Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 18 Jul 1956

Vol. 46 No. 7

Amendment of Traffic Laws.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Tairgim:—

That having regard to the increasing number of fatal and other serious accidents on the roads Seanad Éireann is of the opinion that amending legislation to deal with the traffic laws is an urgent necessity.

Níl sé ró-fhada ó bhí díospóireacht ar an ábhar seo, agus díospóireacht an-mhait ab ea í agus do thóg a lán Seanadóirí páirt inti. Ina dhiaidh sin, bhí coinne againn le gníomh ón Rialtas chun an cheist seo do réiteach más féidir é do réiteach. Chualamar le déanaí ó Airí Stáit go bhfuil an cheist á scrúdú ag an Rialtas. Is maith go bhfuil an scéal amhlaidh. Tá súil agam nach mbeidh sé ró-fhada sara mbeidh toradh an scrúduithe sin le feicéail. Cuireann gach éinne sa tír suim mhór sa cheist seo, an staid ina bhfuil na bóithre fé láthair agus an dainséar atá ag dul i méid in aghaidh an lae. Nílim á rá gur féidir leis an Rialtas gach rud a dhéanamh chun an cheist do réiteach nó deireadh do chur leis na tionóiscí atá ag tarló ach is féidir leo feabhas a chur ar an scéal ach cur chuige. Tá trí bliana is fiche imithe ó cuireadh Acht na mBóithre tríd an Oireachtas. Is mó cor atá curtha dhe ag an saol ó shoin——

Micheál Ó hAodha

——agus na bóithre díobh.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Is mór mar atá trácht ar na bóithre dulta i méid.

The problem of road traffic and the dangers inherent in it is the outstanding problem that presents itself to the people of this country to-day. Everybody must agree that it transcends in importance all the other problems for which the Government of the day are endeavouring to find a solution. I do not for one moment argue that this problem is easy of solution. It is not so easy as many people seem to think, but at least it is to be expected that measures will be taken in relation to road traffic to bring road traffic laws into line with modern requirements. The motion standing in our names stresses the urgency of the matter. I am aware that since we put it down another motion of a similar nature has been tabled in the Dáil and that a certain limited discussion took place on that motion. As far as I can recollect, it called upon the Government to take comprehensive measures to deal with the ever-increasing problems inherent in the ever-increasing congestion we have on the roads to-day.

The motion standing in our names was tabled for the purpose of bringing the Minister and the Government, if that was necessary, to a realisation of the urgency of taking appropriate measures in relation to road traffic and mechanically propelled vehicles so as to eliminate, or at least reduce, the number of fatal and other accidents on the roads. We have been looking forward over many months to a statement of policy on the part of the Government concerning this problem. We realised that there was extreme urgency about it, because, as I have said, of the appalling increase in the number of accidents. How many of these accidents could be avoided by better and more comprehensive measures on the part of the Government is the question, and I hope that before long we will have an opportunity of discussing this whole matter in detail.

It is now over 12 months since we had a discussion on a motion somewhat similar to this, during the course of which many aspects of the road traffic problem were dealt with. On that motion, we had an intimation from the Minister for Local Government that the problem was being examined at Government level. At least he said it was being examined. We were expecting during the intervening months that the Oireachtas would have been presented with these proposals for legislation because of the urgency of the matter, which, I submit, is even greater than that in relation to certain measures taken by the Government in other fields. For instance, there is a measure before the Dáil dealing with the greyhound industry, which proposes to regularise that industry. I think everybody must admit that there is much greater urgency attached to this problem.

However, recently we have had ministerial statements to the effect that legislative proposals are being put forward to deal with road traffic. I do not recollect if the Minister for Local Government made a similar statement —I think he did—but in any case we have now been informed at ministerial level, by the Minister for Justice, that we may expect proposals for legislation to deal with the road traffic problem in the autumn. If that is the case and the matter is being considered at Government level, then that is a step in the right direction. If legislation dealing with this matter is to be before the Oireachtas or any House of the Oireachtas in the autumn, it is to be taken then that this question of amending the road traffic laws so as to bring them into line with modern requirements and with the increase in traffic on the roads has already been considered by the Government, that is to say, if such amendment is necessary. If it were not so considered, then it would be difficult to expect that we would have an opportunity of discussing these matters in the autumn. However, we have to accept the statement of the Minister for Justice in that regard in all good faith.

As I have said, there is great urgency about this whole matter by reason of the fact that we have much greater traffic on the roads to-day than we have had at any period in our history. I refer, of course, to motor traffic, and it is because of the great increase that has taken place in mechanically propelled vehicles over recent years that we think it necessary to have the Road Traffic Act of 1933 re-examined and suitably amended if necessary so as to provide the necessary safeguards and to have the necessary provisions made, so far as is possible, to regulate the increase in traffic and to prevent the fatal and other accidents that are happening on the roads to-day.

I have some figures here to show what the increase has been over a number of years in motor traffic and to show how it is to be expected that, because of the great increase in those vehicles, the dangers inherent in the problem have also increased. In 1938, the number of mechanically propelled vehicles registered in the State was 69,596 and, in 1955, the number was 226,998. That means that motor traffic has more than trebled in those years.

Added to that, we have the further intensification of the problem by reason of the number of motor cycles operating on the roads to-day. From figures I have seen recently, it is clear that the number of motor cycles has been increasing during recent years at the rate of 100 per cent. per annum —motor cycles of every description and, of course, these figures apply to the whole area under our jurisdiction. When we compare the figures for 1938 with those for 1955, we see how greatly the problem has grown and we see the immensity of the problem that presents itself to us for solution to-day.

The Road Traffic Act that is now operating here is the Road Traffic Act of 1933. That Act was brought in to deal with conditions 23 years ago. While everybody must admit that the Road Traffic Act of 1933 was, in relation to the circumstances of the time, comprehensive and excellently framed, still at the same time it is clear that the circumstances of to-day demand a re-examination of the whole position and a possible amendment of the Act, in an effort to deal with at least the major aspects of this problem which we are dealing with in this motion, the problem of road traffic.

When we had a discussion some 12 months ago on this subject, there were various aspects of the question brought to the notice of the Minister. At that time, I must say, the members of this House took a keen interest in the subject and made some very valuable contributions on the motion we were discussing, over 12 months ago. It is no harm, on this occasion, to refer to some of the matters that were raised at that time.

Reference was made to the advisability of having a driving test for every applicant for a driver's licence. I must confess that at the time I was rather sceptical about the effectiveness of a driving test. However, I have given the matter some further consideration and while a driver's test may not have been regarded as essential or effective in the circumstances operating in this country 23 years ago, when the Road Traffic Act of 1933 was passed, I would say that in to-day's circumstances there is certainly a case for a driving test. That should be one of the matters considered by the Minister for Local Government and by the Government.

The position at present, as Senators know, is that anybody can get a driver's licence, whether that person be capable or incapable. The blind, the lame and the deaf can get a driver's licence and, furthermore, anybody over the age of 17 years can get a driver's licence. I submit that the age of 17 is a rather immature age at which to receive such a licence. I do not think anybody could argue that a boy or girl at the age of 17 could have the same maturity of judgment as a person more advanced in years. My submission is that nobody under the age of 19 should be granted a licence and I am posing that question to the Minister as one of the many things that have to be considered by him when he introduces proposals for legislation to deal with this matter.

The question of road traffic is, to my mind, a two-pronged problem. We have the problem here in the City of Dublin, and we have the problems of the county roads generally. I do not propose to weary the Seanad with any long discussions on the problems in Dublin because there are people here who know much more about them than I do. I will content myself by saying that the traffic in Dublin appears to have become rather chaotic. I know steps have been taken to improve the position, but I am afraid that the improvement, if any, is not very much to speak about. We have of course the traffic lights here in Dublin, and we have a few of them in the other cities, but I find that in many cases in Dublin the traffic lights are being ignored by the motorists.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. P. O'Donnell)

Hear, hear!

Mr. Kissane

And that takes place especially at night——

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Especially by country drivers.

Mr. Kissane

——when it might be expected that the same vigilance would not be around the corner as would be the case during the day. This question of ignoring lights in Dublin, and in the other cities, too, is one which must also engage the attention of the Minister. Of course there are other people involved, other authorities, in this matter of regulating traffic in Dublin. There is also the question of the rights and privileges of the pedestrians to be taken into account and nobody seems to have a clear idea of what the rights of pedestrians are in relation to traffic in Dublin. There is something to be learned in Dublin from what has been done in other countries in relation to the control of traffic. The time has come when the rights of pedestrians should be clearly defined and any infringement of those rights should be dealt with in the appropriate manner.

When I say this, of course, I do not convey the idea that these things can be done overnight, or that it is a simple problem. It is nothing of the kind; it is a most difficult problem, and the more congestion there is on the streets of Dublin, the more difficult to control traffic. It would not be an exaggeration to say that at the present time it is very difficult for the Gardaí authorities to deal with the problem of traffic congestion here in Dublin; it would be almost a physical impossibility for them to deal with it.

I think a feeling of frustration has set in among the authorities in relation to this problem of congestion in Dublin. If you look at the number of prosecutions in Dublin over the past few years, you will see that it indicates a falling off in the vigilance, if I may put it that way, being exercised on the traffic of Dublin these days. I think that is due in great measure to the fact that we do not appear to have a sufficient number of Gardaí in Dublin at the present time as compared with the country. For instance, from statistics I have seen in 1952 there were 78,800 prosecutions; in 1953 there were 75,020 prosecutions; and in 1954— the last year for which I can get figures —there were 58,653 prosecutions by the Garda authorities in Dublin.

Professor Hayes

In Dublin alone?

Mr. Kissane

Yes. In other words, as between 1952 and 1954, there is a difference of 20,000.

Mr. Crosbie

Were they traffic offences?

Mr. Kissane

Yes.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Is that not a good sign?

Mr. Kissane

It would be grand if we could see it as a good sign, but can anybody, looking at the traffic in Dublin to-day, say it is a good sign? As I said, there are many aspects of the traffic question here in Dublin that would be better known to Senators other than myself, and I do not propose to dwell upon the situation here in Dublin at any length.

As to the application of the road traffic regulations to the country generally, there are many things that have to be examined. I have already referred to the question of drivers' licences and I have given it as my opinion that the time has come when the question of a driving test has to be considered; but, as I said, the imposition of such a test will not work the wonders that some people think. At the same time, even if it only made a small contribution to the problem, it would be worth while considering.

There is one suggestion I have in mind in relation to the issuing of drivers' licences, that is, that the major regulations of the road should be printed on the face of the document. That may be regarded as unnecessary or as creating additional expense——

Professor Hayes

Would it not have to be a huge document?

Mr. Kissane

I said the major regulations.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

There is a danger in that that people may think those are the only regulations.

Mr. Kissane

Perhaps, but if you get the general public to observe the major regulations, you will be doing a good day's work. The minor ones could be dealt with in some other way, by constant publicity and so on.

There is another aspect of the question that was referred to here some time ago and that is the advisability or otherwise of checking the speed limit. When I refer to the speed limit, I want to impress upon Senators that this speed limit question has two sides to it. One, you have the speed at which motorists drive along the main roads.

Mr. McGuire

In most cases, they drive too slowly.

Mr. Kissane

There is the question of whether it would be thought advisable or feasible to control that speed for the safety of the public. I am aware, of course, that difficulties arise there. What would be regarded as excessive speed in relation to one type of mechanically propelled vehicle might not be so regarded in relation to other types. The high-powered motor car might not be regarded as going at excessive speed when doing 50 or 60 miles per hour along a straight road, while a small, low-powered car might be regarded as going at excessive speed when doing 40 miles per hour. That is a matter that has to be taken into account, and it is not an easy matter; but I am impressing on the Minister that it is a matter that must be considered.

Above all, the other side of this question must be considered and considered without fail—that is the speed at which motorists are to be allowed to drive in built-up areas. At the present time in most places some motorists seem to fly in and out of built-up areas at whatever speed they like. When I refer to built-up areas, I am not confining myself to cities and sizable towns; I have also in mind villages. Every village in this country should be regarded as a built-up area. I recommend to the Minister that there should be a definite speed limit in built-up areas, say, within a radius of about one mile of the centre of the town or village, as the case may be. That is a matter to which the Minister must give careful consideration when these proposals for the better regulation of traffic on the roads are being considered.

There is also the question of traffic indicators or "trafficators", whatever one likes to call them. I referred briefly on one occasion to that matter. I think it should be made compulsory for every motorist to have a proper traffic indicator attached to his vehicle. We have three methods of traffic communication at the present time. We have the old time-honoured method of putting out one's hand, a method which is, to my mind, out-moded in present day circumstances. Then we have the traffic indicator on both sides of the vehicle and now we have the red light on the rear of the vehicle. Traffic indication is a matter that requires some more careful consideration, because, in my view, there are to-day a good many people who do not appreciate or understand what these red lights are for. These are matters upon which the people should be educated, especially the motoring public. As some of us said on a former occasion here, no matter what regulations are brought in and no matter what legislation we pass, unless the responsible authorities keep the regulations constantly before the public mind, people are liable to forget them.

Some time ago, reference was made to a handbook dealing with the road traffic code. It emerged during the course of the discussion here that many people, even many people in this Seanad, did not realise that there was such a handbook in existence. I mention that as an illustration of the insufficient publicity given to these regulations. I submit that the more publicity there is and the more these matters are brought home to the public mind, the better it will be for the safety and welfare of the users of our roads, both motorists and pedestrians.

The problem of the drunken driver must get special attention in any new traffic legislation. Everybody knows that the drunken driver is a menace to himself and to everybody else. There is a section of the 1953 Act which deals with drivers who drive while under the influence of drink, which I think requires re-examination and, possibly, amendment. The phraseology in it appears to be rather rigid. The words used are that the "person is incapable of exercising effective control." The question arises as to what constitutes effective control, as to what interpretation should be put on these words. Remember, it would be quite possible for a driver to have physical mental control, but to be lacking in fine judgment, in the finesse necessary to make a split second decision. That is an aspect which must be examined in order to deal effectively with the problem of the drunken driver.

There is another aspect of road traffic on which I should like to lay special emphasis. I refer to the situation in which a motorist emerges from a side road on to a main road without looking to left or right. That type of menace has been in evidence in recent times, to my own knowledge. These people emerge headlong, as it were, from side roads. In my opinion, that is a criminal offence, in many ways more criminal perhaps than the offence committed by the drunken driver, because the person who emerges from a side road does so with a full realisation of the seriousness of his action. In any future legislation, we should take special cognisance of the person who shows such disregard for the lives and the safety of the public on our main roads that he emerges headlong, as I said, and does not care what is approaching either on his right or his left side. These drivers are few, I admit, but very dangerous.

I suggest that any person convicted of such an offence should be deprived of his licence for ever. He is not fit to be in charge of a mechanically propelled vehicle. The penalties attaching to drunken driving are not sufficiently heavy to deter such drivers at the moment, and I think they should be re-examined. Where a person is convicted of driving a vehicle without being capable of exercising effective control because of having consumed too much alcoholic liquor, he is deprived of his licence for a period of not less than 12 months, plus any fine which may be imposed. That is the minimum penalty. Very often, I think, the minimum punishment is meted out. I submit that the question of what would be the appropriate punishment for people in that category of crime, because a crime it is, must be re-examined by the Minister and the Government in the light of present-day traffic.

I do not want to hold up the Seanad very long on this question, although I hold it is the most important question we could have under discussion here. It is a question on which we could all hold discourse for the next week. However, action speaks louder than words and if we were to be talking for the next month, it would be no use if we had not got an assurance from the Minister, on behalf of the Government, that the appropriate measures dealing with the matter would be no longer delayed.

There is also in relation to this question of road traffic, the menace of wandering animals on the road. I do not know whether it would be appropriate to deal with a matter of that kind in amending legislation, but it is a problem that exists. On the roads of the country to-day, there seems to be less vigilance in regard to wandering animals. These wandering animals, on the main road, or on any road, can be a big menace to any traffic. While we may succeed in drafting the appropriate rules and regulations to govern this matter of road traffic, we must make sure, at the same time, that these regulations are carried out. I am not saying, of course, that the regulations are not being carried out. They are, but in that instance, in the case of wandering animals, there seems to be a relaxation in vigilance. That should not be, because wandering animals present a very serious problem to the users of the road.

I have dwelt at length on this matter—probably at too great a length —but it is, as I said at the outset, a matter in which the people of this country are greatly interested. There has been much controversy, in the public Press and elsewhere, as to what appropriate measures should be taken to safeguard, as much as possible, the lives of people on the road, both the motorists themselves and the general public.

The Minister has given us an indication that we can look forward to appropriate proposals to deal with this most important matter. Before long, therefore, we hope to have an opportunity of further discussing the whole question of road traffic. When the existing regulations, the regulations under which motorists operate, came into existence, nobody foresaw the enormous increase in road traffic that was to take place. The rules that were brought in in those days are now out-moded. The time has come when we should make sure that the uncertainty that exists as regards the road traffic regulations is removed. Any effort to bring discipline to traffic on our roads would be a step in the right direction. A careful examination is needed for the job and definite instructions to the public as to how they are to observe the rules of the road are needed.

Furthermore, together with introducing and passing the necessary regulations, I think it is incumbent on the Government and the authorities to bring home to the people by every method the gravity and seriousness of this whole problem. It is a life and death problem which has to be solved by us, and we should give it, as I have said, our most urgent attention. I hope that the Minister will bear in mind what has been said here, and what has been said on another occasion here, and that, when the Dáil and Seanad reassemble after the summer recess, we shall have the opportunity we have been looking forward to of dealing with this problem in legislative form, or in whatever form the Minister and the Government think necessary.

Mr. Cogan

I do not think that the Seanad has any need to offer any apology to anybody for proceeding to deal with this problem twice in the lifetime of the existing Parliament. The matter is so important from the point of view of preserving human life that no amount of attention to it could be regarded as excessive. I intend to offer a few points in support of the case which has been so ably made by Senator Kissane. Our emphasis should, in the main, be not so much upon the chaos or confusion that may be caused by the increase in road traffic as upon the number of fatalities which are daily occurring. What is happening is little short of wholesale slaughter of human beings, and I think it is absolutely essential that well-considered and well-framed legislation should be enacted as soon as possible to cope with this problem.

It is hardly necessary for any member of this House to stress the urgency of such legislation. We might, perhaps, be doing a more useful service if we were to indicate in some way how we think the problem might be tackled and solved. It will be recognised that this problem which has arisen is due, in the main, to the advance of mechanical and engineering science and invention, and if I were to make a suggestion at the outset it would be that, since the manufacturers of cars have provided us with this modern amenity and means of destruction, they should, in the first instance, be called upon to provide certain safety devices. It is little over half a century since it was not permissible to drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on the public road, unless you were preceded by a gentleman carrying a red flag. Times have moved swiftly since then, and the gentleman carrying a red flag would require to move very swiftly if he were to keep in front of a mechanically propelled vehicle at the present time. The question is: have the manufacturers of cars that have so rapidly advanced in speed and power provided all the safety measures which it is possible for modern invention and science to provide. I believe they have not, and that more effective improvements should be introduced into the design and mechanism of cars in the first instance, with a view to making them more safe.

I am indebted to the writer of an article recently in the Sunday Independent for a suggestion he made that an appliance invented in Germany, which I understand is known as the tachtograph, should be an essential part of the equipment of every car. As I understand it, the effect of installing such an appliance on a car would be to keep an accurate record of time, and of the speed at which the car travels in conjunction with that time; in other words, from the moment this appliance is installed in a car it is possible for anyone looking at the record in the appliance to know at what speed that car travelled at any given time, or whether it was in motion or not. Thus, in the event of an accident, a Garda or anybody else would simply examine this record and would know at what speed the car was travelling at the time of the accident, and would know also, if necessary, the speed at which it travelled for the entire journey prior to the accident.

We all know that you could have a serious accident, say, at X Cross 100 miles from Dublin. Evidence could be given that a person involved in the accident left Dublin three hours before, and there would be a prima facie case that he had been travelling at a not excessive speed; but with this appliance there would be a record which might prove that that man had travelled at 60, 70 or 80 miles per hour for one hour, that the car had been stationary, perhaps, for another hour or an hour and a half, and that the remaining portion of the journey up to the time of the accident had been performed at a very high speed. Hence with this mechanical appliance it would be possible to ascertain whether the person involved was to a considerable extent blameworthy or not.

Anybody who wished to drive occasionally at an excessive speed, or to drive carelessly, would find this appliance in his car a rather embarrassing acquisition, but at the same time its very existence as a portion of the mechanism of the car would be a sort of warning to the driver to exercise extreme care. He would know that there would at least be a record of the speed at which he was travelling at the time of the accident, and prior to it. That is very important, because in evidence given in the courts very rarely do we find that a person involved in an accident had been travelling at more than 20 or 25 miles an hour. The introduction of an appliance like this—and according to the writer of this article it has been perfected to a considerable extent in Germany—would go a long way towards safeguarding the lives of road users, and would also be a safeguard for the driver of the car himself.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 7 p.m.

Mr. Cogan

Before the adjournment, I was dealing with the advisability of making it compulsory to have every car fitted with a gadget such as I suggested, namely, the tachtograph. The effect of that would be to ensure that an actual record would be kept of the speed at which the car had travelled from the time the instrument was installed and it would give a considerable amount of evidence in the event of there being a prosecution following an accident. It would also have a psychological effect, if you like, upon the driver in making him more careful.

I think it will be recognised that the main causes of accidents, as far as human error is concerned, come under the two headings of aggressiveness and carelessness. There are many drivers on the roads who consider that they, and they alone, have the right of the public roads and that nobody else has any right to use them. They seem to take the view that every other road user is either stupid or incompetent and that they, and they only, are the efficient drivers on the roads. It is that aggressiveness on the part of many drivers of vehicles that is the frequent cause of accidents.

There is the type of man who sees a car moving slowly in front of him and who insists that, regardless of the conditions of the road or the traffic, he must pass that car, and who, if he sees a car moving quickly ahead of him, is overcome with the idea of challenging it and passing it out. It is this aggressiveness on the part of so many motorists that causes so many accidents, and this condition is often aggravated by a slight injection, if you like, of alcohol into the system. There are many people who may be very gentle and unassuming individuals when quite sober, but as soon as they come under the influence of drink, even to a limited extent, they become very aggressive. They are inclined often to feel that they can do everything and anything, including the driving of motor vehicles, better than anybody else.

I believe that so far as drink and driving are concerned, they must be separated. The person who drinks should not drive and the person who drives should not drink. I am not so anxious to see excessive and savage penalties imposed on people of that type as I am concerned that the law should be tightened up in such a way that there would be a more frequent check upon motor traffic and drivers, particularly at night, to ensure that it will be unlikely that anybody attempting to drive a vehicle while drunk will escape detection. If that were done, it would curb this tendency to a very great extent. It would mean perhaps somewhat greater activity on the part of the Gardaí in regard to the holding up of traffic, particularly at night time, because it is very frequently in the later part of the day that people driving cars on the roads are those who have taken drink.

That is a measure that is necessary and desirable and it would probably be more effective than any increase in the penalties. If most drivers recognise that, if they drive at night time under the influence of drink, they will be extremely likely to be detected, they will refrain from doing so. In many cases, drunkenness is not detected until there is an accident and then, very frequently, it is too late.

As I say, arrogance and aggressiveness are causes of accidents and carelessness, perhaps, is a great cause. It is, perhaps, a more human cause because everybody errs in that respect at some time or other in the course of driving. There is no motorist who could say he never made a mistake when driving. Unfortunately some people make their first and last mistake at the same time, when it proves to be a fatal one. The only safeguard against human error is to impress strongly upon drivers the danger that they are running, but there can never be a safeguard against human error. Some time ago there was a young man sent out to drop a hydrogen bomb on a certain place. He forgot to press the button until he had passed over the target and I am sure his face was very red when he came back. It is conceivable that any person driving a car will make some error of judgment, which in some cases may prove fatal for himself or somebody else. Every straight stretch of road presents just as much danger as a winding road. On a straight stretch there may be gateways or laneways which are invisible to drivers and out of which somebody or something may emerge. It may be a child, or a cow coming from a field, and it may be the cause of a fatal accident and it is not always a reckless driver who is involved. The only safeguards are eternal vigilance on the part of the driver, and extreme mechanical efficiency in the vehicle.

I think it was in 1947, when Deputy Childers was in charge of this section of the Department of Local Government, that a publicity campaign was initiated, showing the danger associated with motoring and trying to bring home how difficult it is to avoid an accident in a vehicle moving at a fast speed, and the amount of care required in order to safeguard life and property. At that time, there was a slogan adopted which was printed on every car and which said—"I am taking care; won't you?" I remember going into a garage at that time and seeing the wreck of a small car, which was completely battered beyond recognition. There was only one pane of glass intact in the car and that was the rear window and on it was the slogan: "I am taking care; won't you?"

No matter what precautions are taken, there are always grave risks involved for fast moving traffic on a public road. We have got to recognise that the roads are open to everyone—to the child in the perambulator, to the lame and the blind, to cyclists and pedestrians and to everyone who wishes to use them. On these roads, we have vehicles moving at speeds up to 60 or 70 miles per hour. In that situation, there is bound to be a risk and there is no use in denying that that risk is there. The main problem of legislation should be to bring home to all users of the road the gravity of those risks. I am not a believer in slogans and the slogan to which I have referred was completely ineffective. If there was any slogan to be clearly engraven upon a motor vehicle, it would be the worlds of the fifth commandment.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Or a picture of a coffin.

Mr. Cogan

Yes, a picture of a coffin or the words of the fifth commandment: "Thou shalt not kill." As the Minister remarks, people might be more influenced by what might happen to themselves than by what might happen to somebody else. That is human nature and it must be brought home very clearly that the danger is there. Every day one reads of fatal accidents, head-on collisions, almost always involving a loss of life. Mechanical appliances which would make vehicles safer should be compulsorily fitted, if and when they are proved to be effective. It might be desirable to have a compulsory check on the mechanical fitness of cars periodically. A car, for instance, after running a certain distance should be required to have a certificate to the effect that the car had been examined and was fit. It might be difficult to have that carried out, but possibly it could be done.

It would appear desirable to have a driving test, but at the same time it will be recognised that it could not be completely effective. If an investigation were carried out in regard to accidents that have occurred over the past two or three years, it would be found that many of the persons involved were experienced and capable drivers. They made the one mistake that proved to be a fatal one. At the same time, there would seem to be a case for some kind of check on the fitness of drivers. A driving test would have some good results. For instance, it might be necessary to have a fairly stiff test in regard to motor cyclists. Powerful motor cycles are extremely dangerous vehicles on the public roads and any person who undertakes to drive one, should have evidence of fitness.

A driving test might also have the effect of showing people who are starting to drive some of the dangers they are likely to encounter. The fact of having to undergo a test, in which they might be shown the risks and dangers they are likely to meet and also their own shortcomings, might make a lasting impression upon them, and that, in itself, might be useful. There should also be a more severe test for those who use motor cycles, particularly motor cycles of high power, capable of considerable speed. Motor cyclists should be required to wear a crash helmet in order to afford themselves at least some protection. It is terrible to see young people exposing themselves to the grave risks involved in motor cycling at considerable speed.

It will be realised we are dealing with a difficult problem, and I am sure, if it is the Minister's function to introduce legislation dealing with this problem, he will have the sympathy and support of all sections of this House. Everybody will be anxious to ensure that legislation will be effective and that we will not have a recurrence of these fatal accidents. I should like to emphasise that, if it has not already been done, no time should be lost in having a close investigation of all the circumstances leading up to some of those terrible fatal accidents that have occurred. I know that in most cases these accidents are the subject of judicial inquiry, both from the point of view of bringing criminal charges and from the point of view of civil action; but I think, in addition to that, the Guards should make a further investigation, with a view of ascertaining all the circumstances, the condition of the vehicles, the experience of the drivers and so on.

It very often happens that when three or four people are travelling in a car, there may be a change of driver, and the wheel may be handed over to a person of very little experience. That is one of the things that could be checked on. There is also the matter of the mechanical condition of the vehicle and the condition of the roads. It comes within the Minister's jurisdiction to see how far it is possible to make the roads safer. I believe that the mere removal of bends is not calculated to make the roads very much safer, but the removal of fences which obscure the view of a road is absolutely essential.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

And compelling the farmers to cut their hedges.

Mr. Cogan

I would go further than that. As the Minister knows, in very many rural areas, there is a very high earth fence or stone wall which completely obscures the view of the road, and the mere cutting of the hedge alone would not be sufficient. It might be necessary also to remove portion of the earth fence and replace it by wire. I know that may detract a little from the beauty of the countryside, but at the same time it is something which is absolutely essential. There is no need to alter the surface of the road or the lay-out of the road, but simply to remove everything that obscures the view. It will cost a fairly considerable amount of money to do this, but it can be undertaken gradually. The more dangerous points should be dealt with. There is a tendency on the part of engineers to by-pass the dangerous turns by a complete reconstruction of the road.

An Cathaoirleach

Let us not get into a debate on roads. They are not involved in the motion.

Mr. Cogan

It would be sufficient to remove obstructions in order to open up a view for the motorist. This House will give the Minister its best wishes, if he goes ahead with this. It is the urgent wish of all Senators that this legislation should be speeded up and that no time should be wasted in having at least some measures adopted. It may not be possible to draft a Bill that would cover every aspect of the question, but it is desirable to go ahead with whatever suggestions are feasible at the present time.

Professor Hayes

I am opposed to this motion. I am opposed to the idea of more legislation. It is not more laws or more regulations we need, but more enforcement of the existing laws and regulations. I think the Senators who proposed and seconded this motion are under a misapprehension in regard to the powers of Parliament. Senator Kissane compared the urgency of the Road Traffic Bill with that of the Greyhound Industry Bill. I yield to nobody in my ignorance of the greyhound industry, but it is true you can regulate it by an Act of Parliament. You cannot regulate traffic on the roads by an Act of the Oireachtas. The sooner we get into our minds what the real problem is, the better.

We discussed this matter before a little more than a year ago. I do not want to go over all I said on that occasion. Surely it is clear that we do not require more regulations or more laws until we can be sure that the laws and regulations we have are capable of being enforced? Senator Kissane quoted a figure of 58,000 prosecutions in Dublin in 1954, but to the ordinary person going through the streets of Dublin or driving around Dublin it seems quite clear that the ordinary law is not being observed.

Let me give a few examples. Lights on bicycles are the exception, not the rule. Lights on cars in accordance with the law are frequently wrong. You meet a car coming towards you with one light or, worse still, you meet a car coming towards you with one light only on the left-hand side. That is most deceptive and dangerous. All over Dublin City, all cyclists and a great many motorists get on the pedestrian crossing; and the common thing for buses, cars and cyclists now is to observe the amber light on the righthand side and cross against the red light opposite. It is done constantly and it is done sometimes in the presence of members of the Garda Síochána.

Wherever there is an arrow showing you can filter, all cyclists filter at all times, whether the arrow is green or not. Cars frequently drive three abreast; and, as the Minister told us on the last occasion here—we listened to a lot of this before—there is such a thing as a major and minor road and a regulation that you have to give way to traffic on your right. If that is so, then nobody in Dublin gives way to traffic on the right. It simply is not done. Certainly in the areas I know, where I come down and find traffic on my left, I always give way to it because I have learned by bitter experience there is no such regulation enforced in Dublin as giving way to traffic on one's right.

We have no need of new regulations; what we have need of is a stringent enforcement of the present regulations. Road signs are a complete waste of money. I stood for half-an-hour near my own home at a big sign erected at the expense of Dublin County Council saying: "Slow". The effect of that sign on every motorist, every heavilyladen lorry and every bus driver was that they blew their horns vigorously and accelerated. There have been frequent accidents on Rathgar Road, just outside Rathgar Catholic Church. There is a "winking willie" there now. Stand there any day and see what happens: the motorist blows his horn and accelerated. There is no quarter for pedestrians.

Everything is grand when there is a Guard on traffic duty. Where Guards are engaged on traffic duty or in getting children coming out of school safely across a road, they are simply magnificent. It would appear to the ordinary observer, however, that the Guard who is not on traffic duty is of set purpose neutral about traffic. That seems to be the position in Dublin, at any rate. I do not know what the position is in the country. The Guard who is not on traffic duty in Dublin seems to take no interest whatsoever in traffic.

There is a complete misconception of the problem in the idea that, if one makes more regulations, one is doing something to remedy the position. One can make quite a good comparison between this problem of traffic offences and sin; they seem to be in people's nature. Now the Commandments did not remedy sin and more regulations will not remedy traffic offences. One must persuade people to act with common courtesy. In that regard, it seems to me that cyclists and motorists are more in need of instruction than are school-children. The alternative to that is to take the erring minority and punish them very severely.

Until we get a proper enforcement of the present law, we should not make any further law. There is one great difficulty in this matter. The Minister is responsible for the regulations and the law, but he has no responsibility for their enforcement. The ordinary person does not know under which thimble the pea is, whether under the Department of Local Government thimble or the Department of Justice thimble. One Minister should be made definitely responsible for all aspects of traffic. If we are to make further regulations, there are only two things that strike me as urgent. One is the prohibition of the use of the motor horn. I have had occasion since the beginning of July to pass through O'Connell Street between 5 o'clock and 5.30 every evening; motorists get through O'Connell Street at that time by blowing their horns. They blow their horns when there is no necessity whatsoever to blow them. Paris was cited as an example of where silence was enforced and there have been no further accidents. That is one change I would welcome here.

Not so very long ago, we discussed the abolition of capital punishment. Irrespective of whether or not there is abolition of the death penalty, some amendments of the law is necessary in relation to murder. I am tempted to say that we ought to have an amendment of the law to enable a motorist who is drunk in charge of a car, and a death results, to be tried for murder. That may be very drastic, but it might be worth trying. The position, as one reads it in the newspapers, is quite simple: a man in a motor car is much more dangerous than a man with a revolver in his pocket, because the man who has the revolver has to draw it, cock it and fire it. But the motorist has a lethal weapon in his hands all the time. We have had examples of people who went from pub to pub and hotel to hotel, overloaded their cars and subsequently killed people, either their own passengers or others, and got off with what appeared to the ordinary observer to be a comparatively light sentence.

I wonder whether the ingenuity of the legal advisers to the Government could not be brought to bear on that situation. The drunken motorist certainly has the mens rea, as the lawyers say. He has the guilty mind because he knows what traffic is; he knows the weapon he has in his hands and he goes ahead and gets drunk and does damage. The suggestion I make might be worth considering. The notion that the more regulations you make and the more laws you pass, the more you tend to solve this problem, seems to be founded upon a foolish idea of what Parliaments and Government can do. Unless we can reach a situation wherein we can enforce the present law and make that law clear to everybody, there is no good whatsoever in having more law. I think the Minister, if I am not mistaken, on the last occasion on which we discussed this matter, was inclined to take that view. I urge upon Senator Kissane that what we really requires is not more rules and regulations, but a more straingent enforcement of the rules and regulations already there.

Mr. O'Gorman

The gravity of this problem is causing very serious concern to many people. Senator Hayes appears to think that the situation could be met by a rigid enforcement of the present rules and regulations. I am afraid I must disagree with him in that, because, as far as I know, the laws are not enforced anywhere at the moment. If we are to preserve the lives of our people, it is incumbent on us to do something to prove to the people that we are really behind them in this all too serious matter. Our only object is to preserve human life on our roads.

Laws are passed. Are they being enforced? Are they being observed? It is apparent to everyone that roads are a death trap at the moment. The notices at the entry to towns and villages: "Slow Down" are just a joke. Senator Hayes referred to the fact that it only seems to have the effect of making motorists accelerate. We must realise that the speed merchant, of whom we have a considerable number at the moment, takes no notice of that "drive slowly".

I should like to have a speed limit rigidly enforced in every town and village. I am a member of a local authority. When this matter is mentioned, we are told it is a matter for the Department of Local Government. When one goes to a Local Government, one is told that it is for the local authority to decide and Local Government will agree. Then we find ourselves entangled with the Department of Justice in the enforcement of them. What I would like to see, in every town and village in Ireland, where the people are not fully conversant with traffic regulations and the observation of speed limits, and white lines and all the rest, is a speed limit of 25 miles an hour. In my own part of East Cork, one sees cars flying down to the seaside resorts like Youghal, Bally-cotton and Garryvoe at speeds of from 60 to 70 miles an hour.

The night before last, I had occasion to attend a meeting in Midleton. I am a fairly good judge of the speed of a car and I saw a car flying down the main street of that town at a minimum speed of from 60 to 65 miles an hour. If any child or adult had crossed the street while that car was passing, he would have been hurled into eternity. There is no notice taken of speed limit through the country towns of this country and these people are turning the towns and villages into Brooklands. In Youghal, where the streets are very narrow, only five or six yards wide, I have seen cars fly through at 50 miles an hour. The ordinary men and women of the country are not reared up in that atmosphere of speed and, until people are killed, and left in mangled masses on the streets, people will not realise the seriousness and gravity of the matter.

There are a few points which other speakers have impressed on the Minister. There is the question of driving tests. I am not a mechanic, and I know nothing about a car beyond changing a wheel, but I do know how to drive a car carefully. I do think it is far too easy for anybody to walk in and get a licence to drive a car. All a person has to do is to walk into the local taxation officer, hand over the money, sign up and get the licence. I do not think that is good enough. I think it is necessary for us to be much more rigid in dealing with applications for licences.

Senator Kissane mentioned the number of cars in the country now as compared with 1938, and it is truly amazing. In 1938, the number of mechanically propelled vehicles in the country was 65,596; in 1955, we had 226,998. That is a good sign of the prosperity of the country in that we have practically quadrupled the number of these motor vehicles, but we have got to realise that we are living in a different age. Every one of us must realise that a very serious obligation is imposed on us. If we make the laws and if they are carried out by the Department of Justice and by the people, it will be easy to reduce the present rate of accidents and deaths.

I think a duty falls on us to see that the rules and regulations are enforced. It is unfair to people who drive carefully that any ordinary man or woman can get a licence merely by applying to the local taxation officer. I have asked the Minister to make an Order that there should be a speed limit for motorists, passing through our towns and villages, of 25 miles an hour. I often shiver when I see cars flying through my own town. Within the past day or two, I saw a car passing up the street and almost at the same time a young child was crossing the street. If the car had passed through the street ten seconds before it did, that child would be in eternity to-day. However, the driver was driving at about 12 miles an hour and he was able to pull up in a distance of three or four yards. The speeds at which some of the road hogs we have flying around the country to-day drive their cars are murderous.

There is another point I should like to mention to the Minister. We had a serious accident in my part of the country within the past 12 months in which a man returning home after his day's work, crashed into a lorry. The man was a strict teetotaller and was accompanied by his wife. What I think was really responsible for the accident was that the man misjudged his distance from the lorry. These lorries have two lights in front or by the side of the engine. You can have a big six ton truck which just out about three feet on to the roadway at each side of the lights. A motorist, coming along, and judging the distance between his car and the approaching vehicle can be easily misled by the position of these lights. The man never realised the bulk of the lorry and he crashed into the front of it and was killed instantly. I am of the opinion that the lights on a big vehicle such as that should be at the outermost point at each side of the front of the vehicle.

Our roads were made 50, or 60 or 100 years ago and were never made to carry these six or eight ton trucks. The accident I have referred to took place on what is known as the Carrigrohane straight outside Cork. That man would be alive to-day if he could have taken his distance from the approaching truck, if the lights of that truck had been placed at the outermost point on each side. I recommend that point to the Minister and it would not be any harm if he brought it to the notice of the various people who build trucks in this country.

There is another serious matter which is becoming more common every day. That is the habit of the two cyclists being on the one bicycle.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

You mean a tandem?

Mr. O'Gorman

No. I mean two people on a bicycle made for one. It used to be the case of a bicycle built for two. It is a habit growing up amongst boys and girls of 15 and 16 years of age for the lighter person to sit between the rider of the bicycle and the handle bars. That is a matter that should be brought to the notice of the Garda authorities and its prohibition should be enforced rigidly. Only last night, I was passing through a narrow part of the street when a bicycle ridden by two people, as I have described it, came along. I blew my horn and this young fellow started wriggling his bicycle around like an eel. If I had crashed into him, or if he had crashed into me, the motorist is always in the wrong. These people are a very serious danger at the moment.

Another thing I notice is that you often have three and four cyclists in a row. If you give them a toot of your motor horn when you are going along, one of them will give you as smart a signal as a Civic Guard, but he will not fall into line behind the others.

Senator Cogan referred a while ago to the slogan "If you drink, don't drive and if you drive, don't drink." That is borne very forcibly on those of us who come along up Molesworth Street approaching Leinster House, where you will see it on one of the buildings.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I hope it does not refer to Leinster House.

Mr. O'Gorman

No; it would not happen here. We are all perfect. The authorities and the Government will have to take very serious notice of the fact that the roads of Ireland to-day are veritable death traps. There seems to be no fair play or reciprocity of kindness. If you wave on a driver who is travelling fast, he will show no consideration to you or to anybody else. In passing from Cork to Youghal I cruise at from 40 to 45 miles an hour, and often I have seen a driver passing me at 60 miles an hour, and even then when he saw another coming around a corner, he just skimmed him by a about a foot and was gone before I could say "Jack Robinson".

As Senator Hayes has said, the enforcement of the existing law is necessary. Throughout the country, people are completely oblivious of the existing Orders, and the Minister, in liaison with the Department of Justice, should endeavour to secure rigid enforcement of the rules. We, by calling for that, can then feel that we have done our part to help to minimise or obviate the gravity of the very serious situation which exists to-day, when traffic is three or four times as great as it was in 1938. Most people who drive, including myself, hate driving, except in nice quiet by-ways where there is no danger. The main roads of Ireland in any part of the country are so dangerous that when you are going out in the morning, anybody you are leaving behind will tell you: "Be very careful." This morning, the last piece of advice I got from my own people as I was leaving for Dublin was: "Be very careful, Paddy. You know the cars."

Mr. P. O'Donnell

That is a good slogan to pass on to all travellers.

Mr. O'Gorman

I agree. I would respectfully ask the Minister to have the traffic regulations rigidly enforced. By doing that, we will preserve many lives that would be a benefit to the Ireland of the future.

Mr. Burke

I had the honour of proposing and supporting the motions brought before the Seanad during the last three or four years dealing with this all-important subject. One of the things we asked for was that a simple booklet would be produced similar to the little highway code produced in Britain. When, with the President of the Safety First Association, we visited the Department early this year, we were given an undertaking, I understand, that this booklet, was almost in the hands of the printers.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It is with the printers.

Mr. Burke

I should like to ask the Minister to ask the printers if they could deliver it and have it circulated before the August bank holiday period, because if every motorist were asked on the radio, in the Press and in the churches and schools to read such a booklet, it would help enormously in obviating some of the accidents which are taking place in such large numbers on our roads. There are only about 30 pages in this little booklet, and it contains a wonderful amount of information which one should read and reread.

There is another matter which I want to raise on a motion of this kind. I believe that the instructions which are given to police in this country are not adequate to cover what is happening on the roads.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am not responsible for that.

Mr. Burke

I know that the Minister for Local Government is not responsible, but we have an opportunity and responsibility of raising it. I went to a funeral of an ex-Minister of State last Sunday and on the way back from that funeral, on four occasion, we were in imminent danger of our lives. There happened to be a match about half way home from that funeral, and the people were in such a hurry to get to that match that they were almost homicidal. I made inquiries afterwards and someone said that the lads were out, sitting in the back of the cars, and saying: "Drive on, Paddy; we want to get to the match."

Gardaí, uniformed or otherwise, should be sent out each time there is a football match, a race-meeting, a dog-meeting or whatever other meeting people are in a hurry to get to or from, and should pick up a dozen people or so and make an example of them. If the Guards are not able to deal with them in a proper manner, there should be a mobile district justice going around. I understand that you cannot in this country convict a person except in a court of summary jurisdiction.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Thank God.

Mr. Burke

Yes, sir; but I suggest that may be there would be a mobile district justice, and if there should be 30 or 40 or 50 offenders, they could be tried and dealt with on the spot. People say that such cases are so numerous that they would hold up the whole machinery of the ordinary courts if they were prosecuted there. You can go out to some of the canal bridges north or south of the City of Dublin any night, particularly in the winter, and see hundreds and hundreds of people who have no lights on their bicycles and show complete and utter disregard for any rule or courtesy whatsoever. I believe that if eight or ten policemen were sent there with a van and a district justice in it, they could be pulled up and brought before the district justice there and fined 10/- or 15/- or whatever sum, for their offences. It is a very serious matter.

I was coming back from the seaside last year and there were some people returning from a match, or a pattern, or a sports in a great hurry in a small pick-up lorry. I happened to have a bit of anticipation and I was able to get out of the way on the wrong side. I drove to the nearest Civil Guard station and reported the incident, and although there were two Garda, stations within some miles of the road on which that vehicle was travelling, it was never picked up. I wonder am I right in saying that there is some regulation that a Civic Guard in charge of a barracks cannot leave the barracks for fear somebody is going to steal it. I have never heard of a Civil Guard barracks being stolen, but I am told there is a regulation which prevents a Guard in charge of a barracks from going outside to take the number of a vehicle that is dangerous. When I felt it was my duty to report that incident, I was very disappointed that that vehicle could never be picked up.

I want to ask the Minister for Local Government here to ask the Minister for Justice or the Attorney-General to see that Civic Guards are placed on roads when people are coming back from various meetings or gatherings. I believe that they could pick up ten or 15 every time coming back from a race meeting. Such a plan would give a general warning to anybody who is reckless. At the moment anybody who drives against a crowd coming back from a race meeting does so in imminent peril of his life.

Mr. Cox

I do not want to make a long speech, because I agree with much of what has been said before, but I think it is relevant, first of all, to ask why, if, in England, it is necessary to insist that motorists should have a certificate of some knowledge of how to drive and should undergo some kind of course as to the rules of the road, that is not necessary in this country. Everyone who has spoken has emphasised that the trouble lies in the disposition of a great many drivers. I do think that if they were forced to have a knowledge of the rule of the road, there would be far fewer accidents.

I would suggest that that is one thing that ought to be done. The second thing which I think should be done in this matter is the imposition of a 30 miles per hour speed limit in built-up areas. That has been found necessary in other countries and it has been done there, and I do not see why we should not have it here.

A third thing which occurs to me is that more mobile police should be provided who could follow up offences when they see them taking place at the time. That would be very effective and it has been done in other countries with success and could easily be done here. Senator Hayes suggested that in cases of fatal injury due to drink, it might be treated in the nature of a murder offence. I think that, even possibly in minor offences, some more severe penalties should be inflicted. Even in the case of minor offences, it would be much more effective if the person concerned were called on to forfeit his driving licence for a week or so than would be the infliction of a penalty of £1 or so.

The question of motor horns has been referred to in this debate. It is hard to understand why, in our cities and towns, there is not some regulation to deal with this as there is in other countries. That is a subject which might not be quite relevant to this debate, but something should be done about the wanton noise created in our cities and towns by the widespread use of motor horns. I should think that is something that should be dealt with.

Again, I think that something should be done to bring to the attention of the people the fatal accidents which are occurring in our country. I understand that in certain German cities there is a pole placed in a central position, and, when there is a fatal accident in that area, a black flag is raised. I feel it would do much to draw public attention to the position if a black flag were raised in, say, College Green and in the center of our cities and towns when there has been a fatal accident in that area.

Mr. Walsh

The increase in the incidence of fatal and non-fatal accidents each year makes it imperative that serious cognisance be taken of the position. Something will have to be done to reduce the number of these serious accidents. I sincerely agree with what Senator Hayes stated, that the enforcement of regulations or legislation is certainly needed to cure this evil in our midst. A considerable number of the accidents are directly caused by a lack of courtesy and a lack of consideration for others. The statistics show that there has been an increase of 6 per cent. in the fatal accidents and 9 per cent. in the non-fatal accidents over the past 12 months. Considering the very heavy insurance premiums that have now to be paid by motorists and the enormous claims that are being dealt with in the courts each year and the fact that these are a severe burden on the travelling community and seriously affect freight charges, it is very important that something should be done to deal with the situation. When we compare our insurance premiums with those being paid in Northern Ireland and Britain it is obvious that, whether due to lack of understanding or lack of enforcement of regulations by the enforcing authority, or the fact that the Celtic temperament is rather more——

Mr. P. O'Donnell

It is still the same in the Six Counties, I hope, as it is down here.

Mr. Walsh

The Minister must realise that many of the people in the Six Counties are the descendants of the Planters and they are possibly imbued with a greater sense of civic spirit than we.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The majority of them are still Celts.

Mr. Walsh

Because of the fact that they have not been kept down as we have in this part of the country, we find that there is not the same regard for authority in the Twenty-Six Counties as in the North. In that connection, I refer the Minister to the fact that, in the Six Counties, commercial vehicles have to be inspected each year, and, as a consequence, the insurance premiums paid on these vehicles is much less in the Six Counties than it is in this State. When that legislation was first introduced in the Six Counties, the lorry owners were rather opposed to the idea, but they learned after some time that it paid them to have some person there to draw attention to defects in their lorries before major repairs were required and because of the fact that it reduced their insurance premiums very considerably.

As far as driving tests are concerned, the statistics prove that the incidence of accidents amongst experienced drivers is much greater than amongst non-experienced drivers. The satistics which I have show that there are three times as many accidents caused by drivers who have over five years' driving experience than amongst drivers who have very little experience. For that reason, I do not think that driving tests are going to be sufficient, unless these tests take place every few years. In that connection, I think it would be a good thing if those people in certain age groups had to go through some test before they obtained driving licences. I believe that when people commence driving late in life, they cannot become as efficient as those who have started to drive early in life.

Again, I should like to refer to the point made by Senator Burke. As he has already stated, cyclists are responsible for a considerable number of the accidents which are taking place. The statistics show that 26.5 of the accidents which occurred in 1954 were attributable to pedal cyclists and passengers. That is one place where possibly legislation could be introduced to see that cyclists complied to a much greater extent than they now do with the road code.

A fair amount of discussion has taken place in connection with drivers driving while drunk. I am not at one with Senator Kissane and some of the other Senators who suggested that it should be mandatory for a justice to suspend driving licences, as it is at the moment, if a person is found guilty of driving while drunk. I believe more people would be prosecuted for driving when drunk if that discretion were given to the justice, who is a very experienced individual and who is able to make up his mind, possibly as well as the members of this House, as to what the punishment should be. All parties are prejudiced in favour of a drunken driver because they realise that it may mean the loss of his livelihood for 12 months. For that reason, the enforcing authorities may sometimes turn a blind eye, and the doctor who is asked to examine a driver often suggests that it is a border-line case. Naturally, the justice is not anxious to find him drunk, realising that he must suspend that person's licence. I believe, therefore, that it would be preferable if discretion were allowed to a justice in such matters. We all realise that there is a much greater hardship on an individual who is largely dependent for his livelihood on driving, such as a commercial traveller, an engineer or some such person, than on a person who takes his car out only at week-ends, or who may be sufficiently wealthy to employ a driver.

The convictions for driving while drunk in 1954 were 233 and the convictions in 1952 were 325. That shows that there has been a substantial reduction in the numbers driving while drunk and we all realise that a greater number of people would be convicted, if they were detected. As some Senators remarked, very often it is only after an accident that a person is prosecuted for driving while drunk.

I agree with Senator Burke that it would be desirable if this pamphlet on road traffic regulations were issued. When one obtains a triptique from the Automobile Association, he is given a guide to the traffic regulations. If that guide were distributed by the Department of Local Government to everyone who applies for a licence, it would be a desirable step. A great number of accidents are due to a lack of knowledge on the part of drivers as to their responsibilities.

I also agree that a speed limit should be imposed in built-up areas and I suggest that there should be an extension of public lighting in built-up areas, towns and villages. We know that in France the streets in most of the villages are surfaced with cobblestones and I presume the reason for that is to slow up traffic.

Professor Hayes

No, it is not.

Mr. Walsh

It certainly has the effect of doing so.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

You do not want us to cobble the streets?

Mr. Walsh

No, but I suggest that if there is that slowing up on the Continent, we should take some steps to reduce excessive speed through towns and villages. As one who lives on a corner—

Mr. P. O'Donnell

There are enough pot-holes on some of the roads to slow you up.

Mr. Walsh

——I am in mortal terror of the speed of the traffic which passes my house and I have the greatest difficulty in keeping my gate closed so that the children will not go on to the street.

In connection with parking, I feel that it is one case in which the Minister could do something in Dublin. The traffic at the moment is much too great for the streets and unless we get further parking facilities in the city, the position will become chaotic. The congestion is much too great and motor cars at the moment have to park in many places where parking is not permitted. I wonder if the statistics already quoted are not largely those for parking offences. I take it those are included in the traffic statistics which have been given. One has only to go to the District Court any morning to hear the enormous number of summonses dealt with for infringements of the parking regulations. There is no alternative at the moment but to park in many places where one is not supposed to, because of the fact that vehicles are allowed into the centre of the city and there is nowhere else to go.

In regard to dimming, I understand it is necessary to have a dimming apparatus on each vehicle, but that it is not compulsory to dim. Some people maintain it is much safer not to dim because if you do it is not so easy to pick out pedestrains, or cyclists who have no rear reflectors. There should be either one thing or the other. When one individual dims and the other does not it makes it particularly dangerous. Many cars are not equipped with indicators to show whether they are on the dim; some cars show a green light or a red light when they are on the dim, and others do not. It is sometimes impossible for the driver to know whether or not he has employed his dim when he has been passing a considerable amount of traffic.

Pedestrains, too, are responsible for accidents and the percentage of accidents caused by pedestrians is one quarter of the total. It is essential that the whole community should be educated in traffic regulations and the courtesy which is required in these days of fast-moving traffic, if we are to reduce the number of accidents which are so heavy at present.

Pádraig Ó Domhnaill

Ar an gcéad dul síos, ba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh don chaint a dhein an Seanadóir Ó Cíosáin. Táim ar aonaigne leis nach le dlí ná le rialacháin amháin a cuirfear feabhas ar an scéal.

Admhaíonn sé nach fuirist leigheas d'fháil ach go gcaithfear féachaint ar an scéal mar aidhb iompair phearsanta go han-mhinic. Ag caint dó i mBéarla thuigeas uaidh go raibh amhras air an scéal práinne an scéal so in aigne an Rialtais. Chun a aigne a chur chun suaimhnis, déar faidh mé anso, mar dúirt mé leis an Dáil cúpla seachtain ó shin, go dtabharfaidh mé Bille isteach ag déiléal leis an scéal i rith an chéad shiosóin eile. Ar an ábhar san, ní bheidh éinne ag súil go bhféadfaidh me inniu aon chruinn-chuntas a thabhairt don tSeanad i dtaoibh cad a bhéas sa Bhille.

Before dealing with the motion generally, I wonder what has happened to the civic spirit of this country? I have heard Senators here to-day on all sides of the House describe breaches of the law in regard to the Road Traffic Act. Why have they not gone to the Guards and insisted on prosecutions in these cases? I, personally, have caused my driver to report and have prosecuted two defaulters—two gentlemen who committed breaches of the Road Traffic Act. If every Senator, every Deputy and every public-minded citizen in this country did the same thing, we would have fewer accidents. There is no use telling the Seanad or the Minister that they have seen these accidents on such a date. Why do they not tell the Guards and have offenders prosecuted for such offences? The civic spirit of this country is gone, if that is the attitude adopted by Senators, Deputies and others in this country.

I think it was Senator Burke who suggested we should have a mobile district justice going around the country adjudicating on these road hogs. Thanks be to Heaven, the day of the itinerant lawyer is gone in this country. If we are to have a mobile district justice, we will have to have mobile lawyers travelling around with them, because it is only right that the offenders should be afforded legal aid. One can imagine the fleet starting off on the Balbriggan road or down some of the by-roads referred to by Senator O'Gorman. The district justice is in front lying in wait on a by-road for the first road hog to come along. He is prosecuted and then the mobile lawyer is called up to defend him. I wonder what would the Incorporated Law Society say to all that?

Senator Walsh referred to the disposition of district justices—that some justices were, if I may put it this way, shy of convicting. I do not think that that is so. I think the majority of the district justices in this country do their duty, irrespective of their dispositions.

Mr. Walsh

I did not suggest they were shy.

Mr. O'Donnell

The Senator referred to their dispositions. Again, he suggested that, in the case of drunkenness, some doctors, particularly in borderline cases, were very slow to give evidence. I do not think that is right. I know many doctors in this country and I do not think they are afraid to give their evidence truthfully, and, even if it is a borderline case, they are not afraid to do so. So far as I know them, the medical profession are honourable and their evidence will be accepted by any district justice.

I must join issue again with Senator Walsh when he says that the majority of the people in the Six Counties have not the Celtic spirit of the people of the Twenty-Six Counties. I am surprised at the Senator, whose roots are in those six north-eastern counties, making such a statement.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not the issue in the motion.

Mr. O'Donnell

It is a statement made by the Senator and I join issue with him on that. I say the majority of the people of the Six Counties are Celtic. I am surprised at the Senator making that statement.

I appreciate the awareness of the Seanad of the urgent need to secure greater safety on our roads, as is shown by the number of occassions in recent years in which the House has found it desirable to devote time to the discussion of matters relating to road traffic. However, I would point out that there is no easy, quick or sure panacea for the modern evil of increasing road accidents and that, while motions of the kind at present before us help to focus public attention on the problem, it seems now that it is almost impossible to convience, by reasonable argument alone, certain small sections of road users, for example, the reckless, careless or drunken motorist or cyclist and the same categories of pedestrians, that, in the ever-increasing volume of traffic, they are bound to meet disaster and to cause tragedy and untold suffering to innocent people. While we cannot be complacent about the fact, we may be thankful that, so far, the increase in road accidents has not been in proportion to the increase in traffic.

I might say here that accident statistics do not bear out the widely-held opinion that the motorist is always at fault. I think, in fairness to everyone, that Senator Walsh did refer to that. Road safety is a problem which, by its many-sided nature, cannot be the concern of any one particular Department of State. For instance, my Department is responsible for legislation relating to road traffic and supervises the road and bridge improvement programmes of road authorities. The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána, on the other hand, has the duty to prescribe the rules which the traffic must obey. He also has to see that these rules are observed by the various classes of road user. In addition, the Departments of Industry and Commerce and Justice have certain functions which are analogous to the general functions of these Departments. Nevertheless, the Departments work together in harmony with a common aim.

Since the war years great strides have been made in every part of the country in the widening and strengthen-of roads; in the improvement of road surfaces; the elimination of dangerous bends; the replacing of defective bridges; the improvement of vision at junctions; the erection of traffic lights at important city junctions, and so on. The major part of these works of improvement was made possible by the generous grants made available to local authorities by successive Ministers for Local Government. It would not be possible to calculate the contribution to road safety which has already been made, but the fact that the normal, decent driver on many of our roads can go about his business on a wide well-cambered carriageway which has adequate visibility, means less wear and tear on man and machine than was possible on the narrow tortuous routes which have already been replaced.

The legislative side of road safety is not being neglected, either. The House will remember that the Local Government Act passed last year contained several relevant provisions. Section 37 of that Act enables local authorities to formulate schemes of traffic wardens, who would make it possible for school children to cross roads on their way to and from school in safety. The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána has undertaken to give every assistance to any authority who wishes to initiate a scheme of traffic wardens and advise on all matters pertaining to the operation of the scheme.

Again, Section 36 of the same Act cleared up certain difficulties in previous legislation regarding traffic signs. As a result, I hope to be in a position soon to prescribe a general system of traffic signs applicable to the whole country, which will have at least the great benefit of securing uniformity throughout the State in the matter of the various road signs. The matters dealt with in the regulations will include such things as the marking of pedestrian crossings and of major and minor roads in which this House has shown interest from time to time. I understand that the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána is also overhauling the by-laws for the control of traffic, so that when the two sets of regulations are published, there will be a complete up-to-date uniform code on the subject. It will be for the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána to ensure that every road user abides by the regulations.

I can assure the House that adequate steps will be taken to acquaint every road user with his rights and duties when on the road. In this connection, I hope to have a booklet published which will set out in simple language the elementary rules of the road and I can only hope that everyone will make himself familiar with its contents and the rules it contains in a spirit of good will.

Finally, every proposal for road traffic regulation which has been received over a long period in the various Departments concerned has been considered carefully by a group of Departmental representatives and, having studied the very full reports available, I hope to place before the Government for their consideration in the very near future the proposals which I consider appropriate to deal with the situation. The Seanad will, therefore, have an opportunity of examining in detail all aspects of road traffic matters and I can now assure the House that, while I cannot commit myself to accepting any particular proposal, any sound suggestions that may be put forward by any member will receive full consideration.

In this way I hope that, so far as legislation can secure it, we will soon have a modern, sound traffic road code. However, I personally feel that we could drop a large part of our legislative set-up in the matter, if every road-user would only be as courteous on the road as he would be at his own fireside. I feel that no amount of legislation will secure a reasonable reduction in traffic accidents, unless we are able to teach road-users to have reasonable consideration for each other. The Department of Education and educational authorities generally can and are no doubt doing an amount of good in the schools in teaching children the elements of road safety, but this is a long-term approach and it is essential to get the ear of present-day drivers now. Commendable work is being done in this connection by voluntary organisations, such as the Safety First Association of the St. John Ambulance Brigade. The increasing amount of space being devoted by the Press to road safety matters is, I feel, also bound to have good results.

There will, of course, always be the small, hard core of incorrigibles who are unwilling to conform to a reasonable standard of road behaviour; and it does seem that the full rigour of the law is the only means of bringing these people to their senses. That, however, is a matter for other hands than mine.

May I conclude by saying that, despite the potent argument of Senator Hayes and despite the marathon speeches of both the proposer and seconder of the motion, I accept it.

Éamon Ó Cíosáin

Do bhí díospóireacht mhaith againn anso ar an dtairiscint seo agus más tairbheach don Aire é nuair a bheidh an cheist seo, ceist an tráchta ar na bóithre, á scrúdú aige, beidh rud éigin déanta againn agus má bhíonn na pointí seo ina n-údar machnaimh ag an bpobal amuigh beidh rud maith déanta againn. Ní haon cheist pholaitíochta é mar tá fhios agam go bhfuil suim ag na Seanadóirí go léir, suim mhór inti mar cheist. Ní haon ionadh é sin, dar ndóigh, nuair a cuimhnítear ar an méid tíonóiscí atá ag tarló ar na bóithre ó ló go ló.

So much has been said on the motion before the House that it would be wrong for me, I think, to hold up the House very much longer. There are, however, a few final remarks I should like to make in connection with the motion and in relation to certain points of view put forward here this evening. I was surprised to learn from Senator Hayes that he could not accept the motion—I suppose in the terms in which it is couched.

Professor Hayes

That is right.

Mr. Kissane

I am very glad to know that the Minister takes a more realistic attitude and that he is prepared to accept the substance of the motion and have it considered as soon as possible.

Professor Hayes

It may then turn out that Senator Hayes is the more realistic of the two.

Mr. Kissane

Time will tell. Now, it was not for the purpose of having new legislation that we put down this motion. The primary purpose was to focus public attention on the problem of road traffic and the dangers inherent in the present situation. If I were sure that there was no necessity for amending legislation to deal with this problem, I should be very glad; like Senator Hayes, I am one of those who do not believed in too much legislation for the purpose of regulating the lives and habits of our people. If the legislation we have is sufficient to deal with the problem, well and good; but I do not believe it is sufficient. I believe it will be necessary to amend the law in certain directions in order to implement the views we hold in this matter.

I do not want it to go forth from this House that we put all the blame for the present situation on the motorists. As I said on another occasion, we are always inclined to point to the motorist as the villain of the piece. Sometimes he is not the villain; sometimes it is the other fellow who is the villain. I agree with the Minister that there is, too, contributory negligence on the part of pedestrians and, but for that negligence, accidents would not occur. In a case of contributory negligence, the purpose of the law is to discover who did the last portion of the action that brought about the accident. Sometimes that person is the pedestrian. Therefore, when dealing with this problem, we are not dealing merely with motorists. We are dealing with pedestrians too. Sometimes it takes a motorist all his time and all his ingenuity to avoid an accident, because of the jay walking and generaly carelessness of pedestrians.

We have then the problem of the cyclists. That is a special problem in itself. From my observation of the situation here in Dublin, and elsewhere, there seems to be no law whatever controlling cyclists. They can do what they like and go where they like. They shoot out at every possible angle. Again, it takes the motorist all his time to find a way of avoiding accidents when coping with cyclists of that description. The position of cyclists requires careful consideration, especially having regard to the bad parking regulations. Sometimes one has a double row of cars parked and cyclists come along and occupy most of the remaining portion of the road. What is the motorist to do? That position should be examined in relation to this problem of road traffic.

When approaching this very important matter, which sometimes involves fatal accidents, we must have regard to all sides of it and to all sections of the community, pedestrians and cyclists included. There is no use in putting the blame on the motorists at all times.

There is one section of the driving public who also require special attention—the lorry drivers. The vast majority of them are careful and good drivers, but there is a small minority of them, the hard core, which cannot be so described. As Senator Hayes said, in matters of this kind, it is the minority we have to take into account. Let it not be understood from what we have said that there is any fault-finding here with the general bulk of the motoring public of this country. The fault that is to be found is with the small, careless minority who do not observe the rules of the road.

I am also very much in favour of what the Minister has said about the teaching of the rudiments of road safety in the schools. That is an excellent idea and one that should be promoted, but I wonder in how many of the schools it is being done at the moment, or whether there is going to be a very definite campaign to have it done more widely in the schools all over the country and, also, who will be responsible for the campaign. Will it be the Minister for Education? He should be the Minister responsible for that.

I should like to finish by quoting a remark made by Senator O'Gorman. He said that our one idea is to preserve human life on the road. I am in entire agreement with that. That is the idea of all of us, no matter what motion is put down or in what terms the motion is couched, and no matter what side of the House we sit on. That is the idea that exists amongst all of us—to preserve human life on the roads. If, as a result of this discussion, we have approached any closer to that ideal, then we have done something good for the country.

Motion put and agreed to.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 19th July, 1956.