Erne Drainage and Development Bill, 1950—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. Cosgrave)

The main purpose of the Bill is to secure that the necessary water storage will be provided so that the Electricity Supply Board can proceed with the full development of the Erne hydro-electric scheme. It is proposed to authorise the board to make an agreement with the Ministry of Finance, Northern Ireland, in the terms of the draft scheduled to the Bill and to make any supplemental agreement or agreements that may be required.

Senators will be aware that the Electricity Supply Board have been proceeding for some time past with the partial development works on the Erne. The Erne hydro-electric scheme was approved in 1945 by an Order of the Minister for Industry and Commerce under the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act of 1945. The scheme approved by this Order covered the first stage of development. It entailed the construction in County Donegal of two reservoirs and two power stations and, while in itself the scheme was complete for the first stage of development, allowance was made for the extension which will be practicale under the agreement in the schedule.

These works in County Donegal which have been initiated and are in progress are estimated to cost a total of £4,346,000, of which £3,100,000 will be required for the civil construction works (including compensation) and £1,246,000 will be required for mechanical and electrical plant. As already stated, there are two power stations under construction: one known as the Cliff Station and the other known as the Cathaleen's Falls Station. The first stage of development at the Cliff Station will provide a 10,000 kw. generating set and it is expected that power will be available from this set in three or four months. At Cathaleen's Falls the first stage will give two sets each of 22,000 kw. capacity and power is expected to be available from the first of these sets by the mid-summer of 1951 and from the second set by the end of 1951. In a year of average rainfall these three sets, at the completion of the stage of partial development, will provide an annual output of electricity amounting to about 150 million units.

The partial scheme to which reference has been made is known as a "run of the river" development, that is to say, it utilises the uncontrolled flow of the river as it arrives, naturally, from Upper and Lower Loughs Erne. With an uncontrolled flow there is excessive wastage of water during times of flood and, if the maximum development is be obtained, the flood waters must be controlled and conserved for use in generating power during periods of low flow. Storage must be provided and for this purpose certain works will be undertaken in County Fermanagh and on the Border. These works are described in the draft agreement; they include the removal of existing sluices on the River Erne at Belleek so that the levels of the loughs may be controlled from sluices incorporated in the board's dam at Cliff Station; the deepening of the River Erne from Belleek up to its outlet from Lower Lough Erne, i.e., over a distance of about four miles; the construction of sluices across the River Erne, just down-stream from Enniskillen, to prevent the level of Upper Lough Erne falling below a water level of 150 ft. O.D.; the construction of a new road bridge over the River Erne at Belleek, and removal of the existing bridge, as the river will have to be widened at this site. All these works are in County Fermanagh except those connected with the removal of the sluices and the road bridge at Belleek, which are partly in County Fermanagh and partly in County Donegal.

To achieve the advantages of the full development scheme, co-operation between the Electricity Supply Board and the Ministry of Finance of Northern Ireland will be necessary in the execution of the works and in the control of the water levels of the loughs. Negotiations for the purpose of reaching agreement on the many issues, technical and otherwise, which arose were conducted between the interested parties and I am glad to say that they were conducted in a most co-operative spirit and a result has been achieved, of which the agreement in the schedule is the outcome. I must pay tribute to all those concerned on both side who contributed towards this highly satisfactory conclusion and I am sure that the House will wish to join in that tribute. A complementary measure has been introduced in the Northern Parliament so that legislative authority to execute the agreement will be obtained on both sides.

The works which will be carried out under the agreement by the Northern Ministry of Finance will ensure the efficient working of the three generating sets being constructed in the first stage of development. Without these works, the production of power would be somewhat intermittent and continuity of output could only be obtained by the erection of an auxiliary steam plant. The Fermanagh works will not only ensure continuity of supply but will increase by one-third the number of units which can be generated in the three sets now being constructed and will, in addition, enable a second generating set of 10,000 k.w. capacity to be installed at the Cliff station. The total capacity of the Erne station at the completion of the full development will be 230 million units. The total cost to the Electricity Supply Board of the full development is estimated at £6,346,000 or £2,000,000 more than the figure I have already given as the cost of partial development. The extra sum of £2,000,000 includes provision for a payment of £750,000 which it is estimated will have to be made by the Electricity Supply Board to the Northern Ministry of Finance in respect of the works to be executed under the agreement.

The additional output of electricity amounting to 230 million units a year from the Erne scheme will make a substantial contribution to the ever-growing demand which it is anticipated will continue for some years. The number of units of electricity sold by the board in 1938 was 244 millions, in 1941 was 345 millions, in 1946 was 379 millions, and in 1948, 492 millions. Last year it had gone up to 569 millions. The Electricity Supply Board have estimated that by the year 1955 the demand for supply will be of the order of 1,400 million units a year. By that time it is anticipated that the generating capacity of the stations now in production and the new stations, steam and hydro, under construction or in contemplation, will be of the order of 1,354 million units.

From our point of view the measure before the House has no significant drainage interest. Under the Bill the drainage board is to be dissolved. The Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act, 1863, was the authority for the constitution of the Lough and River Erne drainage district and until the summer of 1940 the district was managed by a drainage board elected annually by the owners of the improved lands as provided in the Act. An important function of the board was to operate the sluice gates at Belleek in a manner that would maintain the upper and lower lakes at the levels established under the final award made by the Commissioners of Public Works in 1891. The drainage board resigned in June, 1940, and has not functioned since then, but in March, 1941, an arrangement was arrived at between the Commissioners of Public Works and the Northern Ministry of Finance under which the sluices are being operated under the joint control of their respective engineers. The cost is shared by the commissioners and the Ministry in proportion to the annual value of the benefit derived from the original scheme by the lands on each side of the Border. Our share of the cost is one-eighth and provision for the sum required, which in the current year is £73, is made in the Public Works and Buildings Vote. The existing arrangement for the joint control of the Belleek sluices will be continued under Section 8 of the Bill until the present sluices are removed and the new system of control comes into operation under the terms of the draft agreement. The works which will be carried out to provide the extra water storage under the Erne hydro-electric scheme, including the improvement of the outfall channel from the lower lake between Roscor and Belleek will, it is expected, relieve from ordinary summer and harvest flooding the area served by the original drainage and navigation scheme.

The draft agreement in the Schedule to the Bill is largely of a technical character and deals with the works which I have already described, the method of controlling the water levels, financial matters arising from the construction of the works, arbitration, and some minor matters. It is proposed that the Ministry of Finance. Belfast, shall act as agent for the Electricity Supply Board in carrying out the works in County Fermanagh and shall seek the necessary legislative authority from the Northern Parliament for interference with property resulting from the works and for the periodic variation of the levels of the loughs and other necessary consequential purposes.

Mr. Quirke

All who read the debate on this matter in the other House can anticipate that the debate in this House will be what we all welcome here, a non-controversial debate. In the other House, the various Parties to this agreement were congratulated and I hope the same thing will happen here. I think this is a very creditable performance that in a matter of this kind agreement can be got on both sides of the Border and it just goes to show that if we could finally convince the people on the other side of the Border—convince, in other words, the minority—that their best interests would be served by co-operation with the majority on this side of the Border, I believe we could get over the one outstanding obstacle to the complete independence of the country, that is, the Border.

While congratulating the people on both sides in arriving at this understanding, I do not think anybody will accuse me of being over generous when I say that congratulations should also be included for this agreement for the man who initiated this business as far back as 1945, that is, the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. Seán Lemass.

I do not think it is any harm to give credit where credit is due and there is another group of people who I think ought to be congratulated—it is very seldom that they get any pats on the back—the staff and general personnel of the Electricity Supply Board. I think it is only right that these people from the top down to the ordinary workers should be congratulated and given credit because, human nature being what it is, most of us like to get a little credit when we feel we are entitled to it—some of us try to get credit for things that we had nothing to do with at all.

I believe that the scheme will do a lot of good to both sides of the Border and to the country as a whole. When the scheme is in effective operation in the years ahead people on both sides looking back will say "Was it not a pity that we did not co-operate with our fellow countrymen at that time and go the whole way." What could be done in a small matter such as is dealt with in the Bill could also be done in bigger matters if the people concerned could only be big enough and realise it was for the common good.

I believe that the actual scheme will serve a very useful purpose. There is a growing demand for electricity all over the country. Particularly in the rural areas people are clamouring for electric current and in the provincial towns also it will supply a long felt need. Anything which works towards the development of our natural resources is a good project. The alternative to the development of our natural electricity supply is to be to a great extent dependent on outside supplies for power. In the past even in some of our big power stations we continued to use imported materials, imported coal, imported crude oil, imported petrol and things of that kind. It is quite evident to anybody looking at the situation as it exists that in case of a serious emergency the only sensible policy for any country placed as ours is is to depend on its own resources. I believe that this is a very valuable contribution towards the development of our resources. If this policy continues as it has done in the past we will find ourselves in years to come—and not too many years ahead —when we will be as independent as it is possible to make us of outside supplies in case of emergency.

Some people are inclined to underestimate the importance of a scheme such as this; they believe that it is merely for the benefit of big cities. That, as the Parliamentary Secretary has pointed out, is not quite so. Just as the Poulaphouca scheme has been an advantage, so also will this and any future scheme be an addition to the general pool of electric current in the country. I believe that it will go a long way towards solving many of our problems not the least of which is the flight from our land. Travelling through the country as I have done consistently over a number of years I am quite convinced that the flight from the land about which we hear so much can and will be considerably checked by the advance of electricity into the rural areas. I remember a good many of years ago when speaking on this subject in this House I said that electric light in the farmer's yard would make all the difference in the world. I think a good few people at that time thought I was talking nonsense but I am more convinced than ever that electricity on the farm is of the utmost importance not alone from the economic point of view such as the development of machinery but that it will go a long way towards getting people more settled on the farms. It will not alone benefit the men who will be working machinery outside for grinding and sawing and so on but the women in their own houses will have the things which make life a little easier for the people in the cities.

I think that a Bill of this kind should have the support of all sections in the House and we on this side will do everything we can to speed it through. We will let the Parliamentary Secretary have as many stages as he wants.

Mr. M. Hayes

I agree with my friend Senator Quirke that this Bill is a matter of very great importance and represents a great step forward. It is, as he has pointed out, an example of unity of view and continuity of purpose between different Governments here. The first stages of the Erne drainage and development scheme and co-operation between our Electricity Supply Board and the northern Ministry were undertaken by the last Government under the last Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. Seán Lemass. It has shown as I said that there is considerable unity of view and continuity of purpose between Governments here and that that unity can be extended for economic reasons not only between Governments in this State but between Governments on this and the other side of the Border.

When I recall that and give due credit I am bound to recall also that when the present Minister for Finance made one of the most remarkable speeches ever made in the Dáil introducing the first Electricity Bill some 25 years ago that particular measure was then opposed very vigorously by a great variety of people. Some of the opposition was well intentioned; some was merely stupid; a great deal arose from political malice, but the events that have taken place since that first introduction 25 years ago have proved that the authors of the Shannon scheme were right. Not alone were they right from the point of view of the Twenty-Six Counties but they builded better than they knew, and made a sure foundation and were right from the point of view of the whole 32 counties. In dealing with this scheme and with this particular Bill and its vital and extreme importance the name of the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Mr. McGilligan, should be mentioned. By a happy coincidence it has been introduced here and in the other House by a Parliamentary Secretary whose father, Mr. W.T. Cosgrave, was the then Head of the Government and Mr. McGilligan's leader.

The Shannon scheme had the effect also that apart from its actual work it made this State and the whole of Ireland electricity-minded, which is a very important aspect of that type of work. It aimed at producing 130 million units annually and the Parliamentary Secretary has told us that that will be increased nearly ten-fold by 1955 so what Senator Quirke said was absolutely true: when you give people electricity and give them a taste for it the taste grows and consumption increases.

Remembering the speeches on the Shannon scheme, I read some of the leading articles in Belfast on this matter and I must say that I found them most interesting. The Northern Whig on the 17th May said that this particular measure was an example of eminent commonsense by both Governments. I think one could add, an example of eminent commonsense by both Parliaments. It proves also—even if it was as one newspaper in Belfast put it, merely from enlightened self-interest—that Irishmen can meet together, face problems and deal with complicated details without a hitch.

As we are on that, I would like to add my views to what the Parliamentary Secretary and Senator Quirke have said by way of compliment to the staffs of the Electricity Supply Board, who conducted those very delicate negotiations, very delicate and very detailed negotiations over the last five years. From what one can hear, and from what one sees in the Bill, and sees in the debates in the Parliament in Belfast, the officials on the other side of the Border representing the Northern Government were, apparently equally co-operative. It should be said, also, as has been said in Belfast, that this measure is only a beginning. A complete inter-connection of the net-work of the Electricity Supply Board, and the net-work in Northern Ireland would mean the solution of a great many rural electrification problems, on both sides of the Border. There can be no economic supply for Donegal, I think, except through Derry and, I understand, that the supply would be given to Derry from a station on this side of the Border. There has been a statement, that further co-operation and further negotiations will be necessary. Our electricity relies, in the main, upon native sources, either water, in the main, or else peat. We shall have plenty of electricity in the winter when, perhaps, coal is scarce in the North. On the other hand, in the summer, when we may be short, we can get a supply from the North from their ordinary fuel stations. The Minister for Finance, Major Sinclair, in Northern Ireland, said that the Bill held out promise of a substantial measure of solution of a problem that was more than a century old, namely, the problem of the drainage of the River Erne. He indicated that Northern Ireland is spending £340,000, which would be thrown away, and useless, and would bear no fruit at all, except for the existence of our hydro-electric undertaking to co-operate with that drainage scheme.

The Northern Whig spoke of the co-operative spirit in which this matter had been carried out, and said that that co-operative spirit was laudable, and can be pursued without yielding any principles on either side about Irish unity. One will be inclined to agree. There is no use in reading into this Bill, despite the co-operation that has preceded it, and which we hope will continue, something which, in fact, is not there. Wishful thinking is attractive, but it is a rather unprofitable business. It is, at the same time, true that knowledge gained by individuals through personal contacts is always good, and will always act as a solvent to prejudice, misunderstanding, and hatred. We ourselves know that that is so, in political matters and in our own political operations. Where enlightened self-interest comes in, personal contacts of that kind are the surest method of breaking down barriers of feeling and misunderstanding. Such personal contacts, having such negotiations upon matters on which we are in agreement, where our interests coincide, seem to me to be more profitable than long range oratorical artillery and impassioned speeches which often seem to be directed at the wrong target. I would like to say, in conclusion, that the Parliamentary Secretary has had the privilege of bringing in a very important measure, one which shows a beginning. May I quote—it may seem strange, but as people have been creating precedents, perhaps, we ought to keep on creating them—I do not know if the Belfast Telegraph has been quoted with approbation, ever, in this House or the other House since 1922. In a leading article of May 17th it stated:—

"As an example of co-operation it is admirable, and should have fruitful consequences."

The leading article goes on to praise the scheme, and to say:—

"Nothing that has been said should distract our attention from the scheme itself and the opportunities it affords to both sides for continued co-operation."

I think, Sir, we should remember, that continued co-operation will take place, and that it will take place on a hardheaded business basis of enlightened self-interest, on the basis that we seek for the things we agree upon, rather than the things we do not agree upon. If it does, we will be doing excellent work for all Ireland.

Dr. O'Connell

I should like to join with the previous speakers in congratulating all those who have been responsible for the agreement which is before us in this Bill. I think it is one of the most hopeful things that has happened in quite a long time, and I believe, personally, that it has done more towards bringing about an eventual agreement between North and South than, as Senator Hayes has pointed out, all those speeches and newspaper articles that we see and hear from time to time. Indeed, I believe, that as far as a solution of our national problem is concerned the speech-makers, at least some of them, in any case, and those who write the leading articles in the political newspapers are doing more harm than good. I hope to see this spirit of co-operation extended into other fields. This country is too small really to work economically in two water-tight compartments, two divisions—North and South. There are many fields in which this co-operation can be made effective; for instance, transport, and by the way, I think it was significant that only a few days ago, the Manager of the Great Northern Railway was also appointed Manager of Córas Iompair Éireann. That is bound, in itself, to make for co-operation in our transport system.

Mr. Baxter

Without any regard for religious discrimination, which is equally important.

Dr. O'Connell

That, as Senator Baxter says, is of great importance also. Then, there is the field of sport, and many other activities, in which this co-operation can be made effective. As far as the Bill before us is concerned, there is very little to be said, except to commend it to the House. I agree, with Senator Quirke and Senator Hayes, that we should really be proud that this agreement has been made and we should congratulate all those who are concerned in bringing the agreement about. There is nothing much to be said, except to give the measure before the House our blessing.

Mr. Ireland

I regard this as a red letter day when, speaking as an inhabitant of the Six Counties, I find the Irish Seanad dealing with the matter that directly affects all Ireland. I have read the Bill with interest. It makes a nice point that it is an agreement with a Minister with an address in County Down, and a board with an address in Lower Fitzwilliam Street, but I think the people of Ireland will insist in regarding this as an agreement between two Governments, and I think they will be right. Unfortunately, I fear there are many Deputies and Senators who, while they fiercely insist that Ireland consists of 32 counties, sometimes lose sight of that fact in the intricacies of legislation. I was pointing out recently in this House, that in the matter of engineering, one of the great centres of the world is situated in the Six Counties.

Perhaps the Cathaoirleach will permit me to say a word or two on the framework surrounding the Bill before I come to the Bill itself. I am always being asked down here, or I used to be: "When are you coming in with us?" and I always insisted on replying: "There is no such thing as our being swallowed up by you people. What will happen will be a coming together of two things to produce something entirely different from what we have now." I think we begin to see the truth of that in dealing with this Bill, because this, believe me, is the only way in which any progress can be made—by agreement between the two sides.

I am more interested in this general principle underlying the Bill than I am in the intricacies of the Bill. It is not a very intricate thing—there may be one or two points that I should like to have clarified later on—but at this stage we ought to underline the principle which underlies it. Senator O'Connell has just mentioned something which I intended to mention— the appointment of one general manager for the railway systems of both ends of the country. Another one I can think of which runs parallel with the principle in the Bill is the establishment of a planetarium in Armagh, with contributions from both Governments. That, I think, was possibly the first instance of this principle, and, if we cannot agree about the study of the stars, it would be a curious thing. If it did not tax the patience of the Cathaoirleach, I could go on to mention another sphere where co-operation, I hope, will come. We are cooperating in this matter for the good of us all and the good of Ireland, but there is another point at which I think we shall have to co-operate, not only for the good of Ireland but for the good of Western Europe, that is, the defence of this country. However, that is for another occasion.

At the moment, we are dealing with electricity and drainage, with something which will simultaneously drain land in the Six Counties and distribute electric light and power in parts of the Twenty-Six Counties where such light and power are badly needed. I say that all the more feelingly because I am living in a little house in Donegal, and, if there were electricity there, I would buy it to-morrow, so that I feel it personally. If anything simultaneously drains land in the Six Counties and distributes power and light in the Twenty-Six Counties, I think we can hail it without any equivocation. That is really all I have to say. I merely want to underline the principle by means of which we can go forward towards the unity of the country. I welcome the Bill both for its own sake and as a foreshadowing of the shape of things to come.

Mrs. Concannon

It will not be considered unsuitable that a voice like mine which still retains the Doric accents of its native County Derry should be heard in the discussion of a Bill of this kind and in congratulation of the Parliamentary Secretary for having introduced it. Those of us whose roots are deep in the Six Counties—my own are deep there through generations—cannot but welcome anything that obliterates, even to a certain extent, the Border. We who were born and have our roots in the Six Counties rejoice that Partition to some extent has been abolished by this Bill and I was very glad that Senator Hayes reminded us that it was a Six County man, the present Minister for Finance, who made us all electricity-minded. We owe a great debt to that Minister for having had the courage and foresight to harness the Shannon. There was, I am sorry to say, a good deal of opposition at the time, but that has been nearly forgotten now and those who were opposed to it are now most enthusiastic about it.

My particular interest in the Bill and in the electrification of Ireland concerns itself with the women. Everybody will admit that there is no greater friend to women in their arduous labours than electricity. For a long time, the attitude adopted towards the work of women was one of being prepared to let her plod away through all sorts of impossible conditions, but the women are rebelling against that and are not going to stand it any longer. Unfortunately, the result is a terrific emigration of young marriageable women. We must consider the provision of electrified homes in our land division activities, and, if we give the women a proper chance of being trained to run these homes and help their husbands in their farming work, we will go a long way to make this country what God meant it to be. We have the most fertile land on earth, and, in spite of what people may say, we have the best climate on earth. Our main industry is agriculture and we will get no distance with our agriculture, unless we harness women's energies to help the men. For that reason, I welcome the Young Farmers' clubs and the part which they assign to women in them.

When an old farmer in America was asked about this, he talked about a woman's time being hens' time. He did not believe in any such thing as the production of eggs by any means other than the hen. In the same way, women's work did not count at all. We must get rid of that and give women all the help we can. It is by the electrification of rural life that we can affirm that objective. At the same time, the spread of electricity will do a great deal for local small industries. There is a very interesting book which I have read called "The Making of France," which shows that the real stability of France was due to the small industries made possible by the power derived from the various streams, and if we can get our small industries in the homes with the use of electricity, it will do a great deal to make our economy sounder than it is.

Mr. Baxter

Like Senator Mrs. Concannon and Senator Ireland, I suppose anyone from the province of Ulster would approach this Bill from probably a different angle from that of some of our Southern colleagues. The sentimental attraction of a measure like this for us is something that it is not easy to put into words. This Bill reveals in very clearly defined language the fact that Ireland is one and that the 32 counties of Ireland, harnessed and working together, can do something for the people of Ireland that can never be done for Ireland or any part of it, if you attempt it as between the six north-eastern counties of Ulster and Britain. This physical achievement is something that could not be done, except by the people of Ireland working together.

True it is that the waters of Monaghan, Leitrim and Cavan have to join and flow through Fermanagh and out through Donegal to the sea in order to make this Bill a possibility and to create the machinery which will be brought into existence under it. We welcome what it proposes and what it undertakes. We hope—I especially hope—that this partial development— and to me this is only the partial development of the Erne scheme—will be continued, until we see the ultimate development, for electricity purposes, of all the waters in the Erne basin. I agree with Senator Hayes and the others who spoke in commending the spirit of realism with which this problem has been approached by the people on both sides of the Border. It is a sign that we are down to earth and prepared to face the possibility of working together and utilising the resources that God has placed at our disposal to harness and utilise for our betterment.

The Bill will do two good things at the same time. It will provide machinery to develop additional electric current which the country badly needs and in doing that good work it will carry out excavations which will be very beneficial to the people of County Fermanagh from the point of view of drainage. Probably, of the 32 counties, there is not a county so badly in need of drainage as County Fermanagh. The work will show itself on the lands of Fermanagh to an extent undreamed of even by their greatest optimists— and I speak with some knowledge, probably more than any other person in this House, of what the land in Fermanagh is like.

The Parliamentary Secretary has indicated that the plan was to control sluices along a watercourse of four miles and one of the main concerns was to prevent the Upper Lough Erne falling below a level of 150 feet. I am sure there were considerable misgivings with some of the people of Fermanagh, especially in the town of Enniskillen, about the possible consequences of an undertaking such as this. Anyone who knows the town of Enniskillen and its very beautiful surroundings would appreciate the concern of the people of Enniskillen about the consequences that might follow a very considerable fall in the water level above the town.

I would like the Parliamentary Secretary to give consideration in his Department, or between it and the Board of Works, to the possibility of developing this scheme over a far greater area than that contemplated under this Bill. The Bill provides for storage in the two lakes in County Fermanagh but I do not think that the distance in miles covered by these works in Fermanagh would be anything like half, perhaps not a third, of the total mileage distance of the Erne basin proper. This extends away over a wide area in County Cavan, into County Monaghan, and partly into County Longford and County Leitrim. I suggest that, just as the imagination of the present Minister for Finance, in other days when he was Minister for Industry and Commerce, conceived and carried into execution the Shannon scheme, this approach to the Erne electricity scheme should be equally imaginative. If we are to develop electricity to the extent the country needs and is demanding and will continue to demand, it will be absolutely necessary to make provision for greater storage than is being done under this Bill. In Cavan, in the Erne basin, there are many lakes where storage could be provided in a season like the present and during the dry summer months, that would ensure our electricity supplies and make us absolutely independent of outside sources. If the engineering problems were examined and the task undertaken, we could build up a tremendous storage capacity in the Lough Gowna and Lough Oughter drainage districts. Equally along the Annalee into County Monaghan there is storage, as there is along the Woodford Canal through Cavan and Leitrim and away back into the mountains of Cavan, the waters from which find their way through the many tributaries of the Erne into the sea.

How a native of these areas will look upon this scheme is to some extent conditioned by the possibility of the drainage results that may flow from the development of electricity on the Erne. Undoubtedly, from the point of view of drainage, Fermanagh will benefit considerably, but all over Cavan and the counties of which I speak no drainage works can be undertaken without taking account of the conditions lower down on the Erne and over the Erne and on the Erne lakes. Conditions in Fermanagh up to the present have been a handicap on us on this side of the Border in making any great effort for drainage there. The Erne drainage comprises the largest area needing drainage in the whole country and a great area of this is in my county. So, while approving and supporting and welcoming warmly this measure, I believe there must be an imaginative approach to the further development of electrical current from the waters of the Erne. That can be ensured very effectively by studying the possibilities over many counties on our own side of the Border. The Parliamentary Secretary gave figures indicating that, last year, our consumption of electricity was 569 million units while it is estimated that the consumption in 1955 may be 1,400 million units. From my own experience, it is quite clear that, as people get a taste of the value of electricity, the demand will grow. At present we can make no reasonable prognostication as to what the consumption may be five years hence. While there is power going to waste, which our own people are competent to harness, our technicians should concentrate on that.

In addition to the development of the electricity which our large rivers can provide for us, there are all over the country fairly large streams from our mountainsides that, by a little expenditure, could be harnessed to give a considerable addition to the resources at present available.

I would urge the Parliamentary Secretary that along with the many other great developments which are being undertaken by his Government at the moment there should be a fresh survey of our total electricity resources in a way in which I think it is not now being undertaken. I feel that money invested in an undertaking like this is money well spent. It is to be hoped that all those who supported this measure and who complimented those concerned in it and who helped to put it into the shape of a Bill, or whose activities at an earlier stage enabled this measure to be presented will be equally co-operative when the Parliamentary Secretary and his colleagues go to the country and ask the people to put their money in this 32-county undertaking and that they will give it all the support it is possible to give it.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Moladh an Bille seo mar gheall air gur comhartha é ar an gcairdeas atá ann idir Rialtas na Sé gCondae agus muintir an Stáit seo. Más comhartha cairdeasa é, ní gá a rá go molaimid ar fad go mór é.

Nuair a beartaíodh scéim seo na hÉirne i dtosach ceapadh go bhféadfaí a leithéid seo d'aontas a dhéanamh. Bhí go leor daoine in aimhreas an uair sin a bhféadfaí aontas a dhéanamh. Ach an té a cheap scéim na hÉirne is é sin an t-iar-Aire Tionscail agus Tráchtála, Seán Lemass, ba duine cúramach, fadbhreathnaitheach é agus bhí muinín aige go bhféadfaí aon deacrachtaí a bheadh ann a shárú. Chruthaigh an aimsir go raibh an ceart aige agus ar a shon sin, chomh maith, is maith liom an Bille seo a mholadh.

Ach is é an fáth is mó go bhfuilim féin sásta leis an mBille mar go gcuirtear ar ár gcumas anois feidhm iomlán a bhaint as an dá Loch Eirne le haghaidh na scéime atá idir lámha ann.

Is minic a shíl mé go mba trua mhór é mara mbeadh ar ár gcumas scéim iomlán forbairte a chur i gcrích ar na lochanna seo. Bheadh scéim teoranta maith go leor muna mbeadh neart air. Ach is léir gur mór an gnóthachan é gur féidir cumhachtaí iomlána na loch a shrianadh ar mhaithe leis an gcuspóir atá ceaptha ag an mBord.

Deir an Rúnaí Parlaiminte go gcosnóidh an t-aontas—taobh amuigh den chostas breise rachmais a bheas ag teastáil leis an scéim iomlán a chur i ngníomh—£750,000. Is é sin le rá, go bhfuil Rialtas na Sé gCondae sásta a gcúrmaí féin faoin aontas a chomhlíonadh ar an £750,000 atá luaite. Is mór an ní é go gcuirfear ar ár gcumas 83,000,000 aonaid breise leictreachais de thoradh an aontais ach chítear dom féin gur maith an margadh é deá-thoil Rialtas na Sé gCondae a bheith ar fáil sa scéal seo ar an airgead sin.

Tugadh moladh do dhaoine a raibh baint acu le bunú agus le neartú tionscail na haibhléise, ón Aire Airgeadais anuas. Ba cheart an moladh sin a thabhairt dóibh. Ach sílim féin go bhfuil duine eile ann a bhfuil moladh ag dul dó. Is é an duine sin, an Dr. Mac Lochlainn atá anois ina stiúrthóir ar an mBord Leictreachais. B'eisean, sílim, a chuimhnigh ar an scéim an chéad uair agus de thoradh a chuid brionglóidí agus machnaimh, creidim, a tháinic an scéim chun cinn. Is le linn dó bheith ag obair i gColáiste na hOllscoile, Gaillimh, a rinne sé an machnamh sin. D'fhéadfaí a rá gurb é Coláiste na hOllscoile, Gaillimh, an cliabhán inar bogadh agus inar neartaíodh gluaiseacht seo aibhléisiú na tíre.

Ar na cuntair a luaigh mé is é sin le rá an bhuadh atá ann agus an t-aontas bheith tugtha chun cinn; an buntáiste atá ann gur féidir feasta leas iomlán a bhaint as an dá loch agus ansin chomh fábharach agus atá réiteach an airgeadais faoin mBille, molaim an Bille agus guidhim gach rath ar an mbeartas atá ar bun ar lochanna Éirne.

Mr. Cosgrave

I would like to thank Senators from all sides of the House for the co-operative manner in which they have discussed this measure. I think the discussion here reflected the spirit which was in evidence in the Dáil and makes it obvious to everyone that the agreement which has been reached between the Electricity Supply Board and the Northern Minister for Finance is welcomed by all the people of the country. I would like to join in the tributes paid here to the officers of the Electricity Supply Board, the officials of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the officials of the Board of Works who contributed to the agreement as well as the officials from the Ministry of Finance in Northern Ireland. The measure holds out hope of co-operation in further matters in the future. It is, as has been described, an example of how enlightened self-interest compels people who differ on other matters, to reach agreement on matters which result in mutual benefits. The conclusion which may be drawn from the agreement reached in this case is obvious—that the economic welfare of the country depends on the country being operated as a unit. I believe that the co-operation which has been achieved can be extended to other spheres. It may be unwise to read too much into the measure before the House or, as Senator Hayes described it, to indulge in wishful thinking, but this country is a geographical entity, a small homogeneous unit, and as such should be regarded by anyone who has its interests at heart. I believe that from the national just as from the economic point of view ultimately wisdom will prevail and that the spirit which animated all concerned in reaching an agreement for the drainage of the river Erne and the erection of power stations to supply electricity will confer further benefits on the Irish people on both sides of the Border. Whether we give credit to the politicians concerned or not, I think we may assume that the politicians on both sides of the Border are interested in the betterment of the people they represent. For that reason the fact that it has been possible to get agreement on this question is a ground for confidence in the ability of the people on both sides of the Border to work together on matters which may prove of material benefit if not other benefit to the people.

The fact that the first stage of the development which was described as a partial development can be extended by additional generating sets is highly satisfactory. It means that the original estimated output of 150,000,000 units will be increased to 230,000,000 units. The figures I gave at the outset show that the demand for electricity is more substantial and it is anticipated that it will continue to grow for many years ahead. As well as providing additional electrical current and the benefits which will be conferred on the lands drained as a result of the works which are to be carried out on the Upper and Lower Loch Erne and in Belleek, I believe that this measure will prove beneficial to the people in the northeast portion of the country as well as to the people in Donegal, Cavan and the adjoining areas.

I would like to thank the House again for the tributes paid to the officials and to the Ministers concerned in this and in previous Governments. I would also like to say that I regard it as a privilege to have the responsibility of piloting this measure through the Oireachtas.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining Stages to-day.

The Seanad went into Committee on the Bill.

SECTION I.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

Liam Ó Buachalla

Is this expression "drainage board" the board that ceased to function in 1940?

Mr. Cosgrave

Yes.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 2 put and agreed to.

SECTION 3.

Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

Liam Ó Buachalla

Is sub-section (1) merely a safeguard or are there some items outstanding for arrangement between the two parties?

Mr. Cosgrave

It may be necessary in the future to make additional agreements, either modifications or supplemental agreements, and consequently it is deemed necessary to put that provision into the Bill. At the moment this agreement is the only one but as work proceeds supplemental or additional agreements may be required.

Liam Ó Buachalla

Does the Parliamentary Secretary visualise any further possible electrical development on the River Erne? In other words is it capable of further development?

Mr. Cosgrave

I do not think at this stage that it is capable but it may be when the proposed works are carried out. I think that at this stage the maximum development is envisaged under the scheme to produce 230,000,000 units.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 4, 5 and 6 put and agreed to.

SECTION 7.

Question proposed: "That Section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Liam Ó Buachalla

With regard to subsection (1) is there very much property in question? The board seems to have been dissolved in 1940 and we are formally dissolving it now. Is there property of any extent?

Mr. Cosgrave

No. It is only so that trustees from both sides may be appointed to wind up whatever matters have to be attended to.

Liam Ó Buachalla

I take it that the trustees are the two parties referred to in sub-section (1), the Finance solicitor and the solicitor to the Minister.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 8 put and agreed to.

SECTION 9.

Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Baxter

I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary is in a position to give me any information on this section, but there is provision here that outstanding arrears of rents and rate charges shall cease from the passing of this Bill. That is very fine as far as it goes, but some years ago in this drainage area there was very considerable and expensive legislation which went to the Supreme Court and left undischarged liabilities which are the responsibility of the ratepayers in the area. It was extended to Cavan and into Leitrim, and if Senator O'Reilly were here he would be able to tell us all about it because his council is very deeply involved to the extent of many hundreds of pounds. I do not think this section completely clears up the situation although it specifically indicates that all liability on the shoulders of the ratepayers will be discharged. I do not know what the result of the passing of the Bill will be, but the section will not cover completely their discharged liabilities. They must be borne by somebody, probably by the ratepayers of Leitrim.

Mr. Cosgrave

This section sets aside the award of 1891 made by the commissioners. Under that award the ratepayers in certain counties affected by the drainage and navigation board were liable through a rate for maintenance, and in order to wind up the navigation board so that the new scheme to operate the drainage may be put into effect it is necessary to set aside the award. Under that award, a drainage rate will no longer be levied on the persons concerned, and that includes, not merely current rates but accrued liabilities. It may be, from what Senator Baxter says, that some persons have incurred expenses, possibly legal expenses. That is a matter for the people concerned, but in so far as the ratepayers or the persons whose lands were affected by the drainage board are concerned, they will no longer be liable for rates in respect of the drainage, and that includes arrears for any liabilities accrued in the past.

Mr. Baxter

I feel, that when you are going so far as to remit liabilities for rates, that it would be unfortunate that there should still remain some liabilities arising out of the legislation, as it was, and that they should still be undischarged. That is the issue, as far as I recall it, after some years now. There was litigation in Belfast, as well as here, arising out of this whole matter. You are going to leave some people, I am afraid, very disappointed. I do not know; if I were to give some time to this, I should probably try to see how we could do something to clear up the obligations that still remain as a result of the legislation of 1891 which you are now repealing, but you still leave a burden.

Mr. Cosgrave

They are not doing badly. The ratepayers' liability is wiped out.

Mr. Baxter

I think you will hear about it again, though.

Mr. Hearne

It will be too late.

Mr. Baxter

That is so.

Question put and agreed to.

Section 10 agreed to.

SECTION 11.

Question proposed: "That Section 11 stand part of the Bill."

Liam Ó Buachalla

A small point, a point, perhaps of geography. What is the position with regard to Belleek bridge at the moment? From now on, it will be the joint responsibility of Donegal and Fermanagh. The bridge, I take it, is in the Six Counties.

Mr. Cosgrave

Donegal County Council is responsible at the moment.

Liam Ó Buachalla

It will be a joint responsibility from this on.

Mr. Cosgrave

Yes, jointly.

Captain Orpen

It seems to me, that we should have some statement from the Parliamentary Secretary as to why this particular bridge must be removed. It happens to be a bridge of considerable interest historically, and as a monument of some interest, it would be desirable that some reason should be given why its removal is necessary. I presume it is because the channel there has to be widened to carry about three times as much water as it carries at present, but I think we ought to have an authoritative statement on that, because here a unique bridge is to be destroyed or abolished for no apparent reason. It happened recently in the neighbourhood of Dublin, that one of the oldest and most interesting bridges in the country had to be abolished because of a hydro-electric development. I think it should always be stressed, when we have to remove these interesting relics of the past, why it is necessary. I notice that the rather less interesting bridge at Roscor where a channel is necessary is to be underpinned, but that is all.

Sections 12, 13 and 14 agreed to.

Schedule and Title agreed to.

Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration, and passed.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Wednesday, 7 Jun 1950

Erne Drainage and Development Bill, 1950—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Captain Orpen

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 7 Jun 1950