Vol. 145 No. 3
The Order of Business today is items 1, 2 and 14, motion 21. In regard to item 21, I refer Members to the Supplementary Order Paper which includes an additional amendment to that item. I hope item 1 will conclude at 6 p.m.; if it concludes earlier we will commence item 2. Private Members' time is at 6 p.m.
I congratulate Senator Ormonde on her appointment as Deputy Whip of Fianna Fáil. I wish her success, but not too much of it, in that position.
Senator Ormonde's appointment today is appropriate. The Order of Business as outlined by the Leader is agreed. The Leader will be aware that for the last number of months we have been asking for a debate on the policy on nuclear waste and dumping. I welcome the fact that the Government has initiated a Bill today — the Dumping at Sea (Amendment) Bill, 1995. However, it is difficult for constituents to understand why the EU and the European Commission should have a say in the ingredients of a sausage or a black pudding but not in relation to a nuclear waste policy. We should be afforded the time to reiterate the unanimous message from this House, to tell those involved in that policy that we do not welcome it and we want it stopped immediately.
When I was Leader of the House Senator Manning asked for a debate on the Price Waterhouse report; I ask him to afford this side an opportunity to debate item 14, motion 10, as soon as possible.
I notice that issuing a Supplementary Order Paper is becoming the norm. It would be appropriate to look at the reasons for that.
Defeating the Government, mostly.
I know I was the sinner last week. Changes in the Order of Business are all right when they suit oneself, but not when they are to suit someone else. We should have a clear understanding about that. As the delegation from the Isle of Man is here it is appropriate that the Leader of Fianna Fáil should raise the issue of nuclear energy. Our guests are more at risk from this than us.
Last week the Leader gave a positive response to arguments about the need to discuss issues related to the intergovernmental conference. I raised the possibility of Members of the European Parliament being able to attend or participate in such a debate. I look forward to a decision being made on this, possibly by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
With regard to the Supplementary Order Paper, is there any indication of the order in which amendments will be taken? Is this decided by the Cathaoirleach?
Yes.
I am not referring to items being accepted as part of the Order of Business. I am trying to work out what the voting pattern will be. There are so many complicated moves here this afternoon and I want to be clear about the order of voting so that people will know where to go.
I congratulate Senator Ormonde on her new job as assistant to the Fianna Fáil Chief Whip, a Dingle man. I hope that on her first outing she can be helped to a sense of victory during the afternoon. Will the amendments be taken in the order on which they appear on the Order Paper or in the order in which they were received?
They will be taken in the order in which they are printed in the supplementary Order Paper.
That begs the question of who decides in what order they are printed.
I assume it is on the basis of first come first served. In congratulating Senator Ormonde I am glad that you, a Chathaoirligh, have clarified for her what her task will be this evening. I wish her well in her office.
Senator Wright referred to the Defence Forces. There has been an ongoing call over an extended period for this matter to be dealt with in the House. We should deal not only with the Price Waterhouse recommendations but also with the implementation plan of the efficiency audit group. Many members of the Defence Forces are worried because there are reports that as many as eight barracks might be closed. The Minister has spawned a new acronym, NIMTO —"not in my term of office".
That could be a long time.
The Minister obviously expects it to be a long time. These fears exist and the Defence Forces want at least some of them cleared up and this can be done in this House. One fear relates to the Army apprenticeship school in Naas, which has a long and distinguished history where many young people have received a good education.
I support Senator Rory Kiely's calls for statements on agriculture, particularly in view of the income crisis in the sheep sector. I realise the other House is debating this sector and that Fianna Fáil has tabled a motion to be dealt with in Private Members' Business. I ask the Leader to make time available at the earliest opportunity for statements on agriculture to be taken in this House.
I appeal to the Leader to provide time next week for a debate on the Defence Forces. Senator Dardis referred to the report of the efficiency audit group. There is concern throughout the country about the effects this may have. It may be said that nothing will happen for three years but the process of change will take place. It is important that we have an urgent debate on the issue next week and that ample time is provided in the interests of all the families concerned.
The issue of the Army is one which this and previous Governments have been forced to address. It would be a great pity if, in a political point scoring exercise, unnecessary fears were generated because of a lack of knowledge and information. There is a need for a serious debate on the role of the Defence Forces. There is also a need — I raised this before — to redeploy them in a different way. There is no reason we could not use the Army and the Garda Síochána as a UN peacekeeping corps which would be available as a rapid response force to go anywhere in the world. It is recognised in the UN, throughout Europe and elsewhere that the Irish are good at this job because they quickly establish good relationships. I ask the Leader to include that aspect of the Army's work in any debate on the issue.
Last week I asked for a debate on the self-regulating professions, such as the legal and medical professions. I have doubts about this procedure because we have seen fraud in the legal profession in recent years and we are now faced with the case in Cork which I mentioned last week. I welcome the fact that the Irish Medical Council asked the High Court to strike the doctor off the medical register. However, the public is entitled to know how the system works because, contrary to popular belief, people are judges in their own courts. I reiterate the point I made last week that there is public disquiet about self-regulation and debate should be held in this House on that matter.
Ós rud é go bhfuil an Bille Cuanta críochnaithe sa Dáil anois ba mhaith liom a iarraidh a fháil amach cathain a bheidh an Bille sin sa Teach seo. The Harbours Bill was passed in the Dáil today. When will it come before this House?
In the past few days two priests were named in connection with sexual abuse cases. In my experience the names of those who are being investigated or have been arrested are not mentioned until they are charged in court. This procedure should not be changed. I ask the Leader for a debate on this issue as soon as possible to ensure that priests are treated in the same way as everyone else. People have always been entitled to defend themselves in court; priests are also entitled to fair play. A professional person could be investigated——
Please put a question to the Leader.
——without their names being mentioned, but in this case the priests' names have been made public. I ask for a debate on this matter.
A programme is being screened tomorrow night about the Malcolm Macarthur murder trial. Mr. Donal Dunne, from County Offaly, was murdered and a nolle prosequi was entered in his case.
Have you a question for the Leader?
I ask the Leader for a debate on the screening of such matters because the gruesome facts are discussed on television, radio and in the newspapers. This is a serious matter because the families who have suffered the loss experience the grief once again. I call for an early debate on this issue.
I endorse the comments made by Senator Wright about the appointment of Senator Ormonde to the position of Assistant Chief Whip. I am sure those of us on the Cultural and Educational Panel will welcome any enhancement of Senator Ormonde's role which might help her to get into the other House as quickly as possible. I mean that in the nicest way possible.
A question to the Leader of the House.
My question relates to the arts plan initiated by the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy O'Higgins, for the period 1995-97, which was approved by the Cabinet recently. In view of the approval by the Cabinet and the widespread concern in the arts community nationwide, and in the wider community, that sufficient funding may not be available for the implementation of much of the Minister's impressive schemes——
Vicious rumours.
——will the Leader consider granting Government time for a discussion on the arts plan, which is a Government initiative? This would allow the Minister to come to the House and perhaps refute the rumours which are circulating around the country.
I support the request for a debate on the Price Waterhouse report. Will the Leader arrange that debate as soon as possible? In addition, will the terms of reference given to Price Waterhouse be available? I cannot accept that a firm of consultants would submit a report in favour of closing a military barracks when contractors are spending £2 million developing an Army barracks in Lifford, County Donegal.
We are not discussing the matter on the Order of Business. A question to the Leader, Senator.
I am trying to explain why an early debate on this issue is necessary. It is of concern to at least nine regions, including my county.
I repeat a request made to the Leader last week. Will he arrange a debate as soon as possible on the current situation in the North of Ireland? We are receiving conflicting reports; one day there is a stalemate but the next day we hear progress has been made, it is a merry-go-round. A debate on this matter has not been held in the House for a long time. I strongly urge the Leader to arrange a full day's debate on the North. Our views should be made known. If we keep quiet, the absence of a contribution from the House could imply we do not have strong views on what is happening in the North. I want the House to have an opportunity to express its views on the current situation.
I do not want to prolong the issue of the Price Waterhouse report but Senator Magner's statement is relevant. Nobody is attempting to score points. We have been seeking copies of the Price Waterhouse report and the report of the efficiency audit group for many months. It has been debated in public in many other arenas — the dogs in the street are debating it — but the House has not even had an opportunity to read the report. I agree with Senator Magner that the debate should include the role of the Army in terms of the United Nations and a rapid response force.
The Senator is supporting the call for a debate.
Members are not point scoring; we have been consistent in seeking copies of the report. A broad debate could then be held.
In view of the huge problems which the public, the Garda and the Judiciary are encountering in terms of the operation of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, when will a full debate on this area be held? I am not criticising the DPP but the role of the office should be debated in public. There is grave public disquiet and people are asking why their cases were not brought before the court. They cannot get a response from the DPP as to why it was decided cases would not stand up in court. It is time the role of the DPP and the office were debated fully in the Houses of the Oireachtas. People who could not bring cases are not alone in their concern.
The Senator has made his point.
The Garda, the Judiciary and anybody who ever tried to bring a case are concerned. Too many people are out on bail pending decisions on their cases——
The House is not discussing the difficulties involved with this issue. Is the Senator requesting a debate on the matter?
I ask the Leader to make time available for an urgent debate on the matter.
I am delighted Senator Ormonde has been chosen as Assistant Whip. I support Senator Enright's and Senator McGowan's requests for debates.
A recent episode of "Glenroe" screened by RTÉ showed people how to pick and prepare magic mushrooms. In the weeks which followed, four people were admitted to Sligo General Hospital suffering the effects of magic mushroom poisoning. Television programmes should be entertaining but they should not encourage the preparation of drugs or anything that would damage young people. Could the Leader inform RTÉ, through the appropriate Minister, that we feel very perturbed that something which could cause deaths and bring trouble to families is being highlighted in an entertainment programme. I do not believe RTÉ should show such programmes.
Television programmes dealing with recent criminal cases will soon be shown on RTÉ and people's feelings will be very hurt. Many parents, brothers or sisters——
I remind the Senator that the content of television programmes is not a matter for this House.
I am aware of that. This is the only forum where I can convey——
Does the Senator have a question relevant to the Order of Business?
I support Senator Enright's request for a debate on this issue. I ask the Leader to convey to the appropriate Minister our dissatisfaction with RTÉ for its production of programmes which are associated with drugs or other substances harmful to young people.
I thank the leaders of the other parties and my colleagues in Fianna Fáil for their good wishes regarding my appointment as Assistant Whip. I would not like anyone to believe that the velvet touch will necessarily reflect the iron hand.
Will the Leader request the Minister for the Environment to make a statement on Part VII of the Local Government Act, 1994, which relates to the bylaw repeal. They came into operation last July but the local authorities have not had the authority to enforce them. This affects access to open space and regional parks, particularly those in council ownership. It also deals with drugs and the powers of the Garda Síochána.
I join with others who requested a debate on farming. Such a debate has been requested on a number of occasions recently, particularly in relation to sheep farmers. Thousands of sheep farmers and members of the IFA demonstrated outside this House today and in recent weeks calling for an indepth consideration of the pricing of sheep and the reduction of wages which sheep farmers have experienced in recent years. The last increase sheep farmers received was in December 1992. I do not believe any other section of the community would tolerate that.
The House is not discussing that matter today.
Two weeks ago I raised an issue of grave public concern, that is, the alleged misconduct of a Cork based doctor. I requested that the Minister for Health should issue a statement, in this House or elsewhere, to allay people's fears and reassure women in particular. The Leader replied that there was an ongoing investigation by the Garda Síochána and left it at that, but last week a Government Senator raised the same matter and he received a positive response from the Leader of the House. Will the Leader reassure the House that there is impartiality and that responses are made on the merits of the issues raised? I am not accusing the Leader but I hope he will reassure the House on that matter which is one of public concern and has been raised before on the Order of Business.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Richard Bruton, who is involved in the negotiations with Britain to try to secure a deal for Irish Steel, to explain what progress is being made to ensure State investment for Irish Steel and that ISPAT will remain as a partner? This is of grave concern to more than 300 people and the Cobh hinterland generally. Unfortunately, an attempt to raise the matter earlier in the Dáil was unsuccessful. This is of enormous importance and every opportunity should be taken to inform the workers and the people of Cobh and Ringas-kiddy about the negotiations, what production limits are being placed on Irish Steel and the cost factors involved.
In view of the fact that there is a phenomenal increase in unemployment, would it not be appropriate for a Minister to explain to this House why there is no activity to curb unemployment? It is a scandal. We are sick to death of the rhetoric from all sides involved over the last number of months but nothing has been done.
We are not discussing the matter on the Order of Business. Do you want a debate on that subject?
I ask the Leader to ensure a debate so that I can elaborate on this matter further.
Having called for a debate on agriculture on a number of occasions, I am most encouraged by today's support for such a debate, especially from Senator Dardis and Senator Finneran. I am sure the Leader will reply positively to my request.
I support Senator Enright's and Senator Farrell's comments about items broadcast on radio and television. Some time ago a programme called A Song and a Story featured a murder in my parish which occurred about 100 years ago. It was most unfair because it brought back memories and hurt feelings. The grandchildren of the people involved did not know about it. That was very unfair to them.
We are not discussing the programmes that RTÉ is running. I have already made a ruling on that.
Senator Farrell made an important and sincere point which the Leader could perhaps convey to the Minister. I also support Senator Kelleher's call for a debate on Irish Steel because there is a serious problem there. On Morning Ireland a British MEP more or less said that our Minister had failed.
In response to repeated requests from Senator Wright for a debate on nuclear policy, that debate will take place next Thursday. A number of requests were made about the Price Waterhouse report. I could say to the Leader of the Opposition that I would be happy to give him the same opportunity he afforded me to debate that document. However, I will convey to the Minister for Defence the concern that has been expressed on all sides of the House for a debate on the reorganisation of the Defence Forces. As regards Senator O'Toole's point about the Supplementary Order Paper and the order in which items are taken, this is entirely a matter for the Cathaoirleach.
I have spoken with the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Gay Mitchell, and we will shortly have the debate that was requested on the Intergovernmental Conference.
The profusion of amendments that have been arriving late in the day in recent times is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I intend to raise the matter there today to have it resolved once and for all.
A number of Senators jumped on Senator Rory Kiely's bandwagon calling for a debate on agriculture. I will try to have a debate on the major agricultural issues as soon as possible.
Last week Senator Dardis raised the question of a debate on restructuring the universities. I will try to convene a meeting with Senator Dardis, Senator Ormonde and some of the Independent Senators, as well as the Labour and Fine Gael spokespersons on Education, to see how best we can structure that debate. It will happen within the time span I indicated.
In reply to Senator Finneran, I did not intend to — and I do not believe that I did — discriminate in my replies to different sides of the House on the same question. The point raised by Senator Magner last week concerned the self-regulating professions — an issue he raised again today. I suppose the answer is that the professions might go a lot of the way by being more transparent in conveying to the public how their procedures work. We would discuss the matter in this House if the appropriate motion was tabled.
Senator Finneran and others will appreciate that on matters like this — where ongoing investigations are taking place and where I do not have right of access to the up-to-date situation — it could be extremely dangerous and indeed wrong of me to make any remark which might prejudice things that may happen later. I accept that this is a serious matter which caused widespread concern. If there was an appropriate way it could be debated in this House I would be happy to facilitate it but I suspect it would be wiser to let the investigations take their course. There are questions for the profession itself to answer.
As regards Senator Fitzgerald's question, the Harbour Bill is finishing today in the Dáil and it should be before the Seanad within two weeks. Senator Enright raised a number of issues which, strictly speaking, were not appropriate to the Order of Business. However, I share with him a sense of shock when I see people, and especially priests, named before any charges have been brought, on foot of allegations which have not been substantiated and where a person's character could be ruined. Watching television coverage of recent sex abuse cases where priests were charged in Northern Ireland, I found it appalling that these people were filmed on their way to court. In those cases charges had been preferred, but in the case mentioned by Senator Enright I think it is an appalling practice. I would like clarification from the newspapers as to why people are named and their photographs are published. There may be an explanation and I would like to hear it.
Senator Enright and others spoke about television programmes of recent murders. If there is to be such a programme, I would expect that, at the very least, the television authorities would have cleared it with the families concerned and that further undue distress and suffering would not be caused needlessly in the interests of exploitation for television.
As regards Senator Mooney's question on the arts plan, I will see what I can do to have a debate on it between now and the end of session. Senator Lanigan raised the question of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I am not sure what our rights are in having such a debate so I will inquire and come back to the Senator.
We do not have any real function when it comes to magic mushrooms.
Keep them in the dark.
I will make the inquiry for Senator Ormonde although I do not fully understand it. Senator Finneran raised the question of agriculture, I will try to have such a debate. Senator Kelleher mentioned Irish Steel. Senators can be assured that the Government is determined to do the best that can possibly be done. I believe the Government will be successful and that the outcome will please everybody.
