It is proposed to take Item No. 3 followed by Items Nos. 4, 73 and 5. In regard to Item No. 3, it is proposed to take all Stages. If we find we have time we will move to Item No. 4. There will be a sos between 6 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. and from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. we will take motion 73. From 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. we will take Item No. 5 — Statements regarding the Gulf War. That is a two hour debate and Senators will be limited to ten minutes in their speeches.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, I would like to ask the Leader of the House two questions. First — and I know I have raised this before, as other Members have — will he give serious consideration to a series of statements on Northern Ireland in the next couple of weeks? The time has been reached where it is important that things be said and issues be questioned on that subject.
Secondly, there is the question of the local elections and the proposed legislation on the reform of local authorities. Members would like to get some indication from the Leader of the House — perhaps he cannot give it today but could inquire from the Government — of the progress of this legislation and when we may expect to see it introduced. Further, I ask him to make every effort to see that it is introduced first in this House because Members here have a particular expertise and a special interest in the reform of local government. It is an issue on which we are all agreed on the need for reform and I ask the Leader to do his best to see that the legislation is initiated in this House.
I want to put on record that I am grateful to the Leader of the House for making time available for the discussion on the Gulf to start this afternoon. We would have preferred perhaps an earlier time and more time, but we recognise there is a pressure of business. We would just like to put on record our appreciation for making the time available.
I support Senator Manning in his call for a debate on Northern Ireland. We have called for it on a number of occasions, most recently last week, and we ask that it be broad enough to cover all the areas of concern. In the context of the talks that are taking place and of the developments recently in relation to extradition, we should be able to deal with the whole messy situation that has developed where we do not seem to have got our act together properly.
We are not going to go over old ground again.
Secondly, I wish to ask, as I have asked before, that we have a debate on the new Programme for Economic and Social Progress. Here we have a situation where a debate is going on today in the Lower House. It started yesterday and tomorrow there will be a special delegate conference of the trade union movement to vote on that programme. Yet there has not been——
Put a question to the Leader of the House, Senator.
There has not been a peep out of this House. I would say to the Leader of the House that, when we have a programme that is going to dictate social and economic progress for the next three years, it is totally unreal that we should not have the opportunity of discussing it.
Finally, I wish to ask whether the Leader of the House will allow us time to discuss the new proposals to increase the VAT on ESB, particularly since for old age pensioners and for people who have difficulty in making ends meet the benefits given in the budget and being paid in July will almost contemporaneously be taken away by the new VAT increases.
I want to strongly support the matter raised by Senator Manning. I do so because I think it is important to have a voice and to allow the democratic system to contribute rather than have the paramilitaries dictating the pace, with no other voice apparent about what is happening in the name of the Irish people. I think it is totally unacceptable. There are many people who want to have a voice and who want to condemn the atrocities——
Put a question to the Leader of the House, Senator.
I am sorry. I ask the Leader to please give time to this matter, which is of paramount importance. It is basic and should be before everything else. I want to strongly support Senator Manning and I am certain members of my own party will understand that this is a matter of grave concern.
You are making a speech, Senator. We must keep to Standing Orders.
I am the only Member of the House who has to motor through the difficult area of the North of Ireland——
I realise that what you are saying is a matter of serious and grave concern to you, but we must ensure that questions are put to the Leader of the House.
I appreciate your helpful attitude. I want to express the strongest possible support for Senator Manning's call.
First and briefly, I concur with Senator McGowan in relation to the atrocities done in the name of the Irish people. But I rise primarily to ask the Leader of the House to convey to the Government our increasing concern about the shortfall of finances in the health boards which will, no doubt, be manifested in a shortage of hospital beds, in diminished care, and in increased waiting lists for the sick. This is of such gravity that I appeal to the Leader of the House to convey the great anxiety of my party on this to the Government——
A question to the Leader of the House, Senator.
The question is: would the Leader of the House be agreeable to convey this to the Government as a matter of urgency?
I would like to support the request made by Senator Manning and Senator McGowan for a debate on Northern Ireland. I will say no more than that, just to say that I support and join in that request.
I would like also to rephrase a question I asked the last day, because either I did not express it correctly or the Leader of the House slightly misunderstood it. It was about Item No. 13, which is the "Bill entitled an Act to amend and extend the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act, 1956." I asked whether the Leader would consider representing to the Government that the provisions of this Bill should be looked at in conjunction with the Bill that is being referred to a committee in the Dáil to deal with Romanian adoptions. The reply I got from the Leader was that he did not intend to take Item No. 13, but that was not precisely what I asked — I realise there may be some difficulty with that — but would it be possible to see if the ideas contained in that could be looked at by this committee.
Notwithstanding the very positive remarks of Senator O'Toole about the granting of an opportunity to make statements on the Gulf, I would like to ask the Leader of the House, if he would consider extending this time in order to give an opportunity to all Members, or at least a greater number of Members, many of whom wish to make a rational statement on this issue? I do not believe that with two and a half or three minutes to each Member it is possible to address a really complex situation and one that is probably the most important item of foreign import that has come before this House. I appeal to the Leader to extend this time. It is, as Senator O'Toole indicated, not the very best time to discuss the matter but if we take ourselves seriously as a House of the Oireachtas we must give an appropriate time, and an appropriate length of time, for these matters to be discussed.
I rise again to speak on the issue of agriculture. The Leader promised us last week and the week before that we would have a debate on this matter. As time passes confusion grows and this House should have an urgent debate on this topic. My question is: when can we have the debate and, through the Minister for Agriculture, let Mr. MacSharry know what the real situation is on the ground?
First, I, like my colleague, Senator O'Toole, thank the Leader for giving us the opportunity to speak on the Gulf. We can put it on the record that we are having something that has not so far happened in the other House; we are actually having a debate in which Members have time to contribute on the issue of the Gulf War. That is a small achievement for this House, for which the Leader in particular deserves credit. I could, of course, argue about the time; but I am happy enough to have a short debate and to have us show the sort of concern we should have.
May I ask the Leader a very specific question about the statements in the debate on the Gulf? Will there be a Minister present? Will the Minister be making a statement and, if he is making a statement, can he ensure that the Minister keeps his statement somewhere within the same time limits as the rest of us, because two hours is very short? Ministers can make a long statement that could take up 45 minutes out of two hours. I am not going to attempt to suggest that a Minister who speaks for 12 minutes should be curtailed like the rest of us, but a word in the ears of the wise could perhaps persuade a Minister to deal with the issue and not with a lot of other issues in the course of a speech.
I support particularly what Senator McGowan said and ask the Leader to have a debate on Northern Ireland. Senator McGowan made it very clear. There is nothing wrong with democracy. It is the best government system that humanity has so far devised. To have the organs of democracy silenced while other idiots attempt to use other ways, which are——
I must remind you to put your question, Senator.
My question, as I thought I was making clear, was to ask the Leader yet again to allow a long, open-ended debate in this House on the whole question of and the variable multiple dimensions of the problems in Northern Ireland.
Finally, I would like to say to the Leader, not in an attempt to trip him up but simply as a reminder, that we have not forgotten that he did commit himself to allowing a debate on the prison system. May we have some indication of when he proposes to have that debate? Is it in terms of weeks or months?
I, too, would like to say I am pleased to note we are going to have an opportunity of a debate on the Gulf War. I hope we are late with our debate and that it will be all over by the time the debate is completed.
Optimism.
I hope it is and I am sure anybody else hopes it is, too. Sometimes we underrate ourselves in small countries and assemblies such as this. If every assembly and every small country in the world spoke out about atrocities and asked people to sit around tables and talk, it would be done. It is never a waste of time for any group of people to raise their voices, whether they be condemning the invasion of Kuwait, or the bombing in Baghdad, or indeed in the North of Ireland. I am not going to make a speech on the North of Ireland, I understand what is required of a Senator on the Order of Business, but let me say that it is very important for our own fellow countrymen living in Britain that every Irish voice and every body and every group, official and unofficial, in this country be heard condemning the bombing that took place against innocent people a few days ago. It was horrific.
Senators
Hear, hear.
I would also like, with your permission, a Chathaoirligh, to propose a vote of sympathy to the family of the late Patrick (Fad) Browne who was a Senator in this House for a number of years. It is very disturbing for me and causes me a great deal of concern to have to propose this vote of sympathy. I served in the Seanad with Fad Browne and it is always sad when you hear or read of the death of somebody with whom you served. I am particularly sorry about Fad Browne. He was a very splendid man. He loved all things Irish, he hurled for his native county and he represented the Waterford people in this House and in the Dáil. I would like to propose that the sympathy of this House be extended to his family.
On the Order of Business, may I ask the Leader of the House if he would convey to the Minister for Finance and other Ministers our concern at the proposed VAT increase on ESB bills, which is going to be felt by consumers and in particular by the many social welfare recipients who are least able to bear any increase. It is very important and I echo what Senator Costello said.
I would like to support asking of the Leader of the House for a debate on agriculture that would give us an opportunity to commend Commissioner MacSharry on the tremendous job he is doing for the small farmers.
I would like to compliment the Leader on his response last week to my question on the introduction of legislation to correct the situation regarding crime committed by people with diminished responsibility and ask him if he has made any progress with the Minister for Justice with regard to introducing such a Bill to this House. I would also like to concur with the request for a debate on Northern Ireland and express my horror at the events in Britain over the past few days.
May I add my voice to the request for a debate on Northern Ireland? I also join in the condemnations of the appalling events which took place in London earlier this week. Finally, I express my concern and join with the Members of the Dáil who voiced their concern about extradition and how it is working at present, particularly in the case that is at present before the courts in the UK.
I would like to support Senator Hugh Byrne and call for a debate on agriculture. It is most important for the small farmer. Agriculture is our greatest industry and its future is in the balance now. A debate on agriculture is much needed.
I would like to be associated with the vote of sympathy proposed by Senator Hanafin to the family of the late Patrick (Fad) Browne. I would also like to know what is the procedure regarding votes of sympathy in this House. You often see in the Official Report votes of sympathy for former Members. There is one former Member who died and I do not remember an expression of sympathy to his family, that is the late Senator Joe Lennon with whom I served. We must be consistent in our procedures regarding expressions of sympathy.
The normal practice, and the practice that should be adopted with regard to votes of sympathy, is that Members should communicate to the Leader of the House votes of sympathy in which they have an interest and he will move the vote of sympathy before the Order of Business. If that happens, in so far as the Leader of the House wishes to move it, we can pay a suitable tribute and stand as a mark of respect.
I would like to lend my support also to Senator Byrne and other Senators who have asked for a debate on agriculture. I ask the Leader to make available to us urgently an opportunity in order that the serious plight of farmers may be highlighted to the maximum.
The first point I noted is that we should pay tribute to the former Senator Patrick Fad Browne and send appropriate sympathy to his family. I must confess I was not aware of the death of former Senator Joe Lennon. I would also like to express the sympathy of the House to his family.
Senator Manning and a number of Senators asked about statements on Northern Ireland. In the knowledge that there is a great deal of legislation before us, I have no plan at this time for a debate on this important matter — and I accept it is a very important matter. I will have discussions with the Whips regarding it and if anything can be done then it will be done.
Senator Manning also asked about the local elections and legislation on local government reform. My understanding is that there is continued ongoing preparation of the legislation. It was indicated in the Dáil yesterday that legislation would be introduced in Easter — summer, session; I hope it will be as quickly as possible after Easter. With regard to initiating the legislation, it is something I will endeavour to do and will continue to do at every opportunity. I have noted Senator O'Toole's comments.
Senator Costello referred to statements on Northern Ireland and asked for a debate on the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. That is important and will be taken for debate in this House, almost certainly next week.
Senator Costello also raised the question of VAT on electricity. I have no plan for a debate on that, but it seems to me that it is suitable for discussion on the Adjournment or in Private Members' time.
Senator MacGowan referred to Northern Ireland. Senator O'Reilly spoke about the funding of the health boards. I can say to him that the Government are aware of our concerns on this.
Senator Norris asked for Item No. 13 to be taken and also mentioned the question of a debate on Northern Ireland. I am sorry if I took the wrong meaning from what the Senator indicated. I will see whether this legislation can help in any way in the recognition of Foreign Adoptions Bill that is at present before the other House. He also asked for extra time for a debate on the Gulf War. It was mentioned, in a different context perhaps, that 8 p.m. to 10 p.m. was a suitable time for a debate and this is the time that, has been agreed by the Whips.
Senator Hugh Byrne, not for the first time, asked for a debate on agriculture. He has been quite consistent on this. This is something that will be dealt with very soon — I am not certain, but hopefully next week.
Senator Brendan Ryan asked for a debate on Northern Ireland, on the prison system and related matters. That is being pursued actively. I gave Senators, including Senator Ryan, an assurance that we will have a debate on those matters as soon as possible.
Senator Hanafin referred to the Gulf War and expressed a hope, which we all share, for an end to the war. He also frankly condemned the IRA bombs in London. My reply to Senator Cosgrave on the matter concerning the ESB is the same as my reply to Senator Costello. Senator Lydon asked for a debate on agriculture which I dealt with previously. I have made no progress with regard to the point Senator Neville made. It is something I will pursue. The Senator also referred to a debate on Northern Ireland. Senator Upton's question was not appropriate to the Order of Business. He referred to the question of extradition. Senator Rory Kiely referred to agriculture, as did Senator Hourigan. I have already answered these queries.
Order of Business agreed to.