The Order of Business is No. 1, the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Bill 2004 — Committee Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 2 p.m.
Order of Business.
When does the Government intend to bring the Social Welfare Bill to the House, giving effect to some of the changes announced in the budget? This will be the first Social Welfare Bill introduced by Deputy Brennan as Minister for Social and Family Affairs. The Minister has on many occasions displayed an ability to say different things to different people. He told us before the recent budget that the savage 16 cutbacks announced last year would be brought to an end. Three of those will be tinkered with but 13 will remain in place. When will this House have a chance to hear the Minister account for his pre-budget and post-budget statements?
It is acceptable for the Senator to ask when the Bill will be debated but he may not discuss its contents.
I am conscious of that and I thank the Cathaoirleach for giving me the run on it anyway. When will we have a chance to discuss the Social Welfare Bill?
We had an excellent debate on 3 November about the national car test. The Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, gave me a commitment that he would publish the PricewaterhouseCoopers report on the testing regime for 2002 and 2003. He further committed himself by saying, "I understand reports were also published in 2002 and 2003 and I commit to the House that they will be published by the end of this month." That referred to the end of November. Will the Leader establish why the Minister of State has not published those reports, in line with the commitment he solemnly gave to this House? Will she use her good offices to ensure that both reports are published as soon as possible because they depended on the rather ridiculous Government amendment that night?
I listened yesterday to several representatives of bereaved families of RUC members in the North discussing the Detective Garda McCabe case. All of them oppose the early release of those responsible for murdering Detective Garda McCabe. We should be clear that when we voted for the Good Friday Agreement and for the release of murderers and others from our prisons we were conscious that there were 307 bereaved families of RUC members in the North and we thought that was the price we had to pay, but that should have been the end of the matter.
This case is an addition to the Good Friday Agreement. It is not part of it and it is very unfair of people to present it as such. I understand the Government's difficulty on which Senator Mansergh made a fair comment yesterday. Who demands this release? It is not the representatives of the bereaved families of RUC members and it is not the Government. It appears to be Sinn Féin and I want to know its reasons. We are entitled to know the reasons.
I accept Senator Mansergh's point that the Government is under pressure but when was that pressure brought to bear? The Government should have made its position clear at the beginning and that there would be no moving from it. Now it is being undermined by some force and there is a lack of clarity about this issue. We need to know who it is. If action must be taken let us and the electorate know who is demanding this release and why.
It seems likely the postal service will be disrupted. Members should bear in mind that a year ago when we discussed reform of this House all sides and parties became edgy at any suggestion that there might be interference with our futures, careers or the manner in which we are elected. These people feel their future is being taken away from them, that the arrangements they entered into with management have been broken and agreements have not been met.
I am not judging the rights or wrongs of the case. I have never seen an industrial dispute where there was not, to some extent, right on each side but this involves macho management which is making other threats as well. I hope there will not be industrial action because there should not be. Workers who decide to take industrial action do so only as a last resort. I hope they find a reason for not doing it but I recognise that they believe they have been badly treated. They always have to take the last action, and are subject to complaints. We should look at the issue from both sides.
Does the Leader share my concern about the resignation today of one of the SIPTU representatives on the board of the Dublin Airport Authority? This seems to raise two issues. First, the nature of the deal apparently made in Shannon where for the first time a State airport has moved to a point where we accept the argument made by Michael O'Leary and Ryanair that airports should pay airlines to use them. It also raises issues we foresaw when we debated the State Airports Bill about the relationship between the Dublin Airport Authority, which is effectively the successor to Aer Rianta, and the Shannon Airport Authority.
It is entirely inappropriate that there should have been virtually no consultation with the Dublin Airport Authority and little opportunity for it to discuss what is a very significant deal by any standards. It is a source of deep concern and a matter that should not be allowed pass without comment and inquiry.
With regard to Senator O'Toole's reference to Sinn Féin and the killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, it is a timely reminder to us that whatever its dealings with high-blown politics and political concepts, ultimately, when it comes to cutting a deal, Sinn Féin will always look after its own people first. We should bear this in mind.
That is correct.
I agree with Senator O'Toole in regard to the pending An Post strike set for next Wednesday. I appeal to all parties to come together to negotiate a settlement and to avoid industrial action. The point was made on RTE's "Morning Ireland" programme this morning that pensions increases have not been paid to postal workers. To be fair, they have a strong case and there will have to be negotiation. Senators will remember the major strike of 1979, within a few years of which the new bodies, An Post and Telecom Éireann, were established. No good will come of the current dispute unless negotiations take place and we should unite in calling on both parties to come together under the auspices of the Labour Relations Commission, which should intervene.
Second Stage of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2004 will be taken next week. Is it intended that all Stages of the Bill would be passed by the end of the session? It is important that the consultative forums for elected representatives be set up. This would help to deflect the type of negative publicity in regard to University College Hospital, Galway, which aired on "Morning Ireland" this morning without a rebuttal from the Western Health Board. I contacted the health board and requested it to respond speedily to any of the politically motivated allegations which make it to the airwaves before they are clarified.
If the consultative forums were established, public representatives would at least have an opportunity to raise such issues and obtain clarification before they come into the public domain. It was very demoralising for the excellent staff of UCHG to be embroiled in this morning's unsavoury publicity in regard to a patient who allegedly had to ring his wife in Tuam to get a drip reattached to his arm in a particularly isolated ward at UCHG. As a former chairman of the health board, I know how difficult it can be for staff to listen to such allegations when a matter is not immediately clarified. Public representatives should be able to clarify such matters through direct dialogue with the health board before they are broadcast.
I support the sentiments expressed by Senator O'Toole in regard to the possible release of the killers of Detective Garda McCabe, particularly given the manner in which this is being dealt with by the Taoiseach. It was extremely upsetting to witness Mrs. McCabe and members of her family on the airwaves expressing their disappointment and, I am sure, anger at the way in which this is being dealt with. This is particularly so in light of the commitments given to them by the Taoiseach and others that the killers would not be released early.
The way in which the Taoiseach has dealt with the McCabe family is disgraceful. The Taoiseach did not have the manners or courtesy to speak with Mrs. McCabe before this became public knowledge and she had to learn of it over the airwaves, which is very shoddy treatment of the widow of a garda who was killed in a brutal fashion. The matter should be dealt with as speedily as possible and this issue should not be a part of the current negotiations.
I raised the issue of domestic violence in the House on a number of occasions. In light of the many press releases which Women's Aid received this week due to the occasion of domestic violence international day, we need an urgent debate on domestic violence. It is a serious and growing issue in Ireland and internationally not only for women generally, but also for the elderly and, as noted this week, with regard to violence in the home against people with disabilities. An urgent debate is required.
The issue of the killers of Detective Garda McCabe has been continuous since 1998. It is correct to state that the Government took the view that this had nothing to do with the Good Friday Agreement, but the Supreme Court did not take that this view.
Will the Senator give way on a point of information?
Yes.
The Supreme Court was absolutely clear in giving the right to the Executive to determine when these people can be released.
I stated that yesterday. However, on the other hand the Supreme Court stated they were eligible for release under the Good Friday Agreement, which is the other part of the argument.
The court gave the power to the Executive.
There is a somewhat simplistic portrayal in the media of the degree or lack of contact over quite a long period with the families concerned. The impression given that there has been no contact by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform or others on his behalf is not fair.
I pressed during the summer for a debate on postal services because many issues in this regard ought to be debated, including ongoing industrial relations difficulties. We need a comprehensive debate on An Post. If the hook on which to hang this is to debate the annual report of An Post, that would be one way of doing it. It is high time a Minister came to the House to make a statement on the matter.
With regard to air services at Shannon, I understood that the whole point of the break-up of Aer Rianta was that there would be competition between airports, which seems to be happening.
One must always listen with respect to what Senator Mansergh says on these matters because he has been close to the events. If he says there has been contact with the family of Detective Garda McCabe, one has to put that into the balance. However, I clearly heard the widow of Detective Garda McCabe on the wireless yesterday saying she had received no contact. Who does one believe? If a woman in that position says this, I must take it into account, with the greatest respect to the Senator.
I know difficult decisions must be made and that people must lose out, which is desperately sad. Yesterday we heard from Senator Maurice Hayes with regard to the parallel case in Northern Ireland. However, one must consider the human management of the situation and my clear impression is that the Government did not handle this well. If one wants to take this kind of difficult decision, one must bring all the people with one, particularly those centrally involved. I cannot believe this has properly happened in this regard.
Judgment was arrived at on Wednesday last in the case of Ms Mary Kelly. She walked free from the court, although she received a two-year suspended sentence. It was an extraordinary case in that the political context was completely ruled out, Ms Kelly was not allowed to refer to Iraq and the evidence of the former Attorney General of the United States, Mr. Ramsey Clark, was not entertained. In addition, the clear precedent of the Trident Ploughshares anti-nuclear women protesters, who in a directly similar case were completely exonerated by a British jury, was not entertained. One does not question the competence of the court but the context raises some questions.
She should be locked up.
That is the Senator's view and he is entitled to express it. However, she should have been given an honour by the State for being one of the few who was prepared to stand up to the militaristic bullying of the United States.
Or for causing €20 million worth of damage to a US aircraft.
Order, please.
Perhaps the Leader would ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs to request from the United States and British Governments a statement on the humanitarian situation in Falluja. Some 210,000 refugees outside Falluja are not provided for. The International Red Cross has said that the treatment there is in contempt of human rights yet not a squeak is emerging because the news media have been completely sewn up. Simultaneously, if we are looking to the United Nations to help, our Government should issue a strong statement of support for that body. There are people committed to its destruction in the current American Government. In today's newspapers there are reports that a leading US Republican Senator, covertly assisted by President Bush, is attempting to seek the removal or resignation of the Secretary General of the United Nations, Kofi Annan. That is disgraceful and is a related element of American foreign policy.
Regarding a debate on Northern Ireland, the Leader was right yesterday when she said it is not appropriate at this time. We all know why she said that. We have had many debates on Northern Ireland in this Chamber over a number of years. Each time, we felt we were on the threshold of a breakthrough, which was not the case. Our dearest wish is that prior to the Christmas recess we might come to this Chamber and see the beginning of that final breakthrough. I do not believe there will ever be closure for the grief of those who lost loved ones. They will bring that grief with them to the grave. They are in a purgatory of suffering which unfortunately will continue. Given the public nature of their grief, each new development and story will activate it all over again.
Everyone here is being genuine. I have searched in my heart for years for words to help those innocent people who for no reason find their emotional lives wrecked and their loved ones gone for ever. I hope that when the next debate on Northern Ireland takes place in this Chamber we can deal with many of these issues. We cannot simply say there is closure and expect everyone to go along with that. We will have to help those people in some way. To achieve this, we will all find ourselves using an entirely new language.
I am not going to defend the Government or anyone else but I have always admired those involved in the peace process who kept trying when all efforts seemed useless and when we did not expect progress. We have made progress, but progress and closure are not the same.
I support the calls for a debate on An Post at the earliest opportunity and for a debate on Northern Ireland when it is deemed appropriate.
After next week, how many sitting days does the Leader envisage remaining in the current session? Other than those listed in the Order of Business, what other Bills are to be brought before the House prior to the recess?
Having been nominated to this House by the ICTU through the Communication Workers Union, I have a particular interest in An Post and ask for an urgent debate on this matter.
Regarding the proposed release of the murderers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe, the Government has to make a difficult and heart-rending decision. One would not envy those obliged to make such a decision. Debates are littered with principled stances taken by the Opposition but when faced in government with similar circumstances, it too has had to make hard choices. We should remember that.
I support Senator O'Toole in his request that the Leader find out who is making the demands for the release of the killers of Detective Garda McCabe. I agree with those who said that everyone has to bear pain in this situation. What Senator Maurice Hayes said yesterday about the pain of those families who lost members of the RUC was important but I was disappointed with the media reports on the debate which omitted what Senator Cummins said about the matter being the concern of all, including those on the Government side of the House. The killers were pardoned before the Good Friday Agreement whereas we now have a new group of people coming in after that Agreement. It must concern all of us that there will be further such groups.
Nobody is trying to stop progress. I listened closely to the wise words of Senator Ó Murchú. For numerous people on this island there will be no closure. As Senator Ó'Toole said, we need to know exactly who is making the demands for the release of the murderers so that if there is no closure this time, we can say that while demands were met on this occasion, another demand is now being made.
With regard to Senator Henry's comments, a book published a number of years ago listed by name every person killed in Northern Ireland.
Lost Lives.
It was a remarkable volume of stories about innocent people who lost their lives. Their mothers and fathers, sons and daughters are all across Northern Ireland. It is very difficult for many people in the Republic to understand these people's pain, and difficult for them to understand our hurt at the notion that our unarmed Garda force might not be thought special and that gardaí shot down, murdered in cold blood, would not be respected, revered and considered as separate. We may all need to examine the depths of our souls and consider the need for progress, as Senator Ó Murchú said, but not for forgiveness or closure. Whatever happens over the next couple of weeks, that is the context in which we will judge the actions of the Government, Garda McCabe's widow and the families involved.
Regarding the release of the murderers of Detective Garda McCabe, Sinn Féin is obviously driving the agenda. There is no question of it being anyone else. I agree with Senator O'Toole than an explanation should be given by Sinn Féin especially as the killers denied at the time that they were members of the IRA or Sinn Féin, or acting on their behalf.
What is the status of the other two killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe who remain on the run since 1996? How are they going to be treated? Will these murderers also be granted an amnesty? The public and the Oireachtas need to know the answers to those questions. We should not be dictated to by paramilitaries or by parties which are new converts to democracy in this country.
The Leader of the Opposition, Senator Brian Hayes, asked about the Social Welfare Bill. It will be debated in this House on 15 and 16 December. No doubt all the Senator's questions will then be answered. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs did very well in his new brief, achieving a fine range of finances for social welfare.
Senator Brian Hayes also asked about the NCT. The debate in this House on that matter was excellent. The Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Deputy Callely, said that the PricewaterhouseCoopers report would be published at the end of November and we will find out why this has not happened.
Senator O'Toole referred to speculation regarding the release of those convicted of the killing of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe. There is no doubt in anybody's mind who has made the demand for their release, but Senator O'Toole asked about the reasons. I undertook to speak to the Taoiseach yesterday, which I did. I expressed clearly the concerns of Members who spoke, and those who did not, on the matter. I had quite an intense conversation with him about it. As I said yesterday, I have no doubt he finds the whole thing as painful and as draining as we find it.
I fully accept that.
I am aware of that. There have been little gems of wisdom from all who have spoken. We are in this together. It is a huge, formative process. It is a very difficult situation and there is no way it can be clarified or that a full debate can be arranged. That will not help the matter, although I am not saying the Senator asked for that. In fact, I think it would only heighten the pain of Mrs. Ann McCabe. I can understand how she——
It would be nice to hear Sinn Féin say it will not do the deal until these killers get out. I would like that to be on the record.
We all feel the same way about it.
Senator O'Toole also raised the An Post strike. Over the years I have found there are two sides to every strike, which the Senator said. A strike is never one-sided. There are two groups of people involved and for anyone to seek to portray one side as the goodies and the other as the badies is extreme and incorrect. However, we should have a debate and I will endeavour to squeeze one in somewhere.
Senator McDowell raised the McCabe murder as well. He also spoke about Mr. McLoughlin, the SIPTU member. Mr. McLoughlin made a very reasoned case but he did not get time to discuss the issue. When he went back to the acting chief executive, he was told the matter had been dealt with, which made a mockery of his membership. Although the Bill has been passed, the separation of the airports is not due to happen until next April, which the Minister told us at the time. It was only this morning that we heard the terms of the deal when Mr. McLoughlin spoke on radio. I do not know if that is the best way for us to hear how the particular airline — the offer is open to any new airline — paid 50 cent and got back €1.50. It sounds like an amazing deal. I do not know how the airport will manage that economically and show it is a good deal. Be that as it may, that is what it was. We are indebted to Mr. McLoughlin because he told us what it was about and how it would work. It is amazing economics for one to pay 50 cent and to get back €1.50.
Senator Leyden referred to An Post. We remember the long strike in 1979, so we will endeavour to hold a debate. He also asked whether the Health Bill would be completed this term. Second Stage will be taken next Friday while Committee Stage will be taken the following week with Report Stage taken a day or two later. Senator Leyden asked about the consultative forum which I expect the Minister will tell us about when she introduces the Bill.
Senator Terry spoke about Detective Garda McCabe and about domestic violence and the issues which have come out in the past ten days in that regard. Senator Mansergh called for the Minister to come in to the House to discuss the postal service. He also said competition at airports was required and that it seemed to be coming about. Senator Norris said he heard Mrs. McCabe say she had not heard from the Government but there has been ongoing discussion with the family. I think Mrs. McCabe meant she had not heard within the past two to three days. Senator Norris also asked about Mary Kelly who got a suspended sentence. Senator Dooley has strong views on that matter.
I expressed them.
He did not express them fully but shouted them.
He kind of grunted.
I heard him quite clearly. He did not grunt.
Senator Norris referred to the silence fromFalluja and the humanitarian needs there. Senator Ó Murchú spoke about the public nature of people's grief and expressed admiration for all those in the peace process. Progress and closure are not synonymous. Apart from Northern Ireland, when matters affect people, there is never closure. One would wish one could turn a key and close a box but it is not possible.
Senator Coghlan agreed with Senator Brian Hayes and asked about the North. We are due to sit four days the week after next but we are endeavouring not to sit on the Friday unless something is sprung on us or something takes longer than we thought to debate. That is our plan. No Bill will be debated which has not been published.
Senator Hanafin called for a debate on An Post and declared his interest. He was correct to tell us he was nominated by it. I will try to see if we can fit in a debate even if it means an earlier start some day. Senator Henry asked who was making the demands on the Government. It is plain who is making the demands but behind that, I suppose there are many other layers of activity.
Senator Cox spoke with feeling about all those killed in Northern Ireland and referred to the compendium which details each person killed there. Behind each person, there is a story and an extended family and friends whose lives will never be the same again. Senator Cummins referred to the status of the other two killers of Detective Garda McCabe who went on the run. I do not know where they are or what they are doing, but I will endeavour to find out.
Order of Business agreed to.