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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 8 May 1946

Vol. 31 No. 18

Forestry Bill, 1945—Committee Stage.

Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

I wonder if the Minister would consider limiting the class of trees which he calls timber for the purpose of this Bill. Alder trees, elder trees and thorn trees would all be included within the description of the Bill, that is to say, they do not come within the exclusions in the section. Therefore, a person would be liable to penalties for cutting alder, elder or thorn trees. There may be certain different views on the subject of alders, but I rather think the definition could be examined more carefully and the exclusion made. There are also to be considered the spindle tree and other hedgerow trees, which come within the definition, in so far as they are not excluded, and people would be liable to pains and penalties for cutting them.

I am perfectly certain the Minister does not intend that and I am also reasonably certain that it is most unlikely that penalties would be exacted, but it is not a sound principle to draft a Bill in a way which makes a person technically liable to penalties, even though in the particular circumstances it is most unlikely that there would be any prosecution.

I doubt if we call thorn trees trees at all, but if there are any trees that the Senator thinks should not come within the Bill, if we get a note of them we can include them in the section.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

I would like to draw attention to sub-section (1), paragraphs (ii) and (iii) of paragraph (a), where reference is made to the sending of certain documents by registered post. I think it is usual in Bills of this type, where provision is made for the serving of notices, to include the word "prepaid" before "registered post." I do not know if it is essential to have that word, but it has appeared in most other Acts.

I think the Senator is a bit confused. Where it is provided in Acts that notice shall be given by post, that is to say by ordinary post, it is usual to insert the word "prepaid" but when notice is given by registered post, it must necessarily be prepaid so that it is unnecessary to insert the word "prepaid" before the words "registered post."

I agree that is my own understanding of the matter but I have drawn attention to the fact that the words "prepaid registered post" are inserted in other Acts.

Would the Senator tell us whether these words appear in any Act under which notice is served by the Minister or merely in Acts under which notice is to be served by any other person? The Minister's letters go for nothing.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.

I move amendment No. 1:—

In page 4 to delete sub-section (3) and substitute therefor the following sub-section:—

(3) Notwithstanding anything contained in Section 10 of the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act, 1851, a prosecution for an offence under any section or sub-section of this Act may be brought at any time within whichever of the following periods later expires, that is to say—

(a) three months from the date on which evidence sufficient in the opinion of the Minister to justify a prosecution for the offence comes to his knowledge; or

(b) 12 months after the commission of the offence, and a certificate under the official Seal of the Minister as to the date on which such evidence comes to his knowledge shall be conclusive evidence thereof.

Sub-section (3) of Section 4 is intended to extend the period under which a prosecution may be taken for an offence under this Act. The Petty Sessions Act limits the period for taking prosecutions to six months, that is to say, six months from the date on which the offence was committed. The Minister proposes to extend that period by stating that notwithstanding anything contained in the Petty Sessions Act, proceedings under any section of this Act may be instituted at any time within one year after the time at which the cause of the complaints has arisen. It is only reasonable to say that in cases of this kind it may not be possible to bring a prosecution successfully within six months of the time at which the offence was committed but I think it is unreasonable to propose that there should be an extension of that period to 12 months from the time that information on which he bases a prosecution reaches the Minister. I think that is the purpose of the section as it stands—that the prosecution may be instituted at any time within one year after the time at which the cause of the complaint has arisen.

In previous discussions in reference to this subject, an effort was made to secure uniformity in relation to prosecutions and quite recently here on the Children's Allowances Bill, the matter was discussed at some length with the Minister for Industry and Commerce who agreed that there should be a reasonable limit to the time within which a prosecution should be brought. He pointed out, however, that there was one difficulty and that was under-staffing in the State Solicitor's office.

He said that if that could be overcome, he was prepared to amend the Children's Allowances Bill in the way we suggested so as to fix a narrower limit to the time within which a prosecution might be brought and subsequently that was done so that we have now secured uniformity in relation to the fixing of the time limit. The amendment which I have on the Order Paper is lifted line for line from the amendment which was moved to the Children's Allowances Bill, which is now inserted in this Act. It also appears in a number of other Acts, such as the Widows and Orphans Act under which proceedings might be brought under much the same circumstances as would arise under this Bill. The proposal in the amendment is that the prosecution must be brought within 12 months. There are two alternatives, that the prosecution shall be taken within three months from the date on which evidence sufficient, in the opinion of the Minister, to justify a prosecution comes to his knowledge. The intention is that there should be a reasonable restriction on the Minister in fixing the time for a prosecution, in other words that the prosecution will be brought as soon as possible. It is only reasonable I think to the person proceeded against that the proceedings should commence as soon as possible so that the incidents which gave rise to the prosecution will be fresh in everybody's mind. I am sure the Minister must realise the importance of that.

I would urge on the Minister, having regard to what was done in the case of other Bills where the same point arose, that he should accept the principle of uniformity so that everyone, everywhere, will know what the practice is in relation to prosecutions of this kind: so that solicitors and the general public will become familiar with the practice which has come to be adopted when proceedings are instituted under measures of this kind. If you have a different practice under different Acts it will cause confusion to the public and confusion as well among legal practitioners.

I cannot understand why Senator Duffy should have moved this amendment because, under it, he is seeking to confer on the Minister powers which the Minister has never asked for. In this House we have been endeavouring to restrain Government Departments from taking what one may call extraordinary powers. Under the ordinary law, under Section 10 of the Petty Sessions Act of 1851, an offence must be prosecuted within six months arising out of the cause of complaint. In this section, the Minister is simply asking that this period of six months should be extended to 12 months. That is, perhaps, in the circumstances quite reasonable. Now, Senator Duffy comes along with an amendment in which he propose to give the Minister power to bring a prosecution perhaps within three years after the commission of an offence, because portion of his amendment provides that a prosecution may be brought.

within three months from the date on which evidence sufficient in the opinion of the Minister to justify a prosecution for the offence comes to his knowledge,

or "12 months after the commission of the offence", whichever of the periods later expires. Therefore, the position would be that if the Minister had no information about an offence for two years and nine months he could bring one within three years after the commission of the offence. That, I think, would be quite undesirable.

I do not think that Senator Duffy was quite accurate in what he said as regards the intention of the section in previous Bills which he now seeks to insert in this Bill. In the case of the Children's Allowances Act, when that measure came before this House the Minister himself had in it a provision enabling a prosecution to be brought within six months from the date on which evidence, sufficient in the opinion of the Minister to justify a prosecution for the offence, came to his knowledge. In this House an amendment was introduced and accepted by the Minister that he should bring the prosecution within three months on which evidence, sufficient in his opinion to justify a prosecution, came to his knowledge. It will be remembered that on that occasion the Minister for Industry and Commerce stated that he would consider the matter because of this: that owing to the heavy work in the Chief State Solicitor's Office it might be possible that six months would elapse from the time that the file would be sent from the office of the Minister to the Chief State Solicitor's Office before a prosecution could be brought. In my opinion this amendment of Senator Duffy's is absolutely unnecessary and uncalled for. It is something which the Minister himself has not asked for, and, accordingly, I think that this House should not accept it.

May I point out that, whether it is good or bad, the phraseology in the amendment is that which is used in the last amendment dealing with this subject which was passed in this House. This amendment is exactly the same as the amendment which was inserted in the Children's Allowances Bill when it was before this House.

Two wrongs will not make a right.

The last argument put forward by Senator Duffy puzzles me more than his previous arguments did. Why there should be uniformity as regards offences committed under a Forestry Act, and why these are to be regarded in exactly the same category as offences committed under a Children's Allowances Act, the Senator has not told us. I personally cannot see why there should be the uniformity that he speaks of. It seems to me that a case could be made for a much later date in the case of offences of a certain type which might be committed under a Children's Allowances Act. I suggest that, in the vast majority of offences likely to be committed under a Forestry Act, it would be extraordinarily difficult, from the point of view of doing justice, to deal with them if they were brought after a period of 12 months. I think that the provision in the Bill is much more satisfactory and more suitable to this type of legislation than the amendment moved by the Senator to which I am very strongly opposed.

The great distinction, I suppose, which Senator Douglas sees between the type of offenders under this Bill and under a Children's Allowances Act is that, in the one case the offender would be a rich person and in the other a poor person, and that there should be unlimited scope for prosecuting the poor offender and a very limited scope for prosecuting the very rich person. I think that is altogether wrong. I think that my argument for uniformity is very much strengthened by the opinion expressed by Senator Douglas. It is in the interests of the citizens and of those concerned with the administration of justice, as well as with the practice followed in the courts, that there should be uniformity in relation to prosecutions by the State.

It is easy to see how an error could arise and mistakes be made in founding a prosecution where you have different Acts laying down a different and contradictory procedure. I think that is not in the public interest. I cannot see any reason why the practice accepted by this House, and asked for by this House two months ago in relation to another Bill, is necessarily wrong in this case. That is what Senator Ryan has been saying: that because a certain thing was done in another Bill we ought not to do it in this Bill. He thinks that it would be wrong to do it. That is the impression which his argument made on my mind. The amendment which I am submitting to the House was, as I have said, word for word proposed in this House and inserted by this House in the Children's Allowances Bill, based, I take it, on sections of a similar kind in other Acts.

I find some difficulty in trying to understand what Senator Duffy is after in this amendment. My view with regard to the amendment and indeed to the whole Bill is this, that it would be undesirable, if there is a breach, that the offender should not be brought to justice at the earliest possible date. The main breaches committed under a measure of this kind would be, I take it, in regard to the cutting of timber for which permits had not been obtained, for the uprooting of trees or for some other breach which could easily be seen by an official of the Department or members of the Gárda Síochána. If, however, too long a period is allowed to elapse, it will not be so easy to see what has happened, and from that point of view it is not only essential to go early and see if there has been a breach but it is also important to bring the offender to justice as quickly as you can. I think that Senator Duffy will agree that there is quite a different problem to be considered where you are dealing with an offender under this Bill and an individual who, say, commits an offence under the Children's Allowances Act.

In the latter case you may have to search all sorts of records and that may take a considerable time. It is very undesirable that any considerable time should elapse between the commission of the offence and the bringing of the offender to justice. To make the offender sensible of his offence, he should be brought to court quickly and penalised. Twelve months is a long time to elapse before a person is called upon to pay the penalty for his offence under this Bill. I should like to see the period shorter. At first I thought that that was what Senator Duffy was aiming at. His contention, that one must have uniformity, is hardly sustainable in these circumstances. The nature of the offence and the particular type of law which has been broken must be taken into account. The inquiries which may have to be made in the case of an offence under one Act may be very different from those which have to be made in respect of an offence under another Act. If an offence is punishable quickly after its commission, there is a greater likelihood that the law will be obeyed. I should be more in sympathy with Senator Duffy if he were moving in that direction rather than in the direction he has indicated.

I can understand Senator Duffy's desire for uniformity, but I should like to point out that, under the Petty Sessions Act, 1851, a prosecution must be brought within six months. Senator Baxter has dealt with the difference between the Children's Allowances Act and the present Bill. I am sure that that was the reason which was in Senator Douglas's mind and that Senator Duffy was not just in suggesting that he had a different reason. Senator Duffy thinks that lawyers will have difficulty because of the different periods in which prosecutions must be brought. They will have difficulty in any event. There are now so many differences in the law that lawyers must look up every Act to see what the time limit is before bringing any prosecution. I suggest that the Bill be left as it is and that Senator Duffy withdraw his amendment.

One aspect of the matter has been overlooked by Senator Baxter. The question is not solely one of the time in which a prosecution must be brought. There is also the question of ensuring that there will be an opportunity of bringing a prosecution. It is desirable, and I am endeavouring to secure, that there will be a time limit within which a prosecution must be brought, but that time limit should not be so restricted as to prevent a prosecution from being brought at all. That could happen. Some people may have considerable tracts of land planted and these tracts may not be in one locality. A licence may be issued authorising the owner to cut a certain number of trees. He may exceed the permitted number or he may cut trees which are not within the terms of the authority. A considerable time may elapse before information on which to base a prosecution reaches the Minister. The Gárdaí, who may be relied upon to make a report, will not be experts in this matter. They may not be aware for a considerable time after the event that immature trees have been cut. They will be aware that trees are being cut but they may not be aware that trees which are not within the terms of the authority are being cut. It might take a considerable time to obtain that information. I do not want restrictions to be placed on the Minister which would prevent a prosecution being brought at all.

Senator Duffy has not convinced me that the Minister is not being given sufficient powers in the Bill. Uniformity is, no doubt, a desirable thing but it can be carried too far. It is quite obvious that there is no comparison between the conditions attaching to the Children's Allowances Act and those attaching to a Bill of this kind. Those measures deal with completely different situations. If Senator Duffy desires to be logical, I suggest that he should go back and have a similar provision inserted by way of amendment in the Intoxicating Liquor Act. If such a clause were inserted in that Act, I am afraid that we should be all in trouble, because the authorities could go back and prosecute anybody after a year or two for having been in a public-house during prohibited hours.

These restrictions are in the Petty Sessions Act.

Senator Duffy revealed what was in his mind in his last few comments. As regards the landowners to whom he referred, I think that great credit is due to those people for what they have done for afforestation. The Minister is, probably, aware that these people are more careful about obedience to the law and have greater respect for it than any other section of the community. When they get permits to cut timber, they are meticulous in replanting according to the terms of the Order. If you were to wait for 12 months before you went to a plantation of matured timber which had been cut, you would have great difficulty in proving that there had been any offence, because of the moss-grown roots and the growth of grass around them. If the Minister is not able to bring a prosecution before that period has elapsed, he will never be able to prove the offence.

I do not understand Senator Duffy's preoccupation with a dull level of uniformity. Variety is the spice of life. It is an important axiom of the law that breaches of it should be dealt with by the courts as quickly as possible. That principle is embodied in the Petty Sessions Act, 1851. It is only because of the exigencies of the situation as regards forestry that we have to ask for further powers. Because the offence against the law may not be brought to the notice of the Forestry Department in time and because it is important that afforestation should be protected, we have asked for an added six months. It is reasonable, in the circumstances, to ask for a period of 12 months.

But again, the principle should be observed of bringing before the courts any offender against the law as quickly as possible. Senator Duffy asks us to take action three months from the date on which evidence sufficient in the opinion of the Minister to justify a prosecution for the offence comes to his knowledge. That might mean any time. It might be a couple of years. I think it would be grossly unfair to the offender, who might be unable to secure evidence in rebuttal of the charge at that period, that we should have such powers. I think it would be asking too much power for the Minister that he should get what is practically an opportunity of pursuing into several public houses in the country every offender against any particular law. I could not accept the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 4 agreed to.
SECTION 5.

I move amendment No. 2:—

In page 5, after sub-section (3) to insert the following new sub-section:—

(4) Every regulation made by the Minister under this Act shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent 21 days on which that House has sat after the regulation is laid before it, the regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.

This amendment asks that the regulations which are made under the Act shall be laid upon the Table of both Houses. It has been the practice of this House, I think, to insist that the regulations which are made under an Act should be tabled and that both Houses should have power to annul. I do not think there is anything unreasonable in that proposal and I submit it to the Minister.

Senator Sweetman is worried, rightly, about legislation by reference. I think what is in Senator Duffy's mind is legislation by Order. If it was contemplated that any Orders which needed to be made in regard to forestry did infringe on legislation it would be right that they should be placed before the Houses of the Oireachtas but the Orders that have to be made in this case are merely relating to procedure and are very minor matters of administration and will not in any way infringe on the Act if it is passed or in any way affect any general legislation. They are merely minor matters dealing with procedure.

I may point out that the amendment has got nothing to do with Orders. It relates only to regulations. Sub-section (1) of Section 5 says:—

"The Minister may make regulations prescribing any matter or thing referred to in this Act as prescribed."

The amendment is proposing that the regulations made under sub-section (1) of Section 5 shall be tabled. I made no reference to Orders which the Minister may make from time to time. I confined myself entirely to regulations.

The proposed regulations, if they have to be made at any time, follow on precedent which is followed in regard to the Commissioners of the Land Commission. They make similar rules dealing with procedure, which have not to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas and it has not been found necessary by any Deputy or Senator to argue that they should be laid before the Oireachtas. These really are minor matters. They are not legislative. They do not affect legislation.

May I draw attention to sub-section (1) of Section 20 which deals with temporary right-of-way for the transport of timber? The Minister will make regulations in relation to that matter, in regard to the serving of notice, for instance. I do not know whether it is the view of the House or not that we have any interest in the manner in which these regulations are made. The matter prescribed by these regulations may have very serious reaction on the persons to whom they relate but, of course, if the House considers that there is no obligation to watch these interests and take power to annul regulations, I do not want to press the House to do it.

Would the regulation under Section 13 be one of the regulations which the Minister may make?

It appears to me that the manner in which the applications and appeals from the applications are to be dealt with is a fundamental matter on which the House should be informed, not a detail.

We have not had the pleasure of having the Minister before us very much in the last year and the Minister may not be aware that this point has been raised a considerable number of times in this House. I think every Minister has admitted the principle that where a regulation or an Order is made it should be tabled unless it is a purely directory matter, such as deciding on what date the Act is to come into force. I think all Minister have accepted that, on the principle that the Oireachtas should be able to find out and, if necessary, to question anything that is done under the authority of an Act. What harm would there be in a provision that these should be tabled? It merely means that they are put in the Library and that a list is printed in the Order Paper for the day. It involves no money. It involves no trouble and no furrowing of official brains or racking of official consciences, and, if it is so easily done, why should it not be done? It is apparently in line with Constitutional precedent and, in the very rare case where a regulation or an Order might be questioned or objected to, would allow members of the House to raise the question.

I think it would be desirable that where Orders made by a Minister might affect the rights of individuals the Orders should be laid before the House but, in this Bill, I fail to see that these regulations will affect the rights of parties. Under Section 13 of the Bill, it is provided that every application and every appeal under any section contained in this Part shall be made and conducted in the prescribed manner. In my opinion, regulations made for the purpose of implementing Section 13 do not affect the rights of parties. They merely deal with procedure.

I have not yet heard either from Senator Duffy or any other Senator any reason why these regulations should be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas on the ground that such regulations may adversely affect the rights of individuals without these parties having some opportunity of protecting such rights. Therefore, unless Senator Duffy can satisfy me that the non-laying of these regulations before the Houses of the Oireachtas will have some adverse effect upon persons or affect their rights, I would be prepared to vote against his amendment. I think the intention is that these regulations should deal with precedure and, of course, the Minister in making such regulations must make them by Order.

You could make a list of everything prescribed in the Act. The word "prescribed" occurs in a number of sections.

If any of these matters modified or extended the powers asked for under the Bill I think it would not only be reasonable to ask that all such powers should be published, but I think that they should be included as part of the Bill. If these proposals were to modify or extend the power looked for it would be almost better than publishing Orders to include them as part of the Bill. That is my own view. These matters deal merely with procedure, with the regulation of forms to be issued and are really routine Departmental matters and are not matters affecting the citizen in any way.

As a matter of interest, I see in the Order Paper to-day that the forms under the Rent Restrictions Act are being tabled. Are not those exactly analogous to the regulations which the Minister is going to make, under Section 13, for example? I accept the Minister's view that if a regulation were to alter a statute it should be incorporated in the statute, but I do not accept his view that it is only regulations which alter a statute which should be laid on the Table of the House, as, with all due respect to Senator O'Dea's remarks on the last day, there are some people who read them.

I would like to call attention to the fact that Section 5 (1) provides that the Minister may make regulations prescribing any matter or thing referred to in this Bill as prescribing. These regulations are for the purpose of prescribing something and I suggest they deal with prescribing of procedure and do not affect the rights of particular parties.

Surely, that has not been our experience? It is the most fantastic argument we have heard yet, that the word "prescribing" can only mean prescribing regulations. In every Bill brought into this House, there has been an identical section with those words, if there is power to make regulations. Under some of these Bills, regulations of the most far-reaching character are made. I am not suggesting that regulations will be made under this Bill which will be of a far-reaching character, but I say that the word "prescribing" does not limit the character of the regulations which can be made. In certain cases, the regulations are very much more voluminous than the Act itself. That will be true, I think, in the case of the Land Acts. In the case of some other Acts, such as the Harbours Act, I imagine the regulations would be more voluminous than the Act itself. I mention that in order to dispose of the suggestion that when you see the word "prescribed" you need not look any further. I am not quite certain as to the kind of regulations which can be made under this Bill, beyond looking at Section 13 which says:—

Every application and every appeal under any section contained in this Part shall be made and conducted in the prescribed manner."

That only relates to one subject, to the making of applications and the lodging of appeals. There may be others. A regulation may be made which would have the effect of nullifying the intentions of this Bill, in regard to appeals, for instance. Forms of application could be made so difficult that they might easily impose hardship on the individuals concerned. I am not suggesting that that will be done—nothing is further from my mind at the moment—but I merely draw attention to the fact that these regulations may have very far-reaching consequences.

I looked also at Section 20 and found there that certain things may be prescribed. In sub-section (1) (a) of Section 20, it is provided that the applicant shall serve the prescribed notice on the occupier. That only prescribes a form of notice and I do not suggest that it is of great importance. However, I have not examined the Bill thoroughly to find exactly how far the Minister may go in making regulations. I think it is not unreasonable that where regulations are made they should be tabled.

On the point raised by Senator Sweetman, Senator Sweetman stated that the regulations made under the Rent Restrictions Act, 1946, have been laid on the Table of the House. There is good reason for that, apart from the fact that it is prescribed that a breach of its regulations involves penalties. Sub-section (1) of Section 53 provides that the Minister may make regulations providing for the supply of rent books in a prescribed form, the custody of such books, the entry of specified particulars, and so on. Then sub-section (2) provides that every person who fails to comply with any such regulation made under sub-section (1) shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding £10. Therefore, there is good reason for providing that such regulations shall be laid on the Table of the House, since a breach of them may result in a prosecution and conviction. In this case, as far as I can find, there is no provision in the Bill that a breach of these regulations is punishable. The regulations under this Bill seem to deal merely with procedure and are not penal or punitive.

I do not know if Senator Duffy has seen the definition of the word "prescribed." It means "prescribed by regulation under this Act." He stated that the Minister may make regulations that would annul some of the provisions of the Bill. If he made any such regulations, I submit they would be null and void, they would be ultra vires. There is no fear that anything like that would happen, as such regulations would be useless. I do not intend to oppose the amendment, as I think the laying of them on the Table of the House will do no harm, since no Senator will read them.

I have no added light to give the Seanad. I say these regulations merely deal with the issuing of forms and with the procedure. If this Bill passes into law, it may be unpleasant for some people and may even do them what they consider to be an injury, but it can do them no legal wrong. It has been suggested that under the regulations a citizen may be penalised and to my mind that would be a breach of the law. Surely the sections are sufficiently clear as drafted and debated. If there was any one action which may be taken by a Department which in the view of the Oireachtas is inequitable surely if there is any pressure brought on the Minister he can rectify it. Any irregularity in the section is sufficiently clear to inform the Seanad what the terms are. If they are inequitable in any way then the Seanad will deal with them as they do in cases of a regulation made which interferes with the citizen which seems to be a breach of the law. These regulations are the normal regulations made in every Department in regard to procedure under the Act.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 5, 6, 7 and 8 agreed to.
SECTION 9.

I move amendment No. 3:—

In sub-section (1), page 6, before paragraph (k) to insert the following new paragraph :—

(k) undertake the preparation and publication of propaganda in relation to afforestation and the industries ancillary to forestry.

It will be observed that in sub-section (1) there is a detailed list of the things which the Minister is authorised to do. These powers are similar to the powers already enjoyed by the Minister under existing legislation, but one of the things that would be noticed is that the use of existing powers has not contributed very much towards afforestation. I am anxious to get inserted in the Bill a directive that will ensure that the Minister will have it constantly before his mind that he has to use the machinery provided in the Bill for the purpose of getting land afforested. Many of us noticed yesterday in the neighbourhood of Clonsast bog and other parts of the country wide areas of land that are capable of being afforested and of producing little else. There must be thousands of acres that are being developed which are not capable of economic use except for the purpose of afforestation. The Government have found no difficulty in certain cases of obtaining thousands of acres of bog for the purpose of cutting turf and they would find no difficulty in acquiring thousands of acres of land for afforestation, if they desired that that land be so acquired. I do not want to cover ground that was covered on the Second Reading. I take this opportunity of drawing the Minister's attention to the fact that there is nothing in Section 9 of this Bill which will give any assurance whatever that the enactment of this legislation will see one acre of timber planted in this country.

I am anxious that we should engage in propaganda in the interests of such afforestation. We are doing propaganda in rural electrification and we are doing propaganda to encourage the use of turf by people in districts that habitually use coal only. All this propaganda has been successful. Propaganda has been used in this country and in other countries to induce people to take holidays at particular times and to go to particular holiday resorts. If in all these other directions propaganda has been successful, why cannot the Department of Lands resort to propaganda in order to give afforestation a popular appeal in this country?

One of the arguments used against afforestation seems to me to demand that we should indulge in extensive educational and propaganda work. Another argument is that young forests are destroyed by certain kinds of people who do not hesitate in destroying plantations and growing trees. There is another argument that people do not want forests and would not give up a bit of mountain land now used as rough grazing for afforestation purposes. Surely if that is the mentality the Minister should be doing something to encourage people to think of its economic uses and to think of the manner in which afforestation could serve their national and economic needs. As far as I can see all the propaganda of the Department is against afforestation and not in favour of it. I do not know if the insertion of paragraph (k) would make a tremendous difference, but those responsible for afforestation might regard it as necessary. With that paragraph the Minister would have wide powers and great opportunities to make the people of this country forest-minded. It would not do to be asking for an acre of timber here and another there.

I was hoping that the Minister, who himself has knowledge of large tracts of country which should be afforested and which are now practically no use to the country, would perhaps set a new headline in the Forestry Division of the Land Commission. So far he has not done so. Perhaps we shall discover by his attitude to this amendment whether or not he intends to do it in the future.

I am sympathetic to Senator Duffy's amendment and I have been trying to work out exactly how it might help the Minister's plan for afforestation. I agree that there is a necessity for propaganda. I do not know what the Minister's view about this may be but the Minister indicates that there are certain limitations which his Department find it difficult to overcome. One of the greatest is the difficulty of finding land. I feel that nothing except very forceful propaganda will convince people that forests on a great deal of our poorer land can economically be much more advantageous to the individuals who live close to that land and to the nation as a whole, than the present use that is being made of the land or any possible use that could ever be made of it. I agree that it is very difficult to get people into the frame of mind in which they will be prepared to offer this land at such a figure as will attract the Minister.

He is not very flaitheamhl in the amount of money he is prepared to spend. There again I am at variance with the Minister in his policy in that regard. I do not know whether it is due to the Ministerial view or the Government view of the value of forests to the people of the nation, but whatever may be the origin of the value which they put on land for afforestation purposes, I do not accept that it is wise nationally, taking the long view. If your main problem is to get any very considerable amount of additional land for forestry you can only get that by offering people who are in possession or partial possession of it actually more than its real value at the moment and by trying to influence people in the neighbourhood that while that land is at a very low value to-day, it is going to decrease in value as years pass, whereas if it were turned over for purposes of afforestation, it would have an increase in value with the passing years and they would have a completion to their economy that does not exist at the moment. There would be possibilities of employment in the immediate future and in the remote future for families living in the neighbourhood. With propaganda like that, it is conceivable that many of our people would have an entirely different approach to this whole matter, of giving over land which to-day is not very productive. Some more active steps must be taken in this regard than have been taken up to the present. If you are going to be satisfied merely to go into a district and merely test farmers as to the price they are prepared to accept for land and abandon your purpose if they are not prepared to give you that land at your price or, alternatively, if you are going to make an order to acquire the land compulsorily in an atmosphere that is not very favourable, you will damnify your whole scheme. The Minister has been very good at propaganda in the past sometimes on occasions when he had not as sound a foundation as is available to him in this instance but he succeeded in getting it across. I do not think the Minister could have anything better to sell to the nation than he has in this case. I agree with Senator Duffy that the expenditure of money in this way is worthy of consideration, to see if we can make people more forest-minded, not in a narrow selfish way but in a national way and also to make them appreciate that it offers a way of life that is better for every one of us than other possibilities offer at the moment.

I do not know whether Senator Duffy or Senator Baxter have considered paragraphs (i) and (j) of sub-section (1) of this section which provides that the Minister may:—

"(i) undertake the collection, preparation, publication and distribution of statistics relating to forestry and promote and develop instruction and training in forestry by establishing or aiding schools or other educational establishments or in such other manner as he thinks fit;

(j) make or aid in making such inquiries, experiments and research, and collect or aid in collecting such information, as he thinks important for the purpose of promoting forestry and the teaching of forestry, and publish or otherwise take steps to make known the results of such inquiries, experiments or research and to disseminate such information;"

Now what more is necessary than that? What propaganda is as good as teaching forestry? I think the amendment is entirely unnecessary.

Senator Duffy is seeking to confer on the Minister a power which the Minister has not asked for in the Bill. Its acceptance by the Minister might not, perhaps, do any harm to anybody. In Section 9 of the Bill there are set out a large number of general powers which the Minister may exercise. These powers seem to be like the objects clause in the memorandum of association of a company in which wide powers are given to the company, many of which they may never use or may never require to use. I think myself there would be no objection to the acceptance of the amendment if the courts, or the Minister perhaps, could construe or interpret the meaning of the word "propaganda". The word propaganda to my mind has a very indefinite meaning. People engage in propaganda to advance their own interests and they talk about their own particular subject with some ulterior object in view. In this case the question the Minister will have to ask himself is: "What propaganda am I to prepare and publish in relation to afforestation?" He might issue the advertisement: "Grow more trees" like the propaganda which we see on our letters: "Grow more wheat".

Or he might make a film.

At all events, I do not think there would be very much harm in the Minister's accepting this amendment. It may do some good; it cannot do any harm. The difficulty would be perhaps that the Minister at a later stage, after expending money voted for the purposes of forestry, would be saddled by the Comptroller and Auditor General with the charge that this money was spent on propaganda. I think the Minister might consider the acceptance of the amendment or, if Senator Duffy would withdraw it, the Minister might consider bringing forward a similar amendment on the Report Stage.

Unlike Senator Ryan I see an objection to the acceptance of the amendment and it is that Senator Duffy is such a stickler for uniformity in everything, that to be logical he would probably seek to have the same powers given to other Ministers. Just imagine what would happen if you were going to give every other Minister powers of propaganda. I think the Minister has powers enough in the Bill to do what the Bill sets out to achieve. This is a Bill to make better provision in relation to forestry. At least, we hope that it will have done that when it leaves this House, with the help the Senators have given to amend it. I think there is already power to use propaganda—that is interesting teaching—for forestry. I think it is sufficiently covered by the Minister's powers under paragraphs (i) and (j) of the section we are considering. Therefore, I consider there is no necessity for this proposal about propaganda, and I think it would not be desirable to bring anything about propaganda into any Bill.

I think that the powers sought are already inherent in this Bill. It enables the Minister to do what Senator Duffy suggests, and I think that Senator Duffy is, so to speak, pushing an open door where the Minister is concerned. Senator Duffy uses the phrase "forcible propaganda". I do not see how any propaganda can be really forcible without arousing certain antagonisms. Another thing to which I wish to call the attention of the Seanad is this constant insistence that the Government—let it be the Government of the day or any other Government—should do something. Why should not Senators and Deputies, if they are enthusiastic in this matter, do some work in their own respective areas, with their own constituents? It is, undoubtedly, true that we are not forestry-minded. I harped on that subject at length three weeks ago, and I do not want to repeat myself. If I may coin a word, this question of propagandising is a difficult one. We have had no tangible suggestion either from Senator Duffy or Senator Baxter on which the Minister could seize, merely a vague suggestion, that certain things should be done. We all agree with the spirit of Senator Duffy's motion, but it is another thing to implement it. I would like to avail myself of this opportunity to voice my opinion about a certain practice of the Forestry Department which, I think, is rather reprehensible. I would like the Minister to take note of it. When I was speaking on this matter three weeks ago I forgot to ask the Minister about it. It appears, I am told by those who know it, that the Forestry Department, certainly in the past, perhaps in the present, and I trust not in the future, have adopted a practice of destroying or burning surplus seedlings. I do not know why. They do not wish, perhaps, to compete with the ordinary nurseries. I think that is one reason, but it is true that seedlings have been destroyed by burning. The Forestry Department cannot sell them to locals, or to their own working men in bundles, and they cannot sell them, according to the practice of the Department, to anyone who likes to buy them.

In the Department of Agriculture, I believe, there is a cognate practice with regard to their seedlings and cuttings. They are not distributed to any set of men. If the Department's seedlings are surplus and they do not wish to compete with the nurseries—I agree with that—why not give them to the nurseries or the trade? If these seedlings were available in that way, it would not be the makings of the nation from a forestry point of view, but it might induce tenant farmers to plant them. I want to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that such destruction is wanton waste and should be checked so that the surplus can be turned into beneficial channels. As regards a particular proposal made by Senator Duffy, I do not think that, like the Jackdaw of Rheims, anyone would be any the worse. The powers are already inherent in the Bill and drawing attention to the necessity for propaganda may have a good effect. In the meantime, if we who sit here and the people who sit in another place were to do a little bit on our own to try to make our constituents forestry-minded, perhaps we would be doing good work. I do not think that Government, qua Government, could do very much more by way of propaganda. As I said at the outset, people are not forestry-minded and will have to be educated. I think we are less forestry-minded than we were 20 years ago.

Senator Kehoe's remarks that bundles of seedlings from State forests have been burned comes as a shock to me, and I feel there is a use to which they can be put, a use which cannot but fail to have a very beneficial effect on civics. We hear all sorts of suggestion for the improvement of the school curriculum. Why not have a section of every school playground where the kiddies themselves would be given these seedlings and encouraged to grow them? It is not an idle suggestion—I think it is a practical one. If we could envisage a situation where every school in the country would have a patch of ground no matter how small, for the growing of these seedlings, there would be a cessation or, at least, a lessening of that vandalism which is a disgrace to our community life at present, and I feel, would have a beneficial effect on civics generally. I agree with Senator Duffy's suggestion that anything that would make the community forestry-minded would be good.

There is not much use in preaching it from the top when the young people of the country place no value on the trees —we will still continue to have things that will cause us to blush. I feel that we might have the co-operation of the Minister in stopping the burning of these seedlings and the idea I have suggested might be put before the Minister for Education, so that these seedlings could be used to embellish the playgrounds, and the minds of the children who embellish the schools.

I think that Senator Duffy is rather concerned in pointing out to the Seanad a certain lack in my character rather than dealing with the point at issue, and I really do admit that I have that lack. So has Senator Duffy. Neither of us can undertake specifically to change human nature, and in dealing with the acquisition of land for forestry purposes I have to deal with human nature at times. What Senator Duffy has said about the acquisition of land and the amount of land available for acquisition is, in a certain sense, propaganda. Propaganda has a very clear religious significance; it has also a certain political significance which is less savoury. I entirely object to the use of the word propaganda. We all know what the word means to the general public. If you tell any unusual story in company you are generally greeted with the remark "that is mere propaganda". Propaganda is not a word we should use at all. I think there is quite sufficient power in the section to enable the Minister to meet the points, in regard to publicity, that the Senator desires. I think we should undertake publicity to a greater extent than we have done in the past and try to disseminate a knowledge of forestry among the public: to try to induce the general public to have a more appreciative view of forestry and of its usefulness in the country than they already have. I believe we can do that within the limits of the Bill as it stands, and I think that we should do it. On the next stage, possibly, I may be able to find some method of meeting what I believe to be Senator Duffy's views which he did not exactly express.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."

This is a section which gives very wide powers to the Minister, and I am sure it will not be the fault of the section if we do not see tens of thousands of acres of timber growing throughout the country in the very near future. Senators may see from the Order Paper that I have an amendment down which I propose to move later. That amendment proposes to add to the powers of the Minister. It is not my intention to discuss the amendment now. Under this section, and especially under paragraphs (f) and (g) of sub-section (1), the Minister can do substantially the kind of thing that I contemplate in my amendment No. 12. Under paragraph (g), the Minister is taking power to "undertake the planting, development, utilisation, management or supervision upon such terms and subject to such conditions as may be agreed upon" in regard to land owned by persons and so on. If the Minister undertakes, in operating the section, to advert to the suggestions which I am making in my amendment, it may well be that it may not be necessary for me to move the amendment at all.

There are two points that I want to make on the section. The first is in regard to what is set out in paragraph (f) of sub-section (1) where power is conferred on the Minister to make advances by way of a grant or a loan, or partly by one or the other, to encourage private planting. I have grave doubts as to the wisdom of spending money in this manner. I can see a case for the making of a grant or an advance to a small farmer to enable him to do useful planting within certain limits. If, however, the Minister were to respond to a proposal that was made in this House on the Second Reading of the Bill to the effect that he should advance money to every farmer in the country to plant an acre of land, then I think we are going to bury a very large sum of money in a worthless enterprise.

My second point deals with paragraph (h) of sub-section (1), under which the Minister is taking power to "establish and carry on or aid in the establishment and carrying on of woodland industries". I fail to grasp the meaning of the word "woodland" in a Forestry Bill. What is to prevent us writing in the word "forest"? Is it meant that the proposal here is to make advances to farmers to grow an acre of timber, and that that is to be related to the industries, or do we think at all of a forest? That is the aspect of afforestation with which I am concerned. If we want to make afforestation a useful economic activity in this country we must have the planting of large areas—500 acres, 1,000 acres or 10,000 acres, if we can in one lot, for the purpose of developing an industry, or a variety of industries, related to forests. That is what we must aim at if we are thinking at all of the profitable end of forestry. I do not think anyone is going to suggest to the Minister that he should spend money growing timber merely to provide fire logs or pit props. That sort of activity is going to be of no use to the country.

The real advantage of afforestation is the opportunity it provides for the building up of a variety of industries, such as wood pulp and various other kinds of industries, which have been developed on such a big scale in Switzerland, Canada and the Black Forest in Germany. I want, therefore, to urge on the Minister that the advances to be made under paragraph (f) of sub-section (1) to individuals for the purpose of planting timber will be kept at the lowest minimum, and that the money voted to the Forestry Department will be utilised to provide a forest and not a few scattered trees in the corner of somebody's holding. I would like the Minister to consider whether, as part of the propaganda that we have been discussing, he would not take out the word "woodland" in relation to industries under paragraph (h) and insert instead the word "forest".

I have been asked by Senator Ó Buachalla who, unfortunately, could not be here to-day to raise a question on paragraph (j) of sub-section (1) of this section, under which the Minister is taking power to carry out experiments or research. I want to ask the Minister if he intends to carry out research or experiments in Connemara which, as Senators know, is a very big area. There is plenty of land there which is of little value from the agricultural point of view, but which many people think would be very suitable for the growing of timber. There was an inquiry made some time ago at which two men gave evidence. One was Mr. Coyle, the manager of MacDonagh's, Galway, and the other Mr. McGuinness. They pointed out certain parts of Connemara in which they thought timber could be grown. I might say for the Minister's information that the areas they pointed out were near railway stations. That would seem to indicate that there are numerous places elsewhere in Connemara that would grow timber just as well as the areas they pointed out. We are anxious that an investigation would be made and that the people would be told whether Connemara will grow timber or not. If the investigation shows that it will not, then the people can be told that. If, on the other hand, it will grow timber, then a great part of the country could be planted. I am raising this question, as I have said, at the request of Senator Ó Buachalla. On the last occasion, I think that the Minister thought he was referring to a place called Knockboy, near Carn. He was not referring to that area at all but he did inform me that he understood that the plants put down in that area were not too suitable. They were kept too long before planting and were not really fit for planting at the time. A man engaged at the planting told him they were so dry it was impossible to distinguish the plant from the stem and that that was the cause of the timber not growing so well at Knockboy.

One gets the impression that there is a theory in the Department that there must be a certain area available for planting before planting is economic. How is the term "economic" defined? On what basis of income is it possible to decide that a certain area is not "economic", from the point of view of the Ministry sending its staff in there to prepare it for afforestation? Who knows what the value of timber on that area may be at the distant date when the trees will be ripe for cutting? I do not know whether Ministerial or Departmental policy is to be altered in that respect or not. Wherever the idea originated that an area had to be of a certain size to be economic for planting, that idea requires reorientation now. As a result of the acceptance of that view, areas are left unafforested which, if totted up, would make a considerable contribution to the afforestation of the country. I think that it is absolutely unsound to proceed on the basis that, if you have not 100 acres or 200 acres, or whatever the figure is, you cannot undertake the planting of an area.

That view has to be radically altered. I should like to hear the Minister on that question because, if you proceed in accordance with that policy, your scheme of afforestation will not be as profitable in the future as it should be.

I am somewhat muddled about this matter. Senator Duffy was, I think, referring to paragraph (f) of sub-section (1) of Section 9 which refers to

"advances by way of grant or by way of loan, or partly in one way and partly in the other, and upon such terms and subject to such conditions as he thinks fit, to persons (including local authorities) in respect of the afforestation (including the replanting) of land belonging to those persons."

I take it that Senator Duffy objects to our taking that action. He suggested that the less money spent in this fashion the better. My opinion is that we shall not be able to spend much money in this way. I think that it would be an admirable way of producing that propaganda so dear to the heart of Senator Duffy with a view to inducing people to take an interest in forestry and plant trees.

I do not expect this device to be very successful nor do I expect that we shall be able to spend much money on it, but we hope to combat the general attitude of distaste for forestry by reasonable methods of publicity. Successful publicity is not always secured by flamboyant speeches or by learned articles in the newspapers. Often-times, the getting of an area of woodland in a district and its successful operation by the Forestry Department is the best type of propaganda. I think I can relate Senator Baxter's views to that particular point. The greater unified area that can be planted with trees, the better the timber you have. The smaller the area is, the greater the percentage loss in regard to commercial plantings. The bigger the mass of forestry, the less waste and the more effective the planting for commercial purposes. Unless they can get a block of plantable land of not less than 300 acres, it has been found unwise by the Forestry Department to undertake a planting campaign in any district. There may, of course, be something, yet undiscovered by chemists, in timber, which will make any kind of planting now an economic proposition 50 years hence. But we are not prophets. We cannot peer past the veil of the future. It is, therefore, uneconomic to plant small areas where the percentage of waste timber to commercial timber will be too great. It is not possible to employ men in what we all regard as an economic fashion in an area of less than 300 acres. If we get 300 acres in one block in any area, it is possible to utilise for our purposes much smaller areas surrounding that, although that is not so economic as dealing with a unified large area. I do not visualise any great success from the making of loans or grants to private individuals or local authorities. I wish I could. But it is worth the experiment. Even from the publicity point of view, I think that the money would be well spent and that, even on the basis of trial and error, it would be justified.

As regards research, the Forestry Department is always concerned with keeping abreast with experiments and discoveries not only in this country but in every other country. I think that our Forestry people are up and doing in regard to experiments and research. I have no great faith in the production of successful forestry in Connemara.

Most of the soil in Connemara has a granite subsoil, if it has any topsoil. It is very much exposed to the ocean winds and you find very few places where you have a combination of shelter and suitable soil. It would be wise, of course, in the development of forestry and for the benefit of Connemara that we should make further researches and that we should, if possible, find land for plantations either near or far from railway stations, but, again, no matter how bad the land is in Connemara, it is very, very difficult to get the people to part with it, and compulsory acquisition is not a thing that can be very vehemently associated with the forestry development of the country. That old story of Knockboy has cropped up time and time again, that the British Government, of course, did not want to plant forestry in Connemara and, therefore, they left the saplings that were to be planted there to wither away into nothingness to ensure there could be no success. The British Government did many things, queer and indefensible, but I do not think that is one of the things they did. I do think that the climate and soil in Connemara are not at all or in any sense comparable with the soil and climate in County Wicklow, where the Forestry Department has had great success, and while I do promise that every effort will be made and every examination of the position in Connemara that needs to be made will be made, I would not be optimistic of success in Connemara.

The Minister, perhaps, did not answer my question. Would he say whether he can make any use of the suggestions contained in amendment No. 12 in operating sub-section (1) (g) of this section?

Are we on the section? I think Senator Duffy was dealing with another section. Can we come to that matter in due course?

I am leaving the House and I will not be able to move amendment No. 12.

Shall we deal with it now?

The Senator wants to know is it operative under this section? Can you do under this section what he wants to give power to do in amendment No. 12?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Amendment No. 12 is to insert a new section.

Amendment No. 12 reads:—

After Section 34, and in Part III, to insert a new section as follows:—

35.—(1) It shall be lawful for any farmer to give to the Minister at an agreed price an option to purchase such portion of his holding as is more suitable for forestry than for agriculture on the terms and conditions stated in the following sub-sections of this section.

(2) The Minister shall plant and fence the portion of land in question, employing as far as possible the labour of the farmer and his family or other local labour, and paying the standard wage for such labour.

(3) At any time within 30 years from the date of such planting the farmer or his successor in title shall have the right to redeem the option on payment of the costs of planting plus compound interest at an appropriate rate for the intervening period.

(4) At any time after 30 years from the date of such planting the Minister shall have the right (failing such redemption) to complete the purchase of the portion of land in question on payment of the agreed price plus compound interest at an appropriate rate for the intervening period. —(Senator Joseph Johnston).

I do not think well of it.

Would the Minister consider it in on Report? I am afraid he has not been able to think of it very closely.

I do not think well of it.

Would I be in order in making one or two remarks about the research aspect that has been referred to? I was at Oxford some years ago and visited the Princes Risborough Forestry Research Station. When research is spoken of, I wonder is the Minister thinking of a particular aspect of research, that is to say, the various properties of timber, the different diseases that attack timber, breaking stresses, and so on. In that station there is a place known as the "Graveyard". That has a very ominous sound but it really means that timber is inserted to a certain depth and after some time it is taken up and examined for results.

In that way the timber that is likely to stand up to certain uses is experimentally determined. One of the great troubles about the use of our native timber is that it is susceptible to attack by the dreadful disease, dry rot. If a good deal more information were disseminated about that disease, certain prejudices that exist about the use of native timber would disappear. It is a question of proper ventilation. That is the principal method of treating that disease. It may be of some interest to the House if I mention that at that research station I saw tests which revealed in the case of dry rot that the filaments of the fungus actually passed through portion of a brick wall and attacked timber on the other side. That would show that the timber used in this country, particularly native timber, is liable to attack by this disease and it results in very great annual loss. There may be attached to the Forestry Research Department here sections dealing with matters of that kind but I am not aware of them. If they are there, then, following the precedent established by the visit of Senators to the turf districts yesterday, it would not be a bad idea to ask Senators to visit them and see them at work. I noticed a number of firms in England sent in for test beams of wood, the breaking stress of which was ascertained. I saw cases where iron was driven into the beam and the pull necessary to withdraw that iron was ascertained. In that way a very instructive series of results was obtained. When he speaks of research, then, I hope the Minister is thinking of research of that particular type as well as the ordinary research in regard to the planting and the growth of forests, and so on.

I also noticed over there that the life history of the death watch beetle was examined. It is obvious that knowledge of that kind would be extremely useful if disseminated and could be perhaps one of the best forms of propaganda and would tend to remove certain prejudices in regard to the use of native timber. Native timber could be used more extensively for, perhaps, furniture making if the proper method of treating it was known. If the kiln-dried system could be extended it would be a very great help.

We are at present paying something like £3 10s. 0d. a square for flooring board. At one time flooring timber could be purchased at about 15/- to 19/- a square. I think it will be admitted that the present price is exorbitant and it is to be hoped that if the Minister can do anything to secure a substantial reduction, he will do so because, of course, that cost must necessarily add considerably to the cost of building. One of our main objects now will be to erect a number of houses but there is a general complaint among local authorities that the cost of the houses is a very serious matter. I would again direct the Minister's attention to the particular type of research that I have referred to. Perhaps he will say whether or not special consideration is being given to the matter of setting up a station similar to the Princes Risborough Forestry Station in the neighbourhood of Oxford?

The calculation of stresses and strains is a matter for a construction engineer and would be outside the ambit of the work of the Forestry Department. Dry rot is not a matter that affects growing timber. It is a disease which is very difficult to cure, but it would not be our concern in forestry, once the tree leaves the forest. It is not our business and I do not think it should be.

One reason for the dislike to native timber is that it is not properly kiln-dried. That is the reason there have been so many failures and the reason that tradesmen do not care to handle it. Such ideas of research as the Senator has would hardly be matters for the Forestry Department. I think they are altogether outside our purview.

Question—"That Section 9 stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
SECTION 10.

I move amendment No. 4:—

In sub-section (2), sub-paragraph (a) after the word "representative" in line 53, to insert the words "who shall be a practical farmer".

First of all, I would like to take the opportunity of apologising to Senator Baxter for misquoting him on the last occasion—unintentionally, I can assure you. My speech on that occasion did not please the Minister or any section in the House. My object was to help the Minister with the forestry plans and the wild men of the woods. With the same intention, I have put down these two amendments, but the Minister will look on it in a different light. Perhaps he might have common sense and accept them. By this amendment, I want to ensure that a practical common-sense farmer who understands something about mountain grazing would be one of the consultative committee.

For some reason, all Ministers have very little confidence in the possibility of a farmer having any common sense. There have been several consultative councils, advisory boards, and so on, set up from time to time under different Acts, but practically never was a farmer put on one of them. In the case of the board for the management of the Tully Stud, I pointed out that there was a very considerable amount of land there.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That has nothing to do with forestry.

I considered that a representative of the cattle trade would be very useful on that board, but my suggestion had no effect. All Ministers seem to ignore farmers and I take this opportunity to protest strongly against that attitude, on behalf of the farming community. I hope the Minister will change that procedure now and accept this amendment, so that we may have one practical farmer on this consultative committee.

I must confess I overlooked putting down an amendment to this section, but it is to some extent covered by Senator Counihan. The Minister provides for "a representative of the Minister for Agriculture." I take it that by "a representative" he means that there will be on this consultative committee a member of the staff of the Department of Agriculture. If he does not mean that, the word "representative" is a very unhappy one. I suggest to Senator Counihan that he withdraw the amendment and propose on the Report Stage an amendment that there should be as a member of the consultative committee a person who is a practical farmer. Then he would get his point and the Minister could have the civil servant from the Department of Agriculture also on the committee. If the Minister does not mean to have a civil servant, then I suggest he alter the word "representative" to "a person nominated by the Minister for Agriculture", as the word "representative" merely means that the person is to go there to carry out the Minister's bidding without having any separate views of his own. I would like the Minister to indicate which view he had when framing the section.

I have the greatest sympathy in the world for the Minister in coming here, if he is expected to decide whether it is Senator Counihan or Senator Baxter who is representing the farmers. I have always done my best to throw oil on troubled waters and prevent rows here, but I am afraid I have not been very successful. Senator Counihan never loses an opportunity of trying to have a rap at the Government. Any stick is good enough to use to beat the Government, but I suggest he should change the stick, as he is not getting very far with the present one. On every possible occasion, the suggestion is that the Government has some war or vendetta against the farmers. I cannot see that there is any provision in this Bill to ensure that a man who happens to be a farmer or a farmer's son will be ruled out from being a member of this consultative committee.

Senator Counihan, in one of his wild fancies, roams off to the Tully Stud, but as he happened to do so and as he happened to try to use that particular item for an attack on the Government, it is only right that somebody should defend the people on that board who are not here to defend themselves.

I did not say anything against any member of that board.

The Chair ruled out Senator Counihan.

I beg the Senator's pardon. The Leas-Chathaoirleach did, but Senator Counihan did not pay any attention.

On the Tully Stud Board there were four men, as far as I know. Three of them are at the present time practical farmers and the fourth is a man born and reared on the land. One of them happens to be a man with a dairy of 200 cows. If he is not a man with a knowledge of the cattle trade, I would like to know who is.

I suggest that Senator Counihan was less successful in getting a practical draftsman than in getting a practical farmer. If the amendment is accepted, the paragraph will read: "A representative who shall be a practical farmer to the Minister for Agriculture". I do not think that reads too well, and I am not sure that anyone would know what it means. Senator Counihan may know. Apart from that, I have grave doubts as to the wisdom of making a special reference to farmers as distinct from other people who will be associated with the consultative committee. We have a committee sitting elsewhere, trying to find out the meaning of the words "people with knowledge and practical experience". Notwithstanding our difficulty, we are using the same phrase here in relation to knowledge and experience of the work of county councils, and so forth.

I imagine—and probably Senator Counihan will take this to heart—that the Minister is putting in this section merely as window-dressing. The same section appeared in the British Act of 1919 and the British Government set up a consultative council which the Irish Government promptly abolished in 1922. There has been no consultative council of any kind in the last 24 years. This was a section to which I drew special attention on the last occasion.

It seemed to me to be the most cynical provision in the whole Bill—to reintroduce a section from the British Act of 1919 which was out of use for the last 24 years. I do not know why Senator Counihan should worry about it. I intended to put down an amendment on this section when I first looked at it but I came to the conclusion that it would be merely a waste of time, that it would be merely proving that I was as innocent as the Minister expects us to be in passing this Bill. What I wanted to get into this sub-section was some reference to a person being appointed to the committee who believed in forestry. I think that is the most important person to provide for— somebody who believes in additional forestry. Senator Counihan will not give me any guarantee that a practical farmer would agree with it. We have a provision that one of the members must be a person having practical experience of matters relating to forestry—an almost sure guarantee that he does not agree with additional forestry. We have also a provision that the members shall include a person with knowledge and experience of the home-grown timber trade. Such men coming on the consultative council, if it is set up—I lay emphasis on the "if"—will do nothing as far as I can see to promote afforestation.

I am very glad to see Senator Quirke appear in a new role— that of peacemaker—not having been used to him in that connection. I do not think there is anything commendable in this amendment. Why a farmer, above anybody else, should be selected for special mention in the matter, passes my understanding. I should think that a representative of village carpenters would be more suitable than a practical farmer. "Practical" very often, in relation to farming, has as bad a taste in my mouth as "propaganda". I think it only right that the Minister for Agriculture should nominate a representative. He will figure from the agricultural point of view in any point at issue between those who argue for the acquisition of land for forestry purposes and those who argue for its retention for agricultural purposes.

Then we have a person having practical experience of matters relating to forestry, a person with knowledge and experience of the home-grown timber trade and a person with knowledge and experience of labour matters—that might be Senator Duffy, or it might be Senator Counihan who is a farmer. A person with knowledge and experience of the work of county councils would be certainly a farmer. With the exception of labour members, I am not aware of anybody on the Cork County Council, with which I am familiar, who is not a farmer.

There is nothing to prevent you getting a farmer with these qualifications.

Nothing.

Does the Minister say why the Minister for Agriculture will not nominate a civil servant?

I do not wish to curb him in any way.

If the Minister wishes to leave it open to the Minister for Agriculture to nominate either a civil servant or an outsider, then the word should be "nominate" not "represent".

May I ask the Minister whether it is really intended to set up the committee provided for in this section at all?

There is a difficulty there. The trouble in this country is that there are very few people who would be really effective on such a council. In Great Britain you have certain people who take a tremendous interest in forestry and who have a most valuable influence on Government politics and in helping Government Departments. You have very few people of that nature here. I really inserted that section in the hope that we shall be able to develop an interest in matters of forestry here—not that I expect any immediate benefit from the creation of a consultative council but in the hope that we shall develop a civic spirit with regard to forestry that is not apparent at present and that is very valuable in other countries that I have taken into consideration.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is the amendment being withdrawn?

On the understanding that the Minister will consider it and put it down in an altered form on the next day. I would prefer if the Minister would bring in an amendment providing for the inclusion of such a person as I suggest, not that I think that such councils are worth a whole lot, because I think most of the consultative councils are only make-believe councils that are rarely consulted. It is on very rare occasions they are called together. They are called together perhaps once a year and whatever advice they have to offer is not taken seriously.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 10 agreed to.

I think there is a misunderstanding between the Minister and Senator Counihan.

SECTION 11.

Question proposed: "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

There is a word in this section which has caused me to wonder whether it is an accident or designedly incorrect. Sub-section (2) says:—

"An authorised officer, who enters on any land in pursuance of his power under this section...."

Is that word in the singular designedly or is it a misprint?

Power or powers?

Is it deliberately in the singular?

It means the same thing.

I doubt whether it means the same thing. I imagine that if he used the words "in pursuance of his powers under this section" it would refer to something general, but if you refer to the matter in the word "power" it seems you ought to define what is meant by "power".

Power implies penalty.

The power is the power to enter.

And survey.

It says:—

"Any authorised officer may enter on and survey any land...."

I suggest that the section should be amended by the insertion of the words "...any power vested in him under this section."

I will consider that.

Section 11 agreed to.
Section 12 and 13 agreed to.
SECTION 14.

Senator Sweetman has just been called out and I propose amendment No. 5 standing in his name:—

To add at the end of the section the words: "save in respect of any point of law for which an appeal shall lie to the Supreme Court."

This provides that an appeal shall lie on a matter of law to the Supreme Court from the appeal tribunal.

I would suggest that the Minister should consider this amendment. The appeal tribunal is, so to speak, constituted as an appeal court from the decision of the lay commissioners in respect of the matters mentioned in Part III of the Bill, namely, the application by the Minister for an Order to extinguish easements; secondly, an application by the owners of timber for temporary rights-of-way for transport of the timber; thirdly, an application by the Minister for the creation of rights-of-way created by him and fourthly, compulsory acquisition of land. Under the Land Act of 1933 which set up the appeal tribunal, an appeal is given to the Supreme Court from a determination of the appeal tribunal as to whether or not any question was a question of law.

Under the Act of 1933, the appeal tribunal became in effect the successor of the judicial commissioner. Prior to that time an appeal lay to the Supreme Court from a decision of the judicial commissioner on a question of law, and after the Act of 1933, an appeal lay to the Supreme Court from the decision of the appeal tribunal on a question of law. This Bill provides that the appeal tribunal shall be final on any appeal made to it under Part III of the Act in respect of the matter I have mentioned.

Senator Sweetman's amendment is to give a right of appeal from the decision of the appeal tribunal on a question of law. That appeal should be to the Supreme Court. Undoubtedly questions of law will arise. Under Section 19 of the Bill the Minister will make an application to the lay commissioners for an Order extinguishing easements. Of course, the extinguishment of easements will affect the persons who are entitled to those easements and they will be entitled to get compensation. In the same way, where an application is made by the owner of timber for a temporary right-of-way over lands, in Section 20 called servient tenements, although it may not strictly speaking be servient. There may be cases where a timber merchant may buy timber from the dominant tenant and wish to take his timber across some other person's land to the public road.

In the year 1921 there was a case decided in the courts, Maguire and Brown, which went to the House of Lords. In that case timber had been bought in a moat which was land-locked and the person who got the timber wished to take it to the public road. The owner of the surrounding land objected and the matter went to court. The owner of the timber or the person on whose land the timber was grown claimed there was no way of necessity entitling him to take the timber out. It was held by the courts that the only right-of-way that existed to the land-locked moat was a pathway for the purpose of enabling antiquarians to visit objects of antiquarian interest in the moat and that right-of-way pathway did not entitle the owner of timber to use it for the purpose of taking the timber to the public road.

Under this Bill a person cutting timber in a land-locked area will be enabled to obtain a temporary right-of-way to the public road for the purpose of taking the timber away, but it will be necessary for him to apply to the lay commissioners and there may be an appeal to the tribunal afterwards. In addition, under this Bill the Minister will apply to the lay commissioners for the purpose of enabling rights-of-way to be created, rights-of-way which, of course, were never there, and he can also apply in the same way regarding the compulsory acquisition of land. These questions will arise and the exercise of powers of compulsory acquisition will also come on to be dealt with so, therefore, I think myself that questions of law must inevitably arise.

Now, at the present time under the Land Acts, or under the Land Act of 1933, a question before the appeal tribunal is either a question of law or a question of fact. This Bill does not make any provision for the determination. It is, perhaps, assumed that it is a question of fact, but undoubtedly, whether a question is a question of law or not, is in itself a question of law and, therefore, I think that following the precedent set in the Land Purchase Acts that wherever a tribunal such as an appeal tribunal which, after all, although it may be constituted with a judge of the High Court as its presiding member, nevertheless in a sense really a tribunal because a question of law may be decided by a majority, including a layman with the judge, or by two laymen.

I think myself that it would be advisable that, on any question of law, an appeal should lie to the Supreme Court, because if there is any flaw in legislation it can only be ascertained and detected in the ultimate resort in the Supreme Court. A number of persons may suffer in silence, and must suffer in silence, as long as the matter is confined to what I may call a tribunal of limited jurisdiction. Therefore, in order, so to speak, to give all persons a fair crack of the whip, and in order that the Act itself might be interpreted in a correct sense, I think that where a question of law arises the party aggrieved should have the opportunity of going to the Supreme Court. I also think that such an opportunity, of having the Act interpreted by the highest judicial tribunal in the land, would be of benefit to the appeal tribunal itself in any further appeals which may come before it. Therefore, I think that the section in this Bill which makes an appeal to the appeal tribunal final is, as I say, a flaw in the Bill, especially as this Bill is, so to speak, in these matters an innovation. The Minister, under the Bill, can, provided he obtains the necessary order, extinguish easements, and can, so to speak, create easements, and persons may obtain rights over the lands of other people. The question of compulsory acquisition also arises, so that these matters, I think, are more or less in this Bill legislative novelties.

Therefore, I would suggest that an appeal should be allowed from the appeal tribunal to the Supreme Court on any question of law. I think it is in uniformity with all legislation that, where what I may call inferior tribunals are empowered to determine matters of law which may affect the rights and the property of a citizen, the citizen at all events should be entitled to go to the highest court in the land in order to have an affirmative ruling whether or not the inferior tribunal was or was not right in law. Although the appeal tribunal has, as I say, a High Court judge as its chairman, that, in my submission, is not sufficient to deprive an appellant of the right of appeal to the Supreme Court on a question of law, because there is an appeal to the Supreme Court from that very same judge sitting as a High Court judge on a question of law. That appeal is guaranteed by the Constitution. Therefore, I think myself that any legislation limiting the right of appeal on questions of law to inferior tribunals is, in itself, contrary to the Constitution.

I have no great objection to the principle embodied in the amendment. The only reason why provision is not made is because we felt that there would hardly be an appeal on a question of law. If the Senator withdraws the amendment I will try to meet him on the next stage of the Bill. The amendment, as it stands, would hardly meet the case.

I agree with the Minister, if the principle be accepted. The amendment would be quite intricate. I merely put the amendment down in the words set out for the purpose of getting the principle tested.

It might be more appropriate in regard to the acquisition of land than in relation to the acquisition of easements.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 14 agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed: "That Section 15 stand part of the Bill."

On the section, I would ask the Minister to consider whether it might not be more satisfactory to fix the price that is to be paid, not by reference to Section 2 of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, but by reference to the section under which the resumption price of land is paid by the Land Commission. There is a slight difference between the two. I think it would be more equitable to adopt the resumption price method.

I do not think there is very much difference between the two systems. In my opinion, neither party gives enough for the land. The trouble about this is that in all cases of compulsory acquisition the compensation is fixed by the land valuers' department, and I think it would be very hard to depart from that in this Bill. I suggest that it be left as it is.

I think it does not make any difference.

The real difference, I think, is that you can get greater compensation for disturbance under resumption than you can get under Section 2 of the 1919 Act. There might be cases where compensation for disturbance would be of great importance.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 16.

I move amendment No. 6:—

In sub-section (1), lines 14-15 to delete the words "as measured by them or where they so think proper" and to substitute in lieu thereof the words "as (with the agreement of the parties to such proceedings) measured by them and otherwise".

This deals with a somewhat technical matter. The point, in non-technical language, is that there is an officer appointed and paid by the State to determine the amount that is proper for costs. He is known as the Taxing Master. The purport of my amendment is to ensure that that person, who has the knowledge, is to be the person to determine the amount of costs to be paid, unless the parties otherwise agree. I have seen cases where the lay commissioners and where judges have fixed costs—"measure" is the technical word for fixed—too high. I have also seen cases where they have fixed them too low. Since there is a person who has the qualifications for doing this work, I suggest that the responsibility ought to be placed on him, unless the parties otherwise agree. In small cases everybody agrees, but in cases where there might be a reasonable margin of error either way, then I think the costs should be fixed by the Taxing Master, and not by a person who has not got the experience for doing that work.

I agree with everything that Senator Sweetman has said. I think it is right that the costs should be measured by the Taxing Master. He is the proper person to do it. He knows how to tax costs. Otherwise, you may have different lay commissioners fixing different amounts, and that, I suggest, would be entirely wrong. I support Senator Sweetman's amendment. It is the practice in court not to measure costs except by consent of the parties. The primary right is to have the costs taxed and that is the reason taxing masters are appointed. They are experts on costs. Even judges are not experts on the question of costs. I should go so far as to say that counsel are not experts on the question of costs, because counsel are concerned only with their own fees. The solicitor who acts for a client in these matters has a great deal of outlay in connection with engineers and perhaps accountants and other expert witnesses, who often-times claim higher fees than counsel. The judge, in measuring costs, might have in mind merely the amount of counsel's fee or some matter of that sort.

On the whole, it is better that the costs should be reviewed by a taxing master, who is an expert, than by the tribunal or the lay commissioners. A tribunal may be in a hurry. Often-times, a tribunal gets impatient or takes some objection to the conduct of a case and may penalise a litigant in costs. It might do unconscious injustice. Therefore, I think that the question of costs should be referred to taxation in every case unless the parties agree that the tribunal concerned should measure the costs.

Senator Sweetman congratulated himself a few days ago on having got an admission from me. I think that we should be very grateful for the admission made by Senator Ryan, that counsel are concerned only with their fees. If that were the basis on which we were to argue this amendment, I am afraid that I should have to reject it. I am largely in agreement with Senator Sweetman's amendment but it would need certain adjustments.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 16 and 18 agreed to.
SECTION 19.

I move amendment No. 7:—

To add at the end of sub-section (2) the words: "and shall serve a copy of such application upon the occupier (if any) and upon the person who appears to him to be the owner of the dominant tenement to which such easement is attached if it is reasonably practicable to ascertain that person".

This amendment is self-explanatory. I have taken the wording from another section of the Bill which, for the life of me, I cannot find at the moment. Where it is known that there is a person entitled to the right, that person ought to get a copy of the notice. That should be an addition to publication in Iris Oifigiúil and the local papers. There will be cases in which the right will be merely one to the public to walk across a certain piece of land. Obviously, every member of the public could not be served with notice but, where a specific person is concerned and where it is reasonably practicable for the Minister to ascertain who that person is, he should serve him personally with the notice or serve him by means of registered post.

I agree.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
SECTION 20.
Question proposed: "That Section 20 stand part of the Bill."

This is a very complicated section and, quite frankly, I confess that, at the time at my disposal, I have not been able to understand it as fully as I should like. I want to know what security the person over whose land the right of way is being given will get that the various provisions of the Bill will be complied with in regard to putting the land back into proper condition at the end of the period. What security will that person get that the way-leave fee will be paid? It seems to me that, as the section is drafted, a "smart Alec" could go in, get his order, exercise his rights and vanish into thin air. The person who owned the land would have certain, nice, theoretical legal rights but would have no way of enforcing them because the person would be gone. This is only a temporary way-leave and, where compensation for it is to be paid, it should be provided that the compensation be paid before the way-leave is used. There should be some method of providing security that the land would be put back into condition at the end of the period. There is, of course, a bare legal right. It is quite proper that there should be a legal right but more is needed. I have a case clearly in mind at the moment. A man is buying timber in a certain county. I know very well that, if that man got a way-leave and got the timber out, if the owner of the land had to wait until he had got the timber across his land to exercise his legal right to way-leave payment and to having his land put back into the original condition, he would never succeed. If a decree were lodged against that man, it would be returned "no goods". There should be some means of protecting the owner. It is quite proper that we should provide means of getting the timber out but there should be some means of protecting the owner of the land concerned.

I agree with Senator Sweetman. I know of cases where people purchasing timber purchased in the name of a man of straw. That person is no mark under the Workmen's Compensation Act. Neither would he be a mark in regard to any injury done to the land. I think that the owner of the land should be protected against such people.

There is another aspect of this section, which deals with the grant of temporary rights-of-way, to which I should like to call attention. That is the provision contained in sub-section (6) relating to the registration of the right-of-way as a burden in the Land Registry. The sub-section states:-

"Where the land over which a right-of-way is granted... is registered under the Act of 1891, the Minister shall send a copy of the Order to the registering authority under the Act of 1891 and the said registering authority shall register the said right-of-way as a burden affecting the said land".

There is no provision there for the cancellation of that burden at the end of the period for which the right-of-way was required and, therefore, there will remain on the folio a burden of a right-of-way perhaps for all time. Therefore, I think some amendment should be made in that sub-section dealing with the cancellation of that burden when the purpose for which the right-of-way is granted has been effected. I am simply making that suggestion for consideration by the Minister between now and the Report Stage.

I think that all the legal powers are there. The legal powers of recovery, of course, are there already. What Senator Sweetman is trying to provide against is a man of straw. I do not know if we can ever provide against him. I will look into it and see.

I am satisfied.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 21 and 22 agreed to.
SECTION 23.

I move amendment No. 8:—

In sub-section (14), page 20, to delete the words "two years" in line 52 and to substitute therefore the words "six months".

This provision in the Bill, quite frankly, appals me. The situation is very simple. The Minister decides that certain lands might suit him for forestry. He takes the preliminary steps and, having taking the preliminary steps, the compensation is fixed. Then the Minister has two years during which he can sit down and see whether the compensation has been fixed too high or not. If we consider it from sheer practical economics, we all know and understand that during those two years the owner cannot possibly sell the land; he cannot give a bit of it to one of his children to build a house on the land; he can do nothing in regard to it for two years because the compensation is fixed at the beginning of the period. Then at the end of the two years, the Minister can in effect sit back and say: "I do not want the land after all." I consider that is a grossly unfair procedure when viewed in that way. On the other hand, I can quite understand the Minister's point of view that, in connection with land to be used for forestry, regard must be had not only to the suitability of the land but also to the economic price that is going to be paid for it. Land for forestry purposes is not perhaps in the same line as land for the building of a cottage by a public authority or even for the Land Commission because, very often, in fact almost entirely, in both cases, the land is wanted in the particular place and the public authority or the Land Commission must get that land in that particular place.

With forestry it is not the same and it does not matter very much to the Minister whether he gets the land in townland A or in townland B. Therefore, even though a short period will impose hardship on the owner, I am quite prepared to give him a period in which to make up his mind but I do think that to tie up an owner for two years, during which he cannot deal in any way with his land is, to put it mildly, a gross infringement of the rights of the owners of property.

I would suggest to the Minister that he really ought to consider this very carefully and that it ought to be possible for him and his Department to ascertain whether they want the land or not within a period of six months. Suppose, for example, the Minister were to apply immediately this Bill goes through and the compensation were to be fixed immediately and then the Minister was to sit back and wait for two years. I am afraid there are very few of us who believe that two years hence the price of agricultural land will remain as it is to-day. Yet, for two years the Minister would have blocked the sale of that land if the owner wanted to sell it and at the end of the two years he need not continue under the acquisition Order. He can let the acquisition Order lapse and he can make a new acquisition Order after two years and one day, when the price has come down. He can acquire the same land on the basis of two years and one day after the first Order, when the price is reduced, and he can take it then. As the section is phrased, it amounts to this, as if the Minister had said to the owner, "heads I win; tails you lose". I do not really think that the Minister is as bad as all that.

It does seem a hardship on land-owners that that provision should be put in. Possibly it could be met in another way, say, by a provision that any loss sustained would be met by the Minister or a provision that if an Order was made by the Minister and not acted upon that the land can never be acquired again for the same purpose. Some such method might be adopted.

If the Minister allows the Order to lapse, of course, he cannot make another Order. The application must be made to the lay commissioners and the question will arise then whether the Minister could make a second application or not in respect of the same land. I do not know that that would be so.

Why not? Unless it is prohibited, he could.

At all events, I am sure there must be some reason why the period of two years is mentioned in the Bill. No doubt the Minister has some reason of his own for that purpose but perhaps it might be better that the Minister should take possession within a reasonable time, even though he does not proceed to plant or to carry out his work on the land. At all events, it would be advisable to put the owner out of pain as quickly as possible.

I wonder is Senator Ryan thinking of the old maxim that you cannot imperil a man twice for the same offence. I do not see what there is to prevent the Minister applying for a second Order.

I agreed with Senator O'Dea.

I have a good deal of sympathy with the point of view of Senator Sweetman, but this proposal to complete the deed, shall we say, in six months, does not give sufficient time. I do not anticipate the difficulties that the Senator has envisaged if you are merely dealing with one individual but there may be a complication of interests, even though some of them might be of a very tenuous nature. It may be difficult to trace ownership, and so on. Many matters of that sort arise in the type of land which is purchased which is, in great measure, very often held in common and it is because of the complexity of ownership that the Forestry Department is anxious for sufficient time to decide ownership and to decide questions of the allocation of compensation.

If it is a straight deal between one or two owners and the Land Commission there would be really no difficulty about it. Of course, it is a great advance on the present legislation, when there is no limitation on any such order. Now, we are bringing in a limitation of two years. It is only because of the complication of interest that it is to be kept. I do not envisage the difficulty that the Senator envisages, if it is only one or two persons that are concerned.

Has the Minister got the power to withdraw? If he decides to acquire land, must he not go on with the proceedings?

The order made by the lay commissioners authorising the Minister to acquire lands for forestry purposes remains in force for any length of time.

I quite agree, but the Minister must acquire, as the law stands at present. I speak subject to correction, as it is not a branch of law of which I know quite a lot. I understand the situation is that, at present, the Minister may apply for an Order and it remains in force indefinitely. The other side can come along and, if the Minister is dilatory, I think they can force him to carry on with the job. The Minister now, for the first time, is taking power to say after the Order has been made, that he will not carry on and he cannot be forced to do so.

Yes, but the question of compensation would not remain outstanding and could be dealt with swiftly. If the Minister, having had the compensation fixed, wished to withdraw, it certainly could not take two years. He could do it in a very short time.

Business suspended at 6 p.m., and resumed at 7 p.m.

The Minister does not visualise any delay where he is dealing with one owner, but where he is dealing with four pieces of adjacent land he wants to have sufficient time to negotiate for each of the four pieces, as it could easily happen that, unless he got the whole four, the one piece or three pieces acquired would be of no use to him. He could meet my difficulty quite easily in that respect. He makes up his mind that he wants to acquire a certain piece of land, of which there are four different owners. In his explanation of that, he implied that he was going to serve the four acquisition Orders piecemeal. I suggest that, if he waited until he was in a position to deal with all four pieces together, it would not take anything like four years. It might be common property that he was going to acquire the land eventually, but that is a very different thing from an actual acquisition Order being on the stocks.

I think the Minister should make an effort to see if there is not some method by which he could avoid holding a man up for two years, by which he could avoid the owner of land being in the position for two years that he could not sell it, he could not build on it and does not know, even if he cleans the ditches or puts up new fences, whether that work will be a total loss. Once the acquisition Order is issued and the compensation fixed, no man but a fool is going to spend anything on that land. If he does, his compensation having been fixed, it will be a sheer loss to him in the event of the Minister taking it over. I think the Minister could meet the cases he has in mind, by arranging to apply for his acquisition Orders more or less concurrently. Then this difficulty would not arise. I would ask him seriously to reduce very substantially the period of two years during which an owner of land will be tied up with very great concomitant hardship.

There is just one point in connection with the duration of the acquisition Order, which has not been referred to by Senator Sweetman. Once an acquisition Order has been made, something further may have to be done, where the land subject to it is held with other land and both are subject to a State annuity or to some common charge. As a result, after the acquisition Order has been made, it will be necessary for the Minister to apply to the lay commissioners for the apportionment of the common charge. Section 25 provides an appeal to the appeals tribunal within two months of the date of the Order for apportionment by the lay commissioners. Consequently, it is quite possible that, in a number of cases, the two years may be used up with those preliminary matters. It would be difficult in those cases to shorten the period. It might be possible—I do not say it is, as there should be some uniformity—to shorten it in respect of lands that are not subject in conjunction with other lands, to common charges. The matter is not quite so simple as Senator Sweetman would have us believe. Perhaps the Minister, between this and the Report Stage, would explore the possibility of meeting Senator Sweetman, as far as it is possible to do so within the limits of the Bill.

It seems to me that Senator Sweetman anticipates a good deal of difficulty and inconvenience for the owners of land that it is proposed to acquire. There are certain compulsory powers contained in the Bill and, at some stage during the progress of the Bill through the Dáil or the Seanad, I explained the limitation of these compulsory powers—that compulsion in regard to forestry was not compulsion in its ordinary meaning. Land for forestry must be acquired almost entirely by agreement. The compulsion proposed in the Bill will merely apply to one person with some form of right who is holding up the completion of the deal when all the others want the deal to go through.

We have in this case a number of people dealing with the Forestry Department all of whom are willing to transfer their holdings to the Department. In 90 per cent. of the cases, the type of land that is being sold is practically useless for any other purpose. It will cause no inconvenience in regard to building because it is not building ground. It would be most unusual to build on land of the type envisaged as being suitable for our purposes. It would not be offered to the Forestry Department nor would there be any general agreement to give it to the Forestry Department if there was an alternative way of selling it. It is not land that is likely to be improved by fencing or work of that kind. The procedure of making an Order is swift enough. That can be done quickly and the fixing of compensation can be carried through quickly also. If the Forestry Department is dealing with one, two, three or four persons who are readily available there should be no delay, but very often the people with whom you have to deal do not live in Ireland. They may be anywhere else in the world. While it may be suggested that the Land Commission and the Forestry Department are very slow in carrying through such deals, it is our experience that the people who create the slowness are the lawyers. They do not reply very quickly to letters or they may not make out the documents of ownership properly.

The Minister is not suggesting that a Government Department is more expeditious?

I am not attacking Senator Sweetman at all. I know how efficient he is.

You would not mind that a bit.

I think a six months' period would be quite sufficient in 90 per cent. of the cases but where there are complicated issues of ownership, or where complexities of any kind arise, the Forestry Department wants a maximum of two years to complete the job. That period is never likely to be needed unless in exceptional cases. It will not create an inconvenience for people who own a type of land that has no alternative market and which they are quite willing to give to the Department.

Would the Minister tell me why the difficulties to which he referred, in regard to ownership, etc., could not be smoothed out just as easily before the acquisition Order as after it?

I assume naturally that before you bring matters in train for acquisition, the Order must be there. It is when the Order is made that all the difficulties arise.

That is right.

Would the Minister be prepared to go half-way to meet me, and make the period 12 months?

I have a great desire to agree but it would be impossible. I do not think the Senator need worry about the time taken to deal with ordinary cases but there are extraordinary cases where, if we cannot conclude the agreement which everybody desires, we shall have to start all over again, creating all the difficulties that have arisen in regard to acquisition in the past. I do not really anticipate difficulties and I wish the Senator would agree with me.

Would the Minister meet me in this respect: if an acquisition Order has been made and the owner goes to the Minister and satisfies him that he would be damnified, by not knowing definitely within a very reasonable time, whether the Minister is or is not going to take the land ultimately, would the Minister meet that man by giving him an assurance or a reply before two years expire? There might be a case where a person was in the situation that he owned land, that the Minister had served an acquisition Order in respect of that land, and that the owner had got an alternative offer or that he needed to sell the land to somebody else. He might go to the Minister and satisfy him that it was essential to know there and then—when I say "there and then" I do not mean at one interview but within a reasonable time— what the Minister's decision was. The Minister says that will happen very seldom. I am prepared to accept that but in the very odd case in which it does happen, if the owner puts the matter before the Minister, will the Minister say "I will tell you within a month"?

It is quite easy to say that to the owner. But, again, if the owner is in a position to say that to the Forestry Department, he must have made arrangements so as to bring other owners into line. It should be as easy for the Forestry Department to bring all the owners into line as for an individual to do it. I do not want to inflict any injury on a particular owner. If we are holding up money which affects an individual, money which he can realise by an alternative sale, I think a grave wrong will be done.

That is the kind of case I had in mind.

We will take every precaution to try to avoid such a condition. The necessity for holding the maximum of two years is because of the intricacies of ownership to which I have referred.

I withdraw the amendment.

Under protest?

I reserve my right to put it down on the Report Stage when I have considered it further.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 23 put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 9:—

Before Section 24 to insert a new section as follows:—

24. Where an acquisition Order has been made in respect of any land and no vesting Order is made under Section 26 hereof, the Minister shall pay to every person having an interest in such land the costs properly and necessarily incurred by such person as between solicitor and client and such costs shall in default of agreement as to the amount thereof be taxed by a taxing master of the High Court.

This is a small point. I am asking for it to cover a situation where the Minister applied for an acquisition Order and ultimately did not take the land. The owner of the land might, in the interval, have incurred substantial costs either during the course of the actual proceedings or in regard to the actual abstract, and I think where the Minister moved to get the acquisition Order, and, no doubt for very good reasons, changed his mind, the owner of the land who might have had to incur costs should be indemnified in respect of the money he had to pay as a result of the Minister's act.

This new section presupposes that in some cases no vesting Order would be made under Section 26. Section 26 itself provides that, where an acquisition Order in respect of any land is in force, the Minister may, if, in his absolute discretion, he so thinks fit, make, subject to sub-section (2) of this section, an Order under this section vesting the land in him on a specified day not earlier than one month after the making thereof. Sub-section (2) provides that the Minister shall not make a vesting Order in respect of any land which is subject in conjunction with any other land to any annual sum unless an Order has been made under Section 25 of this Act in relation to such land.

The intention of Section 26, I take it, is that in the ordinary way the Minister, when he acquires land, will make the vesting Order vesting the lands in him. In other words, he acquires land for the purpose of acquisition and the vesting Order is the machinery by which ownership is transferred from the former owner to the Minister. This new section of Senator Sweetman's presupposes that in some cases the Minister will not make a vesting Order—he will allow the acquisition Order to remain in force for two years and then expire. The question here will then arise as to what costs have been incurred by the owner in such a case.

Costs of negotiation about price, for example.

That may be, but the section, to my mind, is very wide and I think it is rather a new point in legislation.

So is the principle of withdrawing after making an acquisition Order.

My own view is this: if the Minister allows an acquisition Order to remain in force for two years without making a vesting Order—that is to say, if he allows the acquisition Order to lapse by effluxion of time, he cannot apply for another vesting Order in respect of the same land. In the Supreme Court some time ago it was held that a case stated could not be stated twice by the Circuit Court to the Supreme Court, and it is quite possible that the lay commissioners would say, and that their view might be upheld by the appeal tribunal, that this would be an abuse of the powers of the court in allowing an Order made to expire without acting upon it. Therefore, I think it is most unlikely —it would be almost unthinkable—that the Minister should obtain an acquisition Order and do nothing on foot of it.

While I am always in favour of costs, I think in this case there should be something tangible which would be the subject-matter of costs, such as I may say, the showing of title. If the person from whom the lands have been acquired had gone to the expense of showing his title to the Minister and then the Minister refused to proceed, there might be some reason for allowing him his costs, but it appears to me that the machinery under this Act is this: the Minister will vest the land and let the title be shown afterwards and the purchase money. That might be how the question of title will be solved. At all events, I think this amendment is rather too wide and nebulous and I cannot see it has any great merits.

The procedure is this: when land is acquired the price is fixed either by agreement or by arbitration. Now, if it is fixed by arbitration, the arbitrator awards costs to the owner of the land. Whether fixed by arbitration, or by agreement under the Land Clauses Acts, the owner is entitled to all his costs, showing title and everything else, because the Land Clauses Acts apply to every case of this nature. That is the law, as I understand it, and I think there is no question of doubt about it that whether taken by agreement or not, the costs of the owner must be paid.

I do not know if that is Document No. 3 which Senator Sweetman has.

You might rather have it from Document No. 2.

Section 16 of the Bill contains provision for the payment of costs which I think covers everything the Senator wishes. I think that what the Senator wants is that when the Minister makes an acquisition Order, whether the deal is complete or not, where costs are incurred by the owners of the land, the Forestry Section will meet those costs. Is that what the Senator had in mind?

That is what was in my mind, but I do not think it is quite what is in Section 16. This is really a technical matter, and if the House agrees I am prepared to withdraw the amendment and see if I can satisfy the Minister between this and the Report Stage.

I think everything that is needed is contained in Section 16 which gives the commissioners power to pay expenses in all cases. That covers cases where we do not acquire and where we do acquire. Naturally, it would be very wrong for the Forestry Department to institute proceedings for the acquisition of land and put the owners to cost, and then afterwards not pay the costs.

That is what I want to prevent.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Sections 24 to 30, inclusive, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

I move amendment No. 10:—

Before Section 31 to insert a new section as follows:-

31.—Where the owners of any land acquired by the Minister for planting purposes do not agree with the price offered, the owners shall have the right to appeal to an arbitrator appointed by the Minister, who shall hear evidence from the Minister and from the owners and shall then determine the price to be paid.

The procedure that I am suggesting in my amendment is that which is followed generally by the Department of Local Government and Public Health and by county councils when acquiring land for building or other purposes, and also by the Minister for Agriculture when acquiring land for any particular purpose. I cannot see why the Forestry Department should not pursue the same policy when acquiring land for planting. The Minister says that my object in discussing a Bill of this nature is to jack-up the price of land.

Not a bad idea.

I am sure the Minister will agree that it would require a lot of jacking-up before the Land Commission could be got to bring their prices up to a figure that would be regarded as just or equitable by the owners of the land they acquire. On the Second Reading of the Bill, the statement was made in this House that 529 acres of land had been taken over by the Forestry Department at 4½d. an acre. When I read the statement, I thought it was only a joke, but the Minister admitted that the statement was practically true. I think the House must feel shocked that 529 acres of anybody's land, whether it be mountain land or otherwise, should be acquired, and that practically no compensation should be paid for it.

When I read the statement I did not believe that any Department of State would be guilty of such an act. I believe the Minister's justification was that the people who owned the land said that it was of no use, and that they had not paid rates on it for a few years. We all know that for some years after 1932 there were many classes of farmers who were not able to pay their rates. I am not going to develop that point now, but, for five or six years after 1932, grazing land for any class of live stock showed very little profit.

Senator Baxter said on the same occasion that mountain land used for sheep farming was not worth more than 3/5 per acre. I think what he said was that that would be the value of the flesh of the sheep and the wool. I think I know something about the value of sheep, and of what people get for grazing sheep on mountains. I cannot allow the Senator's statement to pass without saying that it was altogether wrong.

What about 1933 and 1934? What were sheep worth at that time?

Let us take the last three or four years when the price of wool was not controlled. It was about 1/3 or 1/4 per lb. so that the 4 lb. or 4½ lbs. of wool on a sheep would be worth in or about 6/-. Those mountains are used principally for feeding ewes. You would have one lamb on each ewe. An acre of even the worst mountain land would feed a sheep. For a number of years, the price paid for lambs has been from 10/- to 12/6 each, and sometimes 15/- or 16/-. I am quoting average prices. The Senator's statement must have some effect on the Land Commission and on the Minister's advisers who are taking up land, especially when coming from an expert like Senator Baxter.

The Minister would, I am sure, regard the Senator as being a much greater expert than he would admit me to be.

I think the Senator's statement was quite wrong. I am putting myself as an expert against Senator Baxter so far as mountain sheep are concerned, and the profits to be made from them. I have bought sheep off the mountains of Kerry, off the Connemara mountains and sheep that were grazed on the Galtee mountains. I have even bought sheep that were grazed on "Hungry Hill". I have seen sheep that came off some of the Kerry mountains—two and three-year-old wethers—and they were as fat as if they had been fed on County Meath land. I am not against forestry.

What I want to say to the Minister is, that when land is taken compulsorily, the owners should be paid fair and reasonable compensation. In addition to getting what would be the market value of the land, they are also entitled to some compensation for disturbance. In those parts of the country to which I have referred, the people concerned depend on the grazing of sheep on the mountains for their principal means of livelihood as well as on the prices they get for their sheep and lambs, and the wool off the sheep. If they are to be deprived of their rights, they are at least entitled to reasonable compensation. If they get that, then the Department can plant away and satisfy Senator Baxter. I contend that no matter whose land is taken, whether it belongs to the descendants of Cromwell or of Abraham, that so long as the owners of it hold a legal title to it, they should get reasonable compensation. The Minister says he is very anxious to have goodwill in respect of the planting of land. The first essential in that regard is to get the people to believe that they will get reasonable compensation for the land to be taken over. No farmer has any confidence whatever in the Land Commission's valuing of land. I could quote hundreds of cases to prove that statement, but I do not want to go into that question now. The fact—I think that it is an admitted fact—remains that we have no confidence in the Land Commission in regard to the price they fix for land. I hope the Minister will see his way to accept the amendment, and I assure him that it was in the interest of forestry development I put it down.

My friend, Senator Counihan, astounds me. This new section he proposes is to be found already in Section 15. Under Section 15, the Minister must appoint an arbitrator to determine the compensation. I am only sorry that my friend, Senator Counihan, did not support me on Section 15, when I was trying to get the Minister to insert therein a provision for compensation for disturbance. If I had the benefit of his support on that section, I have no doubt whatever that the Minister would have caved in at once. Senator Counihan said that we—by which, I take it, he meant those of us in this orbit, with himself—have no confidence in the Land Commission in regard to the fixing of the price of land. So far as I am concerned, I do not want any misunderstanding on that question. I do not blame the Land Commission nor do I blame the lay commissioners or the appeal tribunal. They are only trying to abide by a completely unfair and unjust frame of words in the statute. It is the statute which is wrong with regard to the fixing of the price of acquired land and not the personnel of the bodies concerned. In view of the contingency that Senator Counihan's remark might be construed as against the personnel, rather than against the statute, which, I think, he meant, it is well that I should add that word of explanation.

I was rather surprised, at first, that Senator Counihan should move an amendment placing in the hands of an arbitrator, appointed by the Minister, power to determine the compensation to be paid in respect of lands to be acquired by the Minister, while Section 31 of the Bill, as it stands, provides that such compensation shall be assessed by the lay commissioners and, on appeal, by the appeal tribunal, both the lay commissioners and the appeal tribunal being independent of the Minister. Apparently, Senator Counihan was quite prepared to have the compensation assessed by an arbitrator appointed by the Minister instead of having it assessed by the lay commissioners or the appeal tribunal.

I was puzzled as to why he should put down the amendment but I think that he did so because, as he himself said, he had no confidence whatever in the lay commissioners or the appeal tribunal as the body to fix the price of land. Section 31 of this Bill provides that compensation is to be assessed by the lay commissioners, and, on appeal, by the appeal tribunal, but Section 15 places the lay commissioners and the appeal tribunal in the position of arbitrators under Section 2 of the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919, so that, whether the compensation be assessed by an arbitrator, so called, appointed by the Minister, or by the lay commissioners and, on appeal, by the appeal tribunal, the basis of compensation must be the same—that is to say, that laid down by the Acquisition of Land (Assessment of Compensation) Act, 1919. Therefore, I cannot see that any advantage would be gained by providing that the compensation be fixed by the ad hoc arbitrator mentioned in Senator Counihan's amendment. I suggest to the Senator that he should withdraw the amendment with a good grace, because, in this case, the compensation will have to be assessed on the same basis as an arbitrator would assess it if he were appointed.

I do not propose to put my opinion against that of Senator Ryan. My point is that, when the Land Commission is fixing the price, no question can be raised as to how they arrived at such a value. In the case of the lay commissioners, the Minister's representative states how he arrived at his valuation. The owners come in and show what the value of the land was to them. Senator Ryan says that this amendment would place the owners in a worse position than that in which they are. Even if that were so, the majority of the owners would be much better satisfied, because they could have their counsel present to question the Minister's representative as to how he arrived at his valuation. There is no such opportunity when a case comes before the lay commissioners or the appeal tribunal. That is why I think the Minister should accept this amendment. The Local Government Department and other Departments appoint an arbitrator when they are acquiring land and do not leave it to such a body as the Land Commission to fix the price.

If we could leave Senator Counihan to his spring lambs and return to our muttons, we should, probably, get further. His simple faith in the Minister is very touching. I wonder is that a personal compliment or is it a suggestion that politicians are far superior to independent commissioners in the matter of fixing prices. Senator Counihan referred to a number of cases in which the figure was 4½d. per acre. The whole of that 4½d. per acre was, practically, acquisition costs; the land belonged to nobody. That is how this amazingly low price for the land came about. I know, as Senator Sweetman said, that no farmer has any confidence in the Land Commission as regards the question of price. Those from whom the Land Commission acquire land always think the price is too low. Those who get land from the Land Commission are always under the impression that they are being fleeced by the annuity that is placed upon them. That is always the difficulty of the Referee. In Kerry, as Senator Counihan probably knows, it used to be very dangerous to referee a football match at one time. It seems to me that the lay commissioners and, on appeal, the appeal tribunal, being the normal instrument for fixing the compensation of such land, the Forestry Department, being a section of the Land Commission must, willy nilly, adopt the same instrument for their purpose. Where other State Departments acquire land and appoint an arbitrator, the foundation is altogether different because, with Local Government, with Defence, with Finance, it is practically entirely a question of acquiring land for building purposes, generally in an area where the cost of land for building purposes is much different and might be debatable. In this case, as I pointed out before, land acquired for forestry purposes must be over 90 per cent. acquired by agreement.

We cannot compel people to give land for forestry because we must have the people's goodwill, forestry being such a delicate plant and so easily injured. I do not know any arbitrator that might be appointed in cases like this, where there are intricacies of ownership, where there are rights of way, and matters of that sort, with which the Land Commissioners are completely familiar, and where it would be impossible to get a man with the same capacity or knowledge as they have. Even the amendment as it stands would give the Minister the right to appoint one of the lay commissioners whom Senator Counihan objects to. There really is nothing to the amendment. I could not by any means accept it. There is no injustice. Whatever argument may be made about unjust prices in regard to the acquisition of ordinary agricultural land and the fixing of price by the commissioners, there is no analogy between agricultural land and the case of land for forestry because, as I say, it is land that has no agricultural value that will be acquired by the Land Commission because general agreement has been reached by the owners of the land who are rather more anxious to get rid of it than to retain it.

The Minister will have the appointment of the arbitrators. It will not affect the price in any way. I think the amendment should be accepted by the Minister. He says "No" and that is the last word.

The Minister has divested himself under the Land Acts of various powers which are given to an independent tribunal and it would be very wrong if what has been done in the past, and which has proved to have such good results, should be changed now.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
SECTION 31.

With the permission of the House I shall not move amendment No. 11 and I shall raise the point I have in mind on Section 32.

Amendment No. 11 not moved.
Section 31 agreed to.
SECTION 32.
Question proposed: "That Section 32 stand part of the Bill."

I hope I shall have the assistance of some of my legal friends in clarifying this matter of the allocation of compensation. As a layman, it seems to me an entirely simple and straightforward measure: compensation is paid for the land, on which there are certain mortgages and charges and I should have thought that the allocation of that compensation was automatic, that the highest charges would get the first draw, and so on, in order of priority. But here there seem to be complicated and, to my mind, unintelligible methods by which a judge is brought in to deal with the allocation of the compensation. It would appear to me that if there is a dispute between the parties, the courts of law in the ordinary way would deal with it. I should like generally to be enlightened by the Minister on the whole matter.

I think Senator Sir John Keane is right. The first mortgagee, I think, would be entitled to the money.

As Senator Sir John Keane says, it is rather a complicated legal matter in many ways and the only provision in the Bill which has any reference, direct or indirect, to priority as between two or more mortgagees to which an interest in land compulsorily acquired under the Bill is subject, is sub-section (3) of Section 32. That sub-section provides for the allocation of compensation in respect of an interest in vested land which was, immediately before the vesting date, subject to two or more mortgages.

It is provided that if the compensation is sufficient to discharge all the mortgage debts in full the Minister shall allocate to each mortgagee the sum necessary to discharge his mortgage debt and shall allocate any surplus of the compensation remaining to the mortgagor. In case the compensation is not sufficient to discharge the mortgage debts in full and if all the mortgagees agree as to how the compensation is to be allocated, the Minister shall allocate it in accordance with their agreement. If they do not agree as to the allocation, the Minister will apply to the Circuit Court or to the High Court, and the court to which he applies will allocate the compensation. The only case in which any question of priority of one mortgagee over another might arise is that in which the Minister applies to the court to have the compensation allocated. The court will, of course, in any such case have due regard to proper priority.

I take it that the only difficulty arises in the case where the compensation is not sufficient to discharge the mortgage debts in full. In that case there may be, so to speak, the question of priorities. Apparently the Minister is not prepared to take it on himself to deal with that aspect of the matter, and so the Bill provides that the insufficient compensation is to be apportioned as between the mortgagees by the Circuit Court, if the compensation does not exceed £1,000, and by the High Court, in case the compensation exceeds £1,000. Sub-section (4) provides the basis on which such allocation shall be made by the court. I should like to see in this section some provision regulating the procedure on application to the court. The section provides that the Minister may apply in a summary manner to the Circuit Court or the High Court. I think it would be desirable to refer to or have conference with the Department of Justice or the rule-making authorities as to the manner in which a summary reference should be made, say, to the Circuit Court.

This is a new procedure, as far as I know, in which either the Circuit Court or the High Court is asked to apportion compensation money as between mortgagees. It may be necessary to implement the section by providing another sub-section, giving power to the rule-making authority to make the necessary rules of court. Personally, I do not see that there is anything wrong in that and I think that is all Senator Sir John Keane desires to know.

I am not in a position at the moment to deal with the provisions of this section in respect of the method of apportionment as between the two mortgagees. That is a matter which Senator Sir John Keane, as a practical banker, would be in a better position to consider than I am. At all events, I am satisfied that, whatever the Bill provides as a basis of apportionment between two mortgagees, either the Circuit Court or the High Court will carry it out. Though it may be a satisfactory method, it may also be a costly method. I think the section also provides for costs. You cannot ask people to go to court without paying their costs. If the mortgagees were to bear their own costs, the compensation might be diminished very considerably. I do not see here any provision for the payment of the costs of mortgagees who have to go to court to get the compensation apportioned. This land is being acquired by the Minister for the purpose of this Bill. The mortgagees and the owners are innocent parties as far as that matter is concerned and I am of opinion that no person, whether he is a mortgagee or an owner, should be asked to suffer any loss by reason of the expense of the machinery set up by the Bill, either for the awarding of the compensation or for the apportionment of the compensation to which, as mortgagee, he is entitled under the Bill.

I think that the only possible doubt or trouble arises under sub-section (4). It seems to me that if the compensation money is not sufficient to pay all the mortgagees, then the rules for distributing the money among the mortgagees in priority are perfectly well established and do not need the intervention of a court. The rule is that the first mortgagee is paid his claim in full, together with the reasonable costs of his demand, as far as the money goes; then it goes on to the next one, if there is enough money for him, and so on, in order of time. There are certain questions known as tacking and consolidation, which very rarely arise here, owing to the operation of our Registry Act, but they arise in England. If this section is intended to give the court the decision in the case of complicated questions, I can understand that; but what Senator Sir John Keane is anxious to have made clear to him is that there is no intention, by these sections, to give to the court a discretionary power to override the ordinary rules of priority.

That is the point.

If, for instance, there is £1,000 in the till and mortgage No. 1 is for £800, mortgage No. 2 for £300 and mortgage No. 3 for £100, the money would be divided up giving £800 to the first one and the balance of £200 to the second one, leaving the unfortunate third mortgagee—who has been sufficiently foolish to be a third mortgagee—with nothing. That would be the ordinary method. What Senator Keane is anxious to make sure of is that this section does not give power to invent new law or avoid old law, by means of uncontrolled discretion.

I wonder if it could be made clear in this way—"in case the compensation is not sufficient to discharge all of the mortgaged debts in full, the purchase money shall be distributed according to law." Then, if anybody is dissatisfied, he can apply to the courts.

I did assume naturally the idea that Senator Kingsmill Moore has mentioned—that there is a certain rule in relation to these mortgages, where priority is accorded. That is the regular procedure and I cannot see any reason why it should be ignored. If there is an established rule of law, it should be valid. We have a difficulty here, which we are trying to meet, where the mortgages we have to deal with in the land we acquire also cover other lands. That is why the procedure is as it is.

That might involve apportionment, exclusive charging, tacking and consolidation.

The question of costs might, in certain ways, be very detrimental to the claims of the mortgagees. I will have to examine it, as to whether we can allot certain costs, before making a definite statement about it.

One might eat up all the compensation in costs in a certain case. One of the difficulties is that, when the Land Commission is distributing a limited purchase money in a case where there are several superior interests in the nature of rents, they do not necessarily exhaust the purchase money in paying in full the first interest. They allot only a certain number of years' purchase to it and there is a kind of equitable distribution, partly owing to established practice and partly owing to the discretion of the judge. Senator Sir John Keane was anxious that we were introducing, in the distribution of purchase money among mortgagees, the principle of the distribution of the purchase money among superior interests in the nature of rents.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 33 and 34 agreed to.
Amendment No. 12 not moved.
Sections 35 to 40, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 41.
Question proposed: "That Section 41 stand part of the Bill."

I should like to get certain information from the Minister. A replanting condition is attached to land. I conceive that the owner of the land and the Department may have quite honest differences as to the method of replanting. After all, forestry is not an exact science. An owner might be a little bit adventurous and might wish to replant in a certain way of which the Minister's more orthodox advisers might not approve. I feel that unless the owner is altogether extravagant in what he wants to do— after all he is the owner of the land— and provided his purpose is honest, his views should be allowed to prevail. There is a natural tendency, I believe one might say, for the Minister's advisers to look askance at the more rigid ideas of the private owner, but I do not think it fair that the Minister should have the last say as to the form in which replanting is to take place. I know that at present there are very great differences of opinion as to the rival merits of soft woods and hard woods, and in that case, when it is merely a matter of planting soft woods or hard woods, I do think that the owner's views should prevail. Similarly, there may be differences as to the various forms of soft woods.

On Second Reading I raised the question of natural regeneration. It is a practice that is very largely followed on the Continent and there is no technical reason why it should not gradually grow here. If an owner says: "I want to replant by the methods of natural regeneration" would the Minister be in a position to say: "No, I shall not allow it"? Remember the owner still presumably owns his land and presumably is trying to do his best according to his own ideas. There is another question which I think I already mentioned.

Supposing an owner says: "I want, now that there is a fuel shortage, to have quite a reasonable acreage, say ten or 15 acres of firewood coppice". I think personally that firewood coppice may grow in popularity. Firewood is a better fuel than turf, unless the quality of the turf improves considerably, for domestic purposes and there should be no obstacle placed in the way of an owner who wants to replant with firewood coppice. I feel that if there is disagreement between the Minister and the owner as to the method of replanting there should be some outside body to whom the owner might appeal.

In regard to natural regeneration, we have not succeeded very well in developing that type of forestry here. We have to indulge in the more costly form of rearing seedlings and planting them out. Regeneration would be more satisfactory and much cheaper if we could do our planting in that fashion. From my own layman's point of view, I think the reason that we have not adopted regeneration is that we have not sufficient parent trees of the right type. A lot of the trees standing in the country up to recently were over-mature and the offspring of old trees are not very healthy. I would very much approve of any experiments that could be made in developing forestry by regeneration and I am hoping, when we have gone a certain distance with our afforestation ideas here, that we shall experiment, and I believe successfully experiment, with the idea of forestry by regeneration. In the Bill as we have it, for the first time replanting by regeneration is provided for. It has not been heretofore provided for.

I am not a good authority on coppice. We have not had experience here of coppicing. I do know that in other countries it has been a very successful method of producing firewood and wood for various types of industries. Unfortunately in some other countries, where it provided material for a number of rural crafts and for the development of very great skill of different types in rural areas, the coppice has very much gone out. Not only do I personally see no objection to providing an area of coppice, but I think it would be a very good thing if it were provided.

In the case of a man who has a keen interest in forestry, and who has ideas of his own that do not run quite parallel with what one might call the orthodox ideas of the Department, there is room for a certain amount of give and take on both sides, but we have to introduce rules in the Bill, not particularly to deal with the man of goodwill. The rules have to be fairly clear, rigid and definite because the people we have to deal with in relation to forestry in this country, who cut down trees, are those who are anxious to avoid any kind of replanting and who are anxious to avoid putting back into the ground any of the wealth they take out of it. Where a man has the idea of replanting without the compulsion of law, where he is interested in forestry, I do not think that the rules as applied generally should be enforced against him but that there should be discussion between him and the forestry experts out of which a reasonable agreement might arise. The whole purpose of the Bill is to promote forestry and if we can get people who are ready to co-operate voluntarily with us, there is no reason why we should not meet their idiosyncrasies, if one could so regard them.

I think that in view of the Minister's statement it would be only fair if I said that I know of two cases in which the estates concerned are generally interested in forestry and both estates are satisfied that the Minister's Department meets them fairly.

I think it does.

At the present time it would be very onerous to press owners to replant while the cost of fencing wire is so high. That should be taken into account. I would like to ask the Department, or is the Department prepared to say, if wire is obtainable at the lowest possible price? I speak subject to correction, but I understand at the present moment that, owing to the tariff restrictions, the price of wire is substantially higher here than in other countries.

Wire is much cheaper than it was.

It would be unfair altogether to insist on immediate replanting, I agree, because the price of wire is so high. The Department has made many efforts within the past few years to get wire at such a price that it would not be unfair to ask him to put up wire. But at the present time it is very scarce in the country.

And the Department have always extended the time in consequence.

Section 41 agreed to.
SECTION 42.

I move:—

To delete the section.

I have put this amendment down to get clarification. On the face of it, it seems to be most unjust that a person who owns land should be liable to a contribution of this kind. I cannot see what it is. Perhaps the Minister would develop it and say what he has in his mind by this contributing condition?

Wherever there is a clearance of land under licence there is a replanting condition attached. That imposes certain commitments, which may be called penalties, on the owner of the land. In some cases where land is cleared under licence, the owner may desire to utilise the land for purposes other than the growing of trees. He has taken a certain amount out of the land. He has reduced the area of forestry and we feel it only just that he should be placed somewhat in an analogous position to the man, who after clearing his land had to make certain contributions to State forestry development in replantation. Therefore, we propose to put on him compensatory conditions so as to put him on the same basis as the man who had to replant. I do not think it is unfair.

What would the contribution be like?

It appears to me that there are three different cases. The first is the man who owns land suitable for replanting, applies for and gets a felling licence subject to replanting. But the trees he is replanting are grown on his own land and are inuring for his own benefit and not for that of anybody else. Then you come to the case where there is land not suitable for replanting and I do not quite understand why if the land is not suitable for replanting because of some factor over which the owner of the land has no control that he ought to be asked to pay for something that is going to inure for the benefit of somebody else's land. That case was not met by the Minister at all.

Then, there is the third case that was met by the Minister, where a person applies for a licence to cut and the land might be suitable for replanting, but the owner, in the Minister's words, wishes to use it for something else, and in view of his wishes the Minister is prepared to allow him to use it for some other purpose provided he contributes to the cost elsewhere. In that case there is a specific decision taken by the owner of the land. The option is left to the owner and I would not have the slightest objection to giving the Minister a section that would cover that third case. It is the second case I object to.

I wonder if the Senator would make that clear again?

The first case is a simple one—the owner has trees on his land and applies for a felling permit. He gets the felling permit provided he will plant trees on his land and these trees inure for the owner's benefit. That is dealt with under Section 41, and then we come under Section 42 to two different types of case. The first is the case where the owner of the land has trees and applies for a permit to cut them. The Minister decides that the land in the possession of that owner is not suitable for replanting. The Minister, under this section, has taken power to exact tribute from that owner before he will let him cut.

It does not appear to me to be reasonable that the Minister will have the power to exact tribute from a person who owns trees where that person has no land which is suitable to replant. The third case is the case made by the Minister in reply to Senator Sir John Keane. That is a case where a man has trees on land which he wishes to cut and which land is suitable for replanting but the owner wishes to use the land for something other than replanting.

I entirely agree in that case if the owner wishes to use land for some purpose other than replanting when the land is suitable to plant, it is perfectly fair to exact a tribute from him because he has the option either of paying or of replanting, but I fail to see why the Minister should take power to exact tribute from a man who has no land suitable for replanting, and therefore in so doing the Minister is taking from him money to enable some other person to plant trees and to reap the profit from those trees when they are planted and grow to maturity.

Does this limited felling licence apply to persons who planted trees at their own expense without getting a grant and who now wish to fell them? Suppose I have undertaken a scheme of afforestation. I put my money into it. The trees have grown and matured. I am entitled to sell them as matured timber, it being a legitimate use of my land. I apply and get a licence. Why should there be any further conditions put upon it? If I do not wish to use the land for forestry the Minister has certain powers. If he is not going to use them, and I wish to use my land for other purposes, why should I not have the right to use my land if I want to? Why should I have to pay a fine to the Minister?

I wonder if it is accepted by the Seanad that there should be a replanting clause?

Certainly, as far as I am concerned anyway.

If we are to have forestry and preserve what we have and develop what we need, we must try to hold the land which is under forestry for forestry purposes. It is not at all unfair then that the man who is going to cut down the timber shall be asked to replant. The second man has an afforested area. He gets a permit to clear the land. We desire that he shall replant, and he suggests that he proposes to use the land for other purposes. It is his own land, but he has taken away, in the felling of the timber, a certain national asset, and if he is not going to replace that asset the fine that is put on him is to be utilised to try to provide elsewhere the asset which he has destroyed. I do not think it is unfair.

Provided the Minister leaves the option with the owner of the land.

Option in regard to what?

Provided the Minister only exacts the money if the owner has first got the opportunity of replanting and says that he is not going to do it.

Quite so.

If the Minister will put that in the section, I will be in agreement with him.

I have been considerably worried as to whether this portion of the Bill is not going to defeat its own ends. I have talked to people as to what the effect of it has been on their minds. There are a lot of people who would be willing, at their own expense, to indulge in a certain amount of afforestation, provided that, if they put their money into land, they were to have control of it themselves, and should be allowed a discretion as to thinning and felling, and that they should be allowed to take the profit of the matured trees just as the farmer who creates a national asset by putting wheat into his land is allowed to take the profit of the matured wheat without being forced by a Government Department to make a particular usage of the same land each year.

I believe that these are some of the provisions in the Bill that are going to defeat themselves and that are going to stop planting. I think it is a radically wrong principle that if a man has expended his own money on forestry that he should not have control over the growth of the trees, the selling of them and the use of the land. In the case of a man who has applied for a grant, a grant which is provided in connection with the planting of his land, the position is quite different. There the State has given something and is entitled to impose conditions. Nobody can complain about that, but if a man has done planting himself and has asked for no money—if he has done it as a hobby, from a commercial point of view or to beautify his place—I cannot see why the State should cash-in on his individual expenditure and care. I cannot see why, because a man has done a thing which will benefit himself, something which will add to the beauty of the landscape or that will produce climatic advantages, he should be forced, because of his foresight and expenditure, to toe the line.

Surely the right thing would be that if the State wants land it can acquire it under the earlier provisions of the Bill. It should not, however, penalise a man who has acted on his own initiative. In earlier parts of the Bill it will be found that people may be deterred from starting planting schemes because, when the time comes for thinning and for acting on their own discretion or on the advice of their experts, they cannot thin without going to the Minister for a licence. I have heard people say that if they have to go trotting to the Minister's Department every time they want a licence to cut out weakly trees in order to let the others grow, they will not undertake planting at all. I am rather afraid that the amount of regulations which are being put into the Bill will defeat the end in view. I hesitated to express a view on this matter until I had ascertained what the reactions of this Bill were on certain people I consulted.

I realise the difficulty of the Minister in altering the Bill now. I did think, however, that I should bring this point of view before the Minister because there is still left in Ireland a certain objection to being ordered about. As I have said, there are a great many people who, if left to themselves, would indulge in small or medium schemes of afforestation, but who will not do so if, as soon as they put down a tree, that tree is for all intents and purposes to be taken out of their control and subjected to a mass of forms and regulations, and if they are to be put under the control of people here in Dublin.

I quite agree with the general views expressed by Senator Kingsmill Moore, but I do not think the Minister much minds that. I think he would be quite glad if all private forestry came to an end and that the whole matter was vested in the State. I do not say that he has got any sinister purpose in these regulations. I do agree with Senator Kingsmill Moore that every discouragement is being given to people not to embark on the adventure of private afforestation.

I do not see how this section is going to work. Perhaps that is due to the fact that I am rather ignorant of how the present system works. If I want to fell an area of land, and that there is a certain portion of the area which I do not want to replant because I do not think it is worth while planting it—and moreover if I fell it—I am liable to have a contribution attached. I take it the idea is that I would apply for a felling licence only in respect of the area that I think is worth felling— the area that I wish to replant. The effect of that will be that the portion that is not worth planting owing to the fact that trees have never thrived there, or that the land is not good, will simply remain useful perhaps for game purposes, but useless for afforestation. Trees will not thrive where you have a bad sub-soil or where the land has not been drained. In such circumstances, what is going to happen? If the Minister is satisfied with a situation like that, well and good. I do not think it is desirable, because it might be possible, by draining the land, to use it for other purposes.

As regards the contribution, it is surely unjust that the Minister should be the sole judge of what it should be, and that there should be no appeal. If the principle of a contribution is to be accepted there should be some machinery by which the Minister will not be the sole judge—to give whatever sum he likes, and that the owner is to have no means of appeal. I think the Minister should reconsider this section between this and the Report Stage.

I am afraid Senator Kingsmill Moore has got the House back to a Second Reading debate. He has attacked the principle of compelling people who cut down trees to replant but that principle has been accepted over a long period. It would be, I think, entirely impracticable to make that principle apply only to people who have got sums for planting trees. I think it would be impracticable also to confine it to people who had planted trees at their own expense. Surely, if my father had trees they are as much mine as if I had planted them. By the same token, my father did not leave me trees. Perhaps that is why my views are what they are. In any event, I do not think you could make a distinction between the trees which a man plants himself and the trees his father planted, or indeed his predecessor in title planted.

I think Senator Kingsmill Moore would acknowledge himself that the analogy between wheat and trees, in fact, does not exist. A tree is quite a different thing from a wheat crop. It takes a long time to mature. Wheat, of its nature, must be cut down, or else it rots, whereas if you cut down trees you are depriving people of something that is an asset. The arrangement by which trees must be planted is a sound one.

On the other question raised by Senator Sir John Keane's amendment, if the section has the meaning which the Minister says then the Minister is in complete agreement with Senator Sweetman, and if that were made clear then there is nothing at all between the Minister and Senator Sweetman or, indeed, I think, between the Minister and Senator Sir John Keane. That is to say, if a man has trees on his land, wants to cut the trees and, apart from the question whether the land is suitable for replanting or not, wants to use it for something else and agrees with the Minister, he should, presumably, make an agreed contribution. It might be more satisfactory if, instead of the Minister being sole judge, somebody else could be made judge but the matter is one that may occur very often and about which there may be not any dispute. If we are to have a Forestry Department at all, we must give it certain powers. Nobody is more in favour of individual liberty than I am but one of the ways of restricting individual liberty is to advocate it too strongly.

I think that Senator Kingsmill Moore will agree with that. The further you go in the advocacy of individual liberty, the more you are preparing yourself for grave restrictions of that liberty. Better to strike a middle course. If the Department is reasonable in its treatment of owners, then I think that the replanting condition must remain. The question of the contribution is different. The Minister appeared to think that the section applied only to cases where the owner, without any regard to the suitability of his land for replanting, wanted to use it for something else, and would agree with the Department as to the contribution. If the Minister were right in that, no difficulty would arise.

I did realise that I was making a Second Reading speech. I did not raise the matter on the Second Reading because the principle had, more or less, been accepted. I tried to show, in this instance, that, while the principle itself was open to certain objections, these objections applied with extra force to a section such as this. It is too late, I grant, to criticise the principle, though I realise that it has gone too far.

I regret that my business does not bring me to the Seanad oftener. I continue to make discoveries every time I come along. How Senator Hayes could have had the heart, after so many years in the Chair in the Dáil, to say that he was in favour of individual liberty, I do not understand.

I am in favour of ordered liberty.

I am completely in favour of the individuality of which Senator Kingsmill Moore so highly approved. But individuality is very often expressed in this country in a sense of grievance, when no grievance exists. Senator Sir John Keane's latest speech represented that particular type of individuality. There is a regulation in France that no land which has ever grown trees can be utilised for any other purpose. I think that that is very wrong, that it is an indefensible regulation and that we should not support the idea here. But we are talking about forestry and Senator Kingsmill Moore is talking about plantations for scenic purposes—woodlands and so forth.

I do not visualise any individual going into large-scale forestry in this country, though I sincerely hope people will do so. Senator Sir John Keane seems to think that we wish to prevent, by regulation, a person from so doing. We really want to be helpful and all our regulations are intended to be helpful. Senator Kingsmill Moore says that a person will not plant trees because he must go to the Minister for authority to fell them. Surely, we are not so dictatorial or so unwise as to prevent a man from carrying out the usual thinnings and clearances that have to be undertaken under proper methods of sylviculture. We have taken no powers to prevent any man from felling matured trees on his land. We cannot include men who cut shelter-belts on small acreages of land or men who cut down timber planted for scenic purposes with those who have been felling in a large way in connection with forestry. It is quite possible that certain land which has grown poor timber is unfitted to grow real timber and there is no reason why we should continue to utilise that land for forestry purposes. The Forestry Department would be the last people in the world to plant timber on land unsuitable for producing it commercially. Most people seem to be under the impression — particularly enthusiasts — that the Forestry Department should undertake, anywhere in the country, the growing of trees, irrespective of whether they become, at any stage of their growth, of commercial value. Our concern is the growing of commercial timber, not scenic timber and not timber on land that will not produce commercial timber. We are often told that we are not in earnest about forestry because we will not accept certain types of land and plant it, knowing that it will produce only stunted, gnarled and useless stuff, suitable, at best, for firewood. The Department has designed a method of helping those interested to undertake forestry by giving a grant of £10 an acre for planting. I can see no man—even if he were a very prominent banker—undertaking forestry without making application for that £10 grant.

In offering that grant we are trying to be helpful, and the individuality that expresses itself in a sense of grievance is not a helpful type of individuality to have introduced here. Possibly, our history has as much effect on one side of the fence as it has had on the other. It is quite reasonable to ask a man who has clear-felled an area of forestry to replant under the conditions that we desire, and we provide him with £10 an acre.

Whether the land is suitable or not?

Oh, no. I have been very clear on it. It is quite right, where a man has clear-felled a forest area and wishes to utilise the land for other purposes that, having deprived the nation of a certain national asset, he should make a contribution to try to rebuild that national asset. In Section 56 of the Bill there is an appeal to a referee. The Minister does not take it upon himself finally to assess compensation and the only case, so far, where we have insisted on, or tried to insist on, a compensation clause, is in the case of a man who wishes to clear a large area of forestry, who expresses his intention of avoiding any replanting conditions, and who says he never wishes to see the land again. We must try to make him be a little bit helpful. I think the Senators should accept the section without amendment. I think it is quite reasonable.

Is the Minister prepared to allow this question of the contribution to go to the Referee under Section 56?

Quite so.

Is it covered by the Bill at present?

Section 56.

Sub-section (6), paragraph (c)—does that do it?

It does it the wrong way.

I do not wish to take up the time of the House now. I am not satisfied but I am prepared to press no further if I have that assurance.

I will be quite clear on it on Report Stage.

I wish to make one point on the economics of the Minister's remarks. He says that you cut down trees and, if you do not replant, you deprive the nation of an asset. Surely if you put that land to agricultural purposes, which would be far more productive than any forestry would be, you would not be destroying a national asset but creating a more valuable asset. It may be an academic point but I cannot accept the Minister's contention that you destroy an asset by turning a forest area into agricultural land.

I am afraid it is an academic point.

Perhaps the Minister could answer one question which would save me considerable thought. Does the Minister accept the point of view that an owner should only be asked to contribute money if he wishes to avoid the replanting condition?

Will the Minister satisfy himself between now and Report Stage that the section is phrased to cover that, because I am not absolutely clear that it is?

Very good.

Question—"That the section stand part of the Bill"—put and agreed to.
Section 43 agreed to.
SECTION 44.
Question proposed, "That Section 44 stand part of the Bill."

As I understand the situation in regard to this section, the owner of land serves his application for a felling notice and the Minister must serve his refusal to that notice within 21 days. If nothing happens within 21 days the owner can cut away.

If the Department does not notify the owner within 21 days.

If the Department does not notify the owner within 21 days, he can cut away. If the Department does notify the owner within 21 days, the Department must have a reason for so doing.

Under sub-section (2) of this section the Minister cannot make a refusal based on preserving an amenity without consulting the district planning authority. How can he, therefore, consult the district planning authority and get their decision within 21 days? It appears to me that the situation might quite easily be that an owner would make application, the trees being mature, but the Minister may think that they had scenic value. Shall we take, for example, the trees at Torc Mountain in Killarney. The Minister may take the view that that timber was commercially mature, was old, dying, but that it was desirable, from the scenic point of view, to hold it until such time as other timber had come along. The Minister must do something within 21 days but the Minister cannot refuse the permit from the scenic point of view except with the consent of the district planning authority. I do not see how he could get that consent within 21 days and, therefore, I think his refusal might be set aside, and I am particularly anxious from the tourist angle that the refusal should not be set aside. It is a technical point and if the Minister would look into it between now and Report Stage I would be quite happy.

Of course, the point is, a man makes application for a permit to fell certain trees in a particular area; the Forestry Department examines the map, sees exactly where the trees are. If they believe as a result of their examination of a small-scale map that there is necessity to inquire into the matter, they can get a large-scale map and have a look at it. That is what I would do. They would then notify the gentleman who applied for the permit that he was not to cut the timber without permission. Then they would have it examined. They would have time enough to go to the planning authority then. The question of cutting mature timber in those places has been raised. We really cannot prevent the cutting of mature timber, and while it would be very right from the tourist point of view, the scenic point of view, to preserve such timber, it can only be preserved for a limited period, and there are certain provisions in the Bill which impose on the planning authority certain commitments with regard to it.

If the work in Killarney had not been carried out, the trees would have fallen in a very short time and the condition would be far worse than it will be now, when there is a settled scheme of felling instituted and a replanting proposition to preserve the scenic amenities there. It should be quite easy, I think, to arrange with the planning authorities. As a matter of fact, I have had some experience in that during the past year where trees have been preserved in one particular area. I do not see any difficulty in it. We do not have to get in touch with the planning authority immediately. An examination of the map gives us the information as to whether it is necessary to do so or not, and if we believe from an examination of the map that the amenities should be preserved, we can prevent the felling of the trees until we make a thorough examination into the matter.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 45 to 59, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 60.

On behalf of Senator O Buachalla, I move amendment No. 13:—

In sub-section (2), page 51, to delete lines 51 to 55, inclusive.

Perhaps the Minister would accept the amendment and save me all the trouble of saying anything more about it. Where the Minister orders hares to be destroyed, if they are not destroyed, he can send his men in to destroy them. Then, in lines 51 to 60, he can charge the cost to the owner of the land. Section 58 provides for rabbits and other vermin and the same clause in that section was deleted in the Dáil, but evidently, by mistake, it was not deleted in Section 60.

I will accept that amendment.

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 60, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

I have been approached by a well-known person in the world of sport, who says that, if these two sections are passed, there will be no more coursing in Ireland. He suggests the following amendment —of course, I am not proposing it now, but I am asking the Minister to consider it—"If the owner or occupier can prove to the satisfaction of the Minister that the land is being used as a hare preserve, for the purpose of supplying the recognised hare coursing interests, he may grant a certificate of exemption, even though the land is infested." That may seem reasonable, from the point of view of coursing as an industry, and certainly hares that contribute to the sport should be preserved. I would ask the Minister to consider that aspect of the whole question.

I have no desire to destroy an industry or a sport. It would look more like a sport to me always if the hare could turn back and bite somebody, but that does not happen. However, hares have a habit of keeping out of a place where they are unwelcome. They are migratory. If they are permitted in forests or in the vicinity of young forests, one has to choose between hares and forestry. My choice would be forestry, where we have it at present and let the hares find somewhere else. I have not the least belief that this section will destroy coursing, any more than the destruction of Pekinese dogs in Dublin will destroy greyhounds.

I wish the Minister would think over this, as perhaps I have taken him rather by surprise. This matter was not raised in the Dáil and it seems rather important. The Minister may say he has never been approached by the coursing interests and that they are not concerned. There is nothing to prevent the Minister thinking it over. He may ask some of his sporting friends if they are satisfied about this. It looks to me as if it might have an effect on the provision of hares for coursing.

The Senator does not surprise me at all. What surprises me is that no one ever referred to the matter before. I expected much more of a row about it. I really do not anticipate the difficulty that the Senator or his adviser anticipates. Naturally, the people in a sporting district are concerned with that and not with anything else. I am concerned with forestry, particularly in this Bill, but I would not like to do any damage to any other industry. However, as I say, there is a place for forestry in this country and that is not the place for hares. There is certainly a lot of other land where there will be hares. As a matter of fact, the hare which is not a forest or mountain hare is a far better hare for coursing purposes.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 61 to 65, inclusive, agreed to.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Bill reported, with amendment.
Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 22nd May.
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