It is proposed to take item 1 today. The first speaker for each group will speak for half an hour and there will be 20 minutes for each speak thereafter. The Minister will be called on to conclude not later than 4 p.m. There will be a sos. The House will sit next Tuesday to take Committee Stage of the Social Welfare Bill.
Order of Business.
I take it that we are dealing only with the Second Stage of the Bill today. Could the Leader explain the decision on water charges to all of us in the political system? This is appropriate because the Minister for Social Welfare will be in the House today. The first three callers to my office in Malahide this morning were old people who are expecting to get a knock on their doors and be given court orders. Could the Leader ask the Minister to explain this decision to those of us who must explain it on the ground?
They expected it after the 1991 local elections as well.
And after the 1985 local elections too.
I invite Senator Sherlock to fulfil the commitment to abolish the charges. We should have a debate on the financing of local government.
The Progressive Democrats proposed to abolish the Seanad——
I will reply to that if the Senator likes.
——never mind the water charges.
On Private Members' Business last night we discussed a Fianna Fáil motion on county roads. A number of Members were restricted in the amount of time they had to speak and other Members wished to speak but did not get the opportunity. Senator McGowan would have liked more time on the issue. The hare-brained idea of bringing people to court to recover sums of about £50 does not make economic sense.
It is still a stable Government.
I doubt if my remarks will lead to the destabilisation of the Government.
We should keep it together until we get pensions for teachers.
Democratic Left should change its name to Democratic Right.
The Government must be aware that local authorities would be very sensitive to the difficulties some people experience in paying charges. There is all the difference in the world between those who cannot pay and those who will not pay.
We are not having a debate on water charges at this time. Please put your question to the Leader.
The question to the Leader is to ask for a debate on the financing of local government and water charges in particular.
I rise to support the call by the Fianna Fáil Leader in the House regarding the confusion in the minds of some people regarding water charges. There should be a further statement. We have to differentiate between people who would normally wish to pay their water rates and a category of people on welfare, old age and disability pensions who traditionally, and rightly, get waivers. They are confused because they are worried that decisions will now be taken after a court case.
We are not having such a debate on the Order of Business. Do you have a question for the Leader?
There has been a very clear statement on this.
There has been a clear statement by the Minister for the Environment.
The question is to ask for a further statement explaining this matter because there is genuine public concern, particularly among the aged. I also wish to ask when we are likely to have a response from the Minister for Health on items 11 and 12. These matters have been raised on the floor of the House and will continue to be raised because they are important. One concerns the implementation of all sections of the Child Care Act, 1991.
That is a Fianna Fáil motion, why not take it?
Yes, why not take it?
The Leader of the House said some time ago that it would be possible for the Minister for Health to come in and talk about health matters generally. If he were to do that, items like Nos. 11 and 12 could be taken under such a heading. I would certainly go along with that type of approach if the Leader would agree to it.
The Leader has already indicated to me that non-Government Motion No. 6 would be taken in Government time. This motion states:
That Seanad Éireann calls on the Government to outline the position in relation to all aspects of the special funding which is now available to the Border counties through the International Fund for Ireland, INTERREG and the Delors Package.
The Leader was sincere and generous when he said that that motion would be taken in Government time and I would ask that serious consideration would now be given to doing that.
Can the Leader clarify the new water charges situation? Does it mean that an old age pensioner of 84, living in a St. Vincent de Paul house, who pays her reduced water rates and is left with a sum of around £40, will find herself in court?
No.
The answer is no.
You are only out to frighten people.
I am sure that the Leader will reply.
Why is there a rash of concern coming from all over the place?
Senator McGowan, would you address the Chair, please. Senator McGowan without interruption.
I asked a very simple, straightforward question with a good deal of sincerity.
That is not straightforward.
In my county we have a number of St. Vincent de Paul houses. After the water rate is reduced——
We are not discussing water rates this morning. I am sure that the Leader will reply to a debate on that matter.
I am only asking if this 84 year old lady will have to go to court, or will Donegal County Council be allowed discretion to rub it out and forget about it. It is important to ask this question because I realise that the Government is in a bit of difficulty.
Which Government is that now?
Senator McGowan, you have created a lot of confusion and I have to say again that it is irrelevant to the Order of Business. I call on Senator Henry and I sincerely hope that she has something to say that is relevant to the Order of Business.
Recently some Irish Members of the European Parliament showed a very proper interest in all things French and, indeed, in the offshore islands.
That is not relevant to the Order of Business either, I can assure you.
I would like to suggest to the Leader of the House that the Seanad should also show an interest in France.
You should also go.
You are not going there.
I must declare an interest here because an ancestor of mine, Lieutenant Rowlette, landed with General Humbert. Unfortunately, he got delayed by a little local difficulty in Aughrim and never made it to the boat in Killala to get back to France.
He could have lost his head.
Senator Henry, this is not in any section of the Social Welfare Bill, I can tell you.
I am the second of his descendants to be in this House, a Chathaoirligh.
History.
May I ask the Leader what plans there are for Seanad Éireann to be involved in the 1798 celebrations? We could go on a fact finding mission quite soon. France is near enough, so there is no need to go to the offshore islands. Could he bring it up at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges?
After the failure earlier this week of European Agriculture Ministers to come up with proposals to deal with the problem of live cattle exports, our Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry indicated that he would be introducing national proposals to deal with the situation. Can the Leader of the House indicate whether the Minister for Agriculture. Food and Forestry could give the House details of the proposals he has in mind to deal with this situation? The President of the IFA has already stated publicly that the incomes of up to 100,000 farmers could be threatened by the developments that are taking place on this issue. Can the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry indicate clearly how he proposes to deal with the issue?
A number of questions were raised about the water rates issue. From my reading of it, the whole matter has been simply, comprehensively and clearly explained. However, I will ask the Minister for Social Welfare to address the issues in his speech today and I am sure that he will be happy to do so.
Senator Dardis raised the question of the financing of local government. This is an important issue and if he can find some formula under which to debate it, probably after Easter, I would be glad to accommodate him. It is an issue of concern to all Members of the House.
The health issue mentioned by Senator Finneran raises a problem for the House itself because, unlike the Lower House, we do not have Estimate debates where broad issues can be discussed. We have to try to find slots for debates instead. As a health debate would be important, I will try to find some way of having statements on health sometime after Easter to cover the range of such issues raised recently by Senators.
As regards Senator McGowan's point, I did say that that motion should be given Government time. Consequently, I will arrange that it does get Government time fairly soon after Easter.
I would remind Senator Henry that the last time the Independent Group had problems about who they would send to a certain place, it landed us all in a bit of a mess. I am sure that if we are going to commemorate 1798 somewhere outside the country, the Independent Group will perhaps be clear as to who they are going to send. As the Senator knows, the Minister of State, Deputy Avril Doyle, is co-ordinating plans — not to re-enact 1798 — but to commemorate it. I will ask her if this House can somehow be involved in the commemoration ceremonies.
As regards Senator Daly's point, I will communicate with the Minister for Agriculture. He has not yet been to this House as Minister, so it might be a good occasion on which to welcome him.
May I confirm that the sos is between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m.? It was mentioned.
Order of Business agreed to.