Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 21 Jan 1987

Vol. 115 No. 14

Business of Seanad.

Professor Dooge

For the first time since November 1983 it is incumbent on me to move that this House adjourns sine die. Perhaps I would be allowed to comment on that fact. Such has been the regularity of our meetings, such has been the systematic way in which the Seanad has gone about its business, that it is well over three years since we abandoned the long-established Seanad habit of adjourning most of the time sine die.

I want to thank Senators for their co-operation in managing to get this House working in a regular fashion in this way. I want to thank the Cathaoirleach, I want to thank our Seanad staff and I want to thank all the Members of the House, but particularly I want to thank those who have been concerned. Of course, I want to thank as well as the Cathaoirleach the Leas-Chathaoirleach and the temporary chairmen. I would like also to mention in particular the leaders of the groups and the Whips who have co-operated with me in making my task that much more easy.

To those Members of the Seanad who feel they would be more at home in another place, I wish them well in their endeavours. To those Members of the Seanad who will be seeking re-election here, I wish them all the best of luck in their endeavours. To those who will not be seeking re-election, I join with them in a chorus of saying goodbye to Seanad Éireann. It has been a worthwhile experience to have been a Member of this House. It has had its frustrations from time to time but one can look back and say, on the whole it has been worth it, it has been something worthy of doing and no matter what may be said outside these walls this is a worthy House which makes a real contribution to the welfare of our nation.

Mrs. Robinson

I should like to pay a tribute to the Leader of the House who is spending his last day in the Seanad and, rather typically, spending a good deal of the time of that day here in the Chamber. I have had the privilege of being a Member of this House since August 1969. Therefore I have had experience of a number of Leaders of the House from both sides at various times. I think I can say fairly that Senator Dooge has been the Leader of the House who has provided the greatest leadership. I would like to briefly indicate what for me that leadership has consisted of.

First of all, his commitment to the Seanad; that is evident in everything he says and has been evident in a number of contributions, including this afternoon, when he made his views explicitly clear. He understands the importance of having a separate examination of legislation, a separate input into debates on issues and the very significant contribution which the Seanad can make, as it is constituted, under the Constitution. That leadership has been inspirational. It is one of the reasons, if not the very fundamental reason, that this Seanad has worked harder and worked better than a number of other Seanaid in tackling various problems.

His commitment to the Seanad has been matched by a willingness to allow Private Members' Business to flower and to have full expression.

Professor Dooge

——not always to bear fruit.

Mrs. Robinson

Unfortunately not always bearing fruit. At times this must have been at a relatively high cost when there was a certain pile-up of Government measures that Ministers were seeking or whatever. He scrupulously provided Private Members' time. He encouraged an orderly method of so doing and, apart from Private Members' time, in a narrow sense, Senator Dooge also ensured that this House debated the reports of the various committees established by the Oireachtas and set in motion what I hope will be continued in the future — a role for the Seanad in debating the reports of the various joint committees. That is another significant contribution he made.

His personal involvement in terms of the contributions that he made as a Senator was very striking over the years and particulary so as Leader of the House because he brought to any debate not alone his own intelligence but also a very broad range of experience and of expertise, his own academic expertise, his wide knowledge of world affairs, his experience more recently as Minister for Foreign Affairs. Certainly I found that he was never totally predictable because he really did address the issue. He really did, at times, come out with quite unusual contributions, not the party line but in fact his view of things. That was very welcome.

Senator Dooge in my experience, as a Leader of the House, never played dirty. He never tricked at a time when that might have been done. That is very significant and I can think of a recent example: the debate on the Extradition Bill could have concluded before Christmas because Senators were not contributing. Senator Catherine McGuinness and myself were in fact coming up the stairs to contribute. I had checked a few minutes beforehand and went down to get some papers. The debate could have folded; the Minister could have been called in; politically that would have been very welcome, to close the Second Stage debate on the Extradition Bill. I only recall that example as one of many examples of somebody who did not, as I say, play dirty in the sense of foreclosing on a debate, because he was interested in the role this House played and because he wanted to ensure that Members of the House would have a full opportunity.

The last thing which I certainly will recall as being a major part of the contribution of Senator Dooge was his humour and his manner in relation to individual Senators. He was concerned to ensure that the House operated to the best advantage and that Senators were encouraged in that. Therefore, even in difficult times, he never lost his sense of humour, he never lost his ability to relate to people. We will miss him very much, both as Leader of the House and as a longstanding and very distinguished Member. I am delighted to have had the opportunity to pay tribute to him.

Séamus de Brún

Ba mhaith liomsa focal gairid a rá ar son an pháirtí a bhfuil baint agam leis san Teach seo le beagnach deich mbliana. On behalf of this side of the House, that is on behalf of the party to which I belong, Fianna Fáil, I want to say very briefly that I am glad to have had the experience of being a Member of this House for almost ten years now. I came here initially on the appointment of the then Taoiseach, Mr. Jack Lynch. I have been here since, apart from the short spell of seven or eight months on one occasion on which I was narrowly defeated. I enjoyed my experience for the length of time that I have been here. It was a great, very worth-while experience when, at the end of a career in my profession, I took up a career of another kind as it were; that is not to say that I have not had association with politics for a very long time. But that is all in the past now.

A Chathaoirligh, I want to thank you very sincerely for your gentlemanly behaviour in the Cathaoir of Seanad Éireann during the time that I have been here. Your conduct has been not only professional but courteous and gentlemanly. More than that I could not say about anyone. I want to associate my remarks in that regard with my colleague, the Leas-Chathaoirleach, Senator Tras Honan, who has officiated very conscientiously and capably in the Cathaoir during her time of office also.

Next I want very sincerely to thank the Leader of this House, Senator Dooge. What can I say about Senator Dooge that has not been said already by Senator Robinson? I want to say about Senator Dooge that he has been a gentleman as Leader of this Seanad during my time and I am sure during all of this time in the Seanad. He has been always nonpolitical in the best sense of the word and I mean that sincerely. He was honest about the Order Paper as to what was to be on it or was not to be on it. We were often very anxious as to what might be on it. We could always depend on Senator Dooge. He treated us fairly, honestly and in a gentlemanly fashion.

I want to thank everyone else, all of the officials and all the people with whom I have had association during my time here. I also had the privilege — and I regarded it as such — of having been temporary Chairman. I sat in that Chair on a number of occasions. I had no difficult time there. I got over my problems as they arose easily enough. I did enjoy the experience here during my term of office, I want to thank all my colleagues and to say that never have I had a cross word or any serious differences with them. I appreciate that very much.

Finally, I want to join with the Leader of the House in wishing well to all those who are preparing, concerned and ambitious to be back in this House again and also those people hoping to be returned to the other House. I am not in either category. Like Senator Dooge, ní bheidh mé ar ais agus ní bheidh mé ag iarraidh teacht ar ais. I shall not be back nor shall I be endeavouring to be back. I wish everyone connected with Seanad Éireann the very best in the future, whether that be here or outside. Slán, a Chathaoirligh, and thank you for your gentlemanliness and thanks, too, to Senator Dooge.

Mr. B. Ryan

Beidh mé an-ghearr ach tá cúpla rudaí gur cóir domsa a rá i dtús báire. I probably have a unique record that I should not be boasting about. I think I am the only Member of this House who was suspended in the present session.

An Cathaoirleach

I was thinking of the same thing.

Mr. B. Ryan

I want to say to you and to the Leader that you were well within your rights and extremely patient at the moment when you finally took exception to what I was doing. I will never forget the Leader's proposal with great regret. I know he probably regretted it far more than I did. I do not know much about what the Seanad was like many years ago, I am a relative neophyte in the House, five years is a very short period. I know things about this House now that I did not know five years ago. I remember saying when I was elected first with a flurry of publicity that I thought it was a good talking shop and a platform. It may be all those things but it is also a place where things get done, where legislation is talked about seriously, where legislation is amended seriously, where Ministers respond seriously to serious discussion. I say that not as any sort of eulogy for anybody in this House but on the basis of five years of discussion. I want to compliment the present Leader and various members of the present Government. I am not saying this by way of comparison but I did not feel that I was being treated lightly with the occasional spectacular exception that I am perfectly capable of publicising as the Leader well recalls.

I do not want this House to be decried or made little of. This House worked very hard, worked intelligently and did not play politics with serious issues. The Leader contributed enormously to that, all the things that have been said about him are true. He often took criticism that many another person would have taken offence at, he took them in the spirit in which they were intended and his good humour was the quality that more than anything else made this House such a pleasant place to work in for the past four years. The Cathaoirleach's good humour too, contributed enormously to this House because it is a quality that I will eternally associate with you. It was the sort of grin that came over your face whenever any Member of this House was quite clearly exceeding Standing Orders and quite clearly knew he was exceeding Standing Orders and it was equally clear that you knew he was exceeding Standing Orders. You had a capacity on occasions to do that and to keep us all within reasonable limits of civilisation. In the process you developed a very effective way of running this House. I would like to pay tribute to you and to wish you well in your retirement. I wish Senator Dooge well in his retirement also. I have a certain personal interest in his retirement, it leaves the space a little bit more plentiful and clear in my own constituency but I regret his departure. I have heard all Senator Dooge's qualities listed here before but I want to make one small chauvinistic remark in conclusion, and that is, that I would never expect less from an engineer than I got from Jim Dooge.

Mr. McMahon

On behalf of the Fine Gael Party I would like to be associated with all the remarks that have been passed regarding yourself, the Leader and others. It has been a wonderful experience for me to have served in this House. I am one of those who can honestly say having served in both Houses, that I found in Seanad Éireann a far higher standard of debate. I do not want to be dragged into any argument or discussion about that. Here also I found the greatest of courtesy at all times among the Members irrespective of their feelings, political or otherwise, about any measure that might be going through. There was the greatest of co-operation notwithstanding of course that Fianna Fáil did their best at all times to match us or outnumber us when it would come to division time. That was their duty and they did not succeed at any stage though they were quite close on a number of occasions during our years here.

I would like to pay tribute to the Leas-Chathaoirleach also who was kept quite busy in the Chair, who was as courteous as yourself and carried out her duties as Leas-Chathaoirleach in the most efficient manner. I am disappointed that the Leader of the House would not consider another term; how that might be arranged I do not know. Strange things happen in our day and strange things happen in politics. There are strange ways that people come and go. The Leader will probably rank as one of the greatest leaders of this House. All of the tributes paid to him are well deserved. He was in regular attendance despite a very busy schedule in other places and he was always prepared to listen to a point of view contrary to his own whether it came from the other side or his side of the House. I think we all got a fair hearing under his leadership.

I would like to play tribute also to the Whips and to the Fianna Fáil Party who, despite their opposition to us were always prepared to sit down and discuss matters. The business of the House was conducted in a gentlemanly way. I hope that atmosphere will continue in this House. I have started on the road to return to the Dáil. A month from today I will know my fate in that regard. Regardless of this day month whether I ever return to the Oireachtas I must say that my time here has been very pleasant. I was in the Dáil from 1970 until 1982 and I have been in this House since 1983. It has been the makings of a great life for me. I met people whom I would not have met had I not been involved in politics. Though many people say we are crazy to be involved in politics I would have not been without this experience, an experience that has been immense. Though I was very disappointed when I was rejected by the electorate for membership of the other House, looking back on it, it was a blessing in disguise because my service in this House has been a most wonderful experience.

I would like to pay tribute also to the the Ministers and Ministers of State who have come here and who as Senator de Brún has said have always treated the business of the Seanad seriously despite complaints that they were not always available when we would have liked to have them but again, they were busy in other places. When they did come here we got a full hearing from them. We differed greatly with many of the measures they were putting through but they seriously considered our opinions and accordingly many measures were amended. I join in the expression of good wishes to the Leader, to those going to other places and to those who will return. I hope that those who are retiring will still have an interest in the activities of this House.

Mrs. McGuinness

I join in the tributes that have been paid to all these people others have spoken about. In an inadvertent moment at the beginning of this sitting, I allowed myself to become the member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges on behalf of the Independent group, and as such I have been representing an increasingly large, disparate and unruly family of people. But by doing that I have come to appreciate the sterling qualities, in perhaps a slightly different way from what one appreciates in the House, of both the Cathaoirleach and the Leader of the House. I really would like, from the point of view of the Independent group, to say how pleased I am at the consideration that was given to the time that should be given to Independents, to the views that Independents held, and to allowing Independents room to move Private Members' motions or Private Members' Bills. Indeed, some people might say that we took up far too much of the time of the House with our contributions. But I really do want, from that point of view, to express our appreciation of what the Cathaoirleach and the Leader of the House have done for us. Certainly, the Cathaoirleach has been exceptional, and I and others have greatly benefited from your sense of humour and from your easy way of dealing with difficult situations so as to diffuse bad temper and to make sure that the business of the House was dealt with in a proper manner.

I am sure the Cathaoirleach will also forgive me if I pay a special tribute to the Leas-Chathaoirleach, a woman of extremely sterling character who was well able to keep the House in order when she wanted to, and would not allow any of us to misbehave ourselves. But at the same time it was with extreme good humour, and she knew exactly who everybody was, what everybody was and what they were up to.

I would also like to mention in particular the Clerk of the Seanad and the different assistant clerks that we had during the time. Independants in particular are very dependent on the help of the staff of the House because they have not got a party behind them: they have not got Government resources behind them. When it comes to drafting motions, drafting amendments, drafting Bills and so on, they are very dependent on the work of the staff of the House and, in particular, the Clerk and his various assistants. I would like to thank them very much indeed. Mr. Tobin and I have known each other over many years, at different times and in different places, but I would like to thank him and his assistants for their help.

I should also like to mention the courtesy, help and attention of the ushers of the Houses and how well they have looked after us in our work in the Seanad.

I would finally like to say that a Seanad without Senators Dooge and de Brún will be a much lessened Seanad. Even if we do return here we will miss them all greatly.

An Cathaoirleach

I would like to add my voice to the tribute that has been paid to Senator Dooge, the Leader of the House. Naturally, in my position, I was very close to him. He was very helpful and, as Senator Robinson said, he was very honest; he never tried to slip anything quick across anybody but tried to accommodate everybody. He would even discuss with the other Whips what he intended to do the following week. He was more than helpful if they demanded something. I am roughly ten years in the House, and I do not think there has been any leader as accommodating. I was leader myself for a short time and I certainly could not accommodate people as Senator Dooge did, and I thank him very much for that.

I would also like to thank Senator Honan and, particularly, the temporary chairmen, who are here in the House now. During the period when I was ill they were particularly helpful in carrying on the business of the House and I thank them very much for what they did for me then.

In regard to all the Members of the House, I got the best of co-operation from everyone except on the occasion when I had to suspend Senator Brendan Ryan. I do not think he ever held it against me but took it as fair enough. It was the only incident we had in the four-year period. I certainly enjoyed it and I thank the Members very much for cooperating with me. I hope I was as helpful to them as they were to me.

I thank the staff, particularly Mr. Jack Tobin who was axious to help everybody. When a motion came in, Mr. Tobin might have one view about it and I might have another view and other people might have other views but, between us we would argue it out and come up with a decision, and if we were not being favourable we usually sent for the persons who had put down the motion to see if they could make some change so that we could accommodate them. Mr. Tobin was more than helpful in that respect, and I have no doubt that all the Members appreciate that.

I have no doubt that Miss Lane will be a very good successor to Mr. Kieran Coughlan. I would like to pay tribute to Miss Briody in the office who helped and accommodated everybody. There was only a staff of three and she was more than helpful.

Like Senators Dooge and de Brún, I wish those who will be candidates in the forthcoming election luck. I also wish luck to those who are anxious to get back into the House.