Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 6 Feb 1985

Vol. 107 No. 2

National Youth Policy Committee Report: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Seanad Éireann welcomes the Final Report of the National Youth Policy Committee which was laid before the House on 10 October 1984 and calls upon the Government to give full consideration to the findings of the Report which is a major contribution towards the establishment of a national youth policy.

—(Senator Browne.)

Mr. Burke

Last week I was dealing with the responsible attitude of young people in Ireland today towards the plight in which they find themselves. It is described as a crisis for the young people, and they have behaved magnificently to date.

The media has a very important influence on young people today, and it has been dealt with in the Report at some length. It is true that the vast majority of the media, whether it is the TV or the press, has acted very responsibly. On occasions, and all too often in recent times, there has been a fair degree of outcry against some of the material that has been shown on TV in particular and the influence it has had on the young people. There is no doubt that probably more than any other educational process today television has a great influence in moulding the attitudes of young people. Parents, as the primary educators, have to take second place to the television when the people want to see it. All too often violence has been shown and it has been shown at a time when young impressionable minds would be, in normal circumstances, allowed to see it. There is, of course, the option of cutting off that service to them, but that only makes it a more powerful influence on the young mind.

Much of the crime in which young people become involved today is attributed to the violence being shown on certain types of television programmes. There is a responsibility, therefore, on the media to be conscious of how impressionable young people are and to be sensitive to their needs.

Very often certain aspects of life are sensationalised in both the press and television. When job prospects are mentioned all too often the gloom and doom side is portrayed. Very often the less well able young people become despondent and apathetic. There is a responsibility on the media to be very clear and decisive in what they present and the way in which it is presented to young people. The reports we have had this summer and the two national surveys we have had on youth nail much of the propaganda we have had in the press as a lie in so far as that their attitudes and the actual employment record in the year 1982/83 shows quite different figures from those we might see at a glance in the headlines of the national media. In this respect, I welcome the Minister for Education's decision to include in the curriculum review the media studies, which will allow young people to examine the media critically, what aspects of it to interpret and the way in which to interpret it.

The make-up of the committee, involving people from all areas of education, training and welfare has been reflected in the contents of the report. The most important trend running through it is the link between the educational process and the availability and the preparation for work after post primary schooling. One of the greatest anxieties among young people is whether they will get gainful employment immediately after their schooling.

I believe it is incumbent on the Minister with responsibility for youth to see that career guidance teachers are available to all students. Very many schools, schools in disadvantaged areas which need them most, do not have the help of a career guidance teacher. In the schools which have that facility all too often the efforts of the career guidance teacher are taken up by the more industrious students who want to gain entry to third level institutions by getting the points system organised for them, while the more ordinary student who wants to opt for the job scene has to take second place, very often to his eventual detriment. One thing left out of the Report is the connection between a positive career guidance system within the schools and the access of the general youth to that facility for their future. I would ask the Minister to take note of that and in the very near future to make that facility available to all post primary schools.

While we await the publication of the policy proper we cannot but acknowledge the important work that has been done by the voluntary organisations down the years, not only in the urban areas but also in the rural areas. Ten or fifteen years ago organisations in many areas were not very popular, but today we have countless numbers of people involved in voluntary effort to help out the young, the disadvantaged, and to keep them away from the many distractions they may have and which might lead to their involvement with the law or otherwise. I mention in particular the National Youth Council, Macra na Feirme and other organisations which have done tremendous work in bringing the youth together and getting them to know themselves and each other and how to live with each other. There is an important social aspect to it as well as an important aspect with regard to their behaviour within society. These organisations have, in the past, operated on a voluntary basis and with scant recognition from the Government of the day.

We are glad that there has been a positive response by this Government within the limits of the resources available. Nearly £3 million has been designated to these organisations. It is regrettable that the Opposition spokesperson for youth affairs, when this report was being discussed in the other House, said that it was regrettable that teachers and gardaí did not involve themselves very much. He said that even if they each gave one hour per week it would be a very important contribution. Is he unaware of the wonderful work that has been done by members of the gardaí, by teachers and others in society to help young people? It was a most blatant attack on the people who have given most and given freely and unselfishly of their time. I would hope that he would rectify that statement in the official report.

Is é an t-aon rud amháin a chuireann brón orm ná nach bhfuil focal nó alt sa tuairisc seo faoi athbheochain na Gaeilge.

Acting Chairman (Séamus De Brún)

Tá an t-am istigh. Tá brón orm.

Mr. Burke

Tá mé críochnaithe anois. Is é mo thuairim go bhfuilimid ag braith ar ógánaigh na hÉireann chun an Ghaeilge a labhairt agus a chur ar aghaidh. Tá an Ghaeilge ag na daoine seo agus caithfimíd deis a thabhairt dóibh an Ghaeilge a úsáid ina ngnáth shaol.

The last plea I make is that the Minister in power today should take one last look and ensure that in the case of all national boards and particularly on the governing boards of university colleges and technical colleges young people and student councils should have a place as of right. This would show the importance of youth in our society. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Mrs. Honan

I would like to pay a warm and special tribute to Mr. Justice Declan Costello and to everybody who had a part to play in this excellent report. I hope the Minister and his Government will show some of the knowledge and, more important, the commitment that committee have shown.

Most of us serving in public life are sick of reports and of committees. Unfortunately this Coalition Government, as indeed previous Coalition Governments, have a magnificent record of sheaves and sheaves of paper but no positive action. The Minister in September in the other House asked for the views of the Members of the other House. He has now asked for the views of my colleagues and me. The Taoiseach said he did not want a leisurely debate. We are now three months on. The Minister is asking us tonight for our views. I know there are not too many of you listening to your Leader these days, but I hope you will remember that he made that remark.

I understand that new legislation is necessary for some of the recommendations. I would like to know when this legislation will be available. Many of the recommendations could be implemented with the present legislation. I do not see any excuse for not getting some positive results from an excellent document from Mr. Justice Costello.

There are marvellous figures being bandied about these days about unemployment. There is a round figure of 217,000. There is a round figure of 230,000. The correct figure today, I understand, without another 1,325 coming on stream, is 234,000 unemployed. There is no use talking about green papers or grey papers or blue ones while this is the unemployment figure. The committee do not take sides on all the agencies dealing with youth. They know the value of each agency, they know the money each agency gets or is reputed to get and they are asking for a clear definition of the responsibilities of the different agencies and the manner in which they work. I do not think it should surprise any of us that the people who sat on this committee were confused as to where this money goes. I am confused and many of my colleagues are also. Since that levy was put on £200 million has been collected in three years. I do not know where that money has gone. I do not know how many jobs that money created. I want somebody to tell me. A sum of £7 million was switched again yesterday. Why was it switched? When the Government put this levy on the taxpayer they were quite clear as to where it was to go, it was to be used for jobs. We are talking about £200 million of a levy, and where is it going?

It must be recognised that some aspects of the youth policy of the Costello report are complex and will require time to deal with them but a lot should be resolved speedily. I implore the Minister to listen to me. I ask that full time youth workers be funded by this Government. They are working below a subsistence level wage at present. We have lost great people from the youth field who went into it absolutely and totally committed. To ask them to work for some ridiculous wage and that the rest of the money should be collected on a voluntary basis is a load of trash. I saw committed young people along the western seaboard going into this to become committed youth leaders. Some people think that by reading books and joining organisations they can become good politicians. The same thing applies to good committed youth leaders. You do not become a leader by reading a book or joining any organisation. I ask for 100 per cent Government funding for them. They should have a proper salary scale. There is no point in saying something cannot be done now. I am talking about the youth leaders.

Another interesting thing is the positive expression of concern from these young people. It is quite clear from the report to anyone who went to the trouble to read it, that there was extraordinary concern for other people regardless of how little they had themselves. They were prepared to participate in North-South relations. They were concerned about Irish unity. They were concerned about peace in the world. They were quite clear that they wanted to foster and create an understanding among all of us, whether it be here or abroad. I would like if what was said in the report was recorded here this evening. They said:

Naturally we would hope that our conclusions would be favourably received. But if they are not it is very important that the Government should explain why and announce its alternative proposals. What is important is that the report is not greeted with silence. We recommend this course because of our perception of the seriousness of the present situation. If delays occur, and if an awareness is allowed to grow that nothing is going to happen following the establishment of yet another Government advisory committee then the disillusionment of our young people and (what is of equal importance) amongst those who have dedicated their lives in helping them could be considerable and significantly damaging to our society.

That is a very important statement and I hope the Minister and the Government will heed it.

I wish to refer to paragraph 13.5.3 of the report — The Need for Integration. I am referring to mentally handicapped and handicapped people. I support and welcome this section in the report. I am particularly concerned with the handicapped. I agree with the view expressed in the report that the key to integration lies in achieving a situation where disabled people are accepted not as different people but simply as people with different problems.

With reference to paragraph 13.5.6 on youth clubs, I would agree with the committee's recommendations that the Government when grant-aiding youth organisations should give favourable treatment to the organisations which are engaged in bringing the disabled into membership. With reference to paragraph 13.5.7 of the report, I urge that attention be given to what the committee said about employment and training of young disabled persons. Paragraph 13.5.13 of the report refers to the severely handicapped. There is a special problem in relation to the accommodation of severely handicapped young people. The committee have placed as much importance on these special people as on all of us, and rightly so.

I hope that the Minister realises the urgency of this report. This is not another report to be left aside so that in a few months time the question will have to be asked what has become of it. I hope the Minister will give the grant-aid I have asked for youth leaders. The Minister spoke rather early in this debate so I do not know his opinion on what I have said. I am sure he does not agree with it. I understand the Minister has a constitutional right to speak whenever he likes. If he is that interested in what we think, it would be nice if he would come back and give his opinion on what we said.

I would like to know the Minister's plans for this, the International Youth Year. I do not know what the Minister's plans for it are. He has said he would like to hear what the Members of this House are saying.

I would like to pay tribute to the people who sat on the committee. I know at first hand the commitment of the people who sat on that committee. I do not think it is enough that we should comment on it in this House just for the sake of commenting on it, or that my colleagues in the other House should do likewise. We do not need new legislation to implement a lot of that report. It is one of the finest reports I have seen and I hope that we will at least be seen to act on it. I have never seen the youth as cynical about politicians as they are now. It is only together that we can change their attitude towards us. It is unfortunate that they feel like this because they are the ones who will replace us either in this House or the other House.

Mr. Ferris

I welcome the opportunity to say a few words on this motion which welcomes this report. One of the reasons why young people can be so cynical, and this report indicates some of their cynicism of political groupings, is the fact that in any debate we tend to have in either House of the Oireachtas there tends to be a certain element of political sniping at one another and trying to show that the other side has been remiss in certain areas. When you are dealing with an area like youth and the problems with which they are confronted and what we should do about them, they will be cynical if we just cast reflections at one another for political reasons.

During the last year of the previous Government's term of office, under the previous Taoiseach, the unemployment figures went up by 40,000. Many of those were young people. There is no satisfaction for young people in hearing me say that or saying that I am satisfied we are doing everything we possibly can in this area, because no matter what we do, with unemployment of the magnitude of 250,000 or thereabouts, it is not a problem peculiar to Ireland, it is also a problem in Britain and in most European countries. Unemployment is now running at 13,000,000. There is a major redirection of resources and commitment that all of us will have to take on board and see what exactly we can do for young people. The time for political sniping is over, because the young people are cynical of all of us. They want to see action now.

I welcome this report which was commissioned by the Government to put together, in as precise a form as possible, all the areas to which we as legislators should address ourselves. Under the excellent chairmanship of Mr. Justice Costello they have come up with a most excellent report and I would certainly commend it. I would also commend all those who participated in it. In respect of some of the participants their political affiliations are mentioned. In order that I would not be accused of being partisan I welcome the fact that Young Fine Gael participated as did the youth affairs officer of the SDLP. I wonder if Ogra Fianna Fáil were requested to be members of it or whether the Labour youth were there and whether they reacted for or against it. I am pleased that The Workers' Party made a submission, because in this area there must be an overall commitment from all of us. Perhaps Orga Fianna Fáil were involved. I know they have made a major commitment to it. Perhaps the Labour youth decided they would not participate.

I welcome the commitment of the Minister of State with responsibility for Youth Affairs, Deputy George Birmingham. The Minister said he was prepared to consider applications from all political parties for grant assistance towards the employment of an educational officer with a specific remit in the area of political education. Above all, and this is where the cynicism comes from, there is a lack of the knowledge of how the democratic process works here or in any country and a lack of interest among young people in how it works. Interview board members for local authorities or health boards will say that they always discover a complete lack of interest or knowledge among young people they interview in civic matters.

This must be a matter of concern to all of us, and for that reason I welcome the Minister's commitment to look at the political structures in an apolitical way and try to help the younger sections of those parties to have somebody to educate people along these lines, because it is a very, very important step. All of us who have any sort of commitment to the democratic process would want to see a continuing development of that concept and to understand completely how the system works. In this regard I would specifically ask the new curriculum board to address themselves to this problem and the importance of civics, ensuring that civics at that level is taught in our educational system.

In other countries, particularly in Germany, there is a teaching programme set up by a trust of one of the great founders of democracy in Germany to ensure that this objective will always be carried through and that all young Germans will actually be instilled with this knowledge of and understanding of and admiration for the democratic process. They have done that on the basis that when there is a danger to democracy by dictators or otherwise it is the young people of the country who always will be at risk first because they can be abused, misused or misled. Unless we instill in them at a very early age the whole fundamental principles of democracy it is quite likely that dictatorships could take over with the assistance of young people. That could easily happen here because they tend to turn frustrated away from the democratic process.

I am pleased that this report indicated that as regards violence and violent means towards the reunification of the country the young people who were surveyed did not reflect that view. But it is important that other democracies have spent money in the area of civic education for young people. I agree with the Leas-Chathaoirleach that the real wealth of this country lies in our youth and our future and indeed their own future depend on how they will respond to the immense challenge that faces them going into the next century.

I have suggested what the curriculum board might do and how they might approach the problem of changing the area of learning, to improve on the area of vocational education and technological education and not to be totally dependent on the system of education which we have had for a long number of years without reviewing it. It is important that we should review education and training skills. The educational system must be geared towards the computer and the microchip age which we are now in, and towards the changes that are likely to take place in the future. I am quite sure that if young people are educated and suitably qualified they can enjoy a very happy and healthy way of spending their leisure time and the increasing amount of leisure time that the younger generations are likely to have in the foreseeable future because of all the advances in technology. But if we as legislators ignore the main recommendations of this excellent report, particularly chapter 16 on page 250, then we will be the losers. I will quote a comment on the Taoiseach's statement from page 259 because the Leas-Chathaoirleach misquoted him. The Taoiseach made his remarks when he set up this committee to study the problem. The committee stated:

We are particularly heartened, therefore, by two things, which the Taoiseach said when speaking at our first meeting. He expressed the determination that we would not be seen as just another committee set up to talk away commitments, and later when explaining why a 12-month deadline was set for our report he underlined the urgency of our work by pointing out that we cannot afford the luxury of a leisurely debate.

Those remarks were directed at the members of the committee and not at the Members of the Oireachtas. They did not have a leisurely debate, they came up with their report in the appointed time and it is appropriate that they were set that guideline by the Taoiseach and the Government. In fairness, any statements that have emanated following the publication of that and any action that has been taken by the Minister of State present and indeed by the Government show that we all want action and not just a leisurely debate. It is appropriate that the Houses of the Oireachtas would debate it, but we do not want a leisurely debate. There is a very special role for youth in International Youth Year designated by the United Nations.

People want to pick out the sections of last week's budget that they do not like, and in every budget there are sections that people do not like, but the budget contained one common strand relating to these recommendations and to our commitment to young people, and that is the whole area of special allocations, capital and otherwise, that have been designated to youth this year, in the areas of sport, culture and training. So we cannot say that there has not been an instant response by way of budgetary provision and a commitment from everybody concerned that we would particularly mark the year by stimulating all these activities which in themselves are very important but in my opinion are not the most important.

I commend the Minister present for the way, immediately on taking office, he removed any doubt that youth leaders might have had throughout the country, and there was an element of doubt among them because for some reason the previous Government did not see fit to put them in place permanently without any doubts hanging over where their survival was. This Minister did that and it has been recognised. He invested quite a lot of money, and most of us who are involved with young people will be forever grateful because they were at sixes and sevens to know where they were going. That element of doubt about what we felt about the importance of their role has been removed.

The Youth Employment Agency has been set up and has Niall Green as its head, and has quite an amount of money available to it. It is now involved with AnCO to ensure that there is no duplication. Everybody that we speak to looks to people like Niall Green with a lot of regard for his ingenuity and intelligence and how he has addressed this problem. It is a major step forward in trying to ensure that there is a specific programme to employ young people. We cannot ignore the major contribution of AnCO, the vocational education committees which I am associated with, of CERT which has done a major job in the food industry and of ACOT with a green certificate in farming. There is a whole project and programme for identifying those areas, through Macra and otherwise, young people and the contribution they can make, and there is positive proof of this special emphasis.

In the end, our performance will be judged on how many young people we can actually place in productive employment. I was involved recently in the opening of a career guidance seminar over two days run by the sisters of a secondary school in County Tipperary and I have no doubt, listening to all the young people who contributed at that opening, that their one wish is to get into productive employment. It is important that we would consult with the trade union movement in this, because they have a major role to play. I would ask that the Government and ICTU would work hand in hand to come to grips with the problem of unemployment among our young people.

Our young people are better educated than ever before. They need direction and leadership. They need to be involved in all decisions made on their behalf. I know that this is happening through the national youth organisations, the cooperatives and all other movements involving young people. We want to put all these items on a secure permanent footing. What the Minister has done so far has given a tremendous boost in this area.

Any of the youth organisations we have come in contact with we can always talk to about their programmes of activities, what they are engaged in and what they would feel they would like to do for themselves. It is not enough just to identify the problems. We must act on these problems. Society is prepared to make a contribution towards this — the 1 per cent is an indication of that. The contribution that people in employment are prepared to make to the national Exchequer is in the interests of young people. Such contributions will be rewarded because the results for the national development of our country as a whole will be reflected by the happiness and peace young people can enjoy in employment and the satisfaction that they will have in doing something rather than just hanging around waiting to be directed by their peers and politicians. That is why they treat us so cynically. We must act and be seen to be acting. This Minister has a commitment to that, and I commend him for his efforts so far.

Mr. B. Ryan

The Minister is to be congratulated for many things, not least for his presence here and his remarkably rapid progress in politics, which is a demonstration yet again of the truth of probably my favourite quotation from any poet, from T.S. Elliott: "Do not let me hear the wisdom of old men. For the wisdom of old men is their fear." The success of somebody young like the Minister and the achievements of other people who are by any standards young is a very good indication, because the fact that I would even comment on it and comment on people becoming Ministers before they are 40 is one of these extraordinary assumptions about values and qualifications and things that says a lot about the real underlying state of our attitude to young people, which is really that they are very nice as long as they behave like their elders and do what their elders do, and as long as they do that they are very nice; but if they really begin to represent a different culture or a different view then we go into paroxysms of rage, whether it be about the content of MT USA on a Sunday afternoon, or what else.

It is extraordinary that what one would usually classify as young people's music — by that I mean rock and allied kinds of music — is never played and never presented in our National Concert Hall. There is a large range of reasons why that is excused, but I suspect that somewhere deep down is the suspicion that really that would not be appropriate: what would those young people do if we let them into our National Concert Hall? So they are packed off elsewhere. There may well be economic reasons, but I do not believe it is entirely that.

I will try to put a number of figures in perspective. I did a quick sum, but I am wide open to correction on this. I suspect that the cost of keeping that part of our prison population which comes under the general heading of young, in other words under 25 or so or perhaps even younger, would work out at at least £10 million a year, which I would strongly suggest is considerably in excess of what we propose even in future to spend on services for young people.

Since it appears that it will be a long time before I get a chance to talk in this House again about homelessness I propose to devote a substantial part of what I have to say to the problem of homeless young people. I welcome the Minister's reference to it in his remarks last week and to his commitment to meet the problem head on. Perhaps I can address a few comments that might help him in his determination to deal with this problem.

I would like to put on the record of this House some of the facts about youth homelessness. There is the astonishing fact that about 11 per cent of those sleeping rough in Dublin are under the age of 18 years. It is an astonishing and frightening fact. It speaks better than any long lists of statistics for our inadequacy in that area. Large numbers of females are in that under age group. Most of that group are not transitory, or passing. They are actually stationary and therefore a long standing problem which we have failed to deal with. The vast majority of that group are not in receipt of any income from the State; the majority have been convicted of offences; most of those offences are by any standards minor. Many of the older age groups which would presumably have been the young homeless of another era worked on one occasion and therefore many of our young homeless could work if opportunities were presented to them.

On the issue of the young homeless and the problem of work, there is an extraordinary incentive for young people to leave home because of the way our social welfare system operates. If a young person of 17 or 18 years is at home the family income will be used to assess the young person's eligibility for unemployment benefit or assistance. The family income would be used to assess the contribution that he is receiving through bed and board, and the young person can be presented with an assessment of being entitled to £1 or 50p a week when the bus fares to get to the labour exchange to sign on would far exceed the actual value of unemployment assistance. Other people who are far better qualified than I testify to the fact that young people leave home, not in huge numbers because many of them have good homes and many of them presumably are mature and sensible enough to see the consequences of their actions, because they see it as a way of getting an income for themselves.

There are on the other hand in this city what could be described as the transient young homeless who stay out for three or four nights on occasions. The committee made recommendations with regard to them. There are long lists of statistics available about where the homeless come from and what happens to them. The saddest statistic of all is the absence of any provision for them.

I recognise that the Minister makes his promises in good faith, but even if a promise is made in good faith and broken it is still a broken promise irrespective of the genuineness of the commitment at the time. We have waited so long for anything in the nature of an official response to the problem of homelessness that I sincerely hope that when the Minister made his commitment to deal with the problem of the young homeless the commitment was made on the basis of a very clear understanding of their problems.

A lot could be said on the issue of youth homelessness alone, but there are many other issues that need to be addressed about the concerns of young people. I have already said, and it needs to be repeated, that in some way our welfare system operates as a poverty trap for our young people because of this gap between 16 and 18 when they are in limbo. AnCO and HOPE, a voluntary organisation for homeless young people, conducted a survey of youth unemployment in Finglas and discovered that a quarter of young unemployed people were not in receipt of any State assistance.

It is always easy for us to say what we have done about any group, but the only way we can really accept adjudication on whether we have done anything for a particular group is the perception by that group of what is being done for them. There is considerable evidence that a large part of our most vulnerable people do not see themselves as being particularly well catered for or indeed having a place at all in society.

It is regrettable that we now enacted legislation which will enable a 13 year old child to be detained in a Garda station on suspicion. We, in this House, could not even think about making exceptions for young people. When we are put on the spot we still ultimately believe that young people are in some way a little bit different. We are, by and large, terrified of our young people, particularly the young people who are different in their cultural perceptions, in their style of dress from their elders and those whom we respectfully would suggest are their betters.

I sincerely hope that when the Minister leaves this debate the promise he made about dealing with the problem of the young homeless will be a promise that will be fulfilled quickly. I sincerely hope that suggestions made to me that a senior official of one health board has proposed, as a solution to the problem of youth homelessness, that a hostel with slatted floors be opened, so that they could sluice it down effectively every morning before leaving will not be the nature of the official response. That apparently was a real proposal by a senior official, suggesting to me that in terms of educating our officials, we have a long way to go.

There are straws in the wind, however, which suggest that perhaps we will not get as immediate or as positive or as far seeing a response. One of the specific recommendations of the Costello Committee is with regard to the Vagrancy Act. They suggested that the offensive sections of that Act should be repealed. The Select Committee on Crime, Lawlessness and Vandalism considered this problem. Our colleagues in the other House and the Government kicked to touch. On this revolutionary proposal to cease making homelessness a crime, the collective wisdom of Dáil Éireann and of the Minister for Justice was to ask the Law Reform Commission to report on the issue — in a specific report, on a specific issue, on a specifically particularly offensive piece of legislation which effectively makes it a crime to be homeless. The collective wisdom of most of the Members of Dáil Éireann, and I suspect most of the Members of this House, is to kick to touch and wait for the Law Reform Commission to report on that issue.

In case somebody thinks I am only reporting academic matters, I will cite a brief report from the Irish Independent on 12 January 1985, about a boy of 14 years who was charged with assault. It seems he was charged with a serious crime, but stuck on at the tail of the report is the fact that he faced two charges, one of burglary and one of vagrancy. In addition to the charges of assault, somebody slipped in a charge of being a vagrant, in other words, he was charged with this most offensive of all things, wandering abroad without visible means of support. So whatever about the fears people have — I know about the fears people say they have but I suspect they are not the real fears, because many of us are in that category — it would be a good augury of something more than words and goodwill if that particular recommendation in paragraph 13.3.13 of the committee's report were to be implemented immediately. It is a very simple piece of repealing legislation. My own draft Bill is approximately two paragraphs. If the Government wish to do it a different way, it would be most welcome. It would be very simple, it could be done immediately and would remove one particularly offensive piece of legislation.

A much more major piece of legislation that would say something about the real commitment of the Government to our young people would be the enactment of the much promised, much promised, much promised, much promised Children Bill. That is the real representation of our commitment to our young people, whether we are prepared to reform the most anarchistic piece of legislation dating back almost 80 years on which our children's affairs are regulated. That Bill, or Bills, seems to be indefinitely postponed. It would be a great indication if not just one but three Bills were to be published sometime in the immediate future. I conclude by wishing that we will see that most important of all our legislation, real legislation for our children.

Mr. Deenihan

I would point out that the post compulsory schooling age group is in a state of crisis, not only in Ireland but throughout the world. Economic and social changes, coupled with international recession, have meant that the traditional means of transition to adulthood by entry into a career structure in the work force is becoming progressively more difficult. A large number of young people may feel cheated of their expectations and be ill prepared for the changed circumstances in which they find themselves, resulting in problems of alienation, social disaffection and destructive behaviour.

More significantly, the experience suffered by young people can permanently affect their lives as adults, leading to a large and permanent minority whose attachment to a society which has offered them very little is marginal. The issue for youth policy is how to enable the young to engage their energy and intelligence in socially valued and personally beneficial activities which would provide options for them to become confident and socially useful adults. A youth policy is not only necessary to keep young people off the streets or train them for entry into the job market, but to provide them with a means of successful transition to adulthood.

The NYPC was set up in September 1983 and requested to report within 12 months. It submitted a 300 page report within the period. The committee must be complimented on this achievement. It did the job with urgency and skill and was surely one of the few committees to report on target. The Government should be encouraged to respond with equal vigour and speed, which I am sure they will. The report is based on a basic democratic philosophy and vision. It points to the need for more participation by young people in political, economic and social institutions. The aim also implies a commitment to reduce our present social and economic inequalities.

The central recommendation of the NYPC is for a national youth service to be set up for the age group 12 to 21 years. It would be a distinct and independent service which would incorporate all the various elements of youth work including training, employing youth workers, working with the National Youth Council, getting premises and so on. In effect it would be statutory recognition of the youth service. The policy then deals with specific areas such as travellers, homelessness, the disabled and young offenders. The report calls on us all to get away from "gut reaction" politics which, unfortunately, seems to be the trend more than the exception nowadays, and instead to reflect seriously on the problems in our society. It is the only long term way to deal with issues. Just as the report goes into great detail in its various proposals in a serious and responsible way, likewise the response should be serious.

I would refer to the costings of the proposals of the committee. First, many of the things proposed would not cost one penny, especially with regard to participation. Second, much money is being spent on young people, especially in prisons. Seventy per cent of the prison population is under 25 years of age. It costs £450 a week to keep a young person in prison. Prisons have very high failure rates. Many young people return to crime when they are released. Surely it would be better to spend money positively on young people, invest in them and we will have a greater return. If we do not invest now we will still have to spend later.

I would like to refer to the new factory, AMD, which will be set up in Greystones creating 1,100 jobs by 1991. The managing director of the company told a press conference that the main reason his company came to Ireland was because of the educated young workforce, not necessarily the IDA grants. Our young workforce with such very high expertise will have to be a considerable advantage to us in attracting any future industries.

I would like to refer specifically to one area in which I have a particular interest, that is outdoor education, and in particular I would like to refer to Cappanalea outdoor activity centre in Kerry, which offers a wide range of activities to young people. It has provided recreation for underprivileged people. As well as that it has been used by various groups from Northern Ireland over the past number of years. I am glad that reference was made to the centre in the report. The centre is situated about seven miles south west of Killorglin with Caragh Lake to the north and overlooking Cappanalea Lake to the south. It is ideally suited for such an outdoor activity site. The site is surrounded by small peaks of up to 940 feet and is very suitable for mountain climbing, hill walking and other activities such as that. For the past 12 months a temporary youth employment scheme, which was granted by the Department of Labour, has been operating at Cappanalea which allowed the employment of a supervisor who acts as assistant manager, three instructors and a secretary. This scheme is due to end in March. A deputation of people will be meeting the Minister on Friday regarding this. I appeal to him to accommodate the wishes of these people as much as possible.

In relation to the centre I would like to request the Minister for Education to give formal sanction to the Kerry VEC for their work in the development of outdoor education and for the management and operation of Cappanalea outdoor education centre. I would also like to make a special representation to the Minister of State at the Department of Labour for the staffing proposals. I would like if, through the agency of the Department of Education in the office of the Minister of State, Deputy Donal Creed, a precise statement could be given by the Government on their outdoor education policy. I am sure the people of Cappanalea and the outdoor education centres around the country would be only too pleased to co-operate with the Department in formulating such a policy. I would appreciate if the Minister for Education could visit this centre. It has immense possibilities and has a great future if it is properly supported.

The NYPC report should be a working document. Let it not be an agenda for the future but for now. Young people are not the citizens of the future, but the people of today. I am looking forward to the proposals being implemented and put into practice as soon as possible so that the people who participated on the committee and gave so much of their time will now be rewarded in seeing their work come to fruition over the next few years.

Mr. Fallon

I would like to congratulate the committee who obviously worked so hard to compile this important report. It is appropriate that at the start of 1985, which is International Youth Year, we should be discussing this important report. It is agreed that the world will be focussing its attention in much greater detail on youth problems and on youth generally. It is a very excellent report. I found it very interesting, very readable. I must confess that I could have suggested many of the findings in the report from my practical knowledge of youth affairs and indeed my involvement in youth generally.

Many people are trying to give the impression that our youth are interested in social problems only, items like sex and contraception, which is a total myth. The report highlights that their priorities are very much basic and very much on the ground. They are interested in bread and butter issues. They are interested in getting a career for themselves and in setting themselves up for life. The report says the first priority of this well educated youth is to have good health. The second priority is to have a job and the third is the noble, honourable priority of peace in the world. Obviously our youth expressed their concern in this report about the problems of Northern Ireland which have been with us for a long time.

I was particularly interested in the paragraphs which dealt with the family. The report refers to the changing nature of the family as an institution. We all have accepted down the years that the family is the basic social unit of our society and is recognised as such in our Constitution. I am aware, as we all are, of the changes in family life and family styles. We are aware of the weakening of kinship ties which have contributed to the evolution of the nuclear as opposed to the extended family of the past. The report on page 40 states:

A crucial factor central to the changes taking place in the family and indeed in society itself has been the women's liberation movement and the struggle for gender equality which affects not only relationships within the family and the divisions of labour but also the values, attitudes and lifestyles of young people growing up in our society.

You can give me all the social clubs, youth clubs, community halls and community leaders you like but I have always believed that if the mother is at home to meet the boy or girl when they come home from school and talks about the problems of that day, that is more important than all the leadership courses that can be put on for any of these children.

We have very well educated young people now. Obviously they have a greater role to play than ever before. We know our young people are not getting jobs, so they go on to higher education. Education is no load to have at any time. The report admits that education broadens one's outlook and helps for a more enlightened life ahead.

The report outlines that youth want an assurance that much is being done for them in the area of job creation and opportunity. It is their main worry. Many of them refer to the fact that they were very worried about this problem. This is consistent with reports that are available in many other research findings. The very fact that the Government have raided the youth employment levy to the tune of £7¼ million will not do anything for the morale and the confidence of young people. Obviously, the whole area of work experience schemes, AnCO, CERT, Youth Employment Agency and other job training schemes will be affected. We must remember that the 1 per cent levy placed on the PAYE earner was for specific youth employment programmes. The fact that we have almost 73,000 young people out of work indicates the huge problem we have. This particular episode of raiding their kitty as it were will do nothing for the morale and confidence of our young people.

The interest of young people in politics has been referred to previously. We note from the report that 1 per cent of our young people belong to political parties. In England, the figure is somewhat higher. A recent survey in Waterford found that between the ages of 16 and 21 years of age, less than 20 per cent of young people had any interest in local and national priorities. It is no wonder that young people, with regard to their voting patterns, seem to be guided by their parents on this question of political beliefs and political party affiliation. It is a question of, which my colleague, Senator Séamus de Brún would say, "an rud a dhéanann an cat déanann an caitin." Every effort must be made by the political parties to make our youth appreciate the working and the seriousness of politics and political institutions. We all have a role to play in this area.

I hope this report will be implemented. It is a very important one. It is a good document and one I support totally. A youth policy should commend all the resources and energies of Government and the people, both young and old. In particular, youth should play a vital and meaningful role in the problems of youth and youth development. The implementation of the major recommendations should proceed this year, if possible, to highlight to our young people that we are serious about their problems. We must never forget that from the youth of today will develop those who will govern us tomorrow.

Mr. Browne

Tá an-áthas orm go raibh an díospóireacht seo againn sa Seanad. Tá me an-bhuíoch de na Seanadóirí a labhair anseo agus a thaispeáin go raibh suim acu in ógánaigh na hÉireann. Tá mé cinnte go raibh an tAire anseo ag éisteacht agus go mbeidh a fhios aige céard a bhí ar siúl anseo agus go gcuirfidh sé é seo i bhfeidhm nuair a bheidh an plean nua á chur ós ár gcomhair arís. Tá cuid de na Seanadóirí a labhair anseo óg agus cuid eile nach bhfuil ró óg agus tuigeann siad an cheist atá á plé againn. Tá súil agam go mbeidh toradh an-mhaith ar an díospóireacht seo.

In replying to this motion on youth, we can take heart from the fact that we have a Government led by a Taoiseach who, obviously has a great interest in youth when he appointed our very youthful Minister of State with responsibility for youth, Deputy Birmingham. He has been complimented by the other Senators. He has youth on his side and has common sense as well. This is a great help to running a department of any Government. I have the utmost confidence that he will produce a youth policy which will be practical and will be of benefit to young people.

In his speech he mentioned the fact that the youth policy will have to be supported by the social partners. He mentioned teachers, politicians, and the churches. I would agree that we cannot have any isolation. We want everybody pulling together. One of the Senators mentioned that we want all party agreement on it. It is an area where we cannot have political point scoring. We cannot have one particular party thinking that they have all the answers to youth while the other party criticise and find fault with everything that is done. We need to encourage youth. We will encourage them by not having sniping action going on as if it was of some benefit.

Senator Hillery in his contribution earlier on talked about co-ordination of the many youth organisations that exist throughout the country. This is a very valid point. While it is very important that we have youth organisations of many types in many places we must ensure that we do not have them duplicating and crossing roles and maybe getting money that could be directed to a better way if there was co-ordination.

I would like to compliment the very many youth organisations, many of which are run by people who are giving their time free and leave their families to spend hours in youth clubs, on football and hurling fields, in athletics and so on. Money could not pay these people. The Government would be foolish to try to take over any of these organisations. They can certainly help them by grants. One cannot replace the commitment given by people who are volunteering their time because they have a genuine interest in what they are doing.

Senator Hillery also emphasised the fact that self-reliance was a very important factor in youth organisations. This is just what I have been talking about. One cannot pay people to do things. They stand on their own two feet because they have an interest. He was worried about what youth really is when it is under 25 years of age for the YEA, our new Age of Majority Bill make it 18 years and this report make it 12 to 21 years. This is something that can be tackled. Definitions may not be as important as they appear to be.

Senator McGonigle in his usual eloquent and to the point speech was worried that the timetable would not be just let drag on. I have no worries about his plea that a youth policy would be implemented within this year, which is International Youth Year, because I am sure the Minister will be back to us within a few months.

Senator Lanigan raised one particular point, which surprised me, when he talked about the survey that was done in the diocese of Ossory where it was found that only 4 per cent of the young people felt that they were getting anything out of religion or going to Mass. This should be a cause for concern in a country we like to think is very Christian, very Catholic and in which people go to church. If only 4 per cent of young people feel that they are getting anything out of their religion, there is something seriously wrong. I am quite sure that the survey carried out in the diocese of Ossory was done properly. It is not easy in this day of commercialism to make people feel that abstract things like religion are important. However, it would never be good for the nation if religion disappeared out of our lives, especially so for young people who need to have something worth relying on.

Senator Ulick Burke in his contribution was worried about the absence of career guidance teachers in some secondary schools. It is very important that young people are given proper advice. Very often people take on the wrong course. They do their intermediate certificate and often have to decide before the results come out what subjects they will do for the leaving certificate. This is very difficult for a young child. Indeed, it is difficult for parents to sit down and decide on what subjects a child should do for the leaving certificate when the intermediate certificate results are not yet to hand. Even when these results are out it can be difficult but at least the child involved knows exactly what his or her strong and weak points are. It is very important that we have career guidance teachers to advise the people who have to make a decision which will affect them for the rest of their lives. All these things are very important. While it is costly to provide career guidance teachers for every school because some schools are small it is a plea which I endorse, that when the Minister for Education gets the money she will do her best to provide these guidance teachers.

Senator Honan had her customary attack on the Government. She finds that the Government cause a lot of problems. There are Governments which in the past should have been dealing with youth also. Perhaps they should have set up the scene. I said earlier there is no point in sniping about youth policies so I shall not continue to snipe. I listened to the Senator very keenly when she spoke about mentally handicapped children. From personal experience, I know of the amount of work she has done all her life in helping the mentally handicapped. Her record is there to be seen, I should like to compliment her once again on what she has been doing in this area. I take particular note of what she said. I am sure the Senator was happy to know, as I was, that in the budget the anomaly which I mentioned in my statement to the House on the last sitting day has been corrected. I said at the time that I hoped it would be rectified, I should like to compliment the Government for doing so. I refer to the anomaly that mentally retarded children who continued schooling from the age of 16 years were being deprived of the allowance. They were getting it if they dropped off school at 16 years. Nobody more than the mentally handicapped deserve to be supported in continuing their education.

Senator Ferris spoke about the lack of civic knowledge that young people display when they are being interviewed. It came as a surprise to me that in this day and age, when civics is being taught in schools, that this should be so. I found it very easy in my own classroom, before I became officially involved in politics, to go over the PR system and discuss all forms of politics with the class. Nowadays I find that if I mention one political party I automatically have to mention the other two in case there is any reaction. When one is in politics it is not so easy to discuss politics in a classroom.

It is very important that at secondary school level the young people should know what is going on in politics. The fact, as other Senators have stated, that the Minister is prepared to appoint officers to advise the political parties on how to interest young people is a major step. If young people are let ramble all over the place and be impressed by wild statements and ideas which are not very important, they may go astray. We live in a democracy and we must support the democratic parties.

Senator Ferris said that people are prepared to pay a 1 per cent levy to support young people. The Senator is right in talking about the willingness of people to pay, if it will help young people to get employment. I endorse his remarks about the budget putting money where it counts in the sport and culture sectors, providing money for the youth orchestra and for the Olympics in the year before the games take place, as it is easy for a Government to get publicity by providing money in the year of the Olympics. It is a very good idea to provide money for young people who will carry the flag for us at the Olympics and whom we will cheer madly at that time. There is foresight shown by the Government in providing this money to help in advance, and I am also glad that culture is getting its place as well.

Senator Brendan Ryan, who has vast experience in the realms of youth and homeless people, and knows exactly what it is all about, made the case that the social welfare system often causes problems for young people and encourages them to leave home. This is something which I hope he will develop further and it is something which is difficult for any Minister to deal with. Young people are apt to make decisions that are forced on them for lack of money. He outlined the case that by staying at home they may not get any social welfare. This is something which should be tackled. I hope the Minister will be in a position to deal with it.

The whole question of disadvantaged youth and the fact that 11 per cent of the youth of Dublin sleeping on the streets are under the age of 18 years is a serious matter. That percentage of under 18s means that those people are getting no start in life. It is very difficult for them to make progress later on. While I have often differed with Senator Brendan Ryan, I should like to compliment him on the work he is doing for young people.

I should like to thank the Senators who contributed to this debate and to compliment all the people who give so much of their time and energy in helping young people. There are many people who give their time, such as teachers, the Garda Síochána and people who are not off work early in the evenings who still come out and help. These people should be appreciated because as I have stated before, many people will give you money if you are collecting for something but they will not give their time. The people who give their time and give it free deserve all our thanks. I should like to compliment the young people, many of them in colleges, who have rag weeks for charity. I know one college at the moment where a small group have raised £2,000 for charity. We often criticise the students for what they do during these rag weeks, but they certainly bring in a lot of money. They are genuine when it comes to the crunch.

I appeal for an all-party consensus on youth policy and that we would work together as there is a difficult task before us. It is not easy to provide jobs. I have the utmost confidence in the Minister and in the Government, that they will come up with a youth policy that will be of benefit to our youth.

Question put and agreed to.