Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 30 Sep 1987

Vol. 117 No. 1

National Primary and Secondary Roads: Motion.

Mr. McGowan

I move:

That Seanad Éireann expresses the need to enforce the law to control all traffic using our National Primary Roads and National Secondary Roads to ensure that (a) all vehicles are roadworthy; (b) vehicles are not overloaded; (c) drivers observe the statutory speed limits and parking by-laws.

First, I appreciate having an opportunity to raise this matter here. A number of colleagues asked me if I wanted to make life more difficult for the motoring public. My answer is very simple. That is not the intention in bringing this motion before the Seanad; on the contrary. Our traffic laws are a bit out of date and are in need of looking at. Hopefully, I shall make a contribution here which will help to convince the Minister for the Environment and those involved with him in Cabinet that this motion is timely. Our road traffic laws are outdated and it is time we had a serious look at them.

I believe there are a large number of unroadworthy vehicles on the road and that those vehicles are overloaded and totally uncontrolled. I say this as a driver with experience who is on the road seven days a week. I drive through fairly difficult terrain from Donegal to Dublin and I meet every kind of traffic on the road. Some of it gives me concern and it is about time that we took a very hard look at the whole traffic code.

It is time that we looked at the size of vehicle, the type of driver and the speed at which heavy vehicles are being driven. It is not uncommon on the roads between here and Northern Ireland to meet very heavy juggernaut vehicles and to be passed out, even when travelling at 60 miles an hour, by those very heavy vehicles, certainly, in my opinion, driving very dangerously. This cannot be allowed to continue. Speeding in heavy vehicles has caused many deaths. I do not know how you can console families where the bread-winner, or child, or some member is wiped out of existence by reckless, or careless, or dangerous driving. I do not know the explanation for it. We in public life have a responsibility to express our opinions and to influence, as far as possible, the implementation of law and in this case I would say we are long overdue in doing that. One of the things that comes to mind is that recently there were eight road deaths in five days in Northern Ireland. We all express a lot of concern and have a lot to say on the many unfortunate deaths that the troubles in Northern Ireland have caused but the slaughter on the roads seems to be taken for granted and goes practically unnoticed. That cannot be allowed to continue.

One of my principal concerns is the number of vehicles, mostly from Northern Ireland, which enter this country very heavily laden and which are driven by young drivers. They are causing serious problems in this part of Ireland and the authorities can do very little about it. I have seen those in charge of very heavy vehicles on the road, 40 tonners, playing with them like dinky toys. They pass out all traffic and have no regard for white and unbroken lines or speed limits in towns. That cannot be allowed to continue. That is my experience in this area and it influenced me to bring this motion before the Seanad.

We have no real awareness of or concern for the whole spectrum of traffic laws. If one drives from here to Stillorgan or on any main throughfare one will find that vehicles will pass just as easily on the left-hand side as they do on the righthand side. There is no lane discipline and little concern is shown for other vehicles, even to the extent of not even giving a signal. The Minister probably drives a lot more than I do and I am sure he is aware of how much our traffic laws have deteriorated. It should be a very serious offence for someone to use a vehicle over a very long period without a speedometer and without having the vehicle registered. It should also be a very serious offence to then sell that same vehicle as an unregistered vehicle or as a new vehicle to somebody who does not have technical knowledge. Somebody will buy the vehicle as a new vehicle with no mileage on it when in fact it may already have covered 50,000 miles over a two to three year period. That is one aspect of vehicle and traffic law which has to be looked at.

It should be a criminal offence to buy a vehicle that had been involved in a crash or written off by an insurance company and then to reinstate and sell that vehicle without the new owner realising that the vehicle had, in fact, been written off on some previous occasion. That is a very serious problem and one that not only endangers the life of the motorist but also the lives of others. It is a problem which needs to be looked at, it should be a matter of serious concern. If you look at any newspaper you will see crashed vehicles for sale. These are bought up, reinstated and put back on the road as new vehicles. It is a problem that has got to and which I hope will be looked at. Positive and effective action is long overdue in this area.

It should be a serious offence to overload a vehicle and here again I am talking about commercial vehicles. It should be a serious offence to overload a vehicle either with plant machinery or with any dangerous substance. A danger is automatically created for the public and for the general road user if this is allowed to happen and at present this is about the only country in Europe that allows this to happen. This problem was forcefully brought to my attention by the many commercial vehicle users in my county who take fish to Europe. The driver of any vehicle from this country who passes through a UK or European port is liable to have his vehicle and load checked. If, in fact, his load is found to be overweight he will not be allowed to move the vehicle one yard until he gets a relief vehicle to take part of the load. To my knowledge, many exporters have been pulled in and were not allowed to go to the nearest garage. They had to stay on the spot until a relief vehicle arrived and removed part of the load. Very strict laws in regard to overloading vehicles exist in most European countries and I do not think that the same laws are applied here. It is an unfair disadvantage for our truck users here as any of them on the European run tell you. They will tell you that it is something about which they need to be aware as there is a very costly fine and it is a very costly experience, if they are pulled in and their load is found to be overweight.

All secondhand vehicles imported into this country, and here I am mainly talking about commercial vehicles, should have to undergo a mechanical test before they are allowed onto the road. My information is reasonably accurate. I can say here without any fear of contradiction that I can go abroad, buy a commercial vehicle, import it and then go to the local tax office to get a licence for a period of one month. I can put on the road a vehicle that has come off a scrap heap in England without the need for any log and without any restriction. I think that is totally wrong. All too often the vehicle is bought cheaply and it is not roadworthy in the first instance because it has failed the MOT test in England or it would have cost too much money to put it through the test, therefore, it was put up for auction.

The vehicle may look reasonably good but it may have been run into the ground by a trucking company or commercial operation in England. If one goes to a local tax office and taxes that vehicle for a month even though it is in a non-roadworthy state it is let onto our roads. That is a serious problem which should not be allowed to continue. I ask the Minister to take a serious look at it and, if it is within his power, the law should be amended to prevent that sort of thing happening. It is another source of serious concern for road users.

The law should be enforced when vehicles which deliver food are found to be dirty. There have to be standards for vehicles which deliver food such as bread, meat, etc. I am not looking for laws to persecute those who are in business and to make life more difficult for them, but the trade and those involved in it can only benefit if there are standards which are easy to observe. It costs very little to keep a vehicle clean. In other countries vehicles are kept well; they are washed and cleaned. I would like to see that kind of interest taken in vehicles here.

We do not have the best roads in Europe and I do not know why we should have the most relaxed traffic laws in Europe. I venture to say that there are stricter controls in Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan and in the other Border counties than there are in the rest of the country. One is about ten times more likely to have a vehicle checked and looked at in any of the Border counties because of the number of gardaí on the ground and the large number of vehicle checkpoints. There are not the same number of checkpoints in the rest of the country. The people who live in Border areas are accustomed to checkpoints. It is very important that there is uniformity in the law and that it is implemented in all areas and not just in Border counties.

The overall situation with regard to vehicle control has got to be looked at. We are now very much Europeans and we should have no simple and lax laws about vehicle control. The safety of our people is important. Unfortunately many people from outside realise that our laws are a bit lax. For instance, in Northern Ireland one cannot drive a vehicle that is over-laden or is in a bad condition. Some firms in Northern Ireland who send goods to the Republic send them on a Saturday when it is likely that their own traffic inspectors are not operating. An overloaded lorry or a lorry that is not roadworthy can deliver goods into the Republic on a Saturday. I am very concerned about this. On my way back to Donegal from the Seanad I was overtaken by a very heavy vehicle at high speed. I went to a barracks and I reported the incident. The garda in charge took me very seriously and said he would have to do something about it but another garda reminded him that he could not do anything about it because he could not get a district justice. Effectively to charge somebody from outside the State he would have to bring him before a court and have a district justice on the spot. There was no district justice available and even though the garda accepted that the driver of the vehicle was driving at a high speed and in a dangerous fashion and was prepared to arrest the man, he could do nothing about it because there was no judge to try him. That cannot be allowed to continue.

We must take some positive action because the general public are at unnecessary risk. It is unfair to the vehicle users who comply with the law, who buy good vehicles, who are forced to do a test and keep their vehicles roadworthy and drive in a manner that respects the law and the safety of the general public. It is unfair to them to let people in from outside the State who know well that there is no law to prevent them from doing what they like. They can drive any size of vehicle at any speed and with any load and they cannot be charged or brought to justice without having a district justice ready to charge them on the spot. The gardaí know this and they know that their task is nearly impossible.

I am glad I had the opportunity to put down this motion and I am glad the Minister came in to listen to the debate. Even if I have not put the case as eloquently as it could be put I have expressed my views honestly on an area about which I am very concerned. I am certain the Minister has views and experiences which are like mine. I hope that ultimately some good, positive action will be taken and that the law will be implemented as a result of this motion.

Mr. M. O'Toole

I wish to second the motion and reserve the right to speak at a later date.

Acting Chairman (Mr. R. Kiely)

Amendment No. 2 may be discussed with Amendment No. 1.

Mr. J. O'Toole

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete the words "National Primary Roads and National Secondary Roads" and substitute "roads".

I agree completely with Senator McGowan and I compliment him on what he said. I had intended to speak at length on the problem of the importation of non-roadworthy vehicles from the UK into the Republic and I think he has covered that more than adequately. I concur with everything he said in that area because it is a scandal. I want to make one minor suggestion in that area which the Minister might consider taking on board. If cars are to be imported from the UK into the Republic there should at least be a requirement that they had passed the MOT test in Britain before they were accepted as suitable cars to be put on Irish roads. I served for a long number of years on the Dublin County Council Road Safety Committee so it is an area to which I am well committed and have been involved in for a long number of years.

It is fine and well to talk about the national primary and secondary roads but the Minister and I as teachers would be concerned about the thousands of young people on their way to school — and who are still going to school — not just on the national primary and secondary roads but also on the boreens and lanes all over Ireland no matter what condition they are in. It is important that the same law applies to those roads as well.

That brings me to a point that is worrying me. I do not want to discuss Government cutbacks as I know people are sick and tired of hearing about them but much as I regret it I have to refer to them in this instance. The best way to make the point is to pick an example and prove how it works. For the past number of years in many counties the county councils have operated a road safety programme in conjunction with the primary schools. There is one successful example of this in the County Dublin area where thousands of pupils in the most junior classes in school worked on a programme which was devised by the county council in consultation with practising teachers. The county council after piloting and assessing programmes in different schools around the county finally came to a programme that they decided to implement in the schools.

This programme has been operating for the past three or four years in the schools. It has been supported by the county council and by the road safety section of the county council over that period of time. It involved teachers from different schools around the county giving up their time to do a number of brief in-service courses on the application of this road safety programme and it has been a highly effective programme. Part of the credit for this must come from the schools' programmes. We have seen a marked reduction in the incidence of fatal and non-fatal accidents on Irish roads over the past number of years. To give an instance of that, the incidence of fatal accidents fell from a figure of 186 in 1983 to 151 fatal accidents in 1984 and to 129 fatal accidents in 1985. The figures for 1986 have not been published but fortunately I got them. The figures for 1986 show a further reduction to 104. This is something everybody involved in the programme should be proud of. Teachers and schools had a major input to make in that.

The programmes put forward by the different county councils and by the national road safety campaign also have had a major input in this. In the Dublin area the figures show a reduction from 94 fatal accidents in 1984, 92 fatal accidents in 1985, to 81 fatal accidents in 1986. The improvements in the figures must be put down to something. I am sure the Minister will agree that if you ensure that young people are responsible and understand the dangers of road travel when they become older road users, whether they be drivers or otherwise, they will also become more responsible. They will have a sense of responsibility towards fellow road users which is what Senator McGowan talked about in a number of examples he gave about the lack of consideration of one road user for another. This must be started at a very early age.

The county councils, and Dublin County Council in this instance, decided to cut back on that programme. They say we must stop that programme for seven months and we will start it off again sometime next year. It is all very well to do the audit on that and say it has saved us X number of pounds but I would put it to the Minister that this type of cutback may save money but it costs lives. Whether by earmarking of allocations or whatever, there should be an insistence that there is responsibility on the State to see to it that this situation does not continue. I ask the Minister to act on that issue as I know his sympathy would be with that area.

If we look at the area of drink related accidents, it is very difficult to come up with figures, but it is an accepted fact that the highest incidence of such accidents that take place over a certain period of hours around pub closing time would relate to driving while drunk. In 1985 there were 10,000 breath tests carried out by the Garda. Figures tell me that this was reduced to 8,000 last year. I think that is scandalous. It is scandalous because we have just reached the point of responsibility as a nation where it is no longer tolerated or tolerable to take a risk with drinking and driving. More and more people have learned that they should pay for a taxi or make arrangements that some person will not drink and be responsible for getting the party home. One of the reasons for that, apart from the sense of responsibility that people feel to others, is that it concentrates the mind wonderfully, as the Minister will be aware, that they might have to blow into a bag on the way home and this helps them along the way to make that decision. That kind of cutback hits us in a very definite and negative way. In those two areas cutbacks save money but they cost lives. I ask the Minister to move on those two areas. I do not want to labour the point any further.

I want to clarify one point. The figures I gave earlier were not the total number of accidents for the year. They were figures for parts of the country. They indicate the reduction that took place over a period of years. While we may continue with that reduction and continue to improve what used to be a terrible record in international terms of road accidents, I do not know whether it is good or bad to be able to say that there are other countries which are much worse than us. It should be noted that even though there are very strict laws in the Six Counties they have a much worse record of accidents per thousand than we have in the Republic. I refer to that point not in any denigratory sense but to say that legislation alone does not solve or ease the problem. It is legislation with education, a point that I am sure the Minister will support. I ask the Minister to look at that in the broadest possible way to ensure that all groups, including local authorities, take this matter on board.

Mr. B. Ryan

I will be extremely brief in deference both to the Leader of the House and to my colleagues. I wish to second Senator J. O'Toole's amendment and to address myself to my own amendment. I add my voice to what Senator O'Toole has said and what is the view of many Members of this House that in tightening up the law and regulations in respect of the Road Traffic Act we have to do two things. We have to change our own attitudes and enforce what is there. We have to change our own attitudes by looking at the way we advertise so many events and functions around the country with the bar extension emblazoned heavily in the advertising. I say this as one who is neither anti-drink or poorly disposed towards it. I do not think campaigns about drinking and driving are effectively carried out by people who do not drink themselves. It behoves those of us who drink to advocate a severe collective view by our society on those who behave in that most irresponsible fashion of consuming alcohol and driving at the same time.

Senator O'Toole discussed some of these issues. There may well be a certain element of the psychological attitude that we all have a litle bit of about drinking and driving and the fact that the reference to drink was omitted from the original motion. I am not saying it was deliberate or anything like that. But all of us are much more inclined to be eloquent about certain areas of misuse in the area of road traffic than we are on the issue of drinking and driving. I think, for instance, of the extraordinary, often justified, crescendo of concern about joyriders and their victimes and the appalling accidents that have happened. The truth is, of course, that of the hundreds of people who are killed every year on Irish roads a considerable number would not be killed were it not for the abuse of alcohol on the part of the victims or the people who drive the vehicles which are responsible for their deaths.

If we were really to be consistent about the issue of misuse and abuse of motor vehicles and of the roads we would primarily target those who drink and drive. They are responsible for far more deaths than the joyriders who create so many headlines and are given so much attention by the more sensational branches of the media. The single most dangerous threat to human safety on the roads is not occasioned by the people who steal cars and joyride. Very often it is the respectable, solid, family-loving citizens who choose to mix drink and driving. It is not an offence that one can associate with one particular class of society. It appears to me, to be one that is more an offence of the affluent than of the less affluent for the very good reason that by and large it is the affluent who can afford to indulge both habits at the same time.

We have got to move in the direction of enforcement so that, as well as expressing our collective horror at the irresponsibility of such accidents, the probabilities of being caught are increasingly heavily loaded against the abusers. We should begin to think about the penalties imposed for this misuse. In any other area of life the coincidence of alcohol consumption and many other activities very often results in people losing their livelihood. If somebody is working in a responsible job and is found to be affected by alcohol he or she will probably lose their job on the spot. If somebody working in an industry is found to be under the influence of alcohol he or she will probably lose their employment. Admittedly, the penalty imposed on somebody who is found to have an excessive amount of alcohol in his or her blood leads to the withdrawal of their licence. I wonder is it a sufficient penalty. Does it really represent the sense of moral outrage most of us feel at the risk that is being taken with other people's lives by somebody who carries on like this? I say that not in any sense of moral superiority. I do not feel in any way morally superior on these matters. At the same time one has to stand and look at the objective facts, the objective horror of the results of abuse of alcohol by drivers. It results in carnage, death, serious injury, on a scale which were it to happen anywhere else, would have the whole nation assembled in horror. I am sure more people die every year in this country because of the abuse of alcohol by users of road traffic vehicles than have died in five years from the misuse of drugs. Quite rightly we are outraged at the misuse of many other substances.

It is time we took away this curtain of respectability around the misuse of alcohol. As I said about another areas of human activity, drinking is quite good fun. But, like all activities that are pleasurable, it needs to be indulged in with a considerable degree of responsibility. That is not being done in our society. Here there is a question to be asked of ourselves. Do we really regard the person who abuses alcohol as being in the same category as the person who abuses another substance? Have we thrown a certain cloak of respectability over that activity because it is one with which we are familiar, one that is associated with reasonable people, people who are perhaps models of society in many other areas of life? Do we tend therefore to forgive that fault in a way that we would not forgive other faults?

I appeal to the Minister to take whatever steps he deems necessary to ensure that the regulations prescribed for drinking and driving are severely enforced. For instance it is true that some of the most libertarian countries in the world, countries we would describe as the epitome of permissiveness like the Scandinavian countries, have regulations about drinking and driving most of us would regard as horrific in their severity. These are countries we choose to describe as permissive. Perhaps we should look at their priorities, their values and consider ours. I appeal to the Minister to do whatever is necessary, to introduce amending legislation, if necessary. I am in favour of the Garda having power to carry out random checks of people's blood alcohol content, as distinct from the position obtaining under which they are obliged to have a reasonable suspicion that the person has consumed alcohol. Random checks on a grand scale, at particular times of the evening and of the year, would be a considerable disincentive to people. We need to re-order our national values fundamentally to deal with what is a type of a collective immorality — the acceptance and toleration of the abuse of alcohol by drivers.

Mr. Byrne

At times it is frightening to drive on country, county or national primary roads and observe the conduct, not of all lorry or articulated truck drivers but quite a number of them. They drive along in convoys. On a wet day in particular it is almost impossible to overtake them, two or three together and they have been the cause of many accidents. The speed limit is scarcely ever observed vis-à-vis their tonnage. Something will have to be done in that respect. Our roads are over-used by prevailing amounts of traffic, their condition leaving much to be desired. Reckless driving in heavy trucks or lorries means that there is a good chance of bumping into them and losing your life or being seriously injured. The Garda are doing a good job. Indeed they have many urgent matters calling on their time in every area. However, the drivers of articulated trucks should be brought to heel. Their conduct on the roads is scurrilous particularly in winter months when it is frightening to even attempt to pass them. Indeed they do not observe the law vis-à-vis their condition or lighting.

I might mention another problem. Garages should be obliged not to allow any vehicle to be taken onto the roads unless it is registered and displaying a registration plate, whether it be a car or a truck, big or small. We have the problem at present occasioned by what I might describe as the new rich. They are the travelling people. They travel around the south every year in Mercedes, jeeps and trucks which are not registered. It is unknown from where such vehicles emanate. But, if they are involved in robberies or accidents, it is almost impossible for the Garda to track them down. The obligation should be placed on garage owners that no vehicle should be released until registered and displaying a number plate. In this day and age there are many cowboys around who engage in all kinds of activities, particularly at night, such as robbing old people in their homes, stealing livestock of all kinds and being involved in car accidents. It is impossible for the Garda to trace them if they do not display a number plate. That problem is widespread around the country. If that regulation were enforced it would resolve much unsolved crime. It could then be ascertained from where vehicles emanated, whether from across the Border, imported or whatever, because it is a growing problem.

I feel very strongly about the conduct of a high proportion of our lorry drivers. Some lorry drivers will tell you they are in a hurry and that they are heading for the boat at such a time. That is a lot of blarney. The lorry drivers should observe the law of the land. The people who employ those drivers should give them sufficient time to get to their destination. It is unfair to everybody, the driver as well as to the public. I feel very strongly on that issue. I ask the Minister to do something in relation to this matter as soon as possible. They are not observing the law. The motorist, the cyclist or the person walking on the side of the road are scared of their lives. No matter what the standard of the road, whether it is the main road or a country road, it is the same. They are just laughing at the law. I appeal to the Minister to do something about it. We know that many families have been left without their father due to reckless driving on the part of some of those cowboys.

In order to curtail the abuse that is taking place in connection with unregistered cars and trucks, an obligation should be put on the garage owners and the Garda should round up the people who are driving around in unregistered vehicles. This would tighten up many loopholes where the vehicles came from; if the excise duty was paid on them and also the tax and insurance. Those vehicles are probably not insured either and may also be involved in robberies. The Garda feel helpless. These people are a law unto themselves. They invaded my constituency during the summer. I am sure Senator Ferris will know what I am talking about. They can sell anything from colour television sets to computers. They laugh at the law because they are driving around in unregistered vehicles. It is terrible to see a man in a small town paying rates and taxes of all kinds who is trying to make a living and these people can do what they like. They are in every part of the country. It is hard enough on the small family business today to exist without trying to compete with those cowboys. I know the Garda are overworked at times but these people must be brought to heel and also the reckless drivers of those articulated trucks.

I am delighted that this motion was introduced. It was the brainchild of Senator McGowan. This is something about which I have felt very strongly for a number of years. These drivers treat the motorist and the person walking as if they were not human beings at all. Convoys of trucks travel at 80 miles an hour. I was coming back to Dublin not so long ago and I trailed a truck as I could not overtake it. Near my constituency at Rockwell College an articulated truck was travelling at 80 miles an hour on a wet evening. If he had to brake suddenly, he would have killed all before him. There is an abuse there. There is too much emphasis on the man taking a jar. I am not condoning that people should drive when they have too much drink taken. Very often when people have taken a few drinks they are more careful than when they are sober. The reckless cowboys are far more dangerous. I would appeal to the Minister to get something done about that urgently.

Mr. Doyle

We can all agree with certain sentiments in the motion that vehicles should be roadworthy, that vehicles should not be overloaded, that drivers should observe the statutory speed limits and that parking by-laws and that Road Traffic Acts in relation to driver drinking should be obeyed. The motion in the name of all the members of the Fianna Fáil Party in the Seanad opens with an expression that Seanad Éireann expresses the need to enforce the law to control all traffic using our national primary roads and national secondary roads, In stating this, are they implying that the law is not being enforced, that there should be better enforcement or that the law needs to be strengthened in relation to the three specific areas mentioned in the motion? Listening to Senator McGowan — and I thank him for bringing this motion before the House — he has the whole three in mind.

In doing some research on this issue, I was surprised to find the volume of legislation that has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas under the Road Traffic Acts and also the number of statutory instruments which have been introduced from time to time by Ministers for the Environment and especially the statutory instruments which have been introduced bringing our laws into line with the EEC regulations. The EEC have introduced a directive requiring all member states to introduce compulsory vehicle testing for goods vehicles, trailers, large passenger vehicles, taxis and ambulances. The only area that does not come under this compulsory testing at present is the private motor car. I find it hard to understand when member states have that kind of legislation that the things that Senator McGowan said are happening in Northern Ireland are occurring in the southern part of our country. If we are of the view that there are a number of private motor cars using our national and primary roads that are not in roadworthy condition — and I would subscribe to this view — then I feel that the Government should pass the necessary legislation to deal with the aspect of road testing which is at present left uncovered in relation to the private motor car.

The motion speaks about the need to enforce the law, to control all traffic and to ensure that all vehicles are roadworthy. Under the heading of road-worthiness the most important categories would be tyres, steering and brakes. I was interested to find in the Garda Commissioner's report on crime for 1986 under the heading of "defective tyres" the number of offences in which proceedings were taken amounted to 8,957. Under the heading of "defective steering" the figure was 104 and for defective brakes it was 791. In Construction Equipment and Use of Vehicles Regulations, 1986, under the heading "other offences" the number of offences in which proceedings were taken amounted to 20,799. Unfortunately there is no breakdown of the categories of these offences. The numbers which I quoted prove that there is strict enforcement by the Garda in relation to Construction Equipment and Use of Vehicles Regulations.

Under the Road Traffic Acts offences against lighting regulations, the number of offences in which proceedings were taken amounted to 18,815. I am sure all Members of the House will agree that the lighting of public vehicles is a very important aspect of road safety. There were 208 convictions in relation to dangerous parking, 6,081 convictions in relation to dangerous driving and 3,240 convictions in relation to driving without insurance. Under the heading of drink and driving — I will only mention one statistic that is in relation to driving or attempting to drive a motor vehicle with blood, urine, alcohol concentration above the prescribed limit — there were 4,348 convictions. The purpose of quoting these figures is to show to the House that the law has been enforced in relation to traffic offences.

I take this opportunity to congratulate the Garda for their work in this area. What we need in this country is not just to enforce the law: the public should be educated and informed of their need to uphold the law. Senator O'Toole referred to that and I fully agree with it. The scant respect that people today pay to our Road Traffic Acts frightens me. People have a moral duty to drive cars that are roadworthy. They should have good tyres, good brakes, good steering and so on. This is an individual responsibility that people have to face up to and it applies to the private motorist as well as to those who drive juggernauts. In certain circumstances people seem to make a mockery of our laws. They boast sometimes about the number of parking tickets they receive. In order to bring home to the public their need to uphold the law, when people commit minor offences — I would ask the Minister to bear in mind illegal parking — there should be some kind of points system in operation and that when they have committed a certain number of offences their licence should be taken from them for a short period of time. They would then take far more seriously the laws as we have them.

I am frightened by the amount of illegal parking in our cities, especially in the city of Dublin and the number of people who fail to obey speed limits. A new phenomenon in the city of Dublin — I am sure it applies to other cities — is the number of people failing to obey the traffic lights when they are against them. This is a most serious offence.

The two areas I want to mention are driving without insurance and driving under the influence of drink. These are criminal offences. They are offences against society itself and society should see them in that way. The offence of driving while under the influence of drink has been addressed by Senator Brendan Ryan but I consider driving without insurance to be equally as serious. It is a criminal action for somebody to take a car out on a road and not be covered by insurance.

Finally, I want to relate to a local problem. We have spoken in this debate about the consideration that people who use the roads should have for one another. They should also have consideration for people who live by the roadsides. In my own area, in Bath Street-Pembroke Street, people are frightened out of their wits by the huge juggernauts, heavy vehicles and buses passing by at high speed. The people have started blocking the roads. I cannot support their illegal action but I understand their emotions. I will give an example of a lady who lives in one of the houses in this area. Her son returned from England on the mail boat after a very choppy crossing and went to bed for three or four hours. When he awoke he felt he was still on the mail boat, the house was shaking so much. These people live in fear and terror. Heavy traffic could use alternative routes. It might not be as convenient for them or there might be a charge on a toll bridge but in such circumstances our laws should be made in such a way as to encourage, maybe force, drivers of heavy vehicles to use alternative routes. As I said earlier, we can have all the laws we like but the people must have the will to respect and to obey them.

Mr. Farrell

I want to speak largely on behalf of the Irish Road Haulage Association whom I have represented for some time in this House. As one who drove a truck in my younger days and has been in constant touch with that business I know some of the problems facing the legal hauliers. There are two laws in this country, one for the official legal haulier who must work within the law and one for bigger companies and some of the cowboys too, who are working with overloaded trucks in order to cut prices. The legal hauliers believe that something should be done in this area. There are a number of weighbridges in operation but they are only manned for spot checks. They should be manned at least during working hours and there should also be an emergency service. If the Garda stop a truck driver and suspect his vehicle is overloaded there is no emergency service whereby they can call out the weighbridge personnel to weigh the vehicle. If that vehicle coule be weighed there and then we could impose the same restrictions as are imposed on Irish hauliers who travel to the Continent or to England. In those countries there are spot checks and weighing facilities on tap 24 hours a day. We do not have that service but it is something we will have to consider.

The standard load for a five axle vehicle in Ireland is 38 tonnes. On the Continent it is 40 tonnes. The standard load here should be the same as that on the Continent. Problems arise for a truck driver travelling with a load to the Continent. Naturally he wants to bring the maximum load so unless he has a pick up truck carrying two tonnes following him to the Border he is more or less compelled to overload by at least two tonnes in order to make his trip worthwhile. The price he gets depends on the weight he can carry. The hauliers ask me to implore the Minister to increase the standard load from 38 tonnes to 40 tonnes. That would be a very important move and would help the haulage business to operate in a much more satisfactory way.

Another matter to which I wish to refer and to which Senator McGowan also referred is imported trucks. You can import a truck from England or Northern Ireland, use it for a month without having it tested and at the end of that month you can tax it. You do not have to have it tested for another 12 months. You can tax it on the import dockets and documentation and that is unfair to our businessmen who are in the trade here. The Irishman will have to give at least £15,000 for the same truck here and will have to have everything in order from the word go. The person who imports his truck is not tied to specific contracts, he has time for this type of manoeuvring. He will get 18 months work out of the truck for £5,000 and at the end of that time he can sell it for £2,500 to £3,000 for scrap. The person here who is living by the law has to pay £15,000 for a truck so he is beaten on price and competition. The law should state that someone who imports a truck should have to put it through a test before the duty is paid and before it is allowed in legally or certainly within a month of coming into the country. That would cut out much of the irregularities so far as imported trucks are concerned.

Another bone of contention is cabotage which is where a truck driver comes in from Northern Ireland, delivers a load in Ballyshannon, picks up another load there, delivers it in Dublin and then drives to Dundalk either with or without another load. He can pick up the load in the State and deliver it in the State and there is no way that our people can compete with that. We must come to grips with this problem. At present the Garda are powerless to do anything about the matter.

I would like to pay tribute to the Revenue Commissioners who are doing their best to come to grips with this problem. Our laws should be amended so as to stop illegal haulage within the Twenty-six Counties. This is a very big bone of contention with the road hauliers and this House is the proper place to make this point. I hope the Minister will take notice of it.

Our laws seem to over-emphasise the tachograph. This device is checked regularly because it is easy to do so but the loads are not checked because we do not have a service to check them 24 hours a day. We have no service to check illegal haulage which I referred to as cabotage. These are some of the main problems we should come to grips with.

I would like to pay a special tribute to the legal road hauliers of Ireland. All the licensed hauliers keep a good quality and a good standard of truck and they rarely, if ever, violate the law but it is nearly impossible for them to keep within the law when other boys can come in and use trucks and overload them to cut prices. This price-cutting is affecting the livelihood of the needy and it is costing this country dearly in maintenance of roads. If the weighbridge system was operated on an eight or nine hour day constantly and provided emergency service, overloading and short haulage would be forgotten. Trucks running short distances with big loads and driving very fast are playing havoc with our roads, particularly our county roads. If we had a proper weighbridge service those trucks could be pulled in at any time of the day. Trucks would have to keep to the regulated weight and that would in the long run save the Government and the country much money and many problems.

In all fairness, the drivers of those trucks are great men. Take the number of trucks that are on the road, the loads they have to carry and the frustration of enduring various regulations. We talk about them speeding, but I would not like to see that being carried too far. When a man comes up to Dublin, it could take him an hour to get from Lucan down to the docks. Is it fair that that tachograph time should be booked up against him? What does he do? Does he stop at Castlebar on the way home if he has to go to Westport, or at Boyle if he has to go to Sligo? He can be held up going through Longford, another bottleneck as regards time. We should consider truck drivers who are caught so frequently in rush hours in traffic. We should have a system designed on the hours a haulier is driving, not on the hours between when he gets into a truck and when he gets out of it. In that way we could be of great help to people concerned in truck driving.

This matter needs careful consideration. I would not like to see too much harassment, so to speak, of lorry drivers. Until such time as we make our laws so watertight that men coming from the Continent, from England or elsewhere all have the same advantage the position will remain unsatisfactory. At the moment the man who is operating from here with the price of trucks as it is and so on is working under a grave disadvantage.

Information I have here indicates that 35 tonnes is the load for a four axle truck. I am reliably informed that if the same load were carried by fixed truck with a trailer this country would be saved millions of pounds. The articulated trucks and juggernauts should never have been permitted to come in here. Even at this late stage it might be wise of us to consider how we might rearrange the whole truck scene.

This motion takes into account also the private motorist, and in this regard we should have a very close system of monitoring. I agree with the Senator who referred to crashed cars. At present we have a big problem with crashed cars being brought in from England. They are being sold cheap, but are they cheap? Are they cheap when you go through them with a fine comb after they have broken down and you realise that you are not buying one car cheap but three cars put into one and no car in the end? We will have to come to grips with the question of importation of cheap cars. Cars that are written off should be written off here, in England and in every country and should not be allowed back on the market. We will have to look very seriously at that problem which is facing the Irish motorist and the Irish motor traders. The trouble is that a man thinks he is buying a car, but he is not getting a bargain.

I ask the Minister to consider those matters, maybe to relax a little on the tachograph and give consideration to hold-ups, etc. Let me ask him again to bring in the 40 tons regulation and enforce it rigidly. I hope he will see some way to have not alone spot checks for the weighing of vehicles — those are not sufficient — but a stand-by service when a truck is required to be weighed. Within one month of coming in to this country an imported truck should have to pass the MOT test.

Mr. Ferris

I will be brief because my colleague, Senator Daly, also wants to speak before 8 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

There is a quarter of an hour left and if you divide it with Senator Daly that is fine.

Mr. Ferris

I have no problem with the motion or the amendments. I am pleased that the amendments are put in because they put the motion in context in that if we have a law applying to any road it will apply to all of the roads. From the occasional accusations made against the Minister about county roads or roads which are maintained by the county council solely he will be aware that the condition of some of these roads does not lend itself to safe traffic and particularly the heavy trucks that are using the roads nowadays, be they milk tankers or school buses. Many of the county roads and non-route roads are totally unsuitable for the demands made on them and our job as local authority members to keep them up to the standard required for the kind of vehicular traffic on them is rendered impossible. If I had my way I would allow no juggernauts or high load traffic on any of our roads.

The loads such vehicles carry should be on the railways — considering that we have an integrated national rail network for carrying goods to docks for export and otherwise. If we could keep as much goods as possible on rail we would cut down overall expenditure on the national primary routes. It has become popular in recent years to transport everything by road and, as my colleague Senator Byrne has said, it is impossible at times for ordinary vehicular traffic to use the roads safely and in comfort because of the speeds of some of this heavy traffic, the type of loads which it carries and the obligation on carriers of some loads to declare publicly the substances they are carrying. I was amazed recently at some of the scares that had been created by containers bringing toxic substances and pulling up for a lunchtime break in the middle of a rural town without a declaration to that effect. If an accident occurred, much damage could be caused by such vehicles parked in public places. That is why I am anxious to have the largest volume of such goods carried on rail. It would be safer and CIE are now geared to do this kind of work.

I am not sure whether the motion infers that there is no enforcement of the existing laws. Within the limitations on the Garda they are pretty diligent about enforcing the law in all the areas mentioned in this motion and in the amendments particularly in the areas relating to drunken driving and tax and insurance. We have come a long way in this regard. The obligation to put an insurance certificate on the windscreen of motor cars was a welcome change in the law, because people can immediately know whether a vehicle is insured. The fact that there is mandatory loss of licence for people who are guilty of drunken driving must be a disincentive to people to drive a vehicle in an unfit condition. Recently, because of technicalities in the Department of Justice summonses issued in this area were quashed. Thankfully that was also tidied up. Generally speaking, we want road users to be conscious of their responsibilities to other road users and indeed to pedestrians and children. One dreads the thought of tragic accidents particularly for public representatives who drive thousands of miles per week scurrying around between clinics and meetings. Whereas the Minister may be exempt in his ministerial car driven by a Garda driver——

An Cathaoirleach

Nobody is exempt from the law.

Mr. Ferris

I said "Whereas the Minister may be." I did not say he was exempt, because I know of some junior Ministers who were not and who discovered it to their grief. When Ministers have a Garda escort it is presumed that they can scurry along; but we know that we have to be cautious and careful in our constituencies over the week-ends even when we are so busy. We would like to know that it is safe to be out on the roads, as we are required to be on the roads late at night.

There have been some excellent contributions on this Bill from people like Senator Farrell who is an expert in the area. We talked about the lorry driver and the lone juggernaut driver, the man who drives late at night and sleeps in the cab. I however, am worried about the responsibility of the employee in regard to tax and insurance. If an employer does not adequately tax or insure his vehicle the driver is technically at fault. I have one driver in my constituency who is perpetually in court as a result of the inability of his employer to do the right thing. It is the employee who ends up in court. The employer is never taken to court although he is the owner of the vehicle and he is responsible for it. The law should be specific as to who is responsible for having tax and insurance on the truck and for having it roadworthy. Is it the responsibility of the driver or of the owner? From my experience with summons to employees, the responsibility is obviously the drivers. Naturally, a driver working for a company cannot tell his boss that he should do such a thing, and he would not be capable of doing it himself. I have strings of appeals to the Minister for Justice to ensure that ordinary working people are not submitted to jail sentences for non-payment of extraordinary fines, for not having carried out the basics in the area of the provision of tax and insurance.

Senator Byrne mentioned another phenomenon of recent years, that is the nondescript trading that seems to go on on the national primary route. One never sees it on the country roads because customers are scarce on the country roads. All these elite itinerants who are not tinkers and who are not poor, sweep in and out of areas on the national primary route, and set up shop on the roadside creating a traffic hazard, and the planning law cannot stop them. We have requested the Customs and Excise people to come out and check the vehicles. We do not know whether they are taxed or insured or whether the goods for sale have VAT applied to them.

One of the problems in relation to enforcing the law is the number of people we have on the ground to enforce the laws. Other countries have electronic equipment which does not need manpower to operate it, to monitor vehicles breaking the speed limit. Here we all flash our lights to warn on-coming cars that a Garda is on the road with a blue striped car; so the Garda is wasting his time.

I am also concerned about carriers of offensive offal driving through towns and villages. They are required under legislation to have these containers airtight, watertight and covered to avoid annoyance, and spillage in towns and villages. This is not happening. In my constituency the town of Cahir is plagued with this. Unless we can get the number of the offending vehicle it is very difficult to do anything about it. Under the Road Traffic Act we should be able to tidy up the responsibility of the Garda in that area. At present the responsibility rests with the local authority.

I am sure the Minister in the overall parameters of the budget, will tell us that he will not be able to double the Garda force, which is the only way to meet the sentiments expressed by Senator McGowan and his colleagues. But at least, this motion has allowed us an opportunity to remind the Minister of his responsibilities in the area of the non-routes and the county roads, to try to bring them up to the standard that would be required to make them safe for the use of vehicular traffic. At the moment with the bad condition of the roads and because of uncut hedges and so on such traffic as articulated trucks, milk containers and school buses are unsafe at any speed. I hope, as Senator Joe Doyle said, that road users will behave responsibly when driving a machine that could be deadly if not driven properly.

An Cathaoirleach

I should really go over to the Government side of the House now but I will call Senator Daly. There are only four minutes left.

Mr. J. Daly

I thank Senator Ferris for sharing his time. He just gave me enough time to welcome the Minister to this House. The motion says:

"That Seanad Éireann expresses the need to enforce the law to control all traffic using our National Primary Roads.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Daly, you will have the balance of your time when this debate is continued, so you need only say whatever you wish in the five minutes.

Mr. J. Daly

Is it true that approximately 60 per cent of the vehicles on the road today are unroadworthy, the reason being that we do not have a MOT test? Various Governments thought about bringing it in, but there was always some problem about sufficient staff, staff recruitment or whatever. I would ask the Minister to have a look at that and perhaps the next day when I get a second bite of the cherry, he will be able to tell me about it.

Debate adjourned.

An Cathaoirleach

When is it proposed to sit again?

Mr. McGowan

It is proposed to sit again at 2.30 p.m. next Wednesday.