Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 22 May 1991

Vol. 129 No. 1

Death of Rajiv Gandhi. - Educational Exchange (Ireland and the United States of America) Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed.)

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mrs. Jackman

With the other Senators, I welcome the introduction of this Bill. The commitment to extend this excellent programme goes back to 1984, as other speakers have said, when President Reagan came to this country. Looking back for a moment to the post-war period of 1948, up to £6 million sterling came to this country to help us to rebuild and to improve our infrastructure. Out of that, £500,000 was taken to invest in scholarship exchange so that academics and post-graduates could travel to the United States and similarly qualified people could come to Ireland to study.

It is no harm to refer to the close cooperation between Ireland and the United States, which goes back to post-Famine times. Looking at it from the American viewpoint, the interest in culture, language and literature by American visitors to this country is enormous, apart from the interest of students, post-graduates and highly qualified academics coming to this country to study. From our viewpoint, as one of the EC countries looking towards the United States, one need only note the number of multinationals in this country and the close links between ourselves and industry in the States to realise the benefit for post-graduate academics studying in the United States. They are studying highly competitive industries using state-of-the-art technology, etc. It is a time of great scope for those of our students who will be able to avail of this scholarship to travel.

It is sad in one sense because for many of our students it is not just a question of travelling on exchange scholarships; it is a question of sending out our talented and our best and sometimes they may not come back to us. That is the major problem in relation to exchange. Once you have an outflow of talent and experience from this country there is always the risk our graduates will be snapped up, as indeed has happened within the EC countries where industries queue up to get our graduates.

Unfortunately for this country there is not a great deal of funding available for post-graduate courses. Families are barely able to assist their children when they reach third level — those who cannot avail of grants — to achieve primary degree status. In many cases the chances of going on to do MAs or PhDs is very slim. This exchange certainly gives an opportunity for those people to study, to go forward and do their PhDs. It is not just in the world of academe; it is also in the world of commerce, industry and business, and it can only bring us enormous benefits.

I did not see numbers in the Minister's presentation to us last week with regard to those who actually apply and those who have achieved the opportunity of studying abroad. I would be very anxious to know how many students in this country have availed of the exchange programme going back to the Fulbright days and also the moneys that have been expended on an annual basis between ourselves and the United States to ensure that they get the benefits of that exchange.

I notice, too, that the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Foreign Affairs have responsibilities in this area. I know Senator Raftery when speaking on this Bill was particularly keen to ensure that the Department of Education would be involved. I would be inclined to think that it would be a far better vehicle to have, in order to streamline the whole educational aspect. I would have thought that the Department of Education would have been the vehicle for the organisation and implementation of the exchange programme.

On going through the Bill I find I have a few points to raise, which were also raised by other Senators. Does the body that will be set up report back to the Dáil, the Seanad or to the Department of Finance? I was not very clear about that. Likewise, I have a point in relation to the moneys which would accrue to this country in relation to the dissolution or the eventual termination of the agreement. It is obvious that the moneys coming from the United States are greater than the moneys that we are actually putting into the programme. What would be the situation if there was an eventual termination of the agreement? It is stated here that funds revert to the Government of Ireland. Obviously, it is laudable, since the commission is to be established for charitable purposes only, that the funds would be donated or transferred to another institution having similar objectives.

There is an interesting point in relation to individuals. There is very little that I was able to find out about Mr. Fulbright himself. I would have liked to have seen some reference to the Fulbright programme in the Bill. Perhaps the Minister would be able to give us some information on William Fulbright and how he came to be organising scholarship exchange schemes.

In my own area, the mid-west, we have the University of Limerick, which is a university with strong United States links and, over the last few months, Japanese links. There have been bursaries from which American citizens, with Irish blood going back over several generations, have endowed institutions to create opportunities for study for young students. I have found that the moneys of one individual, Mr. Friedman, to the four universities — the three constituent NUI colleges and Trinity — and now the University of Limerick have given opportunities for young girls, particularly young girls in need, to study in America. Therefore, it is not just Fulbright and this education exchange programme alone which is creating opportunities for study abroad; we could enumerate many individuals who have honoured Ireland in their wills, etc., to ensure that, in recognition of whatever they got from their country going back over several generations, future generations of young people here could study abroad. It is interesting that that particular man Mr. Friedman, married a young Irish girl of very poor means, and it was from seeing how destitute this young girl was coming from Ireland to America that he realised that perhaps there were similar young girls in Ireland who would not have an opportunity to study abroad. It is interesting that the emotional contact with the country is never forgotten and is put to good use; except for such programmes many students would not have the opportunity to study abroad.

I am not familiar with the Fulbright programme in the early stages but I welcome it and there will be benefits in it for our students and for the Americans. Although we may underestimate our contribution to American universities, staff records of major Irish third level and business and commercial institutions reveal the number of Irish graduates who have studied for post-graduate degrees in America and returned to managerial and chief executive positions in our major industries and universities. This phenomenon has not been quantified but one becomes aware of it when doing research on something like this.

We can contribute to America in the area of literature and the humanities which the Americans, being a newly-discovered continent, look for to compensate for their lack of roots. Our writers have been lauded throughout the world and many have received the Nobel Prize for literature; we are not far from June when we will have our Joycean walks and all the rest. We should not underestimate our potential contribution to a country which is fast, competitive, innovative and consumer-oriented. All over the world, in EC countries and particularly in America they are beginning to realise that there is more to life than high technology, that graduates in computers, electronics, etc. need the leavening of the humanities to bring about a more civilised, humane and developed lifestyle for all. We can contribute toward that objective.

As a country that is almost totally dependent on exports for survival, we need to be aware of how institutes operate abroad in those areas which are important to us such as commerce, industry and education. There is no better way for us to gain that experience than for our young people to be able to achieve the heights of academic success in American universities. I hope we can quantify the numbers who have come back to contribute to our economy rather than giving up their best to the multinationals abroad, as has happened in the past. I thank the Minister and welcome this Bill.

Mr. E. Ryan

I would like to welcome the Educational Exchange (Ireland and the United States of America) Bill, 1991. It is important that Ireland should increase the number of its exchanges with other countries. The original Fulbright programme was initiated by Senator Fulbright to foster mutual understanding between the people of the United States and other countries. These were very noble and worthwhile aims and is to the credit of the Senator that he initiated such a programme. That was in 1946 and great work has been done since in the United States and in other countries to increase the level of exchanges.

Since 1957, 800 Irish students and 300 American students have benefited under the Fulbright programme. Irish people who have gone to America have benefited from the industrial technological point of view. Some speakers have mentioned what we in Ireland can offer to the United States. We can offer our writers, our poets, our culture and much more.

The purpose of the Ireland-United States Commission for educational exchange will be to encourage other related educational and cultural programmes and activities. Ireland, as a neutral country, has an important standing and we are admired in many parts of the Third World and in certain troubled areas such as the Middle East. In this context our exchanges should include and show a greater understanding of Middle East cultures.

I am a great admirer of the United States. I have been there on a number of occasions. In fact, I have lived there and some of my family live there. I believe the United States is a wonderful country, and a lot of the criticism about that country actually comes from it. I remember a film director talking about political films that were critical of the United States, for example, the film "Missing" about the Chilean coup and which criticised American foreign policy, and he said: "We may be criticising the US but it is one of the few countries in the world where we could make the film which is why we made it there."

We should encourage the United States to appreciate the culture of Third World countries and get a better understanding of what is happening. The conditions of many people in the Third World, in South America and in the Middle East are very bad and we could perhaps get across to the United States that many such countries take up a certain political stance because they do not see any other way out of their economic predicament other than by adopting a radical political stance.

There is great potential for Ireland to convey to the US aspects of cultural differences which they have not previously understood. I visited Iran last year and one would have to be sympathetic about their treatment by the United States. There is an opening there and a great potential for Ireland to establish improved cultural relations between America and Iran and America and other countries in Latin America and elsewhere. As a member of the European Community, cultural exchanges between Ireland and the United States will enable the United States to learn how the Community is becoming more united in cultural and economic matters, on monetary union and political union. It is important that the United States understand the process taking place in Europe and appreciate that Ireland is enthusiastic about European unity and that we are part and parcel of that Community.

A great many benefits have accrued to Ireland and to the United States through these exchanges since 1957 and I hope, under the new programme, that many more people will benefit. There are strong connections between the United States and Ireland and I hope we will continue to enjoy our good, friendly relationship with them for many years to come and that the cultural and academic exchanges will be a success.

Mr. Costello

I would like to welcome the Educational Exchange (Ireland and the United States of America) Bill, 1991. It is desirable that there be a wealth of exchanges between countries. We are dealing here with the United States but provisions are also being made in the European context for exchanges of an educational and cultural nature. It is in everybody's interest that there be an inter-linking of people, particularly at educational and cultural levels. I welcome the main provisions and the scope and extended terms of reference stated in the Bill compared to its predecessor, the Scholarship Exchange Bill in 1957. It is gratifying and useful to see provision made for exchanges of students, research scholars and teachers between the two countries. Such exchanges are taking place to a lesser degree at present but are soon to be increased between European Community member states.

I am glad the proposed exchanges will extend to cultural programmes and activities as well as to educational matters. A rigid line cannot be drawn between education and culture; there is an overlapping and the two areas are better addressed jointly rather than by a narrow interpretation or definition of education. I would like to see it as broad as possible and spelled out even more.

The Scholarship Exchange Board will now go into demise under this new legislation and it would be appropriate for us to have a comprehensive review of the activities of that board. The board had to make an annual report but an annual report is not always made annually; the last annual report was made in 1983. Consequently, our understanding of how the scholarship exchange board operated, the extent of its operation, the funding that was available and the number of students covered by it is out of date. It would be useful to have a comprehensive and up-to-date review of the work of that board.

It is disappointing that only 800 Irish students and 300 US students availed of or were able to avail of this exchange scheme, either through shortage of funding, or availability of places in responding institutions in almost half a century, since 1957. Those numbers could and should have been greatly exceeded and we should inquire why this was the case. Were the terms of reference interpreted too narrowly or exchanges limited to certain institutions? Was the existence of these exchange facilities widely known to our post-graduate students? Perhaps there was a degree of elitism in the exchange scheme whereby a first class honours degree was required of the person doing post-graduate studies in order to avail of the scheme, not to talk of whether there was sufficient funding available so that body and soul could be kept together during the period of the exchange programme.

I do not find it convincing that only the brightest of our students should be recipients of a bi-national arrangement between the US and Ireland. If we are talking about mutual educational and cultural contact between two nations we must not pitch the level of that exchange so high that we deter ordinary men and women who could benefit from the exchange. All of our society would benefit from that extra leavening process if the exchange did not stop at a particular level, class, or whatever.

I would like to hear a statement from the Minister in relation to the breadth and balance of the proposed exchanges and whether we are going to find ourselves imposing limiting qualifications for limited institutions. Are the terms of reference available to the commission sufficiently open to enable them to interpret them in the best sense of the education and cultural arena? I am anxious to hear the Minister's response to that.

The purpose of the Bill is to enable student exchange for studying and research purposes and to enable teachers to be exchanged between the two countries. I would be interested to hear more about how the exchange of teachers is likely to take place. Are we talking about exchanges between third level lecturers and professors which take place to a degree already since there is mutual understanding between many universities in the States and here and many visiting professorships, or are we coming to the area I would be most concerned with, post-primary and primary education? Will there be scope for exchanges of teachers at primary and post-primary level? That would have beneficial educational value since there would be an exchanging of experiences throughout the entire education sector and not just at the top level.

I am not talking solely of post-graduate studies, professorships or lectureships, but that the benefits of the scheme should percolate down to students and teachers at second level and to teachers at primary level, so that a mutual exchange of educational methodology and ideas of professional competence takes place. If we add that extra dimension to the original Fulbright proposals where funds were available, we will have done a good day's work which will be of considerable mutual benefit to us all.

I would be interested to know how the former exchange scheme worked. The number of Irish students going to the United States exceeded these coming here by almost 3 to 1. Did those students return? Our brightest and best went, because they had first class honours to do post-graduate studies at certain designated institutions that were glad to receive them. How many of them were then sucked into the American system and assisted in building up that country and how many came back to Ireland to contribute to areas of education, science, industry and so on?

I would like the Minister to assure us that a limitation in terms of areas of research or study or other educational activities will not be imposed so that the broad humanities and the expressive arts will be covered as well as the sciences, industry, commerce, business studies, and so on. We are talking about broad educational and cultural exchange which should not be limited to programmes of cultural activity but extended to performers and performance arts such as drama or photography. The social sciences should also be included. I would be interested to see what the breadth and scope of the Bill is going to be and whether or not there is an improvement on the original 1957 Bill.

I am glad to see the commission being established in the proposed format as an independent commission as distinct from the former board who were under the strict operation of the Department of Foreign Affairs. I hope when the commission is established that it will go about its business without fear or favour or interference from either the Minister or from the United States Embassy. I understand that two officers of the United States Embassy foreign service establishment will be on the board though I am not sure for what purpose.

The commission exists for the purpose of choosing the best qualified people for this educational and cultural exchange and properly qualified people are required for that purpose. I am not sure about the status of those two officers from the foreign service or about the required qualifications of the rest of the commission.

There will be a chairperson, a deputy chairperson, a treasurer and an assistant treasurer which makes it top heavy with administrative people whereas it should be strong on qualified people in the educational and the cultural fields. I will be putting forward an amendment to section 3 (1) to install a representative of the teaching profession on the commission. This would be one way of ensuring that educational matters are represented and that there is a qualified education person on the board to examine applications.

I wonder how the exchanges are going to take place? Will they be between designated institutions, as obtained under the old system where universities were the designated institutions? That was unacceptable because it did not allow for the breadth of exchange one would have welcomed. Exchange does not always require institutional exchange so how is it going to take place? Will it be between universities, third level institutions, second level institutions, primary institutions, cultural institutions or is it to be broader than all that? I would be interested to know how participation in the exchange is going to take place, how it will be monitored and evaluated and how we might ensure that there is a regular review and an up-to-date examination of the operation.

The Department of Education are not involved at any level in this proposal; it is the concern of the Department of Foreign Affairs, the United States Embassy and the Department of Finance. I am not sure why the Department of Education are omitted from this arena because they would seem to have a role in the matter of educational exchanges. Perhaps the Minister would refer to this matter.

No development is possible without suitable funding. Ronald Reagan conferred one benefit on this country by indicating an increase in the levels of exchange and in funding for the exchange. Since only 1,100 people between the United States and Ireland availed of the previous scheme we would require substantial funding to make this new scheme worthwhile.

What level of funding will be made available? We may find the scheme operating with minimal funding since section 6 (2) states that all the liabilities of the scholarship exchange fund have to be discharged by the commission and shall, with the sanction of the Minister for Finance, be paid out of the funds of the Ireland/United States Educational Fund. We do not know what funds remain in the scholarship exchange fund. It may be in a debt situation and initial funds may go to pay those debts. Existing funds from the winding-up of the scholarship exchange fund should be transferred into the new Ireland/United States Educational Fund but the former board are in debt, the new commission should not be encumbered with debts it had not incurred itself and which would jeopardise its operation. I hope there are no liabilities to be paid.

I would love to see an enormous extension and development of the educational exchange system to our mutual benefit. I have the greatest admiration for the United States of America where I have travelled widely and found the people friendly and generous. Our policies differ on a number of issues, such as neutrality, and while some of us would disagree with some US policies nevertheless it is a very fine country. We each have much to learn and to gain from each other. We owe them a huge debt for receiving our forebears who left here in dire circumstances and who became part of that country; we will be forever grateful for that.

I would like to see a requirement for an annual report built into the new legislation which was not in the old legislation. An annual auditor's account is requested but not an annual report of the activities which we need. It is absolutely essential that there is adequate funding for the extension and expansion of the service. We need to know the selection procedures for those who are going to participate in the exchange programme and the extent of the terms of reference, not just the description given in the objectives of the agreement in the Bill and in the explanatory memorandum. Finally, we need to know the institutions and processes which will facilitate the exchanges. That would be useful information in dealing with this legislation.

Mr. Foley

I welcome the Bill and I congratulate the Minister on bringing it before the House. The Bill proposes to establish a commission for educational exchange between Ireland and the US. In general, it represents an important contribution to the cultural side of Ireland's external relationships and, in particular, it highlights the close ties between our two countries. They have a long and honourable history and have been defined in a number of ways both politically and economically. However, of equal importance, if not of greater importance, are those connections that derive from people.

This Bill is a continuation of many policy agreements with European countries. It will give the citizens of Ireland and America an opportunity to understand their traditions and culture better, especially in areas of educational research. The proposed commission will replace the Scholarship Exchange Board who have operated since 1957. Over the years this board, and their associated organisation, the Cultural Relations Committee, have worked very well. In 1988, the Government confirmed the importance of their work by doubling their funding. By establishing this commission the important work of educational research and cultural activities will be put on a sound and solid footing.

It is important for any Government not to confine themselves entirely to the relationships of politics and economics. It is also important to develop cultural diplomacy, not only for their own sake but for the benefit of the organisations and institutions which are doing excellent work in this area. In the United States one of the leading institutions of this kind is the American Cultural Institute. This organisation was founded in 1962 for the specific purpose of fostering an appreciation of Irish culture and traditions to give Americans a better opportunity to understand the traditions and culture of our country. For several years the organisation have been organising and sponsoring all types of Irish related cultural activities and research. They also organise and stock libraries with books on Irish history and culture.

The historical links between Ireland and the United States can never be denied. The cultural and educational links and the identities of the two countries are extremely close. This is the result of historical favours over the years, especially with regard to emigration. I am pleased to see an improvement in educational exchanges between this country and the United States. It is a tribute, not just to American education but to our own very high standard of education, of which we can be justly proud. It is fair to say that American students could travel to many countries in the world before they would find educational establishments as good as those here. We can be proud of the standard of education provided in our universities, regional colleges and so on. US citizens coming to Ireland can look forward to one of the finest educational environments in the world.

Down through the years Irish people have been extremely interested in education and our second level colleges, universities and regional colleges have produced some of the best students in the world. United States specialities, which are now available here, can be availed of by scholars leaving this country under exchange programmes. It is desirable that the Government, in conjunction with the US Government, seriously consider the possibility of extending the sphere of the influence to those not as highly qualified as those for whom the Bill is intended.

We are often critical of the United States but the present exchange scheme heralds another close link between us and America. We should pay tribute to the United States for the generosity it has shown to our students and young people who, over the years, have been fortunate to secure work there. The United States has from time to time, been the subject of a lot of criticism but we must give credit where it is due. We should thank the United States for getting this scheme underway with a donation of approximately $500,000 in 1957.

The functions of the new commission will be broadly similar to those of the Scholarship Exchange Board, namely, to finance studies and research by Irish and US students in the educational institutions of the other country and to select students, research scholars and professors for that purpose. The new commission will be more autonomous in management and administration than the existing board. That board consists of seven members, four appointed by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and three by the US Ambassador to Ireland. The chairman is appointed by the Minister who also provides the board secretariat and accommodation. The new commission will have eight members, four appointed by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and four by the US Ambassador. The chairman and treasurer will be elected by commission members. In addition, the commission will be empowered to provide their own accommodation and secretiariat.

The activities of the commission will be financed by income from the New Ireland United States educational fund to be established with a capital sum of £500,000 which will become available on the winding-up of the scholarship exchange fund. This new fund is expected to yield an annual income similar to its predecessor of, approximately, £55,000. In addition, the commission will receive direct funding from the United States. Since the 1984 announcement an annual sum of $127,000 has been provided by the US and administered by the Scholarship Exchange Board on an ad hoc basis. Overall, this is a tremendous achievement and there is a great future for our students. I have no doubt that we will see tremendous benefits and improvements in this scheme in the coming years. I commend the Bill to the House.

Mr. Ross

First, I should say that once upon a time when I was an Independent, I used to be very suspicious of Bills which received uniform approval across the House. I seem to have lost that suspicion——

Mr. Lydon

Objectivity.

Mr. Ross

——or objectivity in the last few weeks. Like the Government and the members of my new party I find no embarrassment in welcoming this Bill which I believe is also welcomed by the Independent benches. It is welcomed by all sides of the House because it establishes a principle of which we can all approve, even if it does not go as far as we would like it to go. My understanding of the reason for the consensus behind this Bill from all sides is because educational exchange is a broadening experience. It greatly benefits not only those who are participants in this scheme but also those who mingle with the people who travel abroad and here.

While we approve the principle we should also follow it through by advocating and pursuing a policy of educational exchange right through the educational system of Ireland. Whereas this Bill is very limited — it surprises me that legislation is required to do what it does — what we ought to do, as Senator Costello said, is make a resolution that the principle of educational exchange, not just to America but elsewhere, should be established and extended. I do not agree totally with Senator Costello that it should be limited to secondary and third level education. It should extend to primary education. It should not be limited to professors and teachers but extended as far as possible to primary, secondary and third level pupils and also to academics. This Bill only scratches the surface but it should be an opening and a clarion call to us to extend that principle right through the educational system. One of our problems, which is not a problem of our making but that of the good Lord, in whom all parties believe — even the Progressive Democrats——

Mr. Lydon

Just.

Mr. Ross

——just — is that we are a small island cut off from the mainland of Europe and, by definition, we will be insular in many of our attitudes. Our educational system will also be insular unless we take measures to remedy it. That is something of which we are not very conscious in modern times for many reasons, one of those reasons being that the educational system here is extremely good. It is of a high standard internationally in pure terms because successive Governments have quite rightly put such an extraordinary emphasis on education. There is no doubt that in Ireland over the last 20 or 30 years, compared with other countries, the standard of education, relatively, has risen dramatically. Our educational system in absolute terms is something of which we can be justifiably proud and for which all Governments are to be congratulated. There is no doubt that the enormous emphasis that has been put on education is sometimes expressed in the form that a maximum amount of money must be spent on every pupil here and in order to educate Irish people, which is the worthy principle behind it, we have excluded people from overseas. We have lost sight of the main object of education which is a broadening of the mind. It should not be difficult to arrange many more exchanges which would not affect Irish people and with very little, if any, cost to the Exchequer. I have not done any sums on this but, instinctively, I do not think it would mean a charge on the Exchequer.

The Government should examine education at all layers and introduce broad schemes for sending pupils abroad and for accepting people here, not just from the United States but from countries all over the world. In order to support that argument I must emphasise that I represent, despite my new allegiance, the graduates of a third level university, not all of whom totally approve of my new allegiance but I still speak for them.

In the sixties and seventies Trinity College, Dublin, was a very cosmopolitan — many would say too cosmopolitan — university. It contained a proportion of undergraduates from overseas, not just from the United Kingdom but from elsewhere, which was probably too high in terms of Governmental policy and too difficult to defend in terms of the absolute objective of educating Irish people. Many said at that time — with some justification — that Trinity College, Dublin, in particular, was excluding Irish people because it was taking in too many foreigners. There were other reasons also but that was a justifiable argument in some ways. It gave the university a reputation of being an élitist university, if nothing else. That has changed and, like any changes of that sort in 20 years, there are advantages and disadvantages.

The advantages are clear. More Irish people, particularly from Dublin, are being educated at third level and, as the university has expanded, more Irish people generally are being educated at third level. However, the disadvantages, which I hope this Bill will help to counter if only in a very small way, are that Trinity College, Dublin has become a far more provincial university because of the lack of an international intake. That occurred as a result of pressure from various Governments, fiscal pressure, financial constraints and the fair argument that no Irish university should be subsidising — as all university undergraduates are — the education of people from overseas. That is a fair argument but, unfortunately, it is to the detriment of the overall and broader education of third level students if they are educated almost exclusively, as they are here, with students with whom they spent their school days and do not mingle with people from outside Ireland.

As a result of this Bill, I hope the Government will look at exchanges in a more comprehensive way. Twenty years ago, to take a very relevant and potent example, and certainly pre-1969, Dublin University — I do not know about the NUI — had an enormous number of undergraduates and entrants from Northern Ireland. I am not sure of the figures — I do not think they were ever available — but approximately 20 per cent of the intake was from Northern Ireland at that time. Because of the pressures to which I have referred, that intake is down to less than 3 per cent. That, in itself, is a tragedy because universities in the South and universities in the North could easily, by exchange programmes of this sort, act as a catalyst and a centre for an exchange of views between Protestant and Catholic, Nationalist and Unionist, which they used to do but which they no longer do. If Queen's University and Dublin University or Coleraine University and UCD were to enter into an exchange programme similar, but obviously, not identical, to the one referred to in the Bill it would, in the long term, help to promote understanding between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It would lead to an exchange of views which, unfortunately, is lacking now because of the lack of communication between the two parts of this island.

The benefit of this scheme is not really what Irish people who participate in it will learn by going to the US, nor is it the detailed technical knowledge which those who come here from the US will get, it is the side benefits US students will get by living in Ireland for a certain time and the side benefits which Irish people will get by living in America and, indeed, the knock-on effect which this will have on the people with whom they mingle. That is the real educational benefit which this Bill will produce. It is not the immediate soaking up of knowledge students can pick up from books that is important but the actual soaking up of the culture in which they mingle, the lessons which they will bring back here and the knowledge they take abroad with them when they visit other countries. That is the great advantage of this particular principle.

I ask the Minister to consider — I have to admit I have not worked it out — whether this would, in fact, mean any great cost on the Exchequer and whether anybody would be deprived of education as a result of it. The numbers would remain the same, they would not increase or decrease. It would simply mean students from two universities exchanging positions. Would that mean any great cost to the Exchequer? I do not believe it would, provided an agreement is reached about the grants system in the two countries involved.

This should not be confined to Northern Ireland, although Northern Ireland must be the most obvious choice because of the lack of understanding between the North and the South. I also think that the pitiful numbers of undergraduates who come from Third World countries is one of the reasons there is so little understanding and sympathy in the western world for the Third World. While exchanges between Ireland and the Third World might cost us something small in terms of Exchequer funding it would be of great benefit to the international community, to ourselves and to our educational system. Therefore, we should promote such exchanges far more vigorously than we do at present.

Because I have a special interest in South Africa I suggest now that sanctions are crumbling and are acknowledged to be crumbling by the European Community, the Minister should take the initiative and develop a similar exchange between Ireland and South Africa. Undergraduates from Ireland should go there and find out what is really happening in the universities there. We should accept black and white people from South Africa in our universities so that we can find out what is going on there instead of hearing about the ignorant prejudices of both sides in the newspapers. That is what the Bill should seek to do. It is the seed this Bill has sown that interests me, not its specifics.

The agreement we have reached with the EC in relation to a liberal exchange of undergraduates between this country and the EC countries is stymied because of the rule that students who come from the European Community to Ireland have to pay the same fees as Irish students. Ireland benefits from that but our undergraduates who go to England, Scotland, Wales or any EC country pay no fees. Inhabitants of the UK pay no fees, but if they come here they have to pay similar fees to students who live here. I suppose that is meant to be equitable but it acts as a major deterrent which deprives us of the benefit of a large number of students from overseas. Our universities do not lack a high standard of education per se or a high level of technical or academic standards; they are extremely high and something of which we can be proud. However, we must promote an international dimension to prevent our universities and or third level educational system from becoming parochial by world standards. I welcome the Bill.

Mr. Lydon

At a first reading the Bill does not, perhaps, seem to be as important as some of the legislation which has gone through the House. However, on closer inspection one quickly acknowledges that it is important. In former times we sent abroad many scholars, some of whom, indeed, were saints, who brought learning to other countries of Europe. However, it is not all one-way traffic.

The Taoiseach on 20 May 1991 on the occasion of the announcement of the establishment of Ireland House at New York University in the Elmer Holmes Bobst Library of New York University said:

Irish people, perhaps even more than others, contribute to the culture of many countries, but are all always inestimably refreshed and invigorated by renewed contact with their own.

Where would we find more of our own than in the United States of America? Since 1957 about 800 Irish people have been awarded grants which have enabled them to study in the United States. Many obtained training and gained experience and have returned here to take up many top positions. During the same period about 300 citizens of that great democracy, the United States of America, have been awarded grants to come here and we welcome and acknowledge the contribution they have made to the work in our academic institutions. They have something to offer us and we have something to offer them.

I will refer again to the Taoiseach's speech because I believe it is germane to the Bill and I quote:

In proportion to its size, Ireland is a country of great cultural influence and achievement. The temptation for such a country might be to neglect the practical and the material in favour of intellectual and spiritual status. Indeed, we have been inclined to undervalue our very real achievements in the scientific and practical spheres.

The entrance to the building in which I go to work every day is flanked by two statues. One is of Rowan Hamilton, the discoverer of quaternions. The other is of Robert Boyle, the author of the famous Boyle's Law, without whom so much later scientific discovery would not have been possible.

The presence of these two great Irishmen reminds me not only that Irish people have distinguished themselves in mathematics, physics and chemistry and that the national genius is as fitted for science as it is for any other sphere, but also that the opposition between scientific values and humanistic or spiritual ones is often unreal. Rowan Hamilton was a friend of the great Irish novelist Maria Edge-worth and of the English romantic poets Robert Southey and William Wordsworth and wrote quite an amount of poetry himself; while Robert Boyle was deeply learned in Greek, Hebrew and Syriac and was instrumental in having the Bible translated into Irish.

In the matter of any possible opposition between practical and other systems of value in the educational sphere or elsewhere, I am a firm believer in having the best of both worlds and I am encouraged in my belief not only by the history of western civilisation since the Greeks, but by what can be regarded as the abolition of the barriers between the spiritual and the material in much contemporary scientific inquiry, most notably of course in contemporary physics.

The leaders of Europe after World War II looked into the future and envisaged a free and united Europe. They saw first a sort of economic foundation and out of this they expected the exchange of goods and services, a free flow of capital and, finally, the creation of conditions which would promote the free flow and exchange of people. There is a rough parallel between that and the establishment of Ireland House. As I already stated, for many years there has been a free flow of ideas between Ireland and the United States of America and this has been increasing in recent times.

The creation of an institute, like Ireland House, will provide a framework for our interchanges and will facilitate an expanded emphasis on Irish studies in the United States. In time I am sure we shall come to see the establishment of a Chair of Irish Studies which will provide a focus for the endeavours in this diverse field.

Too frequently we see exports from the United States which are inane in the extreme, for example, the hulahoop, the twist or Bart Simpson. However, one has to go to the United States to see just what that country can provide and I have had the opportunity of travelling widely in the US. Many beneficial developments originated in the United States in recent times. Many developments in science, physics and medicine originated there and, indeed, many great concepts, such as freedom of speech and access to information developed there also. Any mutual exchange, no matter how small the cross-fertilisation, can only be of benefit.

I agree with Senator Ross, that exchange programmes should extend to primary education because travel broadens the mind. I also believe that when one travels it serves to eradicate prejudice and to dispel preconceived notions. Irish people have been great travellers. It was with some regret that I learned recently that only 10 per cent of citizens of the United States possess passports. I hope that will change in the future.

I think the Bill will do what it sets out to do; to expand programmes that promote mutual understanding between the peoples of Ireland and the United States of America, through a wide exchange of knowledge and professional talents. It is for that reason I support the Bill and I hope it will get a speedy passage through the House. Even though it is not a major Bill, it is very important and will serve its purpose to some extent.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. Calleary)

May I offer my sincere thanks to all the Members of the Seanad who contributed to the Bill and who gave it such a warm welcome. I am pleased at the welcome the Bill has received because it will provide a valuable opportunity for increased academic and cultural exchanges with the United States. I would like to comment on some of the very interesting points that were made during the debate.

It may not be widely known, but there are Members of the Seanad who have been Fulbright scholars — at least two of them — and that has probably given the Seanad a much better insight that it might otherwise have had. I do not know why the Seanad has been so hard on the Department of Foreign Affairs. Many Senators wondered why the Bill was being handled by that Department and not by the Department of Education. Indeed, some felt it would be more appropriate to the Department of Education. The Bill arises from an international agreement, and international agreements are generally handled by the Department of Foreign Affairs. Also, responsibility for the 1957 Bill was taken by the Department of Foreign Affairs. It is, therefore, appropriate that this Department should deal with the replacement of that Act and the extension of the related programme.

The programme not only deals with academic exchanges but it also contains a major cultural element. Grants have been awarded and will be awarded for the individual and performing arts. Senator Costello made the point that grants should be awarded in the cultural area and I would like to assure him that it has been done. Generally, cultural relations with other countries are a matter for the Department of Foreign Affairs and for all these reasons it was felt appropriate that the Department should deal with this matter. As was acknowledged in the Seanad and in the Dáil, the existing scheme has been a very a successful one. It was operated under the aegis of the Department of Foreign Affairs — not under the control of the Department of Foreign Affairs but under the aegis of the Department.

Senator McDonald asked how much of the balance remaining in the scholarship exchange fund will be likely to be available for transfer to the new fund. This point was raised also by Senator Costello. Senator Costello's fears can be put aside. There is approximately £533,000 in the old fund, at present. Of course, on the winding-up of the old fund, any liabilities outstanding would have to be taken into account and discharged before the remaining moneys are transferred to the new fund. I am not in a position to say how much that will be until all the balances are transferred, but I would expect that the balance for transfer would not be significantly below the amount currently in the old fund.

Senator McDonald and Senator Jackman asked for details of the number of beneficiaries to date under the programme. I mentioned in my introductory speech that approximately 800 Irish citizens have benefited from awards under the programme and approximately 300 US citizens. The average annual cost of the awards would normally be in the region of £100,000 between US and Irish funding.

Senator Lanigan asked whether the scholarship exchange scheme is operated on a one-to-one basis. The answer to that is no. There is no rule laid down for the number of people granted awards from each country, or indeed for parity to operate in this regard.

Senator Lanigan asked why there were eight members on the commission rather than an uneven number of seven, as in the old committee. The reply is relevant to many other questions that were raised. The number eight was chosen for the new commission on the advice of the United States whose programme this is. That is a very important point, one that can be made time and time again. This programme is similar to one which the United States operate with 120 other countries. The United States have been operating this programme most successfully in a number of countries for many years and we can be confident that the number chosen for the new commission will operate satisfactorily.

Some Senators pointed to what they said were drawbacks to the Bill, what they saw as defects in it. I would like to point out to the House that the new arrangements are being introduced to bring our structures in line with the Fulbright structures operating in other countries.

Senator Lanigan also proposed that former participants should be able to contribute to the funding of this programme and asked if a mechanism existed for them to do so. I agree with Senator Lanigan. It would be most desirable if the commission could accept contributions from former participants and other sources. I am happy to say that this possibility is provided for under section 12 of the Bill. Senator Lanigan also asked if there was any possibility that Ireland would consider putting extra money into the fund in addition to the income from investments. It is not ruled out; we may decide to do that in the future. At present, we will be putting into the fund the income from the investments.

Senator Lanigan also asked whether Fulbright scholars had to pay the full amount an ordinary student would have to pay in American colleges. The question of what fees have to be paid to colleges is a matter normally arranged between the individual college and the student concerned. Sometimes funds are offered to the student by the college, sometimes certain fees are waived. It depends on the financial arrangements entered into by the individual colleges.

Senators asked about the new chairman. The terms of office of the commission members will be two years. I would expect that at the end of the first two years of the Commission there will be the appointment or reappointment of members to form a new commission and that the new chairman will be elected from among the members of the reconstituted commission.

Senator Costello and other Senators wondered if the members of the US diplomatic service who might be appointed to the new commission would be the most appropriate appointees, having regard to the work of the commission. I cannot preempt the decision of the US Government concerning its nominees to this commission. As regards a diplomatic category it would seem that the practice in other countries has been for the US to nominate those embassy officials with experience and responsibility for culture and educational affairs. I feel the Seanad can be well satisfied that all of the appointees to this commission both the Irish and the US side will be well qualified for their tasks. Many Senators complimented the commission on its work and that is an indication that people are satisfied with the work done. I do not think that the new commission will be found wanting either.

Senator Raftery was a little worried that the word "Fulbright" was not mentioned anywhere in the Bill and felt that, because of the tremendous contribution of former Senator Fulbright, it should be mentioned. It has not been the practice for the word "Fulbright" to appear, formally in agreements or in legislation relating to this programme. As I mentioned in my opening statement, the word "Fulbright" had become a common name given to this programme, because the legislation was introduced by Senator Fulbright. However, the legislative authority for this programme comes from the Mutual Educational and Cultural Exchange Act of 1961 which is the former title of the Act. As I said, the word "Fulbright" is not used in the formal text. I am sure Senator Raftery will agree with me that there is very little chance that the word "Fulbright" will be forgotten.

Senator Raftery and other Senators asked if the new commission will report. The commission will report annually to the Minister for Foreign Affairs and to the representative of the United States. Reports are in the Library up to 1989. They were placed there only after the matter was raised in the Dáil.

Senator Raftery questioned the imbalance in the exchanges between Irish citizens going to the United States and US citizens coming to Ireland. Perhaps I could explain that the practice under this programme to date has been to try to enrich and contribute to the further development of our third level institutions by bringing in a smaller number of very senior American scholars to lecture and carry out research here. On the Irish side, however, the focus has been on sending to the US as many junior academic lectures and post-graduates as possible to enable them to benefit from further training and development in their chosen disciplines. This has been the practice in the past. However, the new commission will, no doubt, have its own ideas on programmes for the future. I am sure it will be looking at and examining all options and possibilities with regard to the focus and the balance of the programme, a point that was stressed by Senator Costello. I am sure the Senator's fears in this matter will be unfounded and that the commission will ensure that there is a focus and balance in the programmes.

Senator Norris raised a number of points in relation to the equivalence of academic training and qualifications as between the United States and Ireland. This is a very important question. As I said, it is not possible to resolve this question here. I can assure Senator Norris that I will draw his very detailed comments to the attention of the new commission. I would like to stress that the commission will have the power under this Bill to recommend to the board of foreign scholarships the qualifications for the selection of participants in the programme. This should help to sort out any difficulties that might arise regarding qualifications. I will certainly bring Senator Norris' comments to the attention of the commission.

Senator Ross raised a number of important points in relation to other exchanges. While I can accept the importance of the points he raised, many of them do not come under the ambit of this Bill and are for another day.

Senator Norris also asked if I would indicate what would cause the Minister to remove a commission member from office. It is not only the Minister for Foreign Affairs who has the power to appoint and remove commission members. The representative of the United States also has this authority in relation to US appointees. This Bill, of course, reflects closely the international agreement with the United States signed in October 1988. It has not been the practice to spell out in agreements of this nature the reason for a person being removed from office. The Senator can be assured that such a removal would take place only for very serious reasons and would follow lengthy examination and consideration. This provision is also in section 12 of the 1957 Act. There has never been reason to use this provision since 1957 and we need not fear it will be used indiscriminately in the future.

Senator Norris and a number of other Senators were concerned that the appointment of the commission members should take place in consultation with the people principally and directly involved. May I assure the House that appointments to this new and very important commission will only be made following very careful and detailed consideration and indeed appropriate consultation.

The question of the commission's accommodation and staff was raised by Senator Norris and I agree with his comments. However, the provisions of the Bill in this area are designed, as I said before, to bring our structures into line with the usual Fulbright structures operating in other countries. It is normal for the Fulbright commission to have power, if it so wishes, to provide its own accommodation and secretariat. We can all feel confident that the new commission will operate sensibly in this regard and will wish to keep its administration costs to the minimum conducive to efficient management. This has been the experience with Fulbright commissions in other countries.

Senator Costello asked whether any first or second level teachers had benefited from the Scholarship Exchange Board. While I have not all the details, I am assured that some second level teachers have benefited from the exchange.

I would like to thank all the Senators who contributed to this very important Bill. Many of the points raised were important. Many of them, however, are outside the ambit of the Bill but they will be brought to the attention of the Minister. I would also like to thank the House for the way it has welcomed the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.