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Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 12 Jul 2023

Decarbonisation Strategy for Aviation and Shipping Sectors: Minister of State at the Department of Transport

The purpose of today's meeting is for the joint committee to discuss decarbonising the hard-to-abate sectors of both shipping and aviation, how to boost the uptake of sustainable fuels and maintain affordability and competitiveness at the same time. I am pleased to welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Chambers, and his officials.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via MS Teams to confirm he or she is on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I invite the Minister of State to make his opening statement.

I thank the committee for its invitation to discuss our decarbonisation strategy for the shipping and aviation sectors. Both are vital to our island’s international connectivity and competitiveness but their decarbonisation is highly complex and both are rightly recognised as hard-to-abate sectors. Opportunities for significant emissions abatement will ultimately rely on alternative fuels and for emerging technology pathways to mature and scale. Given the international nature of these sectors, it is essential that we pursue a partnership and commonly negotiated approach to each sector’s decarbonisation. At a European level, this is done through the EU’s Fit for 55 legislative package. At an international level, it is done through forums such as the International Maritime Organisation, IMO, and International Civil Aviation Organisation, ICAO.

While a combination of national, regional and global targets will be needed to plot a sustainable pathway towards decarbonisation, it will be global measures that provide the best opportunity for achieving sector-wide environmental and emissions abatement goals.

Ireland’s long-term strategy for the reduction of greenhouse gas, GHG, emissions sets out a proposed decarbonisation pathway trajectory to achieving our net-zero climate objective for 2050. However, emissions from international aviation and maritime are not currently accounted for within the carbon budget programme and the sectoral emissions ceilings that were agreed by the Government last July. Emissions from domestic aviation and shipping accounted for only 2.3% of our 2018 transport baseline, and the focus of our national climate action plan is therefore concentrated on the land transport sector. Nonetheless, as an island nation reliant on our international connectivity, we recognise that decarbonisation of our aviation and maritime sectors is essential.

An efficient and resilient maritime transport sector is fundamental to the successful functioning of the Irish economy: over 90% of Ireland’s international trade in terms of volume is carried by sea. We have witnessed the sector’s remarkable resilience, agility and ability to respond quickly to changes and challenges, such as Covid-19, Brexit and the current Ukrainian conflict. Shipping is the transport mode with by far the lowest climate footprint per tonne transported, but maritime transport still accounts for between 3% and 4% of EU emissions. There is a need to act decisively in order to align the sector with the global temperature goals of the Paris Agreement. Meaningful and ambitious engagement at the International Maritime Organisation and other voluntary initiatives is essential for the greening of shipping. Ireland has maintained a voice of high ambition throughout such negotiations, alongside other high-ambition countries. In 2021, Ireland became cosignatories to the UK’s Clydebank Declaration for green shipping corridors at COP26 in Glasgow, and has also signed the Declaration on Zero Emission Shipping by 2050. These are both high-ambition declarations signalling Ireland’s intention to work multilaterally on solutions in this area.

Last week’s successful revision of the IMO’s greenhouse gas strategy at the Marine Environment Protection Committee 80, MEPC 80, represents a significant major increase in ambition, establishing a goal of net-zero GHG emissions from ships by or around 2050 relative to the previous 50% target reduction of the 2018 strategy.

The revised strategy also introduced important checkpoints and timelines for the adoption and entry into force of longer-term candidate measures, placing the sector on a pathway to achieving net zero.

At European level, the EU’s Fit for 55 legislative package also includes several proposals, including the ReFuelEU maritime regulation and the alternative fuels infrastructure regulation, both of which the European Parliament voted to adopt yesterday, 11 July, the revised monitoring, reporting, and verification, MRV, regulation and the EU emissions trading system, ETS, directive. Each of these provide regulatory certainty for the shipping industry. While the combination of these files will place additional obligations on the maritime sector, I am confident that the sector can and will apply the same resilience and capabilities, as shown in addressing recent shocks, to addressing our climate challenges.

On alternative fuels supply, the role of our domestic maritime sector will be critical in facilitating the development of offshore renewable energy infrastructure and integral to achieving our wider national targets. This includes delivery of 5 GW of grid-connected offshore wind and developing an additional 2 GW of floating offshore wind to support the production of green hydrogen. Realising these targets for 2030 will help us to electrify and reduce our emissions in the transport sector. It will also allow our ports to play an important role as green energy hubs for future fuels, such as green hydrogen, e-methanol and ammonia.

I will turn to the aviation sector. This sector has a crucial role in maintaining Ireland’s economy, for tourism, for trade, for foreign direct investment and, given our geography, for connectivity with the rest of the world. Ireland, through the programme for Government, is committed to supporting EU and international action to reduce emissions in the sector. This presents a particular challenge as the sector continues to grow in Ireland and internationally. The International Civil Aviation Organization estimates annual growth in European aviation of more than 3% per annum to 2050 for passenger traffic and up to 2.4% for freight traffic. Industry and governments must act decisively and collectively if we are to meet our climate goals. This is recognised in the industry’s shared goal of net-zero carbon emissions by 2050. It is reflected in the adoption at global level of the long-term aspirational goal for aviation emissions reduction.

At European level, measures within the Fit for 55 package, including the ReFuelEU aviation regulation and the strengthened EU’s ETS legislation, will make a significant contribution to decarbonising aviation. This will be done by drawing on the internationally recognised basket of measures, with emphasis on four key pillars. The first is technological advances in aircraft design, which will lead to reduced emissions through more fuel-efficient aircraft, and aircraft powered by alternative energy sources such as hydrogen and electricity, which are currently under development. The second pillar is market-based measures such as the EU’s ETS and the carbon offsetting and reduction scheme in international aviation, CORSIA, which will incentivise airlines to reduce their emissions. The third pillar is improved operational measures such as air traffic management to help reduce fuel burn and time spent in the air. The fourth pillar is the development and deployment of sustainable aviation fuel, commonly known as SAF. Here, the use of SAF is considered to provide the greatest level of emissions abatement. It is estimated that the use of SAF will account for up to 65% of the mitigation needed to achieve the goal of net zero by 2050. A key factor is that SAF, as a drop-in fuel blended with jet kerosene, can be used in current aircraft and existing fuelling infrastructure.

In particular, the ReFuelEU aviation regulation will mandate minimum levels of SAF to be supplied at 2% from 2025 and increase to 70% by 2050, while the granting of free allowances within the EU ETS will further incentivise the uptake of SAF. We will, however, require significant increases in production capacity to meet the ReFuelEU mandate levels. The preparatory ReFuelEU aviation study estimated that more than 100 additional SAF producing plants would be needed in the EU by 2050. In this context, the potential for SAF production in Ireland needs to be properly explored. To support this work, I have asked officials in my Department to establish a cross-departmental working group. This will involve industry experts to inform and guide our future work in this area and it will include an assessment of the potential for local production of SAF in the State, and what barriers may exist currently for producers. This much-needed ramp up of production of SAF reflects the step change needed to meet the demands of the aviation industry. Alongside the complexity of production, lies the additional challenge of ensuring that SAF can be made available at a competitive price. Currently, we expect that the gradual introduction of SAF will result in additional fuel costs for airlines, until production capacity and economies of scale are achieved.

All that being said, there remains an urgent imperative to halt further unsustainable growth in our fossil-fuel usage in all transport sectors, and to decouple our transport systems from a reliance on fossil fuels. Our challenge will be how we meet our climate commitments while maintaining affordability and competitiveness. I trust that this has outlined the huge amount of activity under way and I look forward to the committee’s support as we seek to accelerate and progress the implementation of such measures.

I thank the Minister of State. We will now go to the members. Senator Doherty is taking the first slot on behalf of Deputy Joe Carey.

I thank the Minister of State and his colleagues for coming to the committee today. I have three questions, all of which are related to aviation given my proximity to Dublin Airport and my liking for going to different countries. He said that the aviation sector in Ireland plays an enormous role, and not just in one sector but in lots of sectors. How does the Government intend to balance the need to maintain that level of business while implementing the effective measures needed to reduce carbon emissions?

When we look at the roadmap for SAF, 2050 does not seem that far away. We are really only in the infancy stages of it. Part of the broader strategy to increase production was supposed to be complemented by an incentive programme. Has the Department examined that incentive programme? If so, who is Ireland working with on that?

My third question relates to consumers and people like me. I am hopeful that there will be price supports for that when it does finally come. In the interim, are there any proposals in Ireland or the EU to support the cost of travel with price supports? I am aware that we should not be allowing people to go willy-nilly wherever they want to go and that we should encourage them to use different modes of transport but until we get a fuel that is efficient for the climate and for carbon output, does the Government intend to support consumers with the flights that they will continue to take?

The Senator's first question is very pertinent. In the wider environmental and climate action context, as an island economy we need to ensure that we maintain and strengthen international connectivity within Dublin, which the Senator is close to, and our regional airports. Our wider aviation policy speaks to that. It is about keeping the central economic context of aviation as a core pillar of our wider strategic economic planning. That is the case.

With that being said, consumers internationally expect countries to move with the wider ambition we are seeing in Europe and internationally. This is why Ireland, through the European files, and through the international structures that are there, is seeking to have that climate and vision but not make ourselves uncompetitive. We are clear about this in the context of our current aviation policies, which speak to the factual position of where Ireland sits as an island economy and needing to meet that climate ambition as well. This moves us on to SAF and the pathway there. When we look at the wider projections in the context of ReFuelEU, I will set out some of the obligations to give members context for where we are on SAF. We are mandated at the moment to have a share of 2% in 2025 and to increase to 70% by 2050. This shows the scale of what we have to achieve across the European Union. At the moment the production capacity is at .05%, sitting beside overall jet kerosene. There is a huge amount to go in scaling up production. The regulatory signals that have been made within the EU will provide certainty for industry to invest and develop the production capacity. It will also make sure, in a wider regulatory context, that Ireland is not isolated. A flexibility mechanism is being integrated in the European files. It allows for a ten-year transition period where suppliers can supply the required level of SAF as a weighted average across the EU, rather than at each airport within the scope.

That gives us time to build that transition. We are establishing a structure in the autumn, with a combination of industry experts and experts within the State, from an energy perspective, to look at the tier points. If one looks at what the US has done on price incentives, around production and consumption, Europe has provided more of a regulatory signal than doing the direct incentives. We must look at this, however, as an island economy with respect to what is realistic as regards SAF consumption and at what the potential financial triggers are, which would enable greater production of SAF to meet our wider European obligations. I have engaged with many stakeholders in different airports and airlines and with industry experts and people in the energy sector, and many have a different view as to what Ireland should do in the medium- to long term when it comes to SAF production or consumption and with regard to what the market signals we have to give. We must get a rounded view on that and bringing everyone together will help meet our overall European ambition.

This also speaks to the wider context and the opportunities for Ireland around SAF production. Senator Dooley was present at the Shannon Estuary task force event. There is potential around green hydrogen and potential around the fuel mix we will have beyond 2030, together with the opportunities there from an Irish context. We are working to build a pathway on SAF which will address some of the questions asked by Senator Doherty, but we have existing obligations.

Some of the airlines have moved ahead and have set their own targets. Aer Lingus has a target of 10% SAF by 2030 and Ryanair has a 12.5% target. They are moving ahead with their own ambition and some have signed contracts in Europe and in the US. The flexibility mechanism which has been integrated in the European files allows for a more level playing field as airports and countries manage that transition.

On the Senator's final point on pricing, we have a liberalised deregulated market in aviation. The most important thing is to ensure we have a level playing field and a very competitive market. People can see the benefit of that in our airports. Once we have a level playing field in the European regulated segment to this environmental file, providing any type of indirect or direct supports to consumers would not be the appropriate mechanism. This is about ensuring the transition is realistic and possible and that we have a competitive aviation sector to protect and grow our economy.

Under the EU regulations, it would not be possible to intervene by way of distorting market competition when one takes in the wider European context. I hope that addresses some of the Senator's questions.

It does but does the Minister of State see Ireland as having more than one SAF plant and, if so, what kind of timelines are we envisaging? I appreciate we are very much at the infancy stage of this but sometimes these things have an accelerator and tend to happen much faster than we expect them to.

At the moment, we have no production and all aviation fuel is imported. It is too early to say whether the recommendations from the group in the short- to medium term will be on looking at the consumption piece to incentivise greater use or whether they will be to incentivise production early and develop a greater production capacity. This is very much about getting that rounded view. Obviously, we have ambition in the mid-west and in other areas on SAF. Whatever we do, however, it is about taking a long-term strategic view on that. It is too early to say how many or where but we are ambitious to meet our overall obligations on SAF and that very much aligns with our wider energy policy.

I thank the Minister of State.

I thank Senator Doherty. Deputy Crowe may proceed as he is next to speak. I can give the Deputy some time if he wants and I can call Senator Dooley first.

I will come in after Senator Dooley, if that is okay. I thank the Chair.

I thank the Minister of State very much. He and his delegates are very welcome. As he identified, there are very important opportunities for this country and it is appropriate that our transport network and systems are in a position to serve those opportunities. The ones which follow on from what my colleague, Senator Doherty, talked about are the opportunities not just around aviation but the capture of offshore wind, which the Minister of State identified.

There is a necessity to heavily invest in key infrastructure, whether in our ports, our rail system or in the wider road network. In that context, I suggest that the Minister of State look at the road from Ennis to Kilrush. I recognise the development which will ultimately take place there, and I accept much of the traffic will be by sea, but many more people will be working there. That section of road needs a significant upgrade to meet the increased demand. We see the potential to harness other activities when the electricity is brought ashore, and Deputy Crowe, myself and others have been working on this for quite some time. This would be specifically in the areas identified by the Minister of State, such as hydrogen, ammonia and other potential offshoots from the vast amounts of electricity that can be captured in the Atlantic Ocean.

There is also potential, as identified by Senator Doherty, with sustainable aviation fuel. We believe Shannon, in particular, has that potential because of its access to the estuary and the research work going on in the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, and the University of Limerick, UL, and I am sure my colleague believes the same of Dublin. I know Trinity College Dublin is also engaged in this. We are a small island and we should identify a location and the Shannon Estuary, in particular, could play a significant role in that. There are opportunities there.

There is a great deal of talk about data centres at the moment and that we should be telling them to leave or that they should not be expanding. As I have said, and as I am sure the Minister of State and many others have said, but it is worth repeating, the reality is there are some in the Oireachtas who suggest data centres are unnecessary or that they are nice to have. The assumption is that they are just storing TikTok videos, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. A volume of what was stored in office space is now stored in these data centres. I see them as the filing cabinets we had 30 years ago, or the rack systems which were in every building. That is the engine of our economy and we cannot be lackadaisical about protecting that into the future. We must protect our data and have it in Ireland.

In the area around the Shannon Estuary, in particular around Moneypoint and Kilrush, there are significant opportunities for the data centre business, where one does not need new wires or networks to facilitate that.

That is a roundabout way of saying to the Minister of State that there is very significant potential along the Shannon Estuary, particularly on the Clare side. We need the Minister of State’s Department to look at the roads. I know work on the ports is under way and that work is being done in Foynes. We also need work done on the rail network because if more people will be living and working in the region, we will need to put the systems in place. While I accept the road network is necessary and we need to improve it, we should be looking at the rail network connection to Shannon Airport. That is something which has real potential. I know Deputy Crowe has spoken about opening up new stations around Limerick, as I have. That is under way but we need to connect to Shannon Airport. That is my plug for Clare.

It is amazing how we can move from aviation to talking about a road in Clare.

It is all local, a Leas-Chathaoirligh.

Yes, it is all connected. I thank the Senator for his remarks. On his first question on the Ennis to Kilrush piece and the rail network, as part of that Shannon Estuary task force, there will be an integrated transport planning framework which must evolve from that. A wider review will take place of current plans. That is one of the actions which has been taken from the Shannon Estuary task force. As we scale up the ambition within the region, there is an inevitable infrastructure necessity which will arise from that across all transport modes, as the Senator said. We will take that feedback away and I appreciate the Senator's input on it.

On the Senator's other point, I agree a positive message came from the mid-west last week regarding the potential of the new digital economy. We are digitalising and there is spillover of renewable energy, which offers huge industrial potential. As he said, the new economy revolves around significant data. With the huge energy potential of the Atlantic corridor, the mid-west has a massive opportunity. The pinch point in the short term cannot allow us to miss the opportunity in the long term for our country, particularly the whole western coast, and the massive benefits that will accrue from it in energy, transport, logistics, business, new industry and everything else that is spoken about in the wider report. Out of that ambition, it is important that we have proper and sustainable transport planning. As I said, an integrated transport planning framework for the region will be developed. That will be worked on following this publication.

I really appreciate the Minister of State's response.

I thank the Minister of State and his staff for attending the meeting. Emissions from the international aviation and maritime sector are not currently counted within the carbon budget. It is estimated that shipping emissions account for 2.3% of domestic emissions. Most of that is in the international context. Is it the case, as I understand it, that just under 20% of carbon emissions globally are considered to be from aviation? How is that counted? While it is well and good to look at the domestic side of it, and it is only counted for the ceiling, we have to count it in the bigger picture and we must take account of the bigger picture. I assume a proportion of the international greenhouse emissions that come from aviation, shipping and all of that will have to be allocated to different countries. Otherwise, how will we deal with them? I was surprised there is no count of those emissions, or is there such a count somewhere even though it might not be included in the emissions ceiling?

Is green hydrogen the ambition for maritime? Is that the change that is going to happen, with the emissions from shipping changing to green hydrogen? I assume they are mainly diesel at the moment. Is that what is expected to happen and, if so, is there a timescale as to when and how maritime will make that transition?

The Minister of State mentioned SAF and the fact it can be used for existing infrastructure and existing aeroplanes. That is obviously the direction in which we need to go. My colleagues' questions on how soon we will be able to scale this up must be taken into account. The fact we do not produce aviation fuel at all in Ireland at the moment suggests it will be produced somewhere else and imported. Is that what the industry wants to do? While we may have an ambition in this regard, it will be very much driven by what the aviation industry is doing. It is the most mobile industry we have. It can go anywhere in the world to get whatever it wants. Is there really a need for Ireland to be trying to move into production, or should we put our energies into other places?

International aviation accounts for between 2% and 3% of emissions. That is the international position.

To clarify, is that the international figure?

Yes. Internationally, aviation accounts for 2% to 3% of emissions. Inland domestic aviation accounts for less than 0.2% of greenhouse gas emissions in Ireland.

It says 2.3% in the documentation in front of me.

I understand that refers to aviation and shipping combined.

Yes.

The Deputy asked about green hydrogen. At the moment, the European file on FuelEU Maritime is technologically neutral. The purpose of that is to offer potential for and allow industry to navigate the most consistent path to reaching its greenhouse gas emissions target. For example, there are opportunities potentially around ammonia, methanol, various biofuels and blends of e-fuels. It is really about offering potential across all the areas. Green hydrogen is one of the opportunities but the file at the moment is really about trying to trigger that ambition across all the different opportunities. The technology and the fleet a particular industry player has will impact its ability to change to one of the particular fuels.

On the wider targets, the reduction for shipping in the EU file is 2% in 2025 , 6% in 2023 and up to 80% by 2050. The greenhouse gas targets are quite back-ended.

They are indeed very back-ended.

Yes, as per the EU file. It is important to note that in the wider picture, shipping is much more carbon efficient compared with other modes of transport.

I understand that.

I can give the Deputy some domestic context regarding the Irish flag and Irish ships. They have been very proactive in complying with current regulations and future-proofing their new-build ships for technical efficiency. The average age of ships linked to the Irish flag is under ten years old. The younger vessels tend to be much more energy efficient and can last between 25 and 30 years. If we compare Ireland with some of the other European countries, we currently have a young fleet and quite a fuel efficient maritime sector. However, as part of the pooling mechanism and FuelEU Maritime, it will be important to increase the blend of the different fuel mixes. The FuelEU Maritime initiative is technologically neutral because it is at quite an early stage compared with what is being done on other modes within the transport sector.

On SAF, we are establishing a co-ordinated structure to examine it and try to build a consensus on where Ireland should go and what the pathway can be. The reason there is a ten-year transition within the European file is to give flexibility to airlines to get SAF into particular airports or areas that have developed that production capacity and to keep a competitive market. We have to bottom that out. I have heard different perspectives on this from different people within industry. If we make a recommendation to the Department of Finance on taxation, for example, we must make sure it is the right call on SAF for the long term. That is what we are going to do. We want to achieve a better consensus. As I said, I have been given very different perspectives from different people within the aviation sector.

The Minister of State mentioned there will be an additional cost on airlines to transition. In addition, the expectation is that fuel will be more expensive. Will that change in time, with the prices expected to reduce? At the moment, it can be very cheap for people to fly in some cases. Some would say it is too cheap. In other cases, it is much more expensive. There needs to be some balance introduced to see how we can find the correct spot whereby people are not flying on a whim, given we know it has serious consequences for the environment, while, at the same time, we need to keep aviation open. We are an island. For business and a whole range of reasons, we must keep aviation open. In that context, can the Minister of State give any timescale for when we will reach a point at which the cost starts to level out or reduce?

In the economic analysis, the expectation is that the cost will come down as production scales up. That is why there is huge ambition in the regulatory signals the EU file has offered. There is a number of big players in the European market that are developing SAF production.

We just need to make sure from an Irish context that we are involved. However, it is broader than that. For example, the two main carriers in Ireland, Ryanair and Aer Lingus, have a good pipeline of new aircraft which are 20% to 25% more fuel efficient. Over the period of a year and the way airlines sweat an asset, that has an enormous reduction in their current fuel demand. Second, AirNav Ireland, which was formerly the Irish Aviation Authority, has been at the forefront of European air traffic control and making sure we have much more efficient traffic systems in the European context which can provide proper fuel savings. It is also within airports themselves. It is the combined basket of measures which will make a big difference. Sustainable aviation fuel, SAF, has a role because it will do a lot of the heavy lifting but the cumulative impact of the other measures can be very positive too.

How much more expensive is SAF now in comparison? Is it twice the price?

It is much more. It is three to ten times as much.

There is a steep hill to be climbed.

That is why the US Government has provided a price incentive on production and on consumption and through taxation interventions. Europe has tried a wider regulatory signal, but taking the current European file, the minimum share of SAF will start at 2% in 2025, so it is starting at a low base. The challenge between now and 2025 is in production capacity within Europe.

So it is getting to 2%.

Yes, I think that is a challenge. The European Commission has said it will have to have an ongoing review of this and its wider implementation. It is good there is ambition and that we give the signal to industry that, as we scale production, costs should reduce. Then there is potential in other inputs in how SAF is made which are undergoing research and development. The airlines themselves have ambition that aligns very much with the European file. As I said, Ryanair is 12.5% by 2030 and Aer Lingus is 10%. Both have significant orders with existing industry players. That gives a positive medium-term context.

The trajectory is obvious; it is going to get more expensive to fly.

That seems to be the case.

It has already.

Sometimes you have to gather your thoughts when you come into a committee room. There is so much we juggle here in the day. I thank the Minister of State for his engagement, as always. He is really leading out his side of the Department very well and we are very grateful.

I will begin on SAF. There is an issue I have raised in the Dáil a number of times. We have a very exciting future in hydrogen production and how it can be used. There are buses in the capital city powered by hydrogen and there is a regional plan to roll it out more extensively. However, I have often raised the matter with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, of how Ireland has no national ammonia strategy. Global transport is moving that way. The Chinese have already commanded a position of world dominance in this in ammonia manufacture. European countries have an ammonia strategy. It is seen as being a far more stable fuel. If I can remember my leaving certificate science, my chemistry, if hydrogen, which it is hoped Ireland will have plenty of, is infused with nitrogen, you get ammonia and ammonia can be brought in tanker ships around the world. It is a very stable fuel and it is not as combustible. The most important thing about ammonia, however, is that an ammonia molecule has no carbon atom. In layman’s terms, it means it can be burned day in, day out every day of the year and it does not release any carbon into the atmosphere. We are light years away from having ammonia-powered planes, but that is not so with seafaring vessels. Many of the major shipping companies are looking at ammonia-powered engines. There are also various spin-off benefits, including fertiliser production and plastics. Ammonia is the way to go. There are other Departments which probably have a function on this but I would love to see it become part of the discourse of the Department of Transport so that, while we drive on with hydrogen, we also have a strategy on ammonia, and certainly in shipping into the future. I have been googling this. I do not expect the Minister of State to be an expert on it. Maybe he is.

I always enjoyed chemistry but I have to get a refresh on my ammonia.

NH3, I think it was.

I thank the Chair. But to be serious about this, the Deputy is correct. Certainly in the maritime sector, the European file is neutral as to what fuels will be used in the future, but in terms of the wider ambition on greenhouse gas emissions reduction, ammonia is referenced as one of those fuels. Obviously, we have ongoing engagement with our colleagues in the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. The national hydrogen strategy will be launched this week, it is hoped, but policy evolution will have to be ongoing on other alternative fuels, ammonia being one. From my engagement with other colleagues at the European Transport Council, particularly in the maritime sector, ammonia is playing a really important role.

I am glad to hear the hydrogen strategy will be announced. I am looking at what other countries have done. The two things play off each other quite often. There is only one chemical exchange between hydrogen and ammonia and so many other demands are fulfilled by doing that conversion.

I think there is a role for Shannon in this. In the 1970s, Aeroflot had a big presence in Shannon Airport where it constructed a fuel farm. At any time, there is capacity there to store 33,000 tonnes of aviation fuel. We expect that to transition and we will be in the space of SAF and sustainable fuels very shortly. As we go about the national strategy, Shannon has to be key. When we go to hydrogen-powered flights, it will be something of a return to the pioneering days where aeroplanes probably will have to touch down a little more and refuel a little more often. It brings our west of Ireland airports much more into play in relation to transatlantic flights. We will probably be out of the Dallas to Frankfurt space flights for a while. We are probably talking about touching down in Ireland and taking off again. A hydrogen strategy should include how and where we refuel planes and using assets such as the fuel farm in Shannon.

There is huge ambition, and the task force report speaks to that huge potential around sustainable aviation fuel and hydrogen. Shannon Airport is a very important intermodal transport hub, so it involves integrating that with logistics and the digital potential within the region. We are absolutely clear with the task force report announced at the weekend and the hydrogen strategy. It is all looking west. That is where we need to ensure we match the ambition and the potential in these reports with the infrastructure and planning. That is something we are keen to do from a transport perspective, working with Shannon Airport and others on that wider issue. It is also why we are specifically establishing in the Department a structure on sustainable aviation fuel, bringing in industry and others, to develop a pathway for the long term. There is huge ambition in the task force report around that.

A few months ago, Michael O’Leary from Ryanair was before the committee. He bemoaned how environmental taxes were being levied more on passengers on short-haul flights. It suits the long-haul carriers, bigger airlines such as KLM, which go from hub airport to hub airport, while passengers on airlines such as Ryanair and Aer Lingus are penalised more by comparison. Strictly speaking, this does not come under the Minister of State’s Department and there are a number of competing issues. There is an environmental argument and there is the taxation treatment of aviation more generally, but I appeal to the Minister of State with responsibility for aviation to be our last line of defence, knowing we are an island nation and we will need aeroplanes to get in and out of continental Europe and go transatlantic. We have to embrace where we are going environmentally, and I think everyone wants to be on that path together, but surely when we are talking about the environmental taxation of aviation, Ireland would not be treated any worse than any other country in terms of where we are as an island.

I share many of the Deputy's perspectives on that. There is a bit of a contradiction at the moment between the intra-European position, the wider international position and the gap there. Part of that is that we need to have climate ambition but there is also that mismatch between the existing emissions trading system and, of course, CORSIA. I acknowledge some of the concerns in that regard. It probably gives an unfair advantage to central European flag-carriers that do very long-haul flights with a lot of business class seats. When we take the punters we all represent who want to go on their holiday to wherever they are going within Europe, there is a higher threshold when it comes to the European system. That is something that exists. I have reflected it internally within the Department and elsewhere. I share the Deputy's concerns around that.

As for what we can do about it, the emissions trading system is in place. The purpose within Europe was to bring Europe to a point of ambition to try to allow the international context to follow, which is important. If we had that international level of ambition, it would be a fully clarified level playing field. The European Commission is going to review this and will report by July 2026 to assess the environmental integrity of CORSIA, which is the international piece. If it has not been strengthened sufficiently, then a legislative proposal to apply the emissions trading system to all departing flights will be put forward for discussion, which would give a greater level playing field compared with the mismatch we have at the moment.

On the wider energy taxation piece, that file on the energy taxation directive is being co-ordinated by the Department of Finance. As others have said, we have to protect our international connectivity as an island nation within that for tourism, trade, business and all the reasons of which members are all very well aware.

I have two quick final questions the Minister of State might be able to answer. First of all, he recently visited County Clare with me and we were very grateful to have him there. He visited the motor taxation office, which is the headquarters for everything in Ireland and where vehicle log books are processed. It is a fascinating place. I never knew until we went into the bowels of that building how much actually happened there. It was incredible. One thing we saw as we turned every corner were buckets on the floor and dripping roofs. The building has had its day. The Department of Transport some years ago bought an industrial unit in the industrial zone in Shannon with a view to moving the motor taxation office over there. I do not expect the Minister of State to have an answer on this today but that building is not fit for purpose. It is not right to have staff in there. Many really important national records are held within that building. There are computer systems with pretty sketchy roofing over them and leaks and whatnot. I would love for the Department of Transport to prioritise a new home for that unit.

The regional airports review is under way and the deadline for submissions went through just last month. At the moment in Ireland, our rule for providing funding to regional airports is that airports have a passenger throughput of 1 million or lower. However, EU state aid rules allow us to fund airports that have a throughput of 3 million passengers or lower. Therefore, the ask of Shannon Airport, Cork Airport and Ireland West Airport Knock - the west of Ireland airports - is that in budget 2024, which will be announced in early October, the Government will honour that.

We are worried that although the regional airport review is happening, the budget is coming up and if we do not accommodate this somehow, they will lose out on budget day and that funding stream will not happen. The Minister of State might even give an assurance today that there is some positivity happening on this front. They are just worried that the data set that is being used now is based on a Covid throughput of passengers. The data set that will be scrutinised this September will be from last year, which was a good year for them. However, all those airports, crucially, are under the 3 million passenger ceiling the EU sets. Surely, we can fund them. It just gives them a lease of life and allows them to flourish.

On the first question, we visited the tremendous staff in the motor tax office who do incredible work. We saw the volume of paper that arrives there, as well as the incredible work of all the public servants working there. The Deputy is correct that the existing conditions are problematic. We have been engaging on that internally within the Department. Obviously, it is in co-ordination with the Office of Public Works as well. I will get a proper take on the current position and revert to the Deputy and perhaps the committee on that issue.

On the regional airports programme, it was important in the last number of years to give that uplift to the regional airports. I have engaged extensively with the Deputy and others within the mid-west region but also the other airports that could be affected if the existing policy persists in Knock and Cork. That review is due in quarter 4. I am cognisant of the wider argument but also the need to continue to give uplift to the regional airports in terms of investment and give the opportunities for passengers and throughput when-----

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister of State. If the review and budget day do not align perfectly, could he somehow give reassurance that the funding model will continue until the new system is up and running?

The review will obviously produce a report and we will have to make a decision at that point. Decisions are regularly made by Government outside of the strict parameters of specific budget day decisions within Departments. The Department of Transport has a multibillion euro budget and the regional airports programme is a very small fraction of it, to give assurance around that. We are doing the review because of the feedback we received from the regional airports and communities within those areas. We are taking their feedback very seriously. As I said, we will have that ready in quarter 4 of this year.

I thank the Minister of State. I encourage him to keep up the good work

I thank Deputy Crowe very much. It is my slot now and I have a few questions. This topic we are discussing today is on foot of an interparliamentary committee meeting in Brussels I attended on behalf of this committee and Parliament regarding the hard-to-abate sectors. It was very interesting to hear the different perspectives from countries that were also contributing. Representatives from many different EU countries were in attendance. Some people were giving a presentation, like myself, and others were just there to listen and contribute from the floor. One got the feeling from central Europe that people were asking why we cannot all use trains. In France, they have reduced flights of less than two hours where there is a decent rail service and so on. Then, people like ourselves, Malta, the Canary Islands and northern Sweden were saying that it is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. We always have to keep banging the drum and reminding people that unlike many other places, we cannot jump on a train in the same way they can. They can even go from London to Brussels or London to Paris very handily on the Eurostar but we cannot. It is important - I acknowledge the Minister of State does this - that we all remind people that it is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. We are all doing our very best. We all want to do our very best in every way.

Making use of our trip to Brussels, we also visited Eurocontrol and paid a visit to Ms Mairead McGuinness, our Commissioner. We also visited the Directorate-General for Mobility and Transport,DG MOVE, which deals with the aviation sector in the European Commission. We were reminding people that aviation is central to all of our activity in Ireland. We punch well above our weight in this regard. Our colleagues from County Clare have left the room, but a statue was recently erected in County Clare to Brendan O'Regan, who actually invented the concept of duty-free, which is all over the world now. It was invented in Shannon, as was Irish coffee. Half the world's aeroplanes that are leased are based out of Ireland. The biggest airline in Europe, Ryanair, is based in Ireland. Equally, Aer Lingus is also a big contributor to both Ireland and aviation generally. Indeed, Mr. Willie Walsh is director general of the International Air Transport Association, IATA, the chief executive of British Airways is Irish, the chief executive of Qantas up until very recently was Irish and so on. We have a lot to do with aviation.

However, we also heard about things like, and I am not sure how much work we are doing on this now, the powering of the aircraft when they are on the ground. Rather than using the engines to power the aircraft and air conditioning and so on, it would be done by electricity. Equally, when cruise ships come into Dublin, the idea is that they are not using fuel, if you like, but electricity from the grid, which is hopefully being generated from renewable energy, for example, or offshore wind when it gets going and so on.

My question is about where we are in respect of on-the-ground activities, for example, with the taxiing or the push-back of the aircraft or using the engines less on the ground.

It will not change the consumption of fuel by long-haul flights hugely, but what are we doing to do everything we can do to decarbonise and remove the use of fossil fuels where we can?

Ultimately, and a lot of members have touched on this, do we expect to have some plans in Ireland to generate sustainable aviation fuel ourselves? Obviously, it is all imported at the moment, and it is very small at the moment. I think we are looking at it being used at 65% or 70% by 2050. There will be a blend of 70% sustainable aviation fuel by 2050. This is not as far away as it sounds, as Senator Doherty pointed out. Based on the fact there is a very large airport very close to the Minister of State's constituency and to where many of us members are, we will need lots of sustainable aviation fuel. We also need to be doing other things. Everything we do in terms of aviation and maritime must include reducing and removing the use of fossil fuel in every part. What else are we doing and what else can we do?

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. On his first point, he is correct in saying that it is not a case of one size fits all. People who are going to Dublin Airport today want to go on their holidays. Some others are going by rail and sail, and it is good we are seeing improved figures on that, but for many people, we need international connectivity. We also need it to bring tourists here. The Leas-Chathaoirleach is correct in saying that some of the central European economies have a very different context compared with the citizens we all represent. I share his point on that. I am very clear that this is something I will articulate in any engagements I will have.

On the issue of Eurocontrol, and the Leas-Chathaoirleach has mentioned the committee has engaged on that, it is something on which we are actively trying to build continued momentum. It has been ongoing for a long time in Single European Sky, SES, which is to make our air traffic control system more efficient and co-ordinated. There was frustration with the French air traffic control strikes, for example. Again, that has environmental consequences if air traffic is being redirected all across Europe. There are huge opportunities there to have better co-operation in Europe. It is something we are continuing to prioritise.

The Leas-Chathaoirleach spoke to the wider point of Ireland's strong history of aviation from Shannon Airport and other areas and how we have built global recognition around that, including aircraft leasing and a whole range of other initiatives that have happened from Ireland. We need to continue to promote that and I agree with the Leas-Chathaoirleach on that.

On the issue of sustainable aviation fuel, as I said, we are establishing the structure to develop a better consensus on the next steps and a pathway. I think we will. If you look at the European ambition, it is inevitable that Irish airports will have storage or production, particularly given the ambition in Shannon Airport. However, we need to bottom out all of those issues and set out a pathway that is better than what is being set out in the European context.

On the Leas-Chathaoirleach's other point, we must focus on the basket of measures, as he has said, whether it is traffic management in an airport, air traffic control, efficiency in the sky itself, more fuel-efficient aircraft and technology and the increased use of SAF and the wider measures that are there. All will cumulatively improve the environmental piece in aviation and build a more sustainable sector, which is what we want to encourage through our own policy instruments and through our own ambition in Europe while balancing that against making sure we continue to have competitiveness and a strong economic argument for wider aviation policy.

To re-emphasise, all the things we do at an airport are aviation related. You may end up on an Aer Lingus aeroplane that, at 10 o'clock on a Sunday night, is turning right to the south gates and, all of a sudden, you are getting on a bus that brings you all over the place before you finally get to the gates for passport control.

On that point, we have some figures on Dublin Airport and Cork, for example, and they have significantly reduced their emissions since 2018. I will try to get them here.

The Minister of State can find the figures afterwards if he does not have them. It is interesting.

I have them here. In 2022, Dublin Airport reduced its emissions by 24%, and in Cork Airport the figure was 38%, compared with the 2018 base, which is based on average.

They are very impressive figures, to be fair.

These are in the areas of energy management, LED upgrade works, an ambitious fleet replacement programme and participation in the SEAI and OPW Reduce Your Use campaigns. Within the airports themselves, they are really embracing sustainability. They have a big ambition-----

When we visited either Cork or Dublin, they were talking about getting solar panels.

Yes, and this is similarly the case for our regional airports. A lot of what we funded through the regional airports programme is very much focused on sustainability. Shannon Airport, Ireland West Airport, Donegal Airport and Kerry Airport all have big ambitions for sustainability. The emissions reductions demonstrate the progress they have made.

Aviation is so central to our success in so many different ways. While many of our exports by volume go out via the marine, which is acknowledged, I am sure by value it is quite a different thing. Products such as microchips-----

-----very high-value pharmaceuticals and some medical devices and so on would be of extremely high value. Aviation is so necessary for such a small open economy, such as the one we have, that is so dependent on exports and producing certain things for the world that we are very good at producing. Equally, however, people need to appreciate that we do not have the rail network, such as they have in the Czech Republic, Italy, Spain, France or Germany. We did not traditionally have the densities of population to justify it either. We are still an island and we do not have a bridge or tunnel to anywhere else, so aviation is very important.

I also support the point Michael O'Leary put forward about the whole area of emissions trading. Of course, we want to be looking at everybody, but the fact is a passenger on a long-haul plane transiting through Schiphol Airport and going somewhere else afterwards is charged almost nothing while, at the same time, ordinary Irish families flying economy class to Faro, Malaga or the Canary Islands for their summer holidays once a year face a far higher charge. We need to keep banging that drum. I know the Minister of State is doing so, but we as a nation need to remind people that it is all very well for Europe to be playing its part, as it should, but the rest of the world should be playing its part too. It ends up that those on long-haul flights are paying less than those on short-haul flights in many cases. If you go intra-EU, you will be paying it, but if you are flying to Morocco, Tunisia or somewhere, you will not be paying it.

As I have said earlier-----

I know the Minister of State knows this, but we need to let the world we are focused on it.

It is also important to look at the fact that the success of aviation has been because of the liberalisation of the market and allowing competitiveness to benefit consumers. When there is that mismatch between intra-EU and international, there is a market distortion. It is welcome that the European Commission is going to review it in 2026.

I thank the Minister of State for all he is doing. I know he is relatively new to this role, but it is clear he is very much on top of his brief. From our perspective, we value the work that is being done by the Department in aviation. We have been looking a lot at aviation policy and the airports programme. We have had lots of very interesting contributors before the committee to discuss aviation. We look forward to the Minister of State coming back before the committee again in the not-too-distant future to talk about other aspects of his brief, including aviation. I thank him very much.

Sorry, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, do I get a chance to ask any questions?

I was on my slot, which I have just finished, and you were not here for the first hour.

I appreciate that. I had a couple of things I had to deal with.

You are here now. I have used less time than my full slot, and I will bring you in next because you have not spoken yet. Go ahead.

Thank you very much, a Leas-Chathaoirligh. The Minister of State is welcome to the committee. He is new in the job, so I am not aiming any of my comments in particular directly at him.

When we talk about aviation, sustainability and all of these things, as far as I am concerned, that includes everything from the moment I leave my house until I am in the air. I am really disturbed by figures that have been released in recent days, especially regarding MetroLink. A total of €99 million has been expended. I do not expect the Minister of State to answer this today, but I would like him to come back to me with answers. A total of €99 million has been wasted on MetroLink. The estimate for MetroLink was originally €3 billion. It has escalated to €21 billion. That is just unbelievable stuff.

Another area, which I do not expect the Minister of State to speak on today, that has turned out to be a mess and which I predicted two and a half years ago and have worked on for the past two years is the search and rescue contract that was awarded.

We have awarded a contract to, or, at least, we have a preferred bidder now-----

I remind the Senator that we are here to discuss aviation and maritime and hard-to-abate sectors.

I think the Leas-Chathaoirleach will find that SAR is both aviation and maritime.

It is also the subject of a court case at the moment.

I do not intend to discuss the court case. I did say to the Minister of State that I expect him to respond to me outside the meeting. We are entitled to a response. The SAR issue is before the courts, as my colleague has pointed out. The issue is that for two and a half years, we tried to get officials from the Minister of State's Department to come before the committee and answer questions. That has led to the situation the State now finds itself in, which is likely to cost the State money.

I seek an assurance from the Minister of State that he will ensure that his Department, and the areas for which he has responsibility, come under the oversight of this committee. We have been refused oversight in certain areas for over two years, and that is grossly unacceptable by any manner or means. I am not going to put the Minister of State on the spot today and ask him to commit to anything. I ask him to go away and reflect on the matter and to read the communications from me and the committee from the past two and half years. I have a letter signed by the senior Minister and the Minister of State's predecessor telling me that as far as SAR was concerned, they had no oversight because they did not know what was happening but they trusted the officials to do a good job. That is grossly unacceptable, and I believe it has led us to the situation we are in now. I am not going to pursue the issue any further because, as I say, it is before the courts. However, I would like some assurance from the Minister of State. He is a very hands-on Minister who is not afraid to take on challenges.

Members of the public are entitled to an answer as to why the cost of the MetroLink project has gone from €3 billion to €21 billion. They are entitled to an answer about the €99 million that has been written off. The money is gone and is nowhere to be found. Even the DART project involved a waste of €32 million. How is this happening? In the view of the Minister of State, is it the case that committees such as this one do not have the oversight they should have in order to ensure things run according to plan? There are examples of money going out of this country hand over fist right across the areas within the remit of committees. The Committee of Public Accounts looks at ineffective expenditure. One of the questions that has to be asked is why we did not buy the five helicopters we use for SAR and let the contractors fly them. The contractors leave when the contract is up, and take the helicopters with them.

We are discussing the hard-to-abate sectors of aviation and maritime, and the decarbonising of that area.

Maybe the decarbonisation might come in the SAR area from the new contract for AW189 helicopters, which we were told a year ago were not suitable for the Irish situation. I am going to leave it at that because it is not fair on the Minister of State, who is only new in the job. I ask him to come back to me with answers. I do not expect them to be given here, in a public forum.

Does the Minister of State wish to respond?

As the procurement process is subject to legal challenge before the Commercial Court, it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that matter in any way. I know the matter of MetroLink and the cost of the project were discussed at the Committee of Public Accounts recently. The Minister has direct responsibility for that within the Department, but I will ask the Department to provide any updated information that is available. I will say, however, say that this Government has committed to making progress on the project. I know the communities represented by Senator Doherty have waited a long time for it to be delivered. The project is entered into the planning system and we want to make progress. I accept that the timeframe for completion can be a point of frustration for many communities, but at least we are trying to make it happen. On the wider figures, some of them are in the public domain through the Committee of Public Accounts and other committees. I am sure the Department will provide whatever information is available to the committee.

The Department has been very forward-thinking in some areas, such as with the introduction of electric buses. Then somebody drops the ball and we find there are no charging points. There are 100 buses that cannot be used at the moment. I do not know who is responsible for these things, but they point to a failure on our part, as members of the committees, to exercise oversight. The reason we are not able to exercise oversight is that the Department is not co-operating with us.

I have huge respect for every member of the committees and the work they do. I am not sure what engagement the committee has had with the Department on the matters highlighted by the Senator. If the committee is seeking information, where appropriate, we will ask the officials to provide it.

I want to go back to the issue of the SAF pathway for a moment. The Minister of State may not know this because it may not be in the public domain yet, but SAF use currently stands at 0.05% and we hope to get to 2% by 2025.

That is in Europe.

Yes, I do not mean in Ireland. Looking at the ambitions of Aer Lingus and Ryanair, they hope to achieve rates of 10% and 12.5%, respectively, by 2030, which is only a few years away. The Minister of State said the regulatory changes were going to provide incentives or security to the investors to allow us to get there. I am assuming the investors are Aer Lingus, Ryanair and all the other airlines that have to do that. Do we know what those regulatory changes are going to be yet? Has there been any kind of indication of what kind of security will be provided to the investors to encourage them to invest?

Within ReFuelEU and the existing European files, there is a minimum mandate across aviation. That demonstrates that there is a necessity for demand and that gives regulatory certainty to the players within the aviation sector. Now, it falls to the airlines, the airports and the producers to scale that level of capacity. That is why Ryanair and others have signed contracts with many of the players in sustainable SAF production. We are at a low base and we need to ensure, from an Irish context, that we allow for that ambition within Europe. There is obviously a ten-year transition period for other countries, including some of the central European economies that have some SAF production at present. We need to ensure we make the decisions now so that we are in a good place in the 2030s.

I have not read the ReFuelEU policy, so I ask the Minister of State to excuse my ignorance. Within that policy, are there sticks if countries or the industry do not reach the targets by the years outlined? I understand why we cannot provide incentives but are there penalties if countries do not meet the targets?

The obligation is on the fuel supplier. Obviously, SAF is a blended fuel. There are fines if the suppliers do not meet the targets.

I thank the Minister of State.

I think we have all made our points. I thank the Minister of State for attending to discuss the topics we were addressing and I thank his officials for assisting him in this important matter today.

The joint committee adjourned at 2.49 p.m. sine die.
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