Dairying Industry—Motion.

Mr. O'Dwyer

I move the motion which stands in my name and in the names of Senator Baxter and Senator MacCabe as follows:—

That, in order to avert the decline of the dairying industry, Seanad Eireann requests the Government to provide an increased price for butter.

It was with considerable reluctance that I put down this motion but I felt it my duty to do so. It is open to the suspicion that because we represent the particular industry, we may be endeavouring unfairly to use the privileges of this House to push the interests of that industry at the expense of certain sections of the community. While fearing that the motion might be open to that interpretation, I felt also that representing, as we do, one of the fundamental industries, at a time when we see so much enthusiasm about the industrial revival, it was our duty to call the attention of the community as a whole to the decline of that industry. It has been steadily declining for years and, so far as we can see, it is approaching complete decay. In drawing attention to the matter, we are serving not only the dairying industry but the whole community which is so vitally concerned, even though it may not understand how deeply it is concerned.

I should like to point out the great importance of the industry to the country and, particularly, to the dairying counties, where it has been carried on for, perhaps, 100 years. To Tipperary, Limerick, parts of Cork and other counties, this industry is as important as the orange industry is to Jaffa and the wine industry to Malacca. It is the industry around which the whole economy of these counties has been built and on which their population has subsisted for many generations. The dairying industry employs more people per acre than any other industry—even tillage. In Limerick, it has employed a large population and the land on which dairying is carried on can retain its fertility without the importation of artificial manure. For the past 100 years, those lands have retained their fertility and will retain it so long as dairying is carried on.

Besides its importance to these counties, the industry is of still greater importance to the country at large, because, without the assistance of the dairying industry, the cattle trade, which forms so large a part of our national economy, could not be long carried on. The cattle for export are furnished by the dairying counties, and a decline in the dairying industry would, naturally, be followed by a decrease in the export of cattle. The dairying industry was very important at one time. We supplied 50 per cent. of the imports into the British market. That ratio has steadily declined until, nine or ten years ago, we supplied less than 4 per cent. For the past two years we supplied only a fraction of 1 per cent. The decline has been steady and continuous for many years, and especially for the past few years. Last year, very little butter was exported—only 4,000 or 5,000 cwts. The probability is that this year there will be no exports, that we shall have barely sufficient for the requirements of the country.

We shall be asked what the reasons are for this continuous decline, and it is well that those reasons should be explained as clearly as possible. The main reason was the bad price always paid for butter. Five or six years ago the Government found it necessary to increase, by State bounty or subsidy, the price received on the British market for exports of butter. That export bounty has had to be kept up practically ever since. The low price was, in general, the reason for the continuous decline. In addition, it is a very laborious industry, requiring late hours and hard work. Agricultural workers were, in general, inclined to give up the milking of cows and go in for other forms of agriculture which called for shorter hours of work. The general inclination on the part of agricultural workers was to avoid the milking of cows, if at all possible. The difficulty of obtaining labour was, therefore, also responsible for the decline of dairying. Another reason was the heavy export of the best heifers. For over 20 years they were exported to England, with the result that only a poor type of cow remained, which gave an uneconomic return. That affected the dairying industry. Another reason was the competition of the dry cattle. It is at present far more profitable for the farmer on the dairy lands to engage in dry store feeding, with the result that, for many years past, dairy cattle in Limerick and elsewhere were replaced by the dry cattle industry which gives scarcely any employment.

The result is that those who relied on the dairy farms for employment are now practically idle or depending on public works. If that decline is allowed to continue it will mean not only that unemployment will be directly increased but that, sooner or later, we shall be faced with an actual shortage of butter. If that does not happen this year, it may happen next year. It will also follow, in the course of a few years, that there will be a shortage of cattle. That must, inevitably, follow on the decline of the dairying industry.

It has been asked why we should continue to subsidise the production of dairy products when the surplus has to be exported and sold at an uneconomic price on a foreign market. That has already cost a large figure but I think this is not the time, after continuing it for so many years, to let the export bounty drop. I firmly believe that, when the war is over, no matter how it ends, the prospects for the dairying industry and for the export business will be far better than they have ever been, that there will be an increased demand all over the world for butter, meat and meat products. For that reason, during the year or two that must elapse, the Government should not hesitate to encourage and maintain the present herds and, if possible, to increase these herds.

One of the main reasons for the decline in the industry is the poor price that has been paid for butter. I would find it very difficult, I am sure, to explain to those who live in towns and have no connection with the industry, its important nature or the uneconomic price which has been paid. The Minister for Agriculture, who has always been very sympathetic, will, I am sure, point out to the House the basic nature of the industry and its importance to the community. He will also be able to state that the prices hitherto paid for butter are not economic. We suggest that, in order to maintain the industry as it is and to prevent it from declining during the present situation, there should be an increase in the prices payable to farmers. How increased prices can be made available would be a matter for the Government to consider. There are two means of doing it. The first is by a direct contribution from the public funds and the other is by increasing prices to the home consumer, because this year it will be, probably, the home consumer will use all our butter.

In regard to a contribution from public funds I do not consider the contribution hitherto paid over-large. Unless I am mistaken, it has not been much more than £300,000 or £370,000 net over the past couple of years. That amount, when we consider everything, is very small in comparison with the subsidies given to other industries and other interests. Now we come to the question of raising the price of butter. Personally, I would be very much against increasing the cost of living. I always thought that if we could keep down this cost everything would be all right, but we must realise that when we have not been able to enforce the policy of keeping down prices in other directions—when prices of other commodities have risen—we cannot, in all fairness, keep the price of one commodity down.

Take the price for wheat, for instance. The price was fixed and, apparently, it was a fair price, but oats and barley went up and everyone recognised that in view of that prices of wheat could not be kept down. The same applies to butter to-day. In all fairness everyone must admit that, at its price to-day, butter is the cheapest commodity on the market. Those who understand the working of the industry know that the price is not an economic price and that it has not been economic for a long time.

The price to-day is that which has been in operation for three or four years. There has been no increase. Those who live in towns seem, especially, to resent the price of butter, but they forget that though they pay 2/- or 2/3 per gallon for milk, it takes two and one-third gallons of milk to make a pound of butter. Actually butter is the cheapest food on the market to-day. I believe it would not be unfair if the price was advanced to a figure that would give a fair return. We all agree that the producer of food is the first person to be considered and that he is entitled to a fair return. I suggest to the Minister that he should see the justice of the case and meet it either by a contribution from the public funds or by increasing prices, if that is necessary. Some increase should be given to the dairy farmer and the sooner that increase is given the better. Just as the delay in fixing the price of wheat meant a loss in the quantity sown, so the longer the present price for butter prevails the greater the decline in the dairying industry will be and the greater will the amount of the butter exports be. I ask the Minister and the House to consider the case carefully. What we ask is only fair and something to which the dairy farmers are entitled. Otherwise we would not have put down this motion.

Mr. Baxter

I second the motion.

Mr. MacCabe

I am associated with this motion in connection with increased prices for butter and I agree with the remarks of Senator O'Dwyer. The first thing I want to impress on the House is that it is a well-known fact that the dairying industry has declined for the last two or three years. One of the factors that caused that decline and which is still operating is the price of milch cows. In the Twenty-Six Counties prices have increased by at least £10 per head during the past five or six months. Good cows are being sold off the farms and are being purchased in the Six Counties. A small number of them go across the Channel.

The farmers here were obliged to sell good herds because they wanted money and the prices offered were an inducement to do so. Now they will have to wait for two or three years before young heifers will leave them in a position to supply milk to creameries.

Another factor is that in middle sized farms on account of the extra tillage farmers will be obliged to reduce the numbers of their live stock. The first to go are the good cows. Dry stock is a paying proposition at the moment. It requires less labour and gives more profit than dairying stock. Labour is scarce and more expensive with the result that the farmer is induced to feed dry stock and utilise the labour available for tillage. The price of foodstuffs for dairy cows has increased by 200 per cent., and many small farmers—or any farmers for that matter—cannot get suitable food to feed dairy cattle for the winter, no matter what price they pay.

In a good many counties there is a good deal of what is called mixed farming. That depends a good deal on the raising of pigs. Pigs were fed on separated milk as it came from the creameries, together with other food. The raising of pork is unfortunately, I think, a thing of the past here.

The pork industry is going from under our feet. There is no feeding for pigs and there is very little use for the separated milk or the surplus milk that in normal times would be utilised on the farms for rearing pigs. I am sure there are very few in this House who understand the conditions on which the ordinary milk supplier sends milk to the creameries. I think I would be safe in saying that the average price per gallon paid for milk in the Twenty-Six Counties for the year ending 31st December, 1941, would not be more than 6¼d. per gallon but if we take the farmer living in a backward place in the country who has to take his milk a mile or a mile and a quarter to the main road to the carter who is going to take the milk to the creamery, it will be seen that that man spends an hour or an hour and a half going in the morning and coming back in the evening to fetch the separated milk. That hour and a half is time that could well be used in working on his farm. At the end of the month there is deducted from that man's milk cheque 1d. per gallon in respect of the cartage of the milk to the creamery for the month. So that even after losing his own time to the extent of three hours per day and paying 1d. per gallon for the cartage of the milk he receives only about 5d. per gallon for his milk on the price that is being paid for butter. He is not going to continue to do that and I say he would be a foolish man if he did. Apart from the loss of his time there is the wear and tear of harness and of his cart. It may happen that he cannot afford to pay a boy to do this work. The distance travelled each week in going with the milk and coming back a second time in the day to bring home the separated milk, would represent a ten or 12-mile journey.

The man who carts the milk to the creamery is perhaps more fortunate. He has to deliver the milk to the creamery but even so the loss of time is considerable. He has to harness his horse in the morning and he has to be out very early. There is also considerable wear and tear in equipment. He has to make sure that the milk and the utensils are clean. He has to remain a certain time at the creamery and return about 12 o'clock in the day. I fear that dairy farmers are not going to continue to supply milk on these conditions. I say that as one who has worked in a creamery for over 30 years. I supply milk to a creamery but if I had not been a worker in the creamery, I would certainly believe that dairy farmers are fools to expend so much in time and labour and get so little in return.

It may be argued that at 1/6 per lb. the price paid for butter is reasonable and that there should be no complaints as far as that is concerned but, taking the creamery itself, let us consider the overhead charges and the increased cost of the various articles used in the manufacture of butter. I take the year 1939 and compare the cost of a few items that have to be used in the creameries in that year with their present cost. In the year 1939 coal was delivered to the creameries at 42/- per ton. In 1941, it was 90/- delivered. That is more than double what it cost in 1939. Salt cost 70/- per cwt. in 1939 while in 1941 the cost was 170/- delivered. Boxwood in 1939 was 1/3 per box and in 1941 it was 2/10 per box. Butter paper, a commodity that is used every day in large quantities, in 1939 was 6½d. per lb. and in 1941 was 1/3 per lb. These, as I say, are only a few of the items used in the creamery. I shall not give the cost of spare parts for the machinery in the creamery but whatever spare parts are allowed into the country would now be at least 100 per cent. over what they cost in 1938.

Taking the other side of the picture, in 1938, the creameries received 147/- per cwt. for butter; in 1940, 156/-, and in 1941, 163/-. That means that they received only 26/- per cwt. more than the price in pre-war days. I think that that is a comparison that would not satisfy anybody because it will be seen that the overhead charges of the creamery are up by over 100 per cent., while the increased price of butter would not be more than 15 per cent. The Minister will agree, I am sure, that the production of butter last year, in 1941, was not nearly so high as the production in 1940. The quantity of creamery butter manufactured in 1941 was 620,000 cwts. The present consumption of creamery butter per month is 50,000 cwts. The estimated production of creamery butter for the ensuing year is 550,000 cwts. The retail price of butter in 1939 was 1/6, while the retail price to-day is 1/7 per lb. The minimum price of milk on the average for manufacturing purposes should not be less than 8d. per gallon, exclusive of the skimmed milk. That is not an unreasonable claim after allowing a penny per gallon for separated milk. It is only right and just that the farmer should get at least 8d. per gallon for his milk. When it is considered that farmers living convenient to the City of Dublin are getting 1/8 and 1/10 per gallon and that down the country farmers are not getting even 6½d. or 6¼d., it will be seen that there is something wrong somewhere.

Our claim, I hold, is not an unreasonable claim. We only ask that the Minister should seriously consider the advisability of increasing the price of butter so that the farmer may get 8d. per gallon for his milk—or 9d., in other words, allowing 1d. per gallon for separated milk. That may necessitate a retail price for butter of 2/- per lb., which, in view of all the circumstances, would not be excessive. The manufacturing cost of creameries, with the exception of salaries and wages, has increased, at the lowest calculation, 100 per cent. I have not known of a single case where a creamery manager or a worker has made application for an increase of salary since the outbreak of this war. And why? They felt that their employers were not able to pay it, that they were struggling, or were not getting a proper return for their produce. Consequently they were patriotic enough not to make a foolish attempt to ask for an increase of salary. I hope that will continue. The farmer would be quite willing and just as anxious as anybody else to see the employees well paid, because they expect if they are reasonably paid, that they will give a good return for their pay; but on the return they are getting, they are not, unfortunately, in a position to pay anybody. I have here an article from an English paper which shows that there they have considered the whole question of food production and the prices that should be paid to farmers. With the permission of the House I shall read an extract from it:—

"It cannot be said that the new production prices have been received with any great enthusiasm. Many had the idea that the increases required to meet the higher wages bill and other mounting costs would be much larger than the new prices indicate. Indeed, the trouble about reaching a just settlement was the lack of proof about farmers' costs now or at any past time. Agricultural economists at Oxford, Cambridge, and other centres, could quote financial results from about 2,000 farms, where careful accounts are kept, but such figures are rather a hand-picked sample than representative of all farms and all farmers. It appears that wheat, fat sheep and wool, sugar beet and flax have been treated comparatively generously, and no doubt this will be true of milk when the new prices are fixed. The delay in settling milk prices is due to the proposed introduction of a national basic price for the next contract year..."

Cathaoirleach

What paper is that, just for reference?

Mr. MacCabe

The Farmers' Gazette, an English paper. They have great hopes that from the 1st April this year the price of milk, as well as the prices of other commodities, will be increased or will be fixed so that it will be a paying proposition for the British farmer. I am sure the House will agree that the Department here has as clever experts or supermen as any other country in the world. I am sure they have carried out experiments on farms and have gone into the production of milk and butter. I ask any of the inspectors of the Department to say if any farmer could produce milk at less than 9d. or 10d. per gallon. I think I would be fairly correct in saying that they could not contradict that statement. If they are prepared to do it, they are welcome to it at any time, but I fear there is no hope of convincing the people that it can be done. Why should people be asked to produce butter and send it out to the consumers at a loss? What man would walk into a boot factory and ask the manager to sell him a pair of boots at 15/6, that cost 18/6 to manufacture. The manager would say: “The sooner this man is locked up the better; he is insane.” You cannot expect a farmer to produce and to sell at a loss. It cannot continue indefinitely.

If consumers had the true facts of the case they would realise that our claim is a just one. Taking it on the average it will take 2.35 gallons or 2.50 gallons in some cases, to produce one lb. of butter, which is sold at 2/- per lb. It would be much less for the gallon of milk sold without any manufacturing or overhead charges. I do not want to let this occasion pass without referring to the action of the Minister during the depression in the butter business, and the position he was confronted with regarding exports of butter to foreign markets.

I certainly say that he stepped into the breach on that occasion. He did his work remarkably well, and I have no hesitation in saying that he was responsible for saving the dairying industry at the time. Not only do I say it, but all the dairy farmers appreciate his work on that occasion. But times have greatly changed since then, and nobody is in a better position to know that than the Minister. He knows from his inspectors the position so far as farmers are concerned. These men have an interest in dairying, and they know that good cows are being sold. That information is available to the Minister in his Department. I hope he will consider seriously the position of the dairying industry. I do not want to be too pessimistic, so far as the future is concerned, but I never had greater doubts in my mind as to the future of the dairying industry than I have at present. I think that if something is not done, and that quickly, the year 1942 will see a number of small farmers turning over to dry stock and refusing to supply milk to creameries at the price that is being paid. I endorse what Senator O'Dwyer said. He has a through knowledge of the business, having been for a considerable number of years chairman of prosperous and successful creameries.

Peadar Mac Fhionnlaoich

Sílim gurb é seo an fáth atá leis an ualach atá ar lucht díolta cánach sa tír. Tá an-chuid deontasaí ag dul go dtí feirmeoirí ins an tír seo cheana. Thug an tAire Airgeadais cunntas cruinn dúinn indé ar na deontasaí seo. Sílim gur timcheall £8,000,000 a tugtar i rith na bliana do na feirmeoirí ó'n phobal in éineacht leis an talamh. Tá an pobal ag tabhairt seilbh talmhan do na feirmeoirí agus in éindigh leis sin, tá siad ag tabhairt £8,000,000, do réir an Aire Airgeadais, do na feirmeoirí le toradh do bhaint as an talamh sin. Is fiú rud mór an talamh féin. Ní cuimhin liom-sa an raibh luach níos aoirde ar thalamh na hEireann ná atá indiu.

'Sé ceist anois an bhfuil na feirmeoirí ag baint toradh maith as an talamh nó an mbeidh siad ábalta an luach árd sin fhagháil as an talamh. Mara bhfuil dearmad orm, tá deontas ag dul go dtí na feirmeoirí seo—deontas ag dul dóibh cheana féin, sé sin, deontas do dhaoine a chuireas rudaí go dtí tír eile, agus árduigheann sin an luach annseo in Eirinn. Ní mheasaim go ndéanfadh sé mórán dochair don tír seo dá mbéadh stad curtha leis an im do chur amach as an tír. Dá leigthí do na feirmeoirí seo dul isteach ar obair eile—curadóireacht, cruithneacht, agus mar sin—agus gan ach an méid ime a theastuigheann uainn in Eirinn a dhéanamh, sílim nach ndéanfadh sé dochar ar bith dúinn.

Ní raibh mé sásta le cuid de na hargóintí a cuireadh annseo. Níor chuala mé i gceart an méid a dubhairt an Seanadóir O Duibhir, agus mar sin ní féidir liom breith a thabhairt ar a chuid argóintí. Ní raibh mé sásta leis na fáthanna a thug an Seanadóir Mac Cába dúinn annseo ar dheontaisí fá leith le haghaidh na mbó bainne. Má thógann siad na ba iad féin agus má gheibheann siad luach árd ortha, bhfuil aon rud ortha níos mó ná gamhna do choinneáil beo, agus bó bhainne ag cuid aca. Annsin, mheas sé gur fáth eile luach árd a dhíolfadh siad ar bhiadh na mbó i rith an gheimhridh. Ní ghlacaim leis sin ar chor ar bith. Ní dóigh liom féin gur ceart biadh ar bith do cheannach do na ba, nuair atá féar agus talamh ann. Mar thuigim-se an scéal, deineann féar biadh do shábháil do na ba, agus ní ghlacaim leis an bhfáth sin. Sin rud ait eile adubhairt sé: ganntanas lucht oibre. Caithfidh mé a innsint díbh nach bhfuil ganntanas lucht oibre ann. Nach bhfuil 30,000 lucht oibre nach bhfuil obair le fagháil aca? Má tá fear anois ann a dteastuigheann lucht oibre uaidh, nach bhfuil lucht oibre le fagháil? Dubhairt sé gur deacair lucht oibre fhagháil do na feirmeóirí sin.

Tá mé in aghaidh an rúin seo —an t-ualach do chur ar an phobal arís, an luach ime d'árdú, agus dul suas agus suas le lucht oibre ar an talamh. Cuimhnidh an cás a bhéadh ann do na daoine bochta ins na cathracha. Tá cuid mhór aca ag teacht i dtír ar arán, im agus tae. Is annamh a gheibheann siad rudaí eile. Má cuirtear suas luach an ime ortha, beidh sé an-deacair ortha. Níl mórán ime le spáráil ag na daoine bochta agus bhéadh siad an-mhór in aghaidh luach an ime do chur suas ortha.

An t-ádhbhar eile a thug an Seanadóir dúinn ná go bhfuil luacha níos aoirde i Sasain. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil baint aige sin leis. Tá cruadhtan i Sasain anois agus is dóigh liom go mbeidh sé níos mó. Níl neart againn air sin, ach coinneáil as—an méid is féidir linn. Tá an cás céadna ag lucht oibre. Tá ganntanas fear i Sasain agus caithfidh siad tuarastal maith do thabhairt ar lucht oibre agus meallann sin fir oibre as an tír seo. Is dóigh liom go stadfaidh sin nuair a stadfas an cogadh agus go mbeidh ortha teacht ar ais. Dá mbéadh sé fúm-sa, ní chuirfinn púnt amháin ime go Sasain. Béimíd ag luighe ar ár obair féin agus ar ár mbiadh féin. Mar sin, tá mé in aghaidh an rúin seo, agus tá súil agam nach nglacfadh an Teach leis.

Mr. Counihan

I am sorry I was not able to follow the speech made by the last Senator. Although I understand a little Irish, I could not follow the Senator very well. I support the motion because I am convinced that the dairy farmer is the most important factor in our agricultural economy. I am convinced that every possible encouragement should be given to foster that industry. The Minister made a statement—I think it was before the Dairy Science Society—in which he said that the production of butter for export is uneconomic, as it cannot be done without paying out very heavy subsidies, which cannot be continued in the future. He went on to advise the farmers to get out, to some extent, of the dairy shorthorn bulls and go in for more of the beef cattle such as Herefords and Angus bulls. I cannot agree with the Minister and, in my opinion, he was very badly advised to make that statement at this particular time, if he considered world conditions to-day.

I believe that the breed we should keep to at the present time is the dairy shorthorn breed. If we are fortunate enough to remain neutral, when the war is over we will be the only country in the world in a position to restock not only England but, perhaps, portions of Europe with cattle. The dairy shorthorn is the most suitable breed for that purpose. At the present time a dairy shorthorn heifer of a year and a half is worth from £2 to £3 more than heifers of any other breed of that age. It shows that, even at the present time, British and Irish farmers believe that their stocks of dairy cattle and the keeping of them in calf is most important. I think that the Minister should encourage the production of the dairy shorthorn.

Dr. Ryan

So we do in every way.

Mr. Counihan

Dairy farming is the foundation of the live-stock industry. If we have not dairy farming we will not have live stock. We cannot produce young stock as they do in the ranches of Canada and the Argentine. The cheapest and the most economic way is to subsidise the dairy farmer to produce young stock reared on the bucket with milk from the creameries or from the dairy farms. The dairy farmer has a very difficult and precarious job. It is an all-time job. Cows must be milked on Sundays or holy days and in all kinds of weather. Cows are also subject to very virulent diseases. They suffer from contagious abortion. Mastitis and other diseases may destroy a whole herd. A farmer may lose all his calves in a season from white scour. If we give consideration to these facts I am sure no one would grudge the dairying farmer better remuneration for his valuable work. The Irish farmer has been described, even described here to-day by some people, as lazy and inefficient while the Danish and Scotch farmers are held up as models to follow. Anyone who understands the position and takes our soil and climate into account must admit that there are no farmers in the world who could manage our land to better advantage than Irish farmers. I hope the Minister will favourably consider the suggestion that the price of butter should be increased. I think no one grudges the farmer a better price for his produce.

Donnchadha O h-Ealuighthe

Nílim chun mórán a rádh ar an gceist seo agus ó's rud é go bhfuil sé chó déanach is atá is fearra dhom labhairt as Béarla.

I cannot let this motion pass without intervening. I happen to be one of those members of the Seanad nominated by the Municipal Authorities Association of Ireland. People in the cities and towns are already well taxed as regards the price they are paying for butter. The citizens are paying 1/7 per lb. for butter. We heard a good deal about the wages of those living in cities and towns. Well they have to pay the increased prices. I am sorry to have to differ from the views of Senator O'Dwyer or Senator MacCabe, two Senators for whom I have the greatest admiration, but on this occasion I cannot help standing on a different platform. I know something about the dairying business and it is certainly news to me to learn that the dairy business around County Limerick is such a great factor in providing employment. I lived for about two months in Charleville and I never saw a man driving a donkey or a jennet to the creamery. It was girls who drove milk to the creamery from the farms.

Mr. Quirke

You must not have been looking for them. The men were there all right but you did not see them.

Mr. Healy

I can assure Senator Quirke that my eyes were wide open. That was the type of employment that was given in the dairying industry. They employed no men. The girls milked the cows and they took the milk to the creamery. I do not know whether there is any change since then. I gather from the remarks of Senator MacCabe that the creameries now send around and collect the milk. Is that correct?

Mr. O'Donovan

Yes.

Mr. Healy

Then we are advancing. Why is it that all the good classes of stock are leaving the country? Why do they not rear the calves and keep them? That was the system always carried out by mixed farmers. They bred their stock and kept them for the dairy. When they do that they keep the best stock for their own use. Senator Counihan made some reference to advice given by the Minister for Agriculture to cattle owners as regards the breed they should perpetuate. I noticed that at the last bull show in Ballsbridge greater numbers of shorthorns rather than Aberdeen-Angus were purchased. I remember the time when butter was produced for something between 6d. and 8d. per lb. The citizens of Dublin are now paying 1/7 per lb. That is practically twice the price paid formerly for butter. The urban citizens are subsidising the production of butter in the country by paying a bigger price than could be secured on the open market. If there was an open market in England, Australia and New Zealand could cut these producers out of business. It was for the purpose of getting Irish butter into the English market that the Government here subsidised Irish butter. But they compelled the consumers of butter to pay the highest price possible.

I should not be doing my duty here if I did not oppose this motion. I am sorry the Labour Senators are absent. This is one of the things to which they should pay some attention. I notice that Senator Cummins is here, but he is the only one of the official Labour Party who is present. I do not know how the poor people in the cities and towns are able to live, having regard to the prices they have to pay for everything. They are well fleeced. I oppose this motion, not that I have any anxiety other than the anxiety to see the farmers doing well, but all sections of the community must be considered and I stand up for the section least able to bear the burden.

Mr. MacCabe

The Senator must understand that the farmers and farmers' children are consumers as well as the people in the towns and cities.

Mr. Healy

The Senator need not tell me that, because I am the son of one of them myself.

Mr. O'Connell

I listened carefully to the speeches made in this debate. Some statements were made in support of the motion that do not tally with my experience. Senator Counihan and, I think, Senator O'Dwyer stated —I have seen reports of the same statement by persons outside this House—that the dairying industry is the foundation of our live-stock industry, that we would have no young stock if we had not the dairying industry. I come from a county which is not a dairying county, but I dare say that it and the neighbouring counties, which are not dairying counties either, produced more young stock in the past than any of the dairying counties. The greatest fairs for store cattle in Ireland were in the West, where dairying is not carried on. When I was young, small farmers in my county produced and reared young cattle which they sold off at one and a half or two years of age to the graziers in the midlands and eastern counties. We know that Ballinasloe, Balla and other places in the West of Ireland were the main centres from which young dry stock came rather than the dairying counties.

A statement made by Senator MacCabe will sound strange to most people. When they consider what is paid for liquid milk here in the city and in the towns, they will be surprised to hear that Senator MacCabe, representing the dairying industry, would be quite satisfied to get 9d. per gallon for his milk. I cannot understand why the producers of milk would not, instead of turning it into butter, consider the possibility of selling the milk in liquid form or why some organisation is not set up whereby the people, particularly the young people, would get adequate supplies of milk. This is a milk-producing country but the consumption of milk is less here than in most countries. As a result of that, quite a number of our people suffer from malnutrition. I do not think that an industry that can live only with the aid of subsidies is an economic industry or is worth carrying on. I do not mind an expedient to get over a temporary difficulty but the sooner we consider the reorganisation of an industry that has to live permanently on subsidies and to be artificially fed, the better.

I agree with Senator Cú Uladh and with Senator Healy as to the undesirability of increasing the price of butter at present. We know that it is the only form of fat available to poor people, not only in the cities but in the country. There is no margarine available at present, such as was available in the last war, so that butter is practically the only fat available. The price of dripping is fixed but most people know that it cannot be had—at all events, at the price fixed. Dripping is being called by fancy names and is being sold at fancy prices instead of at the fixed price. If the only way of keeping the dairying industry alive were to increase the price of butter, I would oppose such an increase.

I do not know that the alternative suggested by Senator O'Dwyer—to increase the subsidy—is much better than the other proposal. Producing milk at 5d. or 6d. per gallon is not a worth-while business for the farmer. What I should like most to see would be some reorganisation of the industry whereby milk, in its natural liquid form, would be available—at, of course, a reasonable price to the farmer. I believe it could be supplied at a lower price than the people of Dublin and some other cities have to pay for it. That would be my outlook on the whole question—that we should go in much more for the supply of milk to the children, and people generally, and encourage its consumption. That, I believe, would meet the difficulties which the farmers are up against, because I do not think that we shall ever again see the day when producing milk for the English market will be an economic proposition. Even if that were an open market and things were normal, you could not compete with places like New Zealand and Denmark. Even before the war, that was happening. We shall have to turn our energies in another direction rather than produce for the English market.

Mr. O'Donovan

I should like to steer a, more or less, middle course on this motion. I do, certainly, think that this year and next winter the country generally, and especially Dublin, will be faced with a serious milk problem. It was so last winter. I do not at this late hour propose to cover the field which was traversed by the various speakers but, before the Minister speaks, I wish to put a few queries to him in order to get enlightenment.

One thing I would like to ask the Minister is, has he any method of comparing the cost of cold storing butter that is produced in the summer against the relative cost of winter produced butter? To my mind, the big difficulty with the dairying industry and the milk-producing industry is that production has to take place practically during the summer months. I do not agree with that system. Coming from a farming district in which there was always and I hope always will be a mixed farming industry I can definitely say that there are no places in Ireland that I have seen, and I have seen a good few of them, that I can compare with greater similarity than Wexford and South Cork. They are certainly farmed on the very same lines, and the aim of farmers there is to produce on the land the crops and the fodder that will maintain live stock during the winter, so that they will have cows calving and maintaining milk production during the winter. In this debate I should like to get the comparative figures for the amount of milk produced and delivered at the creameries during the winter and summer months. My personal belief is that in Limerick and Tipperary, and in these places that are known as the dairying districts, the milk is practically all produced in the summer. I can speak from actual knowledge and say that the cows that come up from these districts during the winter apparently are not half fed. It is a disgrace to see the quality of the cattle that come up to Dublin from these districts—old cows from places which are supposed to be the mainstay of the dairying industry. It seems to me to be absolutely wrong that these cattle should come up in such a poor condition from what are supposed to be the principal dairying districts.

Unfortunately disease is rampant among such stock, and without a perfect knowledge of the situation I feel that there must be something very wrong with the maintenance of these cattle during the winter time. They are apparently half-starved and badly housed. I am saying things now that some people may object to, but they are absolute facts. It is a very unfortunate thing from the point of view of the person examining these cattle post-mortem and ante-mortem to see the poor condition in which they are in generally.

There is one redeeming feature, if you could call it such, that these cattle are selling at fancy prices now. Those which sold at £1 a few years ago now fetch £10. They are used in the canning industry. It seems to me that the whole system of milk production in the vicinity of cities, and also throughout the country, must get careful consideration. Prices were given by Senator MacCabe indicating what is being paid in country districts compared with those in Dublin district milk producing counties. I understand producers have to give a guarantee to produce so much milk to supply the Dublin market, but the price is much greater than what is given for milk in the creamery districts. Even with the guarantee, I understand that the contract was not fulfilled, and during the winter months there was a shortage of milk for delivery in the city. Quite recently the Department of Local Government had to call on the country creameries to supply milk to the City of Dublin. Senator O'Connell mentioned that we should devise some system of producing milk to be consumed in a liquid state. With the present transport difficulties, however, that is absolutely impossible. It often occurred to me, even before the present time, that there should be properly refrigerated carriages on the railways. That has not materialised. With or without refrigerated carriages, it is an impossibility, in view of the present transport difficulties, to bring milk from districts in Limerick, Cork and Kerry, to Dublin, in a satisfactory state. It has not arrived in a satisfactory state, and that is mainly due to delays in transit.

I am afraid we cannot get over these delays at present. To facilitate Dublin, Meath and Wicklow, the counties interested in the Dublin milk district, I feel also that there must develop a system of winter dairying. There is no place in the country where that is being done as consistently as in the city itself. Even with the increased price in the Dublin district contracts were not fulfilled and it is hard to believe when that happens that the price is satisfactory for farmers turning milk into butter in country districts. The unfortunate thing is that all the milk in these so-called dairying districts is produced in a lazy manner in the summer, and there is no proper provision made for the maintenance and housing of the cattle and the production of milk during the winter. The question I have been hearing since I was a child is: Does winter dairying pay? I would like to put that question to any Senator or even to the Minister. I would like to raise also the question as to the comparative cost of the storage of butter produced in the summer, as it is stored at present, against the possibly increased cost of producing that butter in the winter time and selling it without storage.

Senator Cú Uladh mentioned that no farmer should have to buy anything in order to maintain his cattle. That was the system when I was growing up. Indian meal was bought for pigs but for nothing else. Apart from that everything necessary for the feeding of stock was produced on the farm.