I have given Senator Ellis leave to move the Adjournment of the Seanad to discuss the following matter under Standing Order 29: The problems of school transport for post-primary schools in County Leitrim which has resulted in the removal of pupils from school buses within the last two days.
County Leitrim School Transport.
First, I thank you for allowing me to raise this matter and I would appreciate if, in view of the problems that have been posed to other Senators who wish to do the same, you would allow me to divide my time with some of my colleagues rather than having the same Standing Order being used by them to raise problems in their own particular areas. Is that acceptable to the Chair?
Yes.
I believe this debate should involve as many Senators as possible but the phrase used by Senator Ellis was to deal with "problems in their own particular areas". I understood that the matter allowed relates to County Leitrim.
Yes, to County Leitrim only.
Some of my colleagues have pupils from their areas attending second level education in County Leitrim and these pupils are experiencing problems.
The notice refers solely to County Leitrim.
Senator Mullooly has some constituents who are having problems attending second level education in County Leitrim.
I am sorry. If I move to Roscommon, I shall have to move to Donegal and so on.
The position is that these pupils attend school in County Leitrim.
The Senator referred in his notice to County Leitrim pupils only.
It relates to post-primary schools in County Leitrim.
The Senator says in his notice that under Standing Order 29 he wishes to give notice of his intention to raise the problems of school transport for post-primary schools in County Leitrim which have resulted in the removal of pupils from school buses within the last two days.
It relates to post-primary schools in County Leitrim. Some of Senator Mullooly's people from Roscommon who are attending schools in County Leitrim are having problems also and he wishes to come in on the matter.
I will allow anything that is within the terms of the notice.
My reason for raising this matter is that in the past week, and especially in the past two days, CIE have removed a number of pupils from post-primary school buses in County Leitrim. The problem is that many of these pupils have now been attacked when they are at their most vulnerable. Many of them are facing either the intermediate or leaving certificate examinations in the coming weeks. I was shocked to hear the Minister in her statement to the Dáil on Tuesday night last state that these pupils could now move to schools within certain catchment areas. We all know that it has not been the tradition or the accepted principle for pupils to move from one school to another in the middle of a school year. What is really annoying is the fact that pupils are being segregated and divided among themselves by reason of the imposition of the various charges proposed by the Minister.
The proposal with regard to school catchment areas is quite shocking. I should like to ask the Minister, with regard to County Leitrim, what are the various catchment areas for the various schools within the county? I know that these catchment areas have been operated in a very flexible way since they were first implemented. I would appreciate if the Minister could tell the House today what are the given boundary areas for the various schools. I am referring to the schools in Carrickallen, Mohill, Ballinamore, Carrick-on-Shannon, Manorhamilton and Drumkeerin. There is a situation arising where children who live on one side of the road are told that they must go to a school which they have not previously attended because they are outside the catchment areas. Yet in some cases those schools are up to three miles further away from them than the schools they are attending. In the Mohill post-primary catchment area pupils from the Bornacoola area are being told that they must go to schools in County Longford. Yet these schools are two and three miles, in some cases further, from their homes than are the schools they are now attending. In addition they must travel two miles to meet the bus whereas up to now they could avail of the bus that passed their doors.
This whole situation has been brought to a ridiculous state. The regulations that were supposed to be implemented earlier this year have collapsed totally. On occasions I have contacted CIE and the Department with regard to the problems that have arisen. One is told by CIE that they are complying with a regulation from the Department of Education, while the Department state that CIE are the problem. I should like the Minister to clarify the position of people who have submitted payments but who have not yet received school bus tickets and also the position of those who have submitted medical cards. A medical card should not be used as a criterion for school transport. The holding of a medical card is a private and medical matter and should not be used as a guideline for any scheme other than the medical schemes. It has no place in letting everyone know the children who are availing of school transport without charge.
The fact that pupils outside the catchment area are being forced to pay a higher rate of contribution leads to the problem that where there are undefined areas, children are being put off buses who should be entitled to be left on. I would appreciate if the Minister would tell me where I might be in a position to inspect the maps with regard to County Leitrim and its school boundaries. Despite attempts by a number of people in this regard nobody has been given the opportunity of seeing the catchment area maps. The overlapping of boundaries is quite peculiar. There is one case that arises where a child who is a half a mile further down the road is entitled to free transport to a school whereas a child two miles nearer is not so entitled due to the fact that a river which cuts across the road leaves that child to one side of what is supposed to be a catchment area. Thus that child is forced to go to the school which is not the school of his choice and not the school nearest to him.
In view of the fact that there is such a short time left in this school year, would the Minister reconsider the position with regard to the entire school transport system not only for County Leitrim but for pupils all over the country who are now facing their toughest time as regards examinations at school level or at national level? This pressure now being brought to bear on these pupils will have a definite effect on their performance and the Minister will in the future have a lot to answer for to those pupils because we all know how critical marks are when it comes to examinations in regard to points for entry to university and points for entry to a number of other occupations. Two points can mean the difference between somebody being able to pursue the career he would have liked and having to settle for a second choice.
I do not wish to interrupt the Senator but at no stage yet have you mentioned the removal of children from school buses, which was the basis on which I accepted the motion.
I did mention the fact that pupils who are attending post-primary schools in County Leitrim have been removed this week from the buses, especially those attending post-primary schools in Mohill who have really suffered this week in a much greater way than was the case previously. What I am saying here is of relevance to the fact that these pupils like others up and down the country, are being discriminated against because of the proposed charges being implemented at a time when the pupils are at their most vunerable.
The Minister has a duty to those pupils in County Leitrim and elsewhere to allow them the facilities which they were granted by the issue of school bus tickets in September 1982. These tickets were issued to them on the basis that they would be valid until June 1983. The Minister is being asked here to take immediate action with regard to pupils attending schools in the various centres in County Leitrim to allow them to be carried on school buses until the end of this school term. I am asking her also to reexamine the entire position with regard to the whole school transport system with a view to bringing forward a fair and equitable solution to the problem, a solution which would allow the service and the facility of free transport to continue. I do not know how long the Minister wishes to have to reply to this motion. If she could indicate this, perhaps I could arrange with Senator Mullooly, who wishes to speak also, as regards the time factor.
I am in the situation that if someone on the other side of the House offers I must allow him to speak. I cannot commit myself to Senator Mullooly or to any other Senator but the Minister will have whatever time is left. We must finish by 3 o'clock.
The Standing Order states that the Minister is entitled to 20 minutes. I wonder if she wishes to have 20 minutes to reply.
I do not think you are right. It is a different Standing Order.
The Senator is wasting his own time.
I may be upsetting Senator Ferris's plans for the evening. The issue of these pupils who were this week in Mohill removed from the CIE facilities of taking them to school has caused irreparable damage to some of their future prospects. A number of those pupils, due to local agitation and due to some local hold-up, were a number of minutes late for State examinations. This is very serious. The Minister, in her wisdom, should now look at the position with regard to the school transport situation and see if she can see her way to allowing these pupils to be carried. She should also carry out an investigation as soon as possible into the reasons for some of the people who submitted the necessary moneys and medical cards, where they are applicable, were not given tickets. While the children in question have not been removed from the buses, they should have been allocated their tickets. I would appreciate also if she could tell me what means are at her disposal to allow these pupils to be conveyed to the schools they are now attending.
I have no doubt that the Minister, having a rural constituency, knows the problems facing these people in rural areas. In view of the fact that Senator Mullooly wishes to make a contribution I would now like to offer him the opportunity of doing that.
Something that intrigues me is why Senator Ellis has waited this long to raise the question of the anomalies in the catchment boundary areas in County Leitrim because to my recollection the catchment boundaries were designed and drafted back in the mid-sixties. There was at that point in time a certain degree of liaison, co-operation and consultation with various school bodies, managements, authorities and indeed a transport liaison officer. In most cases the CEO in the respective county was appointed to liaise and the maps were made available for inspection and so on. I can appreciate that possibly because of the events in County Leitrim and indeed in other rural areas in the past week this has brought the matter to a head.
I come from an area like County Leitrim but I will deal with the situation in a Leitrim context. I agree with Senator Ellis that there is a high degree of dependence on school transport. So far it has been an excellent service. It has been a very reliable service but a service that has been under-appreciated. For the service to operate efficiently it is obvious that it must be organised and structured. We must have rules and regulations and we must stick to them in County Leitrim and in any other county for that matter. The only way in which this can be done is by building a catchment area around a particular centre. But when this was being done there were consultations with the various interested parties and the catchment areas which we now have emerged therefrom. I would agree, however, that there are some anomalies. I was astounded to hear that there was an anomaly as great as a two-to-three mile variation as in County Leitrim. I wonder will this on examination and on inspection stand up.
The whole idea of the school transport system is to minimise the amount of duress on pupils and to facilitate their educational development. Inside a certain area it is presumed and assumed that they can either walk, or have the wherewithal to get to the particular centre themselves in County Leitrim. Outside that particular perimeter, school transport is freely available. On the basis of new regulations introduced by the Minister, free travel is now available outside that perimeter but within the confines of the catchment area in County Leitrim for anybody who has a medical card. Medical cards are a very fair method of deciding arbitrarily whether somebody is entitled to free transport. Those people who are on health boards or who are associated with local authorities and so on will tell you that in order to qualify for a medical card, the health authorities must take into consideration such factors as hardship cases, chronic ailments, the means of the family, the number of dependants in the family and so on.
The real crux, however, arises in the Border catchment areas. But in order to have a catchment area you must draw a line. That line, by and large I can safely say in most cases, is a fair line based usually on a six-mile radius around the particular centre. In order to have it operated efficiently it at times splits parishes. At times it splits village areas and townlands. At times it differentiates between one side of the road and the other. But this is the way in which it has been structured and must be structured. If you start allowing flexibility then you open the floodgates in County Leitrim and everywhere else. I would, therefore, exhort the Minister that there is one occasion possibly in which she should show flexibility. That is in relation to subjects which are not available within a particular catchment area but are available in an adjacent catchment area. I mean adjacent and not that one would have to leap-frog from one catchment area over another one. In those cases, in order to allow equal rights and equal scope within the education system to everybody, there should be provision that if somebody can take himself to the edge of a catchment area in order to get into a catchment centre or towards a centre that allows a subject that is not in his native catchment area, some provision should be allowed for free transport.
Again, I am somewhat amazed that both the Minister and CIE are being portrayed in this debate as being bailiffs. The overriding principle in this debate seems to be the care and the concern for the child. People have short memories in this regard. It is only eight short months ago when babies and children were discriminated against by the then Minister for Health, who will go down in history as the Minister who took the cough bottle from the child. I have no doubt whatever that the Minister will have a compassionate look at the situation. There are anomalies in the system but I believe that the system, when it is examined by the Minister, will be improved considerably and that we will start off the school year in September with a slightly more rational system, a better system and a more equitable system as a result of the Minister's initiatives.
I rise to support the case made by Senator Ellis. I would ask the Minister to accept that the recently-introduced arrangements are not working, that they are leading to chaos and confusion that they are imposing severe hardships on many pupils in Leitrim and elsewhere. Children who were previously carried are now being left on the roadside. Many of these children will be doing examinations in a couple of weeks time. These children are faced with the choice of either travelling on foot or by bicycle for long distances to school or else missing school during those vital weeks before their examinations.
I know that the Minister said in the Dáil that she does not accept that there is chaos and confusion as a result of the recently-introduced arrangements. But if she reads today's papers she will see that the representatives of two of the major school parents' organisations in the country, Mrs. Mary O'Carroll of the Catholic Secondary School Parents' Association and Ailis Bean Uí Riain of the Christian Brothers Schools Parents' Federation, have both agreed that there is chaos and confusion throughout the country and that very many children are affected by this. It affects them in Leitrim and the counties adjoining Leitrim where some children have to travel from those counties to post-primary schools in Leitrim. There is confusion as to who should pay and who should be allowed to travel free. There is a situation in the catchment boundary areas where pupils are being collected at the same pick-up point. If we take two pupils, whose parents are the holders of medical cards one of those pupils has to pay £24 to travel to school on the school bus while the other pupil is carried free. Senator Higgins referred to the catchment boundary area situation and conceded that there is confusion in relation to that.
Free education was introduced in 1967 and, at the same time, the free transport scheme was introduced for students who were three miles or more from an adequate post-primary centre. For the purposes of the transport scheme the country was divided up into catchment areas but what happened was that the Department in many cases adopted catchment area maps which had been drawn up by the planning section of the Department in connection with post-primary school rationalisation which they were studying at that time. Those maps were then adopted as guidelines for school transport but in many cases they proved inoperable in practice. It was because of this that the transport section and the transport liaison officers made practical decisions which, in effect, ignored the maps and opted instead for what were referred to as logical routes. As a result, those catchment area maps became irrelevant as guides to operational and accepted catchment boundaries and remained so until the advent of the recent decision to impose school transport charges.
With the decision to impose those charges the Department have reverted to using those outdated and irrelevant maps. This is responsible to a large degree for the confusion that we have. The new ruling on catchment boundary pupils and on charges to catchment boundary pupils ignores all the agreements and the decisions worked out and agreed on since 1967. Pupils from areas now described once again as catchment boundary pupils over the years have been given entitlement to full free transport to post-primary schools. The situation is that we can have two pupils who a couple of months ago were regarded as having entitlement to full free transport, and whose parents have medical cards, now being treated differently. One is being charged £24 to be carried to school and the other is travelling free.
There is so much confusion, chaos and so much hardship being inflicted on pupils that the Minister should suspend the recently announced arrangements until such time as there can be a satisfactory and suitable scheme worked out. I have no doubt that the Minister will get the co-operation of the school authorities, the parents and the Fianna Fáil Party's spokesperson on Education. She was guaranteed this co-operation last evening in the Dáil. I have no doubt that during the summer holidays it will be possible to work out a suitable and satisfactory school transport scheme for the country. In view of the fact that we are so close to examination time and that there are sufficient stresses and strains on pupils who are sitting for examinations the Minister should take this factor into consideration and give an amnesty in respect of the current charges. The Minister should suspend the operation of any school transport charges until September, the beginning of the new school year.
I agree with Senator Ellis that it is undesirable that medical cards be used as a criterion for accepting eligibility for school transport. Medical cards were introduced in order to determine eligibility for health services and while the Minister said in the Dáil that there is confidentiality, sensitivity and anonymity in relation to the way eligibility for free school transport is being investigated, she will have to admit that in rural areas it is very difficult to have confidentiality in relation to such matters. Pupils are aware if their colleagues have free transport because their parents hold medical cards and those who have not free transport because their parents do not have medical cards. It is impossible to preserve confidentiality in a rural situation. I understand Senator Lanigan wants to contribute for a few minutes so I will finish on that note.
I have decided to call on the Minister next and if there is any time left I will have to go to this side of the House and then to Senator Lanigan. Before I call on the Minister I should like to take this opportunity of welcoming her here to the House. She is a former colleague and we worked together here for some years.
Without being disrespectful to the Minister. I wonder when she is replying if she would deal with——
That is completely out of order.
It is either out of order or a speech.
——the question of the population pyramids within catchment areas.
That has been reasonably well developed.
I should like to thank the Cathaoirleach for his kind words, which I appreciate very much. I am very glad to be in the Seanad where I spent many happy years, a House which I consider to be an extremely important part of Irish democracy. Senators will be aware that when the Government assumed office on 15 December 1982 they had a mandate to tackle the very severe economic and inflationary problems the country was facing. Most significant among those problems was the extent of borrowing to meet current expenditure and one important and stated objective of Fine Gael policy was the phased elimination of current budget deficit. Indeed, Fianna Fáil before leaving office had made movements in this direction and these movements were reflected in the Book of Estimates published on 18 November 1982. The Government had indicated to the electorate their acceptance of the main points in this Book of Estimates and within those Estimates was a provision of £28.2 million for the operation of the school transport services in 1983. This provision, made by Fianna Fáil when in office was made in the full knowledge that the cost of operating the school transport service in 1983 on the same basis as 1982 would be £33.6 million. This left a shortfall of £5.4 million. The then Fianna Fáil Minister for Education, Deputy Gerard Brady, in a statement issued on 18 November 1982 in connection with the publication of the Estimates indicated that the charges would be introduced for school transport in the case of pupils in post-primary schools. He foresaw the arrangements as consisting of the issue of a season ticket with a lower charge for junior pupils and with a concession to take account of the circumstances of larger families. The Government on assuming office adopted the general outline of this approach but amended it to take account of families for whom the payment of school bus charges on behalf of their children would constitute undue financial hardship. Accordingly they introduced from the beginning a concession whereby senior cycle pupils attending their appropriate centres and whose parents or legal guardians were holders of medical cards would be exempt from the charge.
On a point of order, I am sorry to have to intervene when the Minister is speaking but the Chair asked me to be specific with regard to the area I was dealing with and the Minister should do likewise.
It was the Senator who widened the scope of the debate completely.
I am putting this question in context as to why students were refused admission to school buses last week in County Leitrim particularly. This concession of the medical card for senior cycle students was followed after consultation and experience by the extension of that concession to junior cycle pupils and, as the House may be aware, the charges were: junior cycle pupils, £14 per term; senior cycle pupils, £24 per term. Students who attended a centre other than the appropriate centre, that is catchment boundary pupils, £24 per term. In consideration of the circumstances of large families the Government limited the contribution payable by any family to a maximum of £50 per term. The circular which went out also detailed the question of the exemption of medical card holders. Once those charges had been established and accepted by the majority of users of the school transport system it followed in equity that any pupil on whose behalf the appropriate charge had not been paid or who had not been excused the charge forfeited the right to continue to use the service. Indeed, had charges not been introduced and the contributions as outlined sought from parents, the range and scope of the service would have had to be substantially restricted. I would emphasise that, taking into account the concession towards parents who would experience financial hardship, the Government were seeking by way of contributions from parents £1 million less than that sought under the Fianna Fáil proposals of 18 November 1982.
It is important to spend some minutes on the catchment boundary facility difficulty which has been raised by Senators. It is a topic on which there is a great deal of ignorance generally and problems arising in many areas. I know that Senators, perhaps, are not aware of the history of it. There are also examples sometimes quoted of very large and flourishing schools which stand to lose a few pupils to adjacent and less populous centres unless the catchment boundary concession is put on a par with the conditions for pupils who have full eligibility within the terms of the school transport scheme. It is very important that we should be clear as to what we are talking about.
For the purposes of school transport the country is divided up into catchment areas, each such area served by its own adequate post-primary centre. In response to Senator Higgins, who asked about the definition of an adequate post-primary centre, I should like to state that a centre is deemed adequate on the basis of having a satisfactory range of subjects. These subjects include Irish, English, mathematics, a science subject, a modern language, a practical subject such as art, home economics, mechanical drawing and so on. These catchment areas were drawn up initially in consultation with schools authorities and had regard to distance and traditional patterns of attendance as well as to the economics of school transport and the maintenance of a viable network of post-primary school services. Pupils who live more than three miles from the post-primary centres serving their catchment areas are eligible for transport to those centres. As a special concession pupils who are eligible for school transport but who choose for reasons of their own not to attend the post-primary centre serving their catchment area but to go instead to the centre serving an adjoining catchment area are granted what is known as catchment boundary facility. To avail themselves of this facility pupils must board the school bus within the catchment area of the centre they are attending. They are themselves responsible, and they always have been responsible, for getting to such a boarding point and there never has been any question of their using school transport services for this purpose. Once they have got to the catchment area of the centre they are attending they may be given transport to that centre subject to the payment of a catchment boundary charge of £24 and provided there is spare accommodation on the school bus after all eligible pupils have been served.
The medical card concession does not apply to pupils availing themselves of catchment boundary facilities. It is hardly necessary for me to defend a long established structure of school transport services or to point to the fact that the service was established in the first instance to enable children who would have had difficulty on grounds of distance in making a satisfactory attendance at school to do so. The service was not and could not be established to assist in the exercise of choice as between one post-primary centre and another.
When pupils choose to go to school outside the centre serving their catchment area they do so in the knowledge that transport may not be available at all or that, even if they can be accommodated initially as catchment boundary pupils, their continued transport is not guaranteed as they can be displaced at any time by an increase in the number of eligible pupils using the particular service.
If one looks at the catchment boundary facility in this light, in County Leitrim or anywhere else, it is perfectly clear why the medical card concession cannot and should not be extended to pupils wishing to avail themselves of the catchment boundary facility. Firstly, the use of the catchment boundary facility is not a necessary prerequisite to ensure a satisfactory attendance at school on the part of pupils who would have difficulty in doing so on grounds of distance. It arises solely from a free choice made by the pupil not to go to the centre serving the catchment area in which he lives but rather to go to a centre frequently more distant serving an adjoining catchment area.
Secondly, catchment boundary transport is in itself a concession within the terms of the school transport scheme and is not guaranteed. Should the medical card concession be extended to pupils wishing to avail themselves of the catchment boundary facility the conditions would certainly arise when there would be pupils entitled to claim the medical card concession and for whom no catchment boundary transport would be available.
Thirdly, such an extension would clearly raise extremely difficult problems of priority where pupils in excess of the spare capacity of the service are applying for catchment boundary transport. Should pupils entitled to avail themselves of the medical card concession be given priority over pupils on whose behalf the appropriate charge must be paid? I need not comment on the threat such an arrangement would pose to the anonymity of the arrangements attending the medical card concession. On the point of anonymity, it is extremely important to stress that every child travelling on the school buses who has a ticket has an identical ticket. Therefore, there is anonymity and no difference whatsoever between children travelling free or children who are paying. They have precisely the same ticket.
At present priority in catchment boundary transport is given in accordance with seniority within the post-primary school course and this is seen to be the most equitable system of allocating a restricted number of places. With a medical card concession in operation the conflicting claims of medical card status and seniority would not be subject to ready resolution. I will now refer to some of the points made by some of the speakers on other questions. As regards the availability of maps or details of catchment boundary areas, of course any person can inspect at any time the maps of the catchment boundary facility in the offices of the transport liaison officers, the CEOs, in every county. I am sure the Senators who are concerned on this point will immediately make it their business to avail of that facility. On the question of my spending the summer reconsidering the whole question of school transport, which was made by colleagues of some of the Senators in the other House, that suggestion, if it were acted upon, would be grossly unfair to the vast majority of users of the system who have indeed complied with the regulations, fulfilled them, who are using the school transport system and who are very anxious that the transport system available to them would continue.
With regard to the point when payment has been submitted, or medical cards have been submitted, and no ticket has issued, I am not aware of such cases and if Senators who are aware of such cases bring them to my attention I will have those details looked into immediately.
On the question of catchment boundary areas, there was a suggestion that there was some flexibility or changeability about those areas. In fact catchment areas are not flexible and all the centres have clearly designed catchment areas. These catchment boundary areas were established after a great deal of consultation with school authorities in all the areas concerned. No change whatsoever could be contemplated without considerable consultations with everybody involved, the school authorities in a large area and parents. There could be no question of that kind of flexibility as it would upset the arrangements which have been agreed to with existing schools.
I should like to make a couple of other points arising from what has been said. It was brought to our attention that in County Leitrim there were some incidents of children being refused admission on school buses because they had not paid and some attempts made to stop the buses. I want to make it quite clear that on 1 March all parents were advised to pay the school bus fees or submit medical cards by 8 April in order to be issued with tickets. That notice was issued on 1 March. This date was extended to 27 April. Notification of the extension of that date was carried by a series of prime-time television and radio advertisements, by advertisements in all local newspapers and the bus drivers informed all the children that the final date for payment or application was 27 April. It was made quite clear in all of those advertisements and in every notification that after Monday 9 May children without tickets would not be able to travel. That fact was carried quite clearly and was generally heard all over this country.
I find it regrettable that parents should have decided to ignore all these reminders for whatever reason. Parents themselves, therefore, ran the risk of depriving their children of school transport. Of course, it is particularly regrettable — as mentioned by some Senators — if their children are facing public examinations. Parents making that decision, having been warned very clearly in the most widespread manner possible, made the decision to deprive their children of school transport. I find it regrettable that many parents were encouraged to behave in this way. I believe that the people — for whatever reason — who encouraged parents to behave in that way share a responsibility for the consequences to those children in terms of problems with examinations. I want to make it clear that the responsibility for children not being able to travel because the tickets have not been applied for rests squarely on those who made the decision not to comply with the regulations.
An even more regrettable aspect of recent times is that despite all the warnings, and all the advance notifications, in some isolated places some small groups organised action of an illegal nature blocking school buses thereby depriving all children, those who hold medical cards and those who have paid, of transport to school. I find that extremely regrettable. I believe the word "reprehensible" is not too strong.
The main concern I have is to make sure that the school transport system will continue to be available to parents who wish their children to use it. I will insist that we have a full system of school transport. I cannot justify the costs of the school transport system here at this time. It would be well to realise that the arrangements for the school transport charges were introduced specifically to enable the school transport services to be maintained on a basis which would provide a comprehensive service on a wide geographical basis. The operation of the scheme is difficult and complex. Much preparatory work has to be completed each summer before the commencement of the next school year. It should be understood that unless very positive and immediate steps are taken to establish the basis on which the school transport system operates in the next school year difficulties may arise in relation to the range of services to be provided. I need to emphasise that the deposits being requested from parents in respect of the children to be carried on the school transport service in 1983-1984 should be paid by the specific date of 16 June. It would be a very serious disservice to pupils concerned to create a situation where there could be any confusion in regard to the necessity for compliance with this essential requirement for the establishment of the basis of transport arrangements from the beginning of September. Any groups or people who encourage parents not to comply with this latest request run the risk of depriving children of school transport services in the coming school year.
I hope I have answered most of the points made by Senators. I will be happy, of course, to deal with specific details if Senators wish to bring them to me.
I have a situation here where we have only five minutes left and Senator Ellis has the right to reply. He is at liberty to give some of that time to somebody else but then I must take the next speaker from the Government side of the House. There is five minutes left and I will leave it to the Senators concerned to work it out between themselves.
I raised this matter on a specific area, County Leitrim. I agree with the Cathaoirleach that the contributions — even by myself — wandered a little further than county boundaries or the schools within that county but I am disappointed with the Minister's reply in view of the fact that she did not state — except to name the county — what, if any, proposals she had to deal with the problems of pupils in that county. I mentioned a few specific areas, especially with regard to post-primary schools in Mohill, County Leitrim. I am aware that there may have been a request to the Minister recently to meet a deputation from that area with regard to the school transport problem. I do not know if she is willing to meet them but I feel she might. If she has time in the future I hope she will agree to meet a deputation from there to discuss the specific problems the people have in that area. We all know that there are grey areas involved but Mohill, in particular, is one which is surrounded by other post-primary schools. It is an area where quite an amount of tradition has been built up with regard to the schools that pupils attend. The Minister would be doing the parents in the area a service if she agrees to meet them in the near future to discuss their problems.
I put it to the Minister when I was speaking earlier that I hoped, in view of the short term left, she would agree to allow pupils to be carried from now until the end of the school year. In her reply the Minister stated she was not prepared to allow that concession. In fact, the Minister has blamed the party to which I belong for being the baddies in this case, in view of the fact that the Estimates proposed by Fianna Fáil were less than what was said by the Department to be necessary to implement the school transport scheme. Had Fianna Fáil been in power they would have implemented the cuts in a much more humanitarian way than the way in which they have now been implemented.
It is all in the little book.
Being from an urban area, Senator Magner would not understand what it is all about. He would not know what it is to stand at the end of a lane to wait for the school bus. When he was going to school I presume he would have stood at a bus stop. At least he would have had the pleasure of having transport to school.
It would not take a very good transport manager to arrange to cut £5 million from a transport system.
I hope the Minister, who has said she will re-examine the position, will allow the scheme to proceed as it has been proceeding until now, until such time as she has reviewed the position. I hope that at this late stage she will see her way to allow pupils who have been deprived of the facility, especially those in Leitrim, to continue to use the system until the end of the school term, only three weeks away. If she compares the charges which she imposed with the charges to send those pupils to school by private bus, she will find it would have been much cheaper for the parents to hire and to pay a private bus service. I am asking the Minister to reply to my request to meet a deputation of parents from the Mohill second level catchment area to discuss their problems.
Senator Ellis should have asked that when he spoke earlier. The time is up.
I should like to ask those who made this comprehensive study of Ireland and who drew lines on the map if they had taken into account that population changes take place. Because of those lines on the map children are either eligible or ineligible for school transport. In the educational system there is a pyramid which changes, and lines on maps——
I am calling on the Leader of the House.
It is proposed to adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 May 1983.
The Seanad adjourned at 3 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 25 May 1983.