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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Tuesday, 25 Jul 1933

Vol. 17 No. 8

Damage to Property (Compensation) (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1933—Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That this Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to enable persons whose property may have been damaged or who may have sustained losses due to damage to property from the period on or after 24th April, 1916, up to 12th May, 1923, and who, for one reason or another have been excluded from the scope of the existing Damage to Property (Compensation) Acts. I shall deal with Section 2 first, as it covers most of the matters concerned. It will be seen that Section 2 (1) (a) states:

"All injuries to property, being a building or chattels in or about a building, which occurred in Saorstát Eireann on or after the 24th day of April, 1916, and before the 21st day of January, 1919, and which were occasioned by acts of the British military or police authorities (whether such authorities were or were not acting or purporting to act under martial law) and which were sustained in one or other of the following circumstances, that is to say, while such building was being defended in arms by any person ordinarily resident therein against such authorities or while any such person was under arrest or was endeavouring to resist arrest by such authorities."

That is an extension of the existing law. It covers a period which has not been dealt with hitherto under Damage to Property (Compensation) Acts prior to the proclamation of the First Dáil and subsequent to the outbreak of the insurrection in 1916. It will cover also any losses that may have been sustained in the circumstances covered by the section during the anti-conscription period and during the period before the resistance to the British régime was regularised by the constitution of the Dáil. It is rather remarkable that that period, which was very significant, has hitherto not been dealt with by the Damage to Property (Compensation) Acts, and it was felt that, as this Bill, so to speak, was winding up and liquidating all claims and amending very serious deficiencies in the existing law, that period should also be dealt with.

The remaining parts of the section deal with all the injuries to property which occurred between 21st January, 1919, and 11th July, 1921, in respect of which either no claim was made to the Damage to Property (Compensation) (Ireland) Commission or a claim was made but was not determined by that Commission. That covers the case of those people who, for conscientious reasons, subsequent to the Treaty of 1921, feeling that being opposed to the Treaty they should not take advantage of any of the machinery set up under it, failed to claim. It is felt with regard to them that, as so much water has flowed under the bridge since and as a considerable change has taken place in public opinion in regard to the position, these people should be given an opportunity now to make a claim which they may have felt themselves precluded from making in the critical period when the Compensation (Ireland) Commission was sitting.

Paragraph (c) of the sub-section might be described as the originating section. It proposes to remove disabilities which were imposed upon Republicans by the Principal Act, the Damage to Property (Compensation) Act, 1923. Possibly members of the present Seanad are not aware of it, but under the Act of 1923 there was one very serious defect. A person suspected—and it never went beyond suspicion—of complicity with the forces which were ranged against the Provisional Government at the time, and subsequently against the forces of Saorstát Eireann, in cases where reports were made for compensation by the county court judge at the time, and where decrees were not awarded the Minister could simply refuse to honour the report or to act on it in any way. In the other cases, where the attention of the court was drawn to the terms of Section 9 the county court judge, if satisfied with the evidence, would have no option but to refuse compensation, no matter in what circumstances the property was destroyed. The general purpose of this Bill is to remove these disabilities and to enable compensation to be given in a number of cases where court decrees had already been made, or where awards were refused because of one or other of the sections referred to, or where the Minister for Finance, having received the report of the county court judge, had refused to act upon it.

The general method of procedure will be exactly the same as in the Principal Act of 1923. That is to say, a person will have to apply to the court; the case will be heard in the Circuit Court and there will be an opportunity there for both parties, the applicant on the one side and the Minister for Finance on the other side, to produce witnesses either to prove or to refute the claim. There is no substantial departure from the procedure of the existing Act in any way, but there are a couple of modifications. For instance, under Section 11 power is taken, with reservations, to meet particular cases of hardship.

"(1) Notwithstanding anything contained in any other Act, and except where a reinstatement condition is attached to the decree and no part of such reinstatement condition was complied with before the passing of this Act, no payment shall be made after the 30th day of September, 1934, in respect of any compensation awarded by a decree made under the Principal Act..."

The purpose of that is to enforce the reinstatement condition. A number of decrees were granted many years back with a reinstatement condition attached. No attempt has been made on the part of some of those who received the awards to comply with that condition. The Minister for Finance can neither disburse the money to them nor appropriate it to any other purpose. It is proposed in the circumstances set out in a subsequent sub-section, to compel them to rebuild before the 30th September, 1936, or else to forfeit the award made under the Principal Act. There are a few exceptions. One is the case of a person who is not actually in possession, but who will be next in possession when the present beneficiary dies, who would be quite willing to rebuild if he were in possession. Others are where, for one reason or another, due to age or some other frailty, the existing holders are unwilling to build and cannot be compelled to do so. In that case in sub-section (2) we make special provision to meet it. That is to say, in the case of a person to whom compensation was awarded who dies after the passing of this Act and before the 1st day of July, 1936,

"no payment shall be made after the expiration of three years after the death of such person,"

and in case he dies after the 30th June, 1936; and

"any son or daughter of such person has before the 1st day of July, 1936, agreed in writing with the Minister that, in the event of his or her becoming entitled on the death of such person to the land on which was situate the premises in respect of which such compensation was awarded, he or she will, within a period of three years after the death of such person, completely comply with such reinstatement condition,"

then in either of these two cases the provision as to forfeiture does not apply.

Section 12 deals with cases which have arisen, one comparatively recently, where compensation has been paid, and some of the chattels in respect of which compensation was given are subsequently found, and become the property of the Minister for Finance, who will be bound to offer them for purchase to the person to whom compensation was originally ordered. If they are not sold at an agreed price, then the Minister for Finance has power to dispose of them in the open market, and, I suppose, the beneficiary might buy them for whatever they fetch. These are the only proposals in the Bill. I need not detain the Seanad by dwelling upon them at length.

What is the estimated amount that will have to be paid in compensation under this Bill? That, of course, is a rather important consideration. I hope this is really the last of the Bills we shall have regarding the payment of compensation and pensions arising out of the civil war and the preceding war. We have had practically in every case to pay pensions and compensation to everyone engaged on either side. Now we have to pay for the damage done by both sides. Undoubtedly the principle we have adopted is a rather assuring one for those who may desire a scrap in the future. We have committed ourselves to the principle of paying everybody who engages in any fight in this country. No matter whether he wins or loses he is bound to win in the long run, as far as finances and pensions are concerned. I do not offer any objection to the payment of pensions, in regard to the civil war, to all concerned, because of the particular circumstances. There is one section which I think should not be included, Section 10, which deals with cases in which an appeal was lodged by the Minister against the award on the grounds laid down in (a) and (b) of Section 9 of the Principal Act, and on other grounds. In many cases the applicant made a settlement with the Minister as a result of which the appeal was withdrawn or, in some cases, allowed to go to the judge, who made a reduction in the original amount claimed.

The Minister takes power here to reopen these cases and to give the person concerned the amount he was awarded at first, although he agreed to a lesser amount. What pressure has been brought to bear on the Minister in this respect, and how many cases of that kind are there? There must be some insistent people, I suppose, or he would hardly go out of his way to reopen cases of the kind. It is hardly fair to ask the State to allow the Minister to reopen these cases now, and to pay out sums of money in excess of the sums they were prepared to accept when they made a settlement with the Minister. This seems to me to be the most unreasonable and unjustifiable section in the Bill. I would like to know what are the grounds for it, if there are many people affected, and why the State should be asked to foot the bill.

I am one of a very large number of people who object to compensation being paid to people who went out against the majority in this country, the majority that voted in favour of accepting the Treaty. These people went out in rebellion or sheltered forces which were in opposition. The Minister is here to-day by virtue of the fact that the Treaty was accepted. Otherwise he would not be here. He and his Party did all in their power against it. It is very unfair, especially in the present state of the country's finances, when we are heading for national bankruptcy, that money should have to be paid to people who were on the side of failure. As Senator O'Farrell has pointed out, it is a direct encouragement to people to go out and fight in order that they may get compensation, even if they fail. It is a terrible principle and I protest against it. Large numbers of people on the majority side suffered very serious consequential losses, but they were deprived of any compensation because that question was not covered by the Act. I realise that consequential losses could not be taken in, because all the money in the Bank of England would not pay for them. To bring in this Bill proposing to pay compensation to people who helped those who were in revolt against the State, and against the majority of the people, is a wrong principle. Large numbers of people keenly feel being taxed for that.

What cases are covered by the latter portion of paragraph (c) of Section 10?

it shall be lawful for the said Minister, if he so thinks proper, to pay in accordance with this section to such person, subject, where there was attached to such decree a reinstatement condition, to compliance by such person with such conditions (if any) as the said Minister thinks fit to attach to such payment, such sum, not exceeding the difference between the original amount and the agreed lesser amount, as the said Minister thinks proper"?

Does that mean that it applies only to cases where there was a reinstatement condition? It would limit the Bill to a great extent if the section only applied in such cases. Perhaps the Minister would explain why these words are put in and what a reinstatement condition has to do with the payment of the money.

On the point raised by Senator Jameson I might help to clarify the matter. It might not be practicable in a case where a reinstatement condition was originally imposed to enforce that condition now. It might have been originally a condition to reinstate a building, which has since been replaced by another building. Instead, we might ask the person either to accept some lesser amount, or to do some other work of the same nature as reinstatement. I can only do that where there was a reinstatement condition attached. It does not, as the Senator seems to believe, debar me from dealing with other cases in which no condition of that kind was found.

On the general merits of the section I think that if Senator O'Farrell was as fully aware of the circumstances as I have had to make myself in regard to the matter, he would see that it is a section that is wholly justifiable. First of all, if the Senator will turn to paragraph (b) of sub-section (1) he will see it reads:—

Where an appeal was lodged by the Minister for Finance against such decree on the ground that paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of Section 9 of the Principal Act applied to such a person, or on that ground and other grounds—

and that following the notice of appeal,

an agreement was entered into between the said Minister and such person.

In many cases, I feel that appeal was lodged under section 9 in order to coerce a person into making a settlement which otherwise he would not be prepared to make if Section 9 were not there. He was put into the position that if he did not make such a settlement he would have to run the gauntlet twice over. He might have already secured a decree in the other court because the knowledge that he was a member of, a helper of, or an active sympathiser with these associations, had not come to the notice of the authorities, or they were not in a position to produce evidence to show that he could be ruled out under Section 9.

Having secured his decree on the merits of his claim, that is to say on the ground that he had sustained damage to such and such an amount— that it was considered merely a question of equity, that he had sustained damage to this amount in circumstances that existed at the time, and the court had granted a decree in his favour—then having secured that decree he was put in this dilemma that, possibly, subsequent information may have come to the authorities to show that he was an active sympathiser—and "active sympathiser" was a term that might be very widely construed by the courts. There was then no regular political Republican organisation but he might have been a person who was known to have been a supporter of the Republican movement generally. Possibly on going to the courts he would be confronted with this statement, and it was possible for the State to make the claim that, irrespective of whether he had suffered this serious loss or not, he was known to be a supporter of the Republican movement and that therefore he was debarred from securing compensation. This person had sustained very serious damage, and it was possibly vital to the future of himself and his family that he should be compensated for that damage at the earliest possible moment. He wanted to be able to turn and pursue his ordinary avocations at the earliest possible date, but he had to run the risk of being brought to the court a second time by the Minister for Finance, having this section pleaded against him, and losing everything which the court had awarded him in the first instance. That is the position in which these people were placed.

I have studied a number of cases and it has been brought home clearly to my mind that these people if they thought they would have a fair trial in the second court and that this section would not have been pleaded against them, would have refused to make any settlement, because their losses were not covered by the amount awarded them but they went on the principle that a bird in the hand was worth two in the bush. In these circumstances they were compelled to accept the compensation offered them. We are reopening the cases of these people who were originally disqualified from procuring compensation by the operation of Section 9, and we are allowing people who would have gone to the courts but who did not do so because they felt that Section 9 would be pleaded against them, to come forward and to make fresh claims. We say that we are entitled to reopen cases where Section 9 has been used to coerce a settlement out of court that people who were placed in that cruel position should be no longer prejudiced, and that the original decree should stand.

On the merits of the original decree I should like to say that there are not many cases on record so far as I know where the Appeal Court reduced the amount of the original decree. They allowed it to stand without any reduction and the only cases where there was any alteration in the original decision were those cases in which Section 9 was pleaded against the applicant. I think, in view of the fact of the original decree having been allowed to stand in those cases where Section 9 was not pleaded, we are perfectly justified in accepting that decree and in being bound by it, in determining what compensation will be paid in cases which will be reopened in the circumstances which I have related to the House.

Would the Minister answer the question raised by Senator O'Farrell as to how much the people are to be asked to pay for this damage?

It is estimated that the total cost—not the cost for this year—will ultimately be £350,000. It is a considerable sum but it is a trifle compared with what has been already paid——

Justly paid.

——for damage to property compensation. Senator Miss Browne has said "justly paid." I notice that the Senator is much less harsh than she sounds on those occasions. Would Senator Miss Browne say that if compensation were paid now to the people who are covered by paragraph (a) sub-section (1) that it would be unjustly paid?

Cathaoirleach

I should not ask Senator Miss Browne any further questions as she has made two speeches already.

I am sorry that I allowed myself to transgress in that way. The total cost of the Bill, as I say, is estimated at £350,000. There has been already paid in respect of pre-Truce damage to property about £11,000,000 and in respect of post-Truce damage over £3,000,000 cash.

A Senator

Who is responsible for all the damage?

I think we shall leave that till doomsday to decide. No matter who was responsible for it, over ten years have gone by and the point is, are we going to continue to keep alive the spirit of bitterness engendered by the Civil War? We have paid already £3,000,000 for damage caused since the truce. There is left a small remnant of damage still to be compensated for. The fact that the State up to this has refused to recognise the claims of these people is only breeding illwill and keeping alive feelings that in the interests of the nation it were much better had been appeased long ago. I do not know to what Parties the beneficiaries would now attach themselves. We do not know whether they would be on the extreme right or the extreme left of the present Government, but at any rate they were all Irish citizens who suffered in the civil conflict.

If the verdict of two recent general elections is taken into consideration in connection with these matters, I am not sure that we can say that everything that was done on one side during the civil conflict has been justified any more than the things that were done on the other side have been justified. I am quite prepared to admit that damage was done by both sides to the common body of the Irish nation. One side has been fully and adequately compensated for that damage so far as it could be done during the ten years that preceded our advent to office. There remains something more to repair, which is trifling in comparison. We say that it would be much better that this £350,000 should be spent and that all these records, as regards mere physical injury, should be blotted out. If that were done, the general appeasement which would ensue would be worth much more to the Irish people of the future than this £350,000.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a second time"—put and agreed to.

Cathaoirleach

I should like to remind Senators that it is desirable that we should dispose of all these Bills this week. To enable us to do that it is necessary that any amendments should be handed in at once.

Does that apply to this Bill?

Cathaoirleach

Yes.

The Minister said that this Bill would cost the people £350,000. That is the first intimation we have had of the amount involved in it and I do not think it is fair to ask the Seanad to approach the Committee Stage without giving us adequate time to prepare amendments. It will take some time to debate these amendments. We cannot debate all these details on Second Reading. Senators would have to make a study of these matters and, perhaps, would have to get the assistance of some legal gentleman. It is quite impossible for them to do that and to deal with all the other Bills that have to come before the Seanad this week. I think it is a Bill that should be left over to the end of next month.

Cathaoirleach

The House decided that they would adjourn this week for a fortnight.

That is quite right but this is a Bill that should not be dealt with this week. I think that we should allow it to remain over until we come back.

The only thing is that we are rather anxious to get this wound up. The Seanad will recollect that in, I think, Section 12, the 1st of September, 1934, is mentioned and, of course, we cannot proceed to take any action under the Bill until it becomes law, and the longer the Bill takes in passing the shorter the interval between the date of its passing and the 1st September, 1934.

Cathaoirleach

It is only a question of a fortnight's adjournment anyhow.

I understood that the object of the adjournment was partly to facilitate Senators and partly to facilitate the Government. The House usually adjourns at the end of July, and this fortnight's adjournment was to enable Senators to get away so that there would be a full House from 16th August to deal with the various Bills. There may be one or two of these Bills which could not properly be put through all their stages this week. The idea of the adjournment was not that every single Bill that reached us before the adjournment was to be completed, but the urgency of a Bill must be taken into consideration. We might be able to take the Committee Stage at the end of the week provided there was time left for the Report Stage.

Cathaoirleach

The Minister is quite prepared to wait for a fortnight and it can be discussed then.

The only thing in that connection would be the re-summoning of the Dáil after the 16th August if there were any amendments.

Cathaoirleach

We cannot deal with it before Friday.

I think the Minister is being rather optimistic if he thinks that the entire 25 Bills will go through without any amendment. I am afraid that some sort of summoning of the Dáil will be inevitable.

Very well.

Committee Stage ordered for 16th August, 1933.
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