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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 23 Mar 1944

Vol. 28 No. 16

Midwives Bill, 1943—Committee (Resumed Section 46, Amendment No. 1).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:—
To delete sub-section (8).

As the constitution of the House to-day is somewhat different from what it was when the House rose last night, I may perhaps be permitted to remind Senators that the section which is objected to is one which has the effect of giving power to the Minister to compel a midwife to call in a local dispensary doctor, if available, and that it was supported by the Parliamentary Secretary on the grounds that it was desirable for purposes of discipline. On the Second Reading, it did occur to me that, although that was a perfectly valid reason, yet it might run counter to the demands of humanity and the needs of the patient. It was a matter, however, about which it was obviously necessary to get some light and guidance from those who are more professionally competent to deal with those two conflicting arguments and, therefore, I took occasion, in the interval, to consult persons who were Masters or ex-Masters of great Dublin midwifery hospitals—the Rotunda, the Coombe, and Holles Street—and also with well-known gynæcologists attached to other hospitals, and I was unable to find any one of those specialists who was in favour of this section. One of them was not anxious to decide between the view of the Parliamentary Secretary and his own view as a doctor, but generally the specialist gynæcologists were strongly against the passing into law of this section, and they assured me that the opinion of the medical profession, as a whole, was exceedingly adverse to it.

The reasons for that opinion are simple and, although we are not doctors, I think they are within the knowledge of most of us in this House. For instance, in child-birth, certain emergencies may arise at any time. You may have to deal with a sudden hæmorrhage at any stage of the birth, either before it or after it. You may have to deal with other sudden and dangerous emergencies, such as eclampsia or fits, and when you are faced with those emergencies the question of the mother's life may depend on promptness in attendance and skill. Now, drafted as it is, the section imperatively requires that the midwife must call in the dispensary doctor, if available, and no standard is laid down as to the availability of the doctor. Senators will be aware that in country districts dispensary doctors, very often, are not on the telephone, and they will be also aware that by reason of the shape or contour of a particular county, and the irregularity of the districts over which a dispensary doctor presides, a woman may have her labour come upon her when there is no dispensary doctor within many miles of her place. Apparently, however, this section would make it incumbent upon the midwife to send a message, by bicycle, by foot, or on horseback, to the nearest dispensary doctor, no matter how far away he might be, in order to find out whether or not his services are available. He might be available, but he might be too late. He might not be available, and it would be only when the midwife could ascertain that he was not available, that she could call in another doctor. At the same time, there might be a doctor two or three miles away, perhaps in a nearby town which did not constitute part of the dispensary district, who could be summoned by telephone to save the woman's life.

I am advised that that is more than a possibility; it is a thing which is likely to occur, and I suggest that the mere statement of that as a possibility should be sufficient to induce this House either to reject altogether or, at least, to insist upon some strong modification of the section as it stands. But there are other considerations. There may not be an emergency involving danger of the mother's death if it is not dealt with immediately and skilfully, but there may be long and difficult labour in which it is desirable, not only from the point of view of humanity, but also from the point of view of the health of the mother and the child, that skilled, and the most skilled, help should be available at the first opportunity. I think that not merely the saving of life but the saving of suffering is a consideration which should be allowed to overweigh mere considerations of discipline.

The Parliamentary Secretary will, no doubt, develop at greater length the necessity for this discipline upon which he has already touched. But I do rather earnestly urge on this House to insist that the treatment of the patient is, and must be, the primary consideration. We know that, even among those who are not gynæcological specialists, there are doctors in most districts who tend to pay more attention to midwifery cases than other doctors because they are more expert and more interested in that branch of the profession. They are more skilled and they are likely to be able to deliver a woman sooner and with less suffering and, speaking for myself, I do feel that it is a wrong thing that the midwife should be compelled to call in a dispensary doctor, even if he is available, when it may be known to her, and known to everybody in the neighbourhood, that, through no fault of his, he is not as skilled an operator as other doctors equally available. I ask the House to give greater weight to those considerations than to a rather formalistic conception of discipline. Discipline is a good thing; it is sometimes a necessary thing, but it is not everything.

I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will give careful consideration to the arguments put up by Senator Rowlette and Senator Kingsmill Moore in support of the amendment. It seems to me that there could be another way of getting round the difficulty and the danger of subordination, and the other problems envisaged, without making it normal practice for the midwife to call in the local medical officer of health. But there may be occasions when, for fear of offending against the law, she may make a delay which will cost a woman's life or cause untold suffering to her and, perhaps, the loss of her baby. For this reason, I think the whole section should be recast so as to make plain the purpose in the Parliamentary Secretary's mind. It may be normal that the medical officer of health of the dispensary district should be called in by the midwife, but the midwife should not be prevented from calling in another doctor. The section deals with emergency cases. We should not give the midwife an added responsibility by a drastic rule like this. I feel that, in drafting the amendment, Senator Rowlette was inspired, as he always is, by the most humanitarian and high-minded principles. I can speak with some knowledge of Senator Rowlette, because it has been my privilege for the past eight years, with Senator Foran, to work with him on national health matters in which, we expect, the Parliamentary Secretary takes a great interest. The Parliamentary Secretary has been responsible for progress which, in effect, is epoch-making in our conception of national health aims and attainments. Senator Rowlette has immense knowledge of these principles which those of us feel always inspired him, and his long association with the medical life of this country may impress the Minister to give due consideration to the difficulties which may arise if the section, as it stands, is allowed to go on the Statute Book.

It seems to me that the sub-section might be recast somewhat on the lines of the first sub-section which reads:—

"Where a midwife attends at a child-birth, in which any emergency specified in rules made under this Act occurs, she shall call into her assistance in accordance with such rules a registered medical practitioner."

Normally that would be the medical officer of health, and I think it is what the Parliamentary Secretary has in mind. I would appeal to him not to put on the Statute Book this very drastic limitation of her power to call in another doctor if she wishes, where the life of woman and child and, if she survives, her future health, may be in question. As a woman I am naturally interested in this question and I would appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to consider it in the light of the considerations that have been laid before him.

I should like to add my voice in support of the very eloquent appeal of Senator Kingsmill Moore and the very able case made by Senators Concannon and Rowlette. I want to say that the Bill is an excellent one. It is timely and it is extremely necessary but the amendment suggested by Senator Dr. Rowlette makes the Bill a good deal better. If, as Senator Kingsmill Moore said, the heads of the chief maternity hospitals in Dublin are on the side of the amendment, I think that, apart from anything I might say, ought to influence the Parliamentary Secretary. If these men with their vast experience and knowledge believe that the amendment would improve the Bill, it ought to have some weight with the Parliamentary Secretary. I sincerely hope that he will adopt the suggestion of Senator Mrs. Concannon that, if he is not willing to accept the amendment, he might recast the whole section in the Bill. As I stated at the outset, the Bill is a good Bill but in my opinion it would make it still better if the Parliamentary Secretary would put in a provision to ensure that people who required the services of the local authority can get the best service available in their need. The matter has been well expounded by previous speakers and I shall not go further into it. It is only right and proper in view of the declining birthrate and the appalling death-rate that the provision should be enshrined in the Bill so as to enable the poor to get the best medical service available in time of need. It would help very materially if the Parliamentary Secretary would either accept the amendment or adopt the suggestion put forward by Senator Mrs. Concannon to recast the section.

I am sorry I cannot see any justification for the implications read into this section by Senator Kingsmill Moore. The amendment is to delete sub-section (8) of the section. Let us picture what would be the position if that section were deleted. What would be the position of a midwife in the country? To my mind, this Bill will affect rural areas very largely or areas other than municipal areas like Dublin where the maternity hospitals will not be at all concerned with the application of this Bill. Here we are concerned with the assistance rendered by a midwife in an entirely rural dispensary district.

If the sub-section is deleted and the midwife has reason to call in a registered medical practitioner as specified in sub-section 1, there may be several practitioners besides the dispensary doctor living in the vicinity or within a very narrow radius. How is she going to select which of these she will call in? If she is to select a practitioner other than the dispensary doctor, will the other doctors not immediately criticise her action? I can see much difficulty arising if that sub-section be deleted. If she has to call in a doctor why should she not call in the dispensary doctor who has been selected for that position by the higher members of his own profession sitting on a selection board? I suggest that there should be an obligation on her to call in first the person who has been appointed by the Government through the Local Appointments Commission to carry out the duties of dispensary doctor. For instance, if a gynæcological expert were spending his holidays in the district would she be supposed to call him in in preference to anybody else? The phraseology of the section is plain, that her first selection should be the local dispensary doctor. If he is not available I think Senator Kingsmill Moore said that she should get a neighbouring dispensary doctor.

I did not say that.

I am quite satisfied. If he is not available, the only thing that seems to matter is how she is to estimate the degree of availability. I think there are rules to be framed under this section and I fancy that the more or less reasonable people who will frame those rules will hold that availability means that if the doctor were out on the other side of the village on another case, the midwife, knowing that half-hours, quarter-hours or even minutes might make all the difference, would then be free to call in another practitioner in the town or from another dispensary district. I cannot see why the Legislature should remove from the midwife the obligation of first calling in the aid of the medical practitioner appointed to carry out the duties of the dispensary district and selected for that position by the higher members of the profession in the country. It might put her in a very awkward position if she were at liberty to select somebody other than a dispensary doctor. Doctors are human just like the rest of us and jealousies would immediately arise if she were given that liberty.

A doctor would ask: "What authority had the midwife to select Dr. So-and-So instead of me; he is not a dispensary doctor any more than I am." That would create a lot of friction, and friction can occur amongst members of the medical profession as well as amongst other members of the community. I cannot see, therefore, why such a lot of stress should be laid on this section. I think it is reasonable to provide that the midwife should first call in the aid of the person who was appointed specifically to come to her aid if she requires it. If he is not available, the question of availability then arises. If she calls in the aid of the dispensary doctor and he is called away to the other side of the parish, she would then be entitled to call in any other practitioner in the town. On that interpretation, I think the sub-section is quite reasonable, and I cannot see any objection to it.

In his Second Reading speech in the Seanad the Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that the Dáil had made substantial amendments to the Bill and "if Senators feel they can further improve it I shall be very glad indeed of their assistance in trying to make it a better measure than it appears to be." I do very strongly and urgently urge him, joining my voice with that of Senator Mrs. Concannon and of Senator Foran, to listen to this appeal. It is not a political appeal. It is an appeal made in the highest interest of humanity. Those who have already spoken in favour of it show that there is nothing whatever political about it. Senator Kingsmill Moore mentioned that he had consulted certain gynæcologists in the city with regard to the matter. I consulted a lady whose experience in organising nursing and midwifery over the whole of Ireland must be unique. I explained to her without giving my own opinion previously what was being proposed. She stated: "That is not so at present." I said: "No, it is a proposed change in the law."

It is not too much to say that she was horrified. She said: "You must get that altered if you possibly can." I answered: "Why?" She said: "I can think of no more disastrous step for child welfare, for the bringing of children into this world, than for an amendment of that sort." I again said: "Why?" She said that the dispensary doctor may be a more expert obstetrician than another available doctor or vice versa but, in a matter of this kind, the choice must be left to the patient. She said that it is always unprofessional conduct for any nurse to influence a patient in the choice of a doctor. It is a fundamental rule of the nursing service. I need not reiterate the arguments that have been urged already.

Senator Kingsmill Moore mentioned the question of discipline. There, again, the higher interest of humanity, the getting of the best service at that particular time completely overrides any possible injury to discipline. A question was also raised about the fee. The mere amount of money, whatever the sum may be, must be cast aside entirely compared with the importance of getting the best service. A rich person can afford to choose his or her doctor and has the right to do that. Here we are dealing with comparatively poor people, and that is why I am glad Senator Foran spoke so strongly in favour of the amendment. Why should a person because she is poor have to jeopardise the life of herself and the life of her infant because she cannot afford the doctor she wants? Under the proposal a midwife may be required by the Minister to bring in a less experienced doctor. I strongly appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary, in the spirit of his own words, which I have quoted, to adopt the amendment in some way or other, whether by accepting Senator Rowlette's amendment, as suggested by Mrs. Concannon, or by adopting another form of wording which will equally meet the point at issue.

Sometimes I feel after listening to debates here we must be very far removed from the realities of life. While discussing this section some speakers gave me the impression that some terrible grievance must exist among midwives on account of this section or that some grave hardship is going to be inflicted upon others. We must have a little commonsense and understanding about the position as this event is not one that takes place without due notice. We know that the expectant mother consults the nurse some months previous to the event and the local dispensary doctor if it is a case for medical assistance. In almost every case an arrangement is come to, if the dispensary doctor is not available on a particular day on which the event is expected, for another doctor to be available. We heard statements to-day rather critical of dispensary doctors and their ability to carry on this work, but we know that in many cases well-to-do people, who could afford their own doctors, prefer to get the dispensary doctor in cases of child birth, because of their wide knowledge and experience. One would imagine from Senator Kingsmill Moore that midwives were deprived of the opportunity to secure an outside doctor if such were necessary and that if the dispensary doctor was not available they must first scour the country to find out where he was before another doctor could be called in. That is not the case. The Senator shakes his head and suggests that that is not exactly what he meant to convey. If it is not what he meant to convey, what are his objections to the Bill?

The Bill says that where a midwife has to call a doctor to her assistance she shall forthwith report the nature of the emergency and the name of the practitioner to the local supervising authority. What Senator Kingsmill-Moore fears is that in the absence of a dispensary doctor the midwife may be at a disadvantage in regard to calling in some other doctor. That is not so. If we pass this amendment what we would be doing would be reorganising the whole dispensary system. I hope that it will be done in the near future. If we held that a dispensary doctor is not the proper person to call in, and that the midwife must have the right to call in any doctor she wishes, I put it to Senators that persons suffering from any other illness and entitled to get free medical service should have the same choice.

Not alone should they have the same choice—and I hope Senator Rowlette will agree with this—but when they get a ticket, and when it is presented to any doctor he should be compelled to attend them. That point has not been brought out. No doctor need attend in this case except the dispensary doctor, and therefore it is essential that midwives should be compelled to call him. Any other doctor could object to coming if he did not think he was going to get a fee or if he thought it was going to be a critical case that he would not like to undertake. The Bill is a reasonable one, and I think it would be unwise to accept the amendment.

I should not like to put my limited experience against the opinions expressed by men of the capacity of Senator Rowlette. But, from a little experience which came to my notice some time ago, I think it would be somewhat dangerous to give too much power to a midwife as to the choice of doctor in such cases. I learned that, in an area in County Clare, the dispensary doctor had occasion to tick off a midwife on some occasion. She took great umbrage at whatever remarks he made in the course of his professional duties and became very resentful. A new and very inexperienced doctor came into the area and she diverted her choice from the resident dispensary doctor on almost every occasion and called in the young and inexperienced doctor, not because she thought he was the more skilled man but because she had developed a spleen and animus against the dispensary doctor. That might not occur in many cases, but there is a danger of it, and I think that it would be rather a serious matter to put that power in the hands of a midwife. Most of the dispensary doctors have been selected by the Appointments Commission, and it is the duty of that commission—we must assume that it does it in all cases— to see that the doctor is proficient in all the arts of his profession. In such circumstances, I should not like to give any midwife authority to override her duty to call on him when available.

If I intervene for a moment, it may save time. Some of the Senators who have spoken during the past few minutes have completely mistaken the position. Senator Honan has just remarked that it would be dangerous to give the midwife this liberty. There is no question of giving the midwife liberty. The question before the House, as postulated by the Parliamentary Secretary, is whether the midwife should be deprived of the liberty she has enjoyed during the past 26 years. Senator O'Donovan fell into the same blunder as Senator Honan as regards the nature of the amendment. He asked where the amendment, if adopted, would leave the law. Exactly where it is and where it has been for the past 26 years. Nothing untoward occurred in the countryside in this connection during that period.

Senator Honan has quoted a case.

It is not relevant. Senator Honan referred to a difference between two persons—we do not know whether one of them was the dispensary doctor or not. The midwife exercised a choice. We do not know whether she exercised wisely or not. The Senator says that she exercised it because of spleen. That is a judgment which we are not able to follow. It may be true or it may not. The dangers that are frightening Senator O'Donovan and with which the Parliamentary Secretary tried to frighten us all a few days ago have not occurred. Friction does occur between doctors and midwives as between other people. Friction occurs occasionally between Senators. It is suggested that even amongst Ministers friction occurs but, of course, I do not believe that. This position has obtained for 26 years and what I am now asking the House to do is to leave it as it is—to leave midwives free to exercise their judgment, or to misuse their conscience if that is what they want to do. But that they should have freedom and responsibility, I have no doubt. To fix responsibility in this case by statute of the Oireachtas seems to me to be a monstrous liberty to take with human life.

Senator Hawkins referred to the fact that a birth is ordinarily expected in or about a certain time. I was very interested in the knowledge of the physiology of maternity shown both by my colleague Senator Kingsmill Moore and Senator Hawkins. Senator Hawkins seems to think that a parturient woman is able, with the help of a midwife or confidential neighbours, to fix, within a day or a week, the time of the expected birth. Sometimes, it is not possible to fix that time even within a month. To say that she is able to arrange to have a midwife or a dispensary doctor there to the tick of the moment, is all nonsense. The Senator will excuse me for saying that. Things do not happen that way. Births come precipitately. Hæmorrhage oftentimes precedes the birth. Accidents may occur with very little warning. Yet, Senators have been talking as if a matter of hours or days was of no importance. Minutes may be of importance to the lives of two persons. Are we, for the sake of some imaginary point of discipline, after the experience of 26 years, to risk the lives of two persons at a most important crisis for both? I hope the House will not give its support to the proposal to reverse the law against humanity as it is proposed to do in the section which we are discussing.

May I correct a misapprehension which has, evidently, crept in regarding what I have been saying. I am in entire agreement with Senator Hawkins that, when the midwife has ascertained that the dispensary doctor is not available, she will be at liberty to call in some other practitioner. My point is that emergencies occur without warning, a midwife may not know whether the dispensary doctor is available or not and may not be able to ascertain whether or not he is available for a couple of hours. The dispensary doctor may not have a telephone and may live at a considerable distance. In circumstances such as those, if we are to read the section strictly, the midwife would have to go to the length of sending for the dispensary doctor, on the assumption that he was available, when she might have, within a distance of half a mile, a non-dispensary doctor who could deal with the emergency and save the life.

The last remark by Senator Kingsmill Moore brings a point to mind which requires clarification. The section says:—

"Where a midwife attends at a childbirth in which any emergency specified in rules made under this Act occurs...."

Therefore an emergency situation such as indicated by Senator Kingsmill Moore does not arise. He spoke of an emergency occurring in the street or on a tram or bus or something else. But according to the clause here it is apparent to my lay mind that the question is one of a hæmorrhage or something that cannot be controlled. According to the phraseology the emergency occurs at the child-birth. It is not an emergency which has caused the child-birth.

I did not mean that. You may have a perfectly normal birth which suddenly turns wrong. You may have a hæmorrhage at any moment. These things may come out of the blue and what are you going to do if you are going to scour the country looking for a dispensary doctor maybe nine miles away, when the emergency is actually at hand?

I think that is an exaggeration.

Senator Dr. Rowlette has, to my mind, made a very good case. If this clause will, to some extent, endanger human life I think the Seanad ought to consider the passing of it very seriously—ought to consider the passing of any clause that would give any semblance of danger to human life. I do not agree fully with all Senator Dr. Rowlette has said because I am aware of midwives and doctors living like cats and dogs. We had, in fact, a very prominent law case some years ago regarding a midwife who had a libel case because she had one doctor's preference as against another. You are sure to find a lot of difference between midwives and doctors. So far as the inclusion of this clause may cause danger to any human beings I think the Parliamentary Secretary should consider whether he will press that clause. I do not really understand why it is essential for midwives to have a particular local dispensary doctor.

I may recall that Séamus O'Kelly wrote a famous play entitled The Bribe, which arose out of a situation something like we are now discussing here. It is a well known fact, in the country at any rate, particularly in the case of pregnant women, that they take likes and dislikes to certain doctors. I would not like to be a party to making it compulsory upon any woman who is going to give birth to a child to accept the local dispensary doctor. If it is going to be made obligatory on a local midwife to have a certain doctor, that, in my opinion, is going to have repercussions which we might well avoid.

There is not, of course, any political aspect to this matter. It is, I am sure, purely a humanitarian matter and in so far as it is humanitarian and concerns danger to life, I will support Senator Dr. Rowlette's amendment. I would not say, of course, that the Parliamentary Secretary in this matter is himself not humanitarian or that because a person is a Parliamentary Secretary or a Minister he should not happen to have some humanitarian feelings. I am not saying that all the humanitarian feelings happen to be on the left-hand side of this House, but I am sure that when the Parliamentary Secretary is quite aware of the implications arising out of the clause he may think differently. I am pre-disposed at the moment to vote in favour of the amendment.

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary a question: does the sub-section as it stands apply to private patients of the midwife?

There is nothing in the Bill to show that it does not.

There is one point I do not follow in connection with a case such as Senator Honan has mentioned, about midwives consistently looking for a dispensary doctor. Surely there are ample powers of dealing with the midwife, and surely it is better to risk a case happening such as Senator Honan mentioned rather than risk the very much more serious danger, that might result otherwise.

I think I have scarcely ever observed such confusion of thought regarding any matter as I have observed in the discussion on this Bill. It is true that I invited the co-operation of the House and I still would welcome the co-operation of the House in improving this measure, but if I invited the co-operation of the House to improve the Bill I did not invite co-operation—I must resist any attempt to mislead the House in this matter—I did not invite co-operation in amending this Bill in such a way as to very seriously take from its effectiveness and to create other repercussions and difficulties that I shall have to deal with in order that the minds of Senators may be clearer on the matter than they appear to be.

Whether that confusion of thought to which I have referred is to be attributed to my failure to explain the Bill at greater length, I am not prepared to say. How far it may be due to what I consider to be misleading statements, by Senator Rowlette particularly, is a matter which the Seanad can also decide when I have made my case. I do not desire at all to charge Senator Rowlette with deliberately misleading the House but I think that he did not fully inform himself on this matter. I do know, and such knowledge makes one suspicious, that he is particularly hostile to the Department of Local Government and Public Health.

May I protest, Sir? That is a statement without a shadow of proof.

Well, the Senator denies it and I must accept his denial, but I have formed that impression—with what justification is another matter.

The Senator complained in his speech yesterday about being scolded. Now I derive no particular pleasure out of scolding Dr. Rowlette or anyone else; no pleasure at all. If Senator Rowlette feels that he has been scolded I feel that the scolding was merited. I scolded him because I felt that he yielded to his hostile feelings which I am glad to hear him deny.

On a point of order, surely when a Senator denies that he has any such hostile feelings, it is not in order to challenge that denial.

The Parliamentary Secretary has not challenged it, Senator.

I understood him to challenge it. I am glad to hear I am wrong. I accept that.

It is my business here to try to put the facts before the House as they appear to me, to try to prevent members of the House, whether they have fully informed themselves, or whether they have not fully and completely informed themselves, from misleading the House on important issues.

In the course of his speech on the Second Reading in this House, Senator Rowlette described Section 46 as being thoroughly mischievous. That phrasing was not particularly happy, and whether it was an accurate description or not we shall see as we pass on:

"There is another clause which the Parliamentary Secretary passed over very lightly. It is thoroughly mischievous and interferes with the efficiency of the whole midwifery service in the country. The Midwives Bill, 1918, which was passed by a foreign Parliament, but a Parliament which had a great deal more care for the health of the country than any Government so far in this country, although we hoped for much better 20 years ago, had one great advantage."

Now, perhaps, I am too sensitive on these matters, but I consider that that was a thoroughly mischievous statement, and inconsistent with the facts. Senator Rowlette may be sad of heart because the benevolent foreign Parliament of 1918 no longer regulates our destinies.

On a point of order, Sir, is that observation relevant to the Bill that is now before the House?

I am speaking to the Chair, and not to the Senator, personally.

We do not want personal abuse of the representatives in this House.

It seems to me that the Parliamentary Secretary is controverting a statement of which he does not approve, and which he believes is not just.

No, Sir. I suggest that the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary has to do with my politics of 25 years ago, and that it suggests that I am still regretting the conditions that existed 25 years ago. I submit that that has no relevance to the Midwives Bill, and that it is merely a personal reflection on me, as well as being irrelevant.

I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should proceed to deal with the amendment under discussion, and not with other matters?

That is all we want.

Very well, Sir, I shall proceed to deal with the sections of the Bill that is before us at the moment. Other sections will follow and, presumably, we shall have to deal with the Bill as a whole, eventually. However, I might mention, before we leave this period of 1918, that in this charter of protection for the future mothers of the race, which was given to us by a foreign Parliament, there were certain other things.

And they are all frightfully irrelevant so far as this section is concerned also.

The one string that Senator Rowlette harped on consistently throughout the debate, both on Second Reading and on the Committee Stage, was that a foreign Parliament had made excellent provision for us.

Will the Parliamentary Secretary address himself to the section that is now before the House, and drop this tirade about a "foreign Parliament."

In column 1109, of volume 28 of the Official Report, Senator Rowlette is reported as having said:—

"In the past, the Legislature which passed the 1918 Bill was anxious that there should be the best treatment available and the best conditions."

Is it relevant to quote that?

No. I suggest that it is quite irrelevant to keep harping back on these things.

Perhaps the Senator would bear in mind that he is not in the Chair: that I am in possession at the moment, and that he should address his remarks to the Chair.

The Senator is supporting the ruling of the Chair.

I am not in the Chair, and I presume that it will not offend against the sense of order of a number of very orderly Senators if I refer briefly to the provisions actually made in the Act of 1918. Inasmuch as the Bill before the House purports to replace the Act of 1918, and inasmuch as it has been made to appear to the House that, in certain respects, this Bill is a retrograde step, I think we must advert to the terms of the Act of 1918, and must satisfy ourselves if, in fact, and to what extent, this Bill is a retrograde step.

That is, provided that it is within the particular point that is being discussed.

Hear, hear.

Yes, within the Chairman's discretion. Now, Section 22 of the Midwives (Ireland) Act, 1918, says:

"In case of an emergency, as defined in the rules of the board under this Act, a midwife shall call in to her assistance a registered medical practitioner, and the local supervising authority shall (unless the patient is entitled to medical relief under Section 9 of the Poor Law Relief (Ireland) Act, 1851), pay to such medical practitioner a fee according to a scale to be fixed by the Local Government Board."

Now, I would ask Senators to let the terms of that section sink in. The midwife was authorised to call in any medical practitioner. There is no doubt whatever about that, but if the case were a poor law case, that medical practitioner could not be paid a fee. Senator Rowlette, of course, is aware of that, and so is Senator Kingsmill Moore, but there are Senators here who have not been following this debate sufficiently closely to realise that that was, in fact, the position under this charter of protection, about which we have heard so much, which was passed by a foreign Parliament in 1918—if that is in order. In this particular connection, sub-section 1 of Section 46, of the Bill says:

"Where a midwife attends at a childbirth in which any emergency specified in rules made under this Act occurs, she shall call in to her assistance, in accordance with such rules, a registered medical practitioner."

So far, I think we are fairly well in step with the Act of 1918. There is no restriction in that section whatever on the midwife in calling in a registered medical practitioner. Before we come to sub-section (8) I would like to draw the attention of the House to sub-section (3):—

"Where a registered medical practitioner has, in response to a call made by a midwife under this section, attended in any emergency, the practitioner may report the nature of the emergency to the local supervising authority for the district in which he attended and thereupon such local supervising authority shall pay to the practitioner the appropriate fee."

I ask Senators to note that where a practitioner is called in, the local supervising authority shall pay the appropriate fee. Then, we come to the sub-section which Senator Rowlette asked us to delete. It reads:

"Nothing in sub-section (1) of this section or any rules made for the purpose of that sub-section shall be construed...."

I would ask the close attention of the House to the phrasing of this sub-section:—

"...as preventing the Minister from requiring a midwife of a dispensary district when calling in to her assistance, under this section, a registered medical practitioner, to call in the medical officer of such district if he is available."

Nothing in the subsection shall be construed as depriving the Minister of the power that he has under the Public Assistance Act of 1939. Is that a reasonable provision, yet is it suggested to the House that we should make this innocuous-looking but most radical amendment of the Public Assistance Act of 1939? In order that the House may realise where the amendment would lead us, I shall have to ask its indulgence to draw attention to the regulations which have been made under that Act before they deprive the Minister of the power of making such regulations. Before passing from sub-section (1) of Section 46, I will direct the attention of the House to the phrasing of it, as it is important.

"Where a midwife attends at child-birth in which any emergency...."

Senator O'Donovan staggered very near to understanding this. "Any emergency", mark you—

"specified in rules made under this Act occurs, she shall call in to her assistance in accordance with such rules a registered medical practitioner".

Senators do not appear to appreciate the wide scope of the type of emergency specified in the rules——

Have the rules been made yet, Sir?

The rules are in operation. They are the rules of the Central Midwives' Board.

You are going to adopt the same rules?

The rules remain operative and unalterable unless the Central Midwives' Board alters them. The Minister has no power to alter them.

Thank you very much.

In the 1935 Rules (e), page 6, under the heading "Sending for Medical Aid" it is provided in No. 12a:—

"In all cases of illness of the patient or child or of any abnormality occurring during pregnancy, labour, or lying-in, a midwife must forthwith call in a registered medical practitioner."

I think that is much wider in scope than many members of the House realise. It is not only the type of emergency which Senator Kingsmill Moore referred to—a sudden emergency like a hæmorrhage or something of that kind where little warning might be given—but in all cases of illness of the patient or child, or in any abnormality occurring during pregnancy, the midwife is under an obligation to call in a medical practitioner. So much for that.

Might I raise a question? Does the Bill now before us confine the midwife to the local dispensary doctor? Is he not a registered medical practitioner? Is not that the whole point?

I shall come to the whole point before I am finished—I have not come to it yet.

I think we had better hear the Parliamentary Secretary without interruption.

I submit to the House that the deletion of sub-section (8) would drive a coach-and-four through our whole scheme of medical attendance of women in childbirth under the Public Assistance Act, and I shall have to refer the House to the regulations made under that Act. Regulation No. 10 (1) sets out:

"A visiting medical assistance ticket issued in the form No. 2 in the schedule to this Order, in a case of midwifery shall be deemed to cast on the medical officer of a dispensary district receiving it a full and undivided responsibility for the care of the case..."

Senators will note that it is a statutory obligation:—

"...notwithstanding the fact that a midwife is appointed for the service of the district, and the fact that the services of the midwife are available shall not be deemed to relieve the medical officer from responsibility."

The medical officer himself is responsible, and the patient has the choice of calling the medical officer in the first instance without summoning the midwife. If he is called, he is under statutory obligation to go. Sub-section (3) of Section 10 states:—

"The following provisions shall apply in all cases in which medical assistance is required by medical assistance ticket for women in labour:—

(i) the ticket should ordinarily be addressed to the midwife of the dispensary district;

(ii) the ticket, if in the form No. 2 in the Schedule to this Order, shall be presented to the medical officer of the dispensary district, who shall register it and ascertain by visiting the patient that the case is one of natural labour;

(iii) if it should appear on such visit that the case is likely to be attended with any difficulty or danger, the medical officer of the dispensary district shall take charge of the case himself, and may also requisition the services of the midwife of the dispensary district; but if the medical officer is satisfied that the case is one of normal labour, he may place the midwife in attendance directing her that should anything abnormal or dangerous arise, she shall immediately call for his assistance;".

And again:—

"(v) if, in any case attended upon a ticket whether in the form No. 2, or the form No. 3 in the Schedule to this Order, the midwife of the dispensary district finds it necessary to call for the assistance of the medical officer of the dispensary district, and shall intimate in writing the same to him, the medical officer shall immediately take charge of the case."

And now, as to some of the duties prescribed for the medical officer of a dispensary district in relation to attendance on women in childbirth:—

"(9) To inspect at the end of each quarter of the year, the register of cases attended by the midwife of the dispensary district and to see that the same is properly entered up by her and to authenticate the same by his initials with the initial of the date of inspection.

(18) To report to the public assistance authority or to the Minister any neglect or failure on the part of the...midwife or the dispensary nurse to discharge punctually and properly the duties appertaining to their offices."

Among the duties prescribed for the midwife of the dispensary district under the Public Assistance Code are:—

"(4) To summon in writing the medical officer of the district in any case of midwifery upon which she is in attendance in which his assistance becomes necessary.

(5) On the termination of any midwifery cases in which the assistance of the medical officer of the district has not been called for, to report the result to the medical officer of the district."

There are more of these regulations to complete the scheme of organisation under the Public Assistance Act to provide for women in childbirth. The amendment before the House proposes that the Minister's power to make these regulations be withdrawn and that that radical change in the whole Public Assistance Code should be brought about in this way. I submit to the House that, whatever may be said as to the merits of the case that might be made for the amendment of the Public Assistance Code, such a radical change cannot be brought about by this innocent-looking amendment in the name of Senator Rowlette.

I should also mention for the guidance of the House and in the hope that the members of the House, notwithstanding what has been said to them by various speakers, will appreciate it, that so far from this Bill being a retrograde step it is an advance. It is an advance in this way. As I have shown the House already, under Section 22 of the Act of 1918, if a practitioner other than a dispensary medical officer were called in in a poor law case, no fee could be paid but, under this Bill, when it becomes law, if it should become law in its present form, if a practitioner other than the medical officer is called in, when the medical officer of the district is not available, the local authority shall pay him a fee. The medical profession is a philanthropic body of men but at the same time I think in this age, it is too much to expect the type of service we were asked to believe we would get under an Act that did not provide for any payment for the service.

There is one other matter closely related to this to which I should like to draw Senators' attention because I want to satisfy the House that, in so far as the poor are concerned, we are making absolute and complete provision for proper attendance on poor women in childbirth, a more complete provision for the poor woman in childbirth than is being made for any other woman in childbirth, for this reason, that if she desires to have a doctor in the first instance, instead of a nurse, the doctor must attend and she can have both the nurse and the doctor. It does not finish there. Article 14 of the Regulations for the Government of Dispensary Districts sets out.

"Whenever, in the course of his attendance upon dispensary patients a case arises which, in the opinion of the medical officer of a dispensary district, necessitates his obtaining the assistance of another medical practitioner, the medical officer may, on his own authority, summon the assistance of such other medical practitioner and shall thereupon report fully in writing the circumstances to the public assistance authority."

Not only can she have the services of the dispensary doctor but if he finds himself in any difficulty, she can have the services of any doctor he thinks fit to summon as consultant. Senator Rowlette must have known that, and I feel he has not been fair——

I quoted that.

The Senator quoted so many things and made so many speeches that he seemed to me in the end to have said nothing. Mention has been made by more than one Senator —by Senator Kingsmill Moore and by Senator O'Sullivan in particular—that they have consulted various people outside this House who should be competent to judge on this matter. I do not suggest that in that particular matter they are attempting to mislead the House, but I do want to say that I have consulted the Central Midwives Board and that this Bill, which has been described by many good judges as one of the best measures of its kind in existence in Europe to-day, is the result of these joint discussions.

Would the Parliamentary Secretary tell us who these people are?

I can name a few of them off-hand.

That is sufficient.

Four of them are registered medical practitioners. The chairman until December last was Dr. Corbet. He has I think gone across to England since and resigned from the chairmanship. He was then Master of the Coombe Hospital. Two of the present members are Dr. John F. Cunningham, ex-Master of Holles Street Hospital, and Dr. Ninian Falkiner, the present Master of the Rotunda. There is also Dr. Mulhall of Cork. There are then a number of representatives of nurses and nursing organisations. The nursing organisation submit a panel and the Minister makes the actual selection but I presume it is about the medical men Senators are particularly concerned. As I was saying, we have had exchanges and long conferences on this particular problem. I have been in conference with the chairman of the Central Midwives Board. I must draw the attention of the House to the fact that as a result of these conferences and these exchanges of view, the Bill has been radically amended. The debate to which I have listened in this House is based on the Bill as it was originally introduced in the Dáil and not on the Bill as it now stands.

Does the Parliamentary Secretary state that all these men are in favour of this clause?

The Parliamentary Secretary stated that he has had discussions with the Central Midwives Board, that he has had conferences with the chairman of the Central Midwives Board, that he has a letter before him from the chairman of the Central Midwives Board——

The present chairman?

The present chairman is not long in office. This Bill was drafted before the present chairman came into office.

On a point of order, I ask that the Parliamentary Secretary should produce the paper and the letter he is quoting from.

I was not aware that I was quoting from any paper.

Mr. Sweetman rose.

Order, please.

I rise to a point of order and I submit that I am entitled to be heard.

Yes, Senator, a point of order takes precedence.

When the Parliamentary Secretary mentions that he had a letter before him from certain people am I or any other Senator not in order in asking that he should quote from that letter?

Did he say that he had the letter before him?

If he did not, that is the end of it. I am merely asking the question.

As far as I am aware the Parliamentary Secretary did not quote from a document. He mentioned the fact that he had a document but did not quote.

I also want to inform the House on that particular point that the Central Midwives' Board met on December 20, 1943, and accepted my amendment. It was then Section 47 and the agreed amendments were incorporated in the measure.

Had the chairman then left Ireland? The chairman had left the country. Of that of course, I am aware but was it before it or after it?

Before it.

Then you had not his authority for these amendments?

The meeting took place before the late chairman, Dr. Corbet, left the country.

I beg your pardon, I thought you said the opposite a moment ago.

As far as my information goes, my amendment was unanimously accepted by the Central Midwives' Board.

I do not like to interrupt. I saw Dr. Corbet and I understand that he accepted the Minister's amendments faut de mieux, under the threat of immediate and terrible war, so to speak, because he could not get anything better.

Oh, really. I suppose Senator Kingsmill Moore with his legal training would naturally make the best case he can for his client.

My clients are the people of Ireland in this case.

Let us not go into that very delicate and dangerous ground. There area lot of people here whose clients are the people of Ireland.

Let us, who want to get information about this matter, get the information that you have.

Section 47 as it was introduced in the Dáil read as follows:—

"Where a midwife attends at a childbirth in which any emergency specified in rules made under this Act occurs, she shall call in to her assistance in accordance with such rules a registered medical practitioner and such practitioner shall, if the midwife is attending the patient in the course of her duties as a midwife of a dispensary district, be the medical officer of such district, if available."

There was statutory obligation in the original draft to call in the medical officer of the dispensary district. There is nothing in the Bill before the House putting statutory obligation upon the midwife to call in the dispensary doctor. Even Senator Kingsmill Moore will agree with that.

I do and I pointed it out long ago.

But as I have shown to the House the Minister has certain power under the Public Assistance Act. A clause was put into this Bill merely declaring that nothing in the Bill was to deprive the Minister of his powers under the Public Assistance Act. That is all that is in this Bill in relation to the Public Assistance Act.

May a person who is not in all this acrimony ask the Parliamentary Secretary, what is the difference between what is actually in the Bill and what is in the draft which was not acceptable to certain people? Under the draft the midwife was compelled to call in the dispensary doctor if he was available, and under this Act is there any difference?

That is a reasonable question. Under this Bill—

"Where a midwife attends at a childbirth in which any emergency specified in rules made under this Act occurs, she shall call in to her assistance in accordance with such rules a registered medical practitioner."

The point at issue, and to which the Central Midwives Board objected, was the putting on them of a statutory obligation to take certain disciplinary action, if the midwife failed to carry out her duties under the Public Assistance Act, they said, and properly said: "That is not a matter for us. We are concerned with the discipline and control of midwives in general, and you must find some other way of making her obey your rule under the Public Assistance Code." It seemed reasonable and I said: "All right, you do not seek to deprive us of any statutory powers." They said: "No, but do not put a statutory obligation on us to do something which is not our job to do."

Would it be wrong to ask what is the meaning of "available"? This power has been in operation for some years, since 1939.

Since 1939 and before.

How is it worked? What is the meaning of "available" in general terms?

I will try to deal with that. Clearly we cannot define "availability". In the first place, may I again point out that this was the law and is the law to-day? There was no power to pay any other doctor who was called in in the past. Under this Bill he can be paid if it was not possible to get the dispensary doctor.

That is an improvement.

The degree of the emergency will have to be determined by the midwife on the spot. That is the first test that has to be applied. The second test will be a matter for the local authority. She will have to report that there was such and such an emergency, that it was acute and immediate, and that while the dispensary doctor may have been available he was ten miles away, and that there was another doctor only a mile away. In the circumstances, the dispensary doctor was not available for meeting the particular emergency and no local authority would hold that he was. That is my opinion with regard to interpreting "availability".

But the Parliamentary Secretary's efforts to interpret the word "availability" are very important since he is voicing a Departmental view. These things do not change when the view is taken Departmentally. They do not alter with the complexion of a political Government. I was not here for the Second Reading debate, but I read the Parliamentary Secretary's speech, and I hope I am not going to get into a row myself.

No, you are all right.

When I read the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks I came to the conclusion that he had no case at all. He began with a good case to-day, but he trampled it in the mud and went back to the Black-and-Tans and all sorts of things.

Be careful of the mud.

The Parliamentary Secretary made a fair case for certain points. One point was that there was no provision for the payment of doctor on a red ticket case other than the dispensary doctor. That is a definite improvement. It seems to me quite honestly that the dispensary doctor could be called in instead of the midwife. It would seem that the dispensary doctor must be called in if he is available. He must be called in before any other doctor can be summoned in case of an emergency and the midwife would know that she will be fairly treated if she does summon another doctor, not being the dispensary doctor. The Parliamentary Secretary appears to me, in his last definition of "availability", to have gone a good way to removing some of the objections to this sub-section. That is to say, in the case of a sudden, unforeseen emergency, the nearest doctor can be called in. So far as I understood, that is what the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary amounted to. If that be the case, it might be possible to put words into this section which would indicate that.

I know that it is difficult to put everything one wants into legislation and that a good deal depends on the way legislation is worked. If this section were worked by the Department in such a way that midwives would be always afraid to move away from the dispensary doctor and call in another doctor, we should, certainly, be doing grave injury to people at a very serious moment of their lives. While we might save a few shillings, it would be a very short-sighted policy and would cost us more in the end. It could not by any means be described as an economy. It seems to me that the case made was a good case. I feel that if the Parliamentary Secretary argued with the Midwives Board in the way he argued with the Seanad, and if they agreed with him, the agreement is not worth much.

That is a very good finish.

I am in entire agreement with the Parliamentary Secretary—having kept in touch with this matter from the angle of the Midwives Board and that of the gynaecological specialists—that the chief objection of the Midwives Board to the section, as introduced, was that the responsibility was cast upon them of acting in a disciplinary manner. Acting as a Midwives Board, but not as gynaecologists or doctors, they said: "You cannot expect us to do this." The Parliamentary Secretary, in response, if my recollection is correct, to representations from Dr. Corbet, said: "I sympathise with that and I will yield to you and alter the section by entrusting the authority for taking disciplinary action over the midwife concerned when she has called somebody else." The Midwives Board did not at any time, nor did the past chairman or the present chairman, agree that, from the medical point of view or the point of view of the health of the people, this was a desirable section. They merely acquiesced in so far as responsibility for enforcing the section which they did not like was taken from them and put on somebody else.

The other point I want to make is this: The Parliamentary Secretary says that, in many respects, this Bill is an advance on the 1918 Act. It is an advance in so far as it makes provision for the payment of the outside doctor who is called in, though I think that, in practice, fees used to be paid to the outside doctors in such circumstances. That was not provided for in the Act, but I think that it was the practice. I do not want the Parliamentary Secretary to ride away on the plea that, because he has made the Bill better in one respect, he is entitled to make it worse in another.

What other?

That which I have been speaking about. In one respect, the Parliamentary Secretary has cleared the air in that he has shown that the term "emergency" is used in a sense other than the popular sense. I venture to agree with him that there are a number of cases which would come within the definition of emergency in his rules in which there would be ample time to call in the dispensary doctor and for the dispensary doctor to call in more skilled assistance if he cared to do so. That term, "emergency," as defined in the rules, covers things that are not ordinarily regarded as emergencies. It does not alter my objection to it in the class of cases which the ordinary person would call "emergency" cases and which are admitted to be not unusual by the Parliamentary Secretary. It covers the case of a woman who is bleeding or in fits and who may die within a matter of minutes or hours if she cannot get prompt attention. If the Parliamentary Secretary does not see his way to withdraw this section as a whole, I should, at least, expect that he would introduce on Report Stage an amendment which would make quite clear that the nurse is not to be hampered by any rules or regulations or any fear of official reprisals if, when she thinks a woman should get attention as quickly as possible, she calls in the nearest doctor, whether he be a dispensary doctor or not.

The Parliamentary Secretary has justified this Bill as an improvement on the 1918 Act on the ground that, under it, the doctor who is called in will get paid. I am certain that the woman and child do not care whether the doctor is paid or not. The fact that the doctor will be paid does not make the least impression on me. If the definition which the Parliamentary Secretary gave of "availability" could be incorporated in the rules governing the application of the Act, it would be acceptable to me, at any rate.

Surely doctors are entitled to be paid. Industrialists do not manufacture goods and give them away.

Senator Hayes agreed with me, for once, that the whole difficulty arises from the interpretation of "availability". I agree with him that the meaning of that word should be amplified. We have spoken of that sufficiently and I do not want to dilate further on it. I should like to draw the attention of the Parliamentary Secretary to the fact that these rules govern a great many conditions antecedent to the actual childbirth. The first line of the section says: "Where a midwife attends at a childbirth..." From the explanation given by the Parliamentary Secretary, these rules govern pre-natal conditions as well. I am always afraid of the lawyers and of the interpretation they will put on Acts of the Oireachtas. There is no use in pointing out what the intention of the Oireachtas was because the lawyer will say: "These are the words in the Act." Therefore, I think that the use of the word "childbirth" is too restricted. Childbirth is a definite occurrence and the rules relate, in addition, to conditions which are antecedent to childbirth. I can imagine Senator Kingsmill Moore going to court and pointing out that these matters are not actually relevant to "childbirth", as set out in the section. I have experience of these points in court. From the rules which the Parliamentary Secretary has read out, I do not think that the word used in the first sub-section is of sufficiently wide scope. As to these differences of opinion between doctors, it turns out that the doctors are not doing too badly under this Bill. It provides that some doctors are to be remunerated for what they formerly did voluntarily.

Could the Parliamentary Secretary explain the position regarding the rules at present? He has rules which apparently are going to be accepted and also rules under this Act. Is there anything in the existing rules covering the point under discussion here and, if there is, would he let us hear it? It would be enlightening to know if there is anything in existence covering this point.

There still seems to be confusion about this. Under the rules made by the Central Midwives Board there is no restriction on a midwife in the calling in of a doctor to her assistance. The restriction is under regulations made by the Minister under the Public Assistance Act. That has nothing to do with the Bill before the House to-day. These regulations could be amended at any time that a case is made for amendment.

Has the Parliamentary Secretary the rules?

I read out the rules under the Public Assistance Act, governing the conduct of doctors and nurses.

Then these are the only rules there are?

I do not quite follow that. Does the Parliamentary Secretary say that there may be new rules covering the definition of "availability" in this case, or do the existing rules cover it?

Existing rules cover it very well.

Then, will the Parliamentary Secretary explain this: if the existing rules cover it, are the existing rules tabled?

They are statutory, of course. They have been tabled.

I am not quite clear on the actual legal position. This controversial sub-section (8) says:—

"Nothing in sub-section (1) of this section or any rules made for the purposes of that sub-section shall be construed as preventing the Minister..."

and so on. Under Section 63 of the Bill, however, it is specified that until rules are made in regard to any particular matter by the board—not by the Minister—the rules made by the former board shall have full effect. I want to deal with this question of the Minister requiring the midwife of a dispensary district to do certain things. How is the Minister going to do that? Is it going to be provided in future rules, and is it going to be applied universally to midwives or to midwives of a particular dispensary district? To my mind it is not clear exactly how it is going to work out.

I am afraid, Senator, that I cannot make the position any more clear than I have done. The Minister has power under the Public Assistance Act to make rules and regulations governing the conduct of dispensary doctors and dispensary midwives. That is completely independent of anything contained in this Act. Sub-section (8) of Section 46 of the Act safeguards the Minister's statutory powers to make these rules and to amend them as he may think fit.

That would be under the Public Assistance Act, 1939?

In Section 46, sub-section (1), it says:—

"Any emergency specified in rules made under this Act..."

and under a subsequent Section it is provided that the rules under this Act are the rules of the former Midwives Board until you make new rules. Is not that so?

Therefore, you must be going to make new rules under this Act?

Not necessarily. The rules are continued. That section has the effect of continuing the existing rules. It is a matter for the board to decide if and when new rules should be made. Nobody other than the board has power to make rules.

Then there will be no wider definition of "availability". Is that the position?

That does not come in at all. It is under the Public Assistance Act.

Then the position is still more complicated from a legislative point of view. If this Bill becomes an Act, the existing rules made by the Central Midwives Board are to continue until new rules are made, but as regards this controversial sub-section (8) any rule made under that sub-section with regard to requiring a midwife to send for the dispensary doctor available, will be decided under a different Act altogether.

And always has been.

I think it is very bad drafting.

I should like to have one point cleared up. We have had a great deal of talk about the Public Assistance Act on this Bill and while I listened with very great care to the Parliamentary Secretary in his defence of his Bill, and in particular of this section I can find nothing material in what he had to say on the point. I found a great deal of irrelevancies but I did find one thing which appeared to weigh strongly in his mind and that was this: that if a certain amendment was carried to this Bill by the wisdom or folly of this House, it would interfere with the working of the Public Assistance Act. I would like to be clear on this point, and perhaps someone could tell me whether the wisdom or the folly of this House is to be restrained by the possibility of the provisions that would be carried being different from those of a previous Act. I do not know what is the relationship between one Act which seems to cut across the line of another Act—what the relationship of a previous Act to this Act may be in actual law when both measures are passed. But the Parliamentary Secretary has stressed how we might drive a coach and four through part of his Public Assistance Act if we were to pass legislation which it might be within the wisdom or folly of the Oireachtas to pass. I have not heard any explanation as to relationship between two Acts passed with an interval of some years between them, or how it might be settled by the courts.

The other point relevant to the clause that I wish to refer to now is to express my real disappointment at the Parliamentary Secretary as a tactician and a debater. He said that he would point out to the House several misleading statements which he said I had made to the House. He did not quote one. I listened with the utmost attention and if he had been able to convince me that I had made a misleading statement, one that was intentionally misleading or a misstatement in fact, I would have admitted that and apologised for it, but he did not refer to one. He referred to various questions on which he was stopped on the rules of order by the Chair. Apart from one issue, the relationship of the Act which seems to be the apple of his eye and which I agree is a good Act— the Public Assistance Act—he did not say one thing that would make one think the section should remain as it is.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 13; Níl, 20.

  • Baxter, Patrick F.
  • Butler, John.
  • Colgan, Michael.
  • Foran, Thomas.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • Kyle, Sam.
  • Moore, T. C. Kingsmill.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • O'Sullivan, Donal.
  • Rowlette, Robert J.
  • Ruane, Seán T.
  • Smyth, Michael.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.

Níl

  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Colbert, Michael B.
  • Corkery, Daniel.
  • Gibbons, Seán.
  • Hawkins, Frederick J. H.
  • Hearne, Michael.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Honan, Thomas V.
  • Johnston, Séamus.
  • Kehoe, Patrick.
  • Kelly, Peter T.
  • Lynch, Peter T.
  • McCabe, Dominick.
  • Magennis, William.
  • O'Donovan, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O Máille, Pádraic.
  • Nic Phiarais, Maighréad M.
  • Stafford, Matthew.
  • Walsh, Thomas.
Tellers:—Tá: Senators Rowlette and Sweetman; Níl: Senators Hawkins and Hearne.
Amendment declared lost.
Section 46 agreed to.
SECTION 47.

I move amendment No. 2:—

In sub-section (3) (c), line 50, after the word "attendance" to insert the words "and any charge that may be made for attendance on such course of instruction".

This amendment is not as far-reaching in its importance as the amendment which the Seanad, in its wisdom, has just defeated, but I think it certainly answers the request of the Parliamentary Secretary that we should try to improve this Bill as much as we could. There are good points in the Bill. I believe the Parliamentary Secretary had a right to congratulate himself a fortnight ago, but I do not think he has any right to congratulate himself now, in view of his determined— I will not say obstinate, because I do not want to say anything that will hurt him—manner of sticking to the letter of the law as he wants to have it.

The amendment before us refers to the courses of instruction which it is intended to make obligatory on certified midwives under Section 47 of the Bill:

"The board may, by rules made under this Act, require midwives to attend from time to time such courses of instruction as may be approved of by the board or provided or arranged by them".

While the board may do so-and-so, it would appear that it is certainly intended in the Parliamentary Secretary's mind, and probably in the minds of all of us, that we should make the making of those rules obligatory, and that midwives should be compelled to attend courses of instruction from time to time. Then, there are certain sub-sections which almost take the place of rules in the matter of attendance. Midwives shall not be required to attend courses of instruction except in accordance with the arrangements made by the local authority in pursuance of sub-section (3) of the section:—

"A local authority by whom a midwife is employed shall, in accordance with such directions as the Minister may give from time to time

(a) grant leave of absence to the midwife to attend any course of instruction to which rules for the purposes of this section relate, and

(b) pay a substitute for the midwife during the attendance and,

(c) pay to the midwife travelling expenses in respect of the attendance (including subsistence allowance during the period of the attendance) in accordance with the relevant regulations...in like manner as if the attendance was part of the official duties of the midwife."

The point about the amendment is that it refers to the question of the expenses which may be legally allowable under this Act to a midwife for her attendance at a course of instruction. She is entitled to leave of absence from her local authority, who may also pay a substitute for her during her attendance and pay travelling expenses, including subsistence allowance. I would like to draw attention to the question of the payment of fees for courses of attendance. Where courses of attendance or, as they are sometimes called, post-graduate courses, are arranged for nurses, there is usually a fee fixed with the full knowledge of the scanty resources which nurses have, but a fee which is necessary to be paid. Under this Bill, apparently, a midwife is not entitled to draw a fee of £10 10s. from the local authority to pay for her course of instruction.

She is entitled to travelling expenses and to the cost of her locum tenens in her district, and under the instructions given by the Department of Local Government, she is entitled also to get reasonable expenses. It is well to quote the circular of the Department issued on the 8th June last year about post-graduate courses for midwives:—

"I am to call attention to the Department's previous circular letter pointing out that midwives in the employment of local authorities should be encouraged to attend such courses and to state that the Minister is prepared to sanction the payment of reasonable expenses to midwives of dispensary districts for travelling and subsistence, in addition to the remuneration of substitutes where it may be necessary to employ them during their absence. Subsistence expenses in excess of £2 10s., in fact, will be considered excessive."

There is some ambiguity, which I daresay is not intended. Subsistence expenses up to £2 10s. are allowed, but the circular does not say whether the course is for a week, a fortnight or a month. Apparently, the limit of £2 10s. is fixed, no matter how long the course may last. Reasonable expenses are left to the discretion of the Department. According to a circular quoted in the Dáil, the Department expresses the opinion that expenses would not be considered reasonable above a certain figure—I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary has it at his finger tip—beyond £2 10s. The point is this: that while the Bill does make provision for payment to nurses or midwives of certain of their expenses it leaves a gap, a hiatus.

In his speech the other day, if I am not mistaken, the scale of £65 to £95 was quoted as the remuneration of dispensary midwives. I suggest to the Seanad that, where the midwife is compelled as part of her duty to attend a course of instruction, it is only right that the local authority in whose service she is should pay whatever out-of-pocket expenses she is obliged to incur. I mentioned this point in the Second Reading debate, but it did not receive any sympathy from the Parliamentary Secretary. In fact he seemed to suggest that, if she was not getting too much under the terms set out in the Bill, she was getting more than she could reasonably expect. I hope I am not misrepresenting him in that, but I think several members of the Seanad, on Second Reading, supported me in the opinion that, where these very ill-paid, hard-worked women were compelled to leave their homes and their private practice, they should at least be paid their out-of-pocket expenses. While the other items of expense legalised by the Bill seem to be, as far as I could judge, fair enough, it seems entirely unjust and harsh to insist on these women taking a holiday from home that they do not wish to take, leaving their private practice and still continuing to pay out of their own pockets for the instruction they will get at whatever school or maternity hospital they will attend. I hope members will have sympathy with that point of view and, while recognising the point strongly urged by several members of the Dáil that we should not put further unnecessary expense upon them, I think it will be agreed that it is but natural justice that the employer should pay the expenses incurred in the efforts of these women to improve their capacity and competence.

As Senator Rowlette has pointed out to the House, the provision in this section is a new provision. Under the section a midwife may be placed under a statutory obligation to take a post-graduate course. As he has also pointed out, and as has been previously mentioned in the House, reasonable provision is being made to ensure that she will not incur any heavy financial loss. She will be given leave of absence, her substitute will be paid, her salary will be continued, her travelling expenses will be paid and she will be entitled to a maintenance allowance not in excess of £2 10s. per week. I understood from Senator Rowlette that, as the words "per week" were not included——

Is it meant to be per week?

Yes, a week is mentioned in the circular to local authorities—"not in excess of £2 10s. 0d. per week". The expenses likely to be incurred in providing these courses of post-graduate instruction, will be, as has already been pointed out by Senator Rowlette, on the small side. It would not impose a serious financial hardship on the midwife if she were asked to bear the expenses. In fact, she will not. Under the terms of the Bill the board have no statutory power to impose that financial obligation on the nurse who is compelled to take a post-graduate course. If expense is incurred in providing or arranging for the post-graduate course, the board will have to bear such expense. It is true that the post-graduate courses that have been conducted in the past —and this may possibly have misled Senator Rowlette—have been arranged by nursing organisations because the Central Midwives Board had no statutory authority to arrange such courses and these nursing organisations, in order to cover their immediate expenses, imposed a fee of, I think, 5/- per nurse. Now that the board is given statutory power to arrange these courses, the board will have to bear the cost and no financial obligation will be imposed on the nurses attending.

I am obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary for his explanation. Am I to understand that the Midwives Board has to arrange and pay for the courses, while the other expenses—providing a substitute, etc.—will be borne by the local authority?

Yes. If any expense is incurred in arranging for a post-graduate course, that will have to be borne by the board out of funds at the disposal of the board and not by the midwife.

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary, since he is in an informative mood, is that in the Bill or in the circular? If this Bill becomes law, will what the Parliamentary Secretary has just told us, be the law?

Under the terms of the Bill as it stands, the Central Midwives Board has no statutory power to impose any fee upon the nurses who will be called upon to attend post-graduate courses.

I am sorry I had to go out of the House before the Parliamentary Secretary spoke and I do not know whether the questions raised have been answered. I should like to know firstly, what is the probable length of the course nurses will have to attend; secondly, what fee, roughly, will they be required to pay; thirdly, for the time the midwife is attending will her salary continue to be paid?

Under Section 47, provision is made empowering the board to arrange for a post-graduate course. Statutory authority is also provided for the payment of the nurse's salary while she is absent.

To her. Provision is also made for the payment of her substitute, for the payment of her travelling expenses and for the payment of a reasonable subsistence allowance during her absence. The question of the duration of the course is one that will be determined by the Central Midwives Board but I think, it would be safe to say not less than a week. At any rate, it is a matter to be determined by the Central Midwives Board.

So long as she is paid her salary, the duration of the course does not matter.

As I just explained to the House before the Senator came in, no financial obligation will be imposed on a nurse by way of fee for any course she may be called upon to attend.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Agreed to take remaining Stages to-day.
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