Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 5 Jan 1961

Vol. 53 No. 9

Sale of Beef to Western Germany: Irish Quota: Motion.

Mr. Prendergast

I move:

That Seanad Éireann is of opinion that action should have been taken by the Government in relation to the sale of a large quantity of foreign beef to Western Germany this year on the Irish quota, which could have serious effects on our trade with Western Germany, a country from which we buy many times as much as they buy from us.

I put down this motion because of information I received from exporters of beef to Western Germany in this country that beef was being imported into Western Germany with a certificate of Irish origin from a country other than the Republic of Ireland. According to our trade statistics, from January to September, 1960, we exported 926 tons 17 cwts. valued at £182,396. From information I have received—and I have been on the phone on several occasions to Western Germany—the German Federal Republic imported from us, 3,650 tons, a difference according to our statistics of 2,724 tons. These figures do not include our exports of beef to the American Forces in Germany. They are dealt with separately and do not interfere with the quota of meat we are allowed to export to Western Germany.

The difference as I said is 2,724 tons. The value of that difference, working on the value of the 926 tons 17 cwts. as £182,396, is approximately over £500,000. I make it £550,000. The total quota that Western Germany gives us for 15 months is worth about £2 million. If that is true, a South American country has taken over £500,000 worth of our quota from us. In view of that fact, and in view of our trading with Germany, a country from which we import far more than we export, I consider it is a rather serious matter.

On 24th November as reported in Volume 185, No. 2, at column 268 of the Official Report, Deputy Kenny asked the Minister for Agriculture:

... if he is aware that meat from foreign countries has been sold in Germany under the description "Irish Meat"; and, if so, what steps he has taken to prevent such an abuse and possible harm to Irish interests.

The Minister replied:

Allegations to this effect have been looked into, but no evidence that any non-Irish beef was sold in Germany as Irish beef has so far come to the notice of my Department nor is there anything to show that Ireland's interests have been adversely affected. In the latter connection I should like to point out that only beef covered by an official veterinary certificate issued by my Department can be counted against the relevant quota in the current Trade Agreement with Germany.

From my information 2,724 tons were imported into Western Germany with a certificate of Irish origin. The seriousness of that is not so much the amount involved, but the position of exporters from this country in so far as they are quoting in competition with a South American country which can deliver frozen beef at 4d., 5d. or 6d. a lb., possibly, less than we can. When some firm in Western Germany wants a thousand tons of beef, if an exporter from this country quotes for it, he should, everything being equal, be given the consideration to which he is entitled. The South American country which is involved has no quota from Western Germany and would not ordinarily be in competition with him.

My information is that this country, unknown to the Irish exporter, was in competition. The result is that we have already lost over £500,000 of the quota of £2,000,000 which we are allowed. That represents approximately one-fourth. I should be glad if the Minister could give a satisfactory reply. There is a lot of public concern about this. It has been mentioned in quite a few papers. In the Farmers' Journal of September 24th, 1960, we read: “Is our beef quota being stolen?” If the Minister can tell me that beef did not go to Western Germany on a certificate of Irish origin or if he can satisfactorily explain how these 2,724 tons of alleged Irish beef got into Western Germany, I shall be quite satisfied as, I am sure, will everybody else.

Dr. O'Donovan

I formally second the motion and reserve my right to speak later.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Smith)

As the Senator has stated, I replied to a Parliamentary Question in the Dáil on this matter. In the course of that reply, which I have not before me, I gave the facts as we in the Department knew them. I am concerned not so much with whence the meat was imported into Western Germany as with the observance of our trading arrangements with that country and with that Government. We made an agreement with them covering 15 months ending in December of last year. That agreement provided for the sale to Western Germany of £2.1 million worth of meat in these 15 months. The point that is of importance to us is whether we lost any of that quota. Did we fail to supply the meat to Germany?

Mr. Prendergast

We were being undercut by a foreign country.

Mr. Smith

That is a different matter.

Mr. Prendergast

That country was using our quota to undercut us.

Mr. Smith

Since our quota arrangements with them are measured against the provision of veterinary certificates by our own veterinary people, there can be no question about our being robbed, as some of those writing and talking on the subject would have us believe.

Dr. O'Donovan

The Minister is an innocent man.

Mr. Smith

Of course, I am not an innocent man. There is no question of doubt on that issue. Our information is that up to the end of 1960, we did not sell meat to Western Germany to the extent that our agreement with them enabled us to do. Since our quota is measured in the fashion I have described, there could not be any skulduggery. How could it arise?

Mr. Carton

We did not fill the £2.1 million?

Mr. Smith

No, we did not.

Mr. Carton

So the Germans issued licences to somebody else to balance that?

Mr. Smith

We do not know what they did. We did not fill our quota. That is the position as far as we have been able to check these figures. The only point on which we would be entitled to feel aggrieved would be if, within the period of 15 months provided for in the agreement, we were unable to find a market in Western Germany for the amount of meat covered in the agreement to which I have referred. No such situation has arisen. Naturally, we have been pursuing this matter very energetically. Apparently many people find it possible to lay their hands on all sorts of information but we cannot get some of the information they claim they have. I can find no proof of that allegation.

Mr. Prendergast

I shall give it to the Minister any time he wants it.

Mr. Smith

I read about it in the Farmers' Journal and in a number of papers, but that is not the information that would satisfy a Department that there is justification for the complaint and that it did happen.

Mr. Carton

Would the German licensing authorities not be able to deal with the matter?

Mr. Smith

We have been in contact with them. We have pursued the matter as best we can. We have no information that would justify the allegation. What is important to us is whether or not we were free to take advantage of the opportunities the agreement to which I have referred entitled us. My information now is that we did not exhaust our right arising out of that agreement. Only when we would be up against it and be deprived of something the agreement provided could we say our country suffered.

Dr. O'Donovan

Did the Minister's Department find the discrepancy between the trade figures?

Mr. Smith

There are always discrepancies.

Dr. O'Donovan

For goodness' sake, please do not answer us in that fashion. The cost of transport——

Mr. Smith

There are discrepancies even in our trading with the British.

Dr. O'Donovan

The Minister must think we are fools.

Mr. O'Quigley

Discrepancies in the order of 2,000 out of 3,000?

Dr. O'Donovan

This is a very serious matter. Time and again, our trading with Western Germany has been bedevilled by actions of the Germans. Since we had a good deal of history here today, I can give the first example. It was when this country bought four tankers and paid £3,000,000 for them, pre-war. The Germans ratted on the agreement because the tankers were ordered through London—and "ratted" is the correct word. Perhaps that example is something the Minister does not know quite as well as he knows the history of the Dairy Disposal Company. This kind of thing is extremely unsatisfactory.

We all know the game of the Parliamentary Question as observed by decent Departments—and there is no more decent Department than the Department of Agriculture. You tell the absolute truth but, if it is against you—and the Department may not feel that this is so much against them— you tell the minimum. The Minister tonight, as in the Dáil, stood on one thing, that is to say, beef covered by the relevant veterinary certificate. One would imagine we were all children of two years of age. Did nobody in the Department of Agriculture ever hear of transhipment at sea? Did nobody in the Department of Agriculture realise the advantage to somebody of sending Irish beef where it can go without any certificate and of replacing it with a cargo of inferior beef? One would want to be born yesterday to believe that they did not.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

What about——

Dr. O'Donovan

Words fail me. Really at times the lack of "savvy" on the part of my namesake brings the clan into disrepute. Let us not misunderstand the situation. This matter is of great importance. Let me give one example of how it is of great importance. We are recorded in Germany as having provided £500,000 worth of beef. With regard to the negotiators of these trade agreements with Germany, they have not been notable for spectacular success in the past. I said that publicly before. In fact, a friend of mine who used to go to Germany very frequently—he was educated there pre-war and knows the language well—was told on one occasion, in relation to the production of an enormous platter of butter at a party, that it was a big event in Western Germany and was worth 10/-per pound. He explained that we could provide it at 4/-. They asked him what kind of negotiators we had to put up with that situation.

The next time the bilateral trade agreement comes up, we shall be scheduled as having exported to Germany against £2.1 million of the quota, meat valued £1,500,000 or £1,750,000. The point is that that could be substituted. If we do not fill the quota with beef, we could substitute something else for it. That is the significance of it. Is that of no importance? I think it is of very great importance.

Mr. Carter

Would the Senator develop that point further?

Dr. O'Donovan

The fact is that if you issue a veterinary certificate for a cargo of Irish beef to Germany and if, in fact, the Irish beef goes somewhere else and is substituted by some inferior beef, the German import figures are falsified. They become wrong, inaccurate and the Irish figures also become inaccurate, of course. Something has gone wrong somewhere. Both sides are wrong.

The Minister says he gave the facts of the case. The only fact the Minister gave was one fact. He referred to the relevant veterinary certificate. I am not trying to make a fake case or anything of that sort. I appreciate the significance of this matter fully and when it was mentioned to me originally by Senator Prendergast, I realised the significance of it. Our experience with the Germans in relation to these trade matters has been extremely bad. If there is any method by which they can do a double deal, that is to say, arrange with a South American country or anything of that sort, they will do it.

I am not accusing the Minister of anything except simply continuing the gamesmanship we had from him here all day today calling "off side" and "no ball". That is really what he has done again. If there is this major discrepancy between the trade figures, the Minister says there are always these discrepancies. Sure there is always the difference between the cargo that reaches a country f.a.s. and f.o.b., free alongside ship or free on board and the cost of the importing country c.i.f., carriage, insurance and freight paid. Anybody who looks at these international trade figures sees these discrepancies but you do not see this kind. One would have understood if the Minister said there was overlapping but, quite obviously, there is no explanation of this serious discrepancy in so far as the Minister produced any here today.

There is no use saying that if we did not fill the quota that is quite right. It is not quite right. It is quite all wrong. The fact is—I have not seen recent figures—that we buy £10 million or £11 million worth of products from Germany but, by being very gracious and stretching themselves, they buy £3 million worth from us. This is a matter of most serious importance. You will notice that I am assuming it happened. Why am I assuming it happened? I assume it happened because of the serious discrepancy in the figures. There is the proof. Something went wrong somewhere. I appreciate immediately that the Department of Agriculture have made all the inquiries they could and that they have used whatever methods they have. I have no suggestion to make as to how this kind of thing could be prevented unless you send a man with every cargo. Certain people went with cargoes, as Senator Ó Donnabháin knows, who did no work. They went for years. A suggestion has been made that Senator Ó Donnabháin, being a vet, might be a suitable man to send.

Mr. O'Quigley

Or Senator Sheehy Skeffington with his interest in dead horses and meat.

Dr. O'Donovan

There are more ramifications to this matter than the Minister pretended when he kept on with this gamesmanship which he developed so highly today. I hope this matter will be pursued to the last degree and that every effort will be made to discover what happened or where the difficulty is because, as sure as tomorrow's sun will rise, the German authorities will use this against us when the time comes.

Mr. Smith

They cannot do that because, as I am now informed, the veterinary certificate to which I have referred has to carry on its face the type and the quantity of each consignment. As well as that, it has to have the names and addresses of the consignors. It is not possible to make the alterations to which the Senator referred.

Dr. O'Donovan

I did not suggest any alterations. Might I be permitted to explain one thing?

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Is this an orderly debate?

Dr. O'Donovan

The Minister made a remark and it is only fair to try to debate the matter reasonably. The Minister's case fundamentally is that you could not switch the cargo but, of course, you could switch it. The Minister talked about beef of a certain type, but why could you not replace beef of a higher quality with that of a lower quality?

Mr. Smith

It would not affect the total quantity in view of the fact that each certificate has to show the quantity. Let us concede that the type would not mean anything. Surely the certification indicated the quantity and when all these certificates are added together, surely we should know, in a period of 15 months, the amount of meat we exported inside the period covered by the agreement.

Dr. O'Donovan

The Minister apparently has never heard, and his reply about the veterinary certificate suggests that his Department has not heard, of transhipment at sea.

Mr. Smith

It could not affect the quantity.

Dr. O'Donovan

If the Minister thinks it out, he will realise what I am getting at.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I am wondering whether we are in Committee or is this just an ordinary motion. I wish to say that——

Mr. O'Quigley

We could not hear the Senator up to now.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

What was the interruption?

Dr. O'Donovan

We are anxious to hear the Senator.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

That is very nice. They are anxious to hear me.

Mr. Carton

That apparently surprises the Senator, but we are really anxious to hear him.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I never knew anything about this matter until I saw it on the Order Paper and I never knew any of the details until I heard Senator Prendergast's statement. Immediately I heard him, I got the impression that he was concealing matters which he could tell us. I do not know whether that is true or not.

(Interruptions.)

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I shall sit down if Senators over there repeatedly interrupt me for no reason. I am trying to discuss this as quietly as possible.

Mr. O'Quigley

It is good-natured interruption.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

There is very little good nature from the Senator over there.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Ó Donnabháin must be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I got the impression that there was something very seriously wrong in the matter of these exports. Naturally I am very interested in the export of any live cattle or dead meat, not only professionally but also as a member of this House. When it comes to the figures that my namesake juggled around, with his hands as well, I am at a loss to understand it. As far as I can judge from what Senator Prendergast said, there was something like £250,000 worth of meat credited as exported from this country which was not sent from this country.

Mr. Prendergast

Correct.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

The first thing that strikes me is that on all meat sent from this country, there is an accompanying veterinary certificate giving particulars and is not each quarter of meat stamped with our respective pass?

Mr. Prendergast

Yes.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

If something on the line suggested has happened, there must be an extensive secret service organisation at work. The stamp must be falsified and a duplicate stamp must be got to stamp each quarter of meat in two places.

Mr. Prendergast

I want to find out how that happened.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

That is why I said the Senator knew things which he did not convey to the House. If this falsification of a quantity of meat exported from this country took place, there must have been an elaborate organisation to do it, to falsify the stamps and substitute stamps and transpose the meat from one ship to another. The veterinary inspector who inspects the carcases can be indentified by the number on the stamp so that it seems to me extraordinary that such a thing could occur. We do not know from the Minister or from the complainant whether it did occur. Senator O'Donovan does not know whether it did or not but he said a whole lot against the Minister.

Dr. O'Donovan

I did not say one word against the Minister—not one single word.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Indeed the Senator did because not only——

Mr. O'Quigley

This is not politics.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I say that he definitely did say things against the Minister. Again, it is an extraordinary thing that we as traders did not fill the quota, that exporters such as Senator Prendergast himself and those exporting from the abattoir could not fill the quota.

Dr. O'Donovan

All the more opportunity for skulduggery.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Will the Senator stop interrupting? If they did not fill the quota of £2.1 million, it speaks badly for all of us, and for the Irish exporters of beef, that we did not fill that quota. Why did we not fill it? Was the price not good enough?

An Cathaoirleach

That is outside the scope of the motion.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I think it is relevant that we have a quota to fill and we failed to fill it, and yet somebody by an elaborate system of falsification sent meat in our name from another country. We are not even told it was the Argentine or Peru or some other country.

Mr. Prendergast

I shall tell the House if the Minister——

Seán Ó Donnabháin

It is very difficult for us to judge whether the Senator is correct or not. I heard him say "my information is" and "I am told" and, as an exporter, he must and should have inside information which he should have supplied to the Department of Agriculture. When he goes to the extent of bringing the matter up for discussion, he should supply the information to the House because what is discussed here is communicated to the public through the radio and the newspapers. As a member of this House, I want to have the matter clarified as far as possible and to understand what happened exactly. From the Minister's explanation, he does not know what happened and we do not know what happened from the Senator's speech. That is not satisfactory for a debate in this House. That is all I have to say in connection with this matter. There must have been elaborate forgery——

Dr. O'Donovan

There would be no need at all for forgery.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

The certificate would have to be transferred and there would have to be forgery of a stamp, which is a vital thing for an inspector.

Dr. O'Donovan

This all happened outside Ireland.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

The stamp is a sacred thing in the hands of a veterinary inspector and if his stamp is transposed to another carcase——

Mr. Carton

There is no question of the meat leaving this country at all. It leaves another country and goes into Germany on our licence in Germany.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps Senator Ó Donnabháin would like to conclude his remarks?

Seán Ó Donnabháin

It is extraordinary that a Senator like Senator Carton can tell me particulars of this incident that the mover of the motion could not tell us.

Mr. Carton

I am merely helping.

Mr. Smith

There are just two points which I should like to mention.

An Cathaoirleach

The mover of the motion will have the right to reply presently. The Minister may have some points of explanation.

Mr. Smith

Whatever discrepancies may exist as between our figures and the Germans', the Germans have not challenged ours. They have not challenged our figures.

Mr. Carton

That is understandable.

Mr. Smith

The next point is, to those who say that the switching of a cargo can take place, the Germans will not admit meat into their country unless it is accompanied by the veterinary certificate to which I have referred.

Dr. O'Donovan

I am sure it was accompanied by it all right.

Mr. Smith

I think there is much ado about nothing. As I say, the discrepancy is there. They are unable, apparently, to explain it. We are unable to find how it could have arisen but they have not challenged our figures.

Mr. Donegan

The first point I should like to make is that this is not a political debate at all and there is no desire to blame the Minister or his Department. This whole business is most unfortunate. It appears now as if the discrepancy referred to by the Minister is in fact something in the order of 2,724 tons, of a value of approximately £500,000, referred to by the mover of the motion. The Minister has not said so but he has told us that there is a discrepancy. That is admitted. Secondly, he has said that while there is a discrepancy, the Germans have not challenged our figures. Therefore, I suppose we must take it that they accept our figures. It seems as if they accept them. Why do they accept them if their own figures tell a different story? In my view, they accept them because they probably believe they are in error, either deliberately in error or by a mistake. In fact, they are in error and have admitted a discrepancy. I presume they have admitted 2,724 tons, value £500,000, as Irish beef.

The point was made by Senator Ó Donnabháin on this question of the stamp and the certificate of origin. He is quite right. With the exception of some notable infamous characters who have since hit the dust, the veterinary profession is a very honourable one and, as he says, the stamp in the vet's hand or his certificate of origin is sacred to the veterinary profession in this country. But, while we may regard as sacred the stamped side of beef with our stamp on it and our type of certificate of origin, there is no guarantee that the German authorities would not accept a certificate of origin written on a blank piece of paper and signed by a vet. In such a situation all you want is one vet who will sign a certificate of origin which is in fact a falsification. The reaction would be, not to discredit the Minister or the Department or the veterinary profession but certainly a loss of business in respect of our exports to Western Germany.

Mr. Smith

It could not.

Mr. Donegan

Why would it account for loss of business? We did not fill our quota. That is the obvious answer. You must remember that there are always reasons. I do not think the exporters of beef from this country are so lax that they have not got their contacts in Western Germany if there is a quota of 2,100 tons of beef available over 15 months.

Mr. Smith

Price factors.

Mr. Donegan

The Minister interrupts to say "price factors". What would affect such a factor? The appearance of 2,724 tons of Argentinian beef and—a figure given by one exporter—approximately 6d. a lb. less. Would that not be a reason why we did not export this 2,724 tons, or whatever was required by Western Germany?

I feel that the whole thing is serious and that it is a good thing that it has come to the surface. It brings no discredit to the Minister or to his Department. It has wakened up the German authorities. It is the Minister's job and the Department's job to get in contact with the German authorities and to see that it does not happen again. That is the kernel of the whole problem. It is a good thing that Senator Prendergast moved his motion here and he has proved conclusively, if we read between the lines that this did happen and that the discrepancy does exist. Such has been admitted by the Minister.

Mr. Carton

And the Minister is not responsible.

Mr. Donegan

The Minister is not responsible. We do not hold him responsible. We do not blame him or his Department but we exhort him either through our trade attachés or consuls abroad or by his own actions in relation to Western Germany to see that it does not happen again. If it does happen again, our Government here should make the strongest protest.

Mr. Smith

I do not know how long a debate of this character will continue. I took it that this debate would be on the same basis as the half-hour debate on the adjournment in the Dáil.

Dr. O'Donovan

I do not think it will go on much longer.

Mr. Smith

I do not think it is fair to have an all-night performance on this.

Dr. O'Donovan

There is no danger of that.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not an adjournment debate but I gather there is agreement that the House should adjourn at 8.30.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I did not like to interrupt Senator Donegan. He referred to veterinary surgeons who had since "bit the dust". I had said that their stamp was sacred. I want to protest against that remark by Senator Donegan. Any veterinary surgeon can be deceived by people who want to falsify results or certificates. Owners of cattle have been prosecuted and fined. I want to protest against any unfair criticism of the veterinary profession in that regard but I did not want to interrupt the Senator.

Mr. Donegan

On a point of explanation, I did not infer that there was anything wrong with the veterinary profession, but I did say that, just as in all professions, all vets are not angels, all farmers are not angels and all you wanted in this instance was one vet to write a certificate of origin. There was no reflection on the veterinary profession. He could be an Argentinian.

Mr. L'Estrange

This cannot be be regarded as a political motion. We do not want to blame the Minister or put him in the dock. There is definite public uneasiness and if the Minister can do anything to allay it, so much the better. Listening to Senator Ó Donnabáin one would think that the Germans were so honest that they would not ask to have a switch on the high seas or before landing at the port, and have the stamps and the certificate of Irish beef for it when it arrived in Germany. Judging by what the Germans did during the last war— and we know what they did—as regards forgery, they have the ways and means and are fit to do anything in that regard.

Mr. Carter

You are neutral.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is going far outside the scope of the motion.

Mr. L'Estrange

A ring of racketeers in Germany could do that and do untold harm to our Irish beef trade. Senator Ó Donnabháin stated that the stamp was a sacred thing in the hands of inspectors. I want to say, and I said it before, that, unfortunately, there are or there were a very small number of vets in this country and it is well known that they gave certificates for T.B. free cattle without ever seeing the cattle.

Mr. Carter

That does not come into the matter. The Senator is talking through his hat.

Mr. L'Estrange

The same thing could happen in this case.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

That is a grossly unfair statement.

Mr. L'Estrange

That is the truth and it is well known that they gave certificates, at £1 and £2 a piece, without ever looking at the cattle and that has done a good deal of harm to our trade.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will now leave that matter.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

I have to protest.

Mr. L'Estrange

Who is interrupting now? The Senator has spoken four times already. I am staying on my feet and will not withdraw for the Senator. Ireland is noted for the export of first quality beef, both to England and the Continent. As far as we are concerned on this side of the House, in the interests of the producer, we want to try to maintain that high reputation, whether in Western Germany, England or anywhere else. We do not want to see beef coming in from the Argentine or anywhere else and then being imported into Germany on our quota.

Mr. Prendergast

I agree with the Minister that our quota was not filled by a very large amount up to 31st December. I have the figures only to the end of September because it was only in the period prior to September that this business happened.

Mr. O'Grady

Would the Senator say why it was not filled?

Mr. Prendergast

I am coming to that. There are special factors. Regardless of any imports from the Argentine, I still do not think it would be filled; nevertheless, I do think it is possible that these 2,724 tons could have been sent from this country to Western Germany, if competition had not come from the Argentine and undercut our prices. I am not saying that the £2 million quota would have been filled but it is possible that these 2,724 tons would have been shipped to Western Germany.

In reply to Senator Ó Donnabháin, who suggests I am keeping secrets from this House and the Department, may I say that is completely untrue? I have been in touch with the Department about this and I have been on the phone to Western Germany. I have tried to get information from the Department and did not get as much as I thought I would get. It is a fact —I do not think the Minister can deny this—that the West German Government in Bonn have been very much concerned about this and have been investigating it for the past couple of months. That goes to prove that I did not put down this motion for any reason other than the fact that this has happened; otherwise, the West German Government would not be investigating it as they are doing. It is about three weeks since I was on to Germany. There is no exporter from this country involved in any way, but six importers from Germany have been importing Argentinian beef on the Irish quota.

Dr. O'Donovan

Giving our beef a bad name.

Seán Ó Donnabháin

Senator Prendergast has grand information. If we had had that information at the start, I would not have spoken as I did.

Mr. Prendergast

That is the information I have. I did not think that was relevant to my motion when I first spoke. The Department here have also been investigating it. The Minister said it has not happened; he did not tell the House that it has been under investigation here.

Mr. Smith

I said that as far as we could establish we could find no evidence that it had happened.

Dr. O'Donovan

That was the point the Minister made—no evidence.

Mr. Smith

We could find no evidence.

Dr. O'Donovan

Surely the trade figures are evidence?

Mr. Prendergast

I should like to say in this connection that I am not reflecting on the Minister or the Department in any way. What I am trying to get home is that, to the best of my knowledge and from information I have received from many importers in Germany, this thing has happened. I should like the Minister and the Department to give us an assurance that the matter will be investigated and that it will not continue to happen in our trade with Western Germany.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

The Seanad adjourned at 8.25 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 10th January, 1961.