Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 22 Mar 2001

Vol. 165 No. 15

Under Age Drinking: Statements.

Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children (Dr. Moffatt): I thank you for giving me the opportunity to state the position of the Department of Health and Children on what it considers to be one of the most important public health issues facing us, that of under age drinking.

We live in a culture where alcohol consumption is part and parcel of the social lives of many people. For the majority this poses no difficulty. There is one group however, who, according to recent evidence available to us, are engaging in behaviour which is both detrimental to their own health and to the quality of life of those around them. It is clear from this evidence that too many of our young people are engaged in high risk drinking.

For many years we have known there is a high level of alcohol misuse among young people in Ireland. The survey of lifestyle, attitudes and nutrition, SLÁN, and health behaviour in school aged children, HBSC, surveys which were carried out on behalf of the Department highlighted these problems and anecdotal and other evidence has suggested that the problem has been getting worse.

Our fears on this were confirmed by the publication of the recent ESPAD report. ESPAD, which stands for European School Survey on Alcohol and other Drugs, is a project administered by a group of Swedish researchers with a study manager in each country. This survey of 15 to 16 year old adolescents was first carried out in 1994 and at that time 23 countries from across Europe took part. In this recently published study, carried out in 1999, 30 countries took part. The statistics make for disturbing reading.

More 16 year olds are drinking now than in 1995. Girls are drinking as often and as much as boys. Both binge drinking and drunkenness have increased. Girls are drinking much more spirits than before. Some 42% of girls reported drinking spirits three or more times in the last 30 days compared with 22% in 1995. It is clear that the new range of spirit based drinks are extremely popular. This negative trend continues across a wide range of categories. When comparing our results to those of other European countries, the news is also disappointing. Irish teenagers are close to the top in many of the categories in the survey. The number of occasions of drinking, of being drunk, and of binge drinking all place Ireland with the highest in Europe.

While the news is bad it is important to remember there are many 16 year olds who are not drinking and abusing alcohol. Well over half of them are not into drinking, at least not with any regularity. These young people need to be supported in the decisions they are taking and those who are abusing alcohol need to be made aware of the dangers of their drinking. Now that the problem is clear, the question is what do we do about it.

At the recent World Health Organisation Ministerial Conference which the Minister, Deputy Martin, attended, a Declaration on Young People and Alcohol was unanimously adopted. This called for a range of measures to protect young people from the pressures to drink and to reduce alcohol related harm. These included limiting availability, pricing mechanisms and greater curbs on advertising, sponsorship and promotion. These are issues which we are actively examining.

A number of studies presented at the conference in Sweden confirmed the widely accepted belief among health professionals that greater availability of alcohol leads to greater consump tion and, ultimately, to higher levels of alcohol related harm. This trend is reflected in Ireland where alcohol consumption has increased as has related harm, especially since the mid-1990s with the strong economic growth which has provided more disposable income. Availability has also increased through exemptions and longer opening hours. A recent study commissioned by the Department put the estimated economic cost of alcohol related harm in 1999 at £1.7 billion. These costs attributable to alcohol relate to health care, road accidents, crime, loss of output due to absences from work and transfer payments due to inability to work. This situation is clearly unacceptable.

The issue of access to alcohol continues to be a source of concern. Measures established by the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 2000, provide substantial fines and penalties for publicans who serve under age drinkers and people over the age of 18 who buy alcohol for minors. These measures are to be welcomed and I am confident they will prove successful over time.

Despite the existence of an advertising code young people continue to be exposed to the constant promotion and advertising of alcohol. It is hardly surprising that many children are experimenting with alcohol and many adolescents are drinking to get drunk. Alcohol advertising emphasises the desirable aspects of drinking, portraying alcohol consumption as a safe and problem free practice and ignores the potential risks and negative consequences for the individual. The Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland's code is now under review and the Department has been asked to make a submission to the authority setting out a number of recommendations regarding the placement and content of advertisements, compliance with the code and the promotion of alcohol.

The Department of Health and Children has also commissioned research into the impact of alcohol advertising on young people. This research will be available shortly and will inform further action in this area. International research clearly identifies a link between exposure to advertising and alcohol consumption among young people and adults. The recommendations made by the Department would, if adopted, go some way towards offsetting this exposure.

A range of other concrete actions is being taken by the Department to tackle the issue of alcohol abuse among young people. The health promotion unit of my Department has developed, in association with the drinks industry group, a programme on the responsible serving of alcohol. This training programme is designed to enable those in the trade to better recognise under age drinkers, to better handle intoxicated customers and to inform staff of their legal obligations. The programme is fully supportive of the national age card introduced by the Garda Síochána. It is based on an Australian model which proved very successful and we have equally high expectations of the Irish programme. Ownership of the scheme now lies with the drinks industry which will promote the benefits of the training to its members.

The severity of alcohol abuse by many young people has been recognised for some time by the Department. An alcohol awareness campaign was recently launched by the Minister, Deputy Martin, targeting young, high risk drinkers in its first year. This campaign aims to increase the debate around the issue of alcohol abuse and to encourage young people to examine their lifestyles.

A national seminar was held at which over 100 stakeholders gathered to discuss this issue. These included the Garda, health professionals, parents, teachers, community groups, representatives of the drinks industry and many others. Examples of successful local initiatives which tackle problems such as binge drinking and under age drinking were presented. For initiatives such as the alcohol awareness campaign to succeed it is vital that support comes from stakeholders such as these at a local level and we now have that support.

Another element of this campaign involved the development of a website, coolchoices.ie, dedicated to informing young people of the dangers associated with alcohol abuse. This website, however, does not just focus on the dangers of alcohol and its abuse, it also adopts a positive approach in promoting alternatives to drinking. These alternatives come from young people themselves and the website actively encourages young people to submit their own ideas and comments. These activities prompt young people to examine their behaviour and promote healthier lifestyle choices. The suggestions and comments submitted by young people are informing the future design and content of the site.

Over the coming months other initiatives targeting young people are planned. These will include events on college campuses and in the workplace. This sustained effort will, in addition to engaging young people, encourage all of us to review our drinking behaviour and our attitudes to alcohol.

Schools based programmes continue to play a central role in the education of young people around alcohol issues. September last saw the introduction of social, personal and health education, a new curriculum subject at junior certificate level. A core module of this subject examines alcohol and drugs.

We in Ireland were among the first in Europe to develop life skills support material for use in primary and second level schools. These adopt a holistic approach, imparting the skills young people need to make the decisions they are faced with every day and to withstand the pressures of being a young person in Ireland in 2001.

In addition to these programmes, all schools are encouraged to develop a comprehensive alcohol and drug policy. This approach needs to involve parents, teachers and pupils themselves. Policies such as these are becoming more common in the workplace and it is appropriate for schools to adopt similar measures.

The findings from the SLÁN, HBSC and ESPAD studies confirm that the abuse of alcohol by young people constitutes a major public health problem. The amount and frequency of drinking are of concern and the results show that the trends are getting worse. We recognise that we have a problem which we are committed to tackling. A range of policies is in place or coming on stream and these, together with a tougher stance on issues such as advertising and availability, measures which have been successful in other countries, will help to encourage young people to change their behaviour.

We must all examine our attitude towards alcohol. As a society we must ask ourselves whether we are satisfied to drift along, complaining that things are getting worse yet reluctant to make substantive changes. Alternatively have we reached a point when we are prepared to say, "Stop, it's time to take action"? Alcohol abuse is a social issue and we as a society must decide where our values lie.

Mrs. Jackman

I welcome the Minister of State. The 1999 ESPAD report, Alcohol and Other Drug Use Among Students in 30 European Countries, cost a lot of money to produce but it is difficult to obtain a copy.

It may sound alarmist but what comes through from the report is that little has changed with regard to the drinking habits of young people in Ireland. We have remained in the top group since 1995 when the first comprehensive study was carried out. However, as a woman, one of the most alarming aspects of the report is the finding that the increase in drinking is predominantly among girls, particularly young girls. This is a shocking finding which we must examine. We are not discussing cigarette smoking in this debate but it is interesting that the same findings were reported in the survey on cigarette smoking.

I wish to be positive about the matter but only one small ray of light came from the report, namely, that the use of drugs by students in Ireland has reduced slightly. This may be due to the tremendous efforts of Governments, schools, parents, the drugs squad and others which promote greater awareness. However, the report highlights that it is easier than ever to obtain all kinds of drugs throughout the country.

We cannot contradict the findings of this report as it was a collaborative scientific study. One positive aspect was the forthcoming response of students in the 15 to 16 year old age bracket. The project set out to conduct schools based surveys as that was the way to obtain the relevant cohort of people in a supportive environment and free of peer and parent pressure. The students answered questions honestly and Irish students were very forthcoming in their responses to the research. We must view as positive the manner in which young people respond to questions and the fact that they are not fearful of stating the number of times they have been drunk. More often than not, young people use spirits and beer and not wine. This is probably due to the fact that wine is not one of the more popular drinks in Ireland among young people.

It is important to get back to the goal, however. Researchers have stated that the knowledge gained will be important in future when changes in one part of Europe may serve as a forecast for other countries where such changes have not yet appeared, and such trends may also function as incitements for prevention initiatives. There were significant drops in some countries, but not here. We are still up there with Denmark and the United Kingdom in most categories of high alcohol consumption. When we receive reports such as this one it is incumbent upon us to take corrective action by looking at the methodologies employed by countries that showed a reduction in the 1999 survey. They must be doing something positive about reducing drinking, and we cannot resolve the drinking issue alone.

It is interesting to note that the countries where young people consume most alcohol happen to be places we normally associate with having an easy attitude to drink, including the Scandinavian countries, and particularly Denmark which is still up there at the top, with ourselves and the United Kingdom. The trend appears to be increasing towards eastern Europe, as the economic prosperity of those countries, although it is less than ours, has resulted in increased drinking among young people.

In discussing the detail of the research it is no harm to go through some salient points concerning the graphs that are well illustrated throughout this report. As regards changes in alcohol consumption, Ireland is included in the category "alcohol used 40 times or more in a lifetime", recording an increase between 1995 and 1999. Eastern European countries tend to come on board, so the Czech Republic is now included for the first time in the top group along with Finland, Ireland and the United Kingdom where increases have occurred. Interestingly, both Cyprus and Italy have recorded decreases in drinking, so perhaps we should examine what happened in those places between 1995 and 1999.

I am frightened by the statistics relating to an increase in drinking by girls. In the category "Alcohol used 20 times or more during the last 12 months" we are still up in the high figures. There has been no change in the category "Alcohol used ten times or more during the last 30 days", but we are still among the high consumption figures. The overall increase is, however, more pronounced among girls.

Denmark, Ireland, Malta and the United Kingdom continue to be among the countries with the highest prevalence of alcohol use per 30-day period. In 1999, as in 1995, Ireland, Denmark and Cyprus held the top position in the category "Beer consumption: three times or more during the last 30 days". Cyprus and Ireland used to be ranked second and third, but now the Czech Republic is in there, with the United Kingdom.

I will not refer to wine consumption because it does not impact much on us. The statistics concerning the consumption of spirits are frightening. Increases recurred in Cyprus, Denmark, Ireland, Malta, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and the United Kingdom in the category "Spirits consumption: three times or more during the last 30 days". Whereas consumption of spirits was evenly spread among boys and girls in six of those countries, the opposite was true both here and in the United Kingdom, where the increase was larger among girls. Girls were in the majority both in the 1995 and 1999 surveys.

In 1995 and 1999, Denmark and Ireland recorded the highest figures in the category "Consumption of 101 centilitres of beer, or more". Sweden used to be the top country in this category. In the past, Sweden was regarded very much as a country where a high percentage of the population drank, but it is now surpassed by Ireland. According to this survey, the highest increase in the consumption of spirits was observed in Ireland.

This frightening report cannot be pushed aside. We are a tiny country participating among 30 other states, yet we are still up there, recording the highest increase in the category "Eleven centilitres of spirits on the last drinking occasion". Girls are in the majority in this category also. Denmark, Norway and Ireland recorded the highest increases in the category "drunkenness, 20 times or more in a lifetime". It is very depressing. In every single category, except for wine drinking, Ireland is among the top countries for consumption.

I repeat that there has been no improvement between 1995 and 1999, in the hope that parents, teachers, politicians and the public will be aware of this report. It is not just a newspaper headline that will come and go.

Denmark and Ireland also recorded the largest increases in the category "Drunkenness, three times or more during the last 30 days". It is not sufficient to provide a statistic and say that both Denmark and Ireland are up there among the top consumers. This pattern is consistent for all types of alcohol, apart from wine, and no improvement has been recorded between 1995 and 1999.

I was horrified by the statistics on binge drinking, which is classified as "five drinks in a row on at least three occasions during the last 30 days". Ireland is again among the top countries, including Denmark and the United Kingdom. In 1995 and 1999, the top group comprised Denmark, Ireland, Poland and the United Kingdom.

For the purposes of the survey, respondents were asked at what age they began drinking and what their drinking patterns were like at the age of 13. Both Norway and Ireland recorded increases in the category "Drunk at the age of 13, or younger", whereas decreases occurred in Cyprus and Italy. In this category in most countries boys were in the majority, but the proportion of boys and girls was equal in Ireland. In 1999, three countries showed particularly high figures for this category – sadly, they were Denmark, the United Kingdom and Finland. Ireland did not hit the top three but it was not very far from them.

Even though we are discussing drinking, it is important to refer briefly to the prevalence for using illicit drugs. I began by stating that there was a slight decrease in drug taking by Irish youths, but we are up there among the highest consumers. The report found a slight decrease in the consumption of all drugs, cannabis in particular, but that decrease was only found among boys, so girls are still at risk. Ireland recorded a slight decrease in the category "life-time use of any illicit drug other than cannabis". That is possibly because of interventions across the community. Ireland also figures in the statistics for the use of inhalants.

The statistics relating to the availability of drugs are frightening also. Ireland is among the top five countries in the category "proportion of students who perceive the availability of drugs to be very easy or fairly easy". There is no question but that drugs can be found easily by young people. As regards LSD and any other drugs named in the report, we have been there, done that, and had access to them. To summarise the report, girls drink more often and in larger quantities than boys in Ireland and the United Kingdom.

The Minister mentioned sponsorship, promotion, responsible serving of alcohol, and schools-based information programmes, but they are not enough. I worked as a teacher from 1994 to 1997, so it is not long ago that I was teaching 15 and 16 year olds. They had no problem in telling me they had easy access to alcohol. According to the report, while other nationalities were drinking in parks, at home or in other people's houses, Irish boys and girls were drinking in pubs. They said that was the only area where they had access to alcohol, whereas in other countries such access was always in somebody's home or at parties. The big question is how, at that age and even younger, they are able to get their hands on alcohol.

There is also an increased level of drinking among students who have easy access to off-licence premises. They may be third level students, but if we were to carry out our own survey I am sure we would discover that many of them are second level students. There is such a demand for off-licence drink that students buy in quantities. They buy in crates and move to their rented accommodation, apartments or elsewhere to parties. We may have to deal with the issue of monitoring off-licence premises in relation to access by young people, who can obviously consume both within pubs and outside them.

It is a sad indictment that, despite the emphasis on a holistic approach to health, social and personal development and moderation, we are still not getting the message across. Can we liaise with other countries which have positive interventions and similar lifestyles, where there has been a decrease? Perhaps the situation in Italy or Sweden could be studied. There is no shortage of information. We should avail of all expertise which may be available at EU level, such as the appropriate committee of the European Parliament.

Unless we take positive steps now, we may be even more horrified when the next report comes out in four years' time. The collaborators in this report said they would prefer to have reports more frequently than at four yearly intervals but the limiting factor is funding. In the interest of better use of funding, we should press for two-yearly reports rather than allowing a problem of heavy drinking by young people to go undetected for as long as four years.

Dr. Fitzpatrick

We do not need reports to tell us how bad the alcohol problem is throughout our society. Alcohol seems to be a central feature of Irish lifestyles. No social occasion is complete without plentiful supplies of alcoholic drinks. The drinks industry has a strong economic input to Irish life. In the context of under age drinking, we are distinguished from all other European societies by the level of "binge drinking" in Ireland. The problem is apparent on our streets every weekend, and even mid-week, in terms of 16 year olds and upwards in various stages of an alcoholic haze. Anybody visiting an accident and emergency room on any night of the week would be frightened by what they see there. The hospital staff themselves are frightened. Our accident and emergency departments need security people on duty 24 hours a day to protect the staff and the patients.

This is a relatively new development in Irish life, although there have always been problems of over-indulgence in alcohol, with consequent family and social problems. In the Mater Hospital, 25% of all admissions through the casualty department are drink-related. If that element of hospital admissions could be removed, there might not be a problem of lack of hospital beds for people who are ill and who are lying on trollies for 12, 24 or even 36 hours until a bed can be found for them.

To deal with this problem, we need to bring on board all elements of society, from the drinks industry right through to the consumer, to foster a more sane approach to the consumption of alcohol. The Americans have proved that prohibition does not work. It just drove the supply underground and created another industry. The effects of prohibition have never really been shaken off. Once the trade in alcohol passed to the criminal element, that control was never regained. That is obviously not a route we should follow.

In the context of dealing with young people, there are a few things we can do. We can make the sale of alcohol contingent upon the production of ID, especially by young people. It is high time that a proper national identity card was introduced. We can also deal with people who knowingly sell alcohol to those under age, or who buy it on their behalf. I am aware of a practice whereby such people will go into the off-licence, purchase alcohol and give it to children. There should be exemplary sanctions against that kind of behaviour.

There should be a curb on the current rampant advertising of alcohol on billboards and television and in newspapers. We should also stop the practice of drinks companies supplying free alcohol to student society functions. The use of vouchers and various other sales promotional methods in pubs, including the euphemistically styled "promotion nights", should be banned. These measures can be taken without much damage to the drinks industry.

We need an educational programme involving the whole apparatus of State, not just teachers and schools, to point out to young people the damage which alcohol abuse can have on their physical and mental health. I quote the following statement from the European Commission on its proposal for a Council regulation on alcohol consumption by children and adolescents:

In the long term, the effect of alcohol on a person's health may be determined by their consumption pattern, that is to say, the drinking behaviour they acquired in their youth. There is evidence that young people who begin regular drinking at an early age, are substantially more likely to develop alcohol dependence later in life than those who begin drinking at a later age. It is therefore important to help young people to acquire behaviour that will minimise the harm associated with the consumption of alcoholic beverage.

This is where the education aspect comes in, to try to minimise the peer pressure on teenagers to drink. They cannot go to a function without finding alcohol freely and cheaply available. We have to break the connection between social enjoyment and the abuse of drink, and I speak as one who enjoys a drink. In moderation, the social use of alcohol can be beneficial, but we are now reaping the results of binge drinking by young people. From my observation in medical practice, I see that the people being admitted to places such as Cuan Mhuire are of a progressively younger age group. It used to be a problem of middle aged people but now it is younger people who are being admitted there. If this has not yet reached the stage of being a national emergency, it is certainly becoming a serious problem in Irish society.

Mr. Farrell

Ar dtús ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an Aire go dtí an Teach seo agus fáilte freisin a chur roimh an Athair Mac Gréil agus a chairde, daoine a rinne a lán agus a bhfuil a lán á dhéanamh acu i gcónaí ar an ábhar seo.

I congratulate the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association on its magnificent report. The report in question is not an attempt by the association to be a killjoy or to display an anti-pub bias, it is a factual document which I hope will be sent to every pioneer group and school throughout the country.

In the past people in this country had serious problems with alcohol and we were known as the "drunken Irish" etc. However, that was in the days when shebeens and poitín held sway. We eventually got rid of these and in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s – poverty may have been the cause of this – people were able to enjoy themselves. During that period bouncers on the doors of dance halls would have refused entry to anybody who smelled of drink. If people were not properly dressed – for men this meant wearing a shirt and tie – and smelled of alcohol, they would be removed from the premises. Those halls were packed to capacity. At that stage there were no fire regulations and there was no need for them. People enjoyed themselves because they were sober.

The greatest problem with alcohol abuse today is that it causes much heartbreak. When I see people protesting about ESB pylons and mobile telephone masts, I reflect on the fact that we must face up to our hypocrisy. The two greatest causes of damage to people's health are alcohol and drug abuse. However, people do not protest about this fact because they do not accept it. Three people were killed in a car accident a number of days ago, one of whom was a priest going about his business, and alcohol could possibly have been involved. It is a fact that up to 50% of all accidents involve alcohol. Young people have been fatally stabbed outside discos but nothing has been said about it. If they had been stabbed in amusement arcades or bingo halls, people would march and protest until these places were closed down. Why do people turn a blind eye when trouble is caused by alcohol abuse? Why do those who are so concerned about their health not protest about and discuss this issue?

It is time people woke up and realised the damage being done by alcohol advertisements. As stated on numerous occasions, the drinking of alcohol has been glamorised. I congratulate RTÉ on the great "Prime Time" programme it made on this subject. However, camera crews never seem to film the people who are sleeping rough in Dublin and who are victims of alcohol and drug abuse. The vast majority of those who sleep rough throughout the country – I accept there is a small number with mental health problems – are in their predicament because of alcohol abuse. However, people do not protest about this but prefer instead to ask what we are doing about the homeless. What are we doing about the causes of homelessness? If we do not deal with the root cause of the problem, we will not solve it.

I am involved in bringing international amputee and disabled golfers to this country later this year. It was suggested by the organising committee, of which I am chairman, that we ask one of the drinks companies to sponsor the event. I refused to countenance such a move and the other members eventually agreed. The event will now proceed without sponsorship from an alcohol company. In my opinion alcohol companies sponsor too many events. It is time people involved in sport stated that they will not accept sponsorship from such companies. There are other companies that are willing to sponsor events and their involvement would end that of the alcohol companies. At every televised sporting event one will see hoardings in the arena which promote alcohol.

It recently came to my attention that alcohol companies have promotion officers in third level colleges and institutions throughout the country. Their next step will be to try to appoint such officers to secondary schools. They state that these people operate in a professional manner, but that is not the case. These officers' activities are dedicated to selling more alcohol, corrupting people and destroying lives. Let us stop taking a soft approach to this issue. The situation we face is serious and I would hate to think what will happen to this country if we do not come to grips with it.

I agree with Senator Fitzpatrick's statement that identity cards should be introduced. I have advocated their introduction for many years. In my opinion such cards should be issued to everyone, not just students. Identity cards are essential in any educated and well run society. If they were introduced, people would not be ashamed to produce them when they enter a public house and no one would be singled out as a result.

I wish to comment on the activities of supermarkets, off-licences and discos. First, however, I must point out the dangers posed by drinks cabinets in people's homes. These are a recent phenomenon and it is now the "in" thing to have a drinks cabinet in one's house. How many children got their first taste of alcohol by raiding their parents' drinks cabinet? I have stated previously that these cabinets should be removed from people's homes because there is no need for them. If people do not want to remove them, they should ensure that they are locked.

In my opinion, people should not be allowed to drink alcohol at discos. People should be able to enjoy themselves in such establishments without sucking alcohol from a bottle from the time they enter until they leave. We must put an end to this and I appeal to the Minister of State to put a stop to the sale of alcohol in discos and dance halls.

The activities of off-licences and supermarkets are not policed in a sufficiently rigorous manner. As stated on many occasions, people who frequent public houses buy their alcohol by the glass. However, in off-licences and supermarkets they can buy a dozen cans or bottles. For a period, supermarkets were obliged to limit the sale of alcohol on their premises to a particular section, which was fenced off, but it now appears to be freely available on the shelves.

The latest development by alcohol companies is the sale of mixed drinks which contain alcohol and soft drinks. This is another attempt on their part to encourage people to become addicted to drink. Addiction is very serious and someone – I do not recall who – was prompted to state "You do not throw addiction out the window, you coax it down the stairs step by step." Young people who are becoming addicted to alcohol will experience serious problems later in life.

As far as I am aware, only one bishop in Ireland is facilitating people who want to take the pledge. I spoke to Bishop Jones in Sligo about this matter recently and was informed that people will not keep the pledge. That is a defeatist attitude which only takes account of the lowest common denominator. There are many people who might be drinkers today if they had not taken the pledge at confirmation. That pledge is a great crutch on which parents can lean. They can say to their children, "You took the pledge and said you would not drink until you are 18, and if you do not honour your word on that matter, no one will take your word in respect of anything else." The pledge is a challenge which must be undertook and kept. We could do more to educate people in this regard.

The number of pioneers throughout the country has decreased considerably. Anyone who spoke Irish in the 1950s were laughed at and asked why they were talking such nonsense. At that time Irish music had been thrown to one side. However, the position has changed and Irish music, Irish dancing and the Irish language are considered to be "cool". It is now time for the pioneers to lift themselves up because we are almost at the point of no return in regard to alcohol. The pioneers should get active again and run advertising campaigns and promotions, as well as try to increase their membership, because to wear the pioneer pin and to be seen to be sober could become cool, to use modern phraseology. I sincerely thank the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association for this excellent document.

There should be an accident and emergency ward in psychiatric hospitals or alcohol treatment units. People with alcohol or drug problems should not be brought to general hospitals because they upset the people who are awaiting treatment for heart attacks or other serious medical conditions. I had occasion to be in the Mater Hospital five or six years ago with a heart complaint and I had first hand experience of watching these people being brought in drunk. It was shocking. People who are drunk should not be allowed into such units. I ask the Minister for Health and Children to consider opening an accident and emergency ward in alcohol treatment units or psychiatric hospitals to deal with people who are drunk. They are not sick but they are a nuisance when they fall in the streets and have to be picked up by the emergency services. Those people should not be brought to a sick unit. If that change were made, it would take a great deal of pressure off the accident and emergency departments and make life much easier for the nurses and doctors who have great difficulty dealing with people who are intoxicated.

I wanted to refer to many other issues in connection with this report, which is excellent. I have been speaking about this issue for the past 25 years. I remember speaking about it at a health board meeting in Manorhamilton at which somebody said we should not worry about alcohol abuse but drug abuse, which would be our next major problem. It did become a major problem but unfortunately my breath has been wasted on that matter.

I thank the Leader for providing time for this debate. It is important that we continue to highlight this problem. I appeal to parents and teachers to recognise that alcohol is the biggest killer in our society. As was said on a previous occasion, it is time people took the srams out of their eyes and met the problem head on.

Mr. Connor

Some weeks ago I called for this debate arising from the publication of the report. I have not read the report because it is not available widely. Obviously it is a voluminous study of drinking habits throughout Europe, with many references to Ireland. A major dearth in our own information is that we do not have reliable statistics on alcohol consumption here and the way that consumption breaks down among consumers. This report proves that there is a serious problem of under age drinking and many of us have anecdotal evidence in that regard. If one is in the vicinity of a disco in the early hours of the morning one can see many young people who are clearly under age and under the influence of alcohol.

There are a number of legal problems in relation to this issue. I took a hard line in relation to the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1999, which amended the previous Act to allow for late opening on New Year's Eve at the start of the new millennium. Last year we had the full Intoxicating Liquor Act, which was a major reform of the myriad of laws that govern the consumption and the sale of alcohol. I made a request on both those occasions, which was not always popular, that when a young person under the age of 18 years, or any young person, presented themselves for the purchase of an alcoholic beverage in a licensed premises, it should be compulsory that the person serving them should insist on seeing a proper identity card. We have a voluntary identity card system which simply does not work.

Under the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 2000, we impose severe penalties on publicans and owners of licensed premises who are found guilty of serving alcohol to under age people. I welcome that but it is a little too heavily weighted on the person who owns the premises or the publican. Perhaps this is too draconian, although the law already provides for it, but it should have been provided in the 2000 Act that criminal responsibility would be placed on the young person. I gather we are to raise the age of criminal responsibility to 12 years through legislation in these Houses. An under age person who falsely represents their age should be held responsible before the law. It should be a serious illegal act. They would have to be accompanied by their parents in court because they are under age but we need to do that. Placing all the burden of responsibility on the person selling alcohol to the young person simply does not work. We must insist that young persons between the ages of 12 and 18 – hopefully there are not many people under the age of 12 presenting themselves at bars to purchase drink – be held responsible before the law for their actions, and that serious penalties be imposed in terms of fines. We must bring all the actors together in relation to this serious problem.

I call for the introduction of a mandatory identity card system for young people. Much socialising on the part of young people is now done in an atmosphere where there is alcohol for sale. When I was of that age, I will not say how long ago, drinking was not part of the entertainment centre where the music was played or the dancing took place. I am talking about the 1960s, the early 1970s and before that. In the 1980s, however, we had this new phenomenon of the disco where drink is sold in addition to the entertainment being provided. In an atmosphere like that, with darkened rooms, etc., it is difficult for the person in charge of serving alcohol to determine the age of those who present themselves to purchase alcohol. For that reason, responsibility must be shared by all the actors involved here.

Drinking is a prevalent practice in Ireland. Two years ago, and last year, I referred to the fact that it was proven in 1995 that we consume approximately 11.5 litres of pure alcohol per head per year – that was for all of the population over 15 years of age. Since 20% of Irish people are abstainers – the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association is very strong here – that figure then increases to close to 14 litres per head per annum. That is a very high level of alcohol consumption among that portion of the adult population, the 80% of us who appear to take a drink, which includes myself. It is a serious problem.

A large part of the health burden is alcohol related. People with alcohol-related illnesses are found in hospital beds, as the Minister knows. We need to do a proper study if we are to know exactly what alcohol is doing to society, the benefits and particularly the damage. We need to study in detail how it affects the health system, abstentionism from work and disruption from school. I urged the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to undertake this but he stated that it was not his responsibility. I urge the Department of Health and Children to do this work immediately. We should not depend on the good work of a Swedish institute. The debate today was triggered by figures extrapolated from its report.

There are figures but much is put together from anecdotal evidence about absenteeism from work. The amount of absenteeism on a Monday morning is much higher than a Tuesday or Wednesday. That is clearly related to excessive consumption of alcohol by people over the weekend, particularly on Sunday evening.

It is estimated that at least 30% of deaths in road accidents are directly related to alcohol. It is the main contributory factor to these accidents. That is a serious problem that has not been tackled. There is a range of diseases, such as stomach and breast cancer, related to excessive alcohol and much psychiatric illness is related to it.

What one concludes from anecdotal evidence would be proved correct if based on scientific research. I urge this to be done. No doubt, we would be amazed at the cost to the health service of alcohol abuse.

We must do something about under age drinking and by extension drinking by younger people. We have a high level of teenage pregnancy, depression among the young and suicide among young males. All these are related to excessive consumption of alcohol in these age categories. We must do something about advertising, the social acceptance of alcohol and education. Drugs education is on some schools' curriculum but it is not taken as a serious subject.

We must socialise the young into the belief that excessive alcohol is dangerous and above all socially unacceptable. It is socially acceptable among adults, used as part of social intercourse between people and part of our culture – entertainment, sporting events and other activities. People therefore see the enjoyment side rather than the deleterious and damaging side of it. An education programme aimed at young people should address this.

Under the 1988 Act it is an offence for an under age person to purchase alcohol, but last year's Sale of Intoxicating Liquor Act placed all the burden on the person operating the premises. Those people have to take their share of the responsibility but we must restate in another Act that persons between 12 and 18 years should share responsibility for the illegal act of consuming-selling-dispensing alcohol.

Mr. Glynn

I compliment the Acting Chairman for making a crusade out of the issue of drink, especially for young people. Alcohol is our favourite drug. We extol its benefits but ignore its downside. We cannot continue to turn a blind eye to the epidemic of alcohol abuse and ignore the fact that young people drink at a younger age and in greater quantities.

In recent years some health boards, including that in my area, the Midland Health Board, conducted a survey of drug abuse among young people in second level schools. It covered a number of areas, including smoking and drugs in the established sense. The startling, worrying statistic is that 88% claimed to have consumed alcohol once, with no difference between males and females, although males were heavier drinkers than females. The most common age of initiation of drinking was 14 to 15. Cider was claimed to have been drunk by 11% by the age of ten, wine and spirits by 9% each. Those who took alcohol were more likely to have used illegal drugs.

The alcohol industry has taken over our social and cultural life. In sporting events, as the Acting Chairman mentioned, festivals, Christmastide, birthdays, dog fights, and cat fights alcohol plays a pivotal role. If there are not a few jars there, it is not enjoyed.

Recent European surveys show us to be top of the league for under age drinking. This is not a wonderful achievement and is not a boast. Under age drinking has reached epidemic proportions.

I applaud the efforts made by the vast majority of the members of the Vintners Federation of Ireland. I speak with knowledge because I take a drink, but I do not let drink take me. The publicans in my local town are diligent and conscientious in not serving people they consider to be under age. There is a small percentage, as there is in every category of people, who sell drink to whomever asks for it without looking for proof of identity.

The Acting Chairman raised, as did Senator Connor, the issue of identity cards. I support identity cards for everybody. It is an absolute must today. If we make any attempt to curb under age drinking, identity cards must be introduced. Whether we like it or not, the measures we have taken are not working. We do not like it, so we have to go back to the drawing board. The drinks industry, including breweries and distilleries, should devolve a percentage of their turnover to education on alcohol. When I was working in the area of alcohol and drugs 20 years ago, there was a national independent organisation called INCA. It did great work, and helped to set up advisory bodies on tobacco and drugs. We do not seem to have anything of that nature for our favourite drug, which is alcohol.

We need to tackle the area of under age drinking to see what can be done. Parents will play a pivotal role in this. I once met a young lady from Dublin who was a reformed alcoholic at 22. She was an only child who had a serious drink problem at 15. When she arrived home at midnight or 1 a.m., her parents were happy to hear her announce she was home. She was usually full of drink, however, because she had a very serious problem at a tender age.

I agree with the Leas-Chathaoirleach and others who have said that all alcohol should be banned from teenage discos. There should be no such thing as alcoholic discos, especially when the disco is for under age people. In fairness, proprietors of off-licences are diligent in the main. It must be borne in mind, however, that young people will always find somebody who is willing to buy drink and supply it to them. There should be a mandatory prison sentence for those who do something of that nature.

Reference has been made to hospitals, including acute units and accident and emergency departments and psychiatric hospitals. My col leagues, Senators Norris and Henry, put down a motion last year on the need for acute psychiatric beds in the Eastern Regional Health Authority. Some 45% of inappropriate bed occupancy is taken up by people who come in full to the gills with drink, creating havoc and disturbing people who are genuinely ill. I agree with Senators who said that this is unacceptable. Having served in the psychiatric services, I can say that drink related problems were the most common reason for admission, which was a startling statistic. I do not know what the statistic is now. Alcohol impacts on people's physical health, causing cirrhosis of the liver and the destruction of brain cells, to name just two. People who continually abuse alcohol will find themselves in the care of the health services, especially the psychiatric services.

I firmly believe that parents have a huge role to play, and not just in the area of under age drinking. It is interesting to think that some years ago, young lads and lasses were getting pocket money to buy their favourite comic. Now they are buying alcohol. It is also very worrying that young people often come to secondary school on a Monday morning with a hangover. They tell their friends they have kept a few bob for a drink later on as a cure. As anyone who knows anything about alcoholism knows, relief drinking is the first step to becoming an alcoholic. That is an established fact.

There has to be a meeting of minds between all sections of society. I commend the efforts of the Minister for Health and Children, but I do not believe we are winning the war. Death on the road is another topic on which the Leas-Chathaoirleach has spoken ad nauseam. A large number of the accidents which take place on our roads are drink related. I will not even speak about marriage break-up and violence on our streets, most of which are alcohol related. Something needs to be done. I could say much more, but to go on longer would be to repeat some of what has already been said. Like other Senators who have spoken, I am concerned and there is a need to be.

I conclude by reading from a survey of young persons' views of the attitudes of their parents towards under age drinking. Most young people said their parents would probably not approve of under age drinking. Ten years ago, they would have thought their parents would kill them if they knew they were drinking. A casual approach can be seen in the young people's responses. Regular drinkers said they do not drink in front of their parents, and that their parents are unaware of the amount of alcohol they consume at the weekend. I am talking about boys and girls of 14 to 16 years of age, who come to school on a Monday morning with a hangover.

Some younger females reported that their parents prefer them to be open about their drinking habits, and a minority reported they are not allowed drink in front of younger brothers and sisters. Even that information betrays the casual approach of parents. It is an old saying and a true one that you cannot teach an old dog new tricks. We have an opportunity as a House, in tandem with the Minister for Health and Children, his Department, the drinks industry, parents and the education system to facilitate the meeting of minds needed to tackle this problem. It is out of hand, but it is never too late to do the right thing.

Dr. Henry

May I share my time with Senator Ryan?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Is that agreed? Agreed. Senators have 15 minutes each.

Dr. Henry

I will take six, and Senator Ryan can have the rest. It is very suitable that the Leas-Chathaoirleach is in the Chair as he has pressed for this debate for such a long time. Other speakers have covered the issue of under age drinking in this country very well, so I will concentrate on the efforts the medical profession should make. It is great to have a doctor like Deputy Moffatt in the House for this debate.

Dr. Joe Barry is the dean of the faculty of public health medicine in the Royal College of Physicians of Ireland. He recently wrote that under age drinking in Ireland is a tale of woe, and I think that is a good way of expressing it. We all see the great sorrow it brings to young people, their families and the wider community. Professor Anthony Clare was, until recently, medical director of St. Patrick's Hospital, one of our major psychiatric institutions. He has frequently said to me that he thinks under age drinking in this country is a more serious problem than the use of illegal drugs. For quite some time, doctors have recognised the seriousness of this issue and the need to deal with it.

The problems in accident and emergency departments were mentioned. Perhaps those who work in such departments have not made it abundantly clear that young people coming in drunk, particularly on weekend nights, interfere with the running of a casualty service. A huge amount of their time is occupied trying to establish whether these young people are injured or merely drunk. Those who are drunk may need to be left at the back of casualty wards to sleep it off. Sadly, one of them dies every now and then because they have a head injury as well. Diagnosis of such problems should not be estimated.

It is also a terrible curse for the rest of the population who must go to the casualty departments with serious injuries or illnesses and who have to wait for hours while these people are dealt with. This was on the television programme which inspired Senator Farrell to ask for this debate. Perhaps we need more publicity from doctors about the amount of time and effort wasted dealing with people who are in the casualty departments because of alcohol abuse.

We have talked about the influence of alcohol on road traffic accidents. I am not just talking about those driving cars but also pedestrians. It is worth mentioning the influence alcohol has on serious accidents in the home. I am not only talking about cases of domestic violence but about falls down stairs and into cookers and fires. Perhaps the medical profession should stress this aspect more. Approximately half the coroners are doctors. While it is difficult not to have respect for the feelings of the family of the bereaved when there has been a fatal incident, we must stress the importance of the fact that these people had over-indulged in alcohol before the incident which led to their death.

Perhaps we could also speak out more about the enforcement of legislation. I come from an area in Dublin where there is a large number of pubs. Large numbers of under age people, particularly girls, go into these pubs. I raised this issue during our discussion on the Intoxicating Liquor Act last year. Senator Bohan pointed out the difficulties for staff in recognising people who are under age and I appreciate that. However, the answer is to employ more staff. This would not happen in America because there must be plenty of staff to question people. I know the pubs are not as crowded, but perhaps that has something to do with our licensing system. We should look at smaller pubs in areas where people know who people are. There is a lack of enforcement of the legislation dealing with the age of people going into pubs and we must address that. Doctors could also become involved in that area.

The Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, is a medical practitioner. He must make more of an effort to separate the link between sport and its promotion by those who sell alcoholic beverages. The Minister for Health and Children was right to seize the opportunity to take the snooker competition away from the alcohol industry. Some £600,000 over three years is chicken feed. Sport looks more dramatic in Croke Park, but it is not right to associate something, such as snooker, which is not energy consuming but which people regard as laudable, with alcohol. It is unfortunate that every celebration of a sporting occasion appears to need a bottle of champagne fizzed all over the place. It is a waste of champagne. It is unfortunate that this appears to be the only way one can celebrate. Dr. Michael Loftus of the GAA must be applauded for the work he has done for years to try to separate the GAA from alcohol. I think he resigned because he felt he had failed. It is unfortunate that of all organisations the GAA relies on Guinness for sponsorship of its tournaments. It should consider breaking that link.

Young people earn more money nowadays and this is important when they want to buy drink. We should look at why they want to get drunk. They do not buy drink to have a good time or to have a party but to get drunk. That is worrying. The fact we have only one adolescent in-patient psychiatric unit means we are not taking adolescent psychiatry seriously. If the new Mental Health Bill ever becomes an Act, it must provide for more units to deal with adolescents and children with psychiatric problems. There must be a reason they drink to get drunk. Perhaps when they look at the stress they are under from the education system and the current strike they feel they need to get drunk. We are also short of psychologists in our schools and that needs to be addressed. Alcoholism is closely associated with depression which leads to suicide.

General practitioners have the greatest influence of any doctors on people. Perhaps we should encourage the Irish College of General Practitioners to go further in the way it has addressed alcohol abuse. We should also support its idea that the drinks industry must be prevented from advertising and that there should be a health tax on it. The big battle is between the Government and the vested interests. I hope the Minister of State relays that view to the Minister for Health and Children.

Mr. Ryan

I thank Senator Henry for sharing her time. I remind everyone that alcohol is good. The Lord's authority is there at the wedding feast in Cana because when the wine ran out, he made more available. It is a good thing which is capable of being abused. Life is full of good things which are capable of being abused. I will not list them but we all know the type of things about which I speak.

The ability to enjoy the pleasurable side of alcohol presupposes the ability to make mature choices. That is why we impose restrictions on people up to an age where we assume, rightly or wrongly, that they are capable of making mature choices. After that it is up to people's mature choice to recognise whether they are able to deal with drink and to make the choice accordingly. If that is our logic, then everything which inhibits or interferes with people's capacity to make mature choices must be removed, such as the use of subliminal advertising which makes suggestions to young people who are at their most vulnerable. There are few categories of people more vulnerable than adolescents. It is a dreadfully difficult time when people are full of personal, sexual, intellectual and familial insecurities. We should not allow a single one dimensional suggestion that there is one simple way of eliminating all those problems, which is what the indirect promotion of alcohol does.

I work in third level education and from the moment a student arrives there, they are bombarded with propaganda from the drinks industry. That should not happen. If the drinks industry is interested in the third level sector, it should make block grants available to fund sporting facilities and we will give it credit in the literature. We will thank Beamish & Crawford and Murphys for sponsoring it. Senator Farrell may not agree with me but that is the only way if the drinks industry wants to be associated with this sector. Recently when I walked along the corridor of my place of work and of UCC I saw a poster which advertised a table quiz sponsored by Beamish & Crawford and the business studies society or another society. It was that society's table quiz but the name of the brewer was in large print on the poster compared to the small print used for the name of the society. We must change that ethos.

We must also enforce the law. I have said on numerous occasions that I know the name of the night club in Cork where my 17 year old daughter says she will not go because it is full of junior certificate students. I will not name it because it would be a breach of privilege. If I and others who have any knowledge of Cork city know that, why will the Garda not do anything about it? Every dog in the street knows about this. I am not talking about marginal 17 year olds who look like they are 19; I am talking about junior certificate students. Within the 17 to 19 age group, it is difficult to distinguish their age especially with young women. Most publicans would not dream of serving children who are visibly under age but somebody is giving free access to 12 and 13 year olds.

Quite rightly, we have heavily resourced drug squads. By contrast to the drugs squads, how many gardaí are dedicated to the enforcement of the laws on under age drinking in any Garda district? I bet it is minuscule. It is something they fit in at the tail end. It is about mature choice and our obligation to protect people when they are not old enough to make a mature choice.

I am a great advocate of the equality law. However, there is a perverse consequence of that whereby publicans can no longer display a sign restricting admittance to 21 or 23 year olds because apparently that is in breach of the Equality Act. That should be changed. It should be perfectly legal for a provider of a service like the service of alcoholic drink to be able to establish any additional conditions to do with age that they feel are appropriate to the service they want to provide. There should not be a legal obstacle to that.

There is also a parents' issue. Every time an under age person is found by the health services or the Garda in such an intoxicated state that they need to be rescued, the parent should be hauled in to get proper social work counselling. That would cause a considerable number of well-off parents to discover that they are part of the problem of society. Many well-off parents go out for the night leaving 16 year olds in a house full of drink and pretend that nothing will happen. Parents have to take their own responsibilities.

Are the laws about young people at work being enforced? They have huge amounts of money, which enables them to drink and distracts them from their study etc.

There are many positive things that we do not do and particularly in country towns. What is available at night apart from a public house for any youngster? Most of our sports facilities are run by volunteers and most of the time are closed at night. Most of our libraries are closed at night. Schools are closed at night. Those clubs which open at night do so intermittently. A huge num ber of country towns do not have a cinema. We must create a culture in our community of facilities available to young people, which are not adult facilities, so that they do not have to congregate around the nearest pub because it is the only place they can get in out of the rain to hang around. They are allowed in to pubs and that adds them to the culture.

I have one little, long-standing grievance. When I am driving, I do not drink and I tend to drink alcohol-free lagers. A pint of alcohol-free lager is 50% dearer than a pint of lager with alcohol in it. The last time I had a pint of alcohol-free lager it cost me £4 in a pub that was selling a pint for £2.50. I am told that is to do with the way the excise duty is calculated. Because of the way it is produced, the excise duty is the same as if it had alcohol in it. I do not know if this is true. I do know it is vastly more expensive and it should be cheaper. It is only a small thing but it is an irritant.

We have to be positive in the things we do and we must enforce the law. I am very worried by the point that Senator Henry made earlier about why so many of our young people believe that the best thing to do on Saturday night is to get so drunk that on Sunday morning they cannot remember what they did the previous night. The Department of Health and Children has to do much work on this.

I am a drinker but I do not get that drunk. There was a time in my student days when I drank far too much; many students do. There is a huge population of 15 and 16 year olds who cannot imagine a life in which they do not end up so drunk on Saturday night that they cannot remember on Sunday what they did. That is a serious commentary on their whole set of values and it is a really deep issue in our society.

In other countries that would nominally be far more permissive of alcohol than we are, teenagers do not do that. They either drink or do not drink, but they do not have this urge to get gloriously, blindingly drunk that a large proportion of our young people have. That is something we have to look at.

Mr. Chambers

I welcome the Minister of State. As a legislator, a parent and a person involved in the drinks industry, I welcome the debate. I recognise the seriousness of the issue being discussed.

I welcome the fact that both the Minister of State and the Minister, Deputy Martin, recently announced the national alcohol awareness campaign. People must recognise the whole change in the drinks industry in the past eight to ten years. We have moved from old traditional type pubs where people used to form a general observation corps involving different age groups, particularly in small towns. There were different structures in the city but it was closer. The whole drinking pattern has now changed, particularly for young people. It is more concentrated in bigger centres and in some towns up to 1,000 young people may congregate at night.

With the launch of the awareness programme, the important thing is to recognise the pressures on young people and let them know the seriousness of the problem. Within a society that has changed with economic progress there is a great availability of money and there is a trend for young people to be focused towards alcohol. Within the drinks industry, there is a change in the range of products available and the focus of the advertising makes it extremely attractive to young people. Alcohol gives them the kind of buzz they feel is necessary to enjoy themselves.

We are one of the countries at the top of the European league when it comes to binge drinking among young people. Having discussed the social aspect of drinking with my own children, I appreciate the pressures on young people and the need for greater awareness among parents when dealing with their children so that they know what their needs are and the type of social structures involved. Parents must play a greater role. The Minister recently announced that deregulation of licences is not really of great interest or merit and recent studies have shown that deregulation will not play any part in diminishing excessive drinking by young people.

The important thing is to bring in adequate reforms to deal with advertising, which has a major impact on young people. Contributions from the drinks industry for promotional purposes are an integral part of all sporting activity in the State and that influence will have to be looked at seriously by sporting bodies and by the Government. The sponsorship that is given is very focused encompassing football, racing, soccer, snooker championships and other areas of sport and entertainment. People are very much focused on the drinks industry through television and the massive interest in sport.

Dr. Mick Loftus and Dóthain have supported the Minister in his recent announcement relating to the alcohol awareness campaign which sets out the slogans "Less is more" and "It's your choice" and there is a website of choices for young people. We have to offer them alternatives. We provide very little investment at local authority level for suitable facilities for young people to enjoy themselves. There is no county level policy of investment in alternatives for them and there is a great need to encourage development in that area within the Department of Tourism, Sport and Recreation, local authorities and the private sector. There is a great opportunity to provide for young people.

We have a responsibility as to how we implement the law. It is very difficult for establishments catering for 400 and 500 people a night to ensure that every young person on their premises is over 18. As a parent, I can say that most tall young fellows have little difficulty in getting into these places at night because of their growth, strength and appearance. My local newspaper today lists 22 court cases of which 70% are alcohol related. Two of the cases regard prosecutions of persons in the taxi business for the procurement of alcohol for young people and there have been 16 other cases relating to families and youths attending under-age discos and assaulting people on the door over being refused entry after drinking alcohol on the buses that carried them there. It is interesting to know that in one of those cases the drink was provided by a person in the taxi industry. It is an issue that we must deal with in a comprehensive and planned way.

Today's debate helps to focus minds because life is moving very quickly in a fast growing economy and sometimes we do not see the changes taking place in family and social structures, particularly dealing with young people. This issue indicates the changes that have occurred and the problems that exist for young people. The report and the Minister of State's statement today reveal that there are many young people who take a drink in a moderate way. It is important that the issue of awareness is brought to the fore and that it remains there. All the statistics are there but, besides the legislative changes, public awareness of the concept throughout the industry is necessary. Most publicans have a genuine approach to the business of drink. They know the business, it is their livelihood and they have a responsibility towards it, but there are those within the industry who abuse and take advantage of it and that has to be stamped out to the best of the ability of the Garda. Overall there is a need for a more determined effort by parents to take on board the issues and the responsibilities involved when dealing with young people.

It is important to point out that the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association has made recommendations to the Minister in relation to advertising and, in a recent public statement on television, he indicated that he was considering them comprehensively. They highlighted the need for a comprehensive examination of the effects of alcohol on young people. That should be undertaken because we need to see what the statistics are and how effectively we should deal with the problems we face. Tighter control of off-licences and their structures is important. Through them young people are able to procure, either through third parties or by themselves, a substantial quantity of the alcohol they consume. One has only to visit public parks and areas to see the amount of cans and plastic containers, most of which are obtained in off-licences. A key aspect of this is public awareness which is an area in which there has been a substantial lull in terms of how clued-in we are to the business of drink and our responsibilities in that regard.

It has been pointed out to me by Fr. Micheal MacGreil S.J. that there is a growing interest in the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and that is to be welcomed in the student fora of primary and second level education. One of the big issues is to make young people aware of the damage and the problems caused by alcohol, be they drinkers, non-drinkers or those who intend to drink in the future. From the experiences of my life, I have found that when you go through the system you learn a lot of the downside to alcohol consumption and abuse and, as an alternative to the advertising of the bliss and enjoyment of drinking, young people should be made aware of that.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

This report is potentially one of the most serious ever presented to, and discussed by, this House. If continued, the trend revealed by this report could lead to social catastrophes and major problems beyond our wildest comprehension. The fall-out for society would be very serious and dramatic and, indirectly, it would have a huge impact on our economy.

This is not just a simple matter of discussing another report. The figures that emerge from it are dramatic. The change in drinking patterns here in just four years is quite astounding, in particular the increased consumption of alcohol by girls. It is frightening to find that, of over 30 countries surveyed, the largest increase in the consumption of spirits was among girls in Ireland, almost double the 1995 figure. That is something that needs to be very seriously examined.

The report raised many questions. One can immediately point to the State to do this, that or the other but first we must look at the issue and those involved. The people involved are children, young people under 18 years of age or still in their teens and, as Senator Chambers said, their parents must take responsibility. It may not be politic to say it but, if adults choose to have children, they have a responsibility to see those children right through into mature and responsible adulthood. As far as I am concerned, it is unacceptable that 14, 15 and 16 year olds around the streets of every town and village in Ireland throughout the weekend have unlimited amounts of cash available to them, are in a position to secure alcohol and are unsupervised by the adults who have responsibility for them. Maybe it is not for public representatives or the State or the Government to lecture parents on their responsibilities but parents have a moral obligation to take responsibility and that must be pointed out to them.

Reference was made earlier to how the Garda Síochána deals with the situation. The Garda has a responsibility to let the parents of these youngsters know what their responsibilities are and laws relating to how their children are behaving. A much more proactive approach should be adopted on this front because it concerns young people trying to find their feet and not succeeding because they get so drunk and so out of their minds over the weekend because of drink, and that is unacceptable.

Given the contents of this report, the Government should, of its own volition, undertake a study or research independently of this report on how this dramatic change has occurred between 1995 and 1999 because the underlying trend, if it continues, will lead to serious problems down the road. We already know what problems exist as a result of alcohol abuse. They include marriage breakdown, violence in the home, violence on the streets, poor performance at work, absenteeism from work, accidents on the road, fights and rows on the streets, injuries and people ending up in hospitals costing the taxpayer money. The litany of the fallout from alcohol abuse is mind boggling, but there is also a huge cost factor which means that it would be in the interests of the State to examine the problem with a view to curbing, correcting and redirecting.

Senator Ryan mentioned that alcohol was good – he referred to the wedding feast at Cana. Everything is good in moderation. The fundamental point is that people should use alcohol in moderation, and if they cannot do that, they should not use it at all. The issue is to convey that sense of balance. There is a need for balance and a sense of proportion. If people could be educated to be balanced in their approach and to have a sense of proportion about how they do things, many difficulties would be avoided.

Reference has been made to advertising. Advertising has a huge influence on young people and also older people in terms of what they buy, what they do, what is fashionable and what is the best way to behave. The type of glamorous advertising particularly on television relating to alcohol in pleasant social environments is not exactly helpful to curbing young people's drinking. It is an encouragement to young people to go out and partake in alcohol.

The promotion of sporting activities by alcohol companies has also been referred to. There is a real need to closely examine that issue. It will lead to political difficulties because there are vested interests who would not like to see legislation to prevent that type of promotion, for obvious reasons. However, the association of alcohol with all types of sport is not commendable and should be discouraged, and I hope something will be done to discourage it.

This report referred also to the problems that arise as a result of the use or abuse of alcohol. An average of 5% of the participating students reported accident or injury because of alcohol use. The highest figures came from the United Kingdom at 13% and Finland, Ireland and Lithuania at 10% each. Those are very high figures and it must be remembered that we are talking about accidents, in many cases serious or fatal accidents. A total of 8% of youngsters in Ireland get into trouble with the police because of alcohol and a further 8% get into trouble with their parents. There were other interesting statistics. The loss of money or other valuable items was reported by more girls than boys in 17 countries, and by more girls in four. However, the figures for girls in the four countries I already mentioned are among the highest of all for that variable, and 23% of girls in Ireland lost money or other valuables as a result of being drunk. That is a very interesting figure given that the largest increase in the consumption of spirits was among girls in Ireland and that that figure almost doubled between 1995 and 1999. Is there a correlation between those figures? It is something that deserves further examination and I would ask the Minister, with the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Minister for Education and Science, to examine that. The Minister for Health and Children and the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, are not the only Ministers with specific or direct departmental responsibility for this issue. All three Departments have responsibility.

Senator Henry referred to the problems created in accident and emergency departments in hospitals. The scenario in some accident and emergency departments at weekends is chaotic because of the use and misuse of alcohol, particularly by younger people. The resulting demand and drain on resources is extraordinary. In some cases it has to be seen to be believed. I am sure the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, in his capacity as a general practitioner, would be in a very good position to expand on that issue.

On the question of identity cards, anyone who objects to identity cards at this stage is being ridiculous. There is a real need for them and they should be demanded in public houses and off licences. The trend in recent times has been for other people to buy large quantities of alcohol in off licences and hand it over to groups of young people. These groups converge on a street corner or on a quiet area and drink themselves silly. The Garda must be on the alert and establish who purchased the drink for these youngsters. If they purchase the drink themselves then the full rigours of the law should applied to those who sell it.

There is a strong case for the introduction of ID cards for all people up to 18 years; the age limit could even be higher given, as Senator Chambers said, the difficulty in establishing the age of a young fellow or girl. However, this will not happen unless there is an all out concentrated national effort, and not simply a once-off slipshod measure. The Government should establish a sub-committee of the Departments of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Health and Education, Finance and the Taoiseach which would put together a programme to deal with these issues. Otherwise the long-term fall-out of this problem for society could be dramatic and serious.

The report has highlighted a definite trend which will result in serious consequences if we do not take it on board and respond to it. If corrective action is taken we can avoid the social catastrophe which could occur in the years ahead. People should be directed to take their responsibilities seriously because some of them are not doing so. Individuals have responsibilities in this area and looking to the State to take responsibility for everything is not the most commendable approach.

Mr. Bohan

I agree with the points made by previous speakers. Senator Farrell covered many of my points in his good contribution.

Seldom, if ever, have all sections of the licensed trade received so much negative press in relation to alcohol misuse as they have in the past month or so. Hardly a day has gone by without an official report, ministerial statement, press report or television programme on the problems of excess alcohol consumption. This publicity not only reflects a serious issue but it is bad for the drinks industry, one of our most important industrial sectors. In a wider and more important context, it says much about the society we have created from our newly achieved affluence. I want to make it clear that the drinks industry will not benefit in the long term from alcohol misuse; it benefits from alcohol sensible use. I have no doubt that rising prosperity has led to increased alcohol abuse. This affluence, together with a loosening of traditional family values, has created a situation where young people have more money at their disposal than ever before. One has only to look at the increase in mobile phone ownership among those under 18 years to prove this point.

Since the mid-1990s when the economy took off, all alcohol related harm factors have increased significantly, particularly accidents, injuries, violence and even death. The recent Council of Europe funded ESPAD report on alcohol and other drug use among students in 30 European countries shows that Ireland has registered the highest growth in under age drinkers in Europe over the past five years. In addition, research carried out by the drinks trade shows that the top three ways young people access alcohol is through pubs, clubs, discos and off licences. This is a cause of much concern for the trade and it is an issue which must be effectively addressed.

The trade is not the only component which must be used in tackling the problem. Educators, parents and the community services of the Garda Síochána also have a role to play in tackling it. Responsibility at community level is a key factor. Responsibility also rests with an adult who purchases alcohol from an off licence for under age youngsters or a parent who buys his under age son a drink in a pub after a football match or whatever.

Following the enactment of the Intoxicating Liquor Act last year the penalties for publicans or alcohol retailers who sell to an under age person have been significantly increased. The Act provides not only for endorsements and heavy fines but has also introduced for the first time the concept of mandatory temporary closure on conviction of up to seven days for the first offence and up to 30 days for the second or subsequent offence. Added to this is the shame of having to post a public notice that the premises or part of it has been closed because of the offence of selling to minors. These serious penalties are a wake-up call for alcohol retailers, publicans and off licence and disco operators who think the law will not be enforced in the future. It is a clear message from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Síochána.

For many years the trade representative body – I have a vested interest in this as I represent the licensed trade in Dublin in the House – had three basic policies on under age drinking – first, not to defend in any way a member who had deliberately broken the law in this regard; second, within sensible parameters, to support the legislator and the Garda as well as community groups in helping to stamp out the practice resorted to by a small minority of members in serving under age persons; and, third, consistently advising members and their staff to seek valid proof of age before serving young drinkers. These are straightforward and unequivocal policies.

I should mention the Equal Status Act, 2000, in relation to discrimination on the grounds of age. The requirement under the Act to serve 18 year olds and upwards complicates the issue. Prior to the enactment of the Act it was commonplace to see notices in Dublin pubs to the effect that people under 21 years, 23 years or even 25 years would not be served. This was an effective precautionary measure, particularly in so far as young girls were concerned given the well accepted difficulty of gauging their age. Signs of this kind are now illegal and one must rely solely on proof of age. The voluntary ID scheme administered by the Garda Síochána is to be commended. However, it cannot be anything more than what it is, that is, a voluntary scheme which relies on voluntary participation which will always be small relative to the population in the 18-21 age bracket.

The LVA has recommended to the Commission on Liquor Licensing that the effectiveness and uptake of the scheme could be increased by abolishing the £5 application fee and by marketing the existence of the scheme to the general public in a more proactive way. Regardless of the civil issues involved, it may well be that the State will have to introduce a compulsory national ID scheme for a variety of purposes as is common in mainland Europe.

Much can be done within the licensed sector in terms of proprietor and staff training to combat under age drinking. After a planning and development period of almost three years the Department of Health and Children, in co-operation with the drinks industry group of Ireland, the Licensed Vintners Association, the Vintners Federation of Ireland and CERT, last month launched Responsible Serving of Alcohol.

I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Martin, on this initiative and Dr. Ann Hope of the health promotion unit of the Department who played a key role in the development of this programme. The RSA aims to provide management and bar staff with the knowledge and awareness necessary to responsibly serve alcohol in licensed premises. The training process includes problems associated with excessive alcohol consumption, how to handle difficult customers and situations, alcohol and the law, avoiding serving under age persons and monitoring bar and lounge areas. The format of the training process is interactive, using real life situations on a case study basis to help reinforce skills and encourage full discussion among participants. The workshop provides the core element of the training process which runs for three hours with a maximum of 20 participants per session.

Throughout 2001 the LVA plans to have as many as possible member houses participating in this scheme. Not alone will training of this kind be seen as an important community initiative towards the goal of solving, in so far as possible, at trade level the under age drinking problem but it also makes sound commercial sense. It is an initiative in which our association is proud to be involved.

Minimising under age drinking behaviour must in the final analysis be a dedicated community effort requiring input and responsibility by all the stakeholders concerned. Parents, educators, guardians, the licensed trade, the association and its members will not be found wanting.

If the Government is serious about combating the problem of under age drinking, I cannot for the life of me understand why there is so much publicity and pressure to deregulate the licensed trade. Approximately 100 new licences have been granted in the Dublin area in the past 12 months since the new Act came into force. I cannot speak for the country but anyone who gets planning permission and approval from the fire department etc. can apply for a new licence. Under the new Act they can purchase a licence anywhere in the country and move it into Dublin or elsewhere. There is pub for every 190 people in the State, and that includes pioneers of 18 years of age and over of whom there are 27%. In County Leitrim in the 1800s there was a pub for every 390 to 400 people, today there is a pub in that county for every 64 adult persons over 18 years of age.

The reason for the rush to deregulate the licensed trade is beyond me. It is not like taxis. I do not think anybody has ever had to wait three hours in a pub to get a drink or to walk far to get one. If children are allowed to go into any corner shop or a fish and chip shop for that matter to buy drink it would be absolutely impossible to control it. A previous speaker said that 99% of publicans would not serve people if they knew they were under age. Many of the mini-markets are staffed by Chinese. In the local mini-markets where I live 90% of the staff are Chinese and they do not speak good English. One cannot expect them to question whether a person is over 18 years of age. This is an area that should be looked at carefully. I compliment and congratulate the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association on its submission to the commission. It is an excellent submission and I agree with every word of it. I hope the commission takes it on board.

Mr. O'Dowd

These are significant and important issues for society. The fundamental question we should ask is why young people drink to excess. What is their need to go into the darker parts of parks and towns and to litter the place with beer bottles, beer cans and so on? There is a significant lack of alternative recreational amenities in society for young people. If such facilities existed we could offer our young people an alternative lifestyle, a healthier and a happier one in which they could get involved.

The reality is that most of our smaller towns, particularly on the east coast, are beginning to grow. At a meeting of our council this week a group of sports people said they were unable to buy recreational land and were overrun with hundreds of extra children who wanted to get involved in their club. They had nowhere to go and we had no land to give them. At the same time there is a proposal to build one massive stadium in Dublin, costing millions of pounds. That money ought to be distributed to local communities, villages and towns which are a long way from Dublin and will not benefit from the stadium.

A fundamental shift is needed in Government policy towards recreational amenities for young people, specifically girls. I note the Minister of State said that under age girls are drinking as much if not more than boys. There is a lack of interest in and support for recreational facilities for girls. The emphasis in society is towards the GAA and rugby but there is no real support for recreational amenities for young girls.

Another reason people drink is lack of confidence. By getting involved in sport and community facilities young people will have more confidence in themselves and their ability to communicate and get on. If schools were properly focused and resourced young people would be happier and the need to abuse alcohol or drugs would be significantly reduced.

I welcome the work done by the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association since its foundation and particularly its ongoing work. One of the reasons young people take alcohol relates to the way society is manipulated by the drinks industry and the advertising industry. Because of the Celtic tiger and a greater amount of money in the economy they have more to spend than any other age group and they are ruthlessly and effectively targeted by these industries. I do not say that lightly. The drinks industry has much to answer for. Its effective advertising campaigns, witty and funny as they may be, have an effect on young children who watch television.

The Minister said the advertising code of the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland is under review and the Department is making submissions to it. The advertising industry regulates itself through the Advertising Standards Authority which is not responsible to anyone else. The Department of Health and Children should have a veto on drinks advertising. This would not constitute an abuse of privilege as the subtlety and significance of the psychological pressure placed on young people by advertisements has to be directly challenged by the State. The Department is the proper body to exercise a veto on these advertisements.

Some may think that if advertisements only include adults they do not affect young people. One particular advertisement features children aged four or five who repeat the punch line because it is witty. However, they are repeating the golden mantra of the drinks company involved which is Budweiser, Guinness or whatever. These forces are at work in society and are having a significant and disproportionate impact. Why does Ireland have one of the highest rates of alcohol abuse among young people in Europe? The drinks industry has a significant part to play in this regard and we must insist that we control its activities.

I also wish to raise the problems concerning pubs. Pubs have traditionally been a social focus. In many cases this was due to a lack of an alternative centre. Small communities need a place to which people can go. People in the television series "The Riordans" went to the pub and pubs are a focal point for community life. I acknowledge and welcome the fact that people have somewhere to go which is warm, sociable and so on. However, calls for the deregulation of the drinks industry in Dublin city are due to the fact that so many drinkers are being ripped off by publicans. I do not drink in Dublin so I do not know the price of a pint in the city. However, the price differential is in the order of 14p or 15p per drink. Publicans are also ripping off people who buy soft drinks. One will probably pay more for a bottle of spring water than for a pint of Guinness. That is disgraceful.

If the drinks industry and publicans want to have the community's respect they should make the price of alternatives to alcohol more in keeping with the cost of production. One can buy a bottle of spring water for 35p in a supermarket but one will not pay less than £1.50 for it in a pub. We must directly tackle this issue. I acknowledge the importance of the drinks industry in terms of employment and its impact on communities. However, these rip-offs must stop now.

This is an important debate. Discos or pubs are the only places in which young people can meet members of the opposite sex and enjoy recreation. We must encourage, support and promote the right of people not to drink alcohol and not to be pushed into doing so by peer pressure. They should not have to resist such pressures. Alcohol abuse can have a significant impact on the lives of young people. Many of them become depressed and there is an increasing incidence of young people presenting with mental health problems as a result of alcohol abuse.

This is a timely debate. The experiences we are discussing are very important but we must rule the roost. Young people must no longer be at the beck and call of ruthless advertising and drinks industries which target them for their increasing disposable incomes. This is leading to ill-health. Young people are dying between 10 p.m. and 2 a.m. on Fridays and Saturdays. They are crashing cars into walls or other stationary objects because they are drinking too much and abusing other substances. We must put in place a more controlled environment for young people. There must also be significantly increased recreational facilities for young people.

Ms Ormonde

We did not intend that this debate would take so long but this is such a serious subject that Senators wish to comment on what is the scourge of society. I was shocked by the European reports in 1995 and by the trend which has emerged in the past year or two, the disturbing results of which are shocking.

Irish teenagers are drinking more than their peers in Europe. The statistics also show that teenagers top the league in terms of drinking. This is awful news. St. Patrick's College and Berkeley College, California, carried out research which produced similar statistics. The problem will not go away unless we tackle it. I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Martin, for taking the initiative and launching the alcohol awareness campaign. However, we must assist him in every way possible to combat this awful scourge.

Weekend drinking is widely acknowledged to be out of control. People, including teachers, now complain about the Monday morning syndrome. It is acknowledged that second level students have easy access to alcohol in off licences, pubs and football clubs. We must not allow this to continue.

The Minister of State pointed out that, in 1998, about £1.7 billion was spent on alcohol related problems. This does not take account of the toll in human suffering and distress in the form or road accidents, crime and absenteeism. Where do we go from here and what can be done about this problem? The Minister has made a start but he will not succeed on his own. I call on health professionals, young people, parents, the drinks industry, the Garda, the media, youth leaders, teachers and self-help groups to play their part to see how we can change attitudes and reduce the consumption of alcohol.

I agree with Senators' comments on an increase in the number of outlets and the deregulation of the industry. There is a link between this problem and the sale of alcohol in grocery shops and off licences. We must curb the availability of alcohol. Senator Bohan stated that there are about 150 people to every pub in Ireland. This is awful. We do not have a hope of addressing this problem unless we control the number of outlets and we all have a role to play in this regard. The problem will not go away given the number of outlets.

Research undertaken by the Mater Dei Institute has proven that when alcohol is less available and less convenient to purchase, there will be less consumption. Alcohol-related problems will be lowered if we can confine the number of sale outlets. Research has also shown that young people have access to alcohol in three ways, through pubs, discos and off-licences. We should ban alco hol advertising and sports sponsorship by drinks manufacturers.

Although I might not be thanked for doing so, I would also ban the happy hour concept which has an adverse impact on the social fabric of society. Many people on their way home will decide to avail of the happy hour from 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. or from 6.30 p.m. to 7.30 p.m. They drop into the pub when there are special offers available, but once one has consumed one or two drinks the night begins and it is the end of the road. This has an impact on our youth because adults are supposed to set an example. I am calling for a ban on happy hour drinking because I do not like the concept and I never did.

Parents can make a difference through improved supervision of their children and more liaison with other parents. Individuals who cynically serve under age drinkers should be reported. Parents have a big role to play in the community and the public should be alerted to the scale of the problem. Parents, teachers, gardaí and others in a position of influence should use their combined energies to object to the renewal of licences for offending establishments. This should also apply to venues used for school events – I refer to debs balls, many of which have become overnight events.

How can we intervene on behalf of young people? Although not currently practising, I am a trained teacher and guidance counsellor, and still have regular contact with members of those professions. In many of our discussions it appears that many parents have abdicated their responsibilities. In doing so they have increased the pressure on others to do their job for them.

The concept of invulnerability is one that has not been aired too often, but it is relevant to young people who think they can do what they like. They are fearless and think they can take risks without any adverse effects. In my experience, intervention in such cases has not been used often enough. Whenever we are counselling young people we should take into consideration the concept of invulnerability which means they have no sense of responsibility. Such intervention should be brought to the fore in our schools. I would also target parents to help young people. Because of the way of life today, where both parents are out working, young people are left on their own and have an unsupervised space between 4 o'clock and 6 o'clock in the evening, during which they have time on their hands. That is where the problem starts and that is why we need a co-ordinated programme to help such young people.

Local authorities also have a role to play in introducing by-laws to deal with under age drinking on open spaces, including public roads. That problem is not highlighted enough. A penalty system should be introduced whereby if young people offend, their parents will be made to pay a £1,000 fine. Such a measure could act as a key deterrent to under age drinking if enough people were engaged in monitoring the problem. The community is the real stakeholder in this matter. On many occasions, parents have phoned me in mid-afternoon to tell me that under age drinking is taking place after 4 o'clock or during the summer when the examinations are over. Fifth year students may have nowhere to go from mid-June to the end of June while they are waiting to begin summer jobs, so they have time on their hands. They find themselves hanging around in open spaces and public roadways. Most of them have been caught with drink.

We need more monitoring patrols by local gardaí which would put the fear of God into young people. This can be done in co-operation with schools and parents who have a huge responsibility to intervene on behalf of young people faced with such a problem. I do not know if we will be successful, but we have to combat under age drinking. There are no easy solutions but I have put forward some suggestions for dealing with the matter.

I welcome the idea of a training programme for those who work in licensed premises, but I wonder whether we are targeting identity cards sufficiently. The ID card system is workable in some areas but not in others. When a pub becomes crowded, bar staff do not have the time to check if under age drinkers are on the premises. The owners of licensed premises are responsible people who must train their staff to tackle the problem by watching customers as they come in.

We must not knock the Minister who will do everything he can. The problem must be tackled in the community at large by methods which include the use of identity cards. The problem can be resolved by working together in a co-ordinated way. I congratulate the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association whose submission I have read. The association's recommendations, to which I have devoted much thought, will be taken into consideration. The churches are in the background and I acknowledge their work. We all have a role to play in dealing with this issue, and much remains to be done. Everyone should be prepared to act as leaders in their areas in dealing with this problem.

Young people should cop on, but communities had better provide interesting pursuits for them which do not have to be drink-oriented. We should incorporate into the curriculum leisure activities to enable young people to develop their social and artistic attributes. I do not buy the idea that drinking is the only way young people can improve their confidence; it should not be. Today the Seanad has made an impact. We have taken the lead in deciding how best we can combat this scourge in society.

Mr. Quinn

It was a joy to hear Senator Ormonde speak with such vigour and enthusiasm. She said that the solution to this problem is in our own hands, as individuals, family members and communities. It is time we faced up to the fact that passing further legislation is not the way to tackle under age drinking. I cannot say that often enough. Legislation is in place and it seems to be working to the extent that it can do so. It was interesting to hear Senator Bohan speaking about this matter. Making further inroads into the problem demands an attack on attitudes but we cannot expect legislation to do that.

I was sceptical about the new legislation when it was introduced last year. Senator Bohan will not like to hear me saying this but, given the strength of the publicans' lobby, I doubted that it would ever be passed. I was wrong about that because the Bill was enacted, and I congratulate the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, for sticking rigidly to his views, particularly in regard to under age drinking.

I then transferred my scepticism to whether the new law would ever be implemented, and whether we would ever see pubs temporarily losing their licences because they were caught serving under age drinkers. It seems, however, that I was wrong about that point as well. The Garda Síochána assures me that the law is working and that it is being used. Some pubs have already had their licences temporarily suspended and further cases are in the pipeline. It was explained to me as being somewhat like the use of the "sin bin" in rugby matches. When the only sanction a referee had available to him was to send off a player, he tended to use that sanction very rarely and only in the most serious cases. However, when he has available the lesser sanction of the sin bin, where a player was sent off just for a few minutes, that sanction is used more often. The analogy with pubs is that when the only sanction was to take away a licence, it was not used very often, but the ability to close down a pub temporarily is like the idea of the sin bin. It is a lesser punishment and, because it is not quite so drastic, it can be used more often. It does not permanently deprive the owner of his livelihood or his family investment.

I have no doubt that we could improve the legislation further, but one of the obstacles is the absence of a statutory identity card system. This has been discussed previously and I am not entirely sure that it has to be established on a statutory basis. There may be another way of implementing it. However, there seems to be an enormous resistance, on civil liberty grounds, to bringing in such a scheme, though national identity cards are of course an unquestioned part of life in most of the other EU member states.

Perhaps it is time we did a cost-benefit analysis on this issue to evaluate the gains and losses. If we did, we might well find that the many advantages of an identity card system would outweigh the disadvantages. Maybe we should consider it more fully. For as long as we go on without identity cards, we are putting an unfair and unrealistic burden on those in the front line who have to police age restrictions.

I should declare an interest here because, as a retailer, I am bound by the law against selling to under age customers, not only alcohol but also cigarettes. We have wrestled with this problem for almost as long as I have been in business. In the absence of an identity card, one has to judge whether a person is under age. Judging a person's age is a notoriously difficult thing to do and it becomes an additional embarrassment when the person doing the judging is also young.

We decided to approach this by setting our age limit well above the legal limit, at 25 instead of 18 – Senator Bohan has already referred to the problems which this can present – but we soon found out that our customers would not stand for that and we changed it slightly some years ago. The signs in our supermarkets now read: "If you are lucky enough to look under 25, we need to have proof of your age before selling you alcohol."

We have soldiered along with this approach for many years now, despite the warnings of a friend who takes delight in assuring me that it is unconstitutional. Senator Bohan referred to the equal status legislation, but I do not think that is a major difficulty. However, it may be sailing somewhat too close to the wind under the Equal Status Act, which makes people more aware of the rights they have in regard to age discrimination.

For as long as we refuse to face up to the identity card issue, any under age law will be a comparatively blunt instrument. However, blunt though it may be, it is clearly a very useful mechanism. There are cases where a publican simply cannot be unaware that certain customers are under age and the law now has an effective way of penalising publicans who serve such young people.

I believe that the law helps to strengthen attitudes. Some years ago, when we were travelling in the USA, an air hostess refused to serve my son a glass of wine with his meal because he was then under 21 years of age. I was most impressed to find that standards were being maintained so strictly in that situation.

As I suggested earlier, we are wrong to expect that we can cope with the problem through our laws alone. There is a massive attitude problem and I am not sure how we can handle it. In recent years, it has become the norm for young people to drink together. They drink in large groups and they often drink to excess. The phenomenon of "binge drinking" is, as far as I know, something new, within the past decade or so. I believe it is a factor in the frightening escalation of violent behaviour among young people.

From earlier contributions to this debate, including Senator Ormonde's figures, it seems that we are experiencing a different trend in Ireland than elsewhere. Visitors from the US have told me they find it incredible to see so many young people drinking in Ireland, to a far greater extent than in the US. Perhaps the hard truth is that our society has not taken sufficient care about the way we have relaxed our norms of behaviour. At one time, parental control was strict, especially in the matter of drinking. It was common for people not to take a drink until they were 21. In recent years, we have become more permissive in our attitudes towards the behaviour of young people. Unfortunately, for some people that has gone to the point where parents think that the proper thing to do is to exercise no control at all.

I remember when I first started going to France being surprised and somewhat shocked to find that young children were allowed to drink wine. When I got to know France a little better, I realised that young people were actually being taught how to drink responsibly and moderately. They were given wine only as part of a meal, they were never given more than one glass and often the wine was well diluted. They were taught to regard alcohol as part of daily life, to be used carefully and in moderation. Such an approach is better than holding out alcohol to young people as a forbidden fruit which, of course, creates a desire to have it. It is certainly a better approach than allowing young teenagers to drink without controls, or ignoring what one knows is going on once they are out of the house.

Let me give an example of how pervasive our attitudes have become in this regard. Within the past few days, I heard a radio commercial that shocked me because of the attitude it reflected. It was not a commercial for alcohol. It was selling mobile phones, using a young male voice. I regret that I have not got the acting ability to portray the authentic accent.

Minister of State at the Department of the Marine and Natural Resurces (Mr. Byrne): Perhaps the Senator would have a go at it?

Mr. Quinn

I will do my best. It ran as follows: "Ah, it was a brilliant night. There was such a good crowd. You should have come out. Mark was given a load. Aoife got thrown out of the toilet and Nicola fell asleep while some lad was chatting her up. What? No, we lost Helen somewhere with somebody else. And then we all went back to a party. Yeh, and then we could not get a taxi and I ended up walking home." That was delivered by a young male voice on the radio, and it was not selling alcohol. At first, I thought perhaps it was an advertisement to warn against the pitfalls of alcohol, but it turned out to be an advertisement for mobile phones.

Running underneath all this is the assumption that the norm for a young person's great night out is for a crowd of them to get drunk to the point of unconsciousness. This is taken as so commonplace that, when I complained about the commercial to the chief executive of the company concerned, I was told it had been passed by RTÉ, that it had nothing to do with drink and that nobody else had complained.

I do not want to single out that company in particular because that is typical of a very widely-held attitude within our community. We should face up to the reality that we are not going to make major inroads into the problem of young people drinking, until we decide to do something about the attitudes which tolerate and, indeed, encourage such behaviour. Meanwhile, as we wait for attitudes to change, we could do something concrete about the identity card scheme. The law may not provide a complete solution but it can help greatly. I wish to refer briefly to Fr. Bernard McGuckian's proposals on behalf of the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. It is recommended that to combat drunk driving the maximum permitted blood content level for drivers be reduced from 80 milligrammes to 50 milligrammes; that the EU Commission's recommendation on young and inexperienced drivers be adopted and that a permitted blood content level of 20 milligrammes be introduced in respect of them and drivers of two wheeled motor vehicles; that penalties for drunk driving be increased substantially and should include the mandatory loss of one's licence and that to encourage the sale of soft drinks – this will be of particular interest to Senator O'Dowd – and non-alcoholic beers, a ministerial order be issued requiring that the percentage mark-up on these products should not exceed that which applies on a glass of stout.

I congratulate the Pioneer and Total Abstinence Association on the 25 recommendations it has put forward. A number of these are worthy of consideration and many of them are not necessarily to do with changes in the law; they involve changes in attitudes. Let us ensure that we strengthen the law – we may have strengthened it enough already – but let us also ensure that we change our attitude to alcohol and the problems it creates.

Labhrás Ó Murchú

I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of the Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Byrne, who is a pioneer. That is appropriate given the nature of the debate.

When I was young, one of my favourite pastimes was to watch a little dog following its tail. It used to run in circles and I wondered what it would achieve because it was getting nowhere. It is particularly important that the concerns that have been expressed in recent weeks with regard to the problem of under age drinking are not diluted and that we do not end up in a cul-de-sac or, like the dog to which I referred, that we do not merely chase our tails.

We are faced with a serious problem which is on the verge of becoming an emergency and our response must be appropriate. However, it will not be appropriate if we merely seek to find scapegoats because everyone can fall into that category where this matter is concerned. I make that point in the context of the recommendations put forward by the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. In recent weeks I was fortunate to be invited by the association to address its national ball in Tralee. I was particularly impressed not only by the number and calibre of people present, but also by the number of young people in attendance. I was struck by their ability to express their views in a generous manner, which prompted me to think that they could provide leadership to everyone on this matter.

If I was to ask the Minister of State to convey to the Government one message among others, it would be that it should respond in a positive way to the application for the funding by the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association. Perhaps the association, which already has the necessary structures in place, could be given £1 million per year. There is no doubt that we need the services of the association.

In the past, Irish people were seen as drunkards and layabouts. The enemies of Ireland were quick to seize on that image. For example, in the old Punch cartoons we were depicted as gorillas and shown as people who were less than civilised. People might believe that image was superficial, but there is no question that it took root. It took a long time to undermine that image and dismantle the hostility which promoted it. There are still echoes of that image today. If one travels to certain parts of the world, it is still not unusual for someone to shake hands and make a remark about the Irish being very good drinkers.

The Pioneer Total Abstinence Association was largely responsible for destroying the image to which I refer. It was successful in doing so because it was well organised and focused and had at its disposal a number of good leaders. The association went well beyond targeting the problem of alcohol. Everyone is aware that Irish people were deprived, particularly in the aftermath of the Famine when they were in an abyss of despair out of which it would be difficult to claw their way back up into the light. However, the fact that we were able to tackle the problems posed by alcohol and provide people with an ideal by which to live was enormously helpful. Many other positive developments followed in the intervening years.

We were not obliged to wait for the publication of a European study before realising that a problem exists with regard to under age drinking. Almost 12 months ago I spoke on the Order of Business and quoted statistics from a study carried out in a particular part of the country which covered two issues – alcohol and other addictive substances. The study to which I referred indicated that an alarming number of young people had consumed alcohol regularly or had experimented with drugs. It is not really possible to separate the two. People become excited about drug abuse and rightly so. Reports about it appear in the newspapers and public representatives and community leaders comment on it. However, it must be remembered that alcohol is an addictive drug and its use has implications for everyone, not just the people who imbibe.

Those who are addicted and who require addictive substances must have the wherewithal to purchase them. There are people who, in the past, felt comfortable living on their own in isolated areas. However, six or seven years ago a spate of attacks on people who were vulnerable took place. We saw pictures of them on television after they were attacked and we could not believe that this had happened in a civilised country. I refer to pictures of 80 or 90 year olds whose faces had been pulverised by thugs. We can put in place numerous community constraints and provide those who have been attacked with any number of facilities, but we will never allay their fears. They have lost the quality of life they had previously earned. The same applies to young people and tourists who have been attacked and mugged. These examples illustrate the fact that the harm caused by alcohol extends beyond those who use it to other people.

If we are serious about dealing with drug and alcohol abuse, our reaction to them must be definite, focused, united and strong in nature. We must involve everyone in that reaction. I have been reading editorials in provincial newspapers from around the country and I have never seen such unanimity on this issue before now. Some of those who regard themselves as progressive are expressing reservations about this age old problem.

When the Seanad takes statements on any subject on Thursday afternoons, the debate would normally wind down before 3 p.m. However, there is a long list of speakers who have already or who wish to express their concerns about this matter. They come from all walks of life and represent different political parties. Representatives of the licensed trade, parents, medical professionals and business people have spoken and all have said the same things. In many ways we reflect the general consensus in the country. If that be the case and we allow this opportunity to pass, we will have a problem.

This subject has been debated in society many times and we have debated it in this House on several occasions but there is one definite difference on this occasion. People have heard the alarm bells. They now want to see the fire engine and they want us to head towards the fire, the source of the problem. The community will not thank us, as public representatives, when there is such support behind this effort, if we do not respond in a very definite manner.

I would like to return again to the pioneers, and I am glad to see their representatives here today. We can talk about the image of the pioneers, the GAA and many other positive groupings in society but the pioneers offer something which I suggest is at the root of any solution we will find to this problem, and that is that we have to appeal to the idealism in young people. The pioneers have offered us a heady cocktail of pragmatism and spirituality and if adults are prepared to show that they have confidence in young people, young people will respond to that confidence.

I have no hesitation in calling for more legislation but I would add two more concepts to legislation – one is education and the other is the challenge to which I refer. If we put all the legislation in place and give young people a goal so that they can take back control of their own lives from the pushers, purveyors and peers, they will respond. Has anyone ever seen a young person who wanted to become successful in sport but who was not prepared to give up their time or divorce themselves from their peers while training to bring out the very best in themselves? I was on the Pat Kenny show this morning speaking about another issue along the same lines. There comes a time in society when it is not politically correct to do something but it is politically correct to ignore something. What happens as a result of that? When people do not put their heads above the parapet they allow the quality of life to diminish until there is a blight which is corrosive and which eats away at the very roots of society.

I could have used the 15 minutes available to me to talk about legislation. We have legislation and we will have more legislation but I suggest we should take the leadership from the pioneers, give them all the support they require and, at the same time, have the confidence in young people to challenge them to be different and not to ruin their lives.

I watched a television programme recently on which young people said that when they were out of school, they worked at night in McDonald's and various places where they could earn £90 in two or three nights. When they were asked what they did with that money, they said they spent it on drink at the weekend. When those young people get older and look back at the lost years, they will be very disillusioned at the lack of leadership provided to them.

I realise I have gone over my time, and I am grateful for that opportunity, but I will be very disappointed if we do not act immediately and respond to the spirit, energy and concern which has been expressed here for several hours, and which mirrors the concerns in society, when the opportunity exists. It may not come as quickly or as easily again.

Mr. Moylan

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on under age drinking. There were a number of meetings in the House today and I missed out on a number of excellent contributions on this matter. As one who is totally committed to the Pioneer Total Abstinence Association and who has been involved all my life with young people through the promotion of schemes and the development of games in various parts of the country, it is only right that I make a small contribution on this important subject.

A report appeared recently in the national newspapers which stated that Irish teenagers in the 15 to 16 years age category were the worst binge drinkers in Europe. That was not another country having a go at Irish people. The report was produced by the World Health Organisation and the Government and all elected Members must take serious note of that report.

To find out the reasons for this problem we have to look at advertising standards because there is much advertising of alcohol. We could also look at sponsorship by drink companies and the reasons major sporting organisations use those companies. I realise it is for financial gain but sponsorship should be outside the control of drink companies. We had a problem with advertising by cigarette companies but much of that is now gone.

I recently read a report which stated that the amount of money spent on alcohol here annually is £1.7 billion. The country can ill afford to over-indulge in alcohol. Much could be done with that amount of money in terms of developments for young people. We are talking about under age drinking but there are serious problems in many homes as a result of alcohol. Somebody referred earlier to young people reaching their full potential, particularly on the sporting field. Many young people dropped out of sport at 16, 17 and 18 years of age because they got involved in drinking. They were unable to keep pace with those who were not involved in that practice.

When we go to a reception there is usually wine offered but if one is a pioneer, what does one do? We have to stand there with one hand as long as the other because in many cases one cannot even get a drink of water. People who promote receptions for whatever reason should understand that many people do not take alcoholic drink and they should prepare for that.

We recognise the contribution of the many thousands of members of the Pioneers Total Abstinence Association and the way they promote the association at second level. The No Name Clubs, which have about 17,000 members, are also doing an excellent job throughout the country. Those organisations are playing their part but what are we doing to influence those young people? Are we taking the hard decisions to ensure that alcohol is not freely available to them?

I was involved with under age GAA teams. At minor level some years ago, there might be one or two people taking a drink. The situation is now that drinking is at under 14 level or younger. That is sad. Where are we going? What can we do?

Our young people are the best in the world, but when some take alcohol they are not sure what they are doing and become involved in serious problems. We talk about car accidents and young people driving. Cars do not cause accidents. The people driving them do. Health board statistics show that young people are filling hospital accident and emergency units, particularly at weekends. Something must be done to reduce the risk of young people getting involved with alcohol.

We are overboard in allowing the extension of opening hours in licensed premises and discos. People can leave a public house and move on to a disco to consume alcohol to the small hours of the morning. This must be dealt with. At one time young people drank on a Saturday night but now it is Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. We can see the consequences for young people in their performance in school and work. We are facing a major problem and must be prepared to decrease the number of pubs. Where a pub is closed, leave it closed. No one is short of a drink or thirsty for the want of a public house.

I want to read a poem about a young person who could be anyone's son or daughter. It is something that could happen to anyone of us.

I went to a party, Mum, and

Remembered what you said.

You told me not to drink, Mum so

I had a coke instead.

I felt so proud of myself, Mum, the

Way you said I would,

That I didn't drink and drive, Mum,

Though some friends said I should.

I made the healthy choice, Mum,

And advice to me was right

As the party finally ended, Mum,

And the kids drove out of sight.

I got into my car, Mum, sure to get

Home in one piece,

I never knew what was coming,

Mum, something I expected least.

Now I'm lying on the pavement,

Mum, and I hear the policeman say,

"The kid that caused this crash was drunk."

Mum, his voice seems far away.

My own blood's all around me,

Mum, as I try hard not to cry

I can hear the paramedic say,

"This girl is going to die."

I'm sure the guy had no idea,

Mum, while he was flying high,

Because he chose to drink and

Drive, Mum, now I have to die.

So why do people do it, Mum,

Knowing that it ruins lives?

And now the pain is cutting me,

Mum, like a hundred stabbing knives.

Tell sister not to be afraid, Mum,

Tell Daddy to be brave,

And when I get to Heaven, Mum,

Put ‘Daddy's Girl' on my grave.

Someone should have taught him, Mum,

that it's wrong to drink and drive.

Maybe if his parents had, Mum,

I'd be still alive.

My breath is getting shorter, Mum,

I'm getting really scared.

These are my final moments,

Mum, and I'm so unprepared.

I wish that you could hold me,

Mum, as I lie here and die.

I wish that I could say I love you,

Mum, so I love you and good-bye.

That touching poem is something I hope many young people will read and take on board before they go out at weekends. If they did they would realise that although they may be in fine form going out, when they take alcohol they do not know the consequences and are unable to control what happens.

This was an excellent opportunity to speak, as many said. I thank the Minister of State for coming here. He is a pioneer and is prepared to listen to the contributions of Members. We hope that together we can influence young people through the views and suggestions expressed today.

Dr. Moffatt

I thank the Senators who contributed. It was a fine debate and covered the subject from all sides, the perspectives of the Departments of Health and Children, Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Environment and Local Government, and the solutions. This matter must be taken seriously. As I said, it is time to call a stop. We must see what can be done. People suggested ways of stopping the tide of under age drinking. The ID card was mentioned. Parents must take responsibility. Education has a role as has the Garda and Departments.

I thank Senator Farrell for putting this matter on the agenda. His views are well known. The Government will take note of what was said. I hope that the licensing trade and every other body involved, particularly the public, will take on board that we are looking at this. It is time that society rowed in behind us.

Mr. Farrell

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Moffatt, for being here for almost three and a half hours. He has taken a hands-on approach as Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children. In the first debate on this subject about five years ago we had three speakers. Today there were 16. The tide is moving in the right direction –"There is a tide in the affairs of men which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune." The tide is right and we should encourage young people to give up drink. Senator Moylan's poem should be sent to every home. It was moving and thought-provoking.