Order of Business.

Mr. Cassidy

Before I call the Order of Business, on behalf of the House, I wish to send our condolences and sympathy to the families of the four young men who lost their lives so tragically this morning in the terrible helicopter crash in the south of Ireland. These people, who had been trained and worked so tirelessly to save lives on a daily basis, had just completed a successful mission prior to being killed so young and so tragically.

Today's Order of Business is Nos. 1, 2, 3 and 5. No. 1 is a report of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. It proposes to amend Standing Order 65 in relation to powers of committees and the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on European Affairs. No. 2 is a motion to implement the change in the terms of reference of the Joint Committee on European Affairs proposed by No. 1. Nos. 1 and 2 shall be taken without debate. On No. 3, Second Stage shall be taken today, contributions of spokespersons on Second Stage not to exceed 15 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes. Senators may share time. No. 5 is Committee and Remaining Stages of the Horse and Greyhound Racing (Betting Charges and Levies) Bill, 1999.

Mr. Manning

I wish to join with the Leader of the House in expressing sympathy to the families of those killed in the appalling tragedy in Tramore last night and to the Air Corps. Like the Leader, we all appreciate the importance of the work done by the Air Corps. This is the first such tragedy in its history. These people, who were trained to the highest level of expertise, were engaged in selfless work protecting and saving the lives of others. This is an enormous tragedy and at this moment all our thoughts go to their families and colleagues. My party would like to be associated with that expression of sympathy.

Before I address the Order of Business, may I say that this is not the time to analyse or comment on what is taking place in the North. The news today fills us all with a great deal of gloom. However, it is not over yet; there may still be time to achieve an agreement. Should it be appropriate, this side of the House will agree to sitting an extra day next week or to having a debate on Wednesday on the outcome of the Northern talks. I suggest to the Leader that he should make time available next Wednesday for a debate on the current situation in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Taoiseach would come here to address the House on the issue.

On the Order of Business, I am not happy about the arrangements whereby this side of the House still does not know in any formal way what next week's business is. We will be sitting on Tuesday and Wednesday but it is very difficult to organise business if we do not know what we are being asked to take next week. It has been suggested to me that the Government wants to take all Stages of the National Beef Assurance Scheme Bill next week. This is a Seanad Bill which was published only last Tuesday. There is a normal convention that at least a week is allowed to elapse following the publication of a Bill before Second Stage is taken. The suggestion that we should take all Stages of a Seanad Bill – a Bill of approximately 40 sections – in one sitting next week is something this side of the House totally opposes. This is a Seanad Bill which cannot go to the Dáil before the summer recess. We agree to take Second Stage of the Bill next week but we strongly oppose any suggestion to take all Stages in one or two days. This Bill would benefit from careful scrutiny over the summer months.

Mr. Quinn

I add our voice to those of the two previous speakers with regard to the tragedy in Tramore last night. It reminds of us of how quickly and suddenly death can occur and of the things we take for granted.

I support Senator Manning's suggestion to discuss Northern Ireland next week if there is reason for such a debate and we feel it can be of use. That depends on the outcome of today's negotiations.

I also support Senator Manning with regard to the National Beef Assurance Scheme Bill. I was unaware this Bill had been published in the past couple of days and of the suggestion to try to squeeze it in next week. This is a Seanad Bill and cannot become law until it is passed by the Dáil. I see no reason to rush it. I hope we have a good debate if it comes before us next week but I also hope we will not squeeze all Stages into one week.

I raised my concern last week about the health community pharmacy contractor regulations which came into operation yesterday. Could the Leader ask the Minister for Health and Children if he is aware that the Director of Consumer Affairs has publicly opposed the constraints on trade which this introduces? The Competition Authority has stated there is no obvious justification or rationale for granting health board contracts in this manner. It constrains trade. In some cases there will be no competition between pharmacies and young pharmacists will be unable to obtain permission to open a new pharmacy unless they buy an existing one. The introduction of licences for pharmacies is against all trends in Europe, including Ireland. I urge the Minister to reconsider these draconian steps with regard to the constraints on trade.

I congratulate my colleague, Senator Mary Henry, on her receipt yesterday of a doctorate from Magee College, Derry. It gives pride to all of us in this House. We all bask in that glory.

Mr. Manning

Hear, hear.

Mr. Costello

I also wish to be associated with the expressions of sympathy and condolence offered to the families and relatives of the four men who tragically died in Tramore. I commend the Air Corps for their good work over the years. Naturally I also congratulate Senator Henry on her receipt of a doctorate.

We have now come to the most critical period in negotiations in Northern Ireland. It is make or break time. The marching season is also beginning with the Drumcree march this weekend. Clearly it is a critical time and we must once more offer our support and good wishes to all participants for a satisfactory outcome. I agree we should tentatively allow time for a debate in the House because there should be an outcome this weekend. It is not certain whether it will be successful. Hopefully it will not be a failure. As this will be the only House sitting it would be appropriate for us to invite the Taoiseach to the House and debate it.

Could the Leader of the House clarify the Order of Business for next week? We have no indication of it yet. Normally by now the schedule would have been circulated.

Mr. Dardis

On behalf of the Progressive Democrats, I join in the expressions of sympathy to the families of the young men who lost their lives in the helicopter crash in Tramore and to their Air Corps colleagues and the general officer commanding the Air Corps. We take for granted the work these people do. They put themselves at considerable risk. This was a very routine mission on which one would not have expected a tragedy of this nature. I heard on the radio this morning that this helicopter had flown 450 missions and saved 150 lives. That underlines the depth of commitment and value of the service which these men provide. We are very grateful to them for that.

I agree with Senator Manning on his comments regarding events in Stormont. We cannot make any great positive intervention at the moment other than to congratulate the Taoiseach and the British Prime Minister for their patience and persistence in the matter and to hope it will be resolved satisfactorily today. As democratic politicians, we all undertake compromises which are central to the heart of the democratic process. I hope everybody involved in the talks in Stormont will bear that in mind. I agree it might be useful to review the outcome of the talks at the earliest possible opportunity.

There is considerable urgency about the legislation required to set up the beef assurance scheme, even taking into account that it will still have to go to the Dáil. We need to emphasise the green image of Ireland and the requirement that our food be of the highest possible standard, particularly after events in Belgium and the difficulties in Spain. Passing this legislation through the House would send out a useful and powerful message from a marketing point of view. While the Bill has been published only in the past week, it has been debated widely over an extended period in farming circles and the farming press. It is not as though we were unaware of what would be in the legislation. Most people in the agricultural sector would have known the main thrust of the Bill before it was published. There would be merit in disposing of it.

An Cathaoirleach

As the Air Corps is based in Baldonnel in Senator Ridge's area, Senator Ridge wishes to be associated with the expressions of sympathy.

Mrs. Ridge

It is based in the centre of my constituency and I attend the annual blessing of the fleet. I extend my deepest sympathy to Colonel Hogan and all ranks at Baldonnel and the families. It is a terrible tragedy.

Mr. Norris

I join my colleagues in expressing sympathy to the members of the Air Corps. There is tragic irony about it because they only recently received the Dauphin helicopter and happy pictures appeared in yesterday's news papers. Then after being involved in a successful rescue mission and while returning from this errand of mercy, the fatal accident occurred. There is a deep irony and tragedy in this and we all feel sympathy for the relatives.

I note there is a report from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. Could it be taken on board that we need to look at the provisions under which the debates in this House are edited? I understand this arose before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. The situation is completely unsatisfactory. My understanding is that now the situation obtains that the Editor of Debates can change whatever he or she likes, drop whole paragraphs and edit the rough humour if a little bit of bawdy hits the floor here and there. We have censorship, not an actual record. This is very worrying. I have no doubt they are operating professionally and within the guidelines. Those guidelines are wrong and must be changed if we are to have an accurate record of this House. It is not fair to the people who transcribe or to the Editor of Debates. We have a responsibility to ensure there is an accurate record of what happens in this House. It is a very serious matter.

An Cathaoirleach

This matter was discussed at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges meeting on Wednesday and I am sure Senator Norris's representative on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, Senator O'Toole, will report back to Senator Norris.

Mr. Norris

He has and that is why I am worried.

I ask the Leader if something can be done about parking in the Houses of the Oireachtas, which is mad. Ministers' cars are parked all over the place, although they have their own car park. It is good that former representatives of both Houses can park here, but they should have a particular car park. Ease of access should be ensured for Members of both Houses and we should be given priority. I do not know why an underground car park cannot be built at the same time as the new offices. Something should be done about it.

Mr. Connor

I want to be associated with the expressions of sympathy to the families of the unfortunate young members of the Air Corps who died in Waterford today.

The House should note with regret and express its sympathy on the death of Lord William Whitelaw who was the first Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, appointed in 1970 after the abolition of the Stormont Parliament. Of all the Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland, he understood best Northern Ireland and Ireland. Perhaps with the exception of the current incumbent, Lord Whitelaw made the greatest contribution to trying to bring about peace in Northern Ireland. It is an irony of history that one of the architects, at least on the British side, of the Sunningdale Agreement, died on the day, almost 30 years later, when so much was being done to put an agreement like Sunningdale in place again. It is right that we should sympathise with his relatives.

I object to the finalisation of the National Beef Assurance Scheme Bill which will come before the House next week.

An Cathaoirleach

That matter is not ordered for today. We are discussing today's Order of Business. I allowed some latitude to the leader of the Opposition and the Leader of the House to raise this matter. I am sure the points have been noted. I will not allow a debate on business which may or may not be ordered for next week. I am not aware if the matter has been ordered for next week.

Mr. Connor

You can rest assured I will not engage in a debate about it. I object to its completion in this House next week.

I ask the Leader to assure the House that if we are not in a position to complete Committee and Report Stages of the Immigration Bill next week, it will not be guillotined as happened in the other House. Many Members want to contribute and there will be many amendments and, therefore, time should be allowed to complete it at a later date if it is not completed by next Tuesday or Wednesday when the House rises for the summer. I got such an assurance yesterday from the Leader and I hope he is in a position to reiterate it today.

Mr. Finneran

I ask the Leader to arrange for a debate on the EU habitats directive and its implementation. I also want to know how special areas of conservation will impinge on farmers and landowners, particularly those in the Shannon basin area and in County Roscommon. Three categories of farmers and landowners are involved, bog owners, people who have callows along the rivers and people with sand hills. Further consultation is necessary because this will involve major financial losses. If change is not forthcoming, the habitats directive will cause job losses, accelerate the flight from the land and prevent the development of agri-tourism. This is a matter of great importance to the affected areas. I ask the Leader to arrange for a full debate on this matter with the Minister as soon as possible.

Mr. Ross

With regard to Nos. 1 and 2, I am a little uneasy about the tendency in this House to propose that matters of importance should be passed without debate.

Mr. Norris

They wanted to pass the Copyright and Related Rights Bill without debate.

Mr. Ross

The two items in question are important. There is a precedent for discussing and debating changes in the terms of reference of important committees of this House. This describes the items which are to be moved by direction of the European Union as matters of national importance. I cannot understand why we are being asked to pass them without debate. This is dangerous. Senator Norris touched on this issue when he spoke about the Editor of Debates and I touched on it yesterday, but I did not get a reply from the Leader. I ask him to give me a reply today.

It seems that all matters to do with procedure and privileges are carried out in a cosy atmosphere behind closed doors, that we should not discuss them in the House and that when they come before the House they should be passed without debate. That is not adequate. The Leader should give me a reply to the question I asked him yesterday about whether meetings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges could be held in public and that would solve this problem.

An Cathaoirleach

The matter Senator Ross raised with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has been deferred to the next meeting of the committee. As regards the matter raised by Senator Norris, I will write to him setting out the decision as a result of the discussion of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Mr. Norris

I hope it will look at amending the rules.

Mr. Ross

I was aware of the reply but it does not answer the question I asked the Leader about holding these meetings in public in future.

An Cathaoirleach

As regards Nos. 1 and 2, the report was circulated yesterday to all Senators. The effect of the proposed changes is that where the Joint Committee on European Affairs considers it more appropriate, it can refer some proposals for EU legislation to other committees for their consideration.

Mr. Ross

I am aware of that.

Mr. Dardis

On a point of order, all committees of the House debate matters. The reason we have the committees is that we do not to have to bring those matters to the floor of the House. That is where the appropriate debate takes place, as it did in this case, and all parties are represented on the committees.

Mr. Finneran

There is no publicity at committees.

Mr. Glynn

As a spokesman for defence matters, I add my voice to that of the Leader and the leaders of the other groups in expressing my deepest sympathy to the families of those who lost their lives in this morning's tragedy.

Mr. Cassidy

Senators Manning, Quinn, Costello, Connor, Norris, Dardis and Glynn expressed their sympathies on the deaths this morning.

Senator Manning and others called for the Taoiseach to come to the House next week for a debate on Northern Ireland, regardless of how the talks conclude. I will endeavour to have the Taoiseach present to give us an up-to-date report on the Northern talks. I hope there will be a successful conclusion. We all knew it would go to the wire and that decommissioning would be the stumbling block. While we all call for courage and commitment, no one can doubt the determination of the Taoiseach, the British Prime Minister, President Clinton and his team and all the leaders in the North to finalise the decommissioning issue which will allow progress to be made and bring lasting peace to the island. We will have a debate in the House either next Tuesday or Wednesday and I hope the Taoiseach will be present.

Senators inquired about the business for next week. The House has been sitting for four days this week and we have had a high level of debate on a large amount of legislation. For that reason it is difficult to order the legislation for next week. We learned this morning that the Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1999, will be taken in the autumn because the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is unable to return from the Northern Ireland talks. Until the legislation is passed by the Dáil, where it was initiated, we cannot discuss it. I understand the difficulties of Senator Manning and the leaders of the other groups on the Opposition side. I have the same difficulties on the Government side. I do not think anyone minds being discommoded because of the Northern Ireland talks.

Mr. Manning

That is not the reason that we do not have the business.

Mr. Cassidy

An Cathaoirleach

I have no control over the reply the Leader gives.

Mr. Dardis

On a point of order, Senator Manning accused the Leader of lying. He said it twice.

Mr. Cosgrave

He is correct.

Mr. Dardis

It is not a parliamentary phrase and it should be withdrawn.

An Cathaoirleach

The Chair did not hear it.

Mr. Manning

I will not accuse the Leader of telling a lie, I withdraw that. However, what the Leader is saying is not accurate.

Mr. Cassidy

I have been told by my Whip that Senators on the Opposition side, from the Fine Gael Party, were looking for all Stages to be taken.

A Senator

Untrue.

Mr. Cassidy

I have always been very easy. I am willing to discuss matters and to facilitate Members. I facilitated Members in no small way this week. I have always sought and received co-operation in the past. If there is agreement to deal with a Bill and it is possible to take it next week, we should do so. However, if it is not possible to deal with it next week, we will not push it. The Leader of the Opposition knows that I have an open door and he can discuss the Order of Business and proposed legislation with me.

Mr. Manning

I asked the question this morning and I did not get an answer. The Leader gave the answer when I pressed him. That is not being open. This Bill has 30 sections, we do not agree to take all Stages next week and we see no reason for it. If the Leader insists on doing that, we will not co-operate.

An Cathaoirleach

That is next week's busi ness. Senator Manning has made his point and the matter can be resolved in discussions between the Whips and the Leaders.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Tá

Bohan, Eddie.Cassidy, Donie.Dardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Gibbons, Jim.

Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ormonde, Ann.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Connor, John.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Doyle, Avril.

Henry, Mary.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.Quinn, Feargal.Ridge, Thérèse.Ross, Shane.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T.Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Norris and Ross.

Question declared carried.

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht - Friday, 2 Jul 1999

Order of Business.

A Senator

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Friday, 2 Jul 1999