Léim ar aghaidh chuig an bpríomhábhar
Gnáthamharc

Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 28 Nov 2001

Vol. 168 No. 16

Order of Business.

The Order of Business is No.1, referral motion regarding the Standards in Public Office Act, 2001, to the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service, to be taken without debate; No. 2, Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Bill, 2000 – Second Stage, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 20 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed 15 minutes and on which Senators may share time; No. 22, motion No. 20, to be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and business, if not previously concluded, will resume thereafter.

On the Order of Business, when will we see the amendments to the Pensions (Amendment) Bill and publication of its second half? Is it possible to allow a short debate on No. 1? It is a welcome development. We particularly welcome the fact that a former senior politician is now a member of the Standards in Public Office Commission, which, the Leader might remember, was originally a suggestion of the House. I am happy that Mr. Liam Kavanagh was chosen. A short debate on the matter would be a good idea.

The main issue I wish to raise – I am conscious of what the Cathaoirleach might say – is the matter of the High Court judgment and whether it is sub judice. Standing Orders state clearly that it is possible to debate a matter so long as it is related to public policy, will not be referred to a jury, and is raised in a manner which does not encroach on the courts' functions. Last week's High Court judgment has thrown the working of our committee system into chaos and we are uncertain about the rights of committees and how they may function. There are other serious questions about the rights of Parliament and our procedures. The latter can be sorted out and, if wrong, can be put right, but there are other more serious questions.

The current general debate would be assisted if time was made available to debate the matter in the House. We have a right to reflect on it and express our views, as is happening in every other medium in the State. I wrote to the Leader on Monday about it, and if he cannot make time available today, I hope he may do so tomorrow or soon after in order that we can, in a calm, reflective manner, make our contribution to the debate on the most serious High Court decision affecting Parliament since the foundation of the State.

The House may remember that about one week ago I raised the matter of people queuing for work permit stamps from increasingly early times, 4 a.m. or 5 a.m., for example. Since then it has been drawn to my attention that there is the same problem for the many thousands of foreign students in Dublin, Cork, Galway and Limerick. They, too, must queue. This causes much aggravation in universities and for the students who pay a higher fee than Irish students. While here, they do good work, in the medical field, for example, and it is insulting for them to be treated thus. The universities informed me that students might queue from 5 a.m. only for them not to be taken on that day. They are then forced to return, resulting in their missing two or three academic days. May we have a debate on this matter, or would the Leader of the House use his good offices with the Minister?

May we have a debate on our involvement in the war in Afghanistan? Military aircraft pass through Shannon Airport with increasing frequency, as reported on Joe Duffy's radio show. How comfortable are we with this? A debate would enable us to make the point again to the Minister that there should be guarantees given, particularly in the light of their behaviour in Afghanistan where they appear to have bombed a prison killing several hundred people. That certainly is a way to put out a riot, but it is not a humane way.

Then there is the question of the violations of the Hague and Geneva conventions by the Americans. As far as one can see, Mr. Rumsfeld has given an order to take no prisoners. This could not be a clearer violation of both the Hague and the Geneva conventions. If we are implicit in it, we ought to raise these moral questions and I hope we may do so. As friends of the Americans perhaps we could advise them it is not a good idea to use closed military tribunals.

Thank you, Senator Norris. I think you have made the case for a debate.

I ask the Leader to pass on congratulations to the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, on the compulsory acquisition of two Georgian houses in Henrietta Street. It is a very important development. The landlords were people who created devastation in Dublin. I sued them in one case because the corporation proved incapable of doing it. As the Leader knows the area very well, he might communicate my congratulations to the Minister and ask him to take the remaining house in North Great George's Street, which I did not get around to doing. As I do not want to spend any more of my own money on it, perhaps he will arrange for that to be compulsorily acquired as well.

I strongly support the call by Senator Manning for a debate on the High Court judgment in relation to the Abbeylara affair, which of course has much wider implications for the role of this House and the other House. There is a window of opportunity in that no appeal has been made to the Supreme Court. I understand that will be made next week. In any case, there are serious matters of public policy that can be discussed. It is appropriate for us to discuss these matters prior to further action being taken because they may significantly impact on how the work of this House and the Dáil proceeds. In recent months we have been very effectively expanding the roles of the sub-committees. If all that work is to now be undone by one decision of the High Court and we cannot proceed, it will have a very serious impact on how the Oireachtas can develop.

I agree with Senator Norris in calling for a debate on Afghanistan. Now that the war is coming to a close, it is very important that we win the peace. This can only be done by having proper principles underlying whatever political structure is put in place. We should have a discussion to ensure atrocities that took place under the previous regime do not take place under whatever forthcoming regime may be established.

I again ask for the Minister for Finance to come into the House for a pre-budget discussion on the economy. Already we have heard the announcement that 200,000 poorer families will lose the medical card because of a downturn in the economy and other proposed health measures. These are the important issues to be discussed. The poor did poorly while the Celtic tiger was doing very well. Now it seems they will continue to do poorly when things—

These are points that can be made in the debate the Senator is seeking.

I share the general concerns expressed by Senators Manning and Costello with regard to the High Court decision on the Abbeylara sub-committee. I am aware that we should not go into the detail of that and I understand the decision is to be appealed to the Supreme Court. I am sure the Leader can clarify that particular aspect of it. There are wider issues, to which Senator Manning referred, with regard to the rights and role of Parliament within our democracy and also the right of Parliament to set up investigations. While it may be the case that the Abbeylara sub-committee may be struck down or may on appeal be upheld, nevertheless there are issues surrounding that decision which would be appropriate to discuss, either immediately or after the Supreme Court has made its decision when the appeal takes place.

I ask the Leader to refer the Minister for Health and Children to the glaring gaps in the health strategy.

We cannot have a debate now on the health strategy.

I am not having a debate.

Last week a debate was sought and the Leader indicated he would give consideration to such a debate. That would be a more appropriate time at which to discuss the detail of the health strategy.

I understand that, but it might help if the Leader pointed out these glaring omissions to the Minister so he can deal with them. I refer particularly to the screening programmes for breast and cervical cancer. We are all concerned about preventative measures and the best use of resources. Surely the best way to use scarce resources is to introduce programmes which prevent loss of life and which aim to prevent illnesses in the first place.

I would like the Leader to arrange for an early debate on Northern Ireland. There have been many significant developments recently which need to be addressed. The Pat Finucane case, for example, is urgent and the family is now seeking a public inquiry. That is important to the family following the collapse of the murder trial. It is also important to sustain confidence in the judicial system. While we have had debates on Northern Ireland in the past, it is timely and appropriate to have one now.

I move an amendment to the Order of Business, that No. 13 be taken before No. 1. The Mental Health Act was one of the most important Bills to go through the Houses last year – it was passed by the House in July this year. During an Adjournment debate last week I asked what progress had been made on the Bill and I found out that the agencies which will form the commission have not yet been contacted. The 1981 Bill on the same subject was not implemented and I am concerned that may happen with this Bill. Some of the topics we addressed in the Mental Health Bill are not due to come into force under the health strategy until 2008. My Bill seeks to insert a date, namely, 7 April 2002, by which the Minister should make orders to implement the Mental Health Act. I chose that date because it is world health day and last year the focus was on mental health. I ask for leave to have the Bill printed. I am not asking for a discussion on or commitments in relation to the Bill.

I ask the Leader to bring to the attention of the Minister for Public Enterprise, Deputy O'Rourke, the urgent need for a debate on the city's transport problems, particularly the absence of park and ride facilities for people who travel by car into the city. The queues are getting longer and people must get up earlier to drive into the city. If park and ride facilities were provided, people would avail of them. Because such facilities are not available and because of work on the Dublin Port tunnel, trains to and from Drogheda and Dundalk are overcrowded. People have to stand on these trains and the crush in Pearse Street every evening is shameful and unacceptable.

The Senator has made the case for a debate.

I ask the Minister to attend at Pearse Street to see the crush.

As the House is aware, I have raised on a number of occasions in recent weeks the need to invite the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development to the House to explain in more detail his excellent initiative, CLÁR, to help regenerate areas of social and economic disadvantage in selected environments around the country. While reiterating my call for that debate, I ask the Leader to expand it to include all those agencies which currently operate in the west. It has come to my attention that one of these agencies, in particular, is acting against the best interests of local and voluntary communities operating in the areas it was established to help. The amount of red tape and bureaucracy it is employing would do justice to even the most hard-hearted of banks.

I never thought I would have to say it, but the banks are proving to be much more amenable, as are other State agencies involved in a variety of voluntary projects. As all these voluntary groups expect, the banks and other State agencies have taken a leap of faith in order to have projects completed. I am afraid the problem with one of these agencies, which I will not name, which was established specifically to help—

The Senator has made the case for a debate.

I appreciate the latitude. I might have made the case more emphatically than I had intended, but I feel so angry about this. Here is an agency which was established specifically to help the west and it is actually proving to be inimical to the best interests of those working towards improving infrastructure and social disadvantage there. I appreciate that time is at a premium before Christmas, but I ask the Leader to consider not only inviting the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, on the CLÁR initiative, but using it as an opportunity for the Minister of State and all sides of the House to expand on the role and future viability of some of the agencies established under this well worn cliché of trying to save the west.

I second the amendment to the Order of Business proposed by Senator Henry. I ask the Leader of the House to reconsider the reply he gave me last week on the debate in the House on the health strategy. It is quite clear from what the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, has stated that he intends to move quickly on the proposals contained in the strategy. It is not acceptable that this House should have to wait until next February to give its views on the strategy. We should do so as soon as possible.

On a related matter, the Deloitte & Touche report on the health boards, which seems to have been published and then withdrawn with great speed this week, should be laid before the Houses as soon as possible. I ask the Leader of the House to ask the Minister for Health and Children to publish this very important report as soon as possible.

I also ask that the Minister for Health and Children give a response as soon as possible on the issue of human cloning in the light of the news which has come to us from the United States this week of breakthroughs there, particularly on the fact that there is no legal or statutory inhibition to such cloning in Ireland should the technology become available.

A few months ago I congratulated the Government on its allocation of £85 million for Cork Airport. There has been a misunderstanding or the impression has been given that it is now not forthcoming from the Minister. The Minister is saying one thing and the board of Aer Rianta is saying something else. Priority seems to be given to Dublin Airport. It is sad to think that while the plans for Cork Airport were given the go-ahead, the impression of the board is that this is not the case. Can we seek clarification from the Minister? Senator O'Dowd raised another question relevant to the same Minister. Perhaps both questions could be answered at the same time if the Minister was available to speak to the House on the matter.

I raise the dispute between beet farmers and Greencore which has been ongoing for three weeks. I wish the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Harney, and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Walsh, every success in trying to bring about a solution to the dispute and also commend the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, for the efforts he has made to date.

Greencore is being very unfair, not only to beet farmers, but to all farmers. The prices of commodities one buys from Greencore have increased in the past year by about 25% and still the company cannot see its way to give a paltry 3.5% increase to beet farmers.

Farmers are also treated unjustly when they must take action. Their strike record is very weak. When they do take strike action, they are hauled before the courts while other sections of the community such as train drivers, who were represented by the ILDA which was not even a recognised trade union, can hold the country to ransom.

The Senator cannot debate the matter on the Order of Business.

I would like to see fair play for all, particularly for farmers.

May I be of some assistance to my colleague, Senator Kiely?

Christmas has definitely come early.

Order, please.

I requested the Leader four times to allow us to have a debate on the livestock industry – this is the fifth time. Senator Rory Kiely and I, of course, are elected to the agricultural panel. I would be delighted to broaden that debate to include the sugar industry.

It would be a bit of a sweetener.

I hope that will happen next week. I support the call by Senator Costello for a debate on Afghanistan. It is very important to have such a debate as the shape of post-Taliban Afghanistan comes sharply into focus. It is vital that what happens now does not resemble what happened ten years ago when the Russian's withdrew leaving chaos behind them. The world turned its back resulting in a Taliban Afghanistan. We are a member of one of the world's great economic blocks, the European Union, which, with the United States and others, will have a major role to play in the reconstruction of that country. A debate in this House would be a timely way to influence policy in the context of our membership of the EU as what happened ten years ago cannot be allowed to happen again.

I also support the call for a pre-budget debate on the economy. Those who saw the figures issued today by the Central Statistics Office on GDP growth in the first two quarters of this year will have been surprised at how flat economic performance has become. The extent to which profits by overseas companies are now being repatriated is obviously having an effect on employment. I realise that this House does not have power over the public purse, but great contributions have been made here on budgetary matters and that aspect of the running of the country. In light of recent events, it is a great idea to bring the Minister of Finance to the House to listen to a debate on the economy. I hope that can be organised before the budget.

Regarding Senator Connor's mention of Afghanistan, there will be a meeting of the Sub-Committee on Development Co-operation of the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs at 4 p.m. today. At that meeting the chief executive of UNICEF will attend to discuss the matter of children's rights in Afghanistan. Oxfam Ireland will discuss the matter also. We invite anybody who has an interest in the operation of aid or development in the wake of 11 September to attend.

During Lent this year Trócaire ran a major programme to alert the world to the issue of slavery, particularly child slavery. The World Cup, the world's biggest sporting event, will take place shortly – the draws will take place this weekend. One of the problems many parents have, in common with many concerned people, is that of the origin of the kits used by national and international teams. It is absolutely true that 90% of the jerseys, the boots and the rest of the gear for which parents pay a huge amount is manufactured by slave labour in Asia. It is time to ask the Leader to have a debate on the matter before the World Cup and before the contracts are signed for the jerseys and badges. There is a rip-off when teams change their kits. Slavery is involved in the supply of those jerseys and boots. I might as well mention the bodies involved such as Adidas, Nike and all these sporting organisations—

Do you have a question for the Leader of the House?

We should have an urgent debate on the matter which is of international concern.

On many occasions I have asked for a debate on the present circumstances in Palestine and I keep asking. Today is the international day of solidarity with the people of Palestine and I ask, as a matter of urgency, that the Leader request the Minster for Foreign Affairs to continue his great efforts to resolve the problems in the Middle East. We offer the people of Palestine and the Middle East every good wish and hope the latest initiative by the United Nations succeeds.

I recall that No. 8, Committee Stage of the Pensions (Amendment) Bill, was to be debated tomorrow, but do not see any sign that that is to happen. May we have a reason and a date?

I support Senator Mooney's proposal for a discussion on the advancement and progress of the CLÁR programme and the need to discuss the co-ordination of the different agencies, especially in the regions affected, in order that there is effective and good use of the moneys and facilities within the programme for the benefit of the people.

Will the Minister for Public Enterprise outline progress on the provision of fibre optic and broadband services throughout the regions? We have seen many items in newspapers relating to contracts being offered. It would be in the interests of the House and the regions to see how matters are advancing in this area. I would appreciate that opportunity being given to Senators.

I also support Senator Mooney's call for a debate on the CLÁR programme. May we also have a debate on a progress report on and funding for the Border, midlands and western, BMW, region, which the Leader has promised on a number of occasions? It is high time in the light of the slowdown in the economy that he held an urgent debate on the funding for the BMW region.

I also support Senator Mooney's call for the Minister of State with responsibility for rural development to come to the House to discuss the CLÁR programme. When the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, was in the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands he did a tremendous job and rejuvenated the offshore islands. It began on a small scale and developed into something substantial. The Minister of State was in County Donegal on Friday last discussing the CLÁR programme. It would be of benefit to the House if he were to attend a debate on it here. He has visions for the programme which could be of tremendous help in bringing life back to depopulated areas. If we must rely on other Departments, such areas will never be brought back to life.

I also support Senator Ó Murchú's call for a debate on Northern Ireland. As with the Pat Finucane case, I am most anxious to hear from the Minister what developments are taking place in the Robert Hamill case, which is similar. I would appreciate if the Minister could come to the House to outline the up-to-date position.

I concur with the points made by Senator Bonner, especially regarding the two cases he mentioned.

The constitutional review committee has done very good work. Will the Leader consider having a debate in the House on the defined role within the Constitution of the Executive and the Judiciary? I raise this matter not in any reference to the recent case mentioned in the House, but because in the past two years there has been a steady intrusion into policy from decisions of the courts. If this continues, it will create difficulties for both sides. It might be opportune to have a debate in order that the issue is discussed and redefined to avoid the possibility I mentioned.

Senators Manning and Ross inquired about the Pensions (Amendment) Bill which I understand will be taken next week.

Senator Manning sought time for No. 1 and congratulated the long-standing former Member of the Oireachtas, Liam Kavanagh, on being appointed. I join the Senator in wishing him well. It is wonderful to see him as a member of the commission given the experience and knowledge he has gained during the years. If we need an hour to discuss No. 1 when it comes back from committee, we could do so next week.

Senators Manning, Costello and Dardis mentioned the effects of last Friday's High Court decision on the challenge to the powers and procedures of the Oireachtas sub-committee considering the Garda report on the fatal shooting of Mr. John Carty in Abbeylara. Effectively, this means the sub-committee cannot continue on the course upon which it had embarked. The decision of the High Court is being appealed to the Supreme Court and the outcome of that appeal will have significance not only for the work of the sub-committee but also for the committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas in general.

In a statement yesterday, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform made it clear that, in the event that the sub-committee cannot proceed with its work on legal grounds, he is prepared to recommend to the Houses of the Oireachtas that Mr. Carty's death be the subject of a public inquiry under the Tribunal of Inquiries Act. With that reassurance in mind, however, we must await the outcome of the appeal to the Supreme Court.

Senators Norris, Costello, Connor and Lanigan called for a debate on Afghanistan, and I will certainly leave time for that. The Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs will meet today at 4 p.m. and Senators who are members of that committee should avail of the opportunity to attend it.

Senators Costello, Keogh and O'Meara expressed various opinions on the new health strategy. I welcome the strategy which is a positive move. Some £10 billion will be invested in the health services in the coming years, which must be welcomed. No matter what Government will be in office, the implementation of this plan is something to which we can look forward.

As regards the items pointed out by Senator Costello, his party leader held the Finance portfolio in the previous Administration, for the first time. The current president of the Labour Party, Deputy De Rossa, allocated only £1.50 to old age pensioners at a time of economic boom. The Celtic tiger was created, and handed over to the rainbow coalition Government, by the majority party in power in the present Administration, Fianna Fáil.

What about the Progressive Democrats? Had it no say in this?

The majority party.

(Interruptions.)

Senator Ó Murchú called for a debate on Northern Ireland and I will certainly leave time for that. I will come back to Senators Henry and O'Meara concerning the matter they raised. I spoke to Senator Henry before the Order of Business about this matter and I will inform the House about it tomorrow morning. I would ask Senator Henry to raise the matter again on the Order of Business tomorrow morning. Personally, I have no objection to the matter being discussed and I will come back to it tomorrow, if that is acceptable to Senators.

Senator O'Dowd called on the Minster for Public Enterprise to attend the House to provide an update on the new transport strategy, including the millions that are being spent under the national development plan. I will have time allowed to debate this matter at the earliest possible opportunity.

If Senators are serious about debating the matters they have raised, between now and 19 December, however, the House will have to consider sitting on 20 and 21 December to facilitate the genuine requests for debates on various matters.

Well done, Leader.

Do so, then.

Sit all night, if necessary.

Senators Mooney, Chambers, Burke, Bonner and Walsh called for the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Ó Cuív, to attend the House to discuss the CLÁR plan. This plan has been overwhelmingly accepted by the people and I will certainly allow time for such a debate.

When was the referendum?

He looked into his heart.

Deputy Ó Cuív is the first Minister of State to have given an undertaking to the people of rural Ireland, in particular, that he will co-operate with other Departments to ensure we get our full entitlements under the national development plan. The plan is not just for the west, and I accept Senator Mooney's point about agencies. In the years ahead, there will be a major depopulation problem in the midlands, so calls for such a debate should include the BMW area.

Senator O'Meara called for a debate on cloning. I think everyone in the House would like to see the Government bring in a Bill immediately as a matter of urgency. If the Government wants to initiate it in this House we will afford it the opportunity before Christmas. I commend the British Government for bringining in legislation in its jurisdiction and I hope we will follow suit here immediately.

Senator Dino Cregan, who as I have said previously is a Senator of long standing, raised the right of Cork Airport to have its fair and just allocation. Anyone who watched the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, on Monday could only be confident that Cork will always get its fair share.

That is not what the Taoiseach recommended in his interim report.

Senator Rory Kiely called for the big farmers and Greencore to come together. I understand the Tánaiste and the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development are at this moment meeting individually the people from the beet farming organisation and Greencore. I wish the talks well. We would all like to see this dispute brought to a successful conclusion, particularly for those hard working people who grow the crops. Hopefully they will get a just reward for their endeavours.

Senator Connor asked for a debate on the livestock industry. As I said last week, I can have time allowed for such a debate. On the question of a debate on the economy, the budget will be announced to the nation on 5 December. I propose the House should have a sos as usual during the budget. Perhaps we can then discuss with the leaders and the Whips when time can be allocated to discuss the merits of the budget.

Senator Lanigan asked me to convey his strong views to the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation and the Government in regard to the manufacture of international label products, in view of the forthcoming World Cup. Senator Walsh called for the House to recognise the All-Party Committee on the Constitution that is considering the role of the Oireachtas. Certainly I can convey his views to the chairman.

Senator Henry has moved an amendment to the Order of Business. Is the amendment being pressed?

In view of the Leader's commitment – he knows my concern about this mental health legislation – I withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Is the Order of Business agreed to?

In the hope of not having to call a division I asked the Leader two simple questions. I asked when the Committee Stage amendments of the Pensions (Amendment) Bill would be published. He did not answer that question. He said it would be taken next week. As the Leader is aware, this is major legislation. Half of the Bill is being published for the first time. There is no way this side of the House will agree to take it next week if it appears on Monday and has about 28 or 30 new sections.

The Leader totally misunderstood what I said about a debate on the constitutional position arising from the High Court decision. He gave a reply from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform which is totally irrelevant. I was looking for a much wider constitutional debate. If the Leader agrees to have it within the next day or two I will not oppose the Order of Business. He did not answer the question I asked.

The Senator has made his point. I have given him a good deal of latitude.

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh.

Is the Order of Business agreed to?

Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Cox, Margaret.Cregan, JohnDardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glennon, Jim.Glynn, Camillus.Hayes, Maurice.

Kett, Tony.Kiely, Daniel.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Fearghail, Seán.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim.

Níl

Burke, Paddy.Coghlan, Paul.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Henry, Mary.Keogh, Helen.

McDonagh, Jarlath.Manning, Maurice.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.Ross, Shane.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.

Tellers: Tá, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Gibbons; Níl, Senators Burke and Coogan.
Question declared carried.
Barr
Roinn