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Seanad Éireann díospóireacht -
Wednesday, 20 Feb 2002

Vol. 169 No. 6

CLÁR Programme: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann commends the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Rural Development for his initiative in introducing the CLÁR programme and its emphasis on the areas that have lost the most population in the last 75 years.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. When he had responsibility for the Gaeltacht, he was genuinely interested in rural development and he addressed various aspects of rural decline. The CLÁR programme is very innovative and emerged from his experience of dealing with Gaeltacht areas and State agencies in terms of the specific small and valuable needs of communities and the aspects of life that are most important to those who live in them; his success in the provision of essential services such as water and sewerage schemes, roads, electricity, telecommunications and transport in such areas; and his firm commitment to equalise some of the difficulties and impediments that have manifested themselves through the years. A key concept of the programme is the Minister of State's desire to allocate moneys and resources generated by our economic success to address deficiencies in these areas. There has been success in these communities which has been recognised by many people along the western seaboard.

The Minister of State devised CLÁR as a rural version of the RAPID programme, which is part of the national development plan. He has used his experience to co-ordinate Departments which have substantial investment programmes under the NDP and it is an ideal programme to focus on the specific needs in these areas. By targeting them in consultation with State agencies, investment from many sectors is co-ordinated to deal with their needs.

Areas are selected for investment under the programme on the basis of population decline over the past 75 years. These areas suffered such rapid decline that no State agency or private sector company felt it was feasible or justifiable to make any investment in providing services to meet their needs. The programme helps to provide a focus on these areas, whether at local authority, semi-State or departmental level, and challenges their decline. The decline has manifested itself in 51% of people within the CLÁR programme areas leaving there. The programme aims to alleviate this and support the communities who want to face the task of resolving their economic problems. The CLÁR programme is focused mainly on the BMW region – 16 areas in Connacht, five areas in Munster and four areas in Leinster.

There is an amendment to this motion and it may be the view that the initial capital expenditure in the programme is small in national terms. However from my experience and from looking at developments that the Minister has undertaken, I believe within the two year period of this CLÁR programme – from 2002 to 2003 – it is a sufficient capital amount to kick start much activity within our local authorities, State bodies and Government Departments. Given the Minister's enthusiasm and the genuine effort he is making within the Departments, I am sure he will get the necessary response from those agencies to work towards and invest in the ongoing support of this programme.

The programme works through consultation and the Minister has met and consulted with all the community bodies throughout the country, including people in the partnerships and those involved in the communities as well as the different State agencies. He has outlined what the concept is about and how it should work. There has been a positive response from the local authorities and from other agencies covering a wide range of interests from health necessities, in partnership with health boards, to specific needs in roads, water and sewerage and local improvements works which are so important to county councils. It is to be managed by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and in co-operation with the county development boards. Discussions have taken place, priorities have been mapped out and the Minister has made specific announcements in relation to the support he is giving to county councils as well as commitments in other specific areas.

There is a huge investment programme in group water schemes, which is an acknowledgement of communities' dependency on these schemes, particularly in peripheral regions. The Minister has made specific commitments to local authorities in that context which will alleviate much of the capital cost per household associated with these schemes.

The CLÁR programme is a great challenge. The €25 million investment is to last two years. In addition to the recent announcements in each local authority area, it has been warmly welcomed by elected representatives from the outset. It is challenging because it opens up a new element of co-operation between the health services, county councils, semi-State bodies and other agencies. I am satisfied that this scheme will create substantial activity and bring specific benefits to communities which are genuinely interested in improving their own conditions. It will revitalise areas that have declined and fallen down economically in comparison to other small towns and communities. This is the first time it has been specifically recognised in a programme and this commitment, which will be reviewed after two years, will show positive progress. The challenge it is presenting will show results and it will be necessary for future Governments to fund it until we have met the criteria of sustainable development and balance.

I welcome the Minister's commitment to and enthusiasm for this very welcome programme and I am satisfied that he will deliver the results. It will be praised among community groups for its success and will be recognised and funded by future Governments until the criteria have been met.

I join Senator Chambers in welcoming the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, to debate the CLÁR programme. I formally second the motion as proposed by Senator Chambers. I acknowledge the excellence of the work being done by the Minister of State, as will those who have tabled the amendment. In anticipation of a constructive debate, I suggest that the tabling of that amendment will help to clear up certain issues rather than cause negativity. I was present when the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, came to west Cork to address public meetings and I am aware of the enthusiasm with which his plans and innovative thinking were met. I know this is the case around the country.

The CLÁR programme was launched in October 2001 and is designed to tackle the problems of population decline and lack of services in rural areas. CLÁR is part of a comprehensive series of measures taken by the Government when it announced it would focus on quality of life issues in rural and urban areas. As part of the agreement with the social partners, the RAPID programme was established to ensure that, in the national development plan, priority would be given to areas of special disadvantage – both urban and rural. The urban areas have already been selected under the RAPID programme and CLÁR is the rural version of RAPID. It is a specially modelled programme for rural areas and its approach differs radically from RAPID because the problems are different. It is therefore a rural model for a rural setting.

When we look at the Minister of State and his understanding of the problems of rural Ireland, we can understand from where he is coming and the knowledge he has applied to ensuring the success of this programme. To put an end to the decline of rural communities, CLÁR will fast track the national development plan spending in selected areas. An extra £20 million – approximately €25 million – has been allocated to ensure its success. Some 16 areas in 18 local authority areas have been selected for inclusion in the programme nationwide, including Cork and Kerry, Tipperary north and south, Limerick and Clare in Munster, parts of all the counties of Connacht, parts of Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal in Ulster and parts of Westmeath, Longford, Meath and Louth in Leinster. It embraces a wide range of areas in the regions that have suffered. I welcome this programme and compliment the Minister of State on his enlightened approach because nothing had been done up to now.

These regions were selected on the basis of population decline between 1926 and 1996. It was decided that each area would have to have a minimum population of 4,000 and a maximum of 30,000. The average population loss in these regions was 51% and the total population that will benefit from the programme is approximately 280,000. There is one exception – the Cooley peninsula – which has been included because of the difficulties caused by foot and mouth disease.

The CLÁR programme is an effort to reverse the negative effects of the withdrawal of vital services such as the closure of schools, creameries, Garda stations, etc. Lack of investment is blamed on the decline of the population and the lack of cost benefit, and CLÁR aims to ensure that priority development is given to fast-track areas in greater need.

The programme is co-ordinated by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development in association with the county development boards. The role of the Department is to facilitate the reprioritisation of developments and, if neces sary, provide supplementary funds to Departments and agencies rather than set up a new agency. The national rural development forum also acts as a monitoring committee.

CLÁR operates through two basic instruments. It reprioritises investments under the NDP to ensure that these areas get priority of investment under the plan. A sum of £20 million, €25.4 million, has been dedicated over two years, 2002-03 to provide matching funds to Departments and other agencies for special projects, including some not contained in the national development plan, that are urgently required for rural development. The reprioritisation of spending relates to all measures covered under the NDP, including physical as well as social and community infrastructure.

The bulk of the €25.4 million will be spent on public and community projects such as roads, water, sewerage and infrastructure for the provision of broadband and facilities for the very young. Priority is given to co-funded projects to be undertaken by other State agencies and, in the case of community development, by the local community. Particular consideration will be given to basic social infrastructure such as child care, care of the elderly, etc. If this is not positive thinking to keep rural Ireland alive and to rekindle the communities we represent and that we want to see progressing, I do not know what is.

Special consideration is also given to economic issues, such as enterprise centres that will result in the employment of those who would otherwise have limited opportunities. The first step is a public consultation process, which was completed by Christmas 2001. Approximately 19 meetings were held nationwide, which were attended by the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, Deputy Ó Cuív. It is the objective of the county development boards to co-ordinate the social and community initiatives of the programme and the achievements that we look forward to such as roads.

Road allocations have been issued by the Department of the Environment and Local Government and while these are within the ambit of that Department, they reprioritise the roads in the regions marked out for priority by the CLÁR programme under Government instruction. These structures and services are being brought for the first time to communities that were denied them because of a dwindling population.

Approximately three weeks ago it was announced that regardless of the distance from the water source, one charge of £900, €1,143, will apply. This was as a result of the public consultative process undertaken. I suggest that the CLÁR programme reflects the determination and commitment of the Government over the past five years to enhance the importance of rural development in the future of Irish society. It is a unique opportunity for those marginalised communities throughout the country to participate in, and benefit from, a programme that aims to make a difference in combating the effects of social exclusion and negativity.

The Minister and the Minister of State should be congratulated for their efforts and we look forward to more announcements in future. I compliment the Minister of State on his work in this area. His heart is in rural Ireland and he has an admirable understanding of rural Ireland. He is to be complimented on the comments he has made both in the House and on national television in standing up for the rights of rural people, such as their right to build a home for themselves in their own areas. In this context there are organisations, some of whom receive State funding, whose roles need to be defined. Does An Taisce reflect the real life of rural Ireland? It seems to be its policy that a local family that has been in an area for hundreds of years can no longer build a house. I compliment the Minister of State on behalf of the country at large for the television debate he conducted on this subject.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

Seanad Éireann deplores the lack of any meaningful initiative in the CLÁR programme and further deplores the fact that the programme is given no funding to make independent initiatives; and condemns the meaningless role given to CLÁR by the Government that only allows it to be an irrelevant add on to existing schemes operating in the declining and disadvantaged regions that in themselves are inadequate or failures.

While I welcome the Minister of State to the House, I certainly do not welcome his enthusiasm for the CLÁR programme. The funding available for this programme will achieve little or nothing. The aspirations outlined by Senators Callanan and Chambers are very worthwhile aspirations for rural Ireland and I share that aspect of the debate with them. While CLÁR recognises the problems that exist in rural Ireland it provides no adequate funding to remedy those problems which mainly stem from the continual drift from the land over many years.

In my own area, which has been designated under the CLÁR programme there has been a decline in the population in the region of 50% to 60% since 1926-27. That kind of haemorrhage will continue and this band-aid programme is insufficient to staunch the population flow from rural Ireland. We have a plethora of organisations operating within the State, all funded to varying degrees and none of them operating with any great effectiveness.

Recently the Western Development Commission proposed a massive redevelopment programme worth £850 million for the western region and the Government rejected it. That would have significantly revolutionised western Ireland and is the type of funding that is required. Leader programmes operate in most counties at present and they are also underfunded. I was at the launch of the Leader programme in Mayo a fortnight ago and the type of funding that is available for projects in the region will not make a significant impact on the problems that exist there. While the CLÁR programme recognises the problems, as we all do, there is no serious attempt in this document to solve them and the money available will do virtually nothing when administration and other expenses are taken out of it, even though it should be matched by funding from other State agencies as well.

In his closing remarks Senator Callanan referred to the problems of planning in rural areas. Unless the Minister tackles those problems in conjunction with the CLÁR initiative and the provision of funds, he will not get anywhere. Ridiculously, it is now the case that rural people cannot get a house. People are the lifeblood of the countryside, people who build houses where their fathers and grandfathers lived. That is disappearing. Our planners and the objections coming from all sources will ensure that we will have no people in rural areas in ten or 20 years' time.

A recent survey showed that farm sizes are increasing yearly and they will continue to do so because the bigger farmers are buying out the smaller ones who are leaving the countryside. If we believe this programme will reverse that trend or solve the problem, we are fooling ourselves. There are agencies out there already and Corrib gas is coming on stream in Mayo, despite all the objectors who wish it would disappear even deeper under the North Atlantic, never to be seen again. There is also Government inaction in relation to towns in Mayo, the gas pipeline and the transmission line. We talk about CLÁR, but here is a ready-made solution to lack of industrial development along the west coast. It is being ignored. We are talking about a programme which, according to the Minister, is going to revolutionise rural Ireland, but it will do no such thing.

I am disappointed. I have no faith in the programme as it is totally under-funded. I agree with its aspirations and welcome its recognition of the problems of rural areas, but it does nothing to solve them. I would be delighted to be able to say that this is a comprehensive document which will add substantially to the regeneration of the rural hinterland we all know and love so well, but unless the Minister can go back to his Government and get the funding needed to implement the programme's objectives, we are going nowhere. Senators opposite may secretly admit to the shortfall within the programme.

I acknowledge that the Minister's aims constitute a first step and that he may ultimately get money if he is in Government long enough, but he certainly does not have enough to start the ball rolling. I can see that at first hand in my own county. Quite a substantial area of north west Mayo is designated under this scheme. One possibly substantial benefit is the increased grant for rural water supplies, but the provisions are very limited. In some areas there is no running water in households or on farms. They are not connected to group schemes and wells are out of their reach. A water supply is a major addition to a country house, but it does not constitute exciting living in a countryside that is being denuded of its people.

The Minister will have to go back to the drawing board. His aspirations are embodied in the CLÁR programme, but he does not have the money to realise them.

I second the amendment proposed by my colleague, Senator Caffrey. There is no need to go over the reasons the amendment is tabled. While I welcome the Minister of State to the House, Senator Caffrey described his programme well when he called it a "Band-Aid job". I compliment the Minister of State on what he did for the Gaeltacht areas in his last portfolio. I have no doubt that he means well and that he is trying to put the best face on a project in which he believes, but he is hamstrung by lack of funding.

The Taoiseach is not fully committed to this. He can give €10 million for pier D at Dublin Airport and €1 billion for the Bertie bowl. He has any amount of money for any amount of projects, but when it comes to something like this, with nine or ten counties involved, €20 million is the total provided, €10 million in each of two years.

To be fair to the Minister of State, he is doing excellent work. In his previous portfolio at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands he took certain stands. I always recall him saying of Gaeltacht roads that he was going to build them out from the Gaeltachts, rather than have them start in the cities and work their way in. He did what he said he would. He is wise enough, has been around for long enough and has been given a good enough grounding in his previous occupation to know how the system works. He worked it to his advantage in his last Department, providing the money while drawing on all the other agencies. He has brought that methodology to this Department and he is now providing some funding while trying to draw on agencies such as the county councils and health boards. The €10 million in each of two years that he has got from the Taoiseach or the Department of Finance is totally inadequate for the job he has in mind. It is a start, but it is not capable of delivering in what are the most disadvantaged areas in the State.

The most depopulated areas in the counties were targeted. A parish can be made up of two or three parts. My own parish is made up of three and two of them are excluded from the programme's provisions. It is hard to explain to those in the other parts of the parish that they are not included in what some of them feel is going to be a bonanza. I cannot see how it will be that and I would like the Minister of State to explain in detail how he feels some of the projects will work out.

One of the great problems is that no decision has yet been made on how the criteria are to be applied on the ground. Certainly, we at local authority level have not been told. Many have an idea of how it may work, but no one has full knowledge. One of the major disadvantages is that no decision can be made locally. While the council will bring a lot of the projects together, proposals have to be forwarded to the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development, which will decide what is to be funded and to what extent.

The Minister of State is constrained by the number of people working in the Department. From that point of view, he is working at a disadvantage and he is to be complimented on what he is doing with the few resources available to him. Senator Chambers admitted that the funding is small in comparative terms when one considers the size of the counties involved in the scheme.

To return to the criteria being used, most of the back up funding will come from the local authorities. Health boards and many State agencies are lacking in resources. Therefore, county councils are one of the sources into which the Minister of State hopes to tap. County development boards and local authorities seem to be the local co-ordinating bodies. County development boards are made up of representatives of the health boards, vocational education committees, etc. These boards do not have any great back up secretarial services either and, therefore, I want to know exactly how it will all work.

I will explain.

No doubt the Minister of State will explain, but it is confusing. Maybe I cannot understand it, but I am sure there must be some way of explaining how it will all come together. No doubt the Minister of State is well intentioned and he will try to work with all the areas where funding can be available, but some Senators said that they envisage the programme being used for group water schemes, sewerage schemes, county roads and local road improvement schemes. I want the Minister of State to explain how he envisages a local road improvements scheme being undertaken. Heretofore, the Department of the Environment and Local Government made a contribution to county councils. The county councils took all the schemes on board and notified the people involved. The people paid the local contribution and the work was carried out. Does the Minister of State envisage this programme backing up schemes which will be selected by the county councils? Will the programme take the place of the local contribution? Will there be additional schemes? How does he see it working? I want to know how it will operate.

In the case of county roads, most local authorities have a programme of works and there is a strict strengthening programme set down by the Department of the Environment and Local Government. All those are contained in a five-year works programme, which is forwarded by the local authority to the Department of the Environment and Local Government, and these are selected annually. Does the Minister of State envisage his Department doing works in addition to those contained in the multi-annual roads programme or does he envisage the funding being used for resurfacing roads, removing dangerous bends, etc? I do not understand how he will tap into the current system because most councils have a programme of works, other than a resurfacing programme, agreed at this stage. From that point of view, therefore, I welcome the funding for local authorities and his initiative, but he can understand where we, as local authority members, are coming from. We are disadvantaged in that we do not know exactly how it will work at local level. I presume the Minister of State has answers, but I second the amendment tabled by Senator Caffrey.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, to the House and congratulate him on the amount of funding he has available to spend on the CLÁR programme. As Senators said, the funding is not enough but people will never be satisfied. No matter what a Minister in his position said, there would never be enough.

I also compliment him on the way this programme has been devised. It has been developed for less favoured areas in Ireland, which have declining populations and a lack of services. These are exactly the areas we want to protect. We have spoken for a long time about protecting deprived areas in rural Ireland and trying to keep open post offices, schools and, in some cases, Garda stations there. Rural post offices are the key to these less favoured areas and it is important that these remain open. I know the Minister of State is protecting these in a big way.

Part of my area in County Monaghan is in the CLÁR programme area but there are only small parts of counties involved in it. There has been some confusion about the €25 million the Minister of State has to spend on the programme in 2002 and 2003 and I know he will explain it here. This money is additional funding. It is for roads, group water schemes and sports and leisure complexes. This funding has to be welcomed in these deprived and less favoured areas in the country.

No matter how small the increase in the funding for roads, it is certainly welcome. I welcome the funding which is available for my constituency of Cavan-Monaghan. It will help to get more road works done in the area. I especially welcome the additional funding for local improvement schemes because these are for lanes where people are living as they did in the past. There is a big waiting list in different parts of the country and any funding the Minister of State puts into these schemes will be of great benefit to the people who live a distance from the road.

Funding will also be available for sports and leisure facilities. We have a young population in Ireland and it is important that we keep them in rural areas and, in particular, in areas where the population is declining. It is our young people who will build houses in these areas and who will increase the population there.

I hope the CLÁR programme will continue and that it is not a one-off. I hope it is only the beginning of a programme that will benefit different areas throughout the country for which it was intended. I do not want to repeat what has been said, but Senator Chambers outlined the programme well. He also mentioned the group water schemes to which I referred. Group water schemes and sewerage schemes in these areas need help because these places were deprived of water and sewerage facilities. This was due to the fact the population was not sufficiently large to make it practical to supply the services to these areas. It is important facilities such as water and sewerage for less developed areas are included in the CLÁR programme. I congratulate the Minister of State on his presentation and wish him well with the implementation of the programme.

Cuirim fáilte Uí Cheallaigh roimh an Aire Stáit. Ní amháin gur comhleacaí é dom san Oireachtas, ba iar-chomhleacaí é dom ar Chomhairle Chondae na Gaillimhe. Rinneamar a lán obair thábhachtach nuair a bhíomar ar an gcomhairle.

Any enterprise which brings finance and support to areas in the west is welcome. Many aspects of the CLÁR initiative will have a major impact on the areas designated. I am pleased certain areas of Galway have been selected. We understand the area west of Maam Cross is one of those. I know it is very close to the Minister's heart, as it is to mine, being in the Connemara Gaeltacht. There is a shared area with Clare in the Slieve Aughty region taking in Woodford and Derrybrien, and the third area is in the Glenamaddy-Williamstown region in the north of the county. I am happy money is aimed at areas where it is accepted disadvantage exists because of low population, peripherality, etc.

However, the Minister of State should have improved the programme. It is administered by the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development and there is no local decision-making. This is unfortunate, especially at a time when the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and others refer to devolution of power and enhancing the role of local authority members. There is no local facilitation. This is detrimental to the programme. There should be closer co-operation and association with county councils and the enterprise boards. Senator Chambers said commitments have been given, and the Minister of State reiterated this. However, there is no statutory role as such. Effectively, the Minister of State is the boss and the scheme is administered from on high.

The programme has many good aspects but it is different from the RAPID programme. The latter has a local supervisory and implementation role with local implementing teams. As adult education officer with County Galway Vocational Education Committee, I will be involved in the RAPID programme whereas I understand – the Minister of State may correct me – there will not be any adult education or VEC input to the CLÁR programme.

The intention of the programme is laudable and any public spending in this regard has my support. There is a great deal of goodwill towards and interest in participating in the programme. However, there is a danger of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Will the Minister of State clarify whether this funding is additional or is provided at the expense of and at a cost to other areas? There is a great need for clarification and many people await it. The programme, which has many good aspects, may act as an irritatant to other areas outside the designated regions. Will the Minister of State outline his plans for involving local bodies?

While the people of Connemara are to be commended for the strong groups they have put in place, such as FORUM and other groups which do magnificent work, other areas may not have such strong groups. There is a need in such cases for community facilitators and for a more meaningful role to be given to county councils to assist communities. It is very difficult to find volunteers and there is a great deal of work in making applications. In the case of the RAPID programme, advertisements have been placed seeking skilled officers for designated areas. There is no such provision in the CLÁR programme and no back-up facilities for community groups have been provided.

The CLÁR programme is not as well structured locally as the RAPID programme and a great deal of tightening up remains to be done. Perhaps when devising the scheme the Minister of State was running out of time and had his eye on other events in May. He would be better advised to make haste slowly, festina lente. The aspirations of the CLÁR programme are good, but the implementation is aspirational. It needs to be strengthened. Otherwise, it will become another white elephant.

The Minister of State has already been commended on his performance on RTE television and I add to that. He is a man of great eloquence and he spoke very well. However, he is a member of Government at a time of a growing belief that Dúchas is inclined to object to every planning application in rural areas. A spatial strategy is coming on stream which, if implemented, will result in the countryside being denuded of population. The outline of the strategy states that all development should take place within speed limits and villages. If this strategy is implemented, there will be no more building in the rural areas of the county the Minister of State and I share and they will be denuded of population and new homes. If Dúchas continues to object to every planning application, with which neither the Minister of State nor I agree, there will no need for planning but perhaps a greater need for CLÁR programmes because rural communities will be devastated.

While the Minister of State gave an articulate and eloquent performance on television – some say it was verbose although I do not agree with them – at the same time the buck stops with the Government. It is fine for the Minister of State to go on a solo run saying he believes this or that, but he should tell the Government to prevent Dúchas from objecting to planning applications, not to implement the spatial strategy and to allocate money for the implementation of the CLÁR programme.

While the scheme is a good one and its aspirations are commendable, it has not been fully thought out. There should be a stronger role for local authorities and the statutory agencies. It should not be administered from on high because that will prevent it from having an impact.

The Minister of State when responding to the debate will address some of the problems people have with the programme. I am delighted a debate is being held on this matter in the Seanad because it is an important programme which comes at an important time for rural areas. More work needs to be done on the programme. I hope it will be implemented in a meaningful and effective manner but it needs to be strengthened. Given that the Minister of State is a man of boundless energy, I am sure he will be prepared to take on board some of the proposals in the Fine Gael amendment. If so, the programme will be stronger when implemented in June, regardless of who is in office, and it will contribute to the further development of rural Ireland. However, if the programme is not strengthened, it will not have the desired effect.

I support the Fine Gael amendment and in doing so I appeal to the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Cuív, to strengthen in particular local involvement in the programme. If he does this, the programme may become effective and stronger and he will be remembered for striking a blow for rural Ireland in a very meaningful way. However, if he does not strengthen the programme and make it more locally focused, he will be remembered for introducing just another programme to be included in the plethora of programmes which have recently been brought on stream with little effect.

I am pleased the Minister is here. I met him on previous occasions at the launch of a specific aspect of CLÁR on the Tipperary-Limerick border. I support the Fine Gael motion because I thought this programme would be a way of dealing with disadvantage in rural areas following on from the RAPID initiative for city areas. People's expectations have been raised and I hope I will not be disappointed when I go back to the people in a particular area in County Limerick from where my mother and her family came. This was a thriving area in the early part of the last century because the village had quite a good infrastructure at the time. Sadly, due to the demographic demise of the area, it is now struggling. All it has, which in a sense is interesting, is a state-of-the-art sports centre for young people seeking prowess in athletics. That is currently the beginning, middle and end of Bilboa. I am pleased the Minister of State included this area, the name of which fascinates people. This is the only area relating to Counties Tipperary and Limerick which has been included. There are many other areas in County Limerick which could also be included, given their demographic decline.

There was also a very interesting school because it was down to single numbers and one teacher. These numbers have increased but an extension which was promised during the lifetime of this Government did not go ahead. Unfortunately, the school caters for local young people. The Minister of State referred in his launch document to the vicious circle – if there are no services, there will be no people. If there is to be an increase in the population in the area it will begin and end with the viability of the school. I ask the Minister of State whether an extension to the school can be included within the funding. I am sure his Department alone cannot fund the work. Perhaps there will have to be a contribution from the Department of Education and Science. What we are looking for is the development of the national school in Bilboa which is the only element of infrastructure in the area.

The Minister of State will be aware that I met the sports group, which will have to establish its priorities for development. It built this centre with its own hands, by and large. It caters for more densely populated villages in the area where children are interested in running. The prowess of one girl led her to take part in the cross-country Olympics not very long ago. The area needs tarmac. A meeting with public representatives and others was held in the new year to establish priorities for communities. Having enumerated the priorities to council officials, the county development board and officials of the Castleconnell electoral area, of which this area is part, the calls from the community, which were very simple, were taken on board. Obviously the issue of a sewerage scheme was not raised.

We would like industry in the area. However, this would be difficult given that nearby villages with thriving populations do not have industry. There is a local health centre not too far away. We are seeking the reconstruction of a particular section of a road. Senator Burke referred to the Gaeltacht initiative, starting a road at one end and ensuring it is completed at the other end. A particular road which is due for reconstruction under the roads programme will cost €25,000, which the local authority will have to fund. What we are looking for from CLÁR is €15,000 out of the €40,000.

There is a difficulty in the Minister of State's initiative. Of course there must be partnership with the agencies, which in this case is Limerick County Council. Given the cutbacks in the Estimates in regard to tertiary roads, I wonder whether we will get the €25,000. It is a specific strategic road.

A sum of €40,000.

It is very small. I am not expecting megabucks. I am being very realistic because this would give people in the area the infrastructure to make their lives comfortable. Obviously the elderly must rely on public transport, which they do not have. When I raised that issue with the Minister of State he said there was another public transport initiative and he would not dabble in that fund. So far that fund has not come to that area and I wonder if it ever will. The contribution of €15,000 would be well worthwhile and it would mean the work could be extended.

The other bugbear is the local improvement scheme. There is such a list in Limerick County Council which I am sure can be replicated in all county councils throughout the country. Realistically one must wait from 13 to 17 years for these schemes. This is the reality in Limerick County Council where there is such a scheme. There is only one application for the Bilboa area, which is No. 92 on a list of 103. Its chances of receiving funding from Limerick County Council are nil. I pity poor elderly people who are waiting for the implementation of local improvement scheme in their areas. Some of them will probably die before the scheme is implemented.

The waiting list here is seven years. If we are realistic, it will keep people farming in that area because that is the way of life. The scheme will serve two houses and three farms. If CLÁR funding were made available the contribution required would be just €10,350, which is very little. This is a quality of life issue and if we think in terms of the millions spent and misspent – reference was made to the "Bertie bowl"– on various other projects, it is not too much to ask for the people who stayed in their locality. Possibly when they were younger, they did not look at the bright lights but gave a commitment to their own area. They are still there and I hope their quality of life could be improved by something as simple as funding to the value I mentioned. The Minister, having a mother from that area and knowing how realistic people are, knows they do not look for too much. They know exactly what they want – basic infrastructural needs plus the survival of a school, which is bringing in more pupils because of the excellent quality of education there.

I hope the Minister will be able to look back if he is in another Ministry – not in the next Government because we hope to be in Government – and see that his contribution to the Bilboa area was that he had had a role in coun tering the demographic demise and reversing the downward population trend by putting a little extra into a school that is the only infrastructural element in a very small community, which the Minister considered, in light of the minute study, deserving of financial input.

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghlacadh libh as ucht deis a thabhairt dom cur síos a dhéanamh ar an tionscnamh CLÁR agus an dul chun cinn atá déanta ag an tionscnamh seo ó tosaíodh é.

Is cuid den scéim RAPID é CLÁR, ach go bhfuil sé dírithe ar cheantracha tuaithe. Nuair a bhí na ceantair á roghnu shíl me gurb é an bealach ab fhearr le tabhairt faoi ná díriú ar na ceantracha is mó a chaill daonra ón mbliain 1926 i leith. Roghnaíodh 15 ceantair ar an mbonn sin agus cuireadh ceantar Cooley i gContae Lú leis ar an mbunús go ndearnadh dístocáil iomlán ar an gceantar sin i rith na géarchéime galar crúb agus béil a bhí ann anuraidh.

Tá codanna de cheantair ocht n-údarás déag áitiúil i gceist sa gceithre chúige. Is iad na contaetha go bhfuil páirteanna dóibh mar chuid den tionscnamh CLÁR ná: Corcaigh, Ciarraí, An Chlár, Luimneach, Tiobráid Árainn Thuaidh agus Tiobráid Árainn Theas i gCúige Mumhan; páirteanna de chuile Chontae i gCúige Chonnacht; páirt de Thír Chonaill, Cabhán agus Muineachán i gCúige Uladh; agus páirt den Mhí, Iar-Mhí, Longfort agus Contae Lú i gCúige Laighean.

Cheadaigh an Rialtas an tionscnamh ag deireadh mí Iúil 2001, agus cuireadh €25 milliúin ar fáil thar tréimhse dhá bhliain i mí Meán Fómhair. I rith an Fhómhair, thug mé cuairt ar na ceantair éagsúla agus mhínigh mé an plean agus ag an am céanna bhí cruinnithe agam leis na Ranna Rialtais éagsúla atá ag plé leis an tionscnamh. Ó thús na bliana seo, tá mé i mbun feidhmiú an tionscnaimh CLÁR agus tá dul chun cinn nach beag déanta.

I am delighted to have an opportunity to address the Seanad and to allay some of the misconceptions that seem abound in respect of the CLÁR programme. I do not know whether some of these misconceptions arise from a disease called "electionitis" or if they are genuine. As Senators are probably aware, this initiative is part of the RAPID programme that seeks to focus investment and development in areas which, through population decline or high deprivation, tended not to benefit fully from previous national development plans.

Urban areas were selected on poverty criteria, but I felt that this would be an inappropriate method of selection for rural areas and that the areas most in need of development in rural Ireland were those showing the most population decline. Senators will be aware of the syndrome of services being withdrawn from rural areas because of population decline and of population decline being caused by the withdrawal of services. This is what we are seeking to end.

I commenced work on the CLÁR initiative in March 2001 and the Government approved the scheme in principle in late July 2001. In September 2001, I was given a direct fund of €25 million over two years and an emphasis was placed on reprioritising investment under the national development plan. Some 18 local authority areas are covered by CLÁR – these were mentioned by Senators. The total population of the CLÁR area is about 285,000 people. I attended 18 public meetings in CLÁR areas to explain the initiative during the autumn. I concluded these meetings in December. These meetings were very well attended and there was great enthusiasm for the lack of bureaucracy involved or need to go round in circles, creating more plans and analysis, and the fact that we were just getting on with the job that people needed done.

The communities were very forthright at the meetings and we had very open question and answer sessions. I certainly did not curtail any suggestions or debate from the floor. I found that the communities were in tune with my thinking. They are fed up with plans and more studies. They just want things put right. Also, at that time, I had a plenary session with all the other Government Departments dealing with these areas. I also had a series of bilateral meetings to put schemes together. It is important to note that CLÁR is not a new agency. There is enough duplication and different bodies doing the same thing. Therefore, all the schemes in which I am involved must be in line fully with the policies and programmes of the various line Departments.

There are three elements to CLÁR. Rural proofing is the first. One of the most frequently mentioned points in this context pertained to community employment schemes. If they are not rural-friendly, we go to the line Department and talk to it about the problem. Planning was one issue we mentioned and I will say more about that later. That is what rural proofing is about.

Reprioritisation under the national development plan is the second element. This is what I call the invisible money. The idea is that one tries to reprioritise and frontload the developments towards the CLÁR areas. We know the tendency up to now has been to get investment to follow development. Therefore, growing cities and towns tended to get money because they were growing, but because they were getting the money they continued to grow. The areas that were dying did not get money. The whole idea of CLÁR is to try shift the money back into these areas.

The third element concerns the direct fund. Everyone is focusing on the direct fund because it is the visible part of the scheme. In view of comments made by Deputies and others, it is very important to stress the methodology being used in the expenditure of the direct fund of €25,400,000, which is available to me over a two year period. I have heard at least two Opposition Deputies describe this as a slush fund. They also made complaints that there are no application forms available for communities. I am disappointed that they have not taken the time to find out how this programme will work and why no application forms are needed. The reason is that I am operating through the existing agencies and not setting up a parallel system, thus not creating duplication and unnecessary bureaucracy. If I learned one thing in my long years as a community development officer and co-operative manager – I worked both voluntarily and professionally in rural development – it is that the more complication and agencies that exist, the harder it is for the people on the ground.

Earlier, a Senator spoke of providing funding to community groups to try access the system. We could also do a lot to make the system more accessible to people without having to spend millions of pounds on employing people to do so. At the moment, we have a chaotic system that even I find difficult to keep up with at times.

I will try to outline briefly the steps I have taken. It is no good dealing with the big issues if we still have houses in this country with no roads or water mains leading to them. Anybody who tells me that addressing the latter issue is not dealing with rural deprivation is talking poppycock because they are not talking about deprivation. A person without a decent water supply and a decent road to their house is highly deprived. We do not need sociologists to tell us that. The people tell one that themselves because the first thing they mention is: "Minister, I do not have a road" or "Minister, I do not have water. Forget about everything else until I have a road and water – I do not want anything else." I empathise very much with what Senator Jackman said in that regard.

There are two elements to the roads programme, the first of which was made public, namely that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, when making a decision on the roads programme this year, was able to finance 93% of the projects from the CLÁR areas proposed to him. Some counties have questioned this but the reason they got their figures wrong was because some counties insist on applying for more than they want. If they want €4 million, they apply for €8 million. Then it has to be cut back to €4 million. Based on the final submissions made by the counties in line with the request from the Department of the Environment and Local Government, I am assured that 93% of the applications for roads under the non-national, EU co-financed funding were funded this year. The average for the rest of the country is 75%. It is calculated that this is worth €4 million extra to the CLÁR areas.

However we have gone further. We have put together a special fund of €4 million, €2 million coming from the CLÁR programme and €2 million which the Minister for the Environment and Local Government held back when he was giving out the rest of the money. I have written to the local authorities and have asked them to submit proposals. I have asked Limerick County Council for a proposal for 100% funding on €40,000 this year. That should solve Senator Jackman's problem.

There are some Senators here from County Mayo. I have asked the local authorities there for proposals to spend €650,000 and if they are not telling the Senators what I am asking for, it is about time they did. This is extra money and if the people in Mayo cannot spend it there, they should send it back to Galway because Senator Jarlath McDonagh and I will spend it there without a problem. When people are crying out for money, €650,000 over and above all the other increases should make a significant impression in these areas in Mayo.

Coillte Teoranta has also agreed to make €500,000 available. By shopping around, my €2 million has become €4.5 million which of course shows that my contention was always well based. The initial funding of €12.5 million will attract huge amounts of extra funding if the homework is done properly. The problem in these areas was that unlike bigger growing areas, they could not provide the added element to attract additional money. There is now €4.5 million and I am waiting for specific projects to be agreed between Coillte and the local authorities to be presented to me so that they can commence.

Many of the Senators are also members of local authorities. I call on those Senators to ask their local authorities to do two simple things for me. First, they should reply quickly to simple letters we send looking for information because the quicker we get it the quicker we will answer. Second, if I write asking for proposals for €600,000, €300,000 or €40,000 they should send back proposals for whatever amount I ask, not twice or three times that. The letters specify that if they ask for more we will write back and ask them to cut it down, which leaves the choice with the local authorities.

Many Senators have rightly mentioned LIS roads and from my travels around the country I have found this to be one of the biggest issues raised. There are still people who do not enjoy the luxury of a road to their house. I have allocated considerable money to try to deal with this problem. Subject to final approval from my colleague in the Department of the Environment and Local Government – and there will be no problem with that – for every €2 spent by a local authority on local improvement schemes in a CLÁR area, I will provide another €1 for more roads in that area. If a council thinks I will fund all the roads in the CLÁR area and decides to put all its LIS money into the non-CLÁR areas, it will receive nothing from me.

I am not asking them to make a big exception for the CLÁR areas, but if they treat them fairly and spend the money as they would have done throughout the county including the CLÁR area, then having determined how much will be spent in the CLÁR area, which could be €100,000 in a big county, they will receive €50,000 to spend on even more roads. In that way we will begin to tackle the huge waiting list of roads particularly in isolated rural areas. I do not select the roads. This will be done by the normal systems in the local authorities. I see no point in asking CDBs, vocational education committees, health boards or anybody else to select LIS roads.

As regards water and sewerage, the big things happen and the small things never happen. The waste water directives caused huge problems for small villages and towns because they meant that all the big schemes covering an area with a population greater than a certain number had to be done first to be in compliance. That meant development in many small villages and towns was stunted due to the lack of waste water facilities in particular. Furthermore, a huge amount of water schemes are needed in these areas, which cost £100,000 or £200,000. These are not getting done because the local authority claims not to have the money.

For example, County Mayo gets £700,000 for small water and sewerage schemes every year. For every €1 spent in a CLÁR area, I will give another €1. If an authority spends €400,000 in a CLÁR area this year, it will receive another €400,000 and will have €800,000 to spend. What could be fairer? I have to devise systems that stop the local authorities from being tempted to skim the money back on a no gain system. I must have a system that encourages them to take the money out to the edges. This is quite a clever device to do so. I am leaving it to the local authorities to make the decision; I am not going to make it for them.

The group water scheme was probably one of the most cost effective steps ever taken. These are isolated areas with low population density and houses scattered away from each other. We all know the syndrome where the unit cost per house is bigger because they are in isolated areas. It is unfair to ask people to pay £2,000 to £4,000 per house for the provision of a basic commodity like water. When we asked the county councils about the problem, they said a few million pounds would solve the problem nationally. A number of schemes were costing more than £6,000 or €7,618 and only a modest top up was needed.

Under the CLÁR programme it is achievable for all of these to be wiped out within five years. The current scheme allows for a maximum grant of 85% of €7,618. The balance of €1,142 is then made up by the householder. The problem was that for more expensive schemes, the householder had to pay the full amount above €6,476. To give an example in old-fashioned pounds, if a scheme cost £7,000 per house, the amount to be paid by the householder was £1,900, which is more than double what he would have to pay if the scheme was only £6,000 per house.

Subject to the local authority putting the scheme on a list to which it will allocate its normal money and provided it decides it is good value and the best way to provide these people with water – again no dictation from the top – it can make a similar claim and we will provide a 100% top up. This means that no householder will pay more than €1,142 or £900 for the provision of water. That is a demand led scheme. It is up to the local authorities to choose the schemes in their areas. In the past these schemes were always left out because it was not possible to get the local contribution. Now it will be possible provided the local people are willing to pay the £900 and the local authority is willing to give the appropriate authority to the scheme.

I am pleased that some counties have already seen the benefit of this and are moving very rapidly to cash in. There are some schemes where the top up will be only €200 or €300, but it still means a 40% or 50% saving for the householder.

I have had discussions with Leader companies and the county councils about village renewal to provide car parks at heritage sites, etc. We have run into technical difficulties due to European rules which we are trying to overcome. I hope to make an announcement about that in the near future. There have been some discussions about national roads, which is a privatisation issue. I cannot say what the outcome will be.

Module 2 relates to industry, telecommunications, gas, enterprise, technology, business units and public transport. I am in ongoing discussions with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment about telecommunications, electricity, gas and public transport as part of CLÁR. It is better to deal with this issue centrally. The methodology we are using at present is simple. The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment has sought bids for the provision of telecommunications. There are many bids for carriers, for example, from Mayo County Council as well as from Roscommon County Council and Galway County Council which have submitted a joint bid. The Department of Public Enterprise will be able to make a decision on those bids and it will fund it. However, some of the smaller parts may not be funded. When it makes its decision, it will then discuss with us those to which we can apply our money in the CLÁR areas.

Everyone is talking about the problem with telecommunications and the fact that there are fibres running here and there. The last mile is a difficulty. I will give the House an example. One industry in Mayo approached me about the absence of a point of presence. It would cost the company an extra £60,000 in telecommunications charges because it did not have a point of presence near it. A point of presence costs £250,000. That is what I want to concentrate on. If it saves an industry £60,000 a year, it is a good return on capital. We are doing that through a sensible system, while piggybacking on the good work being done by the Department of Public Enterprise. The money must be spent in the CLÁR areas, not in Galway city, Castlebar or Dublin.

I am also looking at the provision of DSL. I will explain what that is for those who, like myself, do not understand it. DSL is an upmarket version of ISDN, which is more powerful and has a greater range. It would be a huge boost to areas, such as Ballycastle in County Mayo and Clonbur in County Galway, which do not need fibre optics but need ISDN or its equivalent. We are in discussions about those matters and we hope to make a decision in the near future.

I will consider the issue of the provision of the gas line to places, such as Belmullet, and airstrips, such as the Clifden airstrip and Knock Airport, and the provision of funding. As regards enterprise, technology and business units, discussions are ongoing with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment. It is drawing up a new programme and we cannot make a decision or get involved until it rolls that out. I must work at the same pace as the Department.

The community and social aspect is important. Ongoing discussions are taking place with the Department of Health and Children, the Department of Education and Science and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the provision of a programme for the development of necessary services in rural areas. We will do two things in the health area. We are working with the Department of Health and Children and I hope to be able to write to the health boards about it in the near future. We are working with small capital works programmes in rural areas, such as health centres, which are low on the priority list because there is not a population basis, and day care centres, which need funding but which do not seem to get to the top of the list. Members from Mayo will remember the Inishturk syndrome. It would not have got a health centre were it not for the 25% funding from the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands, which moved it to the top of the list.

Similarly, we are generating programmes to look at these issues and to roll out small but strategic projects which are important to local communities, which tend to be small, and where a small amount of money can bring big dividends. I am also looking at other strategic health initiatives which I hope the Department of Health and Children will propose. I have indicated budget levels as they are co-funded projects. Not only am I using my £1, but I am also using pounds from other Departments which would not have gone into such areas before. Some programmes have a multiplication factor of six, while others have a multiplication factor of two. The multiplication factor is three or four in terms of bringing money to these areas. That means the programme will be worth approximately €50 million a year to the CLÁR areas in extra investment. That is €250 million over five years. That means the €850 million being sought by the Western Development Commission is only three times more than that already lined up in CLÁR for these areas, which are the most peripheral areas of the Western Development Commission.

As regards education, our role is not to look after mainstream school funding. That is a role for the Department of Education and Science to which a lot of money has been given by the Government. It has provided four times more money than was provided by the previous Government. There is another role in education, such as outreach third level education, PLC and VTOS courses. I will put capital funding in that direction. If a secondary school is amalgamated, the old building should be refurbished as an outreach university or to enable PLC or VTOS courses to begin. I compliment the people in the BMW region for setting up Líonra with which we have had good discussions.

I am also in discussions with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform about the refurbishment of rural Garda stations. Communities want Garda stations kept in good repair to make them attractive for gardaí to work in because they believe a Garda presence in communities is important.

As regards the islands, there is no point reinventing the wheel. I know the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands is great because I worked there. It is staffed by great civil servants who know their jobs. Instead of sending other civil servants out to do the same job, I have given the Department an allocation of €100,000 to choose the projects in the CLÁR islands. It will nominate them and I will endorse their package.

If anything gives me a headache at community meetings it is the question of funding for community and sports facilities. This issue was raised at all the meetings, but it is almost intractable because there are a multiplicity of agencies dealing with it. Applicants must apply to seven, eight or nine different agencies to fund one small community centre. Examples of these are IFI, INTERREG, the peace and reconciliation fund, sports capital programmes, the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, county councils, enterprise boards and Leader companies. They all seem to be short of money. I quickly solved that problem in the Gaeltacht. I said we would give a good grant and that, combined with local contributions, would mean the job would be done. It made it easy because applicants only had to go to one agency to get one good grant. It is all the State's money, it is not European money. Why do we have to have nine agencies employing civil servants to write nine cheques? It does not make sense.

I met my colleague, the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, this evening. We are trying to work out a simple system which does not create more bureaucracy and another agency to tease the people but which does something to help them. I hope to be able to make an announcement about this in the near future. I am sure that if I proceed in the way we want to, the community will be pleased with the approach which will be simple and effective.

Most of the money I am talking about is capital because the national development plan is focused on capital. However, my experience is that if one gets capital development, the current money will flow. If I build a day care centre or a nursing home unit, I will get the money to run it. The lack of capital facilities in these areas often inhibits current money. I have not seen enterprise units lying idle even on the tops of mountains where they were built by Údarás na Gaeltachta. The doubting Thomases laughed, but those units were filled and they provided jobs.

I would hope that, with the indulgence of the Chair, I could address some further issues. Regarding the administration of this programme, I currently have two civil servants working on it on a day-to-day basis. I have asked for a total staff complement of five. I believe this is a sufficient number because I am getting everybody else to do the work – the local authority looks after the road works schemes—

I ask the Minister to conclude.

With the indulgence of the House, could I have another five minutes to conclude?

I ask that we give additional time for Private Members' business because it was 6.30 p.m. when we—

Acting Chairman

The additional time will be given automatically.

I will try to be very brief. The reason for the effectiveness of CLÁR is that it piggybacks on every other agency, using their existing systems. This makes it an efficient programme. The beauty of the scheme is that I am not the one who makes the decisions – the individual county councils have that responsibility. I do not know about the road that Senator Jackman has mentioned, but I have no doubt that Limerick County Council will know about it in due course. It is the people at the lowest level of agency who are making the decisions. As Minister, all I do is allocate the money and set the parameters within which such decisions can be made.

Not one euro of the €12.5 million allocated to this scheme has been spent on administration. The Department's administrative budget covers that. Every last penny of the money goes toward delivery on the ground. I pride myself on not having set up more groups to run this scheme. It is not for me to criticise urban RAPID, but I would be less than honest if I did not say I am proud of the fact that we are already in the position of rolling out the CLÁR schemes, while RAPID has only just been announced. The water, road and health schemes are under way already, and it is a huge job to do this across nine or ten Departments when one has to secure the agreement of each of the players involved. In fairness to the Departments, they have understood our needs, and I have no doubt that, by the end of this year, the Senators who expressed doubts about CLÁR today will have changed their minds on the matter when they see how well it works.

Members have doubted me in the past, when I was Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. They have since had to accept that big things happened in that area because the same leverage system of money was used. I have no doubt that such a system is going to work in the case of CLÁR.

I do not want to be at loggerheads with the Western Development Commission—

Acting Chairman

I ask the Minister to conclude, please. This is Private Members' time.

The Western Development Commission was not turned down by the Taoiseach. We studied each project it proposed and produced a detailed response on each one, telling it how it was progressing. Each one of the projects the commission has referred to is progressing. For example, a strategy group has been set up to examine the opening of railway lines, including the one that the commission was talking about. Similarly, action is being taken on various road schemes. I asked the Western Development Commission to give me its views on whether the proposed gasline should run from Claremorris to Sligo, or whether it should be run across the Ox Mountains. I await its reply with interest; I know which route I favour.

As highlighted by An Bord Pleanála, the main problem with rural planning is sustainable development guidelines. These guidelines, introduced by the previous Government in April 1997, stated that what they termed "urban-generated housing"– that is, houses built by people who did not work the land – should not be permitted in rural Ireland. I assure the Senators that, as part of the process for the spatial strategy, the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development has been consulted and we have made a very strong case for this policy to be changed. Those people who have a genuine connection with the countryside should be allowed to settle there. I will wait until the spatial strategy is published before I make any judgment on it. I reiterate that existing planning problems are the result of action taken by the previous Government.

Dúchas has become the whipping boy of everybody who seeks to blame their planning difficulties on people other than themselves. It amazes me that local authority members blame Dúchas when planning permission is refused. When I worked in that Department, I used to check how many planning objections per month were being lodged with Galway County Council. Out of the 6,000 applications made annually, fewer than one per month was objected to by Dúchas, and most of these objections were conditional. In my time at that Department, not one house for a family was ever refused planning permission. Where the application satisfied all other regulations, Dúchas always negotiated a compromise to allow the pro ject to go ahead. I understand that is the situation nationally. Therefore, any planning difficulties that exist are with An Bord Pleanála and the local authorities. Dúchas is not to blame.

I will be very brief, because having listened to the Minister for the last half an hour, I feel profoundly sorry for him in the task that he has. He certainly seems to have trouble in all Departments. The CLÁR programme is a worthwhile one in that it is trying to co-ordinate activities between various Departments and local authorities. Such co-ordination has been a grave difficulty in the past.

I want to focus on the issue of rural water supply. In Athenry recently, a very serious issue arose when the drinking water supply there was polluted. I am not sure whether or not the cause of this pollution has been established, but it did not just involve bacteria; chemicals injurious to human health were also present in the supply.

I sometimes think that we do not take these issues seriously. Last year, as I am sure the Minister will remember because he is a very well-read man, in the eastern part of Canada a small municipal water supply was polluted with cow manure containing an organism called Cryptosporidium, and this caused the deaths of seven people. When we have these sorts of problems, we are inclined to think of them as a cosmetic issue, but there are very serious health implications involved.

While I applaud the Minister's efforts to bring proper drinking water supplies to all houses, a great deal of effort has to be put into encouraging and teaching people about the correct maintenance of these supplies. Sometimes I do not think people understand that the 41% of rural water schemes which are polluted by human and animal faeces are polluted from a source that is in close proximity to the scheme. When I was in Africa, I was invited to the opening of a rural water scheme project which Irish agencies had been involved in setting up. I asked the people there how often they intended to test the water quality and they expressed shock that such a thing was necessary. I often think that I would get much the same response if I asked similar questions at Irish rural water schemes.

A big effort has to be made to encourage people to maintain these schemes more effectively. I have read reports issued by the Environmental Protection Agency which suggest that, frequently, very little effort is put in to the maintenance of these schemes. I would hope that when the Minister, quite rightly, allocates money for the provision of these schemes, questions will be asked regarding who is going to take control of the testing of the water supply to ensure its safety. I know the Minister is concerned about planning being refused for single houses, but we must be extraordinarily careful that the sewage treatment schemes which are put into these houses are not a source of pollution. It might well be better to aim for having three or four houses in any new development, in order that a more sophisticated scheme could be put in place. I accept that this is not the sort of scenario the Minister of State likes to envisage.

I raised with the Department of the Environment and Local Government the possibility of giving an extra grant in cases where a proprietary treatment plant is constructed in conjunction with a house. I was asked if I was trying to keep the companies going and informed that a septic tank, properly constructed, is a perfectly efficient way of disposing of effluent.

Perhaps the Minister of State will give further consideration to the type of scheme to which I refer.

My thinking was along the same lines as the Senator's.

We must also remember that the spreading of slurry has posed major problems. Groundwater in this country is frequently polluted as a result of the spreading of slurry. This leads to particular difficulties in the west where there is karst limestone and an absence of a good soil base through which water can be filtered. The natural filtration offered by soil is excellent. However, the spreading of slurry in areas where there is heavy rain means that it will filter down into the groundwater and make its way into people's drinking water. In addition to providing money, the Minister of State must try to engender a sense of responsibility among those who are in charge of local schemes. Someone must take responsibility for the testing of water.

Another area to which I wish to refer is health – the Minister of State did not say much about it. I support the establishment of day centres and other initiatives the Minister of State is trying to get off the ground. He may not know it, but the Department of Health and Children is encountering serious difficulties in terms of the flight of doctors from rural areas. A huge number of GMS posts are available in rural areas but no applications are being made in respect of them. This is a serious matter because people will not be encouraged to remain in such areas unless they can be sure of access to primary medical care.

A number of good suggestions were made earlier about information technology. It is important that rural health centres are linked, through information technology, to small adjacent hospitals and major medical centres. For example, enormous developments in terms of diagnosis could be made in the west through the linking of medical bases there with medical centres in Galway. We must ensure that people have access to these sorts of facilities. In addition, and with the exception of the enormously rich, medical cards should be given to everyone in these areas. I am sure the Minister of State has it in his power to ensure that this happens because it will be of major assistance to people living in these areas.

I strongly commend the Minister of State for trying to do something about sport. It is sad to think that people who live in rural areas have less chance of becoming involved in sport than those who live in the suburbs of Dublin.

No, the opposite is true.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House agus déanaim comhgairdeas leis as ucht tionscnamh CLÁR a chur ar bun. Tá an-chuimhne againn ar obair an Aire Stáit nuair a bhí sé sa Roinn Ealaíon, Oidhreachta, Gaeltachta agus Oileán.

We witnessed what the Minister of State achieved when he served in the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. I will refer later to a number of projects that were initiated when he was there.

When he announced the CLÁR programme, I thought it was merely a dream. I assure him, however, on foot of the report the Donegal County Enterprise Board presented to us at our area meeting on Friday last, that much can be achieved in the towns and villages included in the programme. I agree with Senator Henry's comments about the GMS and the flight of doctors from rural areas. The NoWDOC system operates in north west Donegal and people are clamouring for its expansion to south east Donegal. However, the major difficulty with the system is trying to attract doctors into rural areas such as west Donegal.

I wish to refer to a number of points raised by the Minister of State, particularly those relating to roads. We have, for the first time, received a report from Donegal County Council's engineers on the large number of roads in need of upgrading and repair in the county. Even with the funding we received under the non-national roads programme, many roads remain in poor condition. However, that is a matter for another day.

I wish to refer to the LIS programme and the increases that should be available under it this year. The Minister of State represents a rural constituency which is also represented by the Minister of State with responsibility for local improvement schemes. In my opinion, the Department of the Environment and Local Government made a major blunder last year by tightening up the schemes in relation to land holdings on roads. The Minister of State is aware that, with the exception of keeping mountain sheep in the west of the county, it is difficult to be involved in agriculture in Donegal. I plead with the Minister of State to consult his colleague to see if the scheme can be loosened up, particularly in relation to the many private roads in County Donegal. The Minister of State referred to letting families have roads which lead up to their houses. I am not seeking the provision of tarmacadam roads around these people's houses, but the provision of roads leading to those houses. If there are not two farm holdings on a road, it is disqualified by Donegal County Council. I ask the Minister of State to consult the Minister of State at the Department of the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Molloy, about this matter.

A number of major sewerage schemes have been put in place in south west Donegal in the past two to three years and I hope that others at Dungloe and Glenties will enter the planning and design phase soon. However, in my electoral area alone, there is a need for in the region of 12 or 13 sewerage schemes for small villages and towns. The cost of this would be approximately £13 million. Many of these towns and villages – Loughanure, Crolly, Rannafast, Fintown, Arranmore, Kincasslagh, Maghery, Doochary and Lettermacaward – are situated in Gaeltacht areas. This shows that the west and, in particular, Gaeltacht areas were neglected by successive Governments before this Administration took office.

I make a special plea to the Minister of State in respect of the scheme for Gortahork, a town of reasonable size with which he is familiar. He and I will have long left politics by the time Department of the Environment and Local Government schemes reach Gortahork, which is thirty-seventh on the priority needs list of Donegal County Council. If any scheme is chosen for inclusion on the CLÁR programme, I hope it will be one for Gortahork.

There are a number of other matters to which I wish to refer. We put a great deal of pressure on the Minister of State when he was at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands in relation to village renewal schemes. I am sure Donegal County Council has identified a total cost for its needs and I am sure it will be obliged to break it down on an annual basis. There are many small towns and villages which have not yet received funding under the renewal schemes to which I refer and I hope the CLÁR programme will address this point.

I wish to refer to one scheme that has been included by Donegal County Council. In the past, the council built housing schemes without utilising any design or landscaping plans and merely ran roads into these schemes. The residents of three housing estates in Dungloe town have been very active in the past three or four years in terms of having their estates upgraded. I tried continually to obtain funding from Donegal County Council for the maintenance of the housing schemes in question. In its plan it has included a figure of £10,000 for landscaping and upgrading. We made an application to the Ireland Fund for funding of £20,000 but, unfortunately, it did not succeed. If we could obtain the £10,000 being sought by the council, it would be a step forward.

I wish the Minister of State well. I do not like to offend Senator Caffrey, but I hope the Mini ster of State will be returned to the position he holds at present. He has made a great start. It is a question now of consolidating and obtaining funding. I hope that, for the first time, the west and the other areas that have been eligible under the CLÁR programme will receive the recognition and funding they need to help them make the countryside more attractive to those who have left and may return and to future generations.

I thank the Minister of State for his explanation of the CLÁR programme. In very simple terms, he outlined how he is dealing with the programme and the tremendous progress that has been made with it in a very short period. He has had experience of dealing with State agencies as the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands. They have been flexible and amenable to him and they have experience of co-funding in relation to other projects. That is very welcome.

The Minister of State is now dealing with other areas which touch on educational and health issues. The recreational aspect is very important and I welcome his developments in collaboration with the Minister for Tourism, Sport and Recreation, Deputy McDaid, in that regard. His financial commitment to the local authorities is very positive and provides a great incentive. I have no doubt that it will bring substantial results to the people concerned.

Some local authorities have a stated policy, as is the case in County Mayo, of supporting the principle that, where there are at least two householders on a road who need transportation and access, they will have tarred roads. We have received substantial funding from the Department of the Environment and Local Government for local improvement schemes. With the support of the Minister of State, I believe we can achieve our targets over a reasonable period. The overall thrust and effectiveness of the programme is excellent and has been very well explained to the House tonight. While it is not for me to speak on behalf of my colleagues on the other side of the House, I believe they fully understand the Minister of State's commitment to this programme. I have no doubt, on the basis of the results of the programme, that the Government will provide further financial support in future.

Having regard to the work of the Minister of State and the explanation of the programme he has given, I suggest the Opposition considers withdrawing the amendment to the motion. On the basis of the Minister of State's proven record at the Department of Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and on the strength of the programme he has outlined, I assure the House that it will be delivered effectively and will make a positive contribution to rural Ireland.

Amendment put.

Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Henry, Mary.

Jackman, Mary.Keogh, Helen.McDonagh, Jarlath.Ridge, Thérèse.

Níl

Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Chambers, Frank.Cregan, John.Farrell, Willie.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Glynn, Camillus.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.

Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.Nolan, M. J.Norris, David.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Ross, Shane.Walsh, Jim.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Burke and Caffrey; Níl, Senators Farrell and Quill.
Amendment declared lost.
Question put and declared carried.
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