The Order of Business is No. 1, statements on privacy and defamation, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude not later than 1.30 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the end of statements; No. 2, Parental Leave (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Committee Stage, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to conclude not later than 5 p.m.; and No. 19, motion No. 16, to be taken between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. There will be a sos between 1.30 p.m. and 2.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
Late in the previous Dáil the original Disability Bill was withdrawn by the Government on the basis that substantive negotiations would take place between those who were campaigning for legislation with teeth and a rights-based approach and that the Government would deal one to one with these people to produce a Bill that would be satisfactory to all concerned. However, it has emerged following last night's meeting and the significant campaign that has been mounted against the current Bill that there are problems. Will the Government genuinely sit down one to one with the campaigners on this important Bill to work out a solution with which everyone will be satisfied? The Bill is on Second Stage in the other House and will shortly be sent to committee. The Government said it will consider amendments on Committee Stage but the Bill is important. It has been promised for seven years and I do not want it to become a party political football. It is important that the Government should sit down with the campaigners to work out a solution that has all our support. I ask the Government to consider that in advance of Committee Stage in the other House.
It is reported that Prime Minister Blair will formally apologise to the Conlon family in the House of Commons today for the appalling miscarriage of justice involving those known as the Guildford Four. We all welcome that and the campaign that has been run in Britain and Ireland in recent months by the Conlon family, supported by the SDLP and its leader, Mr. Mark Durkan. The apology is long overdue. Not only should it be given to those directly involved in Guildford, but it should also be given to those involved in all the miscarriages of justice on both islands over the past 20 years given the circumstances that we faced. It is a welcome development and I particularly congratulate the SDLP on its role in ensuring this public apology is made today.
On the Northern issue, in recent times I raised the importance of developing the east-west aspect of the Good Friday Agreement. I have said in a number of places on numerous occasions that I feel we can create progress and a new political impetus from community, professional and economic involvement across the two islands. I felt there was nothing happening in this regard. However, I stand corrected because I have received an extraordinarily interesting letter from Scoil Eoin, Kilbarrack, which explains that it and a number of schools on both islands are involved in a most positive, progressive and encouraging east-west programme through which people talk to each other, explain their communities to each other, meet each other, take joint action on all aspects of community affairs and are publishing a magazine and developing a website. This is the way forward. I spoke to the organising teacher, Mr. Patrick O'Donovan, and this project could grow into something big. We should take example from it and do the same at different levels.
I would welcome a discussion on the east-west aspect of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I have asked for previously. I believe this initiative is something that could be built on. It is time to resuscitate groups like Anglo-Irish Encounter and, perhaps, to give a different role to the British-Irish Interparliamentary Body in order to make progress. We should involve groups in society in moving matters forward and from this perhaps grow a political impetus.
I was moved last night to reread a document from over 250 years ago, A Modest Proposal, by Dean Swift, in light of what Mr. Myers said in his newspaper article yesterday. It is strange how biting satire and sarcasm written well will last for over 270 years and make an impact in a way that Mr. Myers never could hope to do in terms of approach and ability. I will read one paragraph from Dean Swift's biting sarcastic vision of how we might deal with the troublesome, unnecessary children in our community. He stated:
I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled: and I make no doubt that it will serve equally well in a fricassee or a ragout.
This is mind-churning and in context shows how a point can be made to extremes that will last over 270 years. I wish Mr. Myers could learn from it.
I bring to the notice of the House the wise words of a very experienced woman who stopped me in Dublin this morning and said: "When I think of Mr. Myers and think that he was created by two parents and brought up by two parents, give me one any time."
I am sorry I was not here yesterday to say that I fully share the views so well expressed again this morning by Senator O'Toole. I add one comment. Great satirical writing that lasts is, inevitably, writing that is a challenge to the powerful. What makes it great writing is that it is well written and challenges the established and powerful. To write well to challenge the least powerful and to humiliate the powerless is an abuse of a talent somebody has the good fortune to have.
On the question of what people write, I wish to quote some things that have been written. If somebody in this House said "the IRA is throwing down a gauntlet to the Irish establishment" or that "Bertie Ahern has probably pushed the process over the edge by throwing his lot in with the Northern Special Branch and the British military establishment", most of us would be outraged. When that is written by a member of the group of political writers in this House, working for a public sector broadcaster, I take great exception to it. It is the rule of this House that I may not name the individual. However, if anybody wants to know where this was written, I will tell them afterwards. I will not abuse the House. Neither will I abuse my position the way somebody here through public service broadcasting abuses his position and simply says it is his personal opinion.
Those personal opinions are inseparable from the job that person does as a political journalist and are profoundly wrong. I am not part of any political establishment and neither is anybody else here. We are elected by the people of Ireland. When one flies in the face of the Oireachtas, one flies in the face not of the political establishment, but of the people. Therefore, for political journalists who work in this House to issue such rantings is a disgrace to both politics and journalism. It must stop.
The city in which I live is currently a tip.
Name and shame.
It has been overwhelmed gradually by rubbish which is now being diligently collected by the city council which then employs people to search through it to find some address so that it can prosecute somebody. Given that local authorities have managed not to notice hundreds of thousands of tonnes of material being dumped illegally, the diligence is, perhaps, admirable. However, the current system of domestic waste disposal is running into increasing public resistance.
Around the peripheries of Cork city there is a gradually developing necklace of black bags dumped indiscriminately. I gather the same is true of many of the rural areas on the periphery of Dublin. What is not being dumped is being burned. I invite people to read the Government's website on the Race Against Waste to see the damage caused by backyard burning. Approximately 90% of the dioxins in the atmosphere are a consequence of backyard burning. To be honest, the current strategy is not working. It is not working because it does not have political assent and is being imposed by dictatorial city managers who are not accountable to anybody. If we want to deal with waste, we must re-engage the public. The current situation in which our cities are being turned into dumps——
Does Senator Ryan want a debate on the matter?
I want a debate on the issue of domestic waste and, incidentally, the role of Repak in that regard. I have significant questions to ask about Repak.
The apology the British Government will issue today to the family ofGiuseppe Conlon and, hopefully, Annie Maguire is welcome. Giuseppe and Gerry Conlon were both innocent and imprisoned. Giuseppe Conlon was a sick man and died in prison. Annie Maguire was innocent, but her life and that of her family was wrecked. These are but a few cases of the many miscarriages of justice perpetrated by the British justice system against Irish people.
We owe a debt of gratitude to the campaigners who through the years against all the odds continued to seek justice for people who were helpless and vulnerable. Credit is due to people like the solicitor Gareth Pierce and Niall Andrews and others who were consistent. If we are to show our gratitude for the work they have done, we must be ever on the alert in the future. We must be wary of trial by silence.
It is important we also protect and uphold the right of due process. I said previously that I believe friendship has grown and strengthened between Ireland and Britain as a result of the peace process. Some obstacles still exist. We must ensure there is closure on the many other cases, including that of the Guildford Four. People are campaigning at the moment on other outstanding miscarriage of justice cases and it is important that we would also become proactive on their behalf. At the end of the day the only hope we have is that we are able to bring closure to the past and that we would have hope for the future.
I am still hopeful that in the very near future all parties and groups can once again sit around the table and continue the good work that has been done. It is very easy at present to forget the progress we have made but nobody wants to go back to the type of life we had on this island ten years ago, to the fear, suspicion, lack of hope and helplessness that existed politically, particularly in the North of Ireland. We will need the same leadership, commitment, patience and persistence that existed heretofore to bring this process to a closure.
I support my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes. The Disability Bill was going through both Houses prior to the last election three years ago. It was withdrawn at the time due to concerns expressed by people involved in the disability sector. Many of us considered that all that was behind us. However, a large protest group convened a meeting last night in the RDS because of people's great concern regarding the new Disability Bill. It is not right to reassure them on the basis that their concerns will be teased out on Committee Stage. We need to look seriously at the Bill and see how it can be made compatible with the requirements of those involved in the disability sector. Satisfaction has been expressed at the type of funding that has been programmed for the next few years but concerns exist regarding specific elements of the Bill.
Problems exist with refuse collection in Cork. Many of us are concerned about the privatisation of services and the cost of refuse collection. A person who pays tax gets a tax credit for payment of a refuse collection charge, up to a maximum of €195 at the standard rate of 20%. However, a pensioner recently pointed out to me how unfair the system is, as he does not get any tax credit or allowance. People now pay between €400 and €500 per year in refuse disposal charges. The sum of €400 per year works out at €8 per week, which is unjust. In the past we were hailed as innovative as we introduced concessions for telephone and electricity charges. It is now time for the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to examine this area, especially in regard to old age pensioners, to see if an allowance or subvention could be provided in regard to refuse collection. It is becoming more and more prohibitive for pensioners and others who cannot afford it to pay that type of charge.
I call on the Leader to provide time for a debate on Iraq at the earliest opportunity, in light of the results of the recent election. The turnout and participation by the electorate was very high against all the odds, intimidation and threat. In that context I am reminded of a letter that appeared on the letters page of one newspaper which quoted from The New York Times in 1967. Reference was made to a high turnout, difficulties of participation and the fine result. That 1967 article referred to South Vietnam. While there has been a major change and a significant move forward in Iraq there are fraught times ahead and we should debate the matter in the House.
I find myself in the happy position of wanting to agree with two of my colleagues on the Fianna Fáil benches. First, I agree with Senator Ó Murchú, although normally I deprecate the idea of apologies. We have had apologies for the famine and the flood, which are completely irrelevant tripe. However, on this occasion people, some of whom are still alive, suffered a massive injustice so the apology actually has meaning. Mrs. Annie Maguire will be in the lobby of the House of Commons today when this apology is received, which is to be very much welcomed.
It is also important that we continue to monitor the situation in Northern Ireland. I listened last night to Vincent Browne's radio programme. He asked Danny Morrison a very direct, specific and clear question — if he believed that the Northern Bank raid was a crime. The answer is very instructive. He said it depended on who did it. As long as we have this kind of morality and definition of criminality, we are in very serious trouble. That appears to me not to be confined to Mr. Morrison, but to be endemic throughout Sinn Féin. It is a crime if other people did it but it is not a crime if its members did it. That is what vitiated the McCabe trial.
I also agree with Senator Hanafin. He made an extremely good point which is similar to one I wish to make. We should have a debate on the situation in the Middle East, encompassing Israel and Iraq. The real criteria is the welfare and well-being of the people in the Middle East. If that means people like me are proved to have been wrong in certain emphases, what does it matter? The main thing is the welfare of these people. The point Senator Hanafin made was underlined by one of the senior United Nations observers in Iraq at the time of the murder of Mr. de Mello, who said in an article in the International Herald Tribune that elections under hostile occupations should be forbidden since they have no other purpose than to further entrench the occupier’s interests. The results are not yet in from the election.
Many speakers are offering. Is Senator Norris seeking a debate on this matter?
Can I raise one final point? I heard the Leader of the House on the radio this morning. She performed extremely well. She called for clear and explicit sex education. We should have a debate on that. I was in Waterford a week ago and three wonderful and courageous women from Cork spoke on the issue of sexuality. All three of them had lesbian daughters. One in particular said that her child was doing extremely well until just prior to the intermediate certificate and then everything went disastrously wrong. Her daughter eventually recovered. She was 19 when she told her mother that she was gay although she first realised it when she was 12. The school provided nothing for that child or her parents. The mother attacked the system and asked where was the help from society when they needed it.
The briefing on the partnership Bill will take place between 3.30 p.m. and 4.30 p.m. in the audio-visual room. I mention that for the information of Members because apparently there was a mistake in one of the e-mails that went around.
Hurry, hurry, tickets for sale.
Yes, there are tickets for sale.
I am concerned at the escalating costs of waste water treatment schemes. Will the Leader invite the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to the House to discuss deregulation of the cap on grants for small group water schemes, which at present is capped at 85%? Members of small schemes experience great hardship in funding their schemes, especially where old age pensioners form a significant proportion of the applicants. Where there are schemes with fewer than 30 members the 15% cost can mean an extra €2,000 or €3,000 for applicants. The Minister should consider increasing the cap on the grant scheme for small schemes.
On the relaxation of the retail planning guidelines announced by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, will the Leader seek to clarify if it is the intention that one megastore would be built in each integrated area plan area or is it possible that we could have clusters of them in such designated areas and-or gateway towns?
Specifically in regard to Ballymun, can she clarify if there will be one store or a number of them in excess of the retail warehouse cap? If so, what will be the consequences of such developments in terms of traffic, land use and impact on town centres? I seek a debate on this matter.
Will the Leader invite the Minister for Transport to the House for a debate on road safety? When we speak of road safety, motorists' speed comes to mind but other road users also have to take into consideration that they are not the only ones on the road. I refer to joggers in particular. In their case, the sleeves of the tops they wear often fall down over their armbands, thereby preventing them from being seen. It should be mandatory for people to wear reflective vests. There is also evidence to suggest that many people are buying cars at auctions and putting them on the road without tax or insurance, begging the question as to whether they are roadworthy. These are serious questions about which we should have an early debate.
I was delighted to hear Senator Glynn refer to road safety, a topic I have raised on many occasions. Sometimes one believes one is not heard or listened to in this House. One of the topics which I raised with a Minister in this House, and about which I wrote an article in The Irish Times some months ago, is the prevention of road accidents by investing in installing speed cameras around the country for safety purposes. I had felt I was not being listened to until I picked up the newspaper this morning to discover that a speed camera blitz is imminent and thousands of speed cameras are to be installed.
I was pleased to read this because I thought someone was listening to me but, unfortunately, when I read the article further I discovered that the Minister referred to as implementing this scheme is the Minister for Transport in Britain.
He was listening to the Senator.
I hope he was listening to me. The reason I raise the issue is that the number of deaths on our roads is an issue for which we have a responsibility. We know we can do something about it, that speed cameras are good value for money, that we can invest in such a system and that we must argue very strongly for it. I am delighted to see that the British authorities have decided to do this although I had hoped we could have led the way instead.
In regard to concept of prevention being better than cure, will the Leader bring to the attention of the Tánaiste and Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, the early warning system which has been launched in Britain? The system is attached to the cots of premature babies and detects their distress rather than heart-stoppage. The difference is that up to now when the heart stopped beating the alarm went off, whereas the alarm now detects when the child is in distress and one can take action ahead of time. When I saw the figures for cystic fibrosis in the Republic of Ireland as compared to those on Northern Ireland I realised we could do something about many diseases by investing in the correct preventive solutions rather than attempting to cure them after the fact.
Some time ago I read that in China a doctor is not paid on the number of visits on which he or she attends to a patient but rather on the number of days the patient is well and does not have to visit. That seems to me to be the ideal answer — one pays the doctor for keeping the patient well rather than for attending to the patient.
I concur with the comments made by Senators Quinn and Glynn in regard to road safety, which arises regularly.
Will the Leader consider the extreme but useful practice employed by the Knesset in Israel whereby at the beginning of business each day the names of those killed in road accidents are read out in memoriam by the speaker? It is an acknowledgement of sorts which focuses people’s minds on the reality.
I support the comments made on both sides of the House in regard to the acknowledgement by the British Government of the apology to Mrs. Annie Maguire and Giuseppe Conlon. To take up Senator Ó Murchú's theme, this is a momentous event when one considers the fraught relations between this country and Britain over many hundreds of years. It follows the apology relating to the Famine from Tony Blair some years ago and is made by a Government rather than an individual.
A number of courageous people have not been mentioned and should be referred to. Mr. Chris Mullin is the crusading journalist who wrote the book on the Guildford Four case which opened this debate. He later went on to become an MP and a Minister in the Blair Government. Mr. Alistair Logan is the solicitor who represented those involved in the Guildford Four case and travelled repeatedly to this country to attend and speak at public meetings. He is now forgotten in a sense because events have moved on. I also refer to the crusading QC, Michael Mansfield, who represented many Irish people when it was not popular to do so.
I had only been a Member of this House for a number of months when I and a number of other parliamentarians attended the Birmingham Six appeal hearing in the Old Bailey, which was presided over by Lord Lane, the then British Chief Justice. It was a very chilling experience to hear that appeal being turned down. Ironically, one of the three sitting judges — there was no jury — was a Mr. Justice O'Connor whose Irish name obviously had no influence on the outrageous conclusion reached at that time. I acknowledge those people — all of whom are English — and it is a tremendous tribute to them that they made their case against the mood of the day.
I lived in England at the time Mrs. Maguire and her family were arrested. The headline in the London Evening Standard following their arrest was “Aunt Annie’s Bomb Factory”. When they were arrested, one of the police constables could not understand why the children had English accents given that they were Irish. The answer was that they had been born and reared in England. Ironically, Mrs. Maguire was a paid-up and active member of the Conservative Party. We should remember these things at this time. This is a momentous day and at least Giuseppe Conlon can now rest in peace.
This morning Senators will have received from the Minister for Education and Science a comprehensive list of appointments she has made at national level. Parents, school management boards and principals can have access to those people and resources in respect of special educational needs. However, for this to be fully effective it is important that, in tandem with the initiative, the Minister reviews the Department's current strategy which militates against rural national schools. Many schools have in recent months received notification from the Department that they are to lose resource teachers or special needs assistants.
While there is a very fine plan for access and assessment of needs, assessing people without follow-up implementation is of very little value. In that context, will the Leader ask the Minister for Education and Science to review the plan which militates against rural national schools and the appointment of personnel in order to provide facilities as they were heretofore, although patchy, to children with special needs in national schools in rural Ireland?
I join with other speakers in requests for a debate on waste management. My native city is not a tip and I do not support that contention. The vast majority of people in Cork support and comply with the waste management strategy and are law abiding. There are a few dissenters but the onus on us is to support the democratically-elected councils and managers. To suggest that we have dictatorial managers is unfair and untrue. Managers have a difficult job and such comments are unhelpful to people who are trying to comply with and support the wishes of an elected council such as Cork City Council.
There will always be difficulties in the area of waste management. I welcome a debate on the issue as it would give the House an opportunity to examine the finer points of such a strategy. Equally, I join with other speakers in welcoming the apology today by the British Prime Minister. However, we should not forget that the real perpetrators of the crimes of which those innocent people were wrongly accused were known to the Provisional IRA whose members happily allowed them to serve long periods in jail.
Senators
Hear, hear.
I wish to put a housekeeping question to the Leader. Several committees of the Houses sit this week. Of these, the Committees on Procedure and Privileges, Agriculture and Food and Broadcasting and Parliamentary Information will sit in private. I do not understand why any committee must sit in private.
Senator Ross, the Committee on Procedure and Privileges always sits in private.
I am asking why.
That has always been the case.
That is not a good reason.
It is because it will be discussing Senator Ross.
There is no provision in Standing Orders to allow visitors to attend the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I am well aware of that.
The Senator can propose changes to the Standing Order but there is a procedure to go through.
I am aware of all that but why must these committees sit in private? I know Senator O'Toole likes private sittings because he then does not have to tell us anything that goes on.
I am protecting the Senator from the worst excesses.
What secrets are behind these closed doors that the public must not know about? We are entitled to an answer.
We cannot tell the Senator.
They are secret.
I add my voice to those who request a debate on the waste collection issue. It is remiss of the House not to acknowledge the crisis in waste management. Waste management strategies of various local authorities have been given an added bump by the Government. The former Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, took the decision-making ability to set waste disposal charges from elected members of local authorities. The role of local government was depleted while adding a bureaucratic layer of dictatorship that decided the price of refuse collection, with a like it or lump it attitude. The same local authorities have failed miserably in providing alternate methods of recycling. I would welcome a debate on this topic.
Senator Brian Hayes, the Leader of the Opposition, spoke about the previous Disability Bill, withdrawn at the end of the last Dáil session. A campaign has started regarding the new Disability Bill. He correctly stated that it should not become a party political issue. Today, I read a report that former Senator, Maurice Manning, is the head of a body that has started a public debate on the issue. The Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Fahey, who is responsible for the Bill, stated he would consider any submissions. Meetings with interested parties were undertaken when the Bill was being fashioned. While it may need further refinement, I am sure the Government is keen to speak to anyone wishing to put forward a case on the Bill. Fundamental differences may be beginning to emerge. The Government laid out its stall with various statements last October when it presented the Bill. However, there is room for further consultation.
Senator Brian Hayes also welcomed Prime Minister Tony Blair's forthcoming formal apology and hoped that Annie Maguire will be included in it. He also welcomed, as do I, the input of the SDLP in the matter. It was one of those cases it took up and stayed with throughout the years.
Senator O'Toole has constantly spoken about the need for the east-west dimension to be highlighted in the peace process . He also referred to Scoil Eoin in Kilbarrack which has made out an excellent agenda for work with other schools along these lines. There are a large number of activities going on that we do not know about but are indicative of what ordinary people are endeavouring to do. There must be some way this can be highlighted to get over the current impasse and get the process back on an even keel. Work in this area is also being done by local authorities and others. The Senator's remarks about Dean Swift were apt. A proper satirist uses extreme examples so that one knows he or she does not mean it but instead one is taken by the language. This was different from yesterday's article in The Irish Times. No doubt there will be more anon about that.
Senator Ryan stated that great satirical writing is normally directed against the powerful in society. Yesterday's column in The Irish Times was not. He referred to an article written by a political journalist in the Houses but I have not read the article. The Senator referred to the domestic refuse collection in Cork city being in disarray resulting in the city becoming a tip. A debate has begun about refuse collection. I believe the system of waste collection should be more uniform. In Westmeath, we have a sensible system where one pays each time one puts a bin out for collection. It seems to be the most sensible system as it caters for small families who may not need to put a bin out very often. I agree we should debate waste management with the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Senator Ó Murchú welcomed the forthcoming apology to the Conlon family. A debt of gratitude is owed to campaigners, such as Gareth Pierce and Niall Andrews, for advocating the right of due process. However, many other outstanding cases remain. The Senator hoped this would lead to all parties and groups coming together again but it will require patience and perseverance. I share the Senator's admiration when one thinks of the patience and the perseverance of the people representing these groups displayed in the pursuit of their cases.
Senator Finucane supported Senator Brian Hayes's comments on the Disability Bill. However, we cannot have a debate on this as it is still before the Lower House. He also perceived the refuse collection system to be unjust. If there were a more equitable nationwide system, there would be greater regard for it.
Senator Hanafin called for a debate on Iraq which Senator Bradford raised yesterday. I commented then that the results of the election have not yet been declared. It would be a more informed debate were we to have the results.
Senator Norris agreed with Senator Ó Murchú and spoke about the definition of criminality. He called for a debate on both Israel and Iraq. I agree we should debate these matters when the time is right, hopefully by next week when the results will be known.
Senator Brennan raised the issue of caps on funding for group water schemes and asked that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government inform the House about the available grants for the schemes.
Senator Coghlan inquired about the relaxation of planning guidelines regarding IKEA and asked whether there would be clusters of stores in every gateway town. We will endeavour to have the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government attend the House to answer these questions.
Senator Glynn called for a debate on road safety and motor tax and insurance, matters which were raised yesterday by Senator Moylan. The Driver Testing and Standards Authority Bill is on Second Stage in the Dáil and it will soon be before this House. It will cover the debate being sought.
Senator Quinn spoke of how authorities in the UK are investing in more speed cameras. He also brought to our attention an early warning system for premature births that may later lead, sadly, to cot deaths. He also claimed that doctors should be paid for keeping patients well. I agree but much of keeping well is due to the individual and how he or she copes with ill health. Considering the difficulties with medical people, I do not know if they would take kindly to his proposals.
Senator Mooney noted that the Knesset reads out daily the names of people killed in traffic accidents. He also mentioned the matter of apologies to the Conlon family and we must also remember the courageous people who have lobbied and worked hard on their behalf over the years, including Chris Mullin, Alistair Logan, Michael Mansfield and many other names we would know of from listening to the radio and reading their articles. Those who took up such causes were unsupported at the time yet what they said has all been proved correct since then.
We all received the document mentioned by Senator Ulick Burke. It was very interesting and we all turned to see what was being made available to our own counties. He noted that the special educational needs system, because of the nature of the strategy, currently discriminates against rural national schools and that this should be addressed.
Senator Minihan called for a debate on waste management, which we should have. He too welcomed the apologies to be made to the Conlon family and I hope to Annie Maguire's family. Senator Ross queried the system of committees sitting in private and he has a point. The Leas-Chathaoirleach correctly informed him that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges always sat in private, but he wants to know why.
And the other committees.
Yes. I do not believe what Senator Ross said about Senator O'Toole.
I thank the Leader.
The Leader has not the experience of the lack of information from the Senator. The information all comes from the other side of the House. I hope Senator O'Toole tells the Leader the same thing.
We could discuss the matter of certain committee meetings being open, which Senator Ross is keen on.
They could be opened up to the public and could be on CCTV.
We could have people queueing up in large numbers.
Senator McCarthy asked for a debate on waste management and criticised the bureaucratic layer which has developed because county managers rather than elected representatives now have responsibility for both the pricing and arrangements for waste disposal. While that is true, I and many others found that the elected representatives were not taking the hard decisions in many cases. I have no brief to speak for county managers but that was how the situation came about.
Order of Business agreed to.