the taxi regulator. As I have answered previously, we anticipate within 12 months or sooner and we are working towards that time line. In answer to his question about the 41X route and Swords express, I am not involved. I have heard about this and I will convey his views to the Department as it is still handling that issue until that function transfers——
I wish they were handling it, that is my point.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
I will convey that view to the Department. Deputy Kennedy asked about the split in the subvention of the €276 million. A total of €45 million goes to Bus Éireann, €155 million to Iarnród Éireann and €76 million to Dublin Bus. Deputy Feighan asked about charges for the port tunnel. The NTA does not have a role. The only NTA role with regard to toll schemes in the greater Dublin area is if the National Roads Authority was making a new toll scheme or was statutorily amending its toll scheme. In that situation, the NTA would have to approve it.
We were asked for our views on the western rail corridor. The NTA does not have a remit regarding that infrastructural element and neither has it a role with regard to rural transport. However, we see the value of integration and we understand a pilot scheme is being carried out in the north-east area, in County Louth, studying the role played by school transport, rural transport, other providers and also the transport provided by the HSE. This pilot study is to look at integration of the systems with a view to better value for money.
I thank the delegation, Mr. Fitzgerald, Mr. Murphy and Ms Graham, for the presentation. The committee looks forward to a return visit by the delegation at some stage to discuss further some specific items, in particular, buses and taxis, along with a number of other issues. I propose another meeting some time in June or thereabouts before the summer recess.
Mr. Gerry Murphy
If any member of the committee wishes to make contact with us, we would be very happy to meet them.