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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Jun 1979

Vol. 92 No. 6

Private Business. - Garda Síochána Bill, 1979: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Members of the House are no doubt already aware of the circumstances in which this Bill comes to be introduced, but it is right nevertheless that I should make a reference to those circumstances, if only for the record.

The Government decided on 19 January 1978 to remove from the office of Commissioner of the Garda Síochána the then holder of that office, Mr. Edmund P. Garvey, and on 20 January 1978 they decided to appoint Deputy Commissioner Patrick McLaughlin to succeed him. Mr. Garvey subsequently took legal proceedings which resulted in, amongst other things, a finding by the Supreme Court that the removal from office was null and void. This, of course, meant that Mr. Garvey was still legally Commissioner of the Garda Síochána and, since the law provides for only one Commissioner, it followed that Mr. Patrick McLaughlin did not hold that office or rank.

The judgments given in the Supreme Court make it clear that the right of the Government to remove a Commissioner from office is not questioned and that the Government were free, if for adequate reason they considered it necessary, to make a new decision removing Mr. Garvey from office, provided certain procedures were adopted.

The Government were satisfied that Mr. Garvey should not be allowed to remain in office but considered it right, as they did in January 1978, to give him the option of resigning. He availed himself of that option. In saying this, I should like to make it clear, as I did in the other House, that I am aware that he is reported in a newspaper as having said that he "retired" rather than "resigned". As far as I am concerned, nothing hinges on any distinction that might be thought to exist between those two terms—the position is that the solicitors acting for him used the word "resign" in the relevant letter to me and he himself used the word "retire". He has qualified for, and has been formally awarded, maximum pension and maximum gratuity.

His resignation was expressed to be with effect from, and was accepted as from 14 May and Mr. McLaughlin has been formally reappointed as Commissioner from the following day, namely 15 May.

There is, therefore, a need to validate actions of Mr. McLaughlin during the period of 16 months or so when he was carrying out the functions of Commissioner but when, as it now transpires, he did not hold the office. There is also a need to validate acts done by some others.

I intend to refer, in a few moments, to various kinds of acts or actions that would or might need validation. I believe that what I will be mentioning will in fact be, for practical purposes, a comprehensive list, but I cannot commit myself to a claim that it is comprehensive because, in the nature of things, it would be virtually impossible to be sure.

It might be suggested that this means that the House is being asked to validate something without an assurance that it has available to it complete details of what it is, or may be, validating by passing this Bill. I would like to make two points in reply.

The first point I would make is that I believe that everything that could reasonably be thought to be of possible interest to the House will in fact have been mentioned and I can assure the House that that is certainly my intention.

The second point is the more important one and it is this. There is no question in this Bill of the House being asked to give, directly or indirectly, any element of support to the Government's decision in relation to Mr. Garvey or to any aspect of that decision. The passing of the Bill would not be, and could not be interpreted as being, an endorsement of the Government's decisions or actions. Furthermore—and this is the essential issue—the passing of the Bill would not be something done for the benefit of the Government, or for my benefit as Minister for Justice. The House is being asked to approve of the Bill on one basis only, and that is that it ought to be enacted in the public interest and so that the interests of the community as a whole will not suffer.

To put that another way, the arguments for validation are independent of the merits of what occurred in relation to the former Commissioner. He, for his part, is pursuing his claim in the High Court, as he is entitled to do. However, given that he has his right to pursue any claim he wishes to make, and that the Bill does not seek to interfere in any way with that right, there is no valid reason why the community should have to suffer through consequential defects in other areas. More specifically, there is no valid reason why a consequential defect in, for instance, the assignment of a superintendent to a particular district should be allowed to affect the legal effectiveness of the ordinary discharge by that superintendent, or by the gardaí under his direction, of the duties that they carry out for the protection of the public.

I submit, therefore, that while no doubt the House would wish to be as fully informed as possible of what problems could arise in the absence of validation, the approach to the solution of those problems should not be on the basis of validating specific actions but should be on the basis that the validation should be as comprehensive as possible and subject only to the constitutional rights of anybody who might be adversely affected by a validation.

It could be suggested that it is possible that there is some person—I say "person" but of course it could be suggested that there may be more than one—who at present stands convicted of a crime and who, without this Bill, could have that conviction set aside, and that this Bill will take away that opportunity from him. To that I should like to say, first, that neither I nor anybody else can say if a situation exists where, because of what has occurred, some conviction or convictions could in the absence of this Bill be set aside: nobody, not even a judge, could say that because only a court properly convened and adjudicating on the issue could give an authoritative decision. Secondly, nobody can say whether, in the event that such a situation existed, this Bill would alter it. It appears clear that whether it would or not depends—and certainly may depend —on whether such an alteration would conflict with a constitutional right, and only a court could decide that. However, the point I put to the House is this. If in the course of day-to-day administration of justice a person who has been found guilty by the ordinary procedures of law must be allowed to escape the consequences of his convictions because of something that has nothing even remotely to do with the strength of the evidence against him, that is a situation that we as a community must accept under the law as it stands. To say we must accept it if we have to is, in a way, to state the obvious; but it is one thing to accept what we cannot change, but an entirely different thing for the Oireachtas to go out of its way to make exceptions that it need not make, exceptions that would suggest that there was some merit in the case that such a convicted person would be making to a court. In short, if in fact there is a loophole and if in fact this Bill can close it—and there are two "ifs"—then I submit that the Bill ought to close it in the interests of justice, because the community and not only the individual have a major stake in the administration of justice. That is the basis on which I submit the Bill to the House.

I will state frankly to the House that, for making this argument and referring to unmeritorious defences, I have been accused elsewhere of trying to pass judgment on particular cases. I deny this flatly. We are speaking of people who have been found guilty, not by this House or by me or by the Garda Síochána but by the courts. The House by passing this Bill, is simply saying that, as far as it is concerned, a person found guilty of crime on evidence that satisfied the court beyond reasonable doubt, evidence the accuracy of which is not being challenged, should not escape the consequences simply and solely because Mr. Patrick McLaughlin's appointment as Commissioner was invalid. If there are people who really believe that the Oireachtas should make an exception from this Bill specifically to enable that to happen, all I can say is that I believe that that view is wholly unjustified and that it does not take account of the rights of the public. The people concerned, I repeat, have been shown to be guilty. If they were to evade the consequences it would be on grounds wholly unrelated to the evidence of their guilt. I do not think I need labour the point further.

One of the most important functions in respect of which validation is necessary concerns the appointment of new members to the force. Every new member has to be appointed by the Commissioner—the precise terminology is "appointed and enrolled"—and it is, therefore, necessary to have validated all the appointments of new members during the period in question.

The Commissioner is also responsible for promotions up to the rank of inspector, and it is necessary to have those promotions validated. Appointments to the rank of superintendent and higher ranks are a matter for the Government and, accordingly, the question of validating those appointments does not arise except for one particular appointment to which I shall refer later. I should, perhaps, elaborate just a little on this question of promotion to superintendent or higher ranks because questions were raised in the other House about alleged changes in promotion panels used in connection with promotions to superintendent or chief superintendent. May I, therefore, say that I am not dealing here, any more than I did in the other House, with that issue? The establishment of panels is an administrative arrangement to assist the Government and has no statutory basis. Any question about their operation is, therefore, irrelevant to this Bill. I just want to say, for the record, that if, on another occasion, it becomes necessary or appropriate to discuss that particular issue, and if I am not inhibited by requirements of confidentiality or the like, I shall be quite willing to comment on the matter in question—but, as I have said, not on this Bill.

While on the subject of appointments, may I invite the attention of the House to an important distinction that is implicit in the terms of the Bill? That is that, while both the appointment of new members and the promotions to sergeant and inspector rank will be validated, the Bill, in so far as Mr. McLaughlin himself is concerned, validates only his actions, not his original appointment. This explains why the Bill contains a reference to his pay and conditions of service in respect of the 16-month period but does not do so in respect of the new members or newly-promoted sergeants or inspectors whose appointment or promotion, as the case may be, is in question. Once those appointments and promotions are validated, the entitlement of the members concerned to the appropriate salary and conditions of service follows as a matter of course. Mr. McLaughlin will not, however, be appointed retrospectively as Commissioner and, in the absence of a special provision, he could in certain circumstances suffer some diminution of pension rights. The reference to his pay is probably unnecessary but it is included as a precautionary measure and also because it would seem inappropriate to include a reference to conditions of service without including a reference to pay.

What I have referred to up to now concerns the validity of appointments within the force. There could also be some consequential matters. The first one I propose to mention arises from the fact that the Commissioner may, under section 3 of the Offences Against the State Act, 1939, give a written authorisation to a named superintendent to exercise certain functions that are primarily vested by that Act in chief superintendents. In practice, the only function of significance in this context is the extension from a maximum of 24 hours to a maximum of 48 hours of the period during which a person may be detained under section 30 of the 1939 Act. It has been the practice to grant such authorisations to superintendents attached to Border districts and to superintendents attached to divisional headquarters. I said in the other House—I am sure I need not emphasise that I state it as an opinion, not as a fact—that there is no injustice to anybody in the retrospective validation of those authorisations since they are authorisations that would have been granted, in accordance with well-established practice, irrespective of who was Commissioner, and the invalidity of Mr. McLaughlin's original appointment has no material relevance to the decisions taken by the relevant superintendents.

It might, perhaps, be inferred that, in referring to extensions from 24 to 48 hours of the period of detention of certain arrested persons, I am suggesting that statements made by persons during that period can now be seen to have been invalidly taken and to have been inadmissible in evidence and that, therefore, any conviction based on such an admission is invalid and that I am proposing to validate it. Let me therefore make it clear that I intend no such implications. Once a statement is voluntary, its exclusion, even if it has been taken irregularly, is a matter of judicial discretion and the courts have used that discretion to distinguish between irregularities that they thought were deliberate or due to negligence on the one hand and, on the other hand, ones that were inadvertent. They have admitted statements taken in the latter circumstances. I have, therefore, no reason whatsoever to think that the validity of any such convictions is in any way at issue. What I think may be at issue is the detention itself as distinct from the statement, but there again any irregularity was clearly involuntary and, on the merits, ought to be validated if possible.

In theory, there could have been similar situations in relation to the prohibition under the 1939 Act of certain types of public meetings but this did not arise in practice.

The authorisations I have been referring to are formally given by the Commissioner to certain superintendents under specific statutory authority. There are other situations in which there is no question of a specific statutory authorisation of a particular superintendent but in which, nevertheless, there could be room for argument arising from the fact that the assignment of a superintendent to his district took place during the period we are referring to. There are various provisions in statutes or in the Rules of Court or other statutory instruments whereby applications or notices of one kind or another are to be given to the superintendent of the district in which the person making the relevant application or giving the relevant notice lives or has a premises. The superintendent, in certain cases, has power to grant or refuse certain permits, certificates or the like, or to object in court to the granting or renewal of certain certificates or licences.

Although the assignment of a superintendent to a particular district is an administrative matter and is not referred to in statutes or statutory regulations, and although I think it could be cogently argued that a superintendent who takes up duty in charge of a district is, by that very fact, the superintendent for that district, it is clear that somebody wishing to challenge a superintendent's decision might argue that the assignment flows from, or involves, the exercise of the commissioner's general statutory function of directing and controlling the force. Consequently, if only to avoid sterile argument, those matters have to be covered also.

Reverting for a moment to functions exercised by the Commissioner, as distinct from persons deriving authority from him, I would mention also by-laws or rules which he is authorised to make under the Road Traffic Acts. I am informed that one set of traffic by-laws was made in the period in question relating to taxi stands in Dublin and one set of local and temporary rules relating to parking restrictions at Knock, County Mayo. If the taxi by-laws were invalid, the previously existing by-laws would still be in force since they would not have been validly repealed.

I do not think it necessary to refer in any detail to disciplinary decisions by Mr. McLaughlin as these are internal Garda matters and anybody who might feel aggrieved will be able to decide for himself what action if any he should take. As far as I am concerned, I believe that the correct decision for the Oireachtas to make is what I outlined at the beginning of my speech, that is to say, validate if and in so far as it is possible.

The Bill, as the House will have noticed, refers to things done by Mr. McLaughlin or by any other person. The expression "any other person" is, of course, limited by the context in which it appears—the validity conferred by the section can have no application otherwise than to acts which were invalid by reason of the fact that Mr. McLaughlin's appointment was not effectual. As the House is aware, the word "person", under the standard rules of interpretation, includes a body of persons and, in the present context, it includes the Government in that the Government, in January 1978, appointed a new Deputy Commissioner when, as it then appeared, Mr. McLaughlin had become Commissioner. Under the relevant statutory instrument, there was provision for only two Deputy Commissioners so it appears that the new appointment needs to be validated.

Another example of what is covered by "any other person" is a local authority putting up road signs—their functions in that respect are, by law, exercised subject to the consent of the Commissioner. The expression "any other person" is also intended to cover, if necessary, acts done in the course of their duty by those people I have already mentioned, namely those admitted to the force during the last 16 months, those who were promoted to the rank of sergeant or inspector in that period or those of chief superintendent or superintendent rank who were assigned to their division or district during that period. Naturally, only a small number of the official actions of any of those persons could come into question in any event, since most of their work does not consist of the exercise of statutory powers that might be open to be challenged in the present context. Moreover, in so far as such acts may need to be covered, it seems likely that they would be covered by the validation being accorded to Mr. McLaughlin's acts, on the basis that, once his acts were validated, everything that flows from them is automatically validated. There might, however, be room for some argument about that, so it seems safer and simpler to rely on the direct validation that the Bill proposes to give to them as things done by "any other person".

There is one other point in the text which I think may call for explanation, namely the words in brackets at the beginning of subsection (1) of section 1, referring to the satisfying of any condition precedent to the exercise or performance of a power or duty. This is included because a number of functions of the Commissioner may be exercised only on the basis that he is satisfied as to some factor or that he is of a certain opinion or that it appears to him that a particular situation exists. For example, he must be satisfied that an applicant for admission to the force is of good character or that an applicant for a taxi licence is a fit and proper person to hold such a licence. Although the satisfying of conditions of that kind naturally involves his considering the matter and reaching an opinion or conclusion and in that sense involves his doing something, there appeared to be some possibility of argument as to whether the phrase "everything done" would by itself clearly cover it and for that reason it was thought prudent to include those words that I have mentioned.

I have given what I think are the main examples of matters needing validation, though the House will appreciate that, in the nature of things, the list does not purport to be a complete one. I would like to make it clear, however, that although I referred earlier on to possible issues arising in criminal proceedings instituted during the period in question, this does not mean that I am suggesting that that is a matter of much practical significance. In fact I do not think, nor do the Garda authorities think, that it is likely to arise in relation to the conduct of criminal proceedings except in the sense that, in some cases, which I hope and believe would be a very small number, a question might be raised about, for instance, the authority to arrest. The reason I say that I am not aware that the issue would arise otherwise is that legal proceedings in the more serious cases are brought by the Director of Public Prosecutions and even in a number of less serious cases the DPP may also be the prosecutor. In those cases where a member of the force brings a prosecution himself, he is not, as a matter of law, acting on behalf of the Commissioner nor is it the Commissioner who, in practice, gives directions as to whether such proceedings should be brought.

The member is, therefore, not in any way acting as agent of the Commissioner. I suppose there might be some few cases where a person was convicted of assaulting a garda, or something of that kind, and where a point could be raised that it was one of the young recruits whose induction may have been invalid. Any such case is one which, as far as I am concerned, is wholly without merit and if the convicted person—if there be any such—believes he can evade the consequences, he will have to do so on his own initiative.

I have already indicated that, in asking the House to approve of this Bill, I am not in any way asking it to endorse any aspects of the decisions of the Government in relation to the former Commissioner. Those decisions are not at issue and I could not undertake to go into any detail about them, not just because they are irrelevant to the argument for validation but, more important, because certain important related issues are before the High Court and, in accordance with long established practice, we ought to avoid issues that are sub judice. In brief, if I were to embark on any discussion of the merits, I would be open to be accused of attempting to conduct a trial on an issue that is already before the High Court. This is an area in which I cannot say, with any confidence, precisely what aspects are likely to be in question in the High Court but, since there is a claim for damages, I have to assume that any aspect of the entire circumstances preceding or relating to the Government decision of January 1978 could become relevant to the proceedings.

I did, however, give to the other House some factual statements, which are not intended to be in any sense an argument justifying any decision or action of the Government. The Government, needless to say, believe that they were, in fact, justified, but all I intend to do here, in the remarks I now propose to make, is to correct an impression that in the legal proceedings taken against them the Government had decided that they had no case to make except to rely on the strict letter of the law and that on that issue they lost, but this is not the position.

As long ago as 31 January 1978, the Taoiseach publicly stated—his statement was made in the other House—that the Government lost confidence in Mr. Garvey as Commissioner. Mr. Garvey took a legal action in the High Court. Counsel on both sides agreed that, instead of embarking on possibly protracted litigation in the High Court on issues that might prove irrelevant, it would be in the interests of all parties to get an initial authoritative ruling on what both sides agreed was a preliminary issue, namely whether the Government had, as a matter of fact, unqualified authority to dismiss a Commissioner without notice and without giving reasons. To ascertain this, three specific, agreed questions were put to the High Court and, on appeal, to the Supreme Court.

In the event, the Supreme Court not only answered the questions, but decided the substantive issue as well. It is perfectly clear that, had they answered the preliminary questions in the only other way open to them, they would likewise, in that instance, directly or by necessary implications, have dealt with the substantive action also. Since counsel on both sides had agreed that the issue being determined was a preliminary issue, it is clear that, somewhere along the line, there was some misunderstanding. What is perhaps more immediately relevant here is that the Supreme Court interpreted the legal pleadings made on behalf of the Government as tantamount to an admission of allegations made in Mr. Garvey's statement of claim.

In the context of the particular case before the court, the Government are, of course, bound by the decision of the Supreme Court, that is to say, bound to accept that the particular pleading must be construed in that way. I must, however, make it clear that it had not been intended to be read in that way and that, read in that way, it does not correspond with the facts, because the Government do not at all concede that the assertions in the statement of claim present a true picture.

That is all I want to say on that issue—in other words, I am not here making any claim whatsoever regarding the merits of the case that I, on behalf of the Government, will be making on an appropriate occasion. I simply say, as I said in the other House, that I have a case to make and that I intend to make it when the time comes. That is only another way of saying what I said in the other House, namely that there was a background to what occurred but whether that background did, or did not, justify what occurred is a matter on which I am making no claim and producing no evidence at this stage. I think it essential to refer to it, however, if only because I did so in the other House and because it led to certain comments that are relevant in this House.

Amongst the things suggested in the other House was that there was no background until I became Minister for Justice and when, by way of interjection, I denied that, I was immediately accused of attacking my predecessor. As my predecessor is a Member of this House, I think it right to make my position clear. As far as I am concerned, my statement that there was a background means nothing more than that I have a case to make which I intend to make if, as and when the need arises. It is not a claim of justification. That there was a background is a matter of fact, not opinion and is, of itself, a non-contentious fact.

Likewise, it is a matter of fact, provable by documentation that part of that background extended backwards to my predecessor's time, and his colleagues in the other House were wrong in asserting otherwise. I am passing no judgment on anything done, or not done, by my predecessor in that respect, any more than I am making any defence for anything done, or not done, by myself. These things will have to await another day. What I said was said on a factual basis, in reply to allegations that were untrue. My predecessor, Senator Cooney, may have forgotten what it is I am referring to when I say that certain aspects of the background extended back to his time. I am, of course, prepared to facilitate him by showing him, privately, certain papers. He will, I am sure, be aware that I would be willing to do that anyway and the only reason I say it here publicly is to ensure that no Member of this House would think that I am taking an unfair advantage.

In the meantime, however, I repeat that I do not intend anything that I have said to be, in any way whatsoever, an evaluation of anything done, or not done, by the Government or myself, and likewise I do not intend anything I have said to be a commentary on anything done, or not done, by my predecessor. The time for evaluation will come on a later occasion and is not now.

I conclude by saying that the Bill is put forward to meet a need that clearly has arisen and on that basis I commend the Bill to the House.

First of all, I should say that there is certainly a situation existing that requires the quick passage of this legislation and as far as the Members from the Fine Gael side of this House are concerned, the Minister may take it that the Bill has our full support. I can also safely say that this is most unusual legislation that the House has been presented with in this term. Indeed, for people who have been in the House longer, and for people who will remain in the House beyond this term, I dare say that you will wait many a long day before you will see legislation like this again.

There are two aspects to this matter that we must consider; first of all, the Bill itself, its content, which is very short, and its purpose, which is very simple. I can say that we are now satisfied with the content of the Bill, particularly since the Minister introduced in the Dáil a new subsection to section 1. That should get over any difficulties which might have presented themselves. I might also say that the Minister mentioned, in his address to this House, that he did not wish to deny anybody a meritorious defence. I accept that completely and I also accept the necessity for the legislation.

There is one thing I would ask and that is that the areas of responsibility of any commissioner of the Garda are wide-ranging and quite enormous and I feel that there is every possibility that, at some stage in the future, problems may present themselves because of this situation. I would recommend that the commissioner and his staff spare no effort to go back through all the acts committed by them and see whether any of them need to be re-ordered, or redone. It is highly desirable that we do not have a great number of people raising this new possible defence in court cases. I read the Dáil debate and sympathised with the view that perhaps a schedule of acts committed by the commissioner should have been included in this Bill. I appreciate that his areas of responsibility are so wide-ranging that that would have been very difficult. I recommend that everything he has done be examined over a period of time and anything that needs to be put right, even if it is in doubt, should be put right as soon as possible. This is all I want to say about the nature of the Bill itself.

There is another aspect to it; that is the background. When I refer to the background, I do not refer to the background in inverted commas that the Minister has referred to here and in the Dáil. I refer to the general background that gave rise to this legislation. The first thing we must say, and put it on the mat as clearly as it can be put, is that this legislation was not caused by a decision of the Supreme Court. This legislation was caused by a decision that, we understand, the Government took in January of 1978 and all the difficulties we have had flowed directly from that.

I come to some other points that have been made by the Minister in relation to the Supreme Court. He used the expression in the Dáil—I am glad that he did not use it here—that perhaps the Government were hard done by by the Supreme Court. I am sure that is not what the Minister meant to convey. There are matters to which I will be returning in relation to the legal advice which the Minister received, the misunderstandings that took place in regard to the nature of pleadings in the court procedure, the misunderstandings that took place in regard to the question of whether a preliminary point on a substantive issue was put to the Supreme Court or the High Court the first day, and the misunderstanding, or the bad advice that the Government received in January, 1978—presumably from the Attorney General's Office—as to whether or not they were entitled to dismiss Mr. Garvey in the manner in which they did. All in all, it seems indeed that the Minister was very hard done by—that is, if we are to accept his claim, by implication at least, that it was not the Government who were wrong at any stage, but his legal advisers. It seems that there are sufficient legal advisers in the Government for them to be more alive to certain facts over which the Minister now asks us to shed tears for him.

The Minister has, in the course of his address to this House, and again in the Dáil, made reference to the fact that the background is irrelevant so far as this Bill is concerned. In his own speech today he says, "In asking the House to approve of this Bill, I am not in any way asking it to endorse any aspects of the decisions of the Government in relation to the former Commissioner". That is fine, I accept that, but he goes on to say "Those decisions are not at issue and I could not undertake to go into any detail about them, not just because they are irrelevant to the argument for validation but, more important, because certain important related issues are before the High Court and, in accordance with long established practice, we ought to avoid issues that are sub judice”.

There are two points there. The first one is that the background is not relevant to this. On Committee Stage of a Bill like this, it may not be relevant to discuss the necessity for the Bill, but I do not accept that argument in relation to Second Stage. We have a right, not only a right but a duty and responsibility, to consider the background to this; why it became necessary. We are talking here about the removal of a public servant of nearly 40 years' standing and whether or not the Government had the right to remove him as they did; whether they were entitled to or not; whether, being entitled, they did it in the right way or not, are all matters which must be considered by this House. It is not only that we have a right, we have a responsibility to the people who have elected us, to discuss this matter and know the background to it. I know the Minister has said there will be another day. Unfortunately, in this House there will not be another day. There will be in the Dáil. But even given that, it is still important that we consider the background to the case.

One thing that has not emerged from all of this débâcle is an admission from the Government that they were wrong. At every stage they said they were right, they were hard done by in the Supreme Court. They were hard done by because they got bad legal advice, they say. They were not wrong and they have not said that it will not happen again. I will come to the Government's attitude to public servants in other particular respects later, but it is important that we take that matter as it stands. It is relevant, it must be considered and we have a responsibility to consider it. As to whether or not we should not consider the matter in the House because by convention we do not discuss matters which are regarded as sub judice, again I think that the Minister has—I do not say intentionally, but certainly by implication—misled the House in this respect. The truth is that to recite the facts or the background to a case is not in any way to offend the convention of this House or to offend the sub judice rule. The idea behind the principle of not discussing matters which are sub judice is that you risk offending the dignity of the court and may be found to be in contempt of court when you comment to such an extent that you try to influence the court. Reciting the background to the case is no offence to that principle.

The Minister is somebody whom I like and have some respect for, but I regret to say that the Minister is using this as a guise to avoid telling us the real background to this case. I believe the background is very simple, that we all know it already, and that none of us will be taken by surprise when we hear at a future stage that there was a background to it that none of us knew about. The fact is that we all know the background. The Minister is using this sub judice rule now to avoid facing up to the responsibility, in dealing with this Bill, of giving us the full background to it.

What do we know about this Bill, or about the background? We know, first of all, that for a long time before Mr. Garvey was removed from office—indeed going back even before the last general election campaign started—from any of us who knew gardaí, that Mr. Garvey was going to be removed from office if the Fianna Fáil Party assumed office. I accept what the Minister says, in the Dáil and here, that he did not tell that to anybody. He may not have expressly said so; he may not have even impliedly said so himself, but someone somewhere maybe did not say it, but a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse.

The indications were there, and members of the Garda Síochána knew about it and Fianna Fáil canvassers knew about it. I can understand if it was an isolated remark that was made by somebody who in the course of the heat of a general election campaign might make a comment like that, but it was far too widespread and well known and too widely rumoured for there not to be some truth behind it. As I say, I do not blame the Minister for that. I believe that, in some way, the Government, or their representatives, were used by the Garda Representative Body. I believe that they complained and they may have had cause for complaint, I do not know, but I do know that someone somewhere said it in sufficient time for every guard who was canvassed in this country to be told when they had their complaints about Mr. Garvey that if Fianna Fáil got back into office, Mr. Garvey would go. That is a fact and nobody can deny it.

In relation to events, subsequent to Fianna Fáil taking office, we know from public utterances, some from the Minister, some from the Taoiseach, that there was a background, that there were questions asked, that matters were put between the Minister and Mr. Garvey. We know, also, that the Minister met with Mr. Garvey apparently two hours before he was sacked and was invited to resign. We know that Mr. Garvey declined the invitation and we know that he was removed from office two hours later. We do not know how much he was told before then. We know that the Minister, or the Taoiseach more importantly, has said that Mr. Garvey should have known that he was going to be sacked, should have known that he was going to be asked to resign. What we do not know is that he did know.

That is an important matter, and it is particularly important in view of the fact that on 31 January last, the Taoiseach was asked in the Dáil by Deputy FitzGerald as to the questions of natural justice that arose in this matter. Did Mr. Garvey know? Was it true that he was given two hours' notice? What is the position about this? The Taoiseach did not say that he either got, or he did not get, two hours' notice. What he did say is that Mr. Garvey must have been aware for some time. One would think that the Taoiseach, in a matter as important as this, could have come out unequivocally in the Dáil and said, "Mr. Garvey knew," or "Mr. Garvey did not know", so far as the Government were concerned. Mr. Garvey should have known, and must have known, because everybody in the country knew. That, in so far as it goes, is fine, but I would like to know whether Mr. Garvey was told before that, whether he had any notice of it. We have this extraordinary situation about the pleadings in the High Court, that the Minister, Deputy Collins, accepts that the pleadings were there. He, unfortunately, regrets that their replying pleadings did not represent the intention of the Government and that the Government were hard done by. We will come to that in a minute. We do know that no one in Government has said that Mr. Garvey got anything other than two hours' notice.

We know, as well, that there was no question of misconduct on Mr. Garvey's part. The Taoiseach said that himself. They were going to grant him his pension rights. He would not have been entitled to his pension rights if there were misconduct, so we know there was no misconduct. We know that the Taoiseach, or the Government, lost confidence in him; we do not know why. We know, from Mr. Garvey's statement of claim again, that at some stage before the day that Mr. Garvey was asked to resign, the Minister met with Mr. Garvey and told Mr. Garvey that there were certain complaints from the Garda Representative Body, not from the Government. Mr. Garvey was asked for his comments and he commented and was told that there would be an inquiry, or there might be an inquiry. We know, so far as Mr. Garvey is concerned, that there was not an inquiry. We know that Mr. Garvey was not invited to this inquiry if it took place. We know that Mr. Garvey was not given an opportunity to defend himself. After that, what do we know? We know that between June 1977, when this Government assumed office, and January, 1978, when Mr. Garvey was removed from office, that the speculation about Mr. Garvey's tenure in office continued and was commented on and it was widely rumoured that he might not last. We know that went on to such an extent that The Irish Times, in its editorial on 8 September 1977, made comment on the fact. I would like to read this into the record of the House and to ask the Minister some questions arising from it. On that day The Irish Times editorial said:

Fianna Fáil...have already set off with that well-known manoeuvre— weaseling. In "non-attributable" conversations they have recently, for example, tried to get newspapers to do for one of their Ministers what that Minister should do for himself either by direct action or by persuasion.

A public servant is involved; a simple order or request from Minister to public servant is in question. The Minister concerned could, of course, make a speech about it. But he hopes that the newspapers will do his devious work for him.

There was no response from the Government Information Services in the days afterwards to The Irish Times about that.

I would like to ask the Minister, on any occasion about that time, in fact from June 1977 to 8 September 1977, did he, or anyone in his Department, or anyone in his Government, or associated with it, or any agent of his Department or Government, get in touch with, or speak with, any political correspondent, or any newspaper man, in relation to this and suggest to him that he should publish something in relation to Mr. Garvey, or these public servants, in the newspapers? Does the Minister regard The Irish Times editorial as totally unfounded? If it is, it would be scurrilous and should have received some response from the Government. I would be grateful if the Minister could indicate—if he does not have immediate knowledge of it himself—whether he would look into the matter and let this House or the Dáil know, at some stage in the future, whether there is any background of truth to what was suggested by The Irish Times on 8 September 1977.

I turn now to matters on which I would not normally spend any great deal of time in regard to legislation like this, or, indeed, any law case, that is, the question of the procedures that continued in the High Court and in the Supreme Court and the pleadings of which the Minister has spoken. I am obliged to spend time on it because, as I have already said, the Minister has devoted a considerable amount of his address to this House, and in the Dáil, to the question of the procedures.

First of all, for the benefit of those people who are not conversant with the nature of legal pleadings, I explain in a very simple, quick way, how they work. Pleadings are documents in which the issues in a case are set forth in a simple and clear fashion. There can be cases which are highly complex and difficult and cases which are simple, but, in all cases, the lawyers involved are obliged to file documents which crystallise the issues between the parties. Even in the most complex action it is amazing how simple the pleadings can be. A simple statement as to what the issue is can be set forth. For example, if I complain that Senator McDonald's dog bit me and I go to sue him, I would set forth in my statement of claim that Senator McDonald's dog bit me. I should also say that I suffered personal injuries as a result. Senator McDonald in reply to that, in his defence, is obliged to respond directly to the issues that I have raised in my statement of claim. He would be obliged to respond, if he said that his dog did not bite me, to my statement of claim by saying that his dog did not bite Senator Molony's leg and Senator Molony did not suffer any injuries. If he fails to say that the dog did not bite me, Senator McDonald is taken, automatically, as having admitted the fact that the dog bit me. Senator McDonald may have the view that the dog bit me but that I did not suffer any injuries—that I went home and cut my leg with a knife. If he takes that view, he simply says in his defence "David Molony did not suffer the injuries he complained of." The court then takes it that Senator McDonald's dog bit David Molony's leg and David Molony suffered no personal injuries and that is the issue to be decided by the court.

In this case, as in every other case, when you fail to deny an allegation set out in a statement of claim, any tupenny-halfpenny law student will tell you that it is automatically admitted. Mr. Garvey, in his statement of claim, set our some background to the case. There are certain things he set out quite specifically and simply. One of them is that he met the Minister on this occasion; that the Minister related to him complaints, or allegations, or whatever came from the Garda Representative Body; that Mr. Collins indicated that there be an inquiry. Mr. Garvey went on to complain specifically, in his statement of claim, that he was not given notice of his dismissal. He did, of course, say that he was dismissed; that he was not given notice except for those two hours; that he was not given reasons for his dismissal and not given an opportunity to defend himself, and that, because of all these things, he was denied the rights of natural justice and fundamental rights that should have been his. The simple fact and truth is that when the Government set about filing their defence, they did not deny any of that. They simply said they were entitled to dismiss Mr. Garvey. It leaves me in a state of utter disbelief that the Minister, or certainly his legal advisers, or any member of this Government with any legal experience, could not have understood the consequences of filing such a defence.

The Minister has come into this House today and he has blamed the legal advisers—he has not blamed them directly; he said there was a misunderstanding, that it was not intended that the Supreme Court should interpret things in that way. He said in the Dáil on 30 May:

As I have said, the court found that the defence pleadings did not constitute a sufficient denial of the various assertions made in the plaintiff's statement of claim and, consequently, that the defence pleadings must be construed as an acceptance of them.

Then he went on to say:

To say that particular pleadings must be construed in a particular way, is not to say that such a construction corresponds with the intentions of the Government or of counsel who drafted the pleadings on the Government's behalf.

——the suggestion being that they were hard done by; that there is a story behind all this; that through fumbling—and I say fumbling, because anybody with any legal experience would know that if you do not deny something in a defence case, the indirect allegation stated in the claim is automatically admitted—the Government's case was not put properly. The truth is that the allegation could not be denied; the truth is that Mr. Garvey got no notice, that he was not given reasons for his dismissal, and that he was not given an opportunity to defend himself. They draw this veil across the issue here—that the Supreme Court did not understand; that it is a mistake, that they did not mean to say that at all; it was something else they meant, but the Supreme Court could not see it. That is nonsense. It was without justification and I will wait with interest to see what background could have been put in a legal form in the defence.

I can assure the Minister that he will not, in any way, breach a convention of this House, or offend the principle of not discussing matters which are sub judice. He can answer the three questions: Was Mr. Garvey given reasonable notice? Not, did he hear the rumours that he was going to be sacked, but was he given notice by the people responsible for his removal from office? Was he given reasons for the dismissal? Finally, was he given an opportunity to defend himself?

Those are the issues that are before this House today. They are the issues before the High Court and the Supreme Court and issues that were ignored by the Government—they say by a mistake or some misunderstanding, but the fact is that they were ignored. Another incredible point made is that it was a preliminary point that went to the High Court and subsequently was appealed to the Supreme Court.

The Minister said in the Dáil that Mr. Garvey's advisers came to the Government's advisers and said to them that there was a preliminary point here and asked if they could go to the High Court on it because that would determine the issue. What that was going to determine I do not know, but the Minister said if Mr. Garvey lost in the courts there and then that he could not have another bite of the cherry. But the Minister implied here—and I believe his senior counsel said after the Supreme Court hearing— that if Mr. Garvey lost he could not go further, but if the Government lost they could have another bite of the cherry. It is like tossing a coin—harps I win and tails you lose.

What was put to the Supreme Court was very simple. Mr. Garvey set out in his statement of claim his complaints. which I have outlined already. The Government in their defence said they were entitled to dismiss Mr. Garvey. That was the basic issue, apart from the damages aspect which has yet to be dealt with, and there was no other issue. The Minister had other things to say but for some extraordinary reason he did not say them and the Supreme Court, counsel and everybody else misinterpreted what the Government intended to say. That issue was put to the High Court.

I cannot understand how the Minister can come into the House today and say that was a preliminary point. Certainly the case was being dealt with in a preliminary fashion in that once the pleadings were closed it emerged that the issue was very simple and straightforward. When the Government said nothing about the defence it became quite clear that there was only one issue involved. They had not denied a word in the defence about not giving notice, reason or an opportunity to Mr. Garvey to defend himself. The issue was dealt with in a preliminary fashion more quickly than the ordinary case would be dealt with. It went before the High Court and the Government lost. In my humble submission they had to lose. It went before the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court confirmed the view of the High Court. What other matter could have been discussed by the High Court or Supreme Court apart from the issue of damages? The substantive issue was clear. It was dealt with in a preliminary fashion but it was no preliminary point to a case like that. The simple truth is that once the Supreme Court and the High Court made their decision in the matter there was nothing else to be discussed and that was the end of the matter.

I do not blame the Minister for the way the Government are handling this Bill; I believe he is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. He has a situation on his hands that must be rectified. We approve of the necessity to do that and we support this measure for that reason. This Government, extraordinarily enough, have been accused of suffering from inertia, as suffering from procrastination and as being a Government unable and unwilling to govern. Of all the criticisms they have received over the past two years that is the most outstanding one. In the instances of removing from office public servants in whom they either do not have confidence or do not like, they have been a whopping success. They have been decisive, they have been on the ball and they have been quick. We do not have to look too far. We had a quick retirement in the past few weeks of the man responsible for energy in the Department of industry, Commerce and Energy. We had the Examiner of Restrictive Practices leaving in hurried circumstances. Before that there was Mr. Garvey and many other examples could be cited.

The truth is that this Government are terribly anxious to keep power about themselves. Separation of powers does not come into this particular argument. I ask the Minister to give this House an undertaking that this will not happen again, that in future if they choose to dismiss people such as Mr. Garvey, or any people in similar positions, they will be given notice of it, will be given an opportunity to defend themselves and will be given reasons for their dismissal. It is unbelievable that in this day and age someone could say to the lowest servant in the land, whether he works in business or a private house, "You are dismissed", or, worse still, give him two hours to get out.

The truth is, I believe that Mr. Garvey was unpopular with the Garda Síochána. He was said to have been a hard disciplinarian; he may have been. I believe this Government, by a nod or a wink, conveyed to members of the Garda Síochána that he would be put out of office if they assumed power. I believe that when they were elected they looked for means to get rid of him and could not find them easily, I believe they found that Mr. Garvey was not going to co-operate with them in dismissing him. I also believe that on that January morning they decided to throw him out, just to ditch him.

At that time the glitter of Fianna Fáil was still strong. They were doing everything. I remember at that time people in my own party in my county telling me, "You will never get them out. They will never shift. Look at what they did". The Minister smiles, he is entitled to, but the smile is on the other side of his face now after the recent elections. There was a time, and the Minister recalls it, when everybody thought Fianna Fáil were absolutely and utterly almighty. They did not advert to the fact that we were down well in the bank and that the money would be paid back at one stage or another. But at that time the glitter was strong and the Government had incredible popularity. On the crest of the wave, at the height of that great feeling of power, they decided they could ditch Mr. Garvey and get away with it. I think that is what they did, but the day they did that they started to decline. A couple of days after Mr. Garvey was dismissed I met people who had no concern or conception about Mr. Garvey but they felt that an injustice had been done and were unhappy with the performance of the Government. It was the first issue I remember that concerned people. The reason for that was that behind it all, Irish people have a great sense of fair play. That is something which the Government did not have on that occasion. I hope this is something which will never occur again.

For our part I can tell the House that this is a thundering mess which needs clearing up and this legislation, especially in the amended form, which endeavours to do that, although there is no certain guarantee that it will do so, will not be opposed or obstructed by us. I am not qualified to speak on the legal aspects and I am less inclined to endeavour to do so after the last speaker. I am fairly sparse with words of praise but Senator Molony's speech was extraordinarily good. If I am not here to hear it in person, I will rapidly go to the records to see what the Minister is able to make of it, because there seemed to be a large number of unanswerable damning points in that admirable speech.

I want, therefore, to look at the matter in a totally different way, more from a layman's point of view. It would be an interesting exercise to work out what this piece of mixed stupidity, incompetence and vindictiveness has cost this country. I was interested to see that the Minister's 24 page speech tried to explain and validate this little Bill, Even if the payment comes from taxes or out of the public purse in the end, if you put together the cost of every day in the courts, every day the police have to check back to try to sort out what might go astray, what mistakes were made, what do we have to validate, what do we have to clean up afterwards, the days in the Oireachtas—this Parliament is expensive though certainly not a luxury, but we ought to be doing more serious things than spending time validating this mixture of vindictiveness and incompetence—if you put it all together, would it be the Minister's £1 million mistake or would it be more than that? I do not know. It is taking a very large amount of public money and public time in the Oireachtas, the courts, the Government, who ought, God knows, be directing their minds to other matters, the public service, the offices of the Attorney General and so on.

I want to add my voice to Senator Molony's in regard to the election campaign. I wish that I could recall names and places, but an election campaign is a sort of whirlwind and it is impossible for me now, two years later, to be precise. I certainly encountered from members of the Garda the statement that they were told by Fianna Fáil canvassers that if Fianna Fáil got back, Garvey was for the chop, or Garvey was for the high jump, or such phrase. I add my voice to the record, in a very formal way, in a formal place, that any of us, from any party, could produce dozens and hundreds of people with the same experience. That was the currency of the discussion of the Garda Commissioner during the election campaign. In other words, it was a promise made to buy some votes.

Most of the promises made to buy votes have been broken and dishonoured. Many members of the Government are still so stupid that they do not know that they have been broken and dishonoured and they go on mouthing them in a hollow way. If they were more au fait with the present facts of the economy that they purport to be controlling, they would know that the promises have been broken. Here is one that was not broken, a pity it was not. It would have shown a certain magnanimity and sense of honour if they had not carried out the promise they made to get garda votes.

I must assume, since I was aware of that promise from election time, that when the Minister entered office an effort was made to carry it out in a way that would not produce these repercussions, this extraordinary amount of public effort and public money being thrown down the drain. From June to 19 January 1978 when the Government decided on the action they would take there was a little more than half a year for them to find a way to do this decently, and legally, if it were possible. We are not talking about the heady days of victory within weeks of a new Government coming to office, we are talking about them having half a year to look at it. I am convinced by what Senator Molony said about the record of events which we both believe happened, that there was no notice, that there were no reasons given, that there was no opportunity for defence and that there was a matter of two hours to get out.

I want to tease that out, quite apart from one Department or one human being, as a matter of Government attitude to all of the persons employed by them. One of the more wryly humorous promises in the election manifesto was to improve staff relations in the Post Office. If someone wants a laugh I recomment him to find the relevant part of the 1977 Fianna Fáil election manifesto.

Here was the decision of a Government, apparently, not just one petulant Minister, to do something that in equity no employer would do to any employee, regardless of his length of service or status. Anyone who belonged to the category of human being should not be treated in such a way. I say this not as a lawyer but as a human being. It is a violation of the norms of behaviour between persons to do that, to throw a man out without notice, or reasons or opportunity for a defence and with a very short time involved. It shows an attitude that echoes through all the relations with those persons who are employed in the public service. If you can do that to one person, what is different about doing it to other persons in any way that is possible, legal or illegal, if you can get away with it? It seems to be symptomatic of a quite exraordinary sort of savagery, ruthlessness and indifference to the norms of human behaviour.

Then we have this interesting thing. Government's contain lawyers in many cases. I often envy lawyers the great advantage they have politically. I doubt that any Government in this State ever did not have a fair number of lawyers, and they have a large amount of legal advice. In the face of that something was done which did not stand up. Here I offer the Minister the thought, which must have occurred to him. Ministers are responsible for the things they do, and more importantly for the things their servants do. If someone behaves grossly incompetently, he is to be reprimanded and punished. It is not given to anybody to fail in carrying out his work in a very gross, negligent or incompetent way.

I have heard of the early resignations and failure to renew an appointment where it would have been normal, of public servants, two of them known to me. They were admirable people, but I have not heard of any reprimand or dismissal in regard to those who gave legal advice to the Minister.

Therefore, I conclude that it is the Minister who must carry the responsibility. Either he demonstrates a failure on the part of those who advise him, or he accepts the responsibility himself. It seems that in this lengthy speech he is doing neither. He is not identifying any fault or mistake, but he is saying "we were ill done by" as he said in the Dáil. If we had one gross piece of incompetence in the manner of the dismissal, with no one identified or reprimanded or asked to resign for that, then when it came to the High Court and then the Supreme Court, if I understand the last part of the Minister's circulated text he is saying that there was another gross piece of incompetence. This is a very closely written speech—I think I see the hand of a lawyer in the drafting of this speech. The Minister said:

What is perhaps more immediately relevant here is that the Supreme Court interpreted the legal pleadings made on behalf of the Government as tantamount to an admission of allegetions made in Mr. Garvey's statement of claim.... I must, however, make it clear that it had not been intended to be read in that way.

That was another thundering error, two in a few months. I did not hear of anybody being reprimanded or retired or not having his appointment renewed on the head of that. The Minister must take responsibility for that too. The errors are piling up.

This is appalling staff relations, it is appalling behaviour in human terms, it is appalling incompetence, but through this speech my impression is that the Minister says many times in different words, "there is a background", "I do have a case", "there will be another day and it will all come out. Then you will see that, notwithstanding these two lots of bad advice, bad luck and incompetence on somebody's part, it was not really the Government's fault and what we did was right and valid."

He says that so many times that I begin to think it is a bit hollow. If it was only said once, or twice at most, it would be more convincing. The reiteration of that gives me serious doubts, but we will know when the Minister's evidence is given in court. If the Minister's case is not in the opinion of the court, a valid one, I think that, with the tradition of public responsibility in this country, the stage will be reached where it will be very hard to see the Minister continuing. He has not identified the persons, if they exist, who misled him and the Government and who are the sources of these very serious and exceedingly costly mistakes. If there were such persons, and if their background is seen to be inadequate, and if the Minister's case, when finally perhaps at second shot he gets it right and tells the court what he wishes to have them told and that is adjudicated upon, and if it is seen to be trivial, if it is seen that there was not notice, or reasons given, or the opportunity for defence, I think the principle of people carrying responsibilities for the messes made in their names is such that the Minister, in equity and in honour, ought to offer his resignation.

I agree with Senator Molony that this Bill should be passed quickly and that care should be taken by the Commissioner that it covers everything that has been done. As a layman I cannot quite agree with everything Senator Molony said. First, he made a false statement. He said it was well known during the election campaign in 1977 that the Commissioner was going to be sacked. It may have got as far as Tipperary but it was not well known in Cork. I certainly knew nothing about it, nor did I hear any canvasser in the Cork area say it.

There are Deputies from Cork on the record as saying they knew about it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator must be allowed to continue.

Deputy Molony illustrated how the law should be. As a layman I cannot quite see that it is absolutely obligatory on Senator McDonald to say that a dog either bit or did not bite Senator Molony and that, therefore, Senator Molony did or did not receive personal injuries. What would the situation be if Senator McDonald felt in law that he was not responsible for what his dog does? What would be the answer in that case? As a layman, I do not know but as a layman I feel that he has the right to say so and not definitely state whether the dog bit the Senator or that Senator Molony was injured.

We heard a lot of superlatives used with reference to the Minister. In recent months we had superlatives used, especially in the other House, in relation to other things. For weeks we heard about a fuel crisis and the word hammered so hard everywhere that it created petrol queues, hoarding and everything else. That was the result of the use of superlatives. Yet the situation has changed and is under control. I do not agree with people using superlatives when they are speaking on assumptions of what they think; what they know is a different matter. Senator Molony said what he thought happened. I do not consider a person in our position speaking publicly, should speak on serious situations such as this on what we think.

Again as a layman I feel we have got to think about the decision of the Supreme Court which I suppose is now very definitely with us. A Commissioner, like the head of an army, is in full charge of a big body of men, with the right to order them and instruct them what to do. The apparent position now is, if I am correct, that even if, we say, the head of the army instructs his army to take action which would be contrary to the good of the country, you have to give him the time to prepare a defence in the case of accusation. That appears to be the decision of the Supreme Court. If there was a coup d'etat in this country would we have to sit down and give right?

I was going to apologise for being a lay person; I was beginning to get a distinct impression that the world is divided into lawyers and non-lawyers and that somehow lawyers are better than non-lawyers but I do not believe that for a moment. In this case, the issues are quite simple and should be understood by any child in the street. I want to emphasise the fact that I am speaking as an independent politician. I find it horrifying that political party members should be talking about the position of the Garda Commissioner being bandied about in an election campaign. That reflects no credit on politicians.

The ground has been covered exhaustively in this matter, both inside and outside this House. I fully accept that this Bill, as it comes to us now, is legally watertight and will fulfil the purpose for which it is brought before us. It is obviously not the kind of Bill the Minister would expect one to stand up and welcome, and it is certainly not one which the Government enjoyed putting before us. At the same time, certain things must be said. No matter what way you look at it, this is an extraordinarily serious matter when it appeared that a Minister for Justice may have broken the law. No matter what sophisticated legal niceties are used to describe the Supreme Court's judgment that was what they were saying. Since it is such an extremely serious matter, we must find out how it came about so that such an occurrence could never happen again and we must see how such a thing could be avoided. That is why we have to find out the whys and wherefores of this whole business, and why I believe it is right for Senators to be alarmed when they are put off by talk of it being sub judice. We have to safeguard people in the future, and future Ministers and public servants.

Various scenarios could have happened which are the root cause of this Bill. In the dismissal of Mr. Garvey there is a possibility that the Minister crossed his fingers and took a gamble, hoping it would come off. I cannot imagine that that was the case, because I hope that kind of behaviour is outside the realm of possibility in a matter like this. It is, however, one of a range of choices which one must examine.

There is another possibility which I would equally deprecate, and I am sure it could not have happened either. The Minister could have lost his temper and rushed at this blindly and, perhaps, stopped to think when it was too late. I am not acquainted with the temperament of the Minister but I can only hope that that kind of display went out with the last display of temper during the terms of the Coalition regarding the Presidency. This country has had enough of displays of that kind of temper, and I am sure the Taoiseach would not tolerate that sort of a matter again. I hope we can discount that as a possibility.

There is a third thing that might have happened and perhaps a decision might have been taken by the Minister after he and his Government had calmly and coolly considered the advice given to them by the people they considered best fitted to give them that advice. I would hope that that is the way Ministers and Governments take decisions. Unfortunately if that was the case then, as has been mentioned before, colossal mistakes were made in an area of extreme importance to the country. We cannot, as Senator Keating would seem to have implied, blame advisers and expect heads to roll. It is a Government's business to get the right advisers and, having listened to different kinds of advice, to make the right decisions. However, one is left with the fact that this third senario must be the only one that is possible and the one which has left us unravelling, by passing this Bill, a situation which it gave rise to. If this third version is he correct one, then it is the most alarming. However, we must know what is the correct version. I believe it has gone on too long with promises of being told sometime, in another place, at another time when the opportunity is right when it is not sub judice.

There are other aspects of this Bill which we must consider. We have also to remind ourselves of the extreme importance of the job of Garda Commissioner because it is a job which vitally affects the stability of the State, the stability of Government and the stability of the democracy in which we live. That has not been mentioned here by previous speakers. I am not here to score points off anybody but we must remember that the position of Garda Commissioner is the supreme post in a body on which this State depends for stability.

Another aspect which we must look at here is putting right and legalising retrospectively people's actions, the actions of the new Commissioner over certain periods of time. In doing this we are able to bail the Minister and the State out of a sticky situation. But in doing that we are engaged in papering over some extremely bad cracks which the Oireachtas should not have to do. I say this because the Dáil and the Seanad have, over very many years, passed a great deal of legislation to protect people's employment against a myriad of injustices relating to conditions, to their pay and to dismissals. Many injustices affecting women in particular have come to light in the last few years. Any Government can stand up and say to employers: "You must treat your employees decently and fairly and abide by the rules, and these are the rules" but now we are setting an example to the country of regularising our own sins retrospectively, breaking our own laws, and in fact breaking the laws of simple justice. That is a serious element about which we should remind ourselves when we are discussing this Bill.

It was, obviously, a serious mistake fundamentally and the Government have been seriously embarrassed. I very much hope that the standards pertaining in the Departments which advise the Minister on these things will be examined and that steps will be taken in whatever areas are necessary to prevent such a very undignified and damaging parade of events happening again.

The dismissal may have been found to be invalid because of various technicalities of procedure which may be understood and appreciated by legal brains and by some politicians. The general public, however, only read in their paper that politicians are making yet another unholy mess of things and at a very high level. It seems to me that a very serious aspect of this is how it appears to the ordinary person and it is an aspect about which none of us can be happy. I hope that this will be the last such Bill which I will ever see in the Oireachtas.

This Bill is a sad piece of legislation in so far as it marks another brick in the monstrous edifice of incompetence that this Government are building as their memorial. It is sad too in that it is the sordid climax to what is a sordid background in so far as the former Commissioner, Mr. Garvey, is concerned. We must all be worried by the apparent level of incompetence that this whole episode has revealed. It was incompetence culminating in a finding by the highest court in the land against the Government, the body charged with the protection of all the citizens and with the vindication of our national constitutional rights. That the Government have been found to deny to an important servant of the State his fundamental rights and are found to be acting contrary to the principles of natural justice is a serious matter.

One must presume that the Government, when denying Mr. Garvey the right to natural justice to which as a citizen he is entitled, must have been aware that there was a long list of judicial precedents setting out very clearly and explicitly the principle that no man can be dismissed without being given reasonable notice and without being given an opportunity to make his case. There are numerous precedents in law for that proposition. Yet the Government chose to ignore that legal position and only asserted, in reply to Mr. Garvey's claim, that they were entitled to do as they had done, that is, dismiss him on two hours' notice and without giving reasons.

This raises the question of whether the Government deliberately ignored the legal position with regard to the rights of the person supposed to be dismissed or were unaware of it. I find it inconceivable that the Government and the Minister, with the legal knowledge within the Cabinet and with the legal knowledge available to the Minister from official sources, could have been unaware of the legal position. Certainly, to echo a point made by Senator Keating, if the legal advisers were unaware of what I submit is a very clear and well known legal position we should have heard by now that steps were taken to deal with the personnel responsible for giving such erroneous advice to the Minister and the Government. I consider the position to be so basically clear that I find it inconceivable that the legal position was not adverted to in the discussions leading up to this purported dismissal. If I am right in that, we then have to consider what was the tactic used by the Minister in effecting this dismissal. If he knew the legal consequences of dismissing a person without notice and without an opportunity to defend himself and yet chose to ignore those consequences, it seems to me that the Government at that stage were deliberately avoiding the situation where they would give notice of adequate length to the person concerned and give that person an adequate opportunity to defend himself and give him the points on which he would have to defend himself. It seems to me that the Government decided that that course was not going to be adopted by them, that they did not want to tell Mr. Garvey why he was being dismissed, they did not want to give him an opportunity to defend himself. It is not as if this dismissal came out of the blue. We have the Taoiseach's own word for that in the Dáil when on the 31 January 1978 at column 4 he said:

Mr. Garvey must have been aware for some time that the Government were concerned about the manner in which the general direction and control of the Garda Síochána were being exercised by him.

That was in January 1978 and of course it raises the question of how long Mr. Garvey should have been aware, why he should have been aware and in what circumstances was his attention drawn to the fact that the Government were concerned about the manner in which the general direction and control of the Garda Síochána were being exercised and when he was first informed that there was concern.

Obviously there is, as the Minister said, a background, and normally if one is going to sack somebody because of that background, that background should fall to be debated with the person concerned, and publicly if necessary, so that justice can be done and be seen to be done. In fact we know from the pleadings in the case as reported in The Irish Times on the 27 April 1978 that Mr. Garvey referred in his statement of claim to a meeting he had with the Minister on 15 December at which the Minister read out a number of complaints concerning him and which he, the Minister, stated that he had received from the executive of the representative body for the Garda and from some of the executive of the representing body for sergeants.

The statement of claim, according to the report in The Irish Times, goes on to say that Mr. Garvey stated that in reply to these complaints he wanted them in writing so that he could study them and answer them. The Minister told him that there might be a sworn inquiry into these allegations and Mr. Garvey expressed his willingness to participate in any inquiry. The statement of claim then went on to tell us that a written statement of complaints was then sent to Mr. Garvey on 15 December, the same date as the interview. On 20 December when he had not replied the Minister notified him that he wanted the reply that evening or early next morning. Mr. Garvey apparently sent a reply on 21 December and he gave notice by telephone that he would expand verbally on his answers if required to do so. Apparently he was required to do so, because on the following day he was summoned to the Department of Justice and gave full replies, according to his statement of claim, refuting the allegations made against him. There we have what I presume the Minister refers to when he uses the word “background”, and we would have there, too, I presume the issues that the Taoiseach referred to when he said that Mr. Garvey must have been aware for some time that the Government were concerned.

What puzzles me is that if the Minister was confident that his background justified the dismissal of the head of the national police force, the Minister did not proceed to dismiss him relying on this background and letting the matter be answered by Mr. Garvey, and then if they so wanted afterwards litigate the fairness or otherwise of the decision come to on the investigation of that background. It puzzles me that that is not the way this matter was dealt with. Instead after partially and confidentially raising these matters and investigating them the Minister chose to ignore the background and instead opted for an extraordinary legal stance. A couple of weeks afterwards he called in Mr. Garvey and told him that he wanted his resignation within two hours and that if it was not forthcoming he would be sacked. When it was not forthcoming Mr. Garvey was sacked. Then the extraordinary defence to the claim by Mr. Garvey, ignoring a whole mass of legal precedents, was that the Government were entitled to do what they did.

I will put forward the theory that in the Minister's actions in December mentioned in the statement of claim and in the oblique reference to the Taoiseach on the 31 January there was a certain amount of brinkmanship being practised by the Minister against Mr. Garvey. I have no doubt that Mr. Garvey was as well aware as every other member of his force of the belief that he was to be chopped on the change of Government. It was not a very pleasant climate for the head of the national police force to have to live in and discharge his duties in. But apparently no effort was made to clarify the issues until 15 December, six months after the change of Government, when these allegations were put to Mr. Garvey. The tension was allowed to build up and then in late December these allegations were made; they were not pursued and then suddenly, out of the blue, in January the man was tempted with his pension and his gratuity to go quietly. Most people in that situation would have reminded themselves of their age and the fact that they had only so long to do and asked themselves why they should get into a hassle and into all this controversy, publicity and so on; most people would at that stage have probably allowed themselves to be pushed over the brink and agreed to anything for a quiet life; they would have resigned, and taken their pension and gratuity.

Mr. Garvey did not go and from what I knew of him from dealing with him it was entirely in his character to stand up and fight. That was the nature of the man; he is a tough cop. The Minister made a mistake in thinking that he was going to push him with two hours' notice and the gamble then went wrong for the Minister. He did not give any reasons because presumably the reasons he would have given would have been those that were notified in the previous December and which were answered but were not pursued even though the Minister said there might be a sworn inquiry according to the statement of claim. Yet that was not pursued. The Minister's gamble went astray and he was now in the position that he had to plead that the Government's action was justified by virtue of the wording of the 1925 Act and ignore the mass of legal decisions found since the 1925 Act and particularly under the 1937 Constitution.

In the Dáil Debates of 31 January when the matter was raised we see the extraordinary situation where the Taoiseach—in the aftermath of the scene where this man had been fired on two hours' notice and fired after six or seven months of, as The Irish Times editorial stated, weaseling against him and fired in a climate where the Government were making it plain that they had no confidence in him and that there was a “background”, savoury or unsavoury, stated that the Government had decided that Mr. Garvey would be given his gratuity and his pension. In addition he was offered a further dangler of £3,250 by way of ex-gratia payment. I find that an extraordinary stance for the Government to take in the aftermath of their action of the previous week. Having been offered the opportunity to resign and refused it Mr. Garvey was then fired and when one is fired from the public service in that situation one loses all that one is entitled to. But yet here is the Taoiseach a week afterwards dangling pension, gratuity and an ex-gratia £3,250. I must say when I read that, I could not help thinking that the Government were trying to bribe Mr. Garvey to end the proceedings there and then.

That is why I say this whole business is a sordid climax to a whole sordid background. The law then ensued and we had the Government's defence to the claim, pleading that they were absolutely entitled to do what they did. In the circumstances of the whole scenario the Government had no choice but to make that plea and they had no choice but to admit in their defence, as the Supreme Court found, that no notice was given and no opportunity was given to the plaintiff to make a case. The defence accordingly had to rely on the fragile legal ground of the 1925 Act and in doing so had to ignore a whole mass of legal decisions which the Supreme Court, in due course, pointed out and found—as they were coerced by the legal position to find—in favour of Mr. Garvey.

I do not know the position. This is a theory. But the alternative to it is to condemn the Minister and his advisers for an appalling degree of incompetence in not knowing the law. I would accept the theory that Mr. Garvey had to go because of pressure on the Minister from various sources but that the reasons behind these pressures were not strong enough to stand up to public scrutiny or, in so far as they were tried out on 15 December, were rebutted by the then Commissioner so as to cast doubt over their validity. Consequently, that line of country was not the line towards the desired end, the removal of the Commissioner. It was a gamble taken on a sudden chop, to look for his resignation and hope to get it in two hours rather than face the controversy of legal action and the apparent disgrace of summary dismissal from one of the highest offices in the land.

Whatever the result the whole episode is sordid and sad. We now have this extraordinary legislation. Senator Molony said the like of it was not here in this term. I do not think the like of it has been introduced in either Houses of the Oireachtas since the State was set up. We are being asked here to validate the consequences of a most extraordinary piece of administrative, and possibly legal, bungling. Maybe the scenario I have painted is without foundation; maybe it was decided that the way to sack this man was to use the dismissal and to rely on the 1925 Act and that there was no motivation or background behind it. Whatever the reasons, it was a total piece of bungling and we have no choice but to pass this legislation.

There are legal consequences of that bungling—the 12 months of invalid actions by Mr. McLaughlin. I have great sympathy for Mr. McLaughlin in the awful position he was left in. He is an officer that, I know and one of whom I have formed a high opinion both personally and professionally. It was a terrible situation for him, through no fault of his own, to find himself in. He was acting invalidly for upwards of one year.

We are now trying to cure all of those invalid actions. Here we are entering into a totally unknown legal scene. No one has any idea what legal consequences are going to arise over the next years arising out of that particular piece of bungling. Nobody can be sure that this Act will be effective to validate all the consequences of the invalid actions of Mr. McLaughlin's time. That is an appalling legal mess for a well-ordered civilised State to find itself in.

It was said by the Minister in the Dáil that no injustice has been done to anybody by virtue of the actions of Mr. McLaughlin and that any person who might have something done to him did not have anything done to him that was different from what would have been done to him if Mr. McLaughlin had been validly appointed. That is a point of view. But it is a defective point of view because, living as we do under the rule of law and consenting to the citizens of our State because we know there is an objective set of criteria to determine our relations with each other and with the State, we are entitled to know that these are solid and unchanging.

A person, is only guilty when he is guilty in fact and guilty in law, the law as of the time when he is found guilty. If the legal rules are changed accidentally, by reason of the negligence as in this case, then a person is not found guilty in fact and in law. He may be guilty in fact and we then have to decide for ourselves if we are going to make him retrospectively guilty in law as well. If so, are we then doing him justice in accordance with the theoretical precept of justice that it involves an unchanging rule of law, a set of objective standards? That is the only way in which there can be certainty and objectivity about them. The alternative implication in the Minister's suggestion that no injustice has been done is that some person, perhaps a member of the executive or a member of the bureaucracy, judicial or legal or lay, could at some stage come along and subjectively change the rule and then say it was a mistake and that he did not do it. That is not good enough and inevitably there will be litigation teasing out these considerations. We are opening up legal paths the like of which no one ever contemplated would ever face any citizen in the country.

There is no doubt that this whole business is sad. It is a piece of monumental bungling with regard to a person who did not deserve this type of treatment from this State. Mr. Garvey's record as a dedicated and energetic public servant, generous in his time to his job is second to none. I found him to be a dedicated police officer who was keen to have a high level of efficiency, to have a force that would give to the people of the country, its paymasters, full value for the high bills that have to be met for that force. I know that there were elements within that force who disagreed with him. They might have found his blunt choice of phrase and his blunt manner of speaking unacceptable in this age of euphemism. I know that there were elements who did so find and who complained. I recall when these complaints were being made and not just privately to me but were orchestrated through the public press with a general climate of dissatisfaction being created, in an effort to deal with them. I recall devising a system of review and Mr. Garvey, even though the system of review could theoretically be seen to impinge on his authority, loyally, albeit reluctantly, agreed to it, without attempting to cause dissension among his peers with regard to it and certainly without running to the press leaking his dissatisfaction. There was total loyalty by him with regard to what I, the then Minister, wanted him to do.

That new review was welcomed by the representative bodies for the gardai and sergeants. I recall an editorial in the Garda Review of May 1977, welcoming the establishment of these new review procedures, indicating that the new regime was under way and expressing satisfaction with what had been contrived. That was the position in May 1977. The election then came and the aftermath of the election. I have to say with regret that I have to confirm what has been alleged in this House and the other House as to what was the popular widespread belief among the public and among the members of the force and their families with regard to what was going to happen to Mr. Garvey. Certainly that belief and the atmosphere that built up after the change of Government indicated that changes were on the way. Changes unfortunately did come—sordid changes—which were totally undeserved by a man who gave nothing but loyalty and dedication to the service of this country from the time he first entered that service 40 odd years ago. It was disgraceful and reprehensible.

I must concede that any government must have confidence in the head of the national police force. There can be no gainsaying that proposition. If a government lose confidence in the head of the national police force, I submit that they have a duty to show that their loss of confidence is bona fide, that it is free from all political considerations and from all improper pressures. They must also show that in coming to that stage the Government have taken into account and given due credit for the other side of the coin. If a Government lose confidence then they are entitled to move. This is where we get back to what happened in this case. The Government, instead of indicating clearly and honestly why they had lost confidence in the Commissioner and given him an opportunity to make his case, decided to chop him ruthlessly with two hours' notice—ruthlessly, and as it subsequently turned out invalidly and illegally, with the unprecedented legal consequences of this pathetic piece of legislation.

Senator Keating referred to the possible financial implications of this piece of bungling. I do not know whether his guess was far out or what was the position. Apart from the financial consequences, the consequences of this in terms of distraction of the Minister's energy and attention and distraction of the energy and attention of the gardai from dealing with the crime problems that we are facing are very serious and very large indeed. Would not the Minister be better advised and service his office better if he was able without distractions like this to give his full attention to the urgent problems of combating the awful wave of bank robberies that we are experiencing? Why have so few of them been detected? What is happening to the proceeds? Who is spending it? Is there no intelligence whatever coming to the national police force to try to help to solve these problems?

We had the sinister development where the dwelling house of a Member of the Oireachtas was invaded by masked and armed men who issued threats because of something he had said and was entitled to say as a public representative. These are sinister developments. How much better it would be for the Minister to be able to give his undivided attention, without these sordid distractions, to dealing with these problems.

This is an unprecedented situation. This Bill represents the public admission of a monstrous bungle. I do not know, nobody knows, we can only speculate and I have speculated here today as to how the bungle arose and who was responsible for it. Was it the consequence of mistaken political tactics or of ill-judged legal advice? Nobody knows. One thing is clear. The responsibility for it lies fairly and squarely on the shoulders of the Minister for Justice as a member of the executive responsible. I was Minister for Justice and I know that great pressures can and do come into that office and a Minister may have to carry the can for events initiated from outside or over which he has no control whatever. I had to carry that can and my head was called for. My resignation was called for in connection with events which I could not possibly have foreseen, events which were initiated from without, but in this particular instance this massive bungle has been initiated by the Minister and was carried through, if that is not a misuse of English, by the Minister himself. It seems very clear that if the responsibility of an executive for his actions is to be faced up to, the Minister has no option but to acknowledge the serious dimension of the mistake made in this case. He has no option but to acknowledge the unforeseen legal consequences which have been caused by this bungle. He has no option but to recognise these matters by resigning his office. If he did that, he would undo much of the sordid character that surrounds this whole episode and people might forget that what we have been engaged in was nothing but a squalid witch-hunt.

I should like to thank Members of the House for their comments on the Bill. I am glad to note that their co-operation is forthcoming in having the Bill dealt with as speedily as possible. I will deal briefly with some of the matters raised by Senator Molony.

I agree with the point made by the Senator to the effect that, as far as possible, things done during the relevant 16-month period should be looked at and, where necessary, redone as it were, so as to avoid any argument in the future. I would like to assure the Senator that this kind of action has already been taken in certain instances. As regards the removal of Mr. Garvey, I want to make it quite clear that all I am saying is that I am in the position of a litigant in the High Court. If I were to proceed, as the Senator suggests, to recite the facts of the background I would obviously be open to the charge that I was engaged in a highly selective presentation of the facts, choosing what suited me and omitting what did not. I would be open to the charge, as I said in my opening speech, of engaging in an attempt to conduct a trial here on the very issues that are likely to be relevant in the High Court.

As regards the two-hour notice, the Senator referred to remarks made by me in the Dáil during the course of the discussion. I was quite specific in the Dáil in making it clear that I was not making any claim to have ever mentioned either resignation or dismissal to Mr. Garvey on any previous occasion and reference to this can be found in column 1715 of the Official Report of 30 May, 1979. I cannot go into any further detail. It would be quite wrong of me to proceed in this House in present circumstances to make statements purporting to establish that the Government acted reasonably. I do not intend to comment on the Senator's statements on the technical matters of legal pleadings except to say as a matter of fact that the Government pleadings did—and I repeat the word "did"—contain a denial of the allegations but the Supreme Court did not regard the denial as sufficient because, as I understand it, it was a general denial and the Supreme Court considered a general denial insufficient. The Senator's statement that the issue had been reduced to the preliminary issue because there was no substantive issue is, in fact, wrong.

That is not what I said.

That is what I thought the Senator said. I am not in any way holding myself out as a competent person to analyse the finer points of the legal action at this stage. The Senator asked for an assurance that the Government will not act like this again. That must be likened to asking a person if he had stopped beating his wife. He has conducted his own trial to his own satisfaction here. So be it.

What about what the Supreme Court said?

I must reserve my defence for another day. Senator Keating repeats, as do other Senators, the allegation about an election promise that was made. I have explicitly denied in the Dáil that I made any such promise or indeed, if you wish, any such threat or that I had any knowledge of it. Seemingly that is not acceptable but I say that is so. If Senator Keating, Senator Cooney or any other Senator, Deputy or candidate during that campaign came across a case where such allegations were made, why then did we not during the course of that campaign hear the then Minister for Justice, Senator Cooney, or the then Taoiseach, Deputy Cosgrave, openly talk on such matters? They did not because it never happened, and they know it to be so.

Senator Keating goes on to imply that I sought ways and means to carry out this promise that was alleged to have been made without consequences which the Government would not want. Let me say to Senator Keating that he would be acting more prudently from the point of view of his own reputation as a reasonable person if he reserved judgment or reserved comment until he heard the other side. He has not heard the other side. The Senator knows quite well that I am inhibited by the High Court proceedings from saying anything at present.

Senator Molony suggested that this House would have no opportunity at a later stage to consider any aspect of the merits. I would respectfully suggest to the Senator that this House has ways and means of discussing anything it wants to discuss in due course when the legal proceedings have been disposed of. If I had any influence in this House, which I have not, I would not have any objection to the House discussing it at that stage.

With regard to the comments of Senator Hussey, the Senator says that this House must find out what happened. I say, fair enough to that. That is a matter for the House but when the Senator says that the House must find out now I can only say that, for the reasons I have already given in detail, I cannot assist this House to find out now. I believe that the facts may come out in full in the High Court. I am not saying that they will because I do not know what course the action will take. However, as long as the action is there I cannot agree to make statements in my own defence. Indeed, after the High Court action is finished and if the facts are not apparent, I will certainly be open to be questioned in the Dáil but I would not presume to advise the Senators as to how they might go about finding out what is the position.

Senator Cooney suggested that the Government must have known what was the law. He went on to deduce that what happened must have been due to an unwillingness to set out the basis of complaint and to engage in a proper assessment of the reply. Of course, the difficulty about replying to that kind of analysis is that it is based on a combination of facts and, with respect to the Senator, some assumptions. If I were to challenge some of the assumptions now I would, in fact, be doing the very thing I have explained that I cannot do because I would be defending myself on issues that are, or certainly are liable to be, the very issues to be assessed by the High Court.

May I say this much, that I do not think it takes from what I have said up to now about not going into the merits that the question never arose as far as I was concerned of offering Mr. Garvey a pension as a bait to encourage him to resign? Perhaps that was uncalled for but I will forgive the Senator. I will forgive him for a lot of things today because I have to. It is not the case, as the Senator seems to think, that a person would normally lose all his rights to pensions and so on on being removed from office in the Garda Siochána. A member of the force might or might not, depending on circumstances. The details are all spelled out in the Garda Pensions Orders but I am sure the Senator has not had a chance to look at them for some time now. As for the rest of the Senator's comments, they are, I would say, on his own admission—and it is his admission—speculation. I would say in reply that the suggestion or the speculation is that from the time I took office I was determined to get rid of the Commissioner and used the very first available excuse for doing so. I cannot foresee future developments, but in the nature of things I think it is likely that there will be some further analysis either in the High Court or elsewhere within a matter of months. I do not know how many months that might be, but I believe that whatever number of months might have to elapse between now and then the Senator will certainly know enough of the facts by then to know that whatever view he may have on other aspects of my activities he will not repeat the suggestion that I acted in the way he now thinks I may have done.

I note that the Senator has called on me to resign. It is nothing new. I think it is Item 77 on the Order Paper in the Dáil, or was the last time I looked at the motion of no confidence in me which has been tabled by his party. As I said in the other House, I will more than welcome that motion of no confidence in me. I will welcome it as an opportunity to state my case and to state it in full, because I believe that obligation is on me. I believe the public must and will know and as far as I am concerned they will definitely know the full facts when I get that opportunity.

There is one matter which I raised and I think the Minister has overlooked it. I think it is one he would be anxious to reply to. I made reference to the editorial of 8 September 1977 in The Irish Times. I asked the Minister if anything emanated from his Department about the weaselling referred to in that editorial.

I hope the Senator will not think I am interrupting him when I say to him that if ever I have to ask a newspaper, whether it be The Irish Times, The Irish Press, the Irish Independent, The Limerick Leader or The Kerryman to do my job of work for me then I should not be in this House. That is putting it very clearly. I have asked nobody. I know nothing of it. I was not involved in any way and let me say that if I was at all times to take issue with matters raised in the editorials of any papers well then the Senator, I am sure, would be one of the first to really take me to task for interfering with the rights of the journalists who put these newspapers together.

I am very grateful that the Minister has said that. I regret very much that it was not denied because it was a scurrilous editorial if it was unfounded and I gather it was unfounded.

The Sunday World said the leaks emanated from the Minister's office so I think there is a good precedent there.

Question put and agreed to.
Agree to take remaining Stages today.
Barr
Roinn