Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 17 Jun 1998

Vol. 156 No. 1

Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

As the first item on the agenda, I ask the House to take a motion without debate referring the report of the Independent Inquiry into Matters Relating to Child Sexual Abuse in Swimming to the Joint Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation, in accordance with paragraph 1 of the orders of reference of that committee.

We will then take items 1, 2 and item 15, motion 22, on today's Order Paper. Item 1, Committee and remaining Stages to be taken until 12 p.m. Item 2, Second Stage will be taken today with the contributions of the spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes. This will be taken between 12 p.m. until 4 p.m.

In response to the requests made by various Senators last week, we will deal with the Insurance Ombudsman from 4 p.m. until 6 p.m. and Private Members' business will be taken from 6 p.m. until 8 p.m.

Mr. Connor

We agree to the Order of Business. I wish to inquire about legislation giving effect to the work of the Western Development Commission. This commission was set up last year by the previous Government and established headquarters in Ballaghadereen, County Roscommon, appointed a chief executive and a number of staff. However, its activities cannot properly commence without the necessary legislation. We had hoped that the legislation would be put in place earlier but it is not included in the schedule of proposed legislation up to the end of the session. Will the Leader raise this matter with the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food, Deputy Davern? The legislation is not controversial and should pass with a minimum amount of debate. Many Senators will have something to say on the Bill but that will be of a positive nature. The legislation should be presented before the end of the session which is three weeks away.

Dr. Henry

I wish to clarify that the motion on sexual abuse in swimming will be taken at 4 p.m. and item 15 at 6 p.m.

Mr. Norris

The insurance debate will be from 4 p.m. to 6 p.m.?

Mr. Cassidy

The debate on the Insurance Ombudsman which the Senator requested last week.

Dr. Henry

The report on swimming will be at 6 p.m.?

An Cathaoirleach

Ordinary Private Members' business will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.

Dr. Henry

That is agreeable to me.

Mr. Costello

Will the Leader clarify under which item we are taking it? I thought he said we were debating the Insurance Ombudsman under item 3 but I do not see that on the Order Paper. I do not agree with the Order of Business, particularly concerning the report of the independent inquiry into matters relating to child sexual abuse in swimming. The Minister stated that this document has been circulating for two weeks and he saw no reason as to why it should not be leaked in today's Irish Independent. He spoke about it and disclosed its contents last night on “Tonight with Vincent Browne” and on “Morning Ireland” this morning. We seem to be the only House which does not have an opportunity to debate the report. We are going through a charade. Questions must be asked of the Minister as to how a document which must go to the Oireachtas Joint Committee so that it can be published, has already been leaked and discussed in detail. However, this House is being asked to agree an order that it will go to the committee so that it can be released to the public. Would the Leader respond to this situation? When this House is treated in this fashion concerning such a matter, the relevant Minister should come into the House and clarify what has happened and why we are being treated in this fashion. I am not satisfied with the Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

Will the Leader arrange for a debate on the National Roads Authority? Some years ago responsibility for national primary and secondary roads was taken from the Department of the Environment and local authorities and given to the NRA. It seems that the NRA is giving unequal treatment to different local authorities and roads. Most of the EU funds for national primary roads are being spent in the east. This is a serious matter.

An Cathaoirleach

We cannot discuss this matter now. The Senator is calling for a debate on the matter and he has made a case for such a debate.

Mr. Finneran

I am asking for a debate but the Leader should ensure that it is more than that. We want a response from the NRA either through the Minister or some other system. There would be no point in debating the matter in a vacuum. We want the opportunity of sifting through the NRA's expenditure over the past number of years to find out where the money was spent and then give our judgment. Surely a body such as the NRA must be responsible to someone. It was established by the Houses of the Oireachtas and it should be responsible to the Houses.

Mr. Norris

I am a little confused. Will the Leader confirm that we are starting with the motion on swimming, then the European Communities Bill and the child trafficking Bill. As I understood the Leader, item 4 relates to the Insurance Ombudsman which we raised. However, the Leader referred to item 15 on the Order Paper which relates to regulations under the Sale of Goods and Services Act. It seems that item 18 or 20 would deal directly with the Insurance Ombudsman. The Leader has indicated that he regards the central focus of the debate between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. as being on the Office of the Insurance Ombudsman. Will he clarify that point? The Leader is nodding so there is agreement that we will discuss the Insurance Ombudsman between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

Item 15 is the number on the general list of Private Members' motions but it will be taken under item 15, motion 22 — the Labour Party motion on the Insurance Ombudsman.

Mr. Norris

Motion 22 is on industrial relations. I do not want to hold up the House. The important point is that we know what we are discussing.

Mr. Cassidy

The Leader will clarify the situation when replying.

Mr. Norris

Two motions directly relate to the Insurance Ombudsman — the Labour Party motion 18 and the Independent motion 20.

An Cathaoirleach

It might simplify matters if the Leader clarified what he has ordered.

Mr. Cassidy

I propose that, as requested by Senator Norris and others, we discuss the Insurance Ombudsman between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m. That is a supplementary to the Order Paper. If so, I now so propose. I also wish to clarify that if item 2 is not concluded, it will be taken after 8 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

What format is proposed between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m.? Is it statements or a motion?

Mr. Cassidy

Statements as requested on last week's Order of Business.

Mr. Norris

That is clear and I thank the Leader for accommodating us in this important matter. Would he consider allowing a short period of time to debate the non-controversial item 15, motion 1, on the establishment of an international court? There will be a meeting of world leaders in July at which this important matter will be discussed and Ireland could play an important role. There are some difficulties, particularly concerning sovereignty, and we need to obviate a situation where, for example, one had to refer to a dictator like Pol Pot and whether there would be an inquiry into his crimes. Ireland could play an important role but timing is of the essence as the meeting is in early July.

Mr. Burke

In view of the mid-term review of Structural Funds taking place on 20 June, will the Leader call on the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, to publish the report on rail safety? There are a number of stretches of railway which are not safe and substantial funding of £114 million is available which was released from the Luas project. Will the Leader ask the Minister for Public Enterprise to publish the report on rail safety so that, if there are any inadequacies in the rail network, money can be provided for their improvement on 20 June when the mid-term review takes place?

Mr. O'Donovan

I understand the issue of carnage on the roads was raised yesterday on the Order of Business. In calling for such a debate, perhaps the Department of Education and Science and, possibly, the Department of Health and Children should also be included because of the significance of drink driving and speeding to road accidents. Regarding education, the topic of civics should be reintroduced to the school curriculum to ensure young people are educated on all aspects of driving, rules of the road, road manners, etc. When the debate on road safety is held, will the Leader ensure an input from the Department of Education and Science is included because the education of young drivers is the one way this problem can be solved in the long-term?

I also understand that when I was absent last week people called for a debate on the growing suicide rate. This is of concern to me because I understand from medical personnel that the rate is growing by one per day. A debate should be held on this, possibly in the next term. Will the Leader examine the possibility in the interim of the Department of Health and Children establishing a task force on the issue, as it is a huge and sad problem facing the country to which there seems to be no answers?

I concur with Senator Finneran's request for a debate on the National Roads Authority. Such a debate is overdue.

Mr. Coghlan

There are many matters of serious import concerning the insurance industry and I appreciate that some of these will be addressed this afternoon. In that regard, item 15, motions 18 and 20 are relevant but not item 15, motion 15. Regarding the latter, will the Leader use his good offices to inform Members whether the ministerial order referred to in the motion has been made and, if not, perhaps he could elaborate as to why not?

Mr. Gallagher

Regarding the report of the independent inquiry into child sex abuse in swimming, I appreciate the urgency in referring it to the committee for debate; but it is a sad day when we are asked to refer a report without first seeing it, especially when it is available in a national newspaper. That is not the way to do business. I was disappointed to hear the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation say this morning that no one should be surprised the report was leaked because it was doing the rounds for the past two weeks. Regarding the serious issues raised for swimming and for sport generally, will the Leader request the Minister to attend a debate as soon as possible on the issues raised in the report?

Dr. M. Hayes

The previous speaker made the point I was going to raise so I will not labour it. It is important the report on child sex abuse in swimming is made public as quickly as possible. It is right we should not discuss it without having seen it, but I hope both we and the Minister can discuss it in a broader context which would have regard to the impact on all sport. It is a serious matter for swimming but it is something which impacts on all sports and I hope we will have regard for the thousands of dedicated people in all sports who provide training and coaching. While we must protect children and the good name of sport, we must avoid frightening off people who provide a service to children. I hope we can have an early debate on the matter.

Mr. McDonagh

I support the call from the Acting Leader of the Opposition to expedite the legislation concerning western development. It deals with the most disadvantaged area of the country and all our futures could be enshrined in this legislation. I appeal to the Leader to endeavour to have this legislation initiated within this session and not to leave it until autumn.

Mr. Lydon

Is it possible to have a debate on enlargement of the European Union as more countries apply for membership? It is important we discuss it because of the effects it will have on farming and other interests.

I congratulate Senator Norris for his stout rebuttal of the carping critics of Bloomsday.

Mr. Mooney

Does Senator Norris care to repeat the phrase?

Mrs. A. Doyle

Can the time between 4 p.m. and 6 p.m., when statements will be taken on the Insurance Ombudsman, be used as a more interactive session as has happened before? Short opening statements will probably suffice but can time be made for interaction and a question and answer session with the Minister? It is the only way we can impact on the public concerning the relevance of the House to matters of public interest. I urge the Leader to accede on this occasion to that the format of a discussion phase. It is something he has done before.

I support speakers who queried the request to nod through the report of the independent inquiry into matters relating to child sex abuse in swimming to allow it be discussed by the Joint Committee on Tourism, Sport and Recreation. Out of courtesy to Members, copies of the report and of any report on which we are asked to agree to a motion without debate should be provided. I ask for that to be formatted in future and that we be given copies of the report as a courtesy to Members. If we allow ourselves to be taken for granted by others and by the structures in the Oireachtas, it will be small wonder that the relevance of the House is questioned. We know how relevant it is but we are making a poor effort in ensuring the public knows that. This occasion today is another example of how we allow ourselves be slighted. We should be provided with a copy of this report and of any report we are asked to nod through without debate.

Mr. D. Kiely

Will the Leader make time available before the end of the session for a debate with the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs on the increased costs on private nursing homes which are forcing out elderly people? The situation is frightening and there should be an immediate debate on the matter and on measures taken to care for senior citizens.

Mr. Burke

The Minister is still in London.

Mr. Bohan

I compliment the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on measures he will shortly introduce to curb the influx of illegal immigrants. I was amazed to read in a newspaper that a Romanian had lodged £12,000 in a bank with instructions for it to be forwarded to Germany, most likely to finance the transport of further illegal immigrants to Ireland.

Will the Leader ask the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs to issue these people with food vouchers or some other kind of vouchers instead of giving them cheques for unemployment assistance? When they enter banks, they jump queues and push people out of the way because they refuse to queue to cash their cheques.

Mr. Norris

Irish people behave badly in banks.

Mr. D. Kiely

Irish banks behave badly.

An Cathaoirleach

There will be an opportunity to make such points when the proposed legislation comes before the House. The Senator should not anticipate the debate. There will be an opportunity to discuss the matter when the proposed legislation comes before the House.

Mr. Bohan

I accept that.

Mr. Bonner

Is it possible for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to attend a debate on the recently published IDA Ireland report? While there were many kudos in the report for IDA Ireland executives for the more than 14,000 jobs created, the north west is the only region which has suffered a net job loss. Over eight months ago in Letterkenny the Minister said the IDA was doing as much as possible to attract industry to the region but no jobs have been announced by the IDA in the interim, although a small number were announced by Forbairt. Perhaps the Minister would come to the Seanad to debate the matter.

Mr. Cassidy

Item 1 will not be taken before 12 midday. Item 2, the Child Trafficking and Pornography Bill, 1997, will be taken at the conclusion of item 1 but after 12 midday and will conclude at 4 p.m. If Second Stage is not concluded at 4 p.m. the debate will continue from 8 p.m.

Senator Connor, Senator Avril Doyle and Senator Costello expressed concern at the way the urgent report on child sexual abuse in swimming has been presented to the House. The same procedure will take place in the Dáil. This procedure was agreed among the Whips to facilitate the committee meeting at which the Minister will make the report public. What is reported in the newspapers is not at the discretion of the House. It is my intention that Senators will have as much time as they require to discuss the report in the Seanad.

Senator Finneran asked for a debate on the National Roads Authority. There was a useful debate on this subject during Private Members' business in the last session and I will allocate time for a further debate in the next session. Senator Connor expressed concern about the western development Bill. I understand the Bill is at an advanced stage of drafting and I will report to the Senator on what progress has been made early next week.

Senator Burke and Senator McDonagh asked that the Minister for Public Enterprise give assurances to the Seanad and the public on rail safety and that she come to the Seanad to discuss the report on rail safety. I will convey their wishes to the Minister. Senator O'Donovan asked for a debate on the carnage taking place on our roads. He suggested that the Minister for Education and Science as well as the Minister for the Environment and Local Government participate. Everybody was shocked by the dreadful accident which occurred in County Laois last weekend and the Senator proposed that an education programme for young drivers be introduced as a matter of urgency. I will convey the Senator's request and I will allocate time for that debate in the next session.

I will consider Senator Coghlan's request in relation to item 15 and report to the House tomorrow morning. Senator Gallagher and Senator Hayes were also concerned that the report on child sexual abuse in swimming be discussed in the House. I will arrange for a debate on the report before the end of this session.

Senator Lydon asked for a debate on the enlargement of the European Union. I will allocate time for that debate early in the next session. Senator Avril Doyle called for statements and a question and answer session on the Insurance Ombudsman of Ireland. If time permits and the Minister agrees, I have no objection to such a proposal. The format has been used successfully in the past but many Senators are anxious to participate in a debate on this matter so there must be agreement among them on the proposal.

Senator Dan Kiely spoke about private nursing homes and the high cost of such homes for senior citizens. I would welcome a debate on this matter. The Minister for Finance addressed the issue in the budget and I hope the private sector will take up the new incentives that were introduced. As Senator Kiely said, there is an urgent need for nursing homes and it should be the next area of investment by the private sector.

Senator Bohan highlighted the enormous difficulties being experienced by the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and Social, Community and Family Affairs as a result of the influx of illegal refugees. Many Senators will be anxious to contribute to a debate on this subject and I will endeavour to facilitate them at the earliest opportunity. Senator Bonner sought a debate on the IDA report and asked that the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment come to the Seanad to discuss the fact that the north west has not benefited from the celtic tiger economy. That is true of many other parts of the island. I will allocate time for such a debate.

Mr. Norris

What about the International Criminal Court?

Mr. Cassidy

I will report on my consideration of the matter tomorrow morning.

An Cathaoirleach

Will the Leader of the House clarify the Order of Business? There is confusion about when item 1 will be taken.

Mr. Cassidy

I propose that item 1 be taken now and that item 2 be taken not earlier than 12 noon.

Order of Business agreed to.