Joint Committee on Transport and Communications díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Mar 2024

Iarnród Éireann: Chairperson Designate

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Apologies have been received in advance of our meeting from Senators Gerry Horkan, Gerard Craughwell and Regina Doherty. The purpose of today's meeting of the joint committee is to meet with the chairperson designate of Iarnród Éireann, Irish Rail, Steve Murphy. On behalf of the committee, I welcome Mr. Steve Murphy, the chairperson designate of Iarnród Éireann, and his colleagues from Irish Rail.

I will read a note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory with regard to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically presence within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contribution to the meeting.

Without further ado, I invite Mr. Murphy to make his opening statement to the committee.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to attend the committee today. It is a genuine honour to have been nominated by the Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to serve as the chairperson of Iarnród Éireann, having joined the board in August of last year. The pride I feel stems not only from my time with the company in the mid-2000s, which I will elaborate on shortly, but also from being the son of Irish parents from counties Limerick and Louth.

I will give the committee a brief overview of my career history to date and what I see as the priorities for myself and the board in the years ahead to support Iarnród Éireann to deliver for our customers and our stakeholders. My railway career spans three decades, having commenced as a British Rail graduate trainee. I have had the privilege of serving in leadership roles with Chiltern Railways, Iarnród Éireann itself, Deutsche Bahn and London Overground prior to serving as managing director of MTR Elizabeth line from 2014 to 2020 and as chief executive of MTR UK since October 2020.

To provide a little more detail on some of these roles, as I mentioned, I was general manager for the south and west region with Iarnród Éireann from 2004 to 2007. At this time we introduced new fleet on the mark IV Dublin to Cork service, expanded significantly to deliver an hourly service between the two cities and saw record passenger growth and improved punctuality performance. As managing director of London Overground rail operations from 2007 to 2012, I led the planning and delivery of services for London’s hosting of the Olympic Games in 2012, including the critical overground line to Stratford and the Olympic Park. I led MTR Elizabeth line as managing director since its inception in 2015, achieving first-place sector status for measurements as wide-ranging as on-time running, safety standards, workplace diversity and customer service. Since 2020, I have led all aspects of the UK portfolio of the Hong Kong-based MTR Corporation, bringing together railway operations, rail infrastructure and transport-focused property development.

As members will know from the chief executive’s attendance at the committee in recent weeks, we are at a time of unprecedented expansion, ambition and opportunity for Ireland’s railways. To that end, I pay tribute to my predecessor as chairperson, Mr. Frank Allen, whose term concluded in December.

Frank’s wealth of experience was invaluable during this critical time, and I am fortunate to have had the opportunity to work with him on the board during the final months of his tenure.

I also thank the entire Iarnród Éireann team, led by Jim Meade as chief executive, who have done a brilliant job in developing our investment programmes, in putting the delivery teams together, and critically in building a consensus with stakeholders for the type of development we need for rail to be the backbone of Ireland's sustainable transport network.

With that investment programme and consensus, I see my priorities as centring around a number of key themes as follows: the first is ensuring a focus on intelligent project and programme management. As we progress to the implementation phases of major programmes, such as DART+ and Cork area commuter rail, there will always be challenges and complexities with projects of this nature. Planning for and anticipating these are essential for successful programme delivery and to ensure we deliver on time and on budget. In particular, system integration must be a key area of focus. In the rail industry internationally, as we engage contractors across disciplines such as civil engineering, signalling and rolling stock, these systems must integrate to deliver a successful railway. Not only do we need to plan for this, but we must work collectively with suppliers, and bring them together, to ensure this is the case, and find solutions where needed.

Programme clarity is also critical: what are our goals, what are the outcomes, and how are we delivering to support sustainable development, to aid prosperity and social mobility is key. Too often, and this is an international phenomenon, we see in very large-scale projects an absence of clear goals and outcomes. This will always bring with it enormous risk to all aspects of the planning and delivery of a programme of works, and we will therefore maintain that clarity for Iarnród Éireann projects.

Finally, an intense focus on the customer proposition is key. Ultimately, from our current networks and services, to new trains, new infrastructure, new stations, coastal protection and development at Rosslare Europort, who is it all for? It is for our current and future customers. We must always ask the following: how do we deliver for them? What is our vision to make travelling by rail, moving goods by rail and using our port more attractive? How do we improve frequency to improve choice? How do we improve journey times to make switching to rail an easier decision? We have to remember that we are here to serve our customers and communities above all.

We also deliver as a team, and that extends to a range of critical stakeholders. Our workforce of more than 4,600 across all our businesses, and our trade union colleagues, are central to this. A tremendous achievement in recent years has been to bring a new spirit of co-operation to play, which has ensured a stability to give our regulators and funders a confidence that we can deliver. A seven-year pay and productivity agreement was achieved between Iarnród Éireann and our representative trade unions without recourse to the industrial relations machinery of the State. This did not happen in isolation. Iarnród Éireann offers its workforce not only a job, but the opportunity for a rewarding career, for progression. Our people strategy prioritises health and well-being and promotes equality and diversity. The support from across the political spectrum, from Government and the NTA gives confidence in turn to our people.

As chairperson, I will, of course, work closely with the Minister for Transport and his departmental officials, and ensure we align with strategies and public policy from Government and also from the Department, and from a regulatory perspective the National Transport Authority, NTA, as well as the Commission for Railway Regulation, in everything we do. As well as the current investment programme under the national development plan and Project Ireland 2040, the All-Island Strategic Rail Review will provide us with the type of framework and long-term vision essential to the development and delivery of strategic infrastructure.

I look forward to the opportunities and challenges ahead, and I am happy to take any questions the committee may have.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

I thank Mr. Murphy. He is very much appreciated. We all wish him well.

First on our roster is Senator Boylan. The Senator is not present so we will go to her party colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, for the first contribution. We have the time set at ten minutes and we will try as best we can to adhere to that.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank the witnesses and Mr. Murphy and wish him well in his new role. I thank him for attending today. I would appreciate it if he would outline the immediate priorities for the organisation as he sees it and then the challenges, and if he would touch on technological challenges and planning challenges.

He specifically referenced delivering major infrastructure. We have a particular experience here, some of which is an international experience. It is a challenge. I would appreciate it if he could bring anything to that in terms of how we improve in relation to that, and then also in terms of workforce and the cultural shift of modal shift and encouraging people onto rail. Finally, I would appreciate it if Mr. Murphy would outline his own experience and the potential he sees for rail for freight.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I will do my best to cover all those points. Mr. Kenny will assist me if I miss any and I will come back to them.

Perhaps I may start with the Deputy's last point because it is the most important point, which is the modal shift for the workforce and the opportunities for freight. Of course, rail is inherently the most sustainable form of transport and there is an overwhelming imperative for more passengers on rail, but also more freight to move from road to rail. The series of strategic place, which are very well thought through and far-reaching, that have been produced by Iarnród Éireann are doing exactly the right thing. It is an incredibly exciting time but it is also very reassuring to see that the right projects have been identified to stimulate modal shift from passengers and also for freight. That may sound an obvious point to make but I have been around plenty of projects where the projects that have been chosen are not necessarily the right projects and not necessarily the priority. I do not underestimate how important that is. The right projects have been chosen.

I mentioned some of the challenges based on my experience of projects. I have always been around major projects in rail, one way or the other. That focus on the customer outcomes, whether it be freight or whether it be rail passengers, and this point may sound obvious, can be lost, as I have seen in major projects. When in the middle of the intensity associated with trying to build the infrastructure and integrate systems, for example, which is its own challenge, it is quite interesting. It is a form of human behaviour that the focus on the outcome - why we started to do this in the first place - can get lost. There are some high-profile examples of that. That is why it is very important and it is described in different projects. Sometimes people talk about the shadow operator or the operational controlling mind to ensure the operator, because the operator is always closest to the customer, whether it is freight or passenger, is always at the heart of the projects. We are always going back and checking that what we are delivering is true to our original concept. In this case, looking at the portfolio of projects Iarnród Éireann has laid out, they are exactly the right things. We have just got to stay true to that.

The technical complexities will be significant. The plan is very ambitious. We are building new railways. The combination of civil engineering to build those railways, the signalling systems, for example, and integrating that system with the new trains that are coming are all key interfaces that will need managing. Our selection of our partners - I would call them partners rather than suppliers - will be critical so that they are people who share our vision and ambition for what we want to do for Ireland's railways, and having beyond that intelligent procurement, how we then act as the system integrator. We have been talking only today, in Connolly Station, about the challenges of integration and we are quite clear that Iarnród Éireann has be the heart of this and has to be the system integrator but we also have to understand whether we are ready to do that and how do we expand to be ready to do that. System integration and the focus on the customer outcomes are absolutely important.

The third challenge is a focus on programmes. I apologise because some of this sounds very obvious but having been around big projects, I have seen some not go particularly well. At any point in time, when we set out on these multiyear programmes, they are very complex. In the middle of that, knowing exactly where we are, how much of our scope we are actually through and where we are financially is so important, and quite often I have found it is not as obvious to identify that. We will be looking to use the very best tools and, of course, encourage a spirit of transparency throughout. This is a cultural point but in big projects, when things get very difficult culturally, one can see that people get worried about sharing challenges or bad news. It is actually more important than ever that they do share those things.

The final point I would make - apologies, this will also seem like an obvious point but I have found it to be true - is the support of the workforce when going through these major projects is the most important thing.

It is important to remember that, and I am very conscious of this, I do not run the railway. There are 4,600 people out there who run the railways – the drivers, the signallers, the station staff, the maintainers of the trains and infrastructure, and the controllers. Those people have to buy into this emotionally and practically because those are the people who will solve the problems we will inevitably get. They will allow us to launch the railway.

I am sorry if I missed any key points.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I thank Mr. Murphy for that; it is welcome to hear. He is obviously experienced in the field and in major infrastructure development. In fairness, there is an ambitious plan. We have raised with the CEO issues of funding and so on, but from Iarnród Éireann's perspective, it can control what it can control and it needs to be ready when the opportunities present themselves.

I will not let the opportunity go without raising a project in my own area, which is the Navan railway line. It is a project we are ambitious for and it ticks all the boxes. Anytime I see anybody transport related, specifically rail related, I want to raise that.

I wish Mr. Murphy well in the role. It is an important time. The type of ambition that Irish Rail has extends beyond the lifetime of any individual Government. Within the transport space, it needs to be supported. It has the potential to deliver significant benefits for communities and the economy. I wish him well in the role.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I welcome Mr. Murphy and thank him for taking on the onerous task of chairing a State board. If we reflect on what is happening on some other boards, it can be an onerous task. He is clearly not doing it for the money. He has the skill set, knowledge, experience and wherewithal to add significantly to the board and that is very welcome.

It was reflected by others that because the nature of investment in rail generally falls outside the standard cycle of elections, we probably do not focus on it enough. I will be a little bit parochial in a minute but we still need to think about the big picture. I am often taken by decisions that were taken in the late 1980s, where we had a decision to either mothball the railways or invest. The then Minister, Mary O’Rourke, took the decision to invest, not for political purposes but because it was the right thing to do. The whole dynamic has changed with the advent of climate change and the necessity to decarbonise our transport sector and get more people onto public transport. It is now a dynamic sphere where money is not an issue. Perhaps the difficulty is trying to spend the money at the rate it is coming. We regularly hear from Mr. Kenny and Mr. Meade, the CEO. They come before the committee regularly to outline their strategic plans, and we are all in unison with that.

What more does Mr. Murphy think the Government should do to allow him to deliver on that strategic objective? Could he update us? This may be technical and something he will need to reflect on, but I am sure he will provide it again. What is the status of the ticket integration programme? It is a big project. It is happening and, obviously, the sooner the better. Can Mr. Murphy share anything with us on that? Being parochial – I am sure Deputy Crowe will also reflect on this – there are a few stations we would like to see opened, one in particular in Crusheen, which has been hanging around for quite a few electoral cycles. We have not made false promises on it but it is an objective to see Crusheen station open. There are some other stations that are actively part of the metropolitan plan in the Limerick area in and around south-east Clare. When might we expect to see those stations opened?

Mr. Steve Murphy

I will address the Senator’s first question, which is fundamental. To paraphrase, what more could Government do? The partnership that has been in place with Government was a huge attraction for me to take this job because it is what I would describe as almost a perfect partnership between Government and Iarnród Éireann. All credit to both sides because we would not have arrived at such an intelligent, well thought through, joined-up strategic plan without that partnership. My first reaction is to preserve that which is so precious because, as we all know, that is not always the case. That is a quite a precious thing and I would look to preserve it. I am not sure we are necessarily asking for much more from Government other than the superb partnership.

Referring back to my experience with projects, the reality is these are big, ambitious projects that will change mobility, prosperity and potential for people forever going forward. These are big prizes. However, as we go after those prizes, we will hit technical challenges and we will have problems; it is inevitable in all projects. The partnership will then get tested in a different way. We have had a superb partnership to arrive and decide what the objectives should be and have made some excellent choices. The partnership will get tested in a different way as we deal with those challenges. As much as I need to encourage an environment within Iarnród Éireann - which is already there but hopefully I can supplement it – of transparency. What are the challenges and how are we dealing with them? We will also need that in partnership with Government because we will have those challenges. Preserving the partnership is my number one priority.

On new stations and ticket integration, I will come back after I get a full answer on Crusheen in particular. I had the opportunity to travel in Cork yesterday and we travelled the route of the proposed Cork metro, which is developing very well as a project. The number of new stations there can be seen. It was exciting to see all the potential opportunities there and how much mobility will increase in the wider Cork area as a result of that. The more of that we can do, the better.

On ticket integration, again, I will come back with the detailed plans. I absolutely support the philosophy. This is true not just in Ireland but in most countries I have seen. I have not seen anyone who is cracked it that well except perhaps parts of Asia. Generally speaking, ticketing is a form of friction for customers. They are a form of barrier that makes it difficult to use. We create doubts in our customers’ mind about what the best value for money is and whether they have the appropriate ticket. I could not agree more about removing those barriers. I have always striven to do that in my career. I note that is the direction of travel from Mr. Meade and the team; that is what they are trying to do. We will come back with the detailed plans on that.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I wish to put on record my thanks and I presume the thanks of the committee to Frank Allen for the work he has done. I am on this committee for more than 20 years. I recall a time when Mr. Allen was a regular visitor to us under the chairmanship of Eoin Ryan at the time, when the Luas was in its infancy. He was the chief of executive of the then Rail Procurement Agency. He was very giving of his time. He met regularly here with small shopkeepers who were impacted by the construction works at the time. He always put the case strongly that these were things that had to be endured but the game was worth the candle in the long run. It is a testament to him and what he has achieved in his career when we see the Luas as it has expanded and grown. He was one of those great public servants and he deserves credit from us.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I quite agree.

Senator Timmy Dooley

Hopefully we will be able to reflect on Mr. Murphy’s time at a later stage and give him the same adulation.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I very much hope so. He is a tough act to follow. Mr. Allen was a great chairman and great to work with.

Senator Timmy Dooley

I thank Mr. Murphy for taking on the role.

Deputy Brian Leddin

I thank those who have allowed me to go ahead of them. I will be speaking in the Dáil shortly.

I take the opportunity to echo Senator Dooley’s words of praise for outgoing chair Frank Allen, who has overseen a turning of the tide for rail in this country. That tide was going in the wrong direction since the 1960s and now it is going in the right direction for many decades to come because of his work, and I am sure Mr. Murphy will continue that good work. That tide will go in the right direction for many decades into this century. The Ireland we develop in this century will be built around rail infrastructure.

I thank Mr. Murphy for taking up the role.

We are very happy that a person of his calibre and experience has opted to step into the role that was vacated by Mr. Allen at Christmas time. Mr. Murphy's CV is without compare so it is a real honour for Ireland to have him in that seat now.

As much as I like trains, for me, rail is about developing the country, and developing it in a way that works efficiently and that is also sustainable. As Mr. Murphy knows, we are ahead of the national planning framework target for population growth, which is to have 1 million more people in this country by 2040. The question for this Government and future governments is where those people will live and, to a great degree, rail answers that question. If we want to reduce our carbon emissions and create a better society, then it makes sense to have those 1 million extra people living near efficient, high-capacity transport nodes, in other words, train stations.

I am heartened to learn that Mr. Murphy has Limerick connections, and the chief executive nearly has Limerick connections because he is a Clare man. We have a very similar vision for rail in the mid-west, and that vision is very much about a growing and thriving region. The best and fastest way for it to grow is to build out the infrastructure and to open up land that is otherwise well-serviced for development. We have excellent infrastructure in the mid-west between Shannon Airport and Shannon Foynes Port, south of the estuary, with the city of Limerick between the two. There is a very ambitious strategy, the Limerick Shannon metropolitan area transport strategy, LSMATS, which links Shannon Airport with Foynes Port through Limerick city. It rankles with me a little when we talk about Cork commuter rail. It is almost as if Cork is getting the attention and investment because Cork sees itself as the second city. The real counterweight to the Dublin-east coast economic region should be and will be the mid-west if the LSMATS is developed.

As chair of the board, Mr. Murphy has an opportunity to take that strategic view and to think of rail in the context of land development and population growth. Mr. Meade, as chief executive officer, has done excellent work in developing the strategic rail review but his role is more the day-to-day operations and making Irish Rail work, and, as a frequent user of Irish rail, I believe it works exceptionally well. I would like to impress upon Mr. Murphy the importance of the LSMATS, which is really about linking the airport through to Limerick city and out to the suburbs of Moyross, Ballysimon, Lisnagry, where there is great potential, Dooradoyle, Mungret, Patrickswell, Adare, Askeaton and, of course, Foynes itself.

Mr. Murphy should know there is a historic election coming up in Limerick in June for the first directly elected mayor. It affords not just the city and county but the mid-west region an opportunity to advocate for this vision. I should declare my interest as I am a candidate in that election but I am not saying this to platform myself. A number of candidates will hold this view and this vision for the mid-west. I believe that office is going to be very significant in representing that vision and advocating for it on the national stage. I expect that the mayor - I hope it is me but whoever it will be - will engage with Mr. Murphy, the board and the Minister for Transport of the day about accelerating that ambition and infrastructure as quickly as possible.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I thank the Deputy for his very supportive comments, which are much appreciated. Again, there are a number of key themes. To go back to what I see as a very well-balanced strategic plan, while there are very exciting plans for what the railway wants to do in expanding the DART commuter network and expanding in Cork, there are equally good and exciting plans for Limerick and all of the major cities, the western rail corridor and for freight, to name but a few and there are many more. When I look at the plan, it is almost a struggle to think of what the team have not thought of. Even beyond the things that are formally committed to in the plan, there are further ideas in the pipeline. I am very encouraged that it is a balanced plan and it is a genuinely all-island strategic plan, which is one of its real strengths.

To pick up on a number of key themes mentioned by the Deputy, which I would link back to social mobility opportunities and the creation of prosperity, as well as what the railway can do to hit our climate change and carbon reduction targets, I might go back to the company that I have worked for during the past 17 years, MTR. MTR does what it says on the tin and if committee members do not know, the initials stand for Mass Transit Railway. It was created in the late 1970s as an answer to the fact that the economic miracle of Hong Kong was literally grinding to a halt due to the huge congestion. The city did not have a metro and everything was road-based, not to mention what that was doing to the environment at that point. A solution was devised that I still think is one of the best models for railways globally, and that was to start building metro railways but, at the same time as building the metros, a deciding factor was how they were planning the development for both industry and residential use. It was an early and key example of transport-led development, which was incredibly powerful and created a company that I then aspired to join. I had not seen a railway that was so joined-up before I joined MTR 17 years ago. An interesting by-product is that it actually produced a lot of its own income for investment so there is not a complete dependence on government because it develops property above its railways.

In terms of what that has done to create economic prosperity and social mobility, it is an amazingly dramatic story. That is what I have been seeking to do elsewhere in my career, mainly in London through projects like the Elizabeth line. With that example, we see the transformation of opportunities for people from south-east London, for example, who are now connected to the West End with high-frequency rapid transit. It is dramatic. I am not sure I have seen a form of stimulus more effective than the railway in terms of what it does for social mobility, as well as for decarbonisation through the modal shift that we have talked about. Interestingly, there is what it also does for land values in the areas it creates, and I am not sure anything potentially increases land values better than good railway development. It is remarkable the number of strategic priorities that it addresses when we get railway development right.

I completely agree with the Deputy. I hope we can live up to the objectives that I am describing and that he has quite rightly asked for.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I congratulate Mr. Murphy on his appointment and wish him well. I compliment Mr. Allen, the outgoing chairman, on his commitment and diligence and the leadership that he gave to the company at a critical stage. It is fair to say that Mr. Murphy is taking over at a time the railways are on the national agenda and there is a recognition that the rail system can be improved and supplemented to improve mobility and generate economic activity in moving people from A to B. Mr. Murphy has arrived at a time there is major investment, and the oversight of that investment and ensuring there is value for money for that investment is of crucial importance. It is an exciting time for the rail networks. There is a recognition, and an acknowledgement that did not exist previously, that they have a major contribution to make to the growth of the economy.

Deputy Leddin mentioned Limerick. My constituency borders the Limerick one and we are looking for a commuter service between Nenagh and Limerick. There is a lot of congestion as many people in Nenagh and north Tipperary travel to the university in Limerick. There are many people working in Limerick and there is a lot of employment there, which benefits us in north Tipperary. We would like to see that commuter service. There is a huge demand for it to be enhanced, as well as the Ballybrophy line. Some improvements have been made to the speed of the carriages on them but there is scope for further improvement. I wish Mr. Murphy well, assure him of the committee's co-operation and look forward to his plans for the future.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I thank the Deputy for his support, which is appreciated. To pick up on Limerick, I am rapidly getting up to speed with what is an amazingly ambitious portfolio but I know there are very real and well thought through plans for creating an excellent and much-enhanced commuter network metro service in Limerick. We will provide the latest detail on where we are at with that but I know that plan exists and is being developed.

The Deputy's point on value for money on investments is a major strategic point. I am extremely conscious we are custodians for ensuring we achieve that. The best way to ensure that is by throughout the duration of a project, including in many cases multiyear projects to deliver the railways we are talking about, constantly checking the customer proposition. I may be in danger of sounding obvious but I have seen many times that when big projects get into the complexities, the original customer proposition can be lost. As long as people stayed true to that customer proposition, I have never known a project that is not ultimately successful.

We talked earlier of the Luas as an example. Although I was not directly involved, I have talked to Mr. Allen about it. Because they stayed true to the customer proposition and knew what that could do for mobility in Dublin, ultimately it was successful and got through various challenges during construction. The reverse is not true. When the customer proposition is lost and people get diverted, as happens in big projects, they not only have all the pain of getting through the project and all the challenges, but in the end it is a slightly underwhelming outcome. The best way to ensure value for money is by staying true to what are - I have seen them and gone through them with the team - some excellent customer propositions. It will not be straightforward to stick to them at times and we will have to be quite disciplined about it.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I welcome Mr. Murphy to the committee, join others in congratulating him on his job and agree with the comments on the leadership of Mr. Frank Allen. A couple of months ago we had Mr. Peter Strachan, chair of the NTA, in here. He has, as does Mr. Murphy, much worldwide experience on large infrastructural projects. I asked him of the comparison with other countries he has worked in. We hear a lot of criticism of how long a large infrastructural project can take. Does Mr. Murphy consider Ireland different in that regard or is it similar around the world? Is there something the Government could do to speed up the processes while delivering, keeping a focus on what the project is and not allowing too much project creep, which TDs are probably responsible for sometimes?

Mr. Steve Murphy

It is a very good question and I am trying to think of a concise answer. There are many similarities and many of the challenges we will face are challenges all big projects have in different ways around the world. One of the useful things we can do is learn from that. I will bring my experience but there is a lot of experience in the business that we will draw on.

There are important differences and some are distinct benefits for Iarnród Éireann. We have an integrated railway and that is not a given. Earlier today, I sat around the table with every discipline representing the railway. That is not necessarily common around the world. We have that in-house capability. We have an excellent 4,600 employees and an excellent executive team. All of those things are strengths. Sometimes when embarking on projects, you do not have that level of expertise or stability.

Those are definite positives but no one has done something of this scale in Ireland before, in terms of the project's scope. We recognise that we have to develop our organisational capability significantly to draw on the expertise we have and attract new skills and capabilities. It is a mix. To take a specific example, the people who provide signalling or civil engineering for big projects are global players. We have to work with them as key partners. One thing we must avoid is a supplier-contractor relationship. That will not see success on the project. I am keen to bring that philosophy. There are distinct advantages but we have to develop dramatically the sort of projects we are setting out to do.

Deputy Steven Matthews

I often hear people say the different stages of a project's development could be truncated or shortened - backwards and forwards and final design - but my experience is when we try to do that too quickly, we end up with a project that is not quite ready or is not fit for purpose. We need to balance public spending and speed of delivery.

I am glad Mr. Murphy mentioned the workforce. Many people do not realise much of the workforce is out through the night working on and maintaining the rail line in all kinds of weather and seasons. I have some experience of the workforce in Irish Rail. I have seen it change from the late 1980s, when there were difficulties, staff on protective notice, etc., to an industry that is attracting people.

Because of the role railway has to play in climate change, it is not just an alternative form of transport; it is key to delivering our very challenging transport emissions targets. It is a great strength that the railway can be part of that, as can Mr. Murphy's colleagues in the bus services. We have seen great ambition. I have never heard railways spoken about so much as in the past three years.

As part of the climate challenge, we had the all-island strategic rail review, which brought into focus what we could deliver. We can look at the 1907 map of what was there. We will never achieve that but we will get closer to it. One of the most positive things was when we were negotiating the programme for Government and a commitment was made to a 2:1 ratio in the transport spend on public transport over new roads. It is critical for Irish Rail or any of the bus services to know consistency of funding is coming down the line. Because these projects take so long to design and implement, it needs to know it will have longevity. For any future government, that 2:1 commitment is key to delivering on our ambition and on the All-Island Strategic Rail Review. It is pretty important for a big industry.

Mr. Steve Murphy

Absolutely. It is an incredibly enlightened policy and Ireland will get the benefits of that policy for many generations to come. It is not commonplace elsewhere so is a key strength. It is essential if we want to achieve modal shift, and we have to achieve it, as I think everyone understands. I am a huge supporter of the political direction, and aligning with what is a very capable company is superb.

Picking up on another point the Deputy mentioned, I will take the opportunity to reinforce that I have been over 30 years in the railway and cannot overemphasise the importance of the work led by the executive team to bring with it the entire railway and the 4,600 people who run it. A railway whose front-line people are not directly behind the strategic plan will achieve nothing. I pay tribute to the executive team who achieved that. It is not necessarily commonplace everywhere I have worked so it is a real achievement and one we must guard jealously.

Deputy Steven Matthews

Absolutely. Bringing people in and the mentoring and training programme that was spoken about are also important.

It is indicative of a well-run organisation if it can bring staff in at the start, train them, and they end up working there throughout their life, from an apprenticeship right up to the very highest levels.

Mr. Murphy mentioned freight earlier. I have high ambitions for freight in Ireland. It is something that really fell off. We are down to less than 1% of freight being transported by rail. Are track access charges creating a difficulty? I spoke to somebody about this before and how we compare to other countries that have a higher freight penetration. Is it something that needs to be assessed? Does the Government need to be involved in that?

Mr. Steve Murphy

That is a very good question. It is one on which I will have to get back to the Deputy with the answer. He is right that the approach to track access charges is really important. Understanding where we sit with that at the moment would be the first point for me as I go about familiarising myself with where we are at.

In terms of potential for freight and for passengers, it is the case that our share of the market for both passengers and freight is much lower than our European counterparts. We can get to the levels we aspire to with this strategic plan. Even if there was not the dramatic population growth we see in Ireland at the moment, just getting the market share that rail should have we will see dramatic growth for the foreseeable period. It is a very exciting time.

In terms of freight's interplay with passenger services, I refer to one of the things we sought to change earlier in my career. The main freight route in the UK actually goes through the heart of London. It is known as the North London Line. Early in my career, with the creation of the London Overground we had an ambition to create a high frequency metro service alongside freight on that same route. We had to come up with some novel solutions, but what we actually found is that freight services and a high frequency metro service could coexist with very reliable services if they are planned in the right way. We had to come up with some new planning solutions. One of the things I am keen to dispel is that a mixed traffic railway of passenger and freight cannot work. One occasionally hears that but it is not true. We will need to find those creative solutions. Without question, there is huge potential for freight and for passenger growth.

Deputy Steven Matthews

This is a subject I always try to bring up when Mr. Meade or Mr. Kenny are before us. It is the amount of electrification that we have in the country. We have quite a low level of electrification compared to many other countries. We have seen the advancement in battery electric trains, for example, where one does not need to erect all the overheads and structures. We have seen it work in other countries. Battery electric trains are on order. Having long sight of dependable funding allows Iarnród Éireann to place those forward orders and set up those designs because it is obviously relatively bespoke to our gauge over here. We are all looking forward to seeing more battery electric trains. The InterCity Railcar, ICR, fleet that arrived last year is up and running now. It is a great design and it is really good to see.

I probably have a lot more questions but my time is up at this stage. I thank Mr. Murphy for his attendance. I acknowledge that Irish Rail has always been very willing to attend the committee here and to answer all the questions. As TDs and public representatives, we appreciate that. I wish him very well in his role.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Deputy Matthews can come in again in the next round. We will go around again.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

First, I join in the congratulations to Mr. Murphy. I thank his predecessor for the work that has been done. I understand that Mr. Murphy was with Iarnród Éireann previously.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I was.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am interested to hear his reaction to what he left and what he came back to, particularly in terms of growth. In particular, I am interested in his reaction to the growth in what is called "intercity" rail, which I think is a misnomer. The motorways are also called "interurban" routes. As somebody who does not live in an urban area, I use the motorway as much as anybody, but it is more correct to refer to "interregional" routes. The trains are interregional trains because they stop at intermediate stops all over the place. If they did not, passenger numbers would be a lot lower. They are misnamed by the Government. It is something people who do not live in the big urban conurbations but use all of these services need to correct again and again.

In terms of lines from Dublin to Galway, Limerick, and Cork, is the growth of intercity rail parallel to what is happening everywhere else, or is it something to do with our settlement pattern and the fact that people are actually using it for three-day commuting for new lifestyles so that we do not all have to go to the cities to live and work? People work from home some days but not all. Is that the explanation for the big growth in the intercity services and the smaller growth after Covid for the DART lines and inner urban transport? That is something we need to look at and ask why it is happening.

A previous speaker said that we need to make sure everyone lives where the transport is located. My view is that bus and rail should be integrated and that we need to bring the transport to people wherever they want it and not be prescriptive about where people should live. It is a personal choice and based on personal circumstances. For too long we planned for people around transport rather than transport around people.

That leads me to my next question. Is Mr. Murphy's vision of a national rail network that is as comprehensive as possible and serving all regions or one just concentrated around the greater Dublin region and the Dublin to Cork line?

There are two final issues I would like to tease out. As it stands, Iarnród Éireann has assets. We still have Victorian views on some lines rather than the kind of frequency needed in the modern world. Do either of the witnesses have a view on the kind of minimum return service on a line that would be needed every day to really use the asset well? My belief is that it is about ten to start with and that it would build from there by demand. Otherwise, it would be underutilising the asset. There are barriers in terms of passing loops and so on but that is a technical issue to be overcome and it is not very expensive. I am interested in the ideas of the witnesses about the relationship.

The second part of that question is whether we have underestimated the potential of regional rail, given the success of the Galway to Limerick line, in particular the part of it where we were told there would never be passengers. It is my belief that we would get the same result in Deputy Lowry's constituency between Ballybrophy and Limerick if Iarnród Éireann put ten trains each way a day. It would suddenly start picking up commuters all over the place. Have we underestimated the potential of these lines if we put in a good service? The Galway to Limerick line has 4.5 services but the last service going home stops for an hour and a half. Currently, the services are fairly full and all we can do is speculate about the situation if there were ten services. Have we traditionally underestimated the return we would get for investment in terms of usage?

My final point is that we are always talking about the cost of capital projects. I do not know if Deputy Lowry is here longer than I am but we are here a lot longer than most. In my office I have a set of Government Estimates going back to 2000; I wish I had the ones going back to 1997 but I did not keep them. I have the Revised Estimates. It is a bit of fun when I pull them out to look at the capital expenditure, let us say in 2000 or in 2007, 2008 or 2009 when everyone was giving out that we were overspending on motorways and they were running over budget. They look awfully cheap by today's prices. Does Mr. Murphy agree that the biggest inflater of capital projects is time delay?

Mr. Steve Murphy

Yes.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

We put back the projects because we are afraid. We lacked the courage to spend the money and get on with it. All capital projects look dear in the present and look very cheap in hindsight, even within ten years, not to mind 20 years.

These are 100-year assets. I know I have asked a lot of questions.

Mr. Steve Murphy

They are very good ones and I will do my best to get through them. I will start with the Deputy's last point, which was a very interesting one. He is absolutely right about the global point experience of projects. If the strategic thinking has been done correctly and upfront, and the right project has been identified that will do all the things that are wanted in terms of social mobility, growth and so on, the longer it is delayed, the worse value for money is generated. The other truism that tends to play out is that when a project is opened that is well thought through, it outstrips everyone's estimates of passenger usage. That is what tends to happen on a project that has been well thought through. What we have with Iarnród Éireann are some very well thought through projects. I think they are in that category.

The Deputy asked about my experience in Iarnród Éireann between 2004 and 2007. In many respects, that was probably the best and most important part of my career. I was able to come from a railway in the UK which had ceased to be an integrated railway. I was a train operator and I understood that part of it but I had the experience of coming to Ireland to learn about infrastructure and running stock maintenance, and how all of that integrated into one railway. It was an incredibly important period. Going forward, we will have a major asset because while things have changed, we still have that integration in business. One of the key things I was proudest during my time with Iarnród Éireann then was putting together a business case for an hourly Dublin to Cork service. I remember there was a fair bit of scepticism as to whether that would generate the demand to justify what was around or about a doubling in service. Fortunately, I got support and we did it, largely thanks to one of my predecessors, Mr. Phil Gaffney, who was on the board then and who was the chairman before Mr. Frank Allen. The performance of that service has outstripped what people thought it would do when we put it together 20 years ago. That is illustrative of the potential for good projects to drive better-than-expected passenger volumes.

I completely agree with what the Deputy said about a lack of frequency. I talked about friction points, including complicated ticketing structures. There are reasons people do not use railways. Recourse to a timetable and big gaps in timetables are other friction points. As the Deputy said, there are sometimes operational restrictions on what we can do but wherever possible, sweating the asset and getting the best use of it reduces those friction points. When I was in Cork yesterday, I heard about the ambitions to continually improve frequency on the Cork metropolitan line, which shows that thinking is very much embedded. That is absolutely right.

The Deputy made another relevant point with which I completely agree. It was the point about naming but there is a more profound point underneath that. There are very few trains that are just one thing and one thing only. The Deputy mentioned the branding of an intercity train and we talk about intercity trains only. In truth, most trains do the variety of jobs the Deputy mentioned within the one trip. They are partly intercity, partly perform a regional function and often also perform a commuting function. The Deputy is absolutely right and there is a more profound point there. Making sure that project scopes and definitions have catered for all those markets will encourage the best possible growth. That is very true.

The Deputy also raised a point about international comparators and where Ireland sits in those comparisons. To the extent I am aware of those, I have a couple of observations. The recovery of the railway in Ireland post Covid has been very strong. It compares very well to international benchmarks. Some of the patterns are quite similar to what we have seen internationally. Almost across the globe, there has been reduced five-day commuting and slightly more homeworking. Interestingly, it seems that now, some time after the pandemic, many organisations and businesses have realised that the complete and wholesale move to homeworking has been very damaging in other ways. A rebalancing and settling is under way. The Deputy rightly mentioned three or four days a week. Where Irish Rail sits in terms of the commuter market recovering is strong by international comparison. I was looking at the statistics only yesterday and we are generally back at pre-Covid levels across our markets, with very clear trajectories to exceed those levels in quite short order. That is a very strong international comparator.

Irish Rail and many international railways have seen an interesting change in the leisure market. There has been a much stronger leisure market post Covid, which is very interesting and was anticipated by nobody. We can see that in Ireland and it creates new markets and new demand, and a need for a different approach to train planning and an increase in services where previously we would not have thought we needed it. That is very interesting. I recall early in the pandemic that various commentators were asking if it was going to reset rail travel forever and whether there would be a different future whereby rail travel was less important. That theory has been completely disproved. What we have seen from the best-run railways around the world has been a strong recovery to pre-Covid levels. Depending on the forecasts, most international railways are planning dramatic expansion, going forward. If that is put in the context of Irish Rail, where our market share by international comparators is still relatively low, there is a further opportunity for us to go after. I am very ambitious for the growth potential. I have probably only answered some of the very pertinent questions asked by the Deputy.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

If Deputy Dillon will give us a little leeway, Deputy Lowry will be very economical with his time. He only wants a couple of minutes to make a brief intervention before we go to the Deputy.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Iarnród Éireann has the investment and the asset is there. It is a question of supplementing and upgrading what it has. The key to this is demand, which is led by value. As Deputy Ó Cuív said, people with a train in their areas will respond when there is a service with frequency and when the timetable suits people who are coming and going to work or college and suits the customer. Reliability is also a consideration. What I noticed during the pandemic was that when the Government introduced the reduction in fares, there was considerable demand. That was true even after the pandemic while those reduced fares remained. It is important in planning that we do not end up in a position where Iarnród Éireann has had all of this investment, it is looking for a return on it and the consumer is penalised. There must be a level of investment but we do not want to put a penalty on the consumer. The pricing of tickets is absolutely essential. People will respond to a fair and adequate price. For many years, rail tickets were too expensive and as a result, people took other options. In all of the company's strategy, it needs to consider the consumer and the price of tickets.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I quite agree. In our business case, the return on the investment, which we are in the fortunate position of being able to make, will be shown through demand more than it will through pricing. That is absolutely the case and I agree with the Deputy's point. It would be perverse to inhibit demand through the wrong pricing policy. That is exactly right.

I also agree with what he said about the balance between frequency and reliability. In railways in various places, sometimes we get into what I would describe as "false frequency", which is frequency that is not reliable. It is all very well publishing an improved timetable but if it cannot be delivered to high levels of reliability, it should not have started in the first place. What we have to do with our strategy, and the clear and continued operational focus on what we are delivering for customers, is to ensure that whatever we do is going to be highly reliable while we also make it more frequent, faster and easier to use.

Deputy Alan Dillon

I welcome Mr. Murphy and wish him the very best of luck in his new role. We all recognise his vast experience and contribution to the rail industry. It is fantastic that he has taken up this position. He has a deep understanding of the railway system and his commitment to the industry is certainly recognised. He has the reputation of being a good railway man, which is important.

I will pick up from where Deputies Ó Cuív and Lowry left off. As rural TDs, central to our representation is the importance of the vision around balanced regional development and an emphasis on connectivity and ensuring a robust, effective and all-inclusive transport network. Rail is central to that. The All-Island Strategic Rail Review has been published, although it was delayed, and we hope it will be approved shortly.

The western rail corridor is a pillar in that. I ask Mr. Murphy to outline his thoughts and plans for this route. How does he envisage the western rail corridor fitting into the broader rail network, possibly as a rail freight line and subsequently a passenger line? As Deputy Ó Cuív said, we need to reflect on the success of the Galway to Limerick line and the passenger numbers it has achieved. There is a great opportunity for the west and north west with the restoration of the western rail corridor.

I ask Mr. Murphy to outline his thoughts on the protection and maintenance of existing rail lines. We are talking about the Claremorris to Athenry section and also north of Claremorris up to Sligo. It is important not to forget that there is an existing rail line there that has longevity. Effectively it is part of the network and it can certainly be utilised.

Mr. Steve Murphy

We were talking earlier within Iarnród Éireann about the western rail corridor. When I was here between 2004 and 2007, the first section between Limerick and Galway was in the planning stage. At the time I recall people were saying it would not attract the levels of demand that would justify it. It is now a bit of a theme that if we build the railway to a good specification and run a reliable service, we get the demand. To take the Deputy's point, I am sure that will also prove to be true of the other sections of the western rail corridor. Of course, that is a key element of the plan. As the Deputy mentioned, not only will the western rail corridor be a crucial strategic corridor, but as we have seen with the first section, passenger potential could be replicated and would be replicated in my view. Even beyond that as a strategic point, while we may do some very good things, such as creating some good city metros and having a good radial plan, if we do not create the western rail corridor, we will not have a national rail plan, a national mobility, and therefore it would be half a plan. The existing plans and thinking have considered all of this and that is why I see it as a very balanced plan. We also need to make sure that we develop these things at the right pace and we keep moving towards that overall view of a national rail system that is a source of national pride as well as national prosperity. I completely agree with the Deputy's points.

Deputy Alan Dillon

Does Mr. Murphy believe the current actions align with the current ambition within Iarnród Éireann to deliver a network across all of Ireland? How do we ensure having the timeline for delivery that Deputy Matthews mentioned through the various strands within the board that Mr. Murphy will oversee - the capital investment advisory group, the service delivery advisory group and the strategy advisory group? There are a lot of groups there. I am sure it is an onerous task to get that through the approval process with other competing projects. He will need to navigate through that working with the Minister and the Government of the day. How does he plan to put all this together?

Mr. Steve Murphy

That is another very good question. I will try to answer it succinctly. This morning, I joined, as a guest, the infrastructure advisory group. That was looking at the national portfolio of projects and not just one or two. It had a very full agenda. To answer the Deputy's question on the vision within Iarnród Éireann, one of the reasons I was so attracted to return is having a national plan. It is not just a specific sequence of high-profile projects at all; it is a national plan. As we get into project delivery, which is the phase I am coming in to assist with, will see opportunities to progress those plans. For technical reasons apart from everything else, all of the projects will move at slightly different paces. We can be fleet of foot to see where opportunities exist. We will get chances to reprioritise those so that we do not lose traction. If we get too focused on some of the biggest projects, we will lose the opportunity to prioritise others.

The Deputy's question is very good. I cannot give an absolutely clear answer to it other than to say that the belief in the business is that the national plan is not about specific plans. I will be very keen that we stay agile and spot the opportunities to prioritise when those opportunities come up. I have always seen that in projects because for a combination of reasons they will move at slightly different paces.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

I join other members in congratulating Mr. Murphy and I wish him the very best of luck in his new role. I have often praised the Irish Rail chief executive, Mr. Meade. At a recent meeting, I pointed out that he has been through all the ranks of the Irish Rail organisation. It is great to see from Mr. Murphy's résumé that he also has a huge amount of experience. Over the years, different chairs designate have appeared before the committee. While they are very invested in a sector, they do not necessarily bring that wealth of experience. We have often heard chair designates say that they will need to check something out and come back to us, but Mr. Murphy has held his ground for the past hour or so and we are very grateful.

My first question is a little bit out of left field. The Railway Preservation Society of Ireland does some fabulous work. Is it independent of Irish Rail? Does Irish Rail support it? Last summer the 131, a beautiful steam train built in 1901, came from Galway through Ennis and Cratloe and into Limerick. It was absolutely beautiful and a real treat. It showcased how these old trains can be preserved. It also showcased the very best of Irish Rail. It brought many people out. They were lining the level crossings on the way down, cheering on the train. Is it independent of Irish Rail? Does Irish Rail support it? Are there any plans to restore any old historic Irish trains and bring them into service again?

Mr. Steve Murphy

Those are very good questions. On my way into Cork station today I passed the old steam engine, which is part of the heritage. I remember the railway heritage society from my time here approximately 20 years ago. Subject to confirmation, I think it is independent but it has always been very well supported by Iarnród Éireann and I am sure that will continue. I think I am right that one of the previous chief executives, Mr. Dick Fearn, who appeared before this committee some years ago, is still very active and involved with it. He has told me I will be invited to come and see the preservation society myself, which I will be delighted to do. More generally, the celebration of railway heritage is very important. It is not just out of nostalgia, although they are wonderful to see, but the history of the railways shows how important they have been in shaping the country and the role they have played. That is very true for the role we envisage for the railways in the future. There are lessons from history there.

I return to a point the Acting Chair made that is very important and was touched upon earlier by other members, which is the human story behind the railway industry. We are in a period now which will be decades of really exciting project delivery on the railways. Earlier we mentioned the opportunity for young people to come and be part of that. In my career I have been extremely lucky to be able to get involved in major projects. Someone going through that and delivering things, leaves a legacy that remains forever with railways; it is an amazing thing. It is incredibly exciting for the graduates coming into the organisation. Iarnród Éireann has been very active in developing that scheme. What an exciting time it is for young people coming into the industry now. Not only will they learn so much, but they will also create things that will be a legacy for the country forever. It is an amazing opportunity.

The Acting Chair mentioned Mr. Jim Meade's journey as chief executive. It is inspirational to see somebody who has come in and worked their way right through the organisation from starting as a fitter in his case.

Those people examples to the new generation coming in are so important. I am aware that Mr. Jim Meade is already on this but attracting the best and the brightest into this is so important.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Absolutely. On a slight tangent, I had a lovely conversation with the Minister of State with responsibility for heritage, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, a few weeks ago when we got chatting about old Ford Cortina 1300 cc cars and he said to me that this is heritage, and that heritage is not all castles and ruined buildings. We have a mechanical heritage in Ireland as well and we need to mind it. I am glad that Iarnród Éireann is supporting the Railway Preservation Society of Ireland. Heritage is a broad brief and I am glad that Irish Rail is supporting it.

I came up on the 7:25 train this morning from Limerick. I love the train and I take it here on several days. It allows me to commute on Tuesdays, which is rare for a west of Ireland Deputy. The day works out that I can go home, attend meetings and see my family, which is good. I find, however, that the car parking is becoming an increasing issue in the Limerick station. I have also mentioned this to the chief executives. It is a lovely car park and there is nothing wrong with it. The flaw is that there are not enough spaces and while I ask that the pricing not be increased, the pricing there is so attractive it is cheaper than other car parks downtown in Limerick. On a given morning there is no problem getting a parking space in Limerick station from 5 a.m. until 8:30 a.m. and then people coming into the city for the day for work or for shopping will take up that car park because it is €3.50 for 24 hours. It is very cheap. The upshot is that a lot of people end up driving laps of the car park and eventually they have to exit and drive laps of city. I use it so often that I now realise there are problem times on many mornings when people will not get into that car park. I have also encountered people on the train - when we chat with other passengers - who have missed that morning train because they had not budgeted for this big drive around the city to look for a parking space. I believe the same thing is happening in Cork but I am less familiar with that. A parking space could be linked with a ticket. There should be some measure like this so we can siphon out those who are there to travel and those who are having a day shopping as there are plenty of other car parks in the city for them.

I will group my other few questions together. Train travel is very efficient. The timings are incredible and the train arrives right to the minute. It really is. The stops along the way are very punctual as well. The staff are always very courteous. There is a national debate about the DART and the Luas and safety on them. This does not happen very often but maybe once or twice in a year I might see something on a train carriage that is not very pleasant. It is a very hard space in which to report an incident. I am aware there is someone travelling on the train for this but it is not always as easy as to walk down four carriages, make a complaint and get it dealt with. It would be wonderful to have some kind of a text facility. The trains are stopping at stations along the way and while it is rare enough that someone causes bedlam on a train, there should be some facility to text discreetly ahead so that An Garda Síochána can be at the platform at another station to address that.

I also want to ask about the mid-west plan, as others have asked. The intercity service works so well but what is intended to happen over the next few years is really exciting, including the Shannon rail spur and the Limerick metropolitan study area. The Minister for Transport was sitting in Mr. Murphy's seat just a few weeks ago and he suggested that we are talking of just a few years for some of those stations to open up. This is what we all want to hear and yet we are not seeing stuff happening on the ground. Is that a realistic timeline? Is the rail spur into Shannon realistic? We would also love some detail on Cratloe Station. If the witnesses do not have that information today, I would love to see it afterwards.

The chief executive may be more familiar with my final point. Irish Rail still owns a corridor of land from the Watch House Cross in Limerick out towards Ardnacrusha power station. This was a legendary branch line that was used to build Ireland's first ever power station. There are beautiful photographs of trains going in and out there. The Disney film "Guns in the Heather" was made on that line in the 1960s. It is in my home parish and we are very proud of it. There is still some rail down there but it could not be used. If that corridor of land is still owned by Irish Rail or the ESB - I am not fully sure - is there any potential for doing something with that? If there are to be linked stations coming out of Limerick city into Clare is this an option? If it is not an option it would make a lovely greenway, although they may compete with Irish Rail's interests.

Mr. Steve Murphy

Again there are some great points there. I will do my best to cover those. On accessibility and car parking, this is a really relevant point. I was on the 7 o'clock service from Cork this morning and it was not entirely straightforward to find a car parking space because so many people are using the car park. Of course the very best thing we can do is find integrated transport solutions for access to the railway stations. It was mentioned earlier how can we work better to have cycle provision, buses and even walking routes to stations wherever we can. Ultimately making it easy, however the people get to stations, is so important. One of my first jobs many years ago was working for a company called Chiltern Railways. Almost our entire marketing plan, which proved to be very effective, was just making it very easy for everyone to get to the station. It sounds remarkably straightforward but stations are often not easy to get to because integrated transport is not quite as good as it should be or the car parking is not easy to use. An excellent point was made about the ticketing and how to get the car ticket, pay for the car parking, and whether it could be integrated with the rail ticket, which is being done elsewhere. That is a very good point and we will give the committee a full response on the ability to do that.

On the important point around reporting antisocial behaviour, in the greater Dublin area, customers have that ability to text. The question for me will be how we roll this out further. The railway may well have plans on that but we need to understand that. It is a customer requirement in today's environment.

On the detail of the plans for Limerick and the wider area, we should revert with the latest information on that. From my early involvement with the team I can say that those plans absolutely exist and are being actively pursued. They were part of a project update I saw only this morning. We will be very happy to share the detail of exactly where we are.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

A bit of information would be great. I thank Mr. Murphy again and I wish him well. Deputy Matthews will now come in a second time.

Deputy Steven Matthews

We can hear the level of ambition from Mr. Murphy on the delivery of stations, new trains, new services and new rail lines. I have always made the point that it is very difficult when previous Governments have not invested in public transport and there was always just a steady State-type of investment, to try then ramp up so quickly. It obviously takes a little bit of time to do it. I acknowledge the comment that if we build it, they will come. Generally they do but that is very hard to prove in financial and investment terms. Let us consider two projects; the reopening of the passenger line Connolly Station to Heuston Station, which was really successful, and the western rail corridor. I recall the commentary that said there would be nobody on it. At the start there were not many people using it but now it is really successful. It just shows that if we put on the trains and provide the frequency, it will happen. I do not know how Irish Rail is able to prove that crystal ball gazing but I really firmly believe that when we invest like that passengers do come and they do support it.

Aside from extending from Claremorris into the western rail corridor, I believe another very important part of that link is the Waterford-Wexford line so it gives that counterbalance to what we have on the east coast with whole western rail corridor right the way to Rosslare Port. When people talk about Irish Rail, they often forget that it is also the manager of the port down there and that this is a critical key piece of Irish infrastructure for the offshore renewable industry that is coming as well. In running trains Irish Rail is cutting emissions and giving people options. In developing Rosslare Port. Irish Rail is part of reducing our energy emissions as it facilitates the building of that. There is another project along the east coast. which is the east coast railway infrastructure protection project, ECRIPP. This is also a critical part of climate adaptation. We have these large infrastructure projects. Mr. Murphy mentioned that we have a very willing Government here and I believe that on any of those projects Irish Rail will find support in this room and in this Government for those projects.

I would fail in my duties if I did not mention County Wicklow and the DART extension to Wicklow town. When we deliver it over the next couple of years, we will look back and see it as one of those projects that proves if you build, it they will come. It is a growing town. The project is being looked at.

It is in design at the moment. I trust the capable hands of Mr. Murphy and his team to see that delivered in a timely manner.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I will pick up on those very interesting key themes. “Build it and they will come” is absolutely the case. I have shared that frustration sometimes: you know through experience that you have something that is going to be very successful, but how do you articulate that or turn it into a business case? Again, the strength of Iarnród Éireann is demonstrated by the amount of support it has had from the Government and it has been very effective at putting those business cases together. A lot of credit goes to my predecessor, Frank Allen, for his role in that.

What also helps us going forward is that, increasingly, we have a lot of these precedents because we have been active, although not as active as we will be going forward. There are some great examples and whether we talk about the western rail corridor, the general railway recovery post Covid or the Dublin-Cork hourly service, there is now the evidence that we have seen. More widely, internationally, as I said earlier, well thought-through transport development tends to exceed demand forecasts in almost all cases. I recently attended the opening of the Elizabeth line to its fullest extent, and that is outstripping all passenger forecasts. There are precedents and we have to make the most of those.

To pick up on the point about Rosslare, it is an amazing thing for a railway company to have that role in the development and expansion of the port, including with regard to offshore renewables. That is incredible. I have been talking to some of my old colleagues in the UK who are amazed that the railway has a proactive role like that. It is a real gem in the crown of the business. It is a fantastic thing to be involved with and it gives us this wider role, beyond our railway role, of what we are doing in the renewable energy space. I am a huge supporter.

As for DART expansion to Wicklow, again, we owe the committee an update on that and we will provide the very latest on that project.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Thank you. As no other members are offering online, we are pretty much done, except to ask Mr. Murphy who will win the Six Nations game on Saturday and who he is supporting. We should have asked that at the beginning before we rubber-stamped his candidacy.

Mr. Steve Murphy

I will just say that as the son of a Limerick man, it was quite clear early on who I was supporting, whether it was Munster or Ireland. I will be looking for an Ireland victory this weekend.

An Cathaoirleach Gníomhach (Deputy Cathal Crowe)

Well answered. That concludes today's meeting. I thank Mr. Murphy for attending the committee today with his colleagues from Irish Rail to discuss this important matter.

The next meeting of the joint committee will be a private meeting taking place on Microsoft Teams at 12.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 March 2024.

The joint committee adjourned at 3.02 p.m. until 1.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 20 March 2024.