Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 5 Nov 1969

Vol. 67 No. 1

National Building Agency Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1969 ( Certified Money Bill ): Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Minister for Local Government (Mr. K. Boland)

Bille gearr é seo go bhfuil mar cuspóir leis méadú £3 milliún a udarú sa teorainn le hairleacain agus le ráthaíochta atá ar fáil don Gníomhaireacht Foirgníochta Náisiúnta. Tá gá leis an mhéadú go hairithe maidir le tithíochta do thionsclaíocht.

The National Building Agency was originally established in 1960 as a company under the Companies Acts. Its purpose at that time was to meet a need for housing required in connection with industrial development—a need which was not being catered for by private enterprise and which could not appropriately be met by local housing authorities. It was placed on a statutory basis by the National Building Agency Limited Act, 1963, and, in 1965, the scope of its activities was extended to cover any housing or related operations assigned to it by the Minister for Local Government.

The purpose of this Bill is to provide additional moneys for the Agency's industrial housing operations. These operations are financed by repayable advances made by the Minister for Finance under section 6 of the 1963 Act. Provision is also made in section 7 of the Act for the Minister for Local Government to guarantee moneys borrowed for this purpose. Under section 9, the aggregate at any time of advances and guaranteed borrowing by the Agency, still unrepaid, may not exceed £2 million. No guarantee has as yet been given under section 7, but the full amount of £2 million has now been advanced to the Agency under section 6. An extension of the statutory limit is urgently required, and the purpose of this Bill is to extend that limit to £5 million.

The Agency's original purpose of facilitating industrial development and expansion by providing housing accommodation is still an important aspect of its activities. Houses are also provided by the Agency to the order of local authorities and for State employees, such as members of the Garda Síochána, whose duties involve occasional transfers of residence. In its operations it works within broad policy outlines, determined by me from time to time, and in co-operation with the local authority or Department concerned, the Industrial Development Authority and any other relevant public body.

In catering for housing needs associated with industry the Agency not merely builds the dwellings required, but acquires the sites and plans the building and financing of the houses. In the normal course the dwellings are provided at the request of individual industries and are financed by way of mortgage loans, granted by the Agency either to the firms or to nominated individual employees. The usual grants payable by the State and local authorities are also obtained. A small proporation of houses are provided for letting.

Special arrangements have been made with An Foras Tionscal to provide industrial housing in Galway and Waterford on a more general basis related to the anticipated growth of the industrial estates in these cities as a whole, rather than for specific industries. The White Paper which I recently published—"Housing in the Seventies"—indicated that similar arrangements will be extended to housing for industry in other areas generally, to the order of the Industrial Development Authority. The White Paper also stated that it was the Government's intention that houses built by the Agency, in association with local authorities, for key workers in new or extending industry should qualify for subsidy at the higher rate. This step should extend the association of local authorities with industrial development in their areas.

The accounts of the Agency are examined by the Comptroller and Auditor General and are laid before each House of the Oireachtas with his comments. I have informed the Dáil that I intend to ask the Agency to publish an annual report giving full information about their activities and to arrange that this report will be available to the public.

In conclusion, let me say that by the 30th September, 1969, a total of 751 houses for industry had been completed by the Agency, 109 were then under construction and 378 were being planned. Further advances amounting to £3 million, will, it is estimated, be required over the next five years or so to finance the Agency's industrial housing activities. It is for this reason I am asking that the limit of £2 million, specified by section 9 of the 1963 Act, should be increased to £5 million.

The measure has been welcomed by all parties in Dáil Éireann and I commend it to the Seanad.

Mr. O'Higgins

As the Minister says, this is a short Bill, and the view I take of it is that many of us feel as I do— and I think most members of my party would agree—that there is an urgent need for housing in this State. Any of us who feels that way cannot legitimately complain when a Bill is presented to enable further housing development to take place. The Minister has pointed out in his opening remarks that the purpose of this Bill is to deal with only one aspect of the activities of the National Building Agency, and that is the National Building Agency's activities in connection with industrial housing. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong but I think it is correct to say that the scope of the activities of the Agency does in fact extend far beyond that. They have by arrangement with local authorities an interest in the development of housing for local authorities. They also have an interest in housing for State bodies and other such concerns. But in this Bill we are dealing only with the question of housing for industrial purposes, and the Minister mentioned in his remarks that an increase in the amount of money required for that purpose is now urgently required. The Bill is for the purpose of extending the amount which may be advanced to the Agency for this purpose from £2 million to £5 million.

I can say that the Fine Gael Party take the view in relation to housing generally that there is an acute need for more houses in this country. I do not want to open a general debate on the housing situation. I am quite sure you would not allow me to do that, but I think I can say in passing that every one of us, no matter from which part of the country we come, no matter what our own particular interest or avocation is, is aware, and we are continually being made aware, of the need for more housing. That applies not only in the local authority sector and in the private sector but also in a very special way in the industrial sector. All of us will probably be aware of instances throughout rural Ireland where the advent of an industry or a factory in a particular area in some small town is always welcome but if that particular small town is fortunate enough to get an industry very often we immediately have the problem that there is not sufficient housing accommodation available there to absorb any increase in population which may take place as a result of employment in a particular industry.

I may be wrong in this, although I hope I am not. I think one of the problems which can be dealt with by the National Building Agency in relation to industrial development is precisely that problem. So far as I am concerned I think the money which the Minister wants, the authority to increase the amount of money available from £2 million to £5 million, should be made available to him. In the course of his statement here the Minister referred to this money as being urgently required.

There are just one or two points I should like the Minister to deal with when he is replying. As I understand the position the National Building Agency will, so to speak, take on an assignment, when requested by a particular industry, to provide houses in association with that industry in any particular area. I should like to know from the Minister how is the order of priority established by the Agency? If there are competing requests from industrialists, different industries or different parts of the country is it the object of the Agency to try to fulfil all demands made on them by the industry regardless of the geographical location of where the houses are required? If that is their position—and I imagine it would be their desire to fulfil all demands made on them— nevertheless they are only going to have a limited amount of money made available to them so how do they settle the question of priorities if there is a competition for their services? I should be glad if the Minister would give us some information about that.

The Minister indicated in the Dáil there was some comment with regard to the information available about the activities of the National Building Agency. On page 2 of the Minister's statement here today he said:

I have informed the Dáil that I intend to ask the Agency to publish an annual report giving full information about their activities and to arrange that this report will be available to the public.

I believe the Minister is right in adopting that attitude. Anybody responsible for spending public moneys voted by the Oireachtas should of course make the fullest possible information available to the public. I believe I am correct in saying that there was also comment in the other House in connection with the date of publication of the National Building Agency's reports and that on one occasion the situation arose where two annual reports became available at the same time. In addition to the Minister requesting the Agency to make the fullest possible information available in their reports and to have those reports available to the public he should do whatever is open to him to ensure that the reports are made available to the public as soon as possible after the close of each calendar year.

Apart from that I do not think I have anything else to say on the Bill. I am sure some Senators will have other points of view and will require further information. So far as I go it is right that this money should be made available. The establishment of the National Building Agency has the support of all shades of political opinion in this country. I do not know whether I am being too optimistic in this or not but I think the establishment of the agency certainly promises, if in fact it has not already happened in some instances, that in relation to some aspects of our housing problem in this country we will be able to cut a certain amount of corners and cut out a certain amount of red tape.

Mr. Honan

I am sure all the Members of the Seanad are well aware of the great necessity for an expansion in the housing field and we welcome any programmes that can be initiated by the various people who have responsibility for housing. I may say, as a member of two local authorities, when the National Building Agency was first mooted I had reservations about precisely what their functions would be. I saw them as a kind of semi-State body intervening between the Government and the local authorities. I had certain reservations about what they might do and what they might not do. There was an underlying fear that possibly they would eventually take over control of housing and that the purpose of local authorities as housing authorities would begin to be eroded or eventually would disappear. I must say from my experience in the matter and my knowledge of the great necessity for housing I had to adjust my views. In spite of my misgivings I must now acknowledge that the National Building Agency have done very valuable work in a field that local authorities would find it very hard to operate in.

We have in house building, from the local authority point of view, possibly a considerable amount of land purchase or compulsory purchase orders that we have to get through. The National Building Agency have come between us and what we might describe as red tape for the purpose of facilitating the quick building of acceptable type houses to meet very special purposes, whether they be in the industrial field or in some other field. Their limit has always been a lack of finance. I do not wish to say more than is necessary on this Bill but in my opinion the NBA are playing a very important role in the inbetween activities of what they can do and what the local authorities can do. They have facilitated the building of houses for industrial workers and industrial management that the councils could never have aspired to it in the same length of time.

Having had experience of both sides, it is my opinion that the NBA should be encouraged to go ahead with the work they are doing because they have done very important work and it is only now that they are getting recognition for that work. The suggestion of giving them increased capital is a very good one and I commend it to the House.

Having been a member of two local authorities, I have seen the work of the NBA in progress and in spite of my misgivings at the beginning, I am now convinced that they are playing a very important role and deserve the support of anybody who is interested in an extension of the housing programmes.

Mr. Crinion

The National Building Agency have fulfilled the role they were originally intended to fulfil. They have provided houses both for those engaged in industry and for State employees. I have known of many occasions on which a factory would be looking for a key man but having found him, he would be reluctant to take up the position if there was not a good house provided for him. The industry might have used up most of its financial resources in developing and could not be expected to provide money for housing at the particular time. It is in cases of that kind that the NBA were able to come to their aid and build whatever houses were necessary. The Agency have been a godsend to industries throughout the country. They have also meant a great deal to State employees, particularly members of the Garda Síochána for whom houses were provided in different areas. This meant that if a garda were transferred from a particular place where he had had a house provided for him, he would get the same sort of house in the area to which he was being assigned.

The National Building Agency have set a headline in cases where the private sector were not making any effort to come in. Once the Agency get started on a worthwhile project, private builders realise the demand there is for houses in the area and they follow suit. I am thinking of one place near Leixlip where the NBA were asked to build 60 houses but as soon as the project was started two private builders, realising the demand for housing in the area, went in and built quite a few houses there. Much the same sort of thing happened in Trim. The demand for houses there was very great because of the numbers of people who came to work in the town for the Board of Works and on the Boyne Drainage Scheme.

I should like to see local authorities making more use of the NBA in helping their own housing programmes, particularly in towns where there are industries.

A committee were set up recently to encourage emigrants to come home from England and other places but we cannot expect them to come back if houses are not readily available for them. In granting this money to the NBA, we are helping industries to encourage key men to come back when there is a need for them. Many English-based industries have been set up here and the management of these industries would like to be able to bring over Irish personnel already working for them in England to man the factories here and in these cases, also, the NBA will prove invaluable.

I suppose the biggest achievement that the NBA have had has been the Ballymun scheme. This has been described as a satellite town: it is probably one of the biggest prefabricated schemes in Europe. It was a tremendous undertaking to engage three builders to come together to do that job. We know what an advantage it has been to Dublin. It will relieve the housing situation to some extent in providing an efficient, quick system of building. I could not see an undertaking of that size or a building scheme completed in the time which it took to complete the Ballymun scheme. The Agency brought in a new idea of prefabrication in that scheme which, as I can see myself, has been followed by other builders both in Dublin and throughout the country.

As well as encouraging builders to build, they have set a headline in the new techniques in the light of cheapening the cost of production and showing a quick way of building which is, in some cases, a better system. At least they aim to be leaders in their field. Where they have seen some idea which is worthwhile abroad, they are not afraid to encourage it here. We all learn easier by example than by having to read or hear about a certain subject. I should like to recommend this Bill to the House in order to allocate extra money and to give the encouragement and the go-ahead to the NBA to continue the good work.

Mr. Walsh

Speaking as a member of a local authority, I welcome the present Bill. I should like to compliment the Minister on introducing it. The NBA are engaged in undertaking very big schemes at the present time. Something which impressed me about that Agency was the manner in which they could get work under way. We in the local authorities failed to do this. I should like to compliment the NBA on this.

The Minister said in the Dáil that he intends to ask the Agency to publish annual reports giving full details of their activities. I welcome this because too few of our people know all about the NBA and their activities. I compliment the Minister on this.

Some members spoke about the provision of houses for members of the Garda Síochána. This is something which the Garda Síochána would welcome very much. Moving about from county to county and from station to station, they find it difficult at times to get housing accommodation. The NBA are serving a very useful purpose.

Mr. Russell

I should like to add my voice to those who welcomed this Bill and to pay a tribute to the work of the NBA, particularly in the field of industry. I can speak with knowledge because of my association with the mining industry. I confirm the fact that the building of houses contiguous to the substantial mining operation in Tipperary has been a significant factor in inducing outside technical personalities to come to live in the area, and without such personnel it would have been impossible to carry on this particular industry which gives employment to 500 or 600 men.

I hope the work of the Agency will advance in Limerick shortly due to developments which we anticipate in the Shannon Estuary. I can think of no more appropriate setting for the work of the NBA than that of providing houses for key personnel for major industrial developments, including the establishment of a smelter in that area. It is obvious if we are having major industrial developments in rural areas we must have some agency other than the local authorities or private enterprise to supply much needed houses. Housing has now become a vital factor in the establishment and development of new industrial projects.

I should like to support wholeheartedly the purposes of this Bill. I suggest to the Minister that in the nonindustrial field the work of the NBA might be extended to include the army, if it does not already do so. We have the problem in Limerick in regard to the housing of military personnel. It is unfair to expect local authorities who are already in many cases overburdened in their endeavours to provide houses for their own citizens, to take on the burden of housing military personnel. I welcome the Bill wholeheartedly and assure the Minister that he can be sure of the support of all sides of the House.

Mr. Alexis FitzGerald

I join in supporting the proposals contained in this Bill. I have been impressed by what I have heard from all sides of the House. I personally have no way of forming a subjective judgment on the performance of the Agency except through the sort of information that was made available to us here by the speakers who have spoken from the different sides of the House. The idea is clearly an excellent one. It is not to be carping, but helpful, in employing such critical powers as I can bring to bear on this situation to say that there has been a bad situation from the point of view of making an assessment objectively, as distinct from subjectively, as to the efficiency of the operation up to now that, until the Minister had told the Dáil of his intentions for the future, information had not been made available to the public or to Members of the Dáil or of this House which would enable them to judge whether the resources made available to the Agency have been well applied and properly invested.

I have absolutely no reason to believe they have not been well invested or properly applied. I have no evidence about the matter. When the Second Reading of the Bill which it is proposed now to amend was introduced in 1963, at column 618 of the Official Report, the Minister introducing it stated:

I have in mind that from now on the agency will have available valuable and growing assets in the form of mortgages secured on houses for the construction of which it has advanced money. Indeed, I feel that in due course these assets should constitute acceptable security for the purpose of raising loans even without the backing of a State guarantee.

Recently, in response to a question asked by a Deputy in the Dáil as to certain aspects of this Agency—that question being the yield earned on the total capital employed—the answer given by the Minister to the House was to mean, in the light of the words used by the Minister when introducing the Second Stage of the Bill originally, that the yield is not applicable as this is a non-profit making organisation.

It may be that this organisation should be a non-profit making organisation if in fact this Agency are merely to provide subsidies where subsidies are needed. We should not have a limited company—not a public company—whose accounts have not been available to the public since the formation of this Agency. A private company concerned to make profit should be the instrument for administering this subsidy. If it were a profit-making agency and came to any group of financiers with the sense of their duties to the taxpayers whose moneys have alternative uses for them, the moneys would not be forthcoming if the financiers were told that they were not a profit-making organisation, apart from the fact that such a company should in fact be wound up under the Companies Act.

The Minister has said, and I am very encouraged indeed to hear it, that he intends—obviously having become concerned about this—to give fuller information in the future. I would have found it easier to be more enthusiastic in supporting the proposals, which in any case I do support, if at this stage the Minister had been able to give the information which is now available as to the performance of this Agency. From the Minister's statements which I have read with interest, this Agency seems to have a number of different functions. I share the view that has been expressed, particularly by Senator Russell, that the activities of the Agency should be extended to such matters as efficiently to provide accommodation for soldiers.

While this is so, I suggest—I am, I hope, being relevant but I shall have to abide by your ruling on this—that this might be reorganised so that there would be a company which were concerned to make a profit. A company which were concerned to administer subsidies and a company concerned to make profit would have different tests applied of their performance.

It might not be a company properly formed as a limited company at all. Incidentally, on this matter I would have thought that the Minister for Finance would have a considerable interest and indeed a duty here, because under section 7 of the 1963 Act it is provided that all moneys advanced to this Agency must be repaid by this Agency to the Central Fund. It is surprising to me that for so long public moneys have been made available in this way with less information made available to the public concerning them than a small limited company would be obliged to disclose to the public if this were a company registered in Britain.

I should like the Minister to give thought to the possible amendment of the Act so as to provide that the returns be made to him by this Agency would be not necessarily in the form complying with the Companies Acts but would contain distinctions between the different types of turnover, whether the money went to the firm or whether it went to the employee by mortgage. There are considerable sums being made available by the taxpayer, sums which have alternative uses for the benefit of the taxpayer, and we must always bear in mind in the interests of the taxpayer that these considerable sums are being provided to assist industry and for the establishment of industry. I have been an enthusiastic supporter of that policy since its inception and I think that perhaps we might be reaching the stage when a sort of cost benefit analysis might be in the interest of the public to be applied to the sums being invested, and if there are sums being advanced to firms, as it appears from the statements made to us, firms that are already receiving grants, firms already very well capitalised, I should like to see the benefit of skilled financiers being made available to the Agency. As to the arrangements made with regard to these sums, I do not see why the company should get the benefit of the growth in value of the buildings, built no doubt with great efficiency by this Agency. I think this interest should go to the community.

Mr. Gallanagh

I welcome this Bill because it shows the sincerity of the Government in trying to provide the necessary finance for the continuation of our expanding housing programme. I welcome it too because local authorities have discovered that the Building Agency are very important to them because due to a lack of contractors for building for local authorities there were many instances where builders undertook the building of houses and were unable to complete the schemes and left the local authority in a mess, but local authorities who use the Building Agency can be assured that their schemes will be completed and at a competitive cost.

Mr. K. Boland

There is not a lot for me to do except to thank Seanad Éireann for its reception of this Bill. I am glad that it has been unanimously agreed that the borrowing power of the National Building Agency should be extended for this purpose from £2 million to £5 million which is expected to be required within the next five years or so.

Senator O'Higgins asked how the Agency would decide the order of priority if there were a number of competing requests for the building of houses in the context of a limited amount of capital. So far this has not arisen. The Agency has been in a position to comply with any requests that were made for its services. It is, of course, to be hoped that this position will continue in the future. Of course it is possible to conceive circumstances in which it might be necessary to make a choice as between different proposals. There are no definite regulations laid down for the exercising of such a choice but I would imagine that the thing to do, if such an eventuality should arise, would be to base one's decision, first of all, on the order in which the requests were received, subject to the advice of a body such as the IDA with regard to the urgency of the different requests. However, it is something which has not arisen and which we hope will not arise. We hope it will be possible to comply with all requests that are made as it has been up to now.

It is true that there was an occasion on which the annual report was not issued at the proper time with the result that two annual reports were made on the same date. I explained in the other House that this was due to inadvertence. It was due to the fact that there happened to be a change in personnel in the Building Agency management at the time when this report should have been made. I am reasonably sure that will not happen again.

Again with regard to the question of the reports, it is true that the accounts have not been published up to now, but at the same time it is not strictly accurate to say that the information has not been available in regard to money expended. They have been laid on the Table of the two Houses of the Oireachtas so that they have been at least available to Members of the Oireachtas and of course they have been scrutinised by the Comptroller and Auditor General, with comments. Of course information could have been extracted by means of Dáil Questions, but it is now proposed to request the Agency to publish a report in future.

Senator Russell asked if it was possible for the Agency to build houses for Army personnel as well as for gardaí. No such request has been made up to the present, but the Agency are not precluded from providing such houses. If a request is made the Agency will look into it. However, the Department of Defence have got their own programme for the building of married quarters for Army personnel.

With regard to the question raised by Senator FitzGerald that the NBA have not been operating as a profit-making company, this is true. A decision had to be made as to whether to aim at providing houses at the lowest possible cost or with a view to making a profit. The Agency have been operating on the basis of providing accommodation at the lowest possible cost to the industries concerned and the individuals who are going to work in the industries, and personally I think that this was the correct decision to make.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and passed.