It is proposed to take Item No. 2 between 10.30 a.m. and 1 p.m., a sos between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. and Item No. 3 between 2 p.m. and 5 p.m. Notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders the proceedings on the Fourth and Fifth Stages of Item No. 2 and on the Third, Fourth and Fifth Stages of Item No. 3, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m. and 5 p.m., respectively, by one question in each case which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only Government amendments and business shall be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. as I mentioned.
Order of Business.
May I ask the Leader of the House to indicate what legislation it is proposed to bring in between now and the end of the session and if he could put to rest some of the rumours which have been circulating to the effect that it is intended that a number of education Bills which, effectively, destroy the input of councillors and local politicians into the education system are about to be brought in between now and the end of the session? I want to tell him that we would strenuously resist any such attempt.
The only way I can interpret the fancy words of the Leader of the House is that he is prepared to guillotine two Bills today. That would have to be opposed; there is no question about that. These two Bills have been well teased out and this is an inappropriate way to terminate them. I will not go into a long argument because we have been through this time and again but it is an unacceptable way to do business.
On the question referred to by Senator Manning, my understanding is that those two progressive pieces of educational legislation, which are giving autonomy to the governing bodies of the third level colleges, are due to be introduced shortly and I would like to hear confirmation of that, please.
Before I conclude, it would be appropriate for the House to mark the fact that since we last met there have been three further deaths in the North. I believe that the House, without going into long winded discussions, should note that fact, that we should show a consolidated front in support of a peaceful conclusion to the talks on the North and say again how much we abhor the wanton violence which has left three or four more families bereaved in the last 24 hours. I will be opposing the Order of Business on the basis of the two guillotines, and further guillotines in the next three or four weeks by the sound of things.
May I say how appalled I am at the terrible murders which have taken place in Northern Ireland; there has been the discovery of a fourth over the last 24 hours. It is appalling and I sincerely hope that the talks will be successful in the hope that this type of happening might be prevented.
On the Order of Business, the Leader has lost his nerve twice, and seems to have lost the run of himself completely. I hope the disease will not get worse before the end of the term although the prognosis is very disturbing. A large number of councils are very upset about the Education Bills and among the most upset and disturbed are, I understand, the Fianna Fáil councillors. I sincerely hope the Brennan and O'Rourke wings of Fianna Fáil do not get into a confrontation about the matter.
I join with what has been said by Senator O'Toole and Senator Upton about the tragic deaths in the North. I also oppose most vehemently the guillotining of these two Bills. We were told categorically on more than one occasion by the Leader that there would not be a guillotine on these Bills and, as Senator O'Toole said, that is all we can understand from the words we heard from the Leader.
May I again mention a matter I raised with the Leader, he seems terrified to mention the word subsidiarity. I said yesterday that the Taoiseach has said we must aim for a better understanding and clarification of the subsidiarity rule. I asked whether there is a better way of doing that than to have it discussed here in this House. The Leader does not even reply. I can only assume that he runs away from this issue as his party have done consistently.
You have made your point.
I, too, would like to ask the Leader of the House the plans for the introduction of the Dublin Institute of Technology and the Colleges Bills because at this stage what we are really discussing are four Bills, three Ministers and two versions of Minister Brennan's Bill. I wonder, even if we will be seeing the abolition of the vocational education committees. I am sorry if this Bill has to be rushed through the Seanad; it will not be rushed by our side of the House. This is the beginning of the silly season which will mean that effectively the vocational education committees will not know what has happened until they come back in September and then find they are redundant. I feel very strongly about this and I would like to know how much time is to be allocated to what I consider to be extremely comprehensive and important legislation.
The tragic events in Northern Ireland highlight what we were discussing here last night — the need for dialogue and the importance of getting Strand Two moving towards a peaceful solution. What the Leader of the House has said about the two Bills before us is disgraceful. Apparently the season of the guillotine has started, even though we are prepared to work longer hours. What we have done in relation to the Bill has been very positive and clearly the Minister has taken on board much of what has been said in the Seanad. It is disgraceful that the Leader should, on the one hand, announce that there will be no guillotine and on the other hand, announce two guillotines on the same day with, no doubt, further guillotines before the silly season is over.
In relation to the Education Bills, we are putting the cart before the horse. There is the suggestion that the Education Bills are to come before us while the Leader has not yet indicated to me, although I have asked him on two occasions, when we are going to have a debate on the Green Paper. The Green Paper concerns itself with the colleges and the regional colleges.
Could you please——
I would ask the Leader to give us an indication when we can have a debate on the Green Paper. We should have that debate prior to the debate on the colleges Bill.
Mr. Farrell
I, too, would like to be associated with the condemnation of the atrocities in Northern Ireland. It is disgraceful that the IRA should murder a person in the North and then bury them in Mullaghmore, Sligo, my home area.
There is something else I think is disgraceful. I hear people criticising the guillotine; an important Bill collapsed yesterday because nobody on the opposite side wanted to speak about it. It is the hypocrisy——
That is out of order.
It is not relevant.
It is a disgraceful allegation. Senator Farrell should not say that. It is outrageous.
It is not relevant to the order of business.
There are no Fianna Fáil Senators offering.
(Interruptions.)
This kind of interjection could mean the end of co-operation.
On a point of order, I would like to bring to your attention that Fianna Fáil have brought to my attention that we have been speaking too much on this Bill on more than one occasion.
It is not a relevant point of order, Senator O'Toole.
I, too, regret that the two Bills before us today are being brought to a very sharp conclusion. I will not say quick, because both have been debated in the House at length but the application of the guillotine is always to be regretted and I hope we will not see too much of that in the future.
Every Member abhors the tragedy in Northern Ireland yesterday. These three murders——
I accept the sentiments expressed by the House Senator McMahon and I know it is a matter of concern to you, but I would prefer shorter contributions on a matter like that.
I will be brief but you have allowed a little latitude.
I accept that.
It is particularly upsetting to many people when there was hope for a peace initiative in Northern Ireland. These murders brought to an end a long period without a death or a tragedy in the North, at a time when it would appear the political leaders are closer than we have seen for many a day. I hope every effort will be made on both sides of the Border to bring to justice those who are responsible for these terrible murders.
May I ask the Leader of the House if there has been a change in the way business is run and whether it is now the Opposition's job to keep the Government business going when there are not sufficient Government Senators to speak on their Bills going for the length of time ordained? Perhaps he could clarify the allegation Senator Farrell has made. I would be very interested if the Leader could respond specifically to that point. May I ask him also whether we will have the recently published Family Planning Bill before the recess?
May I express my abhorrence of the violence of yesterday and sympathise with the families involved. I hope, as has been stated on the other side, that the ongoing talks will come to a successful conclusion.
With regard to Senator Manning's question as to what legislation will be dealt with between now and the summer recess, it is intended to deal with the Regional and Technical Colleges Bill, the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill, the Interception of Postal Packages and Telecommunications Bill, the Housing Bill, the ICC Bill, the Family Planning Bill, and the Local Authority (Higher Education Grants) Bill.
With regard to today's Order of Business, as on Tuesday last the guillotine is only there in case it is needed. I am sure with the goodwill of the House it will not be needed on either Bill today.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be Items Nos. 2 and 3 and that, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the proceedings on the Fourth and Fifth Stages of Item 2 and on the Third, Fourth and Fifth Stages of Item 3, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1 p.m. and 5 p.m., respectively, by one question in each case which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only Government amendments; and that business shall be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 18; Níl, 6.
Tá
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Seán.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Conroy, Richard.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Foley, Denis.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Donovan, Denis A.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G. V.
Níl
- Costello, Joe.
- Harte, John.
- Hederman, Carmencita.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ryan, John.
- Upton, Pat.
Tellers: Tá, Senators E. Ryan and Fitzgerald; Níl, Senators O'Toole and Costello.
Question declared carried.
Order of Business agreed to.