JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT AND COMMUNICATIONS díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 4 Jul 2012

Taxi Regulation Review: Discussion with Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann

Vice Chairman

Representatives of Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann are with us to outline their concerns about the taxi regulation review report which was launched earlier this year by the Minister of State with responsibility for public transport, Deputy Alan Kelly. I welcome Mr. David McGuinness and Mr. Alan Brennan.

By virtue of section 17(2)(l) of the Defamation Act 2009, witnesses are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. However, if they are directed by it to cease giving evidence on a particular matter and continue to so do, they are entitled thereafter only to qualified privilege in respect of their evidence. They are directed that only evidence connected with the subject matter of these proceedings is to be given and asked to respect the parliamentary practice to the effect that, where possible, they should not criticise or make charges against a person, persons or an entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her or it identifiable. The opening statements will be published on the committee’s website after the meeting.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I now call on Mr. McGuinness to make his opening statement.

Mr. David McGuinness

I thank the Vice Chairman for giving me the opportunity to address the joint committee. Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann is a voluntary organisation representing full-time taxi drivers. It was formed in 2010 and given a mandate for a legal challenge against the introduction at the time of the nine year rule. The reason for the legal challenge is the lack of a fair consultation and decision making process within the industry. While we welcome the announcement of the industry review, we are very disappointed at the lack of input allowed by full-time single licence holders. Although welcoming some of the recommendations made in the report, particularly on data matching which we have requested for many years, as well as the proposals for stricter enforcement of the regulations to stamp out illegal activity, full-time taxi drivers believe the review failed to tackle key issues which we have outlined in our written submission. Since the publication of the review, Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann has sought dialogue on several occasions with both the National Transport Authority and the Department of Transport, but all to no avail. We hope that with the help of the committee some of the issues can be readdressed. We thank the Vice Chairman and members for giving us the opportunity to express our concerns.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank Mr. McGuinness and Mr. Brennan for coming on behalf of Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann. We have not debated the taxi regulation review document and I am looking forward to doing so. I have gone through everything that has been said and it seems many issues arise, one of which is that the Minister and the National Transport Authority are refusing to meet representatives of Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann. I have always found this very difficult to understand, as I do not see any harm in people meeting.

The big issues for the taxi industry are those of oversupply and a requirement that there only be full-time drivers. In principle, I agree with the idea that there should only be full-time drivers. Stamp No. 2 entry visa holders are often students who come into the country and operate taxis. Do we have any evidence of how and why this is happening? The submission also mentions granting permanent Irish residency to PSV licence holders. Would that break EU rules? Would it cause us a problem?

The Minister has stated the nine year rule will be backdated to 2009. I have generally been opposed to the rule. Having six monthly checks are adding huge costs. I do not know why it should be six monthly rather than yearly checks. Is that the opinion of the delegates also? Will they explain the position on the transfer of the licence for single licence holders? Why are they treated differently from multiple licence holders?

Vice Chairman

Perhaps the delegates might answer those questions first, after which I will call Deputies Timmy Dooley and Colm Keaveney.

Mr. David McGuinness

According to the review body document, oversupply within the industry is one of the main bones of contention. Each weekend full-time taxi drivers are faced with competition on the streets of our cities and towns from people who have already earned a week's wages. Full-time taxi drivers are, therefore, losing out in terms of income. The Indecon report states that the industry is between 13% and 23% oversupplied but nowhere in the document is this issue addressed. The only way we see the Minister or the review body trying to tackle this matter is by forcing full-time taxi drivers out of the industry. I refer here to the introduction of the nine-year rule. If there was an industry whereby full-time taxi drivers earned reasonable incomes on foot of the hours they work, our organisation - which represents over 1,800 full-time taxi drivers - would have no difficulty negotiating with the NTA or anyone else in respect of vehicle standards, vehicle age, etc.

At present there is limited availability of credit from credit unions and banking institutions and people whose sole income comes from full-time taxi driving have no access to credit at all. Full-time taxi drivers are rated as being high risk by all banking and financial institutions. As a result, full-time taxi drivers are faced with a situation whereby they can either go on the dole - and thereby cost the State money - or enter the rental market. That market works in such a way that one could be obliged to pay €150 to €200 per week to rent a taxi car. The latter is more expensive than would be the case if one were replacing one's vehicle. As already stated, however, the lack of access to credit means people cannot replace their vehicles. Effectively, this means that people must take one of the two options I mentioned. If the issue with oversupply were tackled, many of the problems within the industry would be resolved.

On the stamp 2 visa issue, we have received complaints regarding the increasing number of foreign students operating taxis at weekends in particular. At a recent meeting in Dublin Castle, the superintendent who has responsibility for traffic informed us that under legislation he is prohibited from restricting entry to the market for anyone who comes into the jurisdiction as long as he or she is in possession of a number of licences. It was his opinion that the only way we could prohibit access on the part of foreign students to the market would be through the introduction of an amendment to the Immigration Act.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

In its document, Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann states that PSV licences should only be available to permanent Irish residents. Under EU rules-----

Mr. David McGuinness

We do not believe that is the point. We have had a junior counsel investigate this matter. In other jurisdictions there is a restriction whereby people are obliged to be resident for a certain number of years before they can apply for PSV licences. Why should Ireland be any different, particularly as France, Denmark or Spain are not viewed as breaking EU laws in this regard? How is it that Ireland seems to be the only country where what I am describing is allowed to happen? There is also a health and safety issue involved. There should be a much higher standard required for entry into the industry. If people are allowed to enter and leave the jurisdiction willy-nilly, public safety must become an issue.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The positions of single licence plate holders and multiple licence plate holders are different in the context of the transfer of licences. Will Mr. McGuinness outline the position in this regard?

Mr. David McGuinness

We believe that single licence plate holders should be treated differently from those who hold multiple plates. There is evidence which shows that many of the multiple licence plate holders are transferring their licences into company names. As a result, the licences can be sold as assets of the company. Single licence holders cannot afford to do this. The non-transferability issue was raised by the review body in the context of restricting the hoarding of licences. However, it will not affect the people at whom the measure was aimed. It is like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. There are single licence holders who operate their taxis in conjunction with their sons, daughters or wives. In the awful event of anything happening to such single licence holders, their families would be put out of work as well.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I welcome the representatives from Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann and I thank them for continually providing information in respect of the issue of single taxi licence holders. They are doing an exceptionally good job in a difficult environment. The review body established by the Minister failed to give adequate recognition of the concerns of single taxi licence holders. I speak to such people every day and they do not feel their concerns were represented by the review body. The concerns of Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann have also not been taken into account. It is important, therefore, that our guests are present in order that they might vent in respect of the various concerns and issues relating to single taxi licence holders. This problem is not confined to the city of Dublin; it affects single taxi licence holders throughout the country. As a result of the way deregulation was pursued and in the aftermath of a boom in the economy, we find ourselves in a position where there are far too many taxis. The Indecon report indicates that at times there can be an oversupply of taxis of over 20% in some areas. There is no way single taxi licence holders can make a decent living on a weekly basis in such circumstances. I hoped the review body would seek to put in place the necessary measures to address this problem but I do not believe it has done so. This is because the concerns of those who comprise the grassroots of the taxi industry have not been addressed.

Since this is such an important issue, I suggest that the committee consider preparing a further report and carrying out additional work in respect of it. To that end, I propose that representatives from the NTA and the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport be brought before the committee in order that we might tease out the issues that have been raised on an ongoing basis by the members of Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann. I will not discuss those issues any further now because Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann has already covered them in its submission. However, I will mention the nine-year rule relating to vehicle standards - it is hugely difficult for taxi drivers to conform with this - and the oversupply of taxis. Deputy Ellis referred to the non-transferability issue and there is the matter of vetting procedures.

In the context of how we are going to address this matter as we move forward, there must be a process which involves negotiation between our guests' organisation, the NTA, the Minister and the Department. If the committee could do whatever is in its power to ensure that Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann, which represents the grassroots of the taxi industry, is recognised, then it will have done a good day's work. We cannot direct the Department or the NTA but if we could ensure they become involved in meaningful negotiations with Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann, the entire industry will then have had an opportunity to put its case to those who will ultimately set the standards and make the decisions.

I do not have any questions to ask because I have always found our guests to be extremely helpful in the context of the information they provide. They have set out in very clear terms the issues that need to be addressed.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Like other members, I welcome our guests and thank them for their submission. I wish to make a number of observations on some of the points made. There are a huge array of representative organisations in this industry. Some of the latter represent the vast majority of individual licence holders, namely, those who are self-employed. Is Mr. McGuinness in a position to say how many such organisations there are? I am not sure of the context in what Deputy Timmy Dooley stated about negotiations. Was a formal submission made to the review group? Does Mr. McGuinness suggest his group has been unfairly treated vis-à-vis other organisations which have taken a similar approach in the context of the terms of reference for the review? A range of organisations in the industry represent the concerns of self-employed single licence holders. Is Mr. McGuinness suggesting meetings took place with other similar groups but not with his? Did Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann offer a submission to the review in the same way as comparable organisations representing people involved in the industry did? I strongly note the concerns expressed about the self-employed person. Significant benefits come with this which others in the economy do not enjoy. There is no doubt that the industry is suffering in the current challenging economic circumstances.

I fail to understand how a group of representative bodies cannot work collectively in the context of the credit issue. Aer Lingus workers have a credit union, as does the Garda Síochána. I sense that there are divergent views, given the number of representative bodies with a clear distance between each other in the context of coming together to formulate a collective approach. If such divergent views were expressed in the submissions made to the review body, taxi drivers would never get beyond the impasse of tackling strategic issues on credit. The group should reflect with the other representative bodies in order to find a resolution, in particular on the nine year rule, in order that taxi drivers would be given the fire power to provide a high level of public service with the highest level of accessible facilities. It is clear that the group is finding that difficult, first, in the context of the economy, and, second, given the difficulty in accessing credit. Some reflection might be required among the representative bodies in the industry on how they can collectively access credit for the industry in that respect.

I would be interested in an elaboration on the PSV licence system in other jurisdictions. I would be alarmed if the same dialogue was to take place in a comparable organisation in another jurisdiction and there was a reflection on Irish applicants applying for a PSV licence to drive a black taxi in a metropolitan location in the United Kingdom. It would be a concern if a comparable discussion was to take place in Parliament and a representative organisation was to suggest Irish people were not welcome in a jurisdiction.

Mr. David McGuinness

It is not that they are not welcome. There are strict limitations on who enters the industry. To return to the point about-----

Deputy Colm Keaveney

How difficult would it be to get a licence in London, for example, with a PSV licence from this jurisdiction?

Mr. David McGuinness

The licensing authority in Great Britain would have no interest in a PSV licence from this jurisdiction. The granting of a licence there is more strictly controlled. As the Deputy is probably aware, it can take up to three or four years working as a courier or mini-cab driver before one even has the knowledge to sit the entry level tests in London. I am not aware of the restrictions placed on citizens from outside or within the European Union, but in other jurisdictions one must be resident in the country in order that the vetting procedure will work more easily, one can build a history and the relevant authorities in the country will have a record of one being there. In other jurisdictions, even if one has lived outside the state in which one applies for a licence, one must bring references from the police authorities in the country in which one has resided for more than X number of weeks or months.

I wish to return to the many organisations that represent taxi drivers. Ours was formed because of the disparity within all the other groups, many of which are undemocratic. People do not have the right to vote to elect those who head up the organisations. As some of the other representative bodies cater for multi-licence plate holders, they do not represent our interests. At the beginning of the review process when we saw the make-up of the review body, we drew up a petition which almost 2,000 taxi drivers signed in protest. As far as we were concerned, the old taxi advisory council was rehashed to make a review body. It would be like the same people who broke the banking sector being asked to fix it. That is what happened in our industry. Since the review body published its report, the Minister's new taxi advisory council is made up of the same people who were on the old taxi advisory council and the review body. Our organisation has grown massively in number in the past two years since its inception. The reason it has grown is we are all full-time taxi drivers; none of us is a multi-licence plate holder and we are there to represent people like ourselves. We have written to the other representative bodies on a number of occasions to try to formulate a unified response to Government policy on the taxi industry and have not even received a response from them. It is as if they are saying to us, "What we have, we hold." That is what we are trying to break down.

Deputy Seán Kenny

I welcome the delegates and thank them for their submission. Some of the questions I wished to ask have been asked by Deputy Colm Keaveney and others. Will Mr. McGuinness put a figure on the number of people he represents as a percentage of the number working in the taxi industry as a whole?

Mr. McGuinness has referred to the difficulties in working with the other taxi representative groups. It would be better if there was a unified approach and they could all work together. Some of the other groups have been in touch with us previously. I used to be a member of the transport policy committee of Dublin City Council and we had meetings with some of the other groups. SIPTU also represented taxi drivers. I do not know if that is still the case, but it did at one stage. It would be better if there was a unified approach to dealing with the matter in conjunction with the other groups.

I agree with the point made by the single taxi plate owners that the plate should be transferred to the widow or family of a taxi driver who has passed on. The Minister should consider the issue. Many of those who got involved in the taxi business were made redundant between ten and 30 years ago and bought a plate with their redundancy money. It was like getting a job. That was their only asset and the plate was their pension. It should be inherited in the same way as any other business. I support Mr. McGuinness on the point and hope the Minister will take it into account.

Deputy Noel Harrington

I welcome the representatives of Tiománaí Tacsaí na hÉireann. They must forgive me as I have just become a member of the committee.

We are all familiar with the individual concerns of taxi drivers. As a rural Deputy, I use taxis on almost a daily basis in Dublin and taxi drivers are not shy in giving their opinions.

It is clear that with so many involved in the taxi industry there will never be a cohesive, unified industry. This would be practically impossible to achieve, in particular in a deregulated industry in which there was more or less a free-for-all. Both the industry and the Government are trying to deal with the ramifications of what has happened. I am not as familiar with the issues affecting the taxi industry as other members. Would the witnesses indicate the number of licensed plate holders they represent?

It is often the case that opposing views are expressed from within the agriculture or fishing industries or any industry in which a large number of people work but up to 90% of those views are common. The disagreement is often on a small number of issues among the licence holders. How many people do the witnesses represent? They may not represent all the single plate holders but they might also give us an idea of the number of multiples about which they spoke.

This issue will have to be addressed and there will be pain involved in doing that. That has happened in almost every industry where this issue has arisen, be it in agriculture, fishing or whatever. When a line is drawn and a resolution reached there will be people on one side and people on the other side and that must be dealt with, but we should try to accommodate as much as possible the views expressed but also those of the public. We have a public remit and that must be addressed. I ask the witnesses for the views of their association and also their views on the review group in terms of those not adequately represented in the group.

Mr. David McGuinness

In total we have approximately 1,800 members who are mainly Dublin based. We have alliances with the Dundalk Taxi Association and a group of lads in Drogheda with whom we have worked closely in recent months. We also have members in Limerick. We do not know the specific numbers or percentages because we do not know the figures of the other groups, but we will open our membership lists to anybody who wants to compare them.

On the issue of working with the other groups, we already work with the other groups at Dublin Airport in the Dublin Airport Authority. At most of the meetings a representative of each group will formulate a policy and then attend the meetings with the DAA. There is co-operation among the different groups.

Unfortunately, in terms of the review body the majority of full-time taxi drivers believed that we were not represented and that our opinions were not taken on board within the review because there was not a single licence holder on the review body. The review body had eight meetings and a person was brought in for the sixth meeting but that seemed to be an exercise in appeasing full-time taxi drivers.

The Deputy said the line has to be cut off at some point. In our submission to the review body we encouraged the Minister to set up some type of exit strategy from the industry for people who wanted to leave it. We have asked that people who want to exit the industry should be given access to the State mechanisms for retraining, as happens in major companies. If a company like Dell or any of the major companies closes down a process is put in place for people exiting those industries, or the fishing and farming industries, whereby they are retrained to ensure they do not become a burden on the State. We ask in our submission that the Minister, with encouragement from the committee, would examine the Springboard programme where people who are unemployed for a certain amount of time can apply to these colleges for places. We ask that people who want to exit the taxi industry should not have to go through the process of waiting X number of months or a year or two before they can enter these programmes. We believe they should be allowed enter them when they finish in the industry and on completion of a certificate, a degree or if they gain other employment the licence should have to be handed back to the National Transport Authority, NTA. We know the industry will not sustain the number of people who are employed in it currently but we cannot simply tell the people in an industry that is their lot and they must take what they want out of it. We must allow people who want to exit the industry an opportunity for the future.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I want to come back on a number of issues. At the time we made the argument to the Minister of State, Deputy Kelly, about the single taxi drivers not being represented. I believe the two representatives did not represent the single taxi drivers at the time, but he rejected that argument.

There are approximately 40 recommendations in the taxi review which is coming up and if possible I would like the representatives to go through those individually and express opinions on them, and perhaps forward them to the committee, myself or the different groups. That would be a good exercise in how we will deal with the review group when it comes up for discussion.

I have some other questions. Mention was made of the independent arbitrator. That seems to be a reasonable suggestion. Also, in terms of access to the Ombudsman, the people the witnesses represent are prohibited from accessing the Ombudsman in terms of arbitrating on issues. I would like to hear some ideas on that and I ask them to elaborate on it.

Also, we assume penalty points will be added as a result of some of the rules being brought in. The penalty points debate is coming up, and there will be many changes. There is a possibility that penalty points will be increased. There will be major changes and new offences introduced in terms of penalty points. Do the witnesses have any thoughts on some of the ideas being put forward by the taxi review group on penalty points?

Mr. David McGuinness

We have already published a document within the industry questioning some of the recommendations. We are happy to forward that to the committee and hope that the committee will raise some of those issues with the Minister.

On the lack of an appeals process, before the last general election we canvassed all of the major political parties putting forward candidates in the election and scrutinised their policy documents on the taxi industry. One of the major benefits to the industry of the Labour Party policy document was that the prohibition on the taxi industry having access to the Ombudsman was a positive for taxi drivers and therefore we actively encouraged people to vote for these political parties but an appeals process is not even mentioned in the review document. There is an appeals process of sorts where someone can appeal to the NTA about a decision taken by it but that process has failed miserably in that someone is appealing a decision taken by an organisation. The prohibition on access to the Ombudsman is vital for our industry as is the setting up of an independent arbitrator on contentious decisions taken by the NTA and the Department of Transport.

On the penalty points question, according to the recommendation in the legislation that will go through the Dáil taxi drivers' licences can be suspended under the special small public service vehicles, SPSV, penalty points system. We believe the people who will be most affected by that are single licence holders because the more time one spends on the road and the more time one spends queuing up, the more likely one is to accumulate these penalty points. I believe some of these points will be given if someone is queuing illegally or whatever and there is a lack of rank spaces. It is possible that one's licence could be suspended within a day depending on the level of enforcement or the criteria set down by the NTA on how these penalty points can be given out. We have major issues with these penalty points. There is no system in place to appeal against the imposition of these penalty points. They are issued on the spot. The only option is to challenge them through the court system, thereby putting another burden on taxi drivers.

Vice Chairman

I thank Mr. McGuinness and Mr. Brennan for attending and putting across their points in a very articulate way. I note from the contributions of members that there is strong support for their points of view. It is now the task of the committee to make progress in this regard. I propose that it write to the Minister enclosing a copy of the delegation's presentation. We will be considering Deputy Timmy Dooley's suggestion that there be engagement involving the Minister, the NTA and the deputation. Deputy Desie Ellis asked for the deputation's opinions on the recommendations. Perhaps they might be sent to the clerk who will forward them to the Minister.

Mr. David McGuinness

I thank the Vice Chairman and members.

Vice Chairman

Is it agreed that we write to the Minister? Agreed.

Sitting suspended at 10.40 a.m. and resumed at 10.45 a.m.