Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Dec 1953

Vol. 43 No. 4

Public Business. - Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1953—Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Education (Mr. Moylan)

This Bill is a simple one, but it will have far-reaching results in the country in regard to vocational education. Section (1) is the important section, inasmuch as it envisages a possible wide development and a necessarily greater State and local expenditure. The justification of this is the great demand for vocational education throughout the country based on an appreciation of the advantage which it offers.

Costs of buildings, equipment, salaries and wages have increased so considerably that an amendment of existing arrangements is essential if vocational education committees are to meet the demands made on them and to plan their future programmes with consideration and in a full knowledge of the resources available to them.

Accordingly, the Bill provides for increased local contributions ranging from 3d. to 8d. in the £ over the rating figures specified in existing legislation. This local contribution naturally involves an increase in the amount of State grants payable.

One point on which the Seanad requires assurance is in regard to wasteful expenditure. The fact that a substantial local contribution is involved in every development is a safeguard against wasteful expenditure, and I am satisfied that the various local committees have always given serious consideration to the balance of advantage and disadvantage in all the proposals they put forward to my Department.

It is proposed to provide for a rate of 15d. in the £ for each of 32 committees and 18d. in the £ for each of the remaining six. These six are urban areas with the exception of County Longford, which is a small county with a relatively low return from the rates.

There is a special problem in relation to certain counties where the rateable valuation per head is exceptionally low and my Department has been frequently urged by the Irish Vocational Education Association to make a special provision to meet that problem.

Section 53 of the original Act of 1930 states that, in making regulations for the payment of parliamentary grants to vocational education committees, regard may be had to:—

"(a) the annual local contribution payable to each vocational education committee;

(b) the amount of the rate required to raise such annual local contribution, and

(c) the population of the vocational education area of such committee."

Hitherto, except in urban areas no special weight was given to considerations of population and low valuation in the making of regulations for the payment of grants. When a committee found itself in straitened circumstances and the Department was satisfied that this was due to a low return from the rates, special State subventions were made as required, to tide the committee over its difficulties. This is an unsatisfactory method.

As the vocational education schemes developed, however, it became more and more evident that areas of low valuation were at a great disadvantage. The committees' incomes consisted mainly of the return from the local rates plus an equal sum from the State, and where the local rates produced only a small sum the State grant, too, was small accordingly.

This difficulty in rural areas has now been given special consideration in this Bill. It is proposed to provide by regulation for an increase of the ratio of the State grant to the local contribution in the case of seven county committees, or to place them in relatively the same position as the rest of the county committees. The seven committees concerned are those for the Counties of Galway, Donegal, Kerry, Leitrim, Longford, Mayo and Sligo.

If any of these seven committees finds that its income for any year on the present basis of £1: £1 is insufficient, State grants may be authorised at a ratio of more than £1 to £1, but not exceeding £2 to £1. This will relieve these committees of anxiety on the score of income in regard to contemplated development and will enable them to plan ahead effectively and comprehensively.

The method of computation of the grants is set out in regulations which the Minister makes each year under Section 53 of the Vocational Education Act, and as the original Act empowers the Minister to raise the ratio of grant, there is no specific reference in this Bill to the seven committees concerned. The new arrangement is, however, implicit in the fact that the upper limit of rating in the Bill is fixed in relation to six of the committee's concerned, at 15d., and to the seventh at 18d. These upper limits are much less than would be necessary if the payment of grants to those committees were to continue on the present £1 for £1 basis.

On the £1 for £1 basis, for example, a rate of 2/- would be necessary at present to produce the same total income for vocational education in County Kerry as would a rate of 15d. under the proposed arrangement. In plain language, these committees, of which, incidentally, four are for Gaeltacht counties, will in future be eligible for a higher ratio than heretofore of State grant.

I wish to make perfectly clear, however, that it does not follow that all or any of these seven committees will automatically receive a higher ratio of State grants forthwith, nor that all or any of them will ultimately be placed on a £2:£1 basis. The increasing of the ratio will depend on each committee's probable financial position in the years ahead after ascertaining whether its difficulties could not be met by merely taking up additional rate each year and continuing the grants at the existing ratio.

The estimated additional cost of these proposals in State grants and local rates over and above that authorised by existing legislation is as follows:—

In the year
1954/55	£21,000	Grants, and	£13,000 Rates
1955/56	£40,000	,,	£29,000 ,,
1956/57	£72,000	,,	£47,000 ,,
1957/58	£100,000	,,	£70,000 ,,

—and ultimately, if the full rate is ever taken up by all committees, £597,000 grants and £337,000 rates per annum.

These figures include the additional cost to the State of paying grants to the seven committees mentioned at an increased ratio in accordance with their needs, which cost is estimated at:—

In the year	1954/55	£7,180
,,	1955/56	£8,670
,,	1956/57	£20,430
,,	1957/58	£22,300

—and ultimately, if a 2:1 basis were in operation for all seven, a total of £68,000 per annum. In comparison with the total cost, the amount payable to these low-rated counties is not really significant.

The purpose of Section 2 of the Bill is to deal with matters arising out of the introduction last year of the payment of remuneration to vocational teachers on the same basis as for secondary and primary teachers, namely, by scales of salary differentiated on a marriage basis. All these scales carry children's allowances and rent allowances, but in the case of secondary and primary teachers the children's allowances are payable to retired teachers and to widows of teachers. To pay allowances similarly to pensioned vocational teachers and to widows of vocational teachers would appear to be going beyond the provisions of the Local Government (Superannuation) Acts. The Department of Education is not wholly responsible for vocational education. Moreover, the paying body is, in the case of the superannuation of vocational education officers, the local rating authority. After consultation with the Attorney-General it was decided that provision could be made for the payment of children's allowances to vocational teachers' widows and to superannuated vocational teachers by amending the Vocational Education Acts as is here proposed, so as to enable vocational education committees to pay them out of their funds.

Section 3 of the Bill is intended to remove any doubts as to whether the children's allowances and rent allowances are pensionable. They were intended to be non-pensionable, as they are for primary and secondary teachers, but in view of the meaning of pensionable remuneration as defined in Section 34 of the Local Government (Superannuation) Act, 1948, there was some doubt as to whether they actually were non-pensionable. Section 3 proposes to make them so beyond doubt and thus to bring the vocational teachers into line with the other teachers in this respect.

Professor Hayes

Are the allowances subject to income-tax?

Mr. Moylan

I do not think so.

Professor Hayes

I think they are.

Mr. Moylan

I do not think so. However, I am not quite certain of that at the moment. About a dozen of the committees are now on the maxima allowed by existing legislation or are within a fraction of a penny thereof, and they cannot obtain sufficient income for all their commitments next year unless this Bill is passed at an early date. If it is passed before they make their usual demands early next January to the local rating authority, sub-section (3) of Section 1 will enable them to avail of the additional rate provided in the Bill so as to have increased incomes in the coming financial years.

The Dáil has been so much preoccupied with other matters that this Bill came up for discussion only a week ago. In the month of November each year, vocational education committees prepare and submit to the Department of Education their schemes and estimates for the following financial year, and they have to decide in that month the amount of the local rate which they propose to adopt. For that reason, I was forced to ask the Dáil for special consideration in relation to the Bill, and I am grateful to the Deputies for the cooperative spirit in which they met me in that regard.

While I am hopeful for the same indulgence from the Seanad, I am yet anxious for their consideration and criticism of every aspect of vocational education on which Senators have, from their experience, such criticism to offer. There has been great progress and development, in vocational education, but if we pursue the development, as it is possible was may, we can say that the system is merely in its infancy and wise consideration may enable us to avoid errors that might arise in future development.

I regret that it was impossible to bring the Bill before the Dáil at an earlier time so that there might be a more adequate discussion of the whole problem, but I hope that what we failed to get in the Dáil may help forward what we get in the Seanad.

Professor Hayes

The Minister is a characteristic Cork man. I agree entirely with him that this is the kind of Bill which would merit discussion in this House. It comes to us very inopportunely on the last day of sitting before Christmas and comes to us with a request from the Minister—a very reasonable request I am sure—that we give him all stages to-day. Whether there was delay in the Dáil or in the Department I do not know, but the Dáil is so busy these days with what I called here before reheated porridge —praiseach ó aréir—that they have not time for legislation at all. I wonder whether it would not be possible to evolve a system whereby Estimates in the other House would be finished in the summer and this time of the year devoted to legislation. At any rate, we have to take this Bill as we find it.

The Bill proposes a further development in vocational education and vocational education in this country has a great many merits. In the first place, it is almost the only sphere in which voluntary mixed committees work extremely well for a national purpose. It is, I think, an excellent idea to have the association of teachers, managers, educationists, outsiders, with representatives of local bodies to manage vocational schools. There is, of course, in certain places, a fairly long tradition of vocational education. In Dublin, for example, and in other cities, it goes back to the old British Department of Agriculture which, I think, could be regarded as the beginning of Home Rule in this country. It was extended in 1930 by the then Minister for Education, Professor J.M. O'Sullivan, and it is now well established in the country and a great many buildings have been put up as vocational schools.

In Dublin and, I am sure, in other cities, there is, as I say, a well-established tradition and considerable education in arts and crafts. The technical school in Dublin which began in Kevin Street has a very remarkable history of efficiency and of keeping up to date with various discoveries and it should be the policy of the Minister, we would all agree, that the vocational schools should be devoted, in the main, to the teaching of domestic arts and crafts, the teaching of trades, and should not, if it could be avoided—I know it is difficult to avoid it—afford assistance to the movement towards what one might call white-collar occupations and the turning away from occupations which require manual skill and all the various types of work that have to be done on a farm. In cities, there is necessity for a certain amount of what is called commercial education, but it is very undesirable that there should be in country towns a tendency for vocational schools to be used merely for shorthand and typewriting. The committees in pretty well all cases are very sound and I should like to say that in the efforts made by University College Dublin and University College Cork towards adult education, very good assistance has been given by the committees and by the officers of these committees in co-operation with the university authorities in forming classes for adult education. With regard to the general tendency, I often wonder whether the rural bias about which so much is talked can be achieved merely by teaching a subject like rural science. We are becoming very rapidly urbanised and urbanisation is a comparatively recent thing in this country. It has taken place with great rapidity in the past 30 years. When I was a boy the great majority in Dublin were only one generation removed from the country, but I am sometimes amazed by the complete ignorance of young people from country towns of how people just outside the town live. Whether it is affectation or not, I am not quite sure, but, at any rate, the education they get seems to remove them entirely from any knowledge of the type of life their fathers or their grandfathers lead.

I wonder whether vocational schools could not be used a little more for the purpose of telling people exactly how our fathers or our grandfathers lived, what kind of houses they had, what kind of furniture they had, what kind of tools they used for the work they had to do before reapers and binders the tractors and all the modernisation which is now on the farms came in. I wonder would it be possible to have in each school some material examples of the kind of tools used, and the kind of life led in rural Ireland. I am not pleading for a stress upon history. I think we have almost too much history about the injustices suffered by the Irish and about the political struggle and not enough about how the land was used, how people lived, how they played and how they laughed, because, in spite of history books which show us the Gael ground down in the dust, there must have been considerable vigorous life in the country. We need to know more about that.

There is at present in the museum in Dublin, under the Minister's control, a folk section. It is very well done, but, of course, it entirely cramped for space. It is in a very small space and has, indeed, too much material for the space it has. I take this opportunity of suggesting to the Minister that we need folk museums in the country and need in Dublin an open-air folk museum, which would show in an open space the kind of houses people lived in, the kind of furniture they had and the tools they used. Such a thing is common in the Scandinavian countries. There is a project afoot to establish such a museum in Belfast. It would be very curious if the part of the country which is the most agricultural were to be beaten by the more industrialised section of the country in showing to the people, the young people in particular, the kind of rural life which existed in the country 100 years ago.

I think we would need to know, more than anything else, more than the doctrinaire politics, more than pride in political achievement or even in military struggles, what kind of life people led in the country and how they survived under very great difficulties. If we can awaken knowledge of that kind of life we would awaken pride in it and it would be a greater remedy for urbanisation than any other thing that education could give. Pride must be based on knowledge and I think the vocational schools could be used to give that knowledge. If they were, it would be a considerable step forward and it would serve as an antidote to the great tendency towards life in the town and white collar occupations which turn people away from skilled workmanship and the farm.

There is another point to which I should like to draw the Minister's attention. It is an old point about which a great deal has been said and it is one about which I spoke before. The teaching of Irish in the vocational schools could stress a background of rural life more than a knowledge of the irregular verbs. There has always been a certain amount of discontent among university graduates about the way in which they are treated in vocational schools. The Department itself recently, I think in September of last year, initiated a course for teachers of Irish specially under the Department itself and entry to that course was at the point of having the Intermediate Certificate and not even the Leaving Certificate.

The course took nine months and those who passed at the end—a small number of people, I think about 20— were then declared to be qualified to teach Irish, English, Arithmetic and Geography in the vocational schools. I think that kind of a course is a mistake. University graduates should be accepted for that purpose. I do not think that people who merely have the Intermediate Certificate are competent to be made teachers for any purpose in our vocational schools. I suggest that that kind of quick, special intensive course is not sufficient and that the people who attend vocational schools should have an opportunity of contacts with teachers who have a wider knowledge.

That particular wider knowledge may not be used for any particular class. It is recognised generally by educationists that teachers should have a knowledge that is on a much broader base than people can possibly have by beginning a course of instruction as teachers after they have completed a secondary school course. It is a costly method, too, of training teachers. Teaching brought to that level is a mistake. There may be certain exceptions necessary in the case of Irish but I think that kind of course is not going to increase the efficiency of our vocational schools.

Perhaps it is not the Minister's fault that we had not time to discuss this matter adequately. I merely dealt with two specific points, but before I sit down I must say to the Minister that I know his predecessor was interested in the matter. I know that other people were interested and I think the present Minister himself is interested in the matter, but it is nothing short of a disgrace that, in a country like this, which boasts of its rural roots and always talks about agricultural production, we should not be able to show our young people, say, in such a place as the Phænix Park—it is a comparatively large area—the houses, furniture and implements of all kinds that our ancestors used. Mind you, they need not go very far back into history either to say: "That is how my grandfather lived." That would be the case with the great majority of people even in Dublin City. I think that project would be worthwhile. There would be some initial expense but the project would eventually pay for itself. People coming from overseas—and we talk a lot about tourism—would see here what they would not see elsewhere. That has been done in Wales. It is projected in Belfast and I think it would be very bad if we did not make an endeavour to do it. It must be the responsibility of some Department and I think the Minister for Education, particularly the Minister in charge of vocational education, is the person who should initiate the project. I think it has the Minister's goodwill and I would urge upon him not to relax in his efforts to see that it is done. I entirely agree with the Bill.

Mr. Baxter

I would like to make one or two observations on this measure. Like Senator Hayes, I consider it was rather a pity that we did not get this measure earlier so that we would be able to discuss it with a little more leisure. It is not obviously a political measure in any sense. Accordingly, we can express ourselves in a frank and sincere way without any sort of feeling that what we say will be pounced upon by somebody on the other side.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that he would welcome frank criticism and the views of people in this House who have experience of vocational education as it is. Anything that anybody in this House can say can only be said from his own personal experience in the field of vocational education.

I support, in the main, everything Senator Hayes said. I think it is really unfortunate that in our educational scheme, as it is at present operating, there is not more emphasis on that other not too distant past about which there is too little known. This measure makes provision for local authorities to raise a much larger rate for the expansion of vocational education in the future. I know it is frequently said that there is no more unwelcome form of niggardliness than to cheesepare in the matter of education. That statement may be partially true, but I think there is the other aspect in regard to this whole problem of expenditure on education and it is this.

This is a poor country and we have to study carefully what we are going to spend on any particular service. It is the responsibility of those who have anything to say to ensure, when we are going to spend money, it is going to be spent wisely and in such a way that we will get the greatest possible advantage from what is being spent. I know a number of counties, including my own, which have gone to the limit in regard to the rate that can be levied for educational purposes.

There is a clamour for the building of new vocational schools and the Minister seems to be very busy. We all agree that it is a welcome sign of the times to see him opening new schools up and down the country. Hundreds of thousands of pounds are being spent on new buildings throughout the country for primary and vocational purposes.

On another occasion we had Senator Hayes talking here about spending hundreds of thousands of pounds on university education. That is very commendable work in a new country —because in a sense that is how we must classify ourselves—but I have the feeling that in many of our countries this problem of expenditure on vocational education must be approached with a considerable degree of caution. I have been a member of a vocational committee for a great many years. I am not discussing my own feelings in this matter alone, but feelings which are shared by colleagues of mine on the vocational committee when I say we are really not happy about the expenditure on vocational education.

Senator Hayes pointed to the efforts of our vocational schools to tell us something about our past, but if I have a feeling of mental disturbance about this problem it is because we are not quite clear where we want to go in future. We are spending a very considerable sum on vocational education but if you look around amongst your neighbours, amongst young people growing up, you wonder to what purpose it is being spent. Our rural schools are teaching commercial subjects; there are woodwork teachers, domestic science teachers and perhaps an Irish teacher. When you look to see what the fruits of their labours are in any particular district, you must confess that in the people around you there is not much evidence of it.

I do not want that to be taken as a condemnation of our schools or our vocational teachers, many of whom work very hard and very industriously but I am forced on many occasions to wonder whether our approach to this problem of vocational education is a proper one or not. New schools are being built to teach subjects which can be taught, in my opinion, more profitably, from the point of view of the pupil, in the national schools. With the necessity for economy in the country, and bearing in mind the great expenditure on education, it would be very well to study whether or not the national teacher could teach boys and girls such subjects as English and mathematics as well as that work can be done in a vocational school.

When children come to 14 years of age they want to get away from the discipline of the national school in their own locality. They want to be able to hop on their bicycles and travel the four or five miles to town and back again every day. There is more freedom in that, but I question whether it is better for education or for discipline for the boys or girls. Furnishing the kind of material that will be valuable to the child in after life would be much more profitably done in the local surroundings where there would be less waste of time and effort. We are duplicating in our vocational schools what could be better done in the national school.

I wish I could say positively what I would like done. My difficulty is that while I am unhappy with what we are doing and the results accruing from our present line of policy, it is terribly difficult to decide what is to be put in its place. We are not clear about the purpose of vocational education and the children who are going there are much less clear. They are sent to these schools to learn woodwork and other subjects, and they are catalogued and pigeon-holed; many of them are not clear as to what classes they wish to attend, whether shorthand and typing or other subjects. Many children coming from national schools want to learn shorthand and typewriting, although we all know the difficulties of providing worthwhile employment in that kind of work. There is an intensive demand for employment of this nature that is not profitable from the point of view of earning.

Many young people who attend the vocational schools clear out of the country afterwards. You do not see where the boys and girls who do their courses in these schools leave their mark. It is true that many of them, due to the attitude of trade unions, find it difficult to find employment and to sell their service. That is something that ought to be put right. It is a great tragedy that we have spent such great sums on vocational education over a number of years with such meagre results.

The people who direct our vocational plan ought to have in their minds a purpose in regard to the subjects they teach. The primary purpose ought to be that the boys and girls going through these schools are going to serve and live in Ireland. They ought to inculcate in them the feeling that they want to remain in this country and their training should be shaped to that end. That applies to universities as well. We are giving the wrong type of education to thousands of our young people and when they have got it they cannot live in this country—there is no employment for them.

We ought to reconsider this whole problem. In our rural districts our vocational schools serve as a kind of secondary establishment for boys and girls many of whom cannot afford the fees at a secondary school but they are just a stepping stone over which they pass to emigration.

Under our vocational plan we ought to be able to provide a lecturer who would go into our rural schools perhaps once a week or every three weeks and discuss with each class something about what they mean to do in life, where they mean to go, and how they mean to live. He would talk to them of the desirability of so shaping their scheme of education that they can sell their services here in Ireland. I do not think anyone is emphasising that point of view for our young people. We are just drifting helplessly along. Neither teachers nor parents are stressing that aspect of the problem, and the immediate desire of so many young people at 18 or 20 years of age is to flee from the country. Those of us with more experience know that they are fleeing to economic conditions and a way of life much less desirable than they could enjoy at home. The economic standards, if measured completely, are not as high as they could enjoy at home if they had the right slant from the beginning and went out with a proper purpose to work in their own country.

I have to express the feeling I have had for many years as a member of a vocational committee, that I am never happy about the money we are spending. It is very difficult to show in what way it can be spent so as to give better results. I am not alone in that. Many of my colleagues have those feelings also, and we have expressed them one to another. We are all too easy-going about it. We are not vigorous enough in tackling the problem.

Senator Hayes referred to rural science. I do not understand why every boy who is going to be the boy on the farm at home should not be inveigled, if there is a rural science teacher in the school, to attend the rural science class. There is no one bothering about that. The parents are not bothering, as many of them know very little about rural science. People in public life, Deputies and Senators, are not bothering—many of them are themselves comparatively uninformed about it. If we had rural science in our vocational schools, a teacher who could teach rural science, who could go out into the fields with the boys from the vocational school and demonstrate by example the meaning of the science as taught in the schools, that would arouse a fresh interest in rural life and strike the imagination of those boys in a way no one has done up to the present. I believe that ought to be done.

There is a problem to-day with regard to teachers. A complaint very frequently made in my county is that we have not been able to provide up to the present any training in electricity. We have rural electrification all over the country but there is only a limited number of people who can do anything in this sphere. The great bulk of the people who are to be served by electricity would hardly know how to put in a bulb. This is a requirement which demands immediate attention. If value is to be got from electrical power in rural districts, a great many more people must be taught to understand it so as to be able to do something for themselves, and for their neighbours who cannot fend for themselves. I do not know whose job it is. It does not seem to be a function of vocational education. On more than one occasion our committee tried to get a teacher, but he was not available. Naturally those who are expert in electricity at the moment in an area are not going to come along and train more teachers, since the greater the number trained the less work will be for themselves; in other words, a limited number of people can make a "corner" out of this, as it is there at present.

I understand there is a shortage of domestic science teachers and there is definitely a shortage of rural science teachers. We have advertised a lot for one or two rural science teachers and cannot find them. Is that not an appalling situation where so many people come from the land, where the land is so vital, and where people are continuously crying out that there is nothing for young people to do? Some one should give attention to this whole problem of diverting the minds of young people into those fields where they can most profitably sell their services in the future. From that point of view, a great deal of the money we have spent on education in every field up to the present has not been spent as profitably as it might have been.

As one representative of a local authority, I would be more enthusiastic in asking my colleagues to increase the rate for vocational education if I were satisfied that we were doing the right thing, that we were providing our young citizens with the type of training which would be valuable to them in Ireland, which would make them proud and anxious to work in Ireland and to serve Ireland. I do not see those fruits coming from the scheme of vocational education as it is to-day. I do not know the remedy. I have never had sufficient opportunity to work this out, or time at my disposal to try to work it out. We know about the folk schools in Denmark and the great development they have made. We know of the achievements of the Danes in farming and in engineering. We look around this country with its high level of individual intelligence and see such backwardness everywhere. We must come to the conclusion that there is something wrong with us as a people or that the people who are trying to train our minds and shape our course are not training in the right direction and that someone has to sit down and think again.

I do not know whether these remarks will be regarded as a criticism of the Bill or not. I believe we must go on and we will probably find the better way, but we will only find the better way by individuals who feel a certain way about it expressing dissatisfaction. I can only say that while I support the Bill I am not happy that we are getting value for the money and I think it is incumbent on us to think again.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

D'fhéadfaí ana-chuid rudaí a chur fé dhíospóireacht maidir leis an mBille seo. Baineann gairm-oideaches go dlú le saol mhuintir na tíre seo, ach nílimse ach chun cúpla rud do lúa anseo. Nuair a tosnaíodh leis an ngairm-oideachas sa tír seo, bhí amhras orm an bhféadfaí é do chur chun críche do réir mar bhí coinne ag lucht a stiúrtha an uair sin. Is maith liom é bheith le rá agam go raibh dearmhad á dhéanamh agam agus go bhfuil dul chun cinn maith déanta ó shoin, go bhfuil gairm-oideachas á leathnú amach ar fud na tíre agus go bhfuil níos mó éilimh air, ní amháin ins na bailtí móra ach ar fud na tuaithe chomh maith.

Do réir mar a chímse é, is a dul i méid a bheídh sé.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo mar caithfear níos mó airgid ar oideachas gairme beatha sa tír seo agus go mór-mhór de bhrí go bhfuil an smaoineamh ann gur ceart níos mó cabhair a thabhairt do chontaethe áirithe. Seacht gcontaethe bochta iad agus, fé mar a dúirt an tAire, baineann cheithre chontae díobh leís an nGaeltacht. Siné an chúis, go mór-mhór, go gcuirim fáilte roimh cuid den Bhille seo nó don rud atá ar intinn faoin mBille seo—níos mó airgid do thabhairt do na daoine ins na contaethe sin, contaethe ina bhfuil an luacháil íseal agus nach féidir an oiread airgid d'fháil ó phinginn agus is féidir a fháil i gcontaethe eile sa tír seo.

Do deineadh tagairt cheana don abhar sin tuath-eolaíocht. Im thuairim-se, is abhar ana-thábhachtach é agus is ceart é do chur ar an gclár chomh mór agus is féidir. Cadítuath-eolaíocht?

Sin í an cheist. Baineann ana-chuid rudaí leis an dtuaith, ach ceapaim gurb é an rud is tábhachtaí ná conus an talamh d'oibriú i gceart. Sin ceist talmhaíochta.

Fé mar a dúirt an tAire, tá baint ag Aire eile le cúrsaí gairm-oideachais sa tír seo, an tAire Rialtais Áitiúil, mar is as na rátaí a faightear cuid mhaith den airgead. Luíonn sé le réasún, mar sin, go mbeadh focal údarásach le rá ag an Aire Rialtais Áitiúil, ach im thuairim-se, ba cheart go mbeadh baint ag Aire eile leis an saghas seo oideachais—an tAire Talmhaíochta. Ba chóir, más féidir é a dhéanamh ar aon chor, feidhm a bhaint as na cigirí agus na teagascóirí sa Roinn Talmhaíochta chun cabhrú le hoideachais gaírme beatha sa tír seo. Ba chóir na daoine sin do chur ar fáil chun léachtaí agus teagasc do thabhairt ar conus is féidír na torthaí is fearr a bhaint as an talamh, ar conus an chré agus an talamh a leasú i gceart, agus mar sin de. Baineann na ceisteanna sin go léir le saol na tuaithe agus is dócha go mbaineann siad le tuath-eolaíocht.

Rinne mé tagairt cheana do cheist na Gaeilge ins na scoileanna sin. Tá mé den dtuairim gur féidir mórán obair mhaith do dhéanamh ar son na teangan ins na scoileanna gairm-oídeachais. Admhaím go bhfuil obair mhaith dá déanamh iontu cheana féin mar tuigtear dom go bhfuil múinteoirí Gaeilge in gach ceann des na scoileanna sin. Is féidir go bhfuil an teagasc ins na scoileanna sin sásúil chomh fada is a bhaineann sé le múineadh na Gaeilge ach ní leor é go múinfear an Ghaeilge mar lom-abhar ins na scoileanna sin. Ba cheart an obair do leathnú agus ceangal do chur ar bun ídir gach scoil gairm-oideachais sa tír seo agus an saol leasmuigh a mhusclódh suim na ndaoine ins an gceist. Tá eagla orm go bhfuil an iomad ceangail ar na múinteoirí ins na scoileanna sin agus nach bhfuil an tsaoire acu a bhíodh ag múinteoirí taistil, mar shompla, chun cúrsaí cultúra Gaeilge do chur ar aghaidh chomh maith leis an dteanga féin. Má's mian linn an Ghaeilge a bheith in a teanga bheo, ní mór dúinn í do chothú le cúrsaí den tsaghas sin. Sí beatha na teangan í a labhairt agus an cultúr a leanann í a chothú chomh maith.

Ba chóir go mbeadh sé ar chúrsa aon mhúinteora atá ag múineadh ins na scoileanna gairme oideachais an obair chultúir do chur ar aghaidh chomh maith le múineadh na teangan féin. 'Sé atá in aigne agam ná drámaíocht agus rudaí den tsórt sin. Sa tslí sin, is féidir beatha a thabhairt do'n teanga Ghaeilge. Go dtí go ndéanfar é sin, agus go dtí go mbeidh ceangal níos deise idir an scoil agus an saoghal leasmuigh, ní bheídh an oiread dá dhéanamh ar son na Gaeilge agus ba mhaith linn a bheith.

Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil mórán eile le rá agam faoin mBille seo i láthair na huaíre. Fé mar a dúirt an tAire, is Bille simplí é cé go bhfuil mórán leastuigh de. Is maith liom go mbeadh a thuille airgid le fáil don tsaghas oideachais seo. Fé mar a dúras, tá súil agam go ndéanfar obair dá réir ins na contaethe go bhfuil an socrú speisialta seo dá dhéanamh dóibh.

Professor Fearon

This is a most useful and timely measure and I very gladly support it. I am one of the people who have enormous belief in the importance of our vocational education and in its ultimate development in this country. Becoming more and more industrialised as we are, vocational training will be more and more important in our general set-up as a people. We are coming into a sort of technocracy. Anything that can help our people to develop their natural skill is something which we ought to assist in every way and for that reason I welcome a Bill which makes more money available for vocational education and also seeks to raise that money in a more equitable way by distributing it more fairly amongst the sources of revenue.

At the same time, I am sorry we cannot raise a little more, and I wonder if the Minister would consider a way in which that might be done. Our industries are developing so rapidly and, in many cases, so successfully, and drawing more and more on our vocationally-trained boys for their supply, that I feel that Irish industry should contribute to the maintenance and upkeep of our vocational education. Senator Baxter referred to electricity and the problem of ensuring that people know how to attend to electrical fittings in their ordinary working conditions. I presume the E.S.B. contribute to the training of the boys whom they will in future employ, but I should be very surprised if what they contribute would represent very much of the expense incurred in giving the proper technical training. I feel that we, as ratepayers and taxpayers, are paying for the training of boys that eventually will be used in the industry. We are not only paying for the goods we eventually buy but for the training of the people who make them, and I believe that industry should contribute much more effectively to the support of all this technical vocational training, especially as modern industry is becoming extremely technical and requires proper training in the use of modern apparatus, properly trained teachers and so on, and it would be in the interest of industries to see that the fields from which they will recruit future workers are satisfactory.

How can industry be interlinked so that it can be drawn on to aid vocational education, as I believe it does in England and Northern Ireland? One way in which that might be done would be by enlarging the vocational education committees to include representatives of all the industries and then seeking to have them devise some methods for contributing to vocational education. Another way, of course, would be to allow them an income-tax rebate on money spent for the purpose of the technical education of the students they will eventually employ. In short, I feel that we should get far more support from our developing industries for our technical training, much of which will be employed in these industries. That is possibly the answer to some of Senator Baxter's apprehensions with regard to the money being spent on vocational education. I do not think, by any means, that too much money is being or will be spent, but more money might come from another channel.

I should like to avail myself of the Minister's suggestion that we should discuss this matter more generally by referring to the teachers in these vocational education institutions. People come to me, having graduated or having done science, for suggestions as to what they should do, and I often make the suggestion: "What about vocational education? It is very interesting work, very valuable work and very important work in this country." I find, however, that it is not popular among certain types of students, and I find that certain criticisms are levelled at it. I wonder how much there is in this type of criticism? Vocational education, I understand, draws its recruits for teaching from three types of person—the ordinary trainee, the part-time teacher and the university graduate. In the case of a trainee, I have been told that the standard is so disappointing that, of the trainees, only about 10 per cent. eventually qualify for a grade A teachership. If that is true, something is wrong—either the method of selecting the trainees is not sufficiently widespread or the inducement is not sufficient.

Another complaint made to me is that the trainee who has some special line and who takes up this work in the belief that he will be called on to teach, principally, if not entirely, in that line, finds, later on, that he is expected to teach in subjects (a) in which he may have no interest and in which he may not be able to acquire an interest and (b) what is even worse, for which he may have no aptitude. That is a very discouraging possibility. I have often heard it said that, where a trainee for some reason finds that he is not really qualified to teach, he is confronted with a fine of a considerable sum of money, if he gives up his endeavours. That fine, I have been told, has to be paid in a lump sum and not spread over a number of years.

If these are real grievances, they are grievances which ought to be examined, if we are considering spending more money on vocational education because the teacher is an enormously important person. He is more than a technician; he is a craftsman, and, if he is enthusiastic about his craft, he will awaken enthusiasm in the students and that enthusiasm will help to keep them at work. The enthusiasm of the craftsman is a very precious thing indeed, and if it is going to be frustrated by various obstacles, such as diversion to teaching subjects not his own and the like, we are in danger of losing it. For these reasons, I take the opportunity of drawing the Minister's attention in a formal way—I am sure he knows about them already—to the possibility of inter-locking industry and making the wheels of industry do a little turning to the wheels of education, since industry will profit so much by it, and to the question of the technical teacher in vocational education who is an extremely important person and whose interests require to be very well and very carefully safeguarded.

Pádraig Ághas

Ba mhian liom beagán a rá ar an mBille seo. Tá áthas orm gur chuír an tAire an Bille seo ar fáil agus tá moladh mór ag dul dó. Tá dhá thaobh thábhachtacha ar an mBille. Sé an chéad rud go bhfuil deontaísí le fáil ag na coistí as na rátaí nó as na sraitheanna agus an tarna rud: go bhfuil breis airgid á thabhairt ag an Rialtas. Ina theannta sin, tá rud eíle ann—tagann sé i gcabhair ar na daoine is mó go bhfuil an chabhair in easnamh orthu, na daoine ins na contaethe ar bhord na mara thiar An deontas a fuarthas ón Rialtas nuair a cuíreadh an tAcht Gairm Oideachaís ar bun, bunaíodh é ar na deontaisí a bhí le fáil fén sean-Acht, Acht an Chéard Oideachais a tugadh air, agus ins na contaethe sin, ní raibh forbairt cheart nó forbairt iomlán déanta ar an gcéard oideachais. Mar gheall air sin, ní raíbh deontaisí móra le fáil fé mar a bhí le fáil ins na cathracha móra agus na contaethe i lár na tíre. Tá an Bille seo ag teacht i gcabhaír orthu sin anois, agus go mbeidh seans acu an deontas sa bhreis d'fháil.

Anois, ní dhéanfaidh mé mórán cainte ar an mBille fhéin. Do hiarradh orm labhairt anseo thar cheann Chontae an Chláir. Do fágadh Contae an Chláir amach as an mBille agus ní thuigeann éinne i gContae an Chláir cén fáth. Dúradh gur fágadh as an mBille sínn toisc go rabhamar go maith as. Tá mise ar an gCoiste sin le fiche bliaín anuas agus is minic a fuaireamar litreacha ón Roinn á rá linn nach féidir linn dul ar aghaidh le hobaír áirithe agus le hobaír a bhí beartaíthe againn a chur ar siúl toisc go rabhamar ró-bhocht. Bhíomar i bhfiacha leis an mBannc agus toisc go rabhamar i bhfiacha leis an mBannc níorbh fhéidir linn dul ar aghaidh in aon chor. Tháinig an lá sa deire agus bhítheas ag bagairt orainn ón taobh seo agus ón taobh sin agus ón taobh eile, ach b'éigin do mhuintear Inis Tíomáin an chluas bhodhar a thabhairt dóibh. Níorbh fhéidir linn dul ar aghaidh agus scoil d'fháil do Inis Tíomáin toisc gur rabhamar ro-bhocht. Bhíomar i bhfiacha leis an mBannc ach fágach amach as an mBille seo sinn toisc go rabhamar ró-mhaith as.

Go dtí anuraidh bhí "overdraft" againn agus b'éigin dúinn rud éigin a dhéanamh mar gheall ar sin chun cead d'fháil an obair d'fhorbairt agus do leathnú. Chuamar go dtí an Chomhairle Contae agus thugadar dúinn an phingin dob aoírde d'fhéadfaidís a thabhairt dúinn. I dteannta leis an méid sin, agus na deontais a tháinig ón Rialtais, bhí ar ár gcumas na fiacha do ghlanadh agus anois tá fearasbarr beag fágtha againn agus sin é an fearasbarr dóite dúinn! Do fágadh amach as an mBille sinn mar gheall air.

Tá Contae an Chláir cosúil díreach le Contae na Gaillimhe, Contae Mhuigheo agus Contae Chiarraí. Gabháltaisí beaga is mó atá ag an gcuid is mó de na daoine ann, agus £10 an luacháil is aoirde atá ar an gcuid is mó acu. Tá fhios ag gach duine nach féidir le feirmeoirí a bhfuil gabháltas den tsaghas sin acu meán-oideachas do thabhairt dá bpáistí. Uime sin, tá an-éileamh ar ghairm-oideachas. Táthar ag iarraidh orainn scoileanna do bhunú anseo agus ansúd agus ní féidir linn é dhéanamh. Iarrtar orainn ranganna adhmadóireachta, miotalóireachta, sníomhadóireachta, obair olla agus tís do chur ar bun.

Ní féidir linn na múinteoirí d'fháil. Níl an t-airgead againn chuige. Tá na daoine an-mhí-shásta linn. Tá liosta an-mhór de na hiarrataisí sin ag an Rúnaí. Cuirimíd na rudaí ar an méar fhada. Ní féidir linn aon rud eile a dhéanamh agus ní féidir linn múinteoirí do chur ar fáil. Muna bhfaghaimíd an deontas sa bhreis chun scoil a bhunú in Inis Tíomáin ní bheidh ar ár gcumas na múinteoirí d'íoc gan dul i bhfiacha arís.

Tá súil againn go dtiocfaidh an tAire i gcabhair orainn. Tá súil agam nach dóchas in aisce é. Do réir na tuairme atá acu í gContae an Chláir, ní dóigh liom é. Caithfidh an tAire teacht i gcabhair orainn agus an scéal do leigheas.

Mar gheall ar an mBille fhéin, b'fhéidir go bhfuil go leor cainte déanta cheana féin, ach tá cúpula pointe mar gheall ar an nGaeilge ar mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh dóibh. Maidir leis na múinteoirí a fuair oilíúint, cheapamar go gcuirfí amach ar fud na tíre iad mar thimirí. Is mór an trua nach bhfuil cuid acu ag obair mar "free lances." Ceapaim gur cóir iad a chur amach go dtí an Ghaeltacht agus an Bhreac-Ghaeltacht ach go háirithe.

Ins na scoileanna féin d'fhéadfaí atmosféir Gaelach a chothú gan trioblóid ar bith ach úsáid a bhaint as mion-chaint i nGaeilge—rudaí ar nós: "Dún an doras" nó "Cuir suas an clár-dhubh." Deintear é sin sa Ghaeltacht ach ní deintear é ar fad sa tír. Dá ndéanfadh na múinteóirí an rud sin do chabhródh sé go mór leis an atmosféir Gaelach sin do threisiú. Tá súil agam go ndéanfaídh an tAire an rud a bhfuil muintear Chontae an Chláir ag súil leis.

Mr. S.T. Ruane

I would like to say at the outset that I welcome this Bill as I consider it affords a corrective for certain evils that have militated very much against the success of vocational education in this country. At the very outset the vocational system was taken up earnestly and enthusiastically by the urban areas and the large towns and they set immediately about erecting very expensive, well-equipped and beautiful schools. Some of us down the country felt at that particular time— 24 or 25 years ago that that money would have been better spent in extending and popularising the system throughout the rural areas where there was every necessity for it. We believed at that particular period, when the vocational system was in its infancy, that the style of building was not as important as the nature of the instruction to be imparted and that the buildings would come afterwards when the people had grasped that the system really intended to do something to bring back a love of the arts and crafts that, as Senator Hayes pointed out in opening the debate, prevailed in this country 100 years ago. That was not done and, as far as I know, the personnel of these vocational committees were mostly drawn from the urban areas and the big towns. Naturally, they were anxious to bring the benefits immediately to their own particular areas and they did that.

Quite an amount of useful work was done in these schools, but the system was very adversely criticised and never more criticised than when the local body met at the estimates meeting and discussed the contribution that the vocational committee expected to get in order to qualify for the parliamentary grant that was made available. Naturally, representatives from the rural areas asked at these meetings: "What will our people get out of this system?" The only reply was: "The system is in its infancy and eventually it will spread out." This Bill will do something to help it to spread out and I am sorry that something of this kind was not done very many years ago when I believe no small contribution would have been made towards correcting the flight from the country into the big towns and cities and emigration to England.

The people generally in the country up to recently were not very sympathetic to the system for the reason I have given. They did not see any evidence of the benefits the system was bringing to their particular areas. Latterly that apathy has been conrected more or less, and that has been mainly due to the work of the vocational committees in the different centres who are now sending out part-time teachers and carrying the instruction into the remote areas. As far as the large schools in the urban areas are concerned, some people from the rural districts availed of the instruction given there, but it was only those who could provide transport for themselves or who could afford to take up residence in the centre in which the school was built who could attend. I know one case myself of a young man who cycled 20 miles every morning and evening during a course in order to avail of the instruction being given in ironwork at one of the urban national schools.

There has been much criticism as to the standard of education that many applicants for admission to the vocational schools have on entering there. There is every reason to raise that question because the standard in many cases is not what it should be. Twenty years ago it was not an unusual thing to find boys of 15 to 17 years of age attending the national schools during the winter months, and they will admit themselves to-day that the two years when they came back, say, from November to March, were certainly the years in which they reaped the greatest benefit, because they had at least reached the use of reason, and they realised what they had lost through their carelessness in earlier years.

It is a most unusual thing now to find pupils, boys especially, in the national schools after they reach the age of 14 years. Even before they reach the age of 14 years very many of those who would and could derive considerable benefit from vocational instruction have not the standard of education to avail of that, not because the standard is low in the primary schools but because of the apathy of their parents in regard to the attendance of these youngsters during the years that they should attend school. The apathy, of course, led to the first Government passing compulsory attendance legislation but I am sorry to say that as far as the West is concerned that Compulsory Attendance Act is only administered in a very indifferent way. If the youngsters are anxious, as Senator Baxter pointed out, to get out of the national school and enter the vocational school, they would be in a better position to avail of that instruction if they attended the primary schools regularly up to 14 years of age.

What I like about this Bill is that the extra financial assistance that it purports to provide for certain areas is contingent on the work of the vocational committees in expanding the system into the areas where it has not been known before. I believe that it is not the intention of the Minister or the Act that the extra money should be spent on further improving conditions in the urban school and neglecting the rural areas as they were neglected up to recently.

In some of the large schools that were built in my own county the teachers or the committee showed a certain amount of originality and initiative so far as the instruction was concerned, which was to their credit. During the time that paraffin oil and petrol were very scarce in this country, when many cars were laid up in the garages and when motor-car batteries could be got almost for a song, one particular school in Mayo specialised in instructing its pupils on the construction of wind-chargers. Because of that the disabilities that were suffered in other areas where people could not buy an ordinary candle, were not in evidence in this quarter. Before rural electrification was extended there, many houses that had pupils attending that vocational school had their own electric light. I believe that if the intention in relation to which this particular extra financial assistance is being given is carried out by the committees administering the system in the different counties, much good will be done. I am not so much concerned even now with the building of schools in these areas. Unfortunately at the present time many national schools have not sufficient pupils to occupy all their rooms, and even where the rooms are occupied I know of no manager or teacher who would object to having part-time classes carried on in his particular district which would bring instruction to the adults in the area, which they certainly would appreciate.

I know districts where classes in carpentry are being carried on and are very much appreciated. Within the last couple of weeks a three-months class in a particular school was about to cease. There was a unanimous request from an excellent attendance to have that class continued for three months more. That is an indication to me that the rural areas, if they get an opportunity of reaping some of the benefits of this system, will avail of that opportunity and no other section of the community will be more enthusiastic about the scheme than they will be, when that opportunity is provided.

Mr. Hawkins

I welcome the Bill on two main grounds. First, it provides money for the extension of vocational education and, secondly, it provides that vocational teachers will be brought up to the standard of those in other categories in the teaching profession. Senator Baxter was the first to give expression to grave doubts as to the advisability of spending greater sums on vocational education. At the same time, he reminded us that he himself was a member of Cavan County Council and Cavan Vocational Education Committee. Senator Baxter and others very often request us to have more vocationalism, to give more power to local representatives and persons interested in particular sections. Here is one organisation the direction of which is entirely in the hands of those persons who, in the opinion of the elected representatives in the various counties, are the best persons to direct that organisation.

I can safely say, on behalf of the Galway County Council, that there are very few councils in Ireland, if any, as politically minded as the Galway County Council; but when it is a question of appointing a vocational education committee or an agricultural committee, the members are chosen not on a political basis, not because they are supporters of any political party, but because in the opinion of the members of the Galway County Council they are the persons most interested, the persons who will give the greater benefit arising out of their knowledge of the subject, whether it is agriculture or vocational education. The proof of that has been evident in the progress that has been made down the years in vocational education in County Galway. As remote a place as the Aran Islands has been provided quite recently with a very splendid school which I am glad to say is very much appreciated and is well attended by the residents of this particular district.

We must all admit that if you subtract the holidays, Church holidays and so on that young people going to school receive, the period of attendance at the national or primary school, though spread over seven years, does not reach anything more than four years. While they are compelled to go from seven to 14 years of age, a large portion of that time is devoted to recreation rather than education. That is too short a period of time to prepare one for life.

These vocational schools, about which doubts have been expressed on the other side of the House as to the advisability of spending more money on them, are to a large proportion of our young people their universities. It is more important than that as these vocational schools turn out manual workers, while universities provide workers in another field. How are we to make this system successful? It is a new growth and a growth that in the early days had very much opposition and criticism from groups of people who were in other ways interested in education and who felt that this new development should not be encouraged. That might arise from various reasons. It might arise because they had not complete control over the new system; it might arise because they felt it would not be safe to give into the hands of democratic representatives the power of appointing persons to take charge of such an important function as education of any kind.

Worse still, there was opposition from another section, from trade unionism. They feared that if this system was encouraged and developed it would hamper very much the tradition that had grown up in trade unionism of confining certain trades to sons and daughters of those in the trade, thus keeping it within a very close section. That fear was there and I assume it was for the reason—there may be other reasons—that trade unionism was opposed in the main to the development of vocational education. A good deal of that has changed and quite a number of various branches of the trade union organisation go so far now as to make it a condition of the trade that apprentices and trainees attend a vocational school. That is a good development and I hope it will be extended to all sections of trade unionism, to make this vocational education the success we would like it to be and to remove the doubts, if genuine, that Senator Baxter or others may have that the moneys being expended will be expended in a useful way.

The national teacher, the primary teacher, might be encouraged to interest himself in these young people who are in their last year at school, at about 14 years of age, to find out on what line of thought their minds are running. He could encourage them to avail of the vocational system at their disposal. That primary teacher would be doing a great service to the pupil, to the school and to the nation. It is on the national teachers we must depend entirely to encourage young people to avail of the services that are given at such a great cost. Every effort should be made to introduce the best type of person to undergo a course of training to be a teacher in a school of that kind. As Senator Hayes and others have pointed out, they must be people who take pride in their work, particularly in the crafts. I do not entirely agree with Senator Baxter. Where you have a local committee with local knowledge and insight, to give to the people something they would like to claim credit for, their first interest should be to develop local art and craft. The tradition would be there and in that way the better article would be produced.

Senator Fearon made a recommendation to the Minister as to how more moneys might be provided. He said that industries should make a contribution. I think it should not be entirely a question of a financial contribution. You have three headings— the primary school teachers, the trade union organisations and the industrialists. Each can make a big contribution to the success of this scheme. We have already one of the largest organisations in the country, the motor trade organisation, insisting that before a person can get a certificate as a qualified mechanic he must have attended a vocational school and get a certificate there. If we can get further in that direction it would be of great assistance to the country.

Senator Baxter and Senator Ruane criticised the erection of large schools in urban areas and said that many of those trained in those schools are forced to emigrate. We all admit that. I think we might as well be practical on this. Whether it be through force of circumstances or not, this country will have people leaving it every year. If, by an extension of this system of vocational education, we can better equip such people for life, it is right and proper that we should do so. With regard to our live-stock exports and our exports of manufactured articles, we are being appealed to day by day to send out only the best. If certain young people wish to seek their livelihood and their fortune in other countries, I submit that vocational education is one of the best ways by which we can help to equip them for their future life.

Mr. O'Donnell

It must be quite evident to anybody who keeps his eyes open that one of the most popular forms of education in this country is vocational education. One has only to try to get a student enrolled in any one of our technical schools to discover how many thousands of young people and adults—in this city, particularly —are anxious for, and availing of, vocational education.

If I have any criticism at all to make of this Bill it is that we have not enough schools for the number of young persons who are anxious for vocational training. We owe a very great deal to the vocational schools which we already have. I suggest that, in a sense, there should be greater development on technological lines than there is at the moment. Industry is growing apace in this county and, while some of the municipal schools are developing along technological lines, there are other vocational schools which, I understand, do not deal with that aspect of education at all. I am referring, of course, to students of, say, articles in a primary stage of production. Certain technical institutes in this city—particularly the Rathmines Institute—are sponsoring a series of talks by experts who come across once a fortnight to talk about primary articles which become finished product in the course of their trade. That technological knowledge is something which we had not here and for which there is still much scope. Irish industrialists have suggested that the establishment of a technological college here would be advisable. In my view, however, the matter could be better coped with through the medium of the vocational schools which are already in existence.

I am rather surprised to hear anybody deplore the spending of money on this form of education. It is probably the best form of education we could have and I think that with young people it is more popular than either secondary or vocational education. I am indebted to this form of education for whatever little knowledge I may possess.

I should like to see an extension of the teaching of arts and crafts in our vocational schools. Senator Hayes mentioned that point but he meant it in a different way. It seems to me that, ultimately, this country will develop into a large-scale industrial country. We must apply to our raw products our own ideas and the influence of our crafts in relation to our own environment rather than copy trends from outside. We have a tradition in relation to many crafts: basket-weaving, hand-knitting, hand-carving, rug-making and probably we have one of the finest traditions in the world in the matter of bookbinding.

I have seen examples of the work of our schools in which this craft is taught and, to anybody who is a book lover and a collector of books, the work is a thing of joy to have for ever. That art is a sort of natural instinct in quite a number of our people. If our vocational schools can be extended to include the teaching of these native arts and crafts they would form a very sound basis for our industrial development and it would ensure that the influence of our county would be brought to bear on the finished product rather than that we should imitate what is being done in other countries—as, to a certain extent, we are doing at the moment.

I make the plea to the Minister that our students in vocational schools be given an opportunity for a more extensive study of design. To anybody who is interested in Irish industry, it must be obvious that a lot of our designs are imitations of those of other countries, even if it be only to a very mild extent. It is important to our industry that we should be original in our designs. I am thinking now not only of the design of cups and saucers, furniture, wallpaper, and so forth: I am thinking of all the things that surround us in our everyday life on which we could imprint the stamp of our environment. Take, for example, a carpet that is designed in England, or china that is designed in Czechoslovakia. These are two cases in point where I think the study of design in this country could be very important and very beneficial indeed. If our vocational education can be conducted on these lines, any money which is devoted to that purpose will be well spent, and I heartily support it.

Mr. Hartney

I welcome this Bill, as one who has been associated with vocational education in my county since the passing of the original Act.

Vocational schools have served a very useful purpose in the rural areas, apart altogether from what they have done in the larger centres of population.

It has been said on various occasions that the vocational school is the poor man's university. That is all right on the one hand, but, on the other hand, there is the matter of an inferiority complex. Some people did not think that it was the right thing to do to put their children in the local vocational school after leaving the primary school. If a man's neighbour sent his child to a secondary school he felt that he should do likewise for his child. The number of secondary schools has doubled, if not trebled, within the past 20 or 25 years, with the result that there was always a choice of a secondary school in every area.

One must take cognisance of the fact that some people had a certain inferiority complex about sending their sons or daughters to a vocational school immediately after primary school especially if their neighbours were able to send their children to secondary schools. However, as time went on, results proved to such people that there was indeed something in vocational education. It has filled a very big want in the rural areas. Perhaps all of the good it has done cannot yet be seen but a lot of the good results can be seen if we just take the trouble and go to see them.

A vocational school has been operating in my own locality for quite a while. They decided to have a show of work. Many people visited the school just to see what this show of work meant. I may say that they went home very surprised people when they saw what was done in those schools. After that, classes in these schools became more popular because people began to realise what a very useful purpose these schools serve, whether the children attend the day classes or the evening classes.

The position now is that there is an all-round demand for vocational education throughout the country to supplement the primary education. That demand is there and it cannot be denied. In my county, all the domestic economy instructresses, bar one, are pupils of our own schools. That is no mean achievement. In addition, several of our pupils have been appointed under other vocational committees throughout the country. A five-roomed school was built about 20 years ago. It has proved completely inadequate to meet the needs of the locality and another building is now being erected there. It is not so much that it is a big town as that the majority of the pupils come from the rural areas surrounding the district. That shows that the advantages afforded by the rural science teacher have been availed of.

The unfortunate thing is that rural science teachers are in short supply at the moment and I suppose the reason is that conditions under the Department of Agriculture are better and we are unable to induce them to come into the service of vocational education when they can do better under another Department. That is natural. There is also the consideration that work is much free under the Department, because they work so many hours and are then finished, while the rural science teacher has night classes all through the winter and so has not very much time to enjoy the recreation which he considers he is as much entitled to enjoy as people employed in other capacities.

The branches of the I.C.A. are always very helpful in seeing that the domestic economy end is kept up. They use the schools for meeting people and in that way a definite contact is maintained. While that state of affairs continues, vocational education can never fail. If there were any doubts in the minds of people as to what vocational education can do and what its value is likely to be, they should be dispelled by the great interest which Dr. Alfred O'Rahilly of Cork University has taken in it and is still taking in it. He is an authority who will be accepted by everybody, not merely at home but internationally. He has shown his interest in it in relation to the social science courses which have been established.

One of these courses has just been completed; a second is in its second year and another was started this year. If more money were available, there would probably be more of these courses which show the value of this form of education and what it can lead to. It is only in its infancy, but if we get the foundation right by making the best use we can of the child coming out from school, we can, as time goes on, develop more and more the system of instruction for adults which will be to their advantage.

We must remember also that the vocational school has been a very useful means of saving the language, because it has afforded an opportunity to children on leaving school to continue their studies of the language in the night or day classes. The spirit of the Gaelic League permeated all these schools in their origin, because the pioneers who worked in the old days of the Department of Agriculture and Technical Instruction all came over into the service of the vocational committees under what we call the original Act, and in that way the true spirit of the pioneering days of the Gaelic League was brought in. These schools have proved very useful in enabling students to continue the language by making sure of the holding of classes in a great number of centres where timthirí, or persons competent to teach Irish, are employed.

They are employed in most of the schools in my county with very good results and any move for an extension of this work will be well received by everybody because the demand is widespread. We have demands for schools here, there and everywhere else, and, while the Department are most sympathetic and help in every way possible in getting more schools built, I want to point out that there is a greater necessity at the moment for the speeding up of the training of teachers. If this is not done, there will be schools which will be under-staffed, and an under-staffed school cannot be expected to give results. I specially appeal to the Minister to give consideration to those branches of vocational education in which the shortage is most acute.

So far as domestic economy instructresses are concerned, it is very hard to get them trained fast enough. Whether it is that their cooking makes men regard them as good hunting or not, I do not know, but five years is about the average time they stay with most committees. In the case of some of the other teachers, such as the woodwork men, they are barely able to meet the demands of the committees, and there are some committees who are holding on to men in the hope of a new batch of teachers coming out. The Minister cannot get a lot done in a day or a week, I admit, but I make a special appeal to him, as a member of a committee for a number of years, to give serious consideration to the great necessity at the moment for more and more trainees, because, as I say, with the present rapid provision of schools we are going to find some of our schools under-staffed. In Limerick, we have found trouble in keeping our own staffs up, and we have plans on foot for more schools and extensions to existing schools, so that if trainees continue to be turned out at the present rate, we will be facing a position—and the same is true of every other committee—in which we will have schools which are not fully staffed. I know the interest the Minister takes in vocational education, and I do not wish my remarks to be taken as anything but helpful criticism. I hope he will succeed in having trainees ready to jump into the breach when a new school opens in any area of the country.

Mr. McHugh

I congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this Bill, which I consider is long overdue. It will help in some way to enable vocational committees to extend the extremely valuable work they are doing and have been doing for a long number of years. The Minister is, perhaps, in a better position than anyone else to appreciate the work of these committees. He has seen quite recently in my county of Clare a sample of what an energetic committee with an energetic chairman can do. He has seen the opening of an addition to a school in Ennis, and, a few weeks after, an addition to a school in Kilrush. The committee in Clare are hoping to begin work in the near future on a new school in Ennistymon.

Our committee in Clare are working under tremendous handicaps by reason of the size of the county—I think the county is the sixth largest in Éire— and by reason of the poverty of the vast majority of the people in West Clare. They are suffering also from the apathy which existed in the early days of the old technical instruction system. As everybody knows, there was a considerable amount of apathy in various quarters at that time and, in Clare, we suffered a lot from it and we are suffering at present from that early apathy. A lot of work remains to be done in Clare, and, I am sure, will be done, with the co-operation and goodwill of the Minister and his Department.

As the Seanad is aware, the revenue of these vocational committees is derived, first, from the rating authority; secondly, from the grant given by the Department based on the old system of grants in relation to attendance at classes and so on; and thirdly, the revenue comes from slightly less than £ for £ grant given by the Department also. Due entirely to the small grants paid originally in Clare, the Clare Vocational Education Committee have for a long number of years been unable to develop their scheme in any way sufficient to meet the demands of the county. The reason for that is the apathy which existed a good many years ago at the beginning of this scheme. The present committee are is no way whatsoever to be blamed for the apathy which existed long before their time and under which they are suffering now.

In Clare the vocational committee could only develop on a very restricted basis and for a long number of years they were handicapped also by a heavy overdraft in the bank. This overdraft was only wiped out last year. The Committee were seeking sanction to build another school and I understand that the Department refused the committee sanction because of their bad financial position. The committee got over that financial position and the objection by skimping and scraping in various ways. They refused all kinds of applications for classes, part-time teachers and extra teachers. That type of economy is not desirable and has often very bad effects. In this case, however, it had the result of reducing the overdraft to such an extent that now the Department has sanctioned the building of the new school in Ennistymon.

That, of course, creates other problems—problems of maintenance, staffing, heating, lighting and various things like that. At the moment the committee find that they can barely get along with the commitments they now have on their present finances. It is extremely doubtful, unless they get some new source of revenue, if they will be able to run the projected new school in Ennistymon, together with the other schools, on a proper basis, maintain the schools properly and staff them properly.

Under this Bill the revenue can be increased. It may be increased from 9d. in the £ to 15d. in the £. It may be increased if the rating authority are agreeable. In other words, if Clare County Council see fit to sanction the grant to the vocational education committee. But the Clare County Council like every other county council, have their difficulties. They have in the past granted to the vocational education committee the maximum grant but it is extremely doubtful, having regard to the present financial position, if they would see their way entirely to give to the vocational education commitee the maximum grant to which they would be entitled under this Bill.

It is obvious, therefore, that Clare cannot benefit to the maximum extent which the Bill would appear to indicate it may benefit. Many counties with higher valuations than Clare get much higher grants. In fact, I understand that some of these counties have not even yet approached their local rating authority for the maximum rate which they can receive from the local authority. In County Clare we have been on our maximum grant for a number of years. The counties which received the higher grants from the Department and which have not yet asked their rating authority for the maximum rate are the very counties which really do not require vocational education to the extent we do in the West.

For instance, many of the richer counties which receive these higher grants have the benefits of secondary schools. In some of these areas there are seven and eight colleges and some of them enjoy the benefits of university education. It is those counties which really benefit from departmental grants for vocational education. In fact, they do not require these grants as badly as the western counties.

The average rate per acre in Clare is only 8/9. That is the sixth lowest in the entire country. The area covered by the Clare Vocational Education Committee is the sixth largest in the country. It appears obvious to me at any rate—I am sure it must also be obvious to the Minister—that no matter what increase there may be in the ordinary revenue which the committee receives they can never hope, on their present scale of finance, or even with the hope of a larger revenue as a result of the Bill, to deal with all the applications they have already for courses and extra teachers, not to speak of attempting to enlarge the scope of their scheme. They will never be in a position to bring the benefits of vocational education to the entire county.

The county is a long, widespread county. It is very poor and has very bad roads. It is impossible for any county situated as is the County Clare to ever hope to be able to cope with all the applications for courses. The Minister stated here and in the Dáil that the Counties Kerry, Galway, Sligo, Mayo, Donegal and Leitrim will be given increased grants on a certain basis. I cannot understand why the Minister, travelling from Kerry all along the western coast, left out the County Clare. Some case must have been made for leaving the County Clare out. I do not know what that case might be. The case might have been made that the finances of the County Clare were such that it did not require any increased grants but, of course, that is nonsense.

Obviously, a county which is one of the largest in area—and it ranks sixth per acre in valuation—cannot be in any sound financial position to cope with vocational education the demands for which are increasing daily. It is obvious to me, in any case—perhaps it may not be so obvious to the Minister —that if one travels from Kerry to Donegal, through Galway, Sligo and Mayo, there must be some reason why Clare was passed over. I suggest that the Minister should reconsider the matter and include Clare in that list of counties. Funny enough, the valuation per head of the population in Clare is the sixth lowest in the county. It is lower than either Sligo or Longford and yet those counties are included in the list of counties to which the Minister is prepared to give increased grants.

In justice and in fairness, he should include my county in that scheme. Unless Clare Vocational Committee obtain some relief they can never hope to extend or even improve the present system of vocational education which they are operating. I am quite sure the Minister, being a reasonable man and having been appealed to by Senator Ashe, who is also a member of the Clare Vocational Education Committee, will reconsider his decision and include Clare in that list of seven counties which are being given increased grants.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

I welcome this measure very much; in fact, I may say that it is seldom there is a measure before this House for which I have such regard. The reason is that I see in this Bill that power is being given to the vocational committees to raise more money through the rating authority. I am a member of the vocational committee in my own county of Leitrim and that committee has always levied the maximum amount on the rating authority with a view to giving effect to the various schemes they have planned.

Implicit also in the measure is the power being taken by the Minister to make it possible for him to extend the amount of the grant that can be given to committees in order to allow them to give effect to their schemes. Whereas the sting, so to speak, in the Bill is expressly stated, the good side of it is hidden in sub-section (2) of Section 1. I remember making a case to the Minister and to officials of his Department on this question—and I used to refer to it as the 30/- £—that in counties like Leitrim where you had a very low poor law valuation and very high commitments for vocational education, the basic grant of £1 for £1 should be departed from and something in excess of £1 should be given. I do not know if we were the first to make that case but I was not aware at the time that any measure of success had been achieved on the line of a 30/- £, if I might use my own phrase. I am glad to see the Minister is taking power to this effect and that it will be possible in certain cases to go even further than 30/- for every £ provided locally by the rating authority. I understand it cannot exceed £2.

Senator McHugh showed that he had some actual working knowledge of vocational education but I might remind him that the Minister has not excluded Clare from this Bill. If and when there is a case for an increased grant in County Clare, having regard to the prevailing poor law valuation position and having regard to the other facts, I am quite prepared to believe that the Minister will not be unkind in his attitude towards increasing grants in respect of that county because I do know the Minister has his heart and soul in vocational education.

Mr. McHugh

In Clare?

Mr. P. O'Reilly

Generally in this country. This Bill may be regarded as the coming of age of vocational education in Ireland. It is about 21 years since it was put on its present footing and it is grand to see this progressive measure being brought in by the Minister at this time, because it will indicate to people who believe in vocational education that it has passed its growing pains and birth pains.

This legislation will make it possible for counties that have a very low taxable capacity to give the type of service they would like to give. The experience has been that counties like Donegal, Mayo, Leitrim and Sligo, with a very low poor law valuation, cannot possibly, under the present scheme of things, give the same kind of service as, say, a county like Meath. I understand that 1d. in the £ in County Meath would raise £2,400. A 1d. in the £ in County Leitrim will raise £600. Since the vocational committee in Meath could levy the same amount on the rating authority as County Leitrim, it would be quite impossible for a county situated economically like Leitrim to give the same service and spend the same amount of money.

The tragedy is that the counties where vocational education was most needed were the counties that could not raise enough money by way of grant. It is a fact that the counties with the higher poor law valuation are the counties in which you have more institutions for the provision of secondary education, whereas the counties with the lower poor law valuation have not the same volume of secondary educational facilities. Comparisons are odious, but I cannot help making a comparison. I do not know the number of secondary schools in County Meath, but I know there is only one boarding-school for girls in Leitrim, and some day-schools of a secondary type. The position is different in Meath. That would indicate there is greater need for vocational education in Leitrim.

I have not the doubts or fears that have been expressed by some members of the House. This measure will be the coming of age of vocational education, particularly in the counties where it is most needed. I have listened to suggestions as to how it should be planned in certain areas. Senator O'Donnell has dealt with Dublin. I am not an authority on that and could not say whether he is right or not. I am prepared to argue that in rural areas the type of education which should be given is a post-primary course to both boys and girls. If they do not get that in the vocational schools they will not get it anywhere else. In the case of boys it should include manual instruction, building instruction and rural science as technical subjects. In the case of girls it should include domestic science. Without a post-primary general course vocational education would not be fulfilling its proper function in congested districts. If you have not a continuation course, those in congested districts cannot lead as full a life as they should.

Some reference has been made to people leaving this country. The function of vocational education in rural areas should be to teach the boys who remain at home on the farm rural science. It is the sad fact that for a long time people have been leaving the congested districts and there is no real sign of that stopping completely. Even if they do leave, surely vocational education committees have some responsibility to ensure that they have a good education, so that they will not be regarded as hewers of wood and drawers of water in a foreign country? I had some experience outside this country for a short time and I found it sad to see men from one's own area employed in the most menial tasks, because they did not get a chance of education before they left. I am not suggesting we should plan our scheme with a bias in favour of educating people to leave the country. I have not suggested that—lest I be misinterpreted in any way.

On the question of co-operation between the advisory service of the agricultural committees and the rural science courses of the vocational committees, I am satisfied that good work is being done, but I wonder if there is that measure of co-operation there should be. When the Vocational Education Act was passed, the agricultural and technical branches were separated. I often wonder if there is not the same outlook on the part of some people, that they want to behave as in the story of the two mothers who brought the child to Solomon. There is such a vast amount of work to be done in regard to both rural science and vocational education that it would not be proper for anyone to behave as the two mothers who brought the child to Solomon.

There has been some criticism of the cost of vocational education. It is worth while spending money on education so long as we are travelling on the right lines. Has it occurred to anyone to make a comparison between the cost of primary education and vocational education in rural areas? I cannot give figures for any area, but I suggest there should be some ratio between the expenditure on these things in areas where there is no alternative education.

This Bill seems to mark the coming of age of vocational education. That being so, I want to pay a tribute to the officers of the Department who have grown grey in the service of vocational education and who, I suppose, are coming to the stage where they will be retiring. My colleagues in Leitrim and myself know that the officers of the Department were not just mere civil servants, mere officers of the Department; they were much more than that. On all occasions we regarded them as philosopher and friend. I feel I must pay them that tribute now and, in conclusion, I welcome the measure very much.

Mr. Teehan

Our vocational education committee often is in difficulty as to who is in authority. We know we have authority to appoint a teacher and to assign teachers to different schools. On several occasions we found that teachers were not satisfied in their positions. We know that is bad for the committee and for the school. If we have authority to change such a teacher. I should like to have that assurance from the Minister.

We often have trouble about stocktaking. There is a tendency on the part of teachers to shirk the job of stocktaking another teacher's school. If some method could be devised whereby we could get a local teacher or a local stocktaker who is recognised to be a capable man to undertake such work it would be a good thing for the harmony of the schools in general.

Lately, we had a case of teachers being admitted to teach without having the necessary qualifications in Irish. We had some sharp criticism of the Department for allowing that to happen. I understand that the excuse is the lack of teachers but at this stage of our national development I think that every man who is qualified at all should be qualified in Irish as well.

We have just one other little problem and that is the matter of special allowances. We have special classes in Kilkenny for a secretarial diploma and we can find only one local man to do the job. He started off at 8/6 an hour but now he wants 15/-, or so, an hour. I should like to know if the Department has any rules limiting the rate of pay in respect of those special classes. Of course, the majority of the teachers receive the usual rates of pay.

Mr. Moylan

I agree with Senator Hayes that vocational schools should be essentially trade schools directed to the teaching of certain skills. It is not, however, possible to confine them solely to such activities. Somebody mentioned the Danish high schools which were really responsible for the change in economic conditions in Denmark. These schools were not directed towards the exclusive instruction of skills. Rather, they developed a patriotic outlook in the people— an understanding that the country was theirs.

While I agree that we should be concerned mostly with the development of skills in the vocational schools, we can not afford to neglect the other aspect which is the driving force behind the schools. Senator Hayes has been rather surprised at the lack of knowledge amongst townspeople, even village people of conditions in rural Ireland. Maybe Senator Hayes is not himself familiar with these conditions. One of the reasons why people in small towns have very little knowledge of rural life and of conditions on the land is that they were completely cut off from the land. In my young days, every small town—in good land, of course—was surrounded by estates where it was a crime and a misdemeanour if anybody put his foot inside the wall. With the disappearance of the landlord, that disparity was not removed. The farmer who got the land was as much an opponent of any trespass by a man who lived in a village as any landlord.

Mr. Baxter

They were not good at closing gates.

Mr. P. O'Reilly

The gates were all locked.

Mr. Moylan

B'fhéidir. I think that the idea of a folk museum is good. Our people should have a clear grip of the general background of their social history. I believe that it will be useless to try to teach them Irish and to try to create the national background that is necessary for the development of Irish if we cannot provide a folk museum. I should like every support that can be given to be given to such a project. I presume we could have exhibits in the various vocational schools, but I do not think we could compare with Norway or Sweden in our exhibits.

As well as being deprived of land— I always seem to be talking about landlords—our people were deprived of skills. Actually skill of this type was completely urban. I remember the tools that my very near ancestors worked with on farms and in workshops. My God, they were crude and very poor. In my view, it would be wise to collect these types of tools and to exhibit them. We should collect everything connected with our past for a folk museum because the National Museum is not fitted for that purpose and neither is an historical museum. I think it would be a good thing if we developed that suggestion and tried to have something of that nature exhibited in the vocational schools.

Naturally, Senator Hayes is deeply concerned with the welfare of university graduates. He says that we ought to have them as teachers of Irish in our vocational schools. Quite a number of university graduates are teaching under the vocational system but, strangely enough, we have not been able to get university graduates to teach Irish. It is because of the lack of graduates that another system had to be adopted to secure teachers of Irish. I am not satisfied that the standards are often good enough in any sphere but one particular sphere in which we should have graduates is in the teaching of rural science. We have not ever been able to get sufficient teachers.

Some people have expressed doubts about the future. Senator O'Reilly has no doubts. I am not clear of them. Many committees, naturally, have ambitions to build schools and to provide for the demands made on them. There is no good in building a school unless you can provide in it courses which are valuable, considering the district in which the school is located. I do not think it right that, if people demand certain courses, they should not have them—even shorthand and typewriting in the country—but it is something that should not be stressed. Our farmers, except in certain places we know, are quite industrious and have, from their experience, a sound knowledge of their trade, but farming systems have been revolutionised in recent years. There is much greater knowledge of farming available nowadays and I think that the vocational school has a great part to play in the development of agriculture. That is where I have my principal hope.

Our most important economic occupation and activity is the point at which we can have the greatest development and we should try to get it there, but we are not able to get as many rural science teachers as we should, nor are we able to get as many woodwork teachers as we should, because carpenters, even in terms of unemployment, are paid more nowadays than we can afford to pay teachers. In the same way, good metal workers can make a great deal more outside the vocational system than they can make inside it. There is, of course, the settled position and the pension, and it possibly is a far better position than that occupied by the ordinary worker outside, but the man getting more money at present outside is not going to view the future in that fashion. My one fear is that we might try to rush the building of schools without being able to equip them properly with teachers.

It was stated here that vocational teaching is not popular amongst potential teachers, but except, in so far as these teachers are tradesmen who can get better pay outside, I do not find that difficulty. I think we can get sufficient teachers, and, comparatively with other teachers, I think we are dealing reasonably with vocational teachers in regard to pay and general conditions.

Senator Baxter asked if our approach to vocational education is the proper approach. That is a question we should be always asking ourselves. Even though there have been developments and progress in vocational education, if we utilised this Bill to the very fullest, the condition we would then create would reveal the fact that vocational education at present is in its infancy and, therefore, we should not decide right now what the final form of vocational education will be. There must be a certain amount of empiricism and we must learn from experience as we go and be prepared to change.

Senator P. O'Reilly said he is not an authority on certain subjects. I thought he was an authority on every subject. I do not like comparisons between primary education and vocational education. Primary education is doing its job, and any idea of cutting the amount being spent on primary education for the benefit of vocational education, is something to which I would not agree. There is, however, the difficulty that children coming to the vocational school are not as well equipped as they might be to accept the knowledge that can be given to them there and very often that is because of a poor attendance at the primary school. The child is kept away from school one day or two or three days a week on any excuse, and when a parent decides to send the child to the vocational school, the child must immediately develop into a genius. If the groundwork has not been laid in the primary school, the work in the vocational school will not be successful.

Lecture groups were mentioned during the discussion. One of the very valuable developments in the vocational schools is the discussion group —not formal education but a general direction by the teacher and a general discussion of some social problem or some aspect of agriculture. Like the gentleman in France who did not know he was talking prose all his life, many men have a good deal of knowledge unknown to themselves, knowledge which only displays itself when they discuss matters with others. That is an aspect of vocational education which is having very valuable results.

I believe in vocational education. I think we can make a job of it, but we must be watchful in what we are doing and must not be entirely without doubts that everything is right and on the up and up. We must direct vocational education, so far as we can, to the development of skills in and knowledge of the fundamental economic system with which we are associated.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take the remaining stages to-day.

Bill passed through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.