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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 2 Nov 1995

Vol. 145 No. 2

Education: Statements.

I thank the House for the honour and opportunity to discuss an issue that we all recognise as central to the economic, social and cultural wellbeing of our children, our fellow citizens and our country as a whole — the subject of education. During my time as Minister for Education, I have come to appreciate at first hand the sheer scale and complexity of our education system, and the complex ways in which the system is geared towards meeting the needs of our society.

There is, of course, a heavy responsibility on the Government to ensure that available resources within the educational system are properly aligned towards meeting the needs of students and society. Change, renewal and reform must be ongoing. There must be a continual input of energy on the part of all of the education partners if the system is to retain its relevance and if young people are to be properly equipped with the capabilities and skills they need to enhance their own personal development and to meet the needs of society in all its rich dimensions.

By mobilising all the talents and energies within our education system, I am confident that we can bring about meaningful changes for the betterment of all our people and students of all ages in a lifetime of learning. At this time of unprecedented change in our education system, it is worthwhile to take stock of the positive achievements to date. This year saw the publication of Charting our Education Future, the Government's White Paper on Education, in which principles and priorities are clearly identified and in which the agenda for further progress in reforming our education system is laid out. Our priority — increasing the standards of education available to all sections of the community — underlies all the programmes now under way in my Department.

It is appropriate to begin our discussion with the primary education sector which is the bedrock upon which the education system is built. The primary sector plays a major role in determining children's life chances and the benefits derived at this level are key determinants of the extent to which the individual citizen participates in society throughout her or his lifetime.

Since my appointment as Minister for Education, I have made significant improvements in the primary school sector, giving it a new focus in line with the principles set out in the White Paper. Among the most important achievements are improved pupil-teacher ratios, significant reductions in maximum class size guidelines, increased capitation grants, increased grants for school books to assist needy pupils and a massive investment in capital for the improvement of school buildings. However, there can never be complacency about the current state of our education system. Change and renewal must be ongoing and the White Paper lists several priorities for further progress in the primary sector.

There is the new expanded role for parents which incorporates in a real way the constitutional position of parents as the first educators of their children. A renewed emphasis will be placed on literacy and numeracy in primary schools to help tackle all serious numeracy and literacy problems in early primary education. The revised primary school curriculum being prepared by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, building on the significant strengths of the existing curriculum, will put in place a rich and diversified programme to provide children with the widest possible range of educational experiences.

Since my appointment as Minister for Education I have attached a particular priority to addressing the needs of children with disabilities and children from disadvantaged backgrounds. The report of the special education review committee in 1993 represented the most comprehensive examination of the special needs area ever undertaken in this State. The findings of that committee provide a comprehensive agenda for the future. While the measures set out in the While Paper in relation to special educational needs provide the framework for the future, significant progress has already been made on many fronts. This includes significant increases in the number of special resource teachers and the rates of special capitation funding to special schools and schools with special classes.

We all know that the earlier the intervention to address the educational effects of disadvantage the better. I have initiated the Early Start pre-school project as a pilot project in selected areas of disadvantage to introduce young children to an educational programme which will enhance their overall development, prevent school failure and offset the effects of social disadvantage. The Early Start service is now available in 40 locations. The project is a well researched and high quality intervention which will help the Government in its drive to combat educational disadvantage.

Arrangements are in place for the introduction of a programme of relationships and sexuality education in all our schools. A number of groups, representative of the partners in education, are currently working on the details of the implementation of this programme.

The education system is currently undergoing major reform, involving extensive curriculum development and restructuring. Bringing these initiatives to fruition depends on supporting teachers in managing change and facilitating their professional and personal development. The White Paper lays significant emphasis upon providing appropriate in-career training and development. The Government is committed to an expenditure of almost £40 million on in-career training over the period 1994-99 for first and second level teachers, and special training programmes will also be developed for parents and boards of management.

Education objectives at second level seek to promote the right of each student to full and equal access, participation and benefit from educational provision, in accordance with each student's ability. The junior cycle programme seeks to extend and deepen the quality of students' educational experience. The availability of the option of a three year senior cycle for all students entering second level education from 1994 onwards and the restructuring of the senior cycle to cater more effectively for the needs and aptitudes of all students provide the framework for achieving this objective.

Among the achievements made in providing for high quality second level education over the past few years are increased per capita school grants; special grants for pupils in special classes; increased provision for the free book scheme for needy pupils; major improvements in pupil teacher ratios and equipment grants for disabled pupils. Major reforms are underway in the second level curriculum, including the restructuring of the senior cycle.

In keeping with the other developments taking place, such as the greater devolution of authority to boards of management and education boards and the increased professionalism of school staff, a new system of inspection is being developed by my Department's inspectorate. Inspection in the future will focus on the work and management of the school in its totality. The underlying purpose will be to improve the quality of education in schools and, in addition, to provide appropriate information to the community served by the school, to school management and to the regional and central authorities.

As promised in the White Paper, I propose to bring forward legislation dealing with education boards as a matter of priority. This will put administration of the education system at primary and second levels on a modern footing.

The present system for central administration of schools originates from a time when national schools were first established in the last century. Given the scale, complexity and maturity of our education system in the 1990s, there is now the opportunity of looking afresh at the administrative arrangements with a view to optimising the flexibility, quality, relevance and accountability of the educational system. The demands for increased accountability from the system, deriving from the foregoing considerations, and the commensurate increase in resources devoted to education, are placing severe strains on an administrative model designed for another time, when education was but a modest undertaking for the State.

The potential benefits of the regionalised approach to education provision have come to be recognised by many of the major partners in education. A round table discussion among all the partners in education advanced the process of ensuring that education boards will contribute to better educational provision across the following broad areas: enhancing quality of education; facilitating an effective partnership among all those with an interest in education at national, regional and community level; realising national objectives in education, such as equality of access and relevance to the needs of the community in an effective way; eliciting a broad level of acceptance from those within the regional remit of the board and reflecting the diversity of the school system; promoting transparency in education, particularly in regard to resource allocation; and enhancing public accountability.

In addition, education boards will contribute in a crucial way to the development of the further and adult education sectors. These sectors are now recognised, nationally and internationally, as key contributors to social and economic well being.

I am now developing the education board proposals as a matter of priority, in accordance with the policy direction set out in the White Paper, so that the benefits of the reformed arrangements can be felt at the earliest possible date. I look forward to the continued co-operation of all the partners in education in progressing this important initiative.

The establishment of Teastas, the Irish National Certification Authority, represents a major commitment by the Government in its efforts to ensure a coherent framework which will facilitate access and progression by individuals through a structured system of graded educational and training qualifications. It will allow progression from basic attainments and qualifications, right up to advanced degree level.

The establishment of Teastas is evidence of the Government's commitment to the facilitation of life long learning. Life long learning should focus on the learning opportunities and processes of the individual. The European year for life long learning to which Ireland, during its Presidency in particular, will make a significant contribution, will aim to mobilise all the forces which will contribute to providing our citizens with the education and training to help them find their place in the new world that is evolving and to forge their individual destinies during the course of their lives.

The past 30 years has seen an extraordinary growth in higher education in Ireland. Thirty years ago only one student in ten proceeded to higher education, then provided solely by the university sector. Now, by contrast, approximately two thirds of leaving certificate students proceed to further or higher education. Of these, one third enter the universities, one third enter the regional technical colleges and one third enter further education, mainly post leaving certificate courses.

I have taken a number of steps since coming into office to provide more places, more buildings and more facilities in all third level institutions. Thus, funding of the universities since I became Minister for Education has increased from £137 million to £179 million, an increase of more than one third in three years. Even more dramatic has been the increase in grants for the running of the regional technical colleges, up from £86 to £132 million since I came into office, an increase of more than one half.

This increased funding has facilitated a major expansion in the number of third level places. In the universities, since I came into office, the numbers have risen from 48,000 to some 56,4000, an increase of more than one sixth. In the regional technical colleges, the numbers have increased from 32,000 to some 37,800, again an increase of more than one sixth. In the last three years alone, some 14,200 additional third level places have become available to our young people.

In addition to these places, I announced in mid-September the provision of a further 6,200 places in the university sector over the next five years. These places will be allocated among the seven universities and will be funded by a combination of public and private funding. This is the first time that public and private funding has been used in this way and it marks a new departure for third level capital development.

Increases in recurrent grants have been matched by increases in capital funding. Under the 1994-99 national plan, more than £120 million, at 1994 prices, will be spent on improved facilities and buildings in third level institutions. The programme is targeted at 23 separate third level institutions and I am pleased to say that a number of the new projects, involving an expenditure of approximately £36 million in 1995, have already been commenced and others are at an advanced stage of planning.

The year 1995 marks a watershed in the development of higher education. For the first time, we join the mainstream of European education in having higher education available to full-time undergraduates without payment of tuition fees. This is an achievement of extraordinary significance and brings higher education centre stage. It demonstrates in the clearest way possible that higher education is for all, without barriers of income, social status or family background.

The abolition of full-time undergraduate tuition fees has been achieved at minimal cost to the State by linking it with abolition of covenant tax relief. The highly regressive covenant tax relief which meant that high earners gained more has been replaced by the abolition of tuition fees.

In addressing the issue of legislation for universities the White Paper notes the conclusion of the report on the National Education Convention that "third level institutions are difficult to manage and require constant reappraisal of management structures and functions". It also refers to the commitment to a broadening of the composition of the governing bodies of universities which arises from the Government's decisions on the implementation of the Culliton and Moriarty reports. The aim of this broadening of representation is to provide wider representation from society and the economy and for staff and students.

There is also a commitment to gender balance in the composition of the governing bodies. The White Paper makes a commitment to bring forward legislation concerning the composition of governing bodies, the restructuring of the National University of Ireland and more comprehensive provisions relating to autonomy and accountability, diversity and enhancement of developmental roles.

There are no proposals to interfere with the academic freedom of the universities. On the contrary, the legislation as proposed would strengthen academic freedom by giving specific statutory expression to it in the principles underlying the legislation. The principle of proper institutional autonomy is also given expression in the principles. The universities would be free to run their affairs as they see fit, within broad budgetary and staffing constraints.

The Department has engaged in extensive consultation with the university heads, in their personal capacities, in preparing the draft Universities Bill. Several potential areas of disagreement have been resolved and this aspect of the consultative process is not yet complete. This will be followed by the publication of a position paper.

I also established the steering committee on the future development of higher education to advise me in relation to the development of the sector well into the next century. I have secured Government approval for a joint public and private sector funded capital programme to provide an additional 6,200 places over the next five years.

Ireland's development is now linked in an integral way with the development of Europe. This poses no threat to our national identity. Rather, it offers significant opportunities for growth and development in the broader European context. In the education sector, Ireland's commitment to the European ideal is manifested in its active participation in a wide range of European education programmes and its development partnership with the European Union, through the Structural Funds, designed to promote economic and social development. The Community Support Framework, through the operational programmes for human resources development, tourism, industrial development and local, urban and rural development, provides for the highest ever commitment to multi-annual funding in the education sector — over £1,500 million between 1995 and 1999.

I have touched on a number of important areas but time does not allow the in-depth treatment which each topic requires. Indeed, each topic could be the subject of a full debate in itself, as indeed could other topics which I have only referred to briefly.

As Minister for Education, my record demonstrates a commitment to partnership and consensus-seeking in the formulation and implementation of education policy. The White Paper sets out key principles which should underpin policy. I am happy to submit my policy to the test of these principles — equality, quality, pluralism, partnership and accountability. I thank Members for their attention and look forward to the debate.

I am pleased to see the Minister as I have been campaigning for the past couple of months to have her back in the Chamber.

I have had many discussions about the White Paper in staff rooms throughout the country and with many of my teacher friends. The White Paper is a great document for discussion. However, when we got down to the practicalities of the many policies the Minister proposes to implement in the future, I had great difficulty in seeing how they would work. I wish to focus on one area because I have only ten minutes in which to say all that must be said. I will ask hard, factual questions that will require hard answers.

The Minister proposes to disband the vocational education committee system and introduce a new structure. In the White Paper she talked about devolution and decentralisation. When I read the document further I found it very vague. The Minister proposes to introduce regional education boards. When I examined that proposal I looked at the south-east region which comprises five counties: Carlow, Kilkenny, Waterford, Wexford and south Tipperary. The Minister says that regional education boards will be accountable and accessible. They will cover over 300 schools and, in some cases, 600 schools.

I do not understand how the Minister could call that structure accountable. It is a Civil Service model; it has nothing to do with teachers and buildings. The Minister is throwing out a structure — the vocational education committee system — that has existed since 1932 and served this country well. The Dublin Institute of Technology and the regional technical colleges sprang from that system and are modelled on the vocational education committee structure. The Minister is now saying that they do not work, that we should throw them out and bring in a new system. I ask the Minister not to fix it if it is not broken. It is a cliché but appropriate. The vocational education committee structure works. I know that because I work within the system.

The Minister says that she wishes to change the model and introduce a large structure which I do not think will be accessible or accountable. Let us take the two examples of a regional education board in Dublin with 300 schools and a similar board in the west with 613 schools. Is it the plan to close the schools in the west? Is the plan to cut down on our rural life another example of "the last person out can put out the light"? That appears to be the way forward in rural development.

I have grave reservations about the regional education boards. I cannot understand why the Minister does not take soundings again and realise that perhaps local education authorities are the way forward. People identify with local concepts. They understand how the composition of local education authorities work. I welcome the enhanced role of parents in education. How will the composition of parents be represented on these boards? Surely the way forward is to have a local education authority. Our culture is to deal with things locally. We reflect the needs of the people on a local basis.

I ask the Minister to reconsider her views on the regional education boards. They will not work. The people do not understand them; they are too daunting. Where will each headquarters be located? Will Waterford be the location for the south-east? Will Galway be the headquarters for Mayo? The regional education boards will not work in practical terms. I ask the Minister to answer the points I have raised on that issue.

The Minister is introducing many changes to the second level education system. Is it any wonder that the teachers' morale is at an all time low? The Minister sent out a circular in September about time spent in the school. Part-time teachers' hours are to be cut according to a new circular from 800 down to 735 hours. I do not know if the Minister understands what that means to the management of the school. In smaller schools it will mean larger classes. The remedial teacher will have to be pulled out and brought into a class which will necessitate a tighter management structure. If teachers are ill, who will take over if there is no part-time teacher available? I am not so sure the Minister got that one right either, judging by the unrest it created in staff rooms at the beginning of September.

I wish to give an example of the volume of change the Minister has introduced to the second level system. In the leaving certificate programme she has brought in three new courses. A new curriculum is being devised for the traditional leaving certificate. The Minister has introduced the leaving certificate applied programme and the leaving certificate vocational programme. She has introduced more changes in relation to transition years. The leaving certificate applied programme was a pilot scheme and yet in-service training was necessary in order to become familiar with the course. The course started in September and teachers are still only familiarising themselves with some aspects of it. I am not knocking the concept; the course is ideally suited for students who were not served well by the traditional leaving certificate. I do not want anybody to think that I do not think it is a good concept.

I am a guidance councillor. Last week a parent asked me whether their child would have access to third level education having done the leaving certificate applied programme. I did some research and discovered that the child will not. The parent asked me what kind of a certificate that child would get at the end of the year, whether it would be a traditional leaving certificate or whether it would have a different tag on it so that when two people are going for interview the one who has the LCAP will have a different status from the one who has the ordinary leaving certificate. We did not market the new leaving certificate applied programme very well. Parents do not understand it, I do not understand it, the pupils are uneasy with it. Teachers want to teach it because there are lots of very good things about that course for students who cannot go through the normal channels in education. The Minister has not got that right and it is time she did.

Such is the volume of change that other concepts are being introduced. We have the NCEA, the NCBA, the NCCA and TEASTAS, another umbrella organisation dealing with the overall certification — of what, I do not know. Another body has been constituted which is to organise and develop the VTOS, the PLCs, Youthreach — the mind boggles.

Morale is low among teachers. The Civil Service and the Department of Education are throwing out forms to them. So much change is taking place that they cannot teach and the Minister is saying they must have more accountability. Hard answers are needed in relation to the volume of change. We welcome change. Teachers want to do their work and nurture the interaction that exists between the teacher and the student. They want the resources to be able to do so but they are educators, not form fillers.

I welcome the Minister to the House. It is nice to see her here. She is showing full and proper respect for the House in the course of her very busy schedule. We will have further discussions over the next couple of weeks about education and in particular on the furore that has developed regarding the Minister's proposals for the management of the university sector. It is surprising and somewhat illogical that a furore has developed because this whole process was flagged long ago when we discussed the White Paper. The procedures the Minister is following were clearly indicated on page 104 of the White Paper.

The Leader of the House has promised a discussion within three weeks. If the consultative process is not finished in three weeks it is a waste of time having a discussion on it, but the Minister is doing all the right things in that regard. She has sent out a consultative document which is being examined. She is hearing the views of the people involved and until such time as those views have been formulated and communicated to the Minister, she will not proceed to phase two, which is finalising the legislation.

It is generally agreed that the university sector has to be linked more closely with the various elements of society and interact more with the economy. It must offer a leadership role, which it is doing, but to make that leadership role more effective the governing body should be changed. What the Minister is proposing is more or less what was agreed in discussions she had with various people before the White Paper was produced and in my view that linking is essential.

We started a huge investment in education in the mid-1960s and we can be proud of the achievements, particularly the economic achievements, which followed from that. We cannot ever stand still; this process of evolution which the Minister is undertaking is essential. We must have one eye on how our competing economies are getting on as well. Unless we continue to evolve our education system and our economy and add value to it in every possible way we will be losers in the long term. Any discussion on education these days should also focus on the progress the economy is making. Research and development was slow to take off, possibly because until about 1970 the universities here did not pay much attention to research. That was probably because we inherited a British system which was basically a teaching system. The universities have adapted well and are now working very hard at research but there is still room for improvement.

There is a great need for further investment in research and development by both the State and private companies right across the economy. According to figures for research in the developed world we are well down the scale and we are probably still investing under 1 per cent of GNP where other countries are investing three times that. That, of course, puts a drag on our economy because many of our workers tend to be working in low added value areas and this is reflected in relatively low productivity levels vis-à-vis other economies. This is why it is important for the education process to continually reexamine itself and its relevance to what we are seeking to achieve as a nation and, in the light of this evaluation, we should make whatever changes we can. This is an important year in Irish education.

The decision of the Minister and the Government to introduce free third level education results in greater equity. The old system was very inequitable. Many families on relatively low incomes did not qualify for grants. They found it impossible to make a continuing commitment to the education of their children because they simply did not have the money. The covenant system did not help them much. These families are now in the position where their children will have a much better chance of attending third level than they had previously and it is likely that their children will be able to remain in third level longer. This initiative has made third level much more attractive for the full body of Irish students. This is important for students and it will pay rich dividends to the economy in future years. When the decision is fully implemented next year it will ease the burden on many parents and it has met with general acceptance throughout the community.

At primary and post-primary levels the previous Government started the ball rolling and this work has been continued. There has been increased investment in primary and secondary education. We could spend a long time pointing out areas in primary and post-primary levels which need large injections of personnel and funding. One such area is the psychological service. Although the Minister did not have time to refer to it, she has plans for the development of this service.

We should consider the complexity of what happens in the classroom and the difficulties teachers have to contend with on a daily basis at a time when parents have put enormous store on education for their children. Many of us do not appreciate and understand the complexity of teaching a group of 25 to 30 pupils in national schools. Difficulties arise for teachers when they teach classes with dyslexic students, slow learners, pupils with hearing and sight problems and emotionally disturbed pupils. When we consider the difficulties teachers have in trying to deal with such an incredible mix of problems in the same classroom, we should come to the conclusion that teachers need the maximum level of service we can give them.

They need the assistance of remedial teachers and psychological support, which we all agree are inadequate at this stage. We hope the Minister has proposals to improve these service over the coming years. There are many problems which need to be considered. The pupil-teacher ratio has been reduced but it must be further reduced. The remedial and psychological services must be developed. The conditions of some schools leave much to be desired. The school where I taught was built for 150 students but now caters for almost 500. I ask the Minister to look at the file on this school and see what she can do for it.

I am happy that the education system is examining itself with a view to improving itself and delivering a much better service. I look forward to further discussions on education in future.

I congratulate Senator Cotter on the broad general principle of how things might affect his own constituency. I welcome the outlining by the Minister of her views. The White Paper must be seen as a positive statement indicating the way forward for Irish education. It is a comprehensive document which could and should influence education for many years to come but the level of that influence will be determined by the level of resources which Governments are prepared to invest in the implementation of the recommendations. The White Paper combines vision, change and courage. It also contains many things which are incorrect and it will take courage to change them. However, vision without provision will prohibit development. Provision for vision will be a necessary part of the Minister's job and that of her successors. Some 95 per cent of what is contained in the White Paper is progressive, is the result of years of consultation and is welcome. Any differences we have can be sorted out through negotiations.

I wish to make a substantial point on the question of school ethos. The Minister mentioned the need for and importance of diversity and we all support this. I ask her to give a clear commitment, in addition to her commitment to diversity and multi-denominational schools, that there will also be a place in primary education for non-denominational schools. It is extraordinary that, in a pluralist society, it is impossible to get recognition for a primary school which is not denominational. Multi-denominational schools exist because people have been unable to establish non-denominational schools.

I ask the Minister to give a commitment to make it clear that it is in order for school patrons or authorities to lease school buildings. I am not talking about the situation in years to come when the State, as is proposed in the White Paper, will buy all school buildings and lease them to the people operating them. As and from now it should be possible for people with the numbers of pupils required to establish schools to lease buildings. Leasing is common in the private sector, industry and commercial life. It is a peculiarly Irish notion that people have to own the buildings in which they operate. This should not be necessary; the leasing of appropriate buildings should also be acceptable.

There is a great deal about the curriculum in the White Paper. The Minister has mentioned time and again things which need to be added to the curriculum. There are proposals for the inclusion of new programmes on arts, science, European awareness, health and well being as well as a revised Irish language curriculum. I agree with all these proposals but I cannot see how they can be implemented without overloading the curriculum. This mistake was made in England, Wales and, to a lesser extent, in Northern Ireland. We have closely examined the curriculum in Northern Ireland. I appeal to the Minister to be wary of overloading the curriculum. So many subjects could be added with the result that we would become jacks of all trades without achieving anything.

There is a way by which this problem can be approached and I ask the Minister to consider it. We need a research and development team working on the curriculum to ensure that the areas I have mentioned can be introduced through a cross curricular approach, which would mean a merging or integration of various subject areas. This is complicated, complex and difficult. It could be done by having a permanent research and development team in the curricular area which would ensure the curriculum is constantly monitored and modified as appropriate. The problem of overcrowding and overloading the curriculum needs to be dealt with by means of a professional approach involving a permanent research and development team which would work to introduce cross curricular themes and the integration of subjects. This would be different from the work now being done by the curricular unit; it would be particular and specialist.

The Minister will have to obtain money from the Government for the implementation of the long list of recommendations of the committee on special education. On behalf of children who are the focus of special education, teachers say that there should be available to every parent of a child with special needs a clear statement outlining that child's educational needs. That statement should identify the nature of the special education required and an appropriate placement. That is the only way to move forward when dealing with integration and handicapped or disabled children. This will require grasping the nettle and obtaining finance, but it is the only way it can be done.

I have given a lot of consideration to assessment, which is probably the most difficult issue for a teacher. I hope the Minister agrees that this issue has not yet been concluded. It must be clearly understood that assessment is part of a teacher's work. The requirement that assessments should be carried out at the end of first and fifth years at primary level is almost a non sequitur in the context of professional thinking on the subject. Teachers must continue to assess their pupils on a regular and structured basis. Problems arise, however, when the results of assessment become the basis on which judgments are made on pupils. Assessment is important to the teacher as a diagnostic tool to identify learning and teaching problems. Assessment, however, can only be formative; it should be part of what helps the teacher to form an opinion on the child. It can only be one aspect of the professional judgment and the teacher will then arrive, through a formative process, at a broader judgment.

The successful teacher — I am on shaky ground here as regards convincing many of my colleagues about this — must build a profile of the child by making judicious use of standardised tests and by combining informal assessment and professional judgment and knowledge of the child's background. This must be done without making disproportionate claims on class time and activities. I appeal to the Minister not to allow that to happen. I visited schools in England and in Wales where there are more books of test results than on the implementation of the curriculum. More time is spent testing than teaching in some of those schools. We do not want that to happen in Ireland.

It would be unacceptable — I must fight the rearguard action with people who oppose a more open approach to education — to use aggregated test results to compare school with school or county with county. For example, a highly successful teaching team in a disadvantaged area might be happy to measure success by bringing the majority of their pupils to an acceptable professional level of development. Another school might consider that a starting point while colleagues in other areas would demand more of themselves in terms of those outcomes. A comparison between one set of pupils and another is unfair to the pupils, the school authorities and the teachers and fails to give any indication of the problems or the progress.

I accept that in these days of political accountability the Minister needs to be able to tell people why we are spending £2 billion on education. For that reason, the teaching profession must move towards the Minister in the area of assessment. I am prepared to look at this difficult issue. I am opposed to aggregation and constant testing, but it must be approved and I hope we can reach an agreement.

The debate on school time has been disastrous over the past two or three months. Some 15 years ago the Department of Education asked management and teachers in the primary sector to increase the length of the school day by a certain period to reduce the school year from 190 days to 184 days in order to save the costs of heating, transport, administration, etc. This proposal was agreed and teaching time was not lost. It puts people like me in a difficult position if people are now shouting to add those six days back when the basis of the previous agreement was to lengthen the school day to make up this time.

As regards the initial training of teachers, education must reflect diversity. It would be an error to accept the current model as the only way to train teachers. Different, imaginative approaches must be adopted in this area, such as the consecutive and postgraduate models.

We must find a way to appraise teachers and to identify those experiencing problems. We must introduce welfare payments, etc. However, we do not need to appraise every teacher in the system all the time to weed out a number of problems. We should find a way to deal with the problems and allow other teachers to do their work. I know of the Minister's commitment to a teaching council.

The Minister has made major progress in the area of early childhood education. It makes economic and educational sense to respect the right and the need of young children to education and care, particularly in disadvantaged areas. The INTO will publish a major report on this area at its education conference later this month. We welcome what the Minister has done and the method of guided discovery through structured activities which are aimed at the harmonious development of children. We welcome the Minister's insistence on professional qualifications and classroom assistance for those working in child care areas. We need to develop that and to ensure the content of those courses.

The inspectorate is crucially important to the whole system. It is being diluted, but it needs to be part of the teaching team. A strong inspectorate is a guarantee of quality, although this may be against the interests of the INTO members.

I welcome the Minister. The tone of Senator O'Toole's contribution indicates that she is doing a good job. I have vivid memories of the first debate on education in this House when Senator O'Toole was critical of the Department of Education. His tone today is different from his tone on that occasion.

It is a negotiating process.

If one was an alien one would be excused for thinking that the Minister's plan to abolish third level fees was a highly improper and unpopular decision because newspaper reports castigated her for it. However, parents, including myself, appreciate what she has done. Many of us would not have gone to second or third level education if it had not been for the introduction of free education in the 1960s. I pay tribute to a former Minister for Education, the late Brian Lenihan, who was one of the early pioneers of free education and without whom we would not be in the positions we are in today.

Those of us who attended third level education became teachers, workers in local government, etc. However, we were faced with the problem of not being able to send our children to third level education because they were close in age, the cost was high and we were outside the income limits. We will benefit most from this proposal. People criticised the fact that those on high incomes would also benefit, but they always got more from the system through covenants. By abolishing covenants, the Minister will be able to finance third level education for many people in the middle income group.

I compliment the Minister for the attention she gave to the disadvantaged in primary education. I refute Senator Ormonde's claim that morale is low among the teaching profession. Many teachers, especially in the primary sector, do not share that view. They feel the Minister understands their grievances and knows what it is like to work in disadvantaged areas and with disadvantaged children. The Minister has taken their concerns on board by introducing a range of measures to ensure that these levels of disadvantage are examined and funded.

I especially thank the Minister for introducing 33 early start pre-schools for children from socially disadvantaged areas. The article written by Vincent Browne in The Irish Times yesterday gives a clear idea of all the difficulties faced by somebody growing up in a socially disadvantaged area and early start pre-schools are one way to combat this problem.

I thank the Minister for raising the number of home school links from 45 to 105, for raising capitation grants from £45 to £65 and increasing the number of remedial teachers from around 900 to nearly 1,200. The fund for disadvantaged areas has risen to £3.3 million. Another provision for which primary school teachers are particularly grateful is the decrease in maximum class sizes from 39 pupils to 29 pupils and that figure is projected to fall further. The number of second level remedial teachers has also increased. I thank the Minister for raising the number of guidance teachers from 350 to 568. Guidance teachers are essential when discussing third level options.

There may be a misguided view among some parents and pupils that the regional technical colleges are not an avenue to a good job; the reverse is often the case. The best, most lucrative and worthwhile jobs can be obtained through regional technical colleges. Many university graduates living in my area are qualified for jobs that are not available. If they had been guided into the areas in the regional technical colleges where there is a lack of suitably qualified people, they would have been trained in the way industry demands.

There should be ongoing links between our third level institutions and industry. There is no point having a large supply of graduates for certain areas if there are no jobs available while other areas do not have enough suitably qualified people. It is an enormous economic, social and educational drain that some of our brightest and best graduates are forced to emigrate while we are crying out for people to take up positions in other industries. People often have to be brought in from abroad to fill these gaps that could, with a little guidance and direction, be filled by our own people.

The Minister must be congratulated for increasing the annual education budget by £350 million, which is an indication of the commitment of this Government and the Labour Party to education. It is high on our list of priorities and the Minister has shown this by her commitment to all levels of education. However, I would like an improvement in the level of maintenance grant for children from disadvantaged homes. Grant aid should be increased to a more realistic figure and a system should be put in place where students going to third level could have access to these grants a little earlier. Some undergraduates have to survive for months with little money and this puts a huge drain on many low income families. I ask the Minister to take this into consideration over the coming years.

I again thank the Minister for the attention she has given to the people who need it most.

I find it difficult to be as enthusiastic a supporter of the Minister as her colleagues. If she continues to be Minister for Education, small primary schools in rural Ireland will disappear completely. I have a lot of evidence to support this theory. Senator Cotter is correct in saying that we are in a consultative period at the moment. However, the White Paper on education may as well be white smoke because it means nothing to those involved.

I will start my contribution by reading a letter from an elected representative of the County Donegal Protestant community which states:

It has been brought to my attention the serious situation at Monreagh Protestant School. This is a two teacher school with 30 children. About two years ago, transport was withdrawn due to insufficient numbers. That was the reason given at the time but now a more serious situation has emerged. The building has been deemed unsafe and the Office of Public Works has ordered the children out with no replacement of the premises. Considerable efforts have been made to have necessary repairs carried out but to no avail.

I am speaking on behalf of a section of the community that are not here to talk for themselves, the Protestant community. Many of these small Protestant schools in County Donegal may have to close. That does not reflect an open approach to the two traditions on this island. The Minister seems to be out of step with her colleagues on this matter. It will not be good for this country if this Protestant public representative discusses this lack of educational facilities with his colleagues across the Border. I have a litany of similar cases and it would take me an hour to go through all of them.

The Royal and Prior Comprehensive School in Raphoe is valuable to the Protestant tradition of County Donegal. The children attending that school have to get up at 6.30 a.m. to get a bus at 7.10 a.m. Many children are collected up to a mile and a half from their homes. One does not have to use much imagination to fully understand the effort those people have to make to get a secondary education for their children. They are entitled to regard themselves as being part of a community that is getting little attention.

I hope all the nice things said by the Minister's colleagues are true and I hope the Minister proves me wrong but her development plans do not take into account areas outside Dublin. Rural Ireland has suffered under her administration to the extent that her rationalisation programme excludes small two-teacher schools. No effort whatsoever is made to protect these small units of education. Small Protestant schools in Counties Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan and in the west will be the first to pay the price under the Minister's administration. They will be eliminated. They already have to make great sacrifices to partake of secondary education.

Will the Minister receive a deputation from the parents of the Protestant children in Donegal? The Minister has refused to meet them to date. I have a copy of a letter from her Department to Deputy McGinley and Deputy Coughlan, but the Minister and her officials have refused a meeting. I ask her openly and sincerely to prove me wrong and to prove wrong those who have already formed the impression that she could not care less about Protestant children and their future. The Minister should meet the parents of the Protestant children in County Donegal.

Recent education debates have tended to focus on the needs of people attending third level education, yet many young people leave school without an adequate foundation at primary or secondary level. Around 6 per cent of all pupils leave school without any qualification and in many parts of the country the figure is closer to 50 or 60 per cent.

For many students primary school is the only university, the one universal level of education. In this regard I implore the Minister to develop the Youthreach programme which is working so well for those who have opted out of second level education. I have seen the value of Youthreach to young people. Our primary class sizes continue to be the highest in the EU and in our infant classes our ratio is worse than in many countries. At primary level we spend per capita less than half than that spent in many other countries.

For decades our primary students have been expected to learn in a physical environment which is sometimes dangerous and we often hear of parents protesting and taking children out of school. Under Fianna Fáil Governments the word "temporary" acquired a disturbing permanence. It is unacceptable that as we approach the millennium we should still have primary schools without adequate indoor sanitation. It is unacceptable that in 1995 nearly a quarter of primary schools should lack a supply of drinking water or that 64 per cent should lack access to a typewriter, let alone a computer.

Democratic Left believes in a bottom-up rather than a top-down approach. Access to third level education will remain fundamentally inequitable until all children have equal access to a solid foundation at primary level. Traveller children are being provided for in the special education review but it still needs to be fully implemented. The provision of remedial teachers continues to be grossly inadequate. In some sparsely populated areas there may be one remedial teacher serving perhaps four or six schools. Remedial teachers may spend more time travelling from school to school than teaching.

I am delighted the Minister has established a task force to implement the findings of the special education review committee and that each school will be responsible for drawing up a policy on student assessment. The promised expansion of the school psychological service will provide teachers with a valuable back-up in this task. One of the problems that has bedevilled children with special needs in the past has been the absence of co-ordination between the relevant Departments and agencies. The White Paper recently published by the Minister suggests that each child with a special disability be entered on a national database.

The Minister is focusing on the good of the pupils. Last year she made a worthwhile decision to upgrade St. Gobnait's national school in Mallow. As a result many pupils are being accommodated in the recreational hall. The Minister said she made the decision for the good of the pupils and that shows. However, the Minister must keep in mind the provision of adequate accommodation for schools.

I endorse what Senator O'Toole said about assessment and curriculum. With regard to curriculum, media studies should be a central element to equip our citizens with the capacity to evaluate the barrage of information to which they are subjected and from which they draw the bulk of their opinions and views nowadays. However worthwhile our current education system may be it does not thus equip juveniles or adults.

Adult education is an idea whose time has come or ought to have come. The Minister says the establishment of Teastas is evidence of the "Government's commitment to the facilitation of life long learning". With respect, it is no such thing. It is the resources the Minister may get for it which would be evidence of the commitment. In that respect, it was a retrograde step to introduce the distinction between day and evening fees for university students last year. I ask the Minister as one of her highest priorities to restore parity between them as a matter of urgency. It has damaged the morale of adult education by appearing to relegate it to a second status level and introducing an invidious distinction in terms of status. Far more important than the Minister's eloquent paragraph of commitment to lifelong learning would be concrete evidence of her commitment to the values behind the admirable rhetoric.

I was disappointed to see the reference to the Culliton report in the Minister's speech. I hope the Department of Education has sufficient intellectual independence not to succumb to such an approach. The Culliton report was extremely good on those areas in which the members of that group knew what they were about. They did not know what they were talking about in education but seemed to draw on their recollections of their experience of 20 or 30 years ago. The chapter on education is by far the weakest in that report. I am sorry to see the Department cite it as if taking it on board when it should challenge it.

Some of the same recollections which are now out of date in large measure may be influencing the Minister's attitude towards what I understand is proposed university legislation. I will not comment on that as I have not been favoured with the details but I hope legislation is not based on an out of date image of what is happening in universities. I regard myself as a radical educational reformer and I welcome the Minister's reforms in many areas. Some of what I understand the Minister wishes to do with regard to universities is well worth doing but I will strongly resist some other of her objectives — if my understanding of what she has in mind is correct.

The area of research students and research at third level generally is still grossly neglected in terms of policy. It is the most unsatisfactory section of the report of the steering committee of the Higher Education Authority. It is an area with major policy and financial implications and I urge the Minister to address it in a systematic way as soon as her harassed officials have time to think about it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As it is now 12.10 p.m. we must take the question and answer session agreed to on the Order of Business. I propose to call Members individually but to avoid repetition I will call other Members if they have a related question. A number of Senators were anxious to contribute to the main debate but time did not allow that. I am most anxious to facilitate them and I ask Senators for their cooperation in that regard. I also ask that the questions be brief so we can get through as many as possible.

I am disappointed because I wished to make a contribution and am afraid this will be another whitewash, as we are not getting time to debate the effect on rural areas. We had a good education system when there were two school streams, vocational schools and colleges. The Culliton report supported that system but it was thrown aside. Is there any relationship between industry and education? The aim and net result of education is to create jobs so that people can make a living and rear a family. It is not a trophy to be put on the sideboard and admired, one should make use of it all through one's life. There will be a grave shortage of sheet-metal workers, welders, block builders and many other trades in the near future. Have any surveys been done about this? It is fine to send people for further education or the new scheme whereby people are in college until they are pensioners——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has made his point.

——but is there a job at the end of it? What is the relationship between education and creating jobs downstream and are we doing anything in that regard?

Apprenticeships involve co-ordination between the Department of Enterprise and Employment and the Department of Education. The schemes are good but people cannot get sponsorship. Education has a role to play as to how best we can help. Does the Minister have views on the matter?

I thank Senators for a lively debate and for stating the challenges to which I was invited to respond. As Minister for Education, although I am proud of my position, I do not have answers for all the questions at this time. In response to Senator Lee, I do not find my officials to be harassed at any time; probably they find the Minister harassed.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There may be a slight misunderstanding here, Minister. I understood you were going to reply to the specific question asked by Senator Farrell and the related question asked by Senator Ormonde, so that we could then allow another Senator to ask a question.

I thought I was winding up the comments and that was the end of the questions. In response to the questions from Senator Farrell and Senator Ormonde, the apprenticeship system is undergoing change at present. Senator Lee mentioned the Culliton and Moriarty reports and the Departments are looking at them again in developing these links. Whether one sees education as full training for a job or as having other purposes, I think Senator Ormonde will agree that we know from all the research that those who stay at school longest and acquire qualifications respond much better to the requirements the community makes of them. We are looking at retaining people in the education system, the apprenticeship scheme and the links between industry and education. The further education authority has a role in that regard. When we consider the massive investment by the EU, particularly in vocational training, we see the system Senator Farrell described has not gone forever. It is changing and the investment and management of that change is being facilitated with generous EU funding.

I am disappointed that because of the way the business was ordered, the tradition that each shade of opinion is heard has not been honoured on this occasion but I understand how it happened. The Minister said that each topic could be the subject of a debate in itself, which is true and I hope we will return within the next few weeks to the topic which concerns other Senators and myself.

The briefing document on third level education seems to be available to the press and some Members but others have not received it. Is it the Minister's intention to circulate it and if so when can we expect to receive it? My other questions relate to the proposals for the governance of third level education. In what way does the Minister think Trinity College, Dublin, as currently constituted is not accountable? Will Trinity have to accept outside representatives on its board, although its system has stood satisfactorily for over 400 years through war and, I suspect, significant political interference? In what way is it not representative as it stands? Will the Minister require universities to prepare and submit a charter to her and could or would she impose a charter on them? Would private funding of buildings or to endow chairs in universities be subject to State approval?

Finally, could the Minister reconcile two apparently contradictory statements in her script? When referring to proposed university legislation, it reads that respect for the autonomy of the institutions is also part of the context for development and the approach to policy is stated as a search for balance between institutional autonomy and the needs of public policy and accountability; that the proposed legislation acknowledges and gives expression to autonomy of universities which is consistent with the demands of accountability and transparency. I am interested how she reconciles that with her other statement:

The White Paper makes a commitment to bring forward legislation concerning the composition of governing bodies, the restructuring of the National University of Ireland and more comprehensive provisions relating to autonomy and accountability, diversity and enhancement of developmental roles.

As representatives of graduates Members on these benches feel strongly that graduates of all third level institutions should be able to participate in Seanad elections and this is part of the Minister's brief. When does she intend working on the constitutional amendment to allow the franchise to be extended to all third level colleges?

Are there any further related questions?

Mine is not related.

Mine is related.

On a point of order, I am not sure how business is being ordered and, like Senator Dardis, I feel a sense of frustration with it. I sat through most of the debate having foolishly prepared a contribution on third level education. Is there an order in which questions are being asked or is it simply whoever happens to catch the Chairman's eye? I have indicated three times that I want to ask a question.

Acting Chairman

There is an order but where there are related questions it seems appropriate to go outside it. On that basis I asked if there were related questions.

University governance is the subject of one of my questions, so that is surely related.

Acting Chairman

In that case we will allow the Senator to ask the related question.

I take it the other question on university fees is a separate issue. I have two specific questions and I will be brief as others wish to contribute. Regarding university governance, what compelling reasons and arguments can be put forward by the Minister against the existing structures? In common with Senator Dardis and others, I believe the existing structures have served education well. I cannot understand how meddlesome interference by the Department of Education could improve matters in any way. If governing bodies are to be restructured, I hope we do better than we did with regard to the regional technical colleges. That is not a model which commends itself to anybody.

If there is to be some restructuring of governing bodies, I hope it is not in the Minister's mind that political or elected representatives will be treated further as some form of pariah. This occurred with regard to the regional technical colleges when a previous Minister — a Minister of my own persuasion — removed Oireachtas Members from the regional technical colleges. There was no good or compelling reason for doing so and there is no good or compelling reason for doing it now with regard to third level institutions. I have a further question regarding fees but as this issue relates to governance I will return to it.

Is the Minister aware of the strong resistance which is building up in Trinity College, Dublin, to her proposals for the board? These have not been publicly stated but they are known throughout the university. Does she realise that many graduates in Trinity College will not tolerate Labour Party nominees, political appointments, to the board of a great university which has had autonomy for many centuries? If these proposals are in her mind, she should realise that a Bill proposing such nominees will not be passed by the House.

Is the Minister aware that people in Northern Ireland are watching her treatment of Trinity College, Dublin, very closely on this issue? They take her threat to its autonomy very seriously. I ask her to explain her philosophy and whether she believes a university should fulfil the needs of public policy. If so, what does that mean?

On a point of information, was it agreed on the Order of Business that a debate on the issue of Trinity College would be taken in the next three weeks?

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of information.

Questions are not excluded.

The Minister noted my concern regarding any interference with the charter of Trinity College, which is a private self governing institution. I assure the Minister this will be jealously guarded. The international reputation of the university is of the highest importance to the country. It is most important that only those things within the university which refer to accountability regarding finance, etc, are addressed.

I am a little disconcerted that we are discussing the substance of Senators Dardis's and Honan's motion. I understood, as my colleague Senator Sherlock also understood, this would be a matter for substantial debate when the information was before us. I have been in contact with the authorities of Trinity College to receive a detailed briefing. Will the Minister confirm that discussions are ongoing at present with the heads of the universities and, in light of that, a further position paper will be made available to the public for detailed discussion and analysis in the House? I will echo the points of my colleague, Senator Ross, who cogently put the case which is strongly felt within the university. Is the Minister aware of the degree of resentment, anger and frustration which is building up in the university? I was amazed that I was approached on two occasions during the last week while I was walking through the college. I was set upon by a horde of angry people who wanted to know what I was doing.

Does the Minister have any plans to give the University of Limerick the same status as Trinity College? There is nothing wrong with people appointed by the Labour Party. We are not pariahs.

My point relates to the structures being proposed at local level for vocational education. In common with my colleagues, including our spokesperson on education, Senator Ormonde, I wish to impress upon the Minister the anger and frustration——

Acting Chairman

A question, Senator.

——and the other adjectives used by my colleague, Senator Norris, at local level. I appreciate the Minister inherited this matter and she is only one of a number of Ministers who have attempted to——

Acting Chairman

A question, Senator.

Will the Minister assure us that she will consult at local level on the formation of local education boards? Will she completely drop any suggestion of regional boards? She should opt for local autonomy and if she has any conviction or commitment to democracy——

Acting Chairman

I will now call the Minister.

I ask her indicate that she shares our concern on this specific matter. I am grateful to the Minister for coming to the House and I do not wish this to be viewed as an attack. However, this issue is of great concern at local level, not just among elected politicians but also among parents.

Am I restricted to concluding at 12.20 p.m.?

Acting Chairman

That is a matter for the Leader of the House.

Perhaps ten minutes could be added to the debate, if that is acceptable to the Minister.

A dispensation from Trinity.

Acting Chairman

Is ten minutes extra agreed? Seven minutes more? Is that agreed? Agreed. The Minister has until 12.40 p.m.

I wish to respond to the contributions which preceded the questions before I deal with the questions. Senator Ormonde touched on a topic at the start of the debate which Senator Mooney mentioned at the conclusion. Many national and international studies of the Irish education system have been carried out over many years. The critical analyses always conclude that the system is too centralised. Following many discussions across the partners in education, including parents, managers and teachers, we are aiming towards real regional planning and devolution. All schools will be involved.

Senator Ormonde stressed the vocational education committee system, but as Minister for Education I must remind those in that dedicated section that we are talking about 250 vocational education committee schools. However, over 4,000 schools come within my remit. For example, in the primary sector, practically the colour of the paint on the front door is decided in Marlborough Street. Regional autonomy——

Local, not regional.

Acting Chairman

The Minister without interruption.

We have no difficulty identifying with the model of the health boards. There are regional differences——

They failed.

——between east, west, north and south but the plan reflects a sense of community, rather than division parish by parish or county by county.

Regarding Senator McGowan's comments, the regional difference is recognised by the communities which reflect greater participation by Protestants, Catholics and Gael Scoileanna in the west. In planning this move, we consulted widely and we have taken on board critical analyses of the system. Because we are planning for the future of the next generation it would be easy to sit back and concentrate on one particular issue, but this is a time of momentous change and every Minister for Education must be prepared to manage change and must not react to it as some have reacted outside this House.

Senator O'Toole welcomed 95 per cent of the White Paper. The challenge faced by the Department of Education is to retain people within the system. There has been a concentration on third level education within this debate, but many students never complete second level. There has been a measured success rate since I became Minister for Education. There has been an increase of seven per cent in the numbers of students retained within the system during the past three years. They must be dealt with in a way which allows us to target their needs and harness our resources. That is best done in partnership and can only be achieved as part of the job of teachers in the classroom.

Senator O'Toole also referred to the implementation of the curriculum and a system of assessment. During my time in the Department of Education a pattern has been established to consult with the partners involved on how it will be implemented. If these measures are to be introduced for the betterment of students this can be best achieved by continuing that model of consultation. In excess of £2 billion has been invested in the education system. The White Paper sets out the framework or philosophy on which decisions are taken on how that money is best spent.

I thank Senator Kelly for recognising my initiative in relation to the abolition of third level fees, as this affects parents. The cost was minimal. The Government abolished a very regressive covenant tax concession and recycled the proceeds to abolish undergraduate tuition fees.

Senator Lee mentioned night students. The priorities are hemmed in or controlled by the amount of funding available to a Minister. Criticisms of the Department of Education do not amount to much and arise because we do not have sufficient funding to make the Department's excellent services more widely and freely available. I passionately believe access to education is a right for everybody.

I was slightly taken aback with Senator McGowan's comments. The White Paper introduced during Deputy Séamus Brennan's term as Minister for Education discussed the idea of the four teacher school. There was a recommendation at the National Education Convention for representation from the Protestant community at management and all other levels. The idea of the four teacher school was then removed from the agenda. I am particularly sensitive to accusations that I am Dublin-centred or Catholic-centred. As Minister for Education I am responsible for an education system with which the word pluralism is associated. I take the Senator's comments on board but I challenge him to refer to the facts. The suggestion that I might turn my back on any sector of the community is one which I find quite hurtful.

Senator Sherlock was correct to inquire with regard to the Youthreach programme. Early school leavers have few qualifications and that guarantees them a place among the long-term unemployed. We have abolished third level fees, however, and we must concentrate more on work and resources at primary level and secondary level to retain more people within the system. I set myself a target to ensure that 90 per cent of students will avail of the leaving certificate by the turn of the century. We expect 89 per cent to do so in the very near future.

Further challenges must be faced on the relevance of the school curriculum and changes to it. It might be easier to change at a slower pace while many people are leaving the system and not availing of the State's massive investment in education. However, one has to rise to this challenge and identify where the curriculum needs to be changed. The teaching profession required in-career training, and some parts of the traditional honours leaving certificate were not suitable to all children's needs. I am sure Senator Ormonde will agree, from her experience as a guidance counsellor, that the extra 7 per cent of students remaining in school require more attention and greater challenges. Investment in education should be seen as relevant since education is the key to our life chances. The interest shown by Members of this House in debates on education is always startling. Those who leave education too early lose out on their life chances and have not made wise decisions. There is an obligation across the political spectrum to ensure that the options we now offer to these people are relevant.

I have already commented on Senator Farrell's point with regard to apprenticeships and the links between jobs and qualifications. Senators Dardis, O'Toole, Ross, Roche, Henry, Norris and Kelly raised the issue of the university legislation. I have indicated that discussions with the universities are ongoing. One often faces difficulty if one is prepared to consult since one begins with a stated position. That position was spelt out in the White Paper. There is no shock or surprise about this. As Minister, I have proceeded with my work and not waited to come to this House or the Lower House to deal with commitments given in the White Paper.

Papers can circulate outside a wider area of circulation than was originally intended but a consultative process, however, means that one also listens. Considering the tenure of the recent debate I had to circulate a certain amount of information in the interests of those participating in this process, senior civil servants in the Department of Education, the heads of the universities and the chancellor of the NUI. This debate would otherwise have reached its conclusion based upon spurious articles featured on the second last page of a recent Sunday newspaper. To enter a public debate — I say this for the benefit of Senator Dardis, the Progressive Democrats and other Senators in this House, particularly those elected by the National University of Ireland and the University of Dublin — based upon spurious accusations in certain sections of some city centre universities would be unfair.

I am pleased that today's debate concentrated on the White Paper on which discussions are ongoing. If I am to consult the Provost and the Presidents, I owe it to them to complete the consultation. I have undertaken to return to this House to specifically address those concerns.

Members of the House are not to be consulted?

A consultative process begins with the principles.

Will the briefing document be made available?

A commitment was given publicly that a position paper will be put to the public and that the heads of the Bills will be circulated. I expect that the debate in this House on that legislation will be very lively.

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