I welcome the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Martin Mansergh, to the House. He is well used to it.
Abbey Theatre: Statements.
The Abbey Theatre is a vital national cultural institution. Historically, it was a flagship of the cultural revival, which preceded independence. After independence, it was the first cultural institution to be in receipt of a State subsidy. It staged then and since Irish plays of world stature, other plays of great distinction and significance, as well as some classics of world theatre. It helped in the 20th century to create an outstanding literary reputation for Ireland that it did not previously have.
There is an important, if subtle, distinction between a national theatre and nationalist theatre. Synge and O'Casey wrote for a national, rather than a nationalist, theatre. The Abbey has been a place where many of the best dramatists, players and producers from every tradition and outlook have come together with pride in a common cause.
The difficulties of running a national theatre, then and now, in an Irish context are not to be underestimated. From time to time, they been aired in the press. A former Senator under the Free State, W.B. Yeats, expressed it in verse:
When we are high and airy hundreds say
That if we hold that flight they'll leave the place,
While those same hundreds mock another day
Because we have made our art of common things.
I welcome the interest shown in the future of the Abbey by many Senators, including Senators Coghlan and Norris. Senator Norris wrote to me regretting that he cannot be here for this debate; we had some banter about it on the Order of Business in March 2007.
Growing up, I can still remember an older generation lamenting the physical absence of the theatre from Dublin over a 15-year period after the 1951 fire. Seán Lemass, when laying the foundation stone of the new theatre in 1963, paid tribute to O'Casey's plays for doing "a great deal to moderate animosities and to enable people to live and laugh together after the Civil War", and to Yeats as "a man of high and lasting patriotism", adding that the same could be said of Lady Gregory and Edward Martyn.
The Abbey Theatre in its second building has served the country and this city well for what will be near on 50 years. It has within limits been adapted and refurbished over the years, with the enlarged first floor bar service jutting out over Marlborough Street, and the new seating. I was there on Tuesday night as a guest with my wife at the premiere of Brian Friel's adaptation of Chekhov's "Three Sisters", including, I suspect, the addition of some humorous touches not in the original. Over the years the Abbey Theatre has staged the works of many important contemporary dramatists such as Brian Friel as well as maintaining and reinterpreting the Irish classic repertoire. Nothing I have said should detract from the excellence of other theatrical contributions and traditions in this city and indeed in this country, but it is the needs, role, and responsibilities of the Abbey Theatre we are discussing today.
Physically, the Abbey Theatre building is not ideal by today's standards, with limited facilities backstage and below stage, inadequate air conditioning and a fairly cramped foyer space. There has been a consensus for a number of years that a new building is needed, and the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Martin Cullen, has a keen interest in advancing the project, as did his predecessor, Deputy John O'Donoghue. While policy is determined by the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy Martin Cullen, for whom I am deputising, the tendering and construction are supervised by the Office of Public Works in collaboration with the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism.
In 2006, the Government decided to procure a design for the new Abbey Theatre at a site in George's Dock by way of an international design competition, IDC, to be managed by the OPW. Based on the outcome of the IDC, the new theatre for the Abbey is to be procured by way of a public private partnership, PPP, project on a build, finance and maintain basis. This site was chosen following an extensive exercise conducted by the Office of Public Works which involved the examination of a number of options, and the project is being progressed on the basis solely of the George's Dock site.
Among the options reviewed were rebuilding at the current site, with acquisition of a number of adjacent properties down to the river; access from O'Connell Street to the back of the old Carlton cinema site; a site on Parnell Square; and a site across the river in the south docks area. In most cases, practical reasons, including the likelihood of prolonged delay, ruled out the other alternatives. The choice of location is a question that is now settled.
The site at George's Dock was provided by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. An international design competition was one of the conditions of the offer of the site by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. Arising from the Government decision, an inter-agency steering committee was set up to oversee the project. The committee is chaired by the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and comprises representatives of the National Development Finance Agency, the Office of Public Works, the Abbey Theatre and the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. A project team, chaired by the Office of Public Works and comprising representatives of the same agencies as the steering group, has also been established and is overseeing the arrangements for holding the international design competition and advancing the PPP process.
The Office of Public Works has asked the Royal Institute of the Architects of Ireland to organise the competition. The competition regulations are nearing finalisation. The technical documentation for the competition must be very carefully specified, in particular the detailed accommodation brief for the new theatre. Work on that is nearing completion. A jury for the international design competition was appointed late last year. The jury has representatives from the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism, the Office of Public Works, the Dublin Docklands Development Authority, the Arts Council and the Abbey Theatre. It also features international figures in the architectural and theatre worlds. It is expected that the design competition will be launched before the end of 2008. The IDC will be carried out in two phases. Phase 1 involves seeking expressions of interest from architect-led design teams, from which a maximum of 15 teams will be required to submit designs in phase 2 of the competition. The winning design will be selected by the jury.
Technical, legal, insurance and financial advisers have been appointed to guide and advise the inter-agency teams in the procurement of this epoch-making and crucial project. A theatre consultant and an acoustic consultant have also been appointed. Furthermore, a process auditor is in place in accordance with Department of Finance guidelines.
The project is complex and there are myriad factors to address in making progress on it. It remains a priority for the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism and the Government in the programme for Government and in the national development plan. The same teams progressed the National Concert Hall PPP to competition initiation stage last week, and those resources will now be used to advance the Abbey Theatre PPP. When the winning design has been chosen, the National Development Finance Agency, in conjunction with the OPW, will oversee the PPP procurement process in accordance with PPP guidelines.
Both the Minister, Deputy Cullen, and I are confident that when the international design competition is complete in some years' time, we will have a world class design for a new iconic landmark building for the city, and the new quayside theatre will be a dynamic structure reflecting Dublin's growing reputation as a global capital of culture and creativity. It will be readily accessible by public transport — the future Luas line will run beside it — and there is also a footbridge across the river.
As Senators will have seen from this morning's newspapers, a Dublin docklands expansion plan was launched yesterday and there is no doubt that cultural facilities ought to be part of that vast new area of the city. At the same time it is very accessible from the existing city centre and is a fine location which I visited yesterday.
With the Minister, Deputy Cullen, I look forward to a new national theatre building that makes a bold and visionary statement about modern Ireland while at the same time acknowledging the historic significance of the Abbey Theatre to Irish life over more than a century. The Abbey will continue to be a national cultural institution that acts as a magnet to draw our citizens and visitors alike towards enjoying the inspiring drama and creativity our country and heritage has to offer.
I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for his contribution on this important topic. I am struck by the fact that we are discussing something that is of enormous value to us all. The Minister of State did a great job in acknowledging the wonderful literary and historical heritage of the institution we are discussing. He acknowledged that it was the first state-subsidised theatre in the world throughout a period of our history when there were so many other competing demands on our resources and limited revenue. Bold and courageous vision was shown by the people who were involved in it at that time and we owe it to them to ensure that vision continues in the next stage of the Abbey's future.
I listened with great interest to what the Minister of State said but it is a case of Hamlet without the prince because some of the most important questions people have on this project were not answered in his contribution. I will deal with some of those questions shortly while also reflecting on the Minister of State's contribution.
I have much personal fondness for and attachment to the Abbey Theatre. I suspect that, like many other people, my first introduction to the theatre was going to the Abbey Theatre with my family as a young boy and watching those great mysterious figures created by Brian Friel and Chekhov entertain people and describe other worlds to them. That gave many people the gift of appreciating the theatre, and it is incumbent on us to get these decisions right because we will live with the consequences of them for many years to come.
I am glad the Minster of State touched upon the announcement made today by the Dublin Docklands Development Authority. It is a very exciting plan. I am fortunate to have both the Abbey Theatre and the docklands in my constituency. To see the Dublin Docklands Development Authority come forward with a €4.5 billion exciting, innovative plan, given the times we are in, is the clarity and leadership we need. It is wonderful to see this happening and to see Paul Moloney taking the lead on this.
In such a climate and environment, we cannot accept that everything is fixed. I wish to reiterate the argument regarding the future location of the theatre as there are two points which must be considered in any discussion. I believe there is still an overwhelming argument for locating it on the site at the top of O'Connell Street. I am aware this suggestion has been made many times by my predecessors but two points have changed when discussing O'Connell Street. First, there are now very exciting plans — which I hope will happen — regarding the transport links for O'Connell Street and in particular for the upper end of O'Connell Street. Metro north will have a metro stop on Parnell Square and there will be a Luas interchange on O'Connell Street. It is a fact that the public transport linkages planned for that end of O'Connell Street will be ahead of developments in the docklands.
Second, since these discussions were last taking place there is now movement on the planning future for the top end of O'Connell Street. A developer has lodged what in many ways is a progressive planning vision for that end of the street. Given that our predecessors had the insight and courage to establish a State-subsidised theatre, I would like to see the State step in and offer a vision for all of Dublin and not just for the docklands. Part of this vision should be to have a cultural institution of which we are all proud, regardless of whether or not we are theatregoers, accessible on the main street of our capital. This is so pressing that we should never lose any opportunity to raise and debate the issue, particularly when so many other things are being changed.
The Minister of State has acknowledged the process taking place but the most important question which has not been answered is when will the Abbey be open. If the Minister of State's current plans are to be implemented, can he clarify to the House today when this will happen? This is the most important piece of information needed and it is regrettable that this information is lacking in the Minister of State's opening statement.
I refer to the future of the Peacock Theatre which is situated beside the Abbey Theatre and is part of the Abbey institution. The Peacock Theatre has been at the forefront in looking after young, new and diverse playwrights. When I had the time I used to enjoy going to see the Saturday matinee performances when the theatre would introduce new playwrights and give them a chance to establish themselves and become known. It is vital to recognise we are not just talking about the Abbey Theatre, which looks after the work of the great and proud names the nation has been lucky to have produced but also we must find some way to ensure there is a channel for diverse new writers which the Peacock has offered so many times in the past.
It is vital to address the point regarding diversity on the board of the Abbey Theatre. Regrettably in the past there have been some difficult and unfortunate developments regarding the finances of the theatre. My hope is that this has all been resolved. As the Government looks at the management structure of the theatre in a new location — which I still hope will be in O'Connell Street but I am aware this might not be the case — I suggest this could be an opportunity to revisit the financial and management structures of the Abbey Theatre in order to categorically assure ourselves that when the organisation is lucky enough to be in a wonderful location which I hope we can all visit, it will have the structures and experience to make the very best of the opportunity it will be given.
My final point is indirectly related to the location of the Abbey Theatre. I have been very impressed by and proud to see the new theatres and cultural institutions dotted all around the country, including the Draíocht theatre in Blanchardstown with which I am most familiar. These institutions have been at the vanguard of introducing theatre and new forms of art to communities that otherwise would not have the opportunity to experience them. I would love to see the Abbey Theatre and its company become involved in this area. The theatre is our national theatre both in terms of where it is located — which is what we are discussing today — but also in terms of what it should do for the country as a whole and not just for those lucky enough to live near it or those lucky enough to be able to afford to travel to it.
The Minister of State has already acknowledged the national importance of the Abbey and I hope he will take this opportunity to state that given the developments that have taken place in O'Connell Street and the northside of Dublin, he will examine the possibility of ensuring this wonderful institution can be more centrally embedded in our capital city and take this opportunity to discuss the future of the Peacock Theatre and what can be done to ensure the Abbey flourishes in all the towns of our country so that everybody has the opportunity to experience what so many of us have been able to experience.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Martin Mansergh, to the House and to wish him well in his new and very responsible position as Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works. He is the person who will be responsible for much of the Government investment during the years ahead. I have no doubt that his stewardship will not be found wanting in any way because his practical experience as adviser to various Taoisigh will stand to him when it comes to dealing with the problems associated with being in the OPW.
The Minister of State outlined the proud history of the Abbey Theatre as the National Theatre. Its establishment was the first move in the attempt to bury political divisions and it made a significant contribution in that regard. It also provided the first opportunity for some of our greatest people such as Synge and O'Casey and later, John B. Keane and others, who have made significant contributions to theatre in this country. I remember the rural halls where plays were performed on Sunday nights during Lent. These were the plays which had been performed previously in the Abbey Theatre and they were performed by people in our own community. We all have fond memories of those performances, similar to Senator Donohoe's memories of the Peacock Theatre. Some of these local people were excellent actors but they were amateurs who rather than act professionally wanted to remain as amateurs and they regarded acting as a hobby. They made a significant contribution to the community.
Senator Donohoe referred to the number of small new theatres dotted around the country in the most unusual places. Some of them are making a significant contribution to the cultural life of the areas in which they are located. Some people may not believe this but County Leitrim with a population of 30,000 has three theatres, one in Carrickallen, one in Carrick-on-Shannon and one in Manorhamilton. Their productions are an asset to their local communities and they become focal points for the community and for those who want to be involved in cultural and arts events.
I can understand Senator Donohoe's preference for moving the Abbey to the top of O'Connell Street rather than to the designated site in the docklands. There is a certain merit in his suggestion. However if we go looking for a site at the top of O'Connell Street, our successors in 20 years' time will be still talking about it. The one advantage for the Abbey now is that a designated site is available for the project. Let us ensure this building is so well designed that it will be on every postcard and every representation of Dublin. Like the Sydney Opera House, it should attract international respect as a feature of the community. Some people might argue that a time limit should be placed on this project but time limits are dangerous. If it runs one day over time somebody will be shouting "You're late", but it is more important that the project should be right.
Some 15 different groups are involved in examining the design project, which will provide a wealth of opportunity to the assessment board. It will prove that whoever wins this competition will have designed what is accepted by everybody as being the best symbol for this city.
We must also ensure that the funding is properly managed because we saw slight problems regarding funding for the Abbey over the years. In future, the board must take a lot of responsibility for how the theatre is run. In saying that, I am not being critical of previous Abbey boards. No one wishes to see a situation, which developed before, where questions are raised. People of the highest integrity were challenged for the wrong reasons and in some cases for personal reasons. We want to ensure that does not happen again.
We should examine whether we can widen the Abbey's remit to give young people the opportunity to become involved in the theatre. The list of those who progressed through the Abbey and made it onto the world stage is phenomenal. The international success of former Abbey actors is acknowledged and appreciated by everyone. I hope that opportunities will be given to young people, especially those now leaving various colleges, to enable them to move further up in the acting world. I also hope the Abbey will have a direct policy of giving opportunities to emerging playwrights. It might not be any harm to include in any future control parameters, the commissioning of a minimum of ten new plays per year. That figure may sound high, but if one can get ten new playwrights contributing work to the Abbey one would be doing exceptionally well. New playwrights need to reach the big stage in order to establish a national reputation. In Ireland, the biggest stage is the Abbey's.
I encourage the Minister of State to complete this project as quickly as possible. If feasible, time limits should be set for the submission of project plans. When one design is finally accepted, a further time limit should be put on its completion. Those in charge of PPPs know that the sooner they get the doors open, the sooner they begin to get some return on their investment. That aspect is imperative, so I ask the Minister of State to take that course.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, to the House. It is appropriate to have these statements on the Abbey Theatre's move. I agree with the viewpoint that the Abbey would be better situated in the centre of Dublin, but I have great sympathy for the viewpoint of the Minister of State and his Department. I happen to know that when a site was selected in Parnell Square not that long ago, it was made impossible for the Department to buy the required site extension. I am fearful of making any move away from what has been decided on the docklands site, although I would have preferred a city centre site. I still believe Dublin city centre could do with another theatre at this time.
A number of points raised in this discussion are worth responding to, particularly the issue of funding. While previous speakers did not say otherwise, I would like to put firmly on record the fact that the Abbey's finances have been put in order by the current board.
Yes.
Those finances are substantial and sound, which is an accepted, acknowledged and audited fact. It is also recognised that the theatre is totally dependent on the State and the Arts Council, but its finances are in order.
Where do we go next? I appreciate the points made by the Minister of State and I agree with him on the system of selecting the best design. I am fearful, however, that in the current climate it could prove to be another disaster for the northside, like metro north, if for some reason the Government decided to pull back from this proposal. This is where we can learn from our past. The Minister of State will, no doubt, be aware that when the current Abbey was being designed by the architect, Michael Scott, there was an approved and agreed design, which unfortunately coincided with a downturn in the economy. Consequently, the plans for the Abbey were changed and it became a compromise. They aimed to make it a theatre and conference centre but it turned out to be a half-way house. It was a very bad design which has eventually had to be changed completely. It is a tribute to the current board that it is now being redesigned with a change in the seat layout so that it is now far more comfortable than it ever was. The lesson to be learned is that, while we made a mistake the last time — to coin a phrase — let us not disgrace ourselves again in this particular case. We should learn from the last time and get it right now. The Minister of State's job, with responsibility for the arts, will be to fight to protect that part of the Government's policy and plans for the future.
Previous speakers referred to new writing and the Abbey does accept such writing. The reason it can never be a commercial theatre like the Gate is precisely because it is a showcase for new talent, including writing which is hard to get staged. That point inadvertently arose in the last speaker's contribution. John B. Keane was kept out of the Abbey until he was a major national figure.
Yes.
I discussed this matter with him on many occasions. The fact that he did not get his opportunity in the Abbey during those years was something that hurt him so often and for so long. As a number of speakers have suggested, the Abbey must be the place for new writing. We should support, acknowledge and appreciate what it has to do. While the Abbey Theatre is not there to make money, its finances must be well handled. It must mind the pennies and get value for money; there can be no pulling back from that. If we accept the suggestion of taking a certain amount of new writing talent in the course of a year, we must be able to pay the price for that because not all those plays will be successful. We must deal with the fact that some of them may play to empty houses.
It should be recognised that the Abbey does commission new material from young playwrights, such as Marina Carr, Colm Tóbín and, more recently, Conor McPherson. Such material has been encouraged by the Abbey, while other commercial theatres could not take the risk involved.
The Abbey is there to inspire us in whatever way through its engagement with theatre-goers. It is there to comment on society and to entertain us also. The Abbey's current Chekhov play, "Three Sisters", is a commentary on society today. We need to see that it is there to develop for society. It is not commercial. It is a showcase for new Irish talent. It is there to nurture new writing and creativity, to give space to new playwrights, and to expose the rest of us to the best that is happening in Irish creative theatre. In that sense, it also needs to go even beyond new writing to the area of experiment.
I recall a time not that many years ago when there were two great pieces on in the Abbey and in the Peacock, one a well-known Leitrim writer's only play and the other by a well-known Dublin writer about the heroin society. Both plays were destroyed by the critics. I thought they gave a complete and supportive view of Irish society at the time. John McGahern was so hurt by it he never wrote another play. It was panned and written-off by the Sunday Independent of all newspapers. It was described as not being pure theatre and being melodramatic. Melodramatic was exactly the reason given for the non-acceptance of John B. Keane’s plays all his life. I remember saying to John McGahern that they said the same to John B. Keane. At least the Abbey gave John McGahern the opportunity to write a play, which I believe will find its place again. It also gave Dermot Bolger the opportunity to produce a piece of theatre which showed the low-life of Dublin drug society around Finglas, as it was at the time, and other things. This was a commentary on Irish life.
The last play to finish in the Peacock in recent times was a commentary on public life and corruption in public life. It does not matter when it was written. Shakespeare can be produced today and be a comment on today's life if it is produced in a particular way.
All in all, I welcome the points made by the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh. This is an important debate. I wish him well in his Ministry and also in developing the Abbey as quickly and as effectively as possible.
I wish to share my time with Senator Cassidy.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, and wish him well in his new brief. I sat beside him for a few years and it is nice to see him back in the House in his position to debate this subject.
I grew up with the Abbey Theatre in so far as when it was adjacent to Leinster House where my father was, I, as a child, used be brought there. He loved the theatre, and as a young child I found myself many times being at the theatre with him. Therefore, I have very fond memories of the old Abbey Theatre.
I am delighted to make a contribution to the debate on how we best bring it forward and relocate it. I was disappointed when I realised it was going to George's Dock. I had looked at the other options too and thought ideally it would have been great if it had been left where it was if that was possible because of the access to O'Connell Street. I thought the Carlton cinema area of O'Connell Street would have been an ideal location as well. I go regularly to the Gate and it would have been nice if they had been able to complement one another. Parnell Square was also an option. Having studied the Minister of State's speech, I realise that this site is the only one that they can fast-track and get on with, and that is what we must look at.
It must be a significant landmark, not alone for our city but for the country as a whole. I am glad an international competition was held to ensure the best specifications, design and acoustics. I visit the Abbey and I am aware the space is inadequate. The foyer is crowded and usually at the beginning of a night one cannot move. It is important for the national theatre that we would take all those aspects into account.
I listened to some of the other speakers. It is so important that we encourage young talent and reflect society in Ireland. Education should play a part in stimulating interest in young artists and how best we can bring it all together. We have a country of young playwrights and people who are interested in theatre and who have the personality to reflect society. The Abbey should reflect that kind of thinking.
No doubt the docklands site is the one we must go with, but the transport infrastructure must be put in place. I do not like it down there. It must improve considerably. As it stands, I would have to take a taxi.
It might be cheaper to buy a flat down there.
I am concerned about the lack of transport infrastructure and restaurants. People who are out for an evening like to have all that infrastructure in the area. Otherwise it would be a bad site.
I welcome the debate. We need a landmark, a place to which we can all look in the future, in which our schools and young educated people will be able to reflect their interest, and which reflects Dublin's growing reputation as a global capital of culture and creativity. I hope the future development of the Abbey Theatre will reflect all those. It is important we get it right. We have a golden opportunity and I am pleased the Minister of State will be one of the key people steering it ahead.
I, too, congratulate Deputy Martin Mansergh on his appointment as Minister of State in charge of the Office of Public Works. I look forward to working alongside him.
A landmark cultural centre is what we want for the Abbey Theatre. I agree with fellow Senators that the best place for it by a mile is O'Connell Street. Everyone in Ireland knows how to get to O'Connell Street and the people feel comfortable coming there. One can mention all the other grandiose places in Dublin and people will tell you that they must go to them because they sound nice, but they never go because we all are creatures of habit.
The number one location must be O'Connell Street and the Government owes it to the Parnell Square area, where very little, except the Hugh Lane Gallery, has been built over the past 50 years. I recall that when Government brought in a capital allowance scheme for Parnell Square, not one block was put on top of another in Parnell Square East during that seven year period. Something serious must be done.
Given that we will have the transport question answered at both ends of O'Connell Street, and if it is at all possible, surely the €1.25 billion project being discussed for the Carlton cinema site on O'Connell Street must include a cultural centre. Why not have the Abbey Theatre located there? We want the likes of an Albert Hall or Sydney Opera House in O'Connell Street. We do not want to hide it in any old place in Ireland. We want to have somewhere of which we can be proud.
Given my considerable experience in the entertainment world, the most important part of the Minister of State's speech was when he said a theatre consultant and acoustic consultant have been appointed to the team. How many magnificent projects have been a disaster when it comes to the control of sound because an acoustic consultant was not appointed initially? I congratulate everyone associated with it. We could not have better people than the Office of Public Works handling the project.
The proposal to put it anywhere other than O'Connell Street is not giving the best opportunity. I know what happened in some of the other areas in which those who owned the establishments got greedy, but surely this can become part of the planning process before Dublin City Council. Dublin City Council has some of the most committed and dedicated people in the world working for it. They are doing a magnificent job in the interests of the people of Ireland and the capital city.
As someone from Castlepollard, I acknowledge the contribution of the Pakenham family to the Gate Theatre, especially the late Edward Pakenham and his wife. I was born next door to their estate and the Minister of State knows of this family. I know what the family did for the Gate Theatre in very difficulties times. They collected pennies to keep the theatre open.
Much has been done to keep the culture experiences of the Abbey Theatre, the Gate Theatre and the Peacock Theatre alive. People have worked day and night to keep the doors open. This is a tremendous challenge and a great opportunity and we have the right Minister of State in the right place and at the right time.
I am glad of the opportunity to speak and welcome the Minister of State. I agree with many of the other speakers that the Abbey Theatre has a legacy which must be honoured with the building of a fitting and tasteful structure capable of housing the quality productions we have come to expect from the theatre. The Minister told us earlier this month that the Government is now committed to building at George's Dock and that the new theatre will be a public private partnership, PPP.
It is essential the choice for the redevelopment of Ireland's national theatre is suitable and that the location is appropriate for a proper theatre facility. It must reflect the importance of theatre and the role it plays in Irish culture. The Abbey Theatre must be the flagship theatre for the country.
I am not convinced the location is wrong. I do not believe it is necessary to have the Abbey Theatre in the city centre. Reference was made earlier to the Sydney Opera House which is not on Oxford Street, Sydney, but in Beenelong Point. The Albert Hall is not on Oxford Street, London, but in Kensington.
The site must be able to cater for the demand of people going to it. It needs good transport links and to be accessible and well signposted. Its current location is beside a Luas stop and many buses pass by. As long as similar facilities are provided in George's Dock, I do not see a huge problem. We expect to see improved transport links to Spencer Dock, which is close by, and this will help. Transport links can be included as a condition of planning approval. I will push for that but I do not have a huge problem with the location.
I agree with the former Minister, the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy John O'Donoghue, who spoke about the issue a couple of years ago. When he was Minister he said the facility should be a modern theatre complex with up to three stages — a main stage and two similar smaller stages — which, in effect, would be similar to the existing situation with the adjoining Peacock Theatre and that this would help nurture the rapidly growing number of small theatres in the Dublin region and allow them access to this stage. Since the unfortunate closure of Andrews Lane Theatre, access to smaller stages has become more difficult. Hopefully, the redevelopment will help to fill that void.
The new Abbey Theatre needs to be able to cater for mainstream theatre productions and to house new and innovate sets and lighting designs. If it does that, it will go a long way towards meeting the needs of the city.
I refer to the plans for the old Abbey Theatre site. Will it be sold off? If so, does the Government have a specification for what the site should contain or will it simply be sold off whereby the market will decide? The plan for the new site is a little open-ended. The Minister of State said it will be a PPP and that it will be a design, build and maintain. Who will own the theatre? Will there be any stipulations in the tender documents as to whether potential developers will have to hand back the site after a minimum period of time? Will it be left to developers to come up with ideas on it?
We need to see some risk transferred. The whole propose of a PPP is to transfer risk to the private sector. We could do that by doing design and build. I am not convinced about the maintenance aspect. We have seen PPP failures here in the past, including the recent public housing one. I worked on a PPP in the UK, Metronet, which folded during work on the London underground. I am not convinced this is the way forward and we need to be sure it is clearly thought out before we go down this route. It cannot be an excuse to remove expenditure from the capital budget and transfer it to ongoing operating costs. I would appreciate hearing the Minister of State's comments in that regard.
I am very excited about the new theatre and hope the Government engages in this redevelopment with proper foresight and planning. I look forward to seeing a new Abbey Theatre opening in the next few years.
I welcome this debate which Senators requested for a number of reasons, including the uncertainty in regard to the site, which has been reflected here. The Minister of State said the decision has now been taken. Will he clarify that because there is uncertainty in the media and among Abbey Theatre staff? If there is uncertainty about the site, there are all sorts of implications. However, if the decision has been taken, let us tell everyone and plan appropriately for it rather than talk about O'Connell Street, what might have been the best site, and about the fact O'Connell Street needs a theatre of the standing of the Abbey Theatre.
We asked for a debate because we need to discuss the site and to give the Government our support for this flagship cultural project, which all Senators fully support. Even in these difficult economic times, we want to see this development. The project has great potential. However, I wish to raise some concerns raised by my colleague, Deputy Olivia Mitchell, during the week. I am concerned about the timeframe and about the fact three Ministers have been involved in this project to date, namely, the Ceann Comhairle, Deputy John O'Donoghue, Deputy Séamus Brennan and the Minister, Deputy Martin Cullen. It was also in the 2002 programme for Government. There has been a slow erratic approach to this project and perhaps the Minister of State will explain why that has been the case. What are the barriers and the problems?
We face a new economic situation and there are new tendering rules for the refurbishment of this House. Will these new rules apply to the tendering process for the Abbey Theatre? If so, will that cause further delay? Will the Minister of State make every effort to ensure this international competition, which is an excellent idea and which was part of the prerequisite for the new site, does not mean a delay of several years? He referred to the results of the international competition in some years' time. Was he suggesting the competition will take several years? I would be very concerned if that was the case.
The previous speaker spoke about PPPs, which are running into difficulty. What is the thinking on the PPP for this new development? Will the Minister of State reassure us in respect of those questions and on the funding side? It is really about a decision on funding and timeframe for delivery. That is what everybody involved in the arts cares about as far as the Abbey Theatre site is concerned.
If the site of the theatre is to be in the docklands, there is huge potential there. All one needs to do is to look at the South Bank in London to see the range of cultural institutions brought together there. Although we are focusing on the Abbey Theatre and a potentially wonderful new building which would meet all its needs, we should be also aware of the potential for the docklands site to become a hub for cultural development, whether for film or music. Hopefully, this possibility could be kept in mind for the site in better economic times and when the economy starts to grow again.
I wish to see the development of further links between the Abbey Theatre and communities, especially with schools. I have had direct experience of links between the Abbey and schools through my son, who is an actor. It is critical that there is engagement between the theatre and artistic young people. For too long our education system has not given artistic and creative people opportunities to develop or bring out their talents. Thankfully this has begun to change in recent times with changes in school curricula and the development of new theatres and community arts groups. We have seen more potential and opportunity offered to young people who show a significant interest in the arts in Ireland.
We have seen tremendous talent in acting, music and the whole range of artistic endeavours of which we can be very proud. The Abbey has played a significant role in fostering this talent. I wish to see the Abbey get the necessary resources and the opportunity to develop in the years ahead. It is clear some of our theatres have difficulty surviving at present. While we are delighted to have such a range of theatres in the suburbs of Dublin and throughout the country, many are having difficulties, including financial difficulties. As previous speakers have said, it is clear the Abbey will need ongoing support from Government and the Arts Council.
The Minister of State, Deputy Mansergh, has support across the House for this project. We have questions about the timeframe and delivery along with some key questions about the public private partnership. However, this is a project everybody supports and I wish the Minister of State the best of luck in bringing this project to fruition. However, I urge him to be as transparent as possible regarding the design competitions and any barriers he many be facing in the delivery of this project.
I thank Senators Paschal Donohoe, John Ellis, Joe O'Toole, Ann Ormonde, Donie Cassidy, Dominic Hannigan, Frances Fitzgerald and all Senators for their contributions in what has been a very good debate. I am delighted the matter has been subject to a proper debate. Several Senators, especially Senator Hannigan, paid tribute to the role and importance of the Abbey and I do not believe anybody here questions those sentiments.
On the question of the proposed location, I repeat that the choice of location is a question that is now settled. One can naturally debate what might have been. There were difficulties with the Carlton site because of the value of property on O'Connell Street and there would, probably, only have been a narrow entrance through the back of the site. There would have been difficulties and constraints in creating the type of landmark building there that was mooted. There would also have been financial and economic considerations. Sometimes the ideal is the enemy of the good and, in any case, the decision has been made.
A point was made about transport. One consideration for theatres throughout the world is a preference for not having an underground system nearby, or noisy trams rumbling just outside the door, as they can be heard inside during the performance. The Luas is being constructed very close to, but not right on top of, the theatre site at George's Dock and it will be the ideal distance from it. There is also a train terminal there as well, so the new site will be very accessible.
The Peacock Theatre will, of course, be alongside the Abbey in the new building and there is no question of the new theatre being reduced to one performance space. I accept the Peacock provides scope for young writers and for more experimental writing. Along with playwrights, authors, artists and politicians, I have been panned by the Sunday Independent and, I daresay, many Senators here have been as well, but we must get beyond that.
With regard to timing, each stage of the process, including the invitation to tender stage, will have a timeframe. It is difficult to say exactly but I and, I am sure others, hope to see the project completed in some years' time. The process would take a minimum number of years in any case. As with the National Concert Hall these projects cannot be delivered overnight.
Senator Fitzgerald mentioned the number of Ministers involved and it reminds me of Horace's tag, Ars longa, vita brevis. Art endures, but life — especially political life — is short. There will, probably, be more than one senior and junior Minister involved before the new Abbey opens its doors. Within limits, the reason the site was chosen was to get on with the project, but at the same time it is important to get it right rather than rush it, because it will be there for a long time.
I take Senator Ellis's point about the importance of a spread of theatres throughout the country. There are several in County Tipperary as in County Leitrim and they make a significant contribution to the local area. There are many theatre groups in towns, but there are also performances that tour and it would be agreeable if this continued. In the old days, when the country was much poorer than now, companies often toured. Nowadays, this does not seem to happen which is a pity, especially with the availability of venues. There are some exceptions, for example the Opera Theatre Company tours throughout the country.
Regarding public transport, there seems to be no difficulty providing early morning trains and so on into Dublin, starting from their destination at 5.30 a.m. However, there seems to be greater difficulty providing public transport out of Dublin late at night. It would be easier for those living some distance from the capital, who do not necessarily want to drive long distances, to use the facilities available if late night public transport was provided.
The old Abbey site will of course be sold. No doubt it will be pretty valuable, depending on the state of the property market at the time of sale. This will help finance the project.
The new Abbey will be in State ownership, there is no doubt about that. The public private partnership will relate to the building and maintenance but not to the ownership of the theatre. The issue of governance was raised and as one of the Senators pointed out, it is mainly an issue of the past that has now been substantially rectified. I thank Senators for their support. We all want to see the project come to fruition. I do not have a problem with cultural facilities being spread in different locations around the city. The Gate Theatre, which is a very fine theatre, is just around the corner from O'Connell Street. It does not seem to me to be absolutely essential for the Abbey Theatre to be practically opposite it. Not all of us are familiar with the new part of the city that is being developed along the docks. I do not think people will have difficulty finding the new Abbey Theatre, particularly if it is close to a Luas stop. I would like people to be encouraged to travel to the new district of Dublin to get familiar with it. When I passed through the area in question yesterday, there did not seem to be any shortage of restaurants there. Senator Norris wrote to me about the evils of speculators and their effect on theatre sites, etc. If we bring theatre and art to the financial world, perhaps that will help to make a difference.
It will not do any harm.
Beware of the barbarians.