I just wish to make the point that I sincerely hope that, as a result of this order, somebody will get training in mining. As I have said, it appears to me to be a purely cosmetic exercise. I would like to hear the Minister's views. I would like him to reassure me that there will be jobs available in mining and that there will be as many jobs for female trainees as there are for male trainees.
Employment Equality Act, 1977 (Employment of Females in Mines) Order, 1984: Motion (Resumed.)
Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann approves the following Order in draft:—
Employment Equality Act, 1977 (Employment of Females in Mines) Order, 1984
a copy of which Order in draft was laid before Seanad Éireann on 28th November, 1984.
—(Professor Dooge.)
It is only right that I should intervene briefly in the discussion on this particular order. I am one of those who is concerned for women's rights and I complain when we, in this country, tend, as we so often do, to my regret, to be the last to remove some particular discrimination against women.
I was delighted to read the other day, although the author was being slightly anticipatory, that Ireland is one of the two countries which allow women to go down mines. In fact, not until we and the other House pass this order will that be so. I am glad to see us in the vanguard, if only on a minor matter.
There was a suggestion on the Order of Business today that all we were discussing were a couple of orders, and that it was hardly worth the Seanad's while to come together tomorrow to discuss the question of women's rights in relation to education which, as I will point out at some length tomorrow, is an aspect of the women's rights situation which is fundamental. I want to say that it is well worth the while of this House to discuss this order today and to discuss the question of women's rights in regard to education tomorrow.
There has been an ironical twist. It was the liberal thing in the 19th century to agitate that women be taken out of the mines. It is now the liberal thing in the 20th century to agitate that women be allowed to go down mines. This is not really an inconsistency. The problem has not changed. The situation in the 19th century was that women and children were used in mines because they provided cheap labour. It was the exploitation of women and children that was corrected by the reformers of the 19th century. Here, we find ourselves in the position that women are being discriminated against in this regard. It is not the only area. I would certainly urge the Minister that this is only the first of a number of areas. We are now one of two who have taken the first action in regard to this. I would like the Minister and the Minister of State to look around them and maybe we could find an area in which we would be the first to take action. I would be happy to applaud that.
The order is a good one. It is something to which everyone on each side of the House can assent to. Being critical on so many occasions, I feel it necessary to rise and be congratulatory on this one.
I agree with what Senator Hillery has said and with what Senator Robinson has echoed in regard to the support, whether it be moral support or financial support, both are very desirable, for the Employment Equality Agency. We have moved, mostly under duress, in regard to the rectification of the problems arising from discrimination against women. Much of that discrimination perhaps is unconscious discrimination. We certainly have not moved nearly enough. Let us welcome every crumb and hope, in fact, there will be many more crumbs and a few whole loaves coming from the Minister's Department in the near future.
In welcoming this draft order we certainly have come the whole turn of the cycle. I can recall in secondary school learning about social legislation in Britain approximately 130 or 140 years ago, after the onset of the industrial revolution and noting the emergence of the various Acts for the improvement of the welfare of the working child and the working woman. We can all recall the various Factory Acts and Mine Acts which debarred children under a specified age and females from working underground in mines. This draft order is a complete rolling back of the various tenets of those particular pieces of legislation. Nonetheless, it is worthwhile. As the Minister stated at the outset, it emerged from anomalies in the Employment Equality Act, 1977.
I would like to place on the record of the House my welcome for the call by Mr. Justice Barrington's commission for further restrictive safety measures. I would agree generally that this is a non-contentious draft order. As the Minister of State has said, he was obliged to have consultations with the various interested groups. We note, therefore, that it has the full endorsement of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions and other interested bodies.
I would like to agree with some of the observations of Senator Hillery. By and large all we seem to have done in relation to equality of job opportunity for females is to have paid lip service to the matter. In terms of real tangible breakthroughs we have achieved very little. Last week and previously we debated a very voluminous report produced by Senator Robinson. It is very worthwhile but unfortunately a number of speakers did not seem to think it worth while to contribute as an indication of their solidarity with the various tenets and proposals set down therein. As recorded in that document, it has been unfortunate that with our entry to the EC, the particular industries in which females had the highest input in terms of employment, textiles, footwear, clothing etc., have been the ones that were most vulnerable in respect of shedding jobs when the crunch came. Because of automation and so on, due to the high concentration of females in those spheres of employment they have been the ones to suffer most as a result of new developments.
Senator Hillery mentioned that the new initiatives being undertaken by the Youth Employment Agency and AnCO have been largely male-orientated. The blame in this case does not so much lie with the agencies in question. I think both AnCO and the Youth Employment Agency are relatively flexible in relation to the type of projects they will undertake, sponsor, authorise or approve. It is the job and the responsibility and the task of local communities and organisations to have sufficient ingenuity to come up with schemes which are sufficiently female-orientated in order to provide adequate scope to redress the imbalance in this area.
Senator Hillery seemed to say that we are conditioned by our education to accept specified roles or subjects as primarily female and others as being male. He instanced metalwork and woodwork. From the information emerging from the Curriculum and Examinations Board, there would seem to be considerable ground for optimism that there is a major breakthrough in this respect. We all look forward with a high degree of expectation and optimism to the initial report of this group.
I would concur with the various aspirations in relation to further and adequate funding for the Employment Equality Agency and I concur to a large extent with the draft order.
I would like to begin by thanking Senators for the welcome they have given the proposed draft Order. Only that Senator Lanigan was a little more sceptical than some of his colleagues, it would be fair to say that there was near unanimity in welcoming the measure.
Senator Lanigan was wondering where the request for this measure came from. He wanted to know who was looking for it. Some of the people who were looking for it included the Commission on the Status of Women, the Commission of Inquiry on Safety, Health and Welfare at Work, the Council for the Status of Women, the Employment Equality Agency, the advisory committees that operate under the aegis of the Department of Labour, representatives from both sides of the industry and the student representative bodies. He also wanted to know if this was going to be an entirely academic exercise. I am happy to say to the House that the reason for the debate today and the impetus for the introduction of the measure was a request made to us by the mining industry who wanted to take on at least one, or perhaps more, female workers in the immediate future and saw the present legislation as an impediment to that. When the House gives its approval today — as it now seems likely it will — and the other House does so in due course, Senators can be satisfied that this will not be an academic exercise just to stay on the Statute Book. This will have real and immediate effect, even if only in a limited number of cases.
At least one.
A number of Senators broadened the discussion to address themselves to the wider area of equality. I welcome those remarks. Senators should take comfort from the fact that in this area they are clearly pushing an open door. That is evident from the priority that has been given by the Minister for Education, in her Programme for Action, to the need to eliminate sexism in education. This is a quite unique policy initiative taken by an Irish Minister. She is not content to do that only at a domestic level; she has also sought to bring the battle to Europe and has used her current presidency in office on the Council of Education Ministers. That commitment has been mirrored by the very personal interest that has been taken by the Minister for Labour, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, in the social affairs area. Again we have seen a response from him, both at a domestic level and at Community level. At a domestic level we have seen his response in terms of his statement issued last week and his earlier remarks in this House following the discussion on the secondary legislation report. I am happy to say to Senators that the whole question of positive action in favour of women will figure very prominently on the agenda for the Social Affairs Council when we get together in Brussels on Thursday, 13 December, just as it was a major item for discussion at the informal council held in Dublin, earlier in our term, and also at all the other gatherings held during our Presidency.
A number of Senators were anxious to know about the prospects for further amending legislation. May I say to Senator Dooge that this is, in fact, only one of four Acts which it is possible to amend by order under the 1977 legislation? I will happily comb the other three Acts in the hope of finding some similar measures and in the expectation that we might be first with one of them. If any Senators are in a position to find some of them before me, I would be delighted to hear about them and we will take those on board too.
On the more general question of legislation in the equality area I can say to Senators that this is an area that is receiving a very high priority within the Department at the moment. I must be frank and say that there is something of a legislative log-jam. That is because during the period 1973 to 1977 a whole raft of very substantial reforms were put into effect and put on the Statute Book by the then Coalition Government. We are now a decade down the road and it is appropriate that those measures should come up for review. The result is that we are engaged at the moment in a review of a number of them: the equality legislation, the unfair dismissals legislation, the worker participation legislation, to name but a few. I can say that the very clear political commitment of the Minister for Labour and my own commitment have been made clear to all and sundry. It is our determination that reviewing legislation will be before the Houses of the Oireachtas at the earliest possible opportunity.
May I say to Senator Robinson, who speculated as to which of the Houses of the Oireachtas such reviewing legislation will come before, that of the two measures we have been able to introduce to date one of them was introduced in this House and the other was introduced in the Dáil. That is a reasonable batting average and I see no reason why she should expect anything worse in the programme of legislation that is to come.
We will hold the Minister to that.
If the period from 1973 to 1977 was a very active one in the social affairs area, under a Coalition Government, Senators can expect a very busy legislative time during the remainder of this Government's first term in office. I thank Senators for the welcome they have given to this measure.
Question put and agreed to.