Today's Order of Business is Nos. 2 and 3. No. 2, statements on the White Paper on Rural Development, shall be taken from 11 a.m. to 1.30 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 10 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed eight minutes. Senators may share time. No. 3, statements on Northern Ireland (resumed) shall be taken from 1.30 p.m. to 3.30 p.m., with contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes and of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes.
Order of Business.
I note that No. 1 has been passed and I concur with Senator Ross in hoping that this matter, which has been around for almost three years and which has absorbed the attention of four Members of this House and the Clerk Assistant over a very long period, can be expedited in a fair and reasonable way and that there will be no more delays. That has my support.
On the Order of Business, yesterday I asked the Leader about inviting the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to the House to discuss the future of the Arts Council, to which he agreed. However, a much bigger and more immediate problem is the shortage of archaeologists which has the double effect of holding up some needed developments. If the process is speeded up without an adequate number of archaeologists, vital and irreplaceable parts of our heritage may be lost. It is a problem and would benefit from a public airing in this House. I am not blaming the Minister for this. It is one of the consequences of development and we could find irreparable damage done in the rush to expedite what others would see as industrial development.
I would like to draw attention to the Lower House where last night the Government accepted on Second Stage another Fine Gael Private Members' Bill, Deputy Alan Shatter's Bill on smoking. I ask the Leader of the House in the same spirit to approach the Shannon River Council Bill in this House.
It was. We led in that.
The Leader has a habit of being provocative on the Order of Business and it leads him into trouble at times. I am trying as always to be as helpful and constructive as possible. I ask the Leader, once and for all, to clear up the confusion. People have been told that this Bill will be referred to some committee of the House. That simply is not possible and if it is being said it is not true. Will the Leader give a definite commitment as to when Committee Stage will be taken? We all agree on this Bill and people throughout the country have invested great hope in it. All we ask for from the Leader is a definite date over the next couple of weeks on which we can begin Committee Stage.
I thank Senator Cosgrave for bringing No. 1 before the House and I welcome the assurances that it will be dealt with as soon as possible. I also thank Senator Manning, the committee chairman and the other committee members for the time and energy invested in this report and I thank the Clerk Assistant who acted as clerk to the committee.
In Senator O'Toole's absence, I support Senator Manning's call for a definite date for Committee Stage of the Shannon River Council Bill. The process of dealing with the Bill is becoming so protracted that the Shannon will have flooded again by the time we get around to taking Committee Stage. I hope the Leader will give us a definite date for Committee Stage.
There are two bones of contention on the Order Paper, namely the Shannon River Council Bill and the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill. We are blue in the face asking the Leader to seek clarification on when the Government intends to proceed with this legislation or why it is not prepared to proceed with it. These Bills are very important. Yesterday the Leader stated that he would come back to the House in regard to the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill. Has he obtained any information on that? I urge him not to allow a further Seanad sitting to pass without providing the House with information on these items.
I concur with Senator Manning in regard to asking the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands to come into the House to discuss various matters in relation to the Arts Council and the plethora of resignations occurring there. The Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, is not the only person who is losing people from various bodies. We should debate the new guidelines on archaeology and the number of archaeologists. I would welcome a general debate on the arts and the Minister's general remit.
The issue about which I am most concerned is the one which appears on the front pages of today's newspapers, namely, the Minister for Finance's statement accusing the Irish League of Credit Unions of hypocrisy and tax evasion. That is an outrageous statement when the Irish League of Credit Unions simply sought to have the recommendations of the working group, established by the Minister, implemented. I propose that the Order of Business be amended to allow us to discuss this issue. We should spend the entire day discussing this matter as it is one which has been ongoing for the past two years. The Minister for Finance is at odds with the Taoiseach and is levelling the very serious charge of tax eva sion at the Irish League of Credit Unions. Some 1.9 million people in this country are members of credit unions.
There is no motion on the Order Paper on credit unions. Is the Senator moving an amendment to the Order of Business?
Yes. I propose the following amendment:
That statements on credit unions be taken before the conclusion of business today.
I support Senator Manning's request for a debate on matters archaeological and the report of the Heritage Council. There is an important issue at stake here which was raised some time ago by a member of the Opposition. People who build in rural areas find themselves held up through no fault of their own. Nobody is suggesting that sites of archaeological importance should not be protected but something must be done to expedite the backlog. The need for consultation and the development of guidelines in this area is referred to in the report of the Heritage Council. We may have a contribution to make in regard to the development of those guidelines. I am aware of cases in which it has proved impossible to obtain archaeologists to carry out the necessary preparatory work on sites. This bureaucratic hold-up must be addressed.
I ask the Leader to convey our congratulations to the Taoiseach on his visit to East Timor. I am sure Members of this House, which has played a very constructive role in this developing situation, will welcome the Taoiseach's announcement in regard to the establishment of a permanent aid post in Dili. It is very important that we do not assume that everything is now all right in East Timor simply because the Indonesians have left. We must continue to take an interest in East Timor.
I join with my colleagues, Senators Ross and Henry, in welcoming the fact that the Trinity College Dublin and the University of Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Bill, 1997, is on the Order Paper, having successfully passed through a rather tedious Committee Stage. This House played a very important and constructive role in this Bill and we should be proud of our achievement.
We have discussed East Timor on several occasions in this House. The Seanad plays a very important role in highlighting the trampling of human rights in that part of the world which is a human rights blackspot We should wholeheartedly welcome the Taoiseach's announcement of Government funding for the opening of an aid office in East Timor. Ireland can set an example for other countries in this regard. We often feel that the international community does not respond adequately or with sufficient speed to these situations. The fact that the Government has given this lead is particularly important at this time.
I draw Members' attention to a very serious announcement made last night in Northern Ireland where 1,700 workers in Harland and Wolff, one of the biggest industries in the North, have been issued with protective notice. This is a situation in which we could use the cross-Border bodies to exchange information. Perhaps the Ministers for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and Public Enterprise could travel to the North to offer goodwill, advice and support in these very difficult circumstances, the likes of which we have not experienced here for a very long time.
I would like to be associated with the congratulations extended to the Taoiseach on his visit to East Timor. I also congratulate the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mrs. Robinson, on her decision to visit Chechnya in which terrible atrocities have been committed. If America had carried out those atrocities, there would be protests in every town and village in this country and throughout the world, but there appears to be some kind of benevolent attitude towards Russia. It is time the atrocities carried out by the Russians were highlighted.
I want to turn to an old chestnut of mine and ask the Leader to arrange a debate on alcohol abuse. Today, according to media reports, a fine young man is dead as a result of alcohol abuse. There was a case in the High Court recently where a murder had been committed as a result of alcohol consumption.
The Senator's remark about the young man who is dead is offensive and hurtful to his family and is totally out of order. I appreciate that the Senator did not intend to cause offence.
If I am wrong, I apologise, but I was merely referring to the content of media reports. Alcohol abuse causes a great deal of trouble and hardship, and I feel very strongly about this issue. We seem to think that drink is acceptable. I appeal to the Government to ban the advertisement of alcohol.
The Senator has made his case for a debate during which these matters can be raised.
I join with Senator Manning and others in regard to the need to protect our archaeological environment. The designation of huge amounts of money in the national development plan for infrastructural road building projects will pose problems if projects are delayed because of the need to carry out archaeological digs. There seems to be a lack of planning and archaeologists should be appointed immediately to ensure the projects for which we have been waiting decades will go ahead. I compliment the Taoiseach on his announcement to fund an office in Dili. I pay tribute to Senator Norris who raised public awareness of East Timor many years ago.
Hear, hear.
I join in the request for a debate on the scarcity of archaeologists, which may endanger proposed projects, particularly the national development plan which in turn could have an effect on the development of primary and secondary routes and motorways. The availability of adequate back-up staff, such as archaeologists, is vital to ensure the implementation of the development plan. I compliment the Government on the extra 100,000 people in employment. However, we do not want a shortage of archaeologists. I agree with Senator Manning that we must conserve our heritage and ensure none of it is damaged. However, we must also ensure the country is allowed to develop and that we benefit from the £40 billion earmarked in the development plan.
Mr. Ryan
I second Senator Costello's amendment to the Order of Business. We need a thorough examination of the role of credit unions to discover why the Minister for Finance is conducting a profoundly vindictive campaign against them. I would love to hear my colleagues on the Fianna Fáil benches defend his most recent remarks. I have no idea what is wrong with the Minister. I used to know him very well but he has developed a philosophy based on the needs of the powerful and the rich.
That is nonsense.
Mr. Ryan
Anyone who does not know the difference between a credit union and a bank does not know anything about either.
There is no need to go into such detail.
Mr. Ryan
On the Trinity Bill, I have a great deal of sympathy with those who had to struggle through it. However, it is about time this House disposed of these issues more efficiently. We have far more important matters to deal with than the foibles of a 400 years old eccentric institution which insists on having everything translated from Latin to English, including obscure references to "We, the British Royal Family".
At least we can understand it.
Mr. Ryan
If Trinity College wishes to continue, it is free to do so.
I thank the Senator – we are most relieved.
It is a Labour Party Bill.
Senator Ryan is being deliberately provocative.
Senator Ryan was on the Independent benches when the Bill was introduced.
Mr. Ryan
A Chathaoirligh, I do not dispute your ruling that I am being provocative. The merest criticism of Trinity College provokes its Senators beyond endurance.
We enjoy it.
Mr. Ryan
We are not allowed criticise Trinity College – it is above criticism. It is anachronistic and as long as 80 per cent of its funds come from the taxpayers, the Houses of the Oireachtas are entitled to talk about it in whatever language we wish.
As long as it is complimentary.
Mr. Ryan
Last night I attended a meeting on the crisis in Burma. I ask the Leader to allocate time for a debate on the issue, which has implications for us because I know Burmese exiles who have suggested that some EU applicant countries are less than careful in observing the EU embargo on arms exports to Burma. There are a number of other implications for Irish policy which deserve to be discussed. Burma is a particularly appalling country.
I support Senator Costello's request for information on the Telecommunications Infrastructure Bill. I regularly say that this form of infrastructure is more important than roads or railways. I do not understand why it is not being dealt with.
If we are to have a debate on foreign affairs, we should do so soon. A former prisoner of the Bosnian camps addressed the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs yesterday. She asked that we do everything we can to speed up the proceedings of the human rights court in The Hague which has been sitting since 1993. Only 96 people have been indicted and six convicted – two of those six have committed suicide and two cannot be found. Some 36 people are in jail awaiting trial and it could be another four years before they come before the courts. Nine judges are alternating between two courts. We must find some way of expediting the proceedings of the court so that those who perpetrated atrocities in Bosnia will be given a fair trial soon. The same applies to Rwanda. I was delighted to hear a South African female judge talking about the changes made to the definition of rape so that convictions of statutory rape can be made without the victim having to go through the usual ordeal.
I compliment the Taoiseach on the establishment of the first permanent aid office in East Timor. The extra £1 million allocated yesterday will be of tremendous benefit.
Given yesterday's confusion regarding the National Beef Assurance Scheme Bill and the amendment which did not appear on the list—
There was no confusion whatsoever. As I explained yesterday, the amendment to which the Senator refers was withdrawn in the Dáil. There was no question of an amendment which was agreed in the Dáil not appearing on the list of amendments before this House. I will not allow further discussion on the matter.
I intend tabling a Private Members' motion on the matter later today. I know I have the full support of the Government parties and the Minister. I ask the Leader to ensure it is put on the Order Paper as soon as possible.
I share the concern expressed by Senator Ross about notice being given to 1,700 workers in Harland and Wolff. Even though the Executive is suspended, at a time when the economy is strong and there is full employment we should do whatever we can to assist in securing employment for those in Northern Ireland, including offering the services of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment.
I support Senator Costello's call for a debate on credit unions. They provide a wonderful service throughout the country, especially during the years spent trying to get rid of moneylenders. When will the Minister for the Environment and Local Government publish the long promised local government Bill? Will it be this session?
Last week we requested a debate on waste management, particularly incineration, gasification and other alternatives, and the Leader wholeheartedly agreed to such a debate, as his is wont. Will the Leader give the House a definitive date or timeframe for that debate?
Senators Manning, Henry, Costello and Dardis expressed their concerns about the Arts Council. I will arrange a debate on the council after St. Patrick's Day, when the various issues, particularly the shortage of archaeologists, can be discussed. Senator Manning and others inquired about the Shannon River Council Bill. I will see what I can do in this regard and make further inquiries after St. Patrick's Day as to how we can progress the Bill.
Senators Ryan, Norris, Ó Murchú, Lanigan and the other Senators who have been vocal in the House for many years about East Timor will welcome the fact that the Taoiseach is visiting that country today and will open an Irish office there. Such support from a country such as Ireland, which has suffered so much over the past 100 years, is a great example to other countries. The same type of example was proposed in last night's Private Members' debate, which was one of the best debates I have heard in a long time. If any country needs an example, it need only look to the work that has been done here over recent years and the efforts that have been made by the Irish people. Like many other Senators, I congratulate the Taoiseach and the Government on their work in encouraging and allocating resources to countries in need of support.
Senators Ross and Chambers expressed their disappointment that Harland and Wolff, one of the biggest employers on the island, has put 1,700 workers on notice. I hope something can be done and that the firm will secure the contract for the Queen Mary II project. Problems such as this on any part of the island are a source of great concern. I will convey the Senators' views to the Tánaiste and the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, after the Order of Business.
Senator Farrell called for a debate on alcohol abuse and asked that the advertising of alcohol be banned. I will convey his views to the Minister and I will arrange a debate on the subject before the Easter recess.
Senators Costello, Ryan and Burke seek to amend the Order of Business. I am aware of their serious concerns but I ask the Senators to postpone this for one day. On the next sitting day the Finance Bill will be before the House and the Senators' views can be aired in the presence of the Minister. I would be pleased to facilitate Senators Burke and Costello on that occasion. If Senator Costello wishes to make his contribution on the Finance Bill earlier than scheduled, I am sure the leaders of all groups could find a way to accommodate that.
Senators Ryan, Lanigan and others called for a wide-ranging debate on foreign affairs to discuss Burma, Rwanda and other regions. I will allocate time for that debate. Senators Ryan and Costello inquired about the telecommunications Bill. I cannot bring that Bill to the House until I am asked to do so by the Government and I have not yet been asked.
Senator Burke inquired about the local government Bill. It is currently with the Office of the Attorney General. My best guess is that it will be available at the end of this session or within the first few weeks of the following session if there is any delay in the Office of the Attorney General. With regard to Senator Coogan's request, there will be a debate on waste management, as the Deputy Leader informed the House last week. However, the House must first deal with the Finance Bill, the Social Welfare Bill and other legislation on which there are time constraints. As soon as they are out of the way, there will be a debate on waste management. It is one of the greatest challenges facing this country and local government.
There will be no problem sitting an extra day.
We are free on any Saturday.
Senator Costello moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That statements on the credit unions be taken before the conclusion of business today." Is the amendment being pressed?
Yes.
Amendment put.
Tá
|
Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino). |
Hayes, Tom.Henry, Mary.Jackman, Mary.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan. |
Níl
|
Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Tom. |
Gibbons, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Kiely, Daniel.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Walsh, Jim. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators Costello and Ryan; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons.
Amendment declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.